# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  Friction fire for old farts who's knees don't bend any longer ?

## Lamewolf

Gang,

Due to my arthritis getting worse and my knees not being able to bend comfortably any longer, I was wondering if anyone knows of a friction fire method that doesn't require kneeling ?  My knees will bend but it is very painful for me, especially when I get down on my knees and rest my weight on them.  I have been successful with the bow drill in the past but now since I have trouble getting up and down, its next to impossible.  I can do the ferro rod thing, flint/steel/charcloth, maginifying glass, and Bic lighter, but miss showing off friction fire to the young folks.  Anyone got any advice ?

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## madmax

After blowing out a knee, while I was rehabbing I thought about this.  I could get down but up was a chore.  I doubt it'll get better as the years go by.  I thought along the lines of a stool and a long spindle.  I saw a hand drill done with a ridiculously long spindle.  So I suppose the bow drill would be possible.  Brace against the knee as usual.  The only difference is the length between the cordage and the fireboard.

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## hunter63

Lamewolf....I share your concern, and thinking a fire plow may be the better solution, as it can be done from a sitting position.

Long spindle may also help.....but at this point, hopefully the younger folk you taught over the years can take over the chore....As it should be.

Or the Egyptian pump drill....although this is getting complicated.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_drill#Pump_drill

Personally, not gonna worry about it. ......

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## Grizz123

I cant help with the friction fire but try drinking POM, 2oz shot a day with meal, to help with joint pain. Its also really good for diabetes, cleaning out your veins and arteries and a few other things, I love the stuff

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## Rick

Have you discussed the problem with your PCP? There are some excellent anti-inflammatory meds on the market. If you can't take them for whatever reason there are also some great pain relievers he/she can prescribe. I feel your pain. No, I really do.

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## Lamewolf

> I cant help with the friction fire but try drinking POM, 2oz shot a day with meal, to help with joint pain. Its also really good for diabetes, cleaning out your veins and arteries and a few other things, I love the stuff


OK, what is "POM" ?

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## kyratshooter

Might be time to get up off the ground!

There is no rule that says the hearth board must be held down with the foot while kneeling.  Sit that sucker on top of the picnic table and get one of the students or observers to hold the hearth board steady while you twirl the spindle.

Once you get a flame light a candle stub so you can transfer the fire to the fire pit at your own pace.  Might want to leave the candle burning in case the fire fizzles at the start.

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## Lamewolf

> Might be time to get up off the ground!
> 
> There is no rule that says the hearth board must be held down with the foot while kneeling.  Sit that sucker on top of the picnic table and get one of the students or observers to hold the hearth board steady while you twirl the spindle.
> 
> Once you get a flame light a candle stub so you can transfer the fire to the fire pit at your own pace.  Might want to leave the candle burning in case the fire fizzles at the start.


Come on KY, I pack enough gear already and I AM NOT going to start packing a picnic table my friend ! :Crying:

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## Sarge47

> Might be time to get up off the ground!
> 
> There is no rule that says the hearth board must be held down with the foot while kneeling.  Sit that sucker on top of the picnic table and get one of the students or observers to hold the hearth board steady while you twirl the spindle.
> 
> Once you get a flame light a candle stub so you can transfer the fire to the fire pit at your own pace.  Might want to leave the candle burning in case the fire fizzles at the start.


Durn!  Kyrat beat me to it!  Also I'd have the kids set up the fire lay area with your guidance.  Then when you get the flame started transfer the responsibility to them!  Make sure they know what to do of course.... :Laugh:

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## RangerXanatos

I've seen a video where a bow drill was done against a standing tree. Forgot what was used to catch the ember. 

The bamboo fire saw can be done while standing.

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## hunter63

How about....
"hey, you young-ins, ....y'all git that fire going, and start supper, mind gittin enough wood for tonight....I'll be taking a nap now, y'all call me for supper..."
"If'n y'all take real good care of me..... maybe be a shotgun in it for you,.... when I croak"

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## Lamewolf

> Have you discussed the problem with your PCP? There are some excellent anti-inflammatory meds on the market. If you can't take them for whatever reason there are also some great pain relievers he/she can prescribe. I feel your pain. No, I really do.


Well, the doc prescribed an NSAID but for all it did I might as well took M&M's !  Don't want to get hooked on pain pills if I can avoid it and my problems is more calcium build up than it is inflammation.  Getting old sucks !  Anyway, I take 800 mg ibuprofen when the pain gets unbearable but even when I'm on that it hurts when I get down on my prayer bones still.  Still trying to figure out what "POM" is that Grizz123 suggested ?  If its an alcoholic drink - can't do it due to my blood pressure meds.

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## Sarge47

Heard it once said that you know you're getting old when you bend down and tie your shoes, then you look around to see if there's anything else you can do while you're down there!.... :Crying:

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## hunter63

POM...Pomegranate juice......
http://www.pomwonderful.com/pomegran...FQesaQodiLQA3Q

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## Rick

There is more than one NSAID on the market. If the one prescribed doesn't work tell your PCP. And there are plenty of pain meds that you won't get hooked on. You don't need morphine just enough to cover the pain and that's only if the anti inflammatory meds bother your liver. I've been using Ultram for about four years. I was using anti inflammatories before that and had to stop them. The Ultram works great. No side effects other than no pain. Good stuff, really.

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## Grizz123

> POM...Pomegranate juice......
> http://www.pomwonderful.com/pomegran...FQesaQodiLQA3Q


Thanks

Like I said, I've been using it for a few months now and its turned my life around. Family members told me about it, I tried it and felt better then I researched it online. Its pretty incredible stuff. It sells between $10-$15 for 64oz, which will last about a month.

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## Lamewolf

> Thanks
> 
> Like I said, I've been using it for a few months now and its turned my life around. Family members told me about it, I tried it and felt better then I researched it online. Its pretty incredible stuff. It sells between $10-$15 for 64oz, which will last about a month.


Looks like they carry it at the local Walmart and I will give it a try - many thanks !

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## Rick

As with any dietary supplement it should be okay'd by your PCP to ensure it doesn't have a negative impact with any meds you are taking. Pomegranate juice can cause dangerous side effects with some meds.

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## Lamewolf

> As with any dietary supplement it should be okay'd by your PCP to ensure it doesn't have a negative impact with any meds you are taking. Pomegranate juice can cause dangerous side effects with some meds.


Will it kill me ?  That would be an end to my problem ! :Flowers:

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## Grizz123

> As with any dietary supplement it should be okay'd by your PCP to ensure it doesn't have a negative impact with any meds you are taking. Pomegranate juice can cause dangerous side effects with some meds.


thats why I avoid Dr's and drugs and stick to an all natural diet, most of the time...

I felt better the next morning after one drink, My joints didnt snap,crackle, pop as much as they usually did. Now, months later my joints are silent. I also noticed I dont get out of breath as quickly as I used to, my nails are much harder and my skin is softer (girlfriend mentioned that to me). 

Working in the power washing business, loading and unloading equipment all day, I would regularly tear my nails at least once a week. Now if they tear, it does not go all the way to the skin, just kind of chips off or bends.

I cant explain the breathing improvement. My guess is I had some sort of lung, heart and or artery issue going on and now I dont get winded nearly as fast as I used to. The GF commented on that also

I've tried other natural remedies and most did nothing for me. I'm still looking for something to help memory but I keep forgetting  :Crying:

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## wilderness medic

Good thread to read while you're sitting in physical therapy for your knees lol. I can't kneel for more than about 20 seconds without locking up and pain.

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## phreshayr

I guess no one here has seen my friction fire videos.   Here is one of them.  This method is performed in a sitting position as you see in the video still picture.

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## hunter63

Not sure if I like the .....hold the bearing block in the mouth, with a sharp pointy stick pointed at my face.........trick.
Interesting though.

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## Lamewolf

> Not sure if I like the .....hold the bearing block in the mouth, with a sharp pointy stick pointed at my face.........trick.
> Interesting though.


I'm with you Hunter - time to break out the trusty Bic !

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## phreshayr

> Not sure if I like the .....hold the bearing block in the mouth, with a sharp pointy stick pointed at my face.........


There is no danger of hitting your face if you do as instructed in the video.   I have performed this method many many times and have never had any close calls.   My favorite is still bow drill but i am glad that I have this knowledge for when needed

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## crashdive123

Nice vid and instruction.  I have seen strap drills before, but not done like this.  Looks like another tool for the tool box.  Thanks.

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## MrFixIt

Thanks for sharing the video phreshayr, rep sent.

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## phreshayr

> Nice vid and instruction.  I have seen strap drills before, but not done like this.  Looks like another tool for the tool box.  Thanks.


Thank you.  The sitting position was the traditional way to do it in many locations around the Northern hemisphere

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## miketraverse

Wow, too cool for school. I was going to give the alternative answer and I see that the man himself posted up his video. I was actually going to link the video as I was watching it again not two days ago. 
Thank you phreshayr for the excellent video. I live in Illinois and it prompted my to begin looking for the best wood to utilize this system. Figure why not make it and throw into the ruck for practice (after I use the ol bic) If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

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## TXyakr

> Thank you.  The sitting position was the traditional way to do it in many locations around the Northern hemisphere


Very good demo video, thanks for sharing. If traveling ultra light you could just carry a carefully crafted custom mouth piece, strap and knife for sure. I would be surprised if something as effective as this was only use in the Northern Hemisphere but perhaps.

The so called "Indian Pump Drill" is not as easy to make because it requires more precise spindle and parts but can also be used in your lap to drill holes in wood etc. or start a friction fire. Besides being easy on the knees and back etc. If it is raining you can sit up on a sling chair (small hammock like device) or stump or whatever under your tarp or shelter while it rains and start a fire or work on your tools that require drilled holes etc. I.e. making a blow dart gun, flute, straw for getting water out of difficult places, etc.

http://www.historicalfolktoys.com/catcont/6007.html

Someone once said that getting our bellies off the ground and making effective tools is what separates us from the snakes and politicians...

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## TXyakr

One of over 100+ ways to make a multipurpose hammock/sling chair to sit in while you create a friction fire in your lap with fire board and drill for some sort. Much lighter than a picnic table just incase your local wilderness does not have those.




You could also whip tie cordage to ends of a pair of blue jeans or cover to your back pack or any old fabric, hang that between two vertical posts/trees, or horizontal branches of same or different trees, tripods of poles carried in or cut from wild, whatever. A net or "Mayan" hammock/sling chair can also be used to hoist firewood and tinder up high just under a tarp to keep it mostly dry when it rains, or use as snare/trap for wild game or fish, or keep your backpack and other gear hoisted above range of varmints etc, many other uses. Making these out of bush crafted plant cordage takes forever but can be done if you are stuck in a 3 day thunderstorm with nothing else to do.

Also note that if your back need support just turn 90 degrees legs on either side of cords, one cord tied higher than other sit down close to one end to allow space to lean back, take a nap with your feet hanging out on the ground or slightly above ground so ants etc don't climb up. Beside the fire you just made with laptop fire bow set.

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## TXyakr

Simple Sling Chair design by "Hog on Ice" only requires one tree/post and trekking posts, cross bar (or 3 cut small poles) and 2 grounds pegs but big advantage beside low weight is that you have more choice of locations you can place it. Other problem is that this video by Sargent Rock assumes you are familiar with some basic hammock jargon. If above tree line in mountains wedge rock in crack in side of cliff hang from there, if on sand bar use one tripod of poles.

For canoe/kayakers just use paddles not trekking poles, i.e. on a sand bar or beach.

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## phreshayr

> ...........I live in Illinois and it prompted my to begin looking for the best wood to utilize this system. Figure why not make it and throw into the ruck for practice (after I use the ol bic) If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.


The following website may be of use to you even though it is comprised of wood found on the west coast of the US.
http://www.primitiveways.com/Fire%20...Materials.html

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## Erratus Animus

I have a video of me using a hand drill to get a nice coal in 26 seconds while recovering from ACL replacement. I used a fallen tree to place everything on and it worked great. I found the yucca stalk that morning in the fog and took it home and made the video. Wam-O a big honking coal. I have received a lot of praise and attention from the video and preforming it for guys locally. Now lets fast foreword a few years to the present. I spent 3 hours trying to get a coal with a new bow drill using just cedar. Epic fail. So I when and got some yucca and still could not get a coal. Getting old sucks but like the OP refining and finding better more efficient ways to get things done is a must I think.

Now I just have to make certain there are cotton woods around and that I don't lose my ferro rod or fint and steel!!!

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## Grizzlyette Adams

> Gang,
> 
> Due to my arthritis getting worse and my knees not being able to bend comfortably any longer, I was wondering if anyone knows of a *friction fire method that doesn't require kneeling* ?  My knees will bend but it is very painful for me, especially when I get down on my knees and rest my weight on them.  I have been successful with the bow drill in the past but now since I have trouble getting up and down, its next to impossible.  I can do the ferro rod thing, flint/steel/charcloth, maginifying glass, and Bic lighter, but *miss showing off friction fire to the young folks.*  Anyone got any advice ?




Here ya go: the Rudiger Fire Roll!  

There are more than a few YouTubes describing the process. Here is one: 




I have not yet done this but when I do I'll hunt up some Dogbane (Indian Hemp) or Milkweed for the fiber... I've made incredibly strong rope from fine Dogbane fibers, so I think it should stand up well to a vigorous rolling.

You could easily show the young 'uns how to make a friction fire while sitting down.

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## hunter63

Thanks for the vid....
I have seen the vid with the shop rag and ashes.....but kinda hard to find shop rags in nature.

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## Batch

I tried the ash roll and it did not work. I tried using white ash from live oak and shop rags and a few natural fibers. Every thing fell apart with no heat.

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## Grizzlyette Adams

I have not tried the bark and stone method yet.  I would imagine this (and the rags / ashes) technique would require exacting conditions (low, low humidity, and probably a bunch other factors we don't know about)? The videos are not exactly packed with details.

Another thing I wondered about...see that flat stone? If you didn't happen to have one "handy" if and when a wilderness situation required it...then what? Another bigger piece of bark? 

sigh... Curiosity is getting the better of me. Now I must try this sooner, rather than later. (It was #478 on my list of things to do.)

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## RangerXanatos

I've tried it with a tampon and coal from a previous fire with no luck.

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## Rick

So many jokes. So little time.

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## Wise Old Owl

> Gang,
> 
> Due to my arthritis getting worse and my knees not being able to bend comfortably any longer, I was wondering if anyone knows of a friction fire method that doesn't require kneeling ?  My knees will bend but it is very painful for me, especially when I get down on my knees and rest my weight on them.  I have been successful with the bow drill in the past but now since I have trouble getting up and down, its next to impossible.  I can do the ferro rod thing, flint/steel/char cloth, magnifying glass, and Bic lighter, but miss showing off friction fire to the young folks.  Anyone got any advice ?


Ahh the owl doesn't joke or pull puns all the time... wrap your head around this historic "oops" of miss-information. Keep in mind nutritionists got it very wrong for the last 40 years. Eating small amounts of fat are good for you. Fats are clearly converted to energy. Sugars overwhelm the pancreas, and do supply a short burst. Bottom forgotten line? Aspic was the accepted food prior to the mistake. Yes IN the 60's masses of people ate Jello and Aspic's - the bone marrow feeds the joints.  Jello delivers too little marrow and is too full of sugar, so I add a packet of plain to every packet using the ice approach - well it works the pain gets less and less over the months, because this is very slow absorbing...

that's a IMO from the Owl.

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## Grizz123

I brought it up earlier in this thread and wanted to check back to see if anyone actually tried POM and if it helps you?

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## aniket

hello
We are a nation of creaky knees. 
One in three people over the age of 40 experiences knee pain at some stage, and recent research suggests more Britons under the age of 50 are undergoing knee replacements. 
The study, published in the journal Arthritis & Rheumatism, also showed a 5.7 per cent increase in the number of knee replacements in Britain last year knee replacements now outnumber hip replacements.
Experts say obesity is partly to blame, combined with increasingly sedentary lifestyles. 
Research shows the obese are up to four times as likely to develop knee osteoarthritis as they are high blood pressure or type 2 diabetes, says Professor Alan Silman, medical director of Arthritis Research UK. 
The good news is that weight loss and exercise combined have been shown to achieve the same level of symptom relief as joint replacement surgery. 
But arthritis isnt the only cause. 
Here, we look at common knee problems  and what you can do about them.

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## Rick

Okay. I'm done with your copy and paste crap. Adios.

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## pete lynch

Saw that guy on here this morning and figured someone would ask for references to those posts. All done in different writing styles I thought.
Goodbye, akinet. We hardly knew ye.
( Actually crossed my mind that Txyker was amongst us under another name, but posts were way too short.)

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## Rick

> posts were way too short




Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are.

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## hunter63

> Saw that guy on here this morning and figured someone would ask for references to those posts. All done in different writing styles I thought.
> Goodbye, akinet. We hardly knew ye.
> ( Actually crossed my mind that Txyker was amongst us under another name, but posts were way too short.)


Well....The other recent bounce-ie reminded me of his style, with the Yankee stuff........But hey, didn't get around to long posts...just a couple of personal  attacks.

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## pete lynch

Yeah. If I have to do more than 2 revolutions of the mouse's scroll wheel to read a single post I just skip it. Mainly when the start of it is preachy.  :Wink:

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## hayshaker

gosh reading all this i feel so old. my lambeygo actin actin up again.

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## hunter63

> Yeah. If I have to do more than 2 revolutions of the mouse's scroll wheel to read a single post I just skip it. Mainly when the start of it is preachy.


"Preachy".....Yeah, No Ship......That's the ticket....and you are correct....
Besides my attention span isn't what it used to be.....Oh a shiny nickel....

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## primitiveskills

While I was in recovery from a tree related incident I modified my bow drill form by bracing my hand hold UNDER my knee and used a spindle just long enough to take advantage of the weight of my leg to apply downward pressure. This kept me from having to stress the broken knee and it also prevented the pins holding my wrist together from causing too much pain while sawing with the bow (my hand being tucked between my calf and thigh created a supportive brace). Also, move to a slightly narrower spindle and slightly longer bow to max out on mechanical advantage. Hope this helps.

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## taint

you could do the bow drill with the hearth held against a tree, (I think?) 

here's a sit down method,. lonnie's highly skilled and friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF10v5uTAHc

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## primitiveskills

Have you tried inuit strap drill? It can be done in your lap or on a fallen log in the bush. I made an old video, let me see if I can dig it up... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN7Vf1Hr3fc In the process, I found other videos that do a better job of the "getting it off the ground" part. Just type in "strap drill" on youtube. Bunch of young folks really savvy with cameras are doing a great job out there.

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## scumbucket

Have you thought of flint and steel? I know it's not a bow drill, but if you use char cloth and some dry grass you can stand up and get a spark on the char cloth, then put that in a nest of dry grass and blow on it til the flame starts, then drop in in the fire pit and add the kinkling while standing up. You have your fire and didn't have to bend over. Or, use the ol bic, or matches.

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