# Survival > Bushcraft Medicine >  A Couple of Medical Tidbits

## ronjnk

As some of you know, our situation is such that we can't just toddle off to the doctor or dentist when we have a medical problem. As it so happens, I've been wrestling with a gum infection for the last 10 days or so. I had a bulge on my gum big enough to start pushing my cheek out a bit. Not good!

I tried a number of things such as herbal washes, oil of cloves, Anbesol, salt water rinses and herbal compresses directly on the site. We always have fresh antibiotics but they were used for another issue months ago. Because of our remote homesteading and inaccessibility, we have prescription meds on hand just in case they are needed. Every few years, we get new prescriptions filled. But, I rarely throw the old medications away. You never know in desperation when something might come in handy. 

My antibiotic of choice was Penicillin VK of 2009 vintage. The other thing I did that I believe really helped was to take 1/2 teaspoon SEA salt mixed with 1/2 teaspoon of baking SODA. Add a couple drops of water, just enough to bind it all and make a thick paste. Take a wad of that mix and put it on a cotton ball and shove that ball up on the gum right on the bulge. I left it in place as long as I could. After the second treatment, I had a sensation of something letting loose in there. Although the bulge and discomfort did not diminish at that moment, I had the feeling it helped my situation so that will be a trick I will use if I ever have that problem again.

I am back to normal. The combination of old 2009 antibiotics, which as long as stored properly, still has efficacy, and my salt/soda paste treatment has got me healthy again. I'm sure everybody knows this but take the entire antibiotic regimen regardless of being cured. Don't try to save some antibiotic for the next time. Take the complete prescription until done.

What a relief! The patient will live.

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## hunter63

I have used the salt rinse....and also brush with the baking soda for time to time......but never together....
Glad it helped.

I bad about throwing away meds......as well.
But something is better than nothing....
Bith DW and I take several every day....and seems a real PITA getting them filled sometimes...whem we are going to be out of town....and the script calls for a refill next week....Sheesh?

We would be screwed in that remote location.

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## ronjnk

That's what we figure... something is better than nothing.

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## natertot

I am glad that all worked out for you.

Just a few words worth mentioning for others who may be reading this. Drugs in pill form that do not require refrigeration do not actually expire, in that they will do harm to you. However, their potency (which makes them effective) is not guaranteed after the expiration date and does gradually degrade over time. Their are many studies available via Google searching to determine the rate that they degrade. These tests (and generally a good idea) are typically done when the drugs are in the original container stored in ideal conditions, such as avoiding high heat, extreme cold, and low humidity. Especially with antibiotics, one must make sure sufficient amounts are taken to prevent antibiotic resistant infections, but at the same time one doesn't want to overdose.

Liquids and drugs requiring refrigeration are much more temperamental. They are truly best to be discarded and replaced at time of expiration.

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## ronjnk

Hi Natertot,
Yes, I guess I could have done a better job of bringing that information out. I knew old drugs were still safe which is why we don't discard them. I wanted people to know my 7 year old penicillin was fine. At least it was potent enough to do the job. Thanks for the follow up information. My point of writing the post was that old drugs stored properly, can still be valuable. You did a better job of defining the issue. For sure on any liquid drug or prescription needing refrigeration, I wouldn't take a chance on it unless I talked to a pharmacist.

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## Rick

Then again, your antibiotic may have been useless and the amount of time your endured your problem was enough for your immune system to resolve the issue. Who knows? I, too, am glad you are better. Not having access to medical care is but one of the reason I don't live off grid. I am trying to figure out if my current medical insurance will allow my PCP to move in with me so he's on call 24/7.

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## hunter63

Back when, packing for extended hunting trips....I would ask my family Dr. for scripts for:

Pain killer....get off mountain or paddle out pain meds....Usually Tylenol 3's or similar......5 pills
Antibiotic ...Penicillin or similar.......5 pills
Benadryl....5 pills....
He would usually ask me to come in for a quickie physical ....and fill it, his idea for the 5 pills only.

Now if I ask,.... I'm told I don't "need" these and how dangerous self medication is, ....the need for complete blood work, complete physical, several  cardio tests.......and that is just the start....
I guess they think I gonna sell my BP, pee pills and gout meds on the street......What a PITA.

I have purchased some meds off the interwebs.....but is covered by Medicare and Medicaid.....

Yeah I know....And have listened to all the warnings....Don't use them anym
Still get calls from George Washington, with a heavy accent and noisy phone center, reminding me of the special for Viagra...this month.

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## natertot

Hey Ron- I wasn't trying to undercut your experience. I know a lot of people read these threads, including people who stumble across them by accident from a Google search. (That is actually how I discovered this place myself!) I just like to put information out there that can give people a good understanding of what they are doing so that they are safe. Drugs can be a very tricky thing and every time you put them in your body, you are playing chemistry. The purpose of drugs is to restore homeostasis and if not careful, you can disrupt homeostasis even more. A tight fine line that must be walked if one self medicates and one should only use reliable sources of information when making these decisions. If using internet, look for information from reputable sources like the FDA, National Institute of Health, Mayo Clinic, WHO, and universities with strong reputations in the medical field. I would also look at information from multiple reputable sources, making sure they are drawing the same (or at least similar) conclusion.

Hunter - I understand your reasoning for keeping those small amounts of stuff on hand. Unfortunately, especially if it falls onto an insurance claim, docs and nurse practitioners cannot give a script unless it falls under the guidelines of necessary treatment. Not saying it is right or wrong, but especially with many drug epidemics, health care professionals do not want to lose their license. They aren't easy to get in the first place!

I hate to say it, but people do sell their meds on the street. Not just narcotics, but BP, gout, antibiotics, and even ointments. Many people cannot afford to see a doc, so someone with insurance will see the doc, get what the other person needs, and then trade the stuff for street drugs, sex, other black market goods, and of course cash is always accepted so that rent or car payments can be made. Happens all the time. Not saying you are doing it, but once again, health care professionals have the gov't watching them and they don't want their name to show up on a drug report for suspected drug activities.

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## Rick

Wait! What? You can trade drugs for sex?! I'll be back. I have to check my medicine cabinet. Hang on a minute. That's not sex with you is it.  :Sneaky2:

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## hunter63

Yeah, Nate I get it....
The professional  line.....CYA for license ...prudent and right thing to do.....In the prefect world
BUT
Now put your self in Ron place....
In the boonies, with a problem......no chance to get help easily, if at all...Thats what is considered a SHTF.......mini addition, but still dangerous.....
Mind set of someone that chooses to live far off the grid and away from Dr.'s emergency rooms and hospitals may differ from those in different circumstances.

You can't always do the proper thing.....Much of the world doesn't even have clean water........

BUT... He does happen to have old, questionable meds and "old wives/natural cure"....And it hurts like helk....

I say go for it......Called Surviving.....And thank for posting.
Of course Common sense (not so common sometimes) should enter into it.
JMHO

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## ronjnk

Wow... Good Morning, I have to catch up here. 

Thanks Rick... Feeling fine. I'm a firm believer in the body healing itself over time as a general rule. Sometimes it needs a kick to get over the hump and I think the antibiotics did help in that respect. 

Hunter... always smart to have some prescriptions with you when setting out on any adventure whether hunting or other escapade where access to medical care might be questionable or delayed. It doesn't mean they get used but it's another tool in the kit that may come in handy. 

Natertot... No problem. I never took your feedback as undercutting in any way. I have the same philosophy of trying to put information out since we don't know who will stumble upon the thread. Your follow up information clarified my text in a better way and I thank you for that.

Thanks for all the good banter. Don' throw those old drugs out and give the seasalt/baking soda a try on any inflamed, infected bulging, distended, swollen protuberance. I think that about covers it.  :Smile:

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## randyt

can we talk about fish antibiotics? LOL

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## natertot

> That's not sex with you is it.


Hahahaha! Don't you wish??!!!  :Tt2: 


Hunter - I don't disagree with you. As a fellow outdoors guy, having a few things on hand "just in case" until I can get to help or I can get help to me would be a good idea. Common sense, yeah, find a doctor that has one. I find that doctors are usually very intelligent (book smart) but that their ability to read people is not their strong suit. I think that is why they fall on the CYA philosophy.

Randy - What do you want to talk about regarding fish antibiotics?

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## randyt

Nothing, I've seen a few conversations on fish antibiotics go sideways that's all.

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## crashdive123

Fish antibiotics?  What could possibly go wrong?



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## randyt

I think that was more of a nuclear incident than fish mox

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## ronjnk

I just proved my properly stored antibiotic was still potent after 7 years so unless I start growing gills, I'll stick with the stuff made for humans. I have not researched this at all so I'm winging it, but my guess would be that animal and fish antibiotics may not have the purity and regulatory oversight to, in theory, insure a consistent, pure and safe product to be consumed by humans.

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## Old GI

Most meds are acceptable after expiration, they just reduce potency somewhat.

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## crashdive123

Here's some good info on meds and expiration dates.  http://www.emedexpert.com/tips/expired-meds.shtml

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## natertot

> I just proved my properly stored antibiotic was still potent after 7 years so unless I start growing gills, I'll stick with the stuff made for humans. I have not researched this at all so I'm winging it, but my guess would be that animal and fish antibiotics may not have the purity and regulatory oversight to, in theory, insure a consistent, pure and safe product to be consumed by humans.


I haven't looked into fish antibiotics. With animal drugs, for the most part they are the same but there are of course of few "heads up". Yes, they are less "regulated" but they are fairly consistent because the size of many animals are rather small making less room for error.

1) Make sure that the drug content is the same drug (as in chemical composition) as the human drug. Some animal drugs are slightly altered for the use in animals or for a particular animal. 

2) Every drug has "fillers" which is stuff besides the drug itself. These may be to give the drug a form (pill, capsule, etc), act as a preservative, give flavoring, and more. Make sure that the drug does not contain fillers harmful to humans.

3) Make sure that the drug does not contain anything for which you are allergic.

4) Check dosage amounts and cut/pour/inject an amount that would be appropriate for a human/human size. For example, the drug for a 20lb dog won't do much for a 250lb guy. Find out how much a 250lb guy should have and take as many "dog doses" to equate the human dose. Same thing for drugs intended for horses and cattle. Drugs intended for a 2000lb beast will drop a 250lb guy. Reduce the dose appropriately.

Now, as an added disclaimer: Taking animal drugs is NOT something I would do (unless the world has completely suffered a zombie apocalypse and there is not other choice). I really cannot see a reason to do so, nor have I tried it. I am just basing this on a few classes I took in college. I do not recommend that anyone try it. If you do, I assume no liability and recommend you have 911 on speed dial, and the number to poison control. If you take any, hold the drugs in your hand so if you pass out before help arrives they know what you took.

Be safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Rick

Since different antibiotics target different bacteria no one can purchase a single antibiotic and expect it to be effective across the board. Yes, there are some broad spectrum antibiotics but knowing when you use what is why physicians take Pharm 502a, Pharm 504a, Pharm 506a, Pharm 528a, Pharm 550a, etc., etc., etc.,. Self medicating is a tad dumb unless you are with Natertot during the zombie apocalypse and there is no other choice.

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## hunter63

> ..................snip........
> Now, as an added disclaimer: Taking animal drugs is NOT something I would do (unless the world has completely suffered a zombie apocalypse and there is not other choice). I really cannot see a reason to do so, nor have I tried it. I am just basing this on a few classes I took in college. I do not recommend that anyone try it. If you do, I assume no liability and recommend you have 911 on speed dial, and the number to poison control. If you take any, hold the drugs in your hand so if you pass out before help arrives they know what you took.
> 
> Be safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Same applies for wild mushrooms.........

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## natertot

Very accurate, Rick. Docs go through so much training and education, I really don't know how they contain it all in one brain. I agree that self medicating (beyond symptomatic relief with OTC meds) is dumb, even if you are with me in the zombie apocalypse and there is no other choice. It would be much better to save a bullet for yourself because all I would be doing is taking an educated guess and then standing back to see what happens. Might end up looking like that guy on the first page of this thread!

Hunter, good thought on the wild mushrooms. Really, not a bad idea for any wild edible. pretty much everything has a poisonous look alike out there.

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## hunter63

DW idea....always says...."Save a piece so I can show the EMT's what you tried ...This Time".

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