# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Gardening >  Scenario: How to survive a nuclear winter

## DaddyOh

An event occurred and the sun's light is reduced 20%, but that 20% is mostly in the red and blue spectrum.  So even though it seems like there is plenty of light out there, nothing will grow for ****.  The world is in a crisis.  Worldwide crops on the vine start to die, and the grocery stores run out of food in just a few weeks. 

So you need to start gardening indoors to feed your family.  You can find plenty of soil or hydroponics, electricity or energy like gas are still available, you grab seeds while you can, but the shortage is grow lights.  You need grow lights and the hardware store is all out.  The government has taken over all factories that can manufacture grow lights so no luck there.  Where do you get grow lights?

I actually stole this from a book I read recently.  I was surprised at the writer's answer.  Post your answers here, or you can cheat and read the book Calizona yourself for the answer.  Let's see if anyone can figure out where they can get a whole lot of grow quality lighting cheap, before their families starve.

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## SlowRide13

At the local tanning salon? But why would you need grow lights with no electricity?

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## Kudos

A Nuclear Winter by definition would result from a major Thermonuclear exchange. It has been speculated that it would last for at least seven years until the clouds of Radioactive particles fell from the skies in sufficient quantity to allow sunlight through again. This Radioactive Fallout would deposit all around the planet contaminating all life both organic and plant life. In addition, many Nuclear Power plants will likely have gone critical and suffered a massive meltdown. Add to that picture the fact that a major Thermonuclear exchange will have destroyed the Power Grid and the Power Generating Plants meaning there would be no means to provide fuel, gas or electricity. 
At this point, the unlucky survivors will be living in a Radioactive environment and becoming sicker by the day with few resources and consuming radioactive food and water with inevitable end results.
I hardly feel that the burning question for them would be "Now, where can I find Grow Lamp Bulbs?" As a discussion, I am sure there are many would like to know what other Lamps could be used, but, you painted an unrealistic set of circumstances.
If you want an idea of what the Aftermath of a Nuclear exchange would be like, watch the Movie "Threads" on Youtube. Even that is watered down to make it palatable.

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## Rick

In a nuclear winter we are referred to as corpses....just saying.

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## Kudos

A nicer term is "Collateral Damage" but it means much the same.

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## cowgirlup

> In a nuclear winter we are referred to as corpses....just saying.


And that why we love Rick..... LOL

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## BENESSE

If you're right with the Lord, you don't give a flying flick about little climate changes like that.
So get busy. :Sneaky2:

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## Wildthang

I'm not sure I would even want to survive a nuclear winter. I think I would just start partying like there was no tomorrow and die with a nuclear hangover :Smartass:

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## Rick

> And that why we love Rick..... LOL




I will make just as lovable a corpse too.  :Yes:

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## BENESSE

Now, there's a thought to wither the imagination.

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## Rick

Why, thank you. I ..... hey, wait a minute.

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## DaddyOh

Actually a nuclear winter is more of an atmospheric condition.  Radiation and nukes are optional.  The tem was coined during the cold war.   We here in America have actually survived a nuclear winter, not long after becoming a nation.  A european volcano put up such a plume that we had snow throughout the upper states in july.  Only lasted one season.

Someone responded that there would be no electricity.  A real survivalist would never say such a thing.

The answer is that most of the grow quality ligting in the world is not used to grow anything.  High pressure sodium and HID lights are commonly used in  commercial lighting.  Your local bank or mall probably has enough to set up a good farm.  Many cities are switching to LED streetlights which have lots of blue growth spectrum.  

An event that diminishes sunlight would otherwise leave the rest of the world intact.  7 billion people got to eat, but if there is no red or blue spectrum then you are dead in 6 months or less.  A couple of volcanos, or an extraorbital impact could cause it.  This is an entirely possible scenario.

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## Rick

Actually a nuclear winter is a very specific thing. The other name for it is atomic winter and it is the direct result of countervalue nuclear war. What you describe in the U.S. is a specific combination of factors termed The Year Without a Summer. It was a combination of volcanic ejecta, low solar activity and the end of the Little Ice Age. I doubt we'll ever see such a combination again. Certainly not in our lifetime. They are steeds of different hues. 

Your answer doesn't explain how you would manufacture electricity on a large enough scale to run those lights.

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## Kudos

In a "Survivalist" situation it is important to plan for not having Electricity and to see the fact that you have power as a bonus that may only last for a while.
These days we all are so dependent upon electricity being available at the throw of a switch and life without it fills most with horror.
I lived in the remote Jungle for some time without power. It can be done but, of course there was no TV or Refrigerator etc. We cooked using Gas or on an open fire and light was either from a 12 volt battery or candles. Sure it was primitive but it was great training and made you appreciate electricity and water flowing from a faucet.
To really make it in a dire situation we have to be ready to get through it without electricity or fuel and mentally break our dependency on it. Even if you have a Generator it is inevitable that sooner or later it will run out of fuel, break or be stolen.
If you can make it at a basic level then any additional "comfort" is a bonus.
But then I suppose it depends on what level of "survivalist" you see yourself as being.

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## Rick

And it depends on what you plan for.

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## SlowRide13

> ...To me, anything above and beyond the "Ten C's" is either a Creature Comfort or a Luxury....


I guess that makes me a thrivalist instead of a survivalist.

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## CNL

I grew up in a "off-grid" lifestyle in which we had no power. and no running water and for me in my earlier years that was just life. It wasn't hard it wasn't harsh it just was they way of things. Now after years of pampered living I look forward to going back to that style of life and it just goes to show that you can adapt if the need is there. Well most can some will just die sitting outside the grocery store waiting for the little neon lite to say "open".

As for the ops first post. Grow lights really are a mute point. In your scenario power world wide would not last long enough to make grow lights a viable solution. Outdoor plants die >> livestock and all wild animals die >> chaos and the complete breakdown of our society and governments follows. Nobody is going to be keeping the lights on for you. You are better off immediately hording all you for foodstuffs and supplies, and hiding as best you can for as long as you can.

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## Rick

Gee whiz. Not sure I want to live in that world. But whatever killed the plants and animals probably killed me so no worry I guess.

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## Kudos

I don't think that people really grasp the magnitude of such an event.

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## Rick

Or a cockroach. They seem to do okay.

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## Kudos

Maybe in the distant future the Cockroach and Rat will become the new intelligent species on this Planet. 
You can only wonder if they would do a worse job than we did.

In the meantime, the good news is that "The Survivalist's Rat-N-Roach Cookbook" is now available on Amazon...... Bon Appetite !!

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## CNL

> Maybe in the distant future the Cockroach and Rat will become the new intelligent species on this Planet. 
> You can only wonder if they would do a worse job than we did.
> 
> In the meantime, the good news is that "The Survivalist's Rat-N-Roach Cookbook" is now available on Amazon...... Bon Appetite !!


I have no doubt the planet would be a healthier place if this did happen, humans are so smart they are stupid.

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## BENESSE

Still amazes me the lengths people would go to to prepare for armaggedon of sorts but ignore the simple life changes that would ensure they survive things that are actually in their power to survive. 
I just don't get it, I really don't.

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## hunter63

So.....even if I knew that a nucular winter was coming.....would be no time to do anything about it at this point.... as most anything that is cultivated need 50- 90 days for harvest anyway........Are you gonna be able to last that long....starting today?

It about 0 degrees today.....so if not prepared for temps, ...shelter/clothing....water in 3 days, food there after......gonna be kinda out of resources.

I'm thinking that I spending my resources to cover,.....storms, (normal) fire, power outage, supply breakdown, sickness, and the stuff I can realistically prepare for.....
A lawn chair and some brewskies will cover anything else.

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## crashdive123

Me thinks too many people are living the dreams of movies and novels and oft ignoring reality.

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## Kudos

It is always good to have an "exit" plan.

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## LowKey

> Another consideration, I will be looking out for places that have lights on and the smells of cooking, wood stoves etc. as will most everyone else...Jus' Sayin'


So are you one of those "BOB and Black Rifle" guys that are going to be marauding the countryside looking for other people's supplies, or somehow planning on moving in? Neither will probably go over too well in your post-apocolyptic world.

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## Rick

My exit plan is pretty simple. Here today, dead tomorrow. I'll let others take care of the leftovers.

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## Chris

Seriously though, in such a situation, I think I'd rather just hoard, huddle, and wait. Even nuclear winters pass.

That, or all learn to live off mycoprotein (food you don't need sunlight to make). 

Then there are fish, if only blue light gets through the atmosphere or whatever, guess what? It is also the only light that penetrates deeply into the water so most aquatic plants that don't reach the water's surface are used to photosynthesizing mostly just it. So the kelp will still grow, and the fish will still eat the kelp.

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## Rick

Yep. I swallowed a nickle once and the Dr. said this too shall pass. Nuclear winters will too. I didn't look for that nickle. I know some of you were wonderin'.

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## MamaBear

Hmm.  I second the thought of raiding local tanning salons.  Or, you could just get a bunch and set some aside, just in case  :Smile: 
You could also grow things that do not need UV light... mushrooms come to mind.  I would imagine there would be plenty of wild game to be harvested in this type of event, as they would all be dropping dead with nothing to eat.

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## DaddyOh

Rick: you have been ruled dead in this scenario.  Three times your responses doomed you to certain death.  As an admin you should have embraced the scenario and shown the troops how a pro does it.

Heres the deal; you are in a situation of finding electricity to farm, or you and your family are dead. A true survivalist would find it.  Nature does not negotiate.

Ps:  venus is in a perpetual nuclear winter.  There are no nukes on venus.

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## DaddyOh

> So.....even if I knew that a nucular winter was coming.....would be no time to do anything about it at this point.... as most anything that is cultivated need 50- 90 days for harvest anyway........Are you gonna be able to last that long....starting today?
> 
> It about 0 degrees today.....so if not prepared for temps, ...shelter/clothing....water in 3 days, food there after......gonna be kinda out of resources.
> 
> I'm thinking that I spending my resources to cover,.....storms, (normal) fire, power outage, supply breakdown, sickness, and the stuff I can realistically prepare for.....
> A lawn chair and some brewskies will cover anything else.



What is the point of prepping if it only means you will die a year later than everyone else?  I raised the gardening issue because following a nuclear winter there would be no seed left.  Hopefully the masses starved before they used all the gas so you can still run some lights. Or.......

Solar cells would still work in a nuc winter.  While the clouds would ruin grow spectrum light, it would still leave  some usable photons for solar power.  Maybe not as fast as nomal, but you take what you can get.

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## Rick

You missed it. The masses starved. That means you and me. We aren't immune to whatever hits "the masses". So, yeah, like a pro, I accepted my fate in a manly way. Head on and without regret.

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## Chris

> What is the point of prepping if it only means you will die a year later than everyone else?  I raised the gardening issue because following a nuclear winter there would be no seed left.  Hopefully the masses starved before they used all the gas so you can still run some lights. Or.......
> 
> Solar cells would still work in a nuc winter.  While the clouds would ruin grow spectrum light, it would still leave  some usable photons for solar power.  Maybe not as fast as nomal, but you take what you can get.


Unless you had seeds saved. 

Heard of this place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault

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## MamaBear

I think the seed vault is awesome!  What could an average person do for long-term seed storage?  Just stick 'em in the freezer?  Maybe in mylar bags with o2 absorbers?  I normally have seeds left over every year (my eyes are bigger than my garden, unfortunately).  





> Unless you had seeds saved. 
> 
> Heard of this place?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault

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## Rick

You can put them in the fridge. You need a place that is cool and dry and the fridge is perfect for that. I've had seeds remain viable for 4-5 years or longer keeping them in the fridge. You will begin to lose some individual seeds after that long but a lot will still be fine.

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## DaddyOh

CThere we go!  Chris hit the nail on the head.  We prep like crazy but what about renewable resources?  Do you have any idea how easy it is to sock away a couple of bottles of hydroponic solution and some essential gear to farm in the house.  Keep in mind that 2 of the worst disasters in recorded were famines.  India lost a mission or more due to the east india trading ********, and ireland had the potato famine (once again brought to us by the Brits)  

If something happens like venezuela, you will need to supplant your diet, but covertly or people will come for your crops.  Just imagine the results of a wintertime embargo by a few of our trade nations.  We could be seriously ****ed.  In the indian famine, the people starved while east india trading company continued to export food stuffs out of india (when all was said and done the EITC actually pulled a profit despite killing some 1.2 million locals)

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## DaddyOh

As for ricks question about electricity...i have solar power.  48 panels cover my roof and almost completely offset my electrical bill.  In the winter i bank energy with the power company, then when summer comes around i use it up (and a little more.)  My folks have generators and i can built a windmill generator out of an old electric motor.  There are dozens of ways to find energy if u really need it.

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## EvisRaptor

> India lost a mission or more due to the east india trading ********, and ireland had the potato famine (once again brought to us by the Brits)


Dude we can be blamed for so many things that are biting western culture if not the world in the arse its just not funny.

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## finallyME

I would use CFLs.  I always buy the highest Kelvin ones I can find, usually 5000+.  I use those to grow plants indoors.

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