# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  friction fire with bloody hands....Help?

## cacteye

I remember when I first looked on youtube and saw everyone making friction fire in like 4 seconds. I assumed(that's right I'm the ***) that it was so simple. the first time I tried I was with some family members we each tried and roughly 1-2 hours later with a pair of bloody hands I began googling what we were doing wrong. (are you all ready to laugh) we were using oak as a spindle and mesquite as the hearth(i think that's how you spell it) board. after googling I found a list of some "favorable" woods to use. Weeks after locating them, I decided trying it on my own this time and still failed horribly, however this time I got a ton of sawdust. I yet again turned to google for assistance(I think the problem with google is that there is too much info out there so you end up buried in a mountain of useless **** and dont get the right info) so I read how humidity can cause failure...Lucky me I live in a place with about 60%-70% humidity year round. so again I assume that is the issue and decide to build a fire with a liter and "dry out" the wood pieces and again I fail and yet again I have bloody hands. Then I decide maybe Its the types of woods humidity, and Im just not trying hard enough. and I kind of just put this project on the back burner. This this day I can say with 100% honesty I have yet to get a friction fire started, but i have gotten bloody hands in abundance. I have been planning another session but at this point SCREW google I would like some advice from you guys. I have the next week off and I plan on making a friction fire this week come hell or high-water. In my yard I have oak, mesquite, lemon, palm, umbrella plant, jakaranda, and a few weird tree species. I have access to something that looks like a white willow but I have yet to positively ID it. there are spanish needles, yucca(Pita), all sorts of acacias and hard woods......Help?

P.S. any advice on keeping my hands safe? other than gloves of course.

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## Rick

Don't feel bad. I've never been successful either. That's why I carry everything else.

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## MrFixIt

Friction fire by hand is a challenge unto itself. Factor in humidity, woods chosen, and the physical aspect and you already have the makings of a failure, IMO.
I've done fire by bow drill twice and was only successful once.
Like Rick, I carry at least 3 ways to make a fire.
Don't give up, it's a useful skill to have, and when you get that first one right, you'll be very satisfied.

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## TXyakr

Friction fire with natural materials is a very difficult to craft to master in all conditions even in ideal conditions with ideal materials. As I recall Les Stroud said on his first show over 10 years ago it took him over 11 hours to get this first fire started with that method, he was NOT as prepared as he thought he was!

Technique is very important not brut force, but very dry (not green) material makes a huge difference. I would work up from bow drill to hand drill not the other way around. Softer material like pine, cottonwood, or palm then only try hardwoods later. But others will probably disagree with this opinion. Most people do not post dozens of hours of their failed attempts on youtube because no one would watch it. What you see there is mostly edited success. Every friction fire you eventually get is a gift be very thankful for it. I try to always carry a ferro rod and lighter both protected so they do not get damaged or lost and backup emergency cotton balls and a small tube of petroleum jelly. Tree sap, birch/juniper bark (accelerants) and natural tinders can fail you in high humidity so try them first, collect down under lower protected branches etc. but have a backup in case you need it cannot find natural or whatever. Sorry I ramble...

Tiny bit of your accelerant in burn hole on fire-board may help but do not over lube it so oxygen does not get there and reduce friction. Focus on technique! Once you have wood/material that produces sawdust and friction both.

What is diameter of your spindle?

Edit: I am a Pragmatist NOT a Purist who most only use pure vegetarian material that I saw demonstrated on bushcraft youtube videos by some self proclaimed "experts". Tree sap and birch bark are not sacred or spiritual to me. OK to rub a dead stinking lizard, mouse, fish's fat or whatever in there or at bottom to make it smolder better. Ideal to use both cottonwood spindle and fire-board but will mis-match if I must. Cooking oil is fine. I sometimes use paper towel or pine needles etc to wipe down my cook pot from one meal put in plastic bag or used p-bottle save to start fire with for next meal all that oil and fat is a great accelerant and paper towel smolders or flames up well. None of this may work as great as lighter fluid sold to start charcoal fires but I am reusing items I already have or found along the way.

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## NightSG

You need a modern bearing to hold the top of the spindle properly.  I recommend this one: http://www.walmart.com/ip/21810427?

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## cacteye

Thanks for the advice, I tried again last night, for about 2 hours. I got a whole bunch of smoke but no ember. I think I might have to go Bow-drill first. In reply to some doubts yes I used dry dead wood, nothing green. everything here is just so moist due to the high humidity. I have 2 lighters, 2 paper match books, 2 metal-matches, and sisal rope broken down into a birds nest and double wrapped in plastic for tinder.(I know it sounds a bit like overkill, but if I was in a group and we had to split for any reason multiple methods of "secure" fire making is one thing I never leave home without) But on the off chance I was ever caught in a place where access to my pack is impossible, I want to learn the Primitive method.

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## TXyakr

To get smoke with a hand drill is very impressive. Most people quit long before that.

Bow-drill provides a mechanical advantage but fire-board part is basically the same, how long you must continue to create smoke before a good ember forms depends on variables like type of wood, moisture etc. No formulas that I know, just lots of practice. Have fun with it. Post a photo of your fire-board with spindle showing char, i.e. sweat equity, no power drill involved!

Don't fake it like those "Alaskan Bush People" the Browns... with gunpowder in the hole and a lighter... ha ha ha...

Edit: or that Nat Geo Show Dirty Rotten Survival how to camp out of a H.W. store and RV van...
http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...tten-survival/

I think tinder bundle might be even more important than ember, and for sure more important than spark when using a ferro rod which is much much easier. Building a good tinder bundle is also a craft almost an art. Moisture is a BIG problem with tinder!

I like to test natural accelerants with a cigarette lighter when I am out and about day hiking or whatever. Things you would think burn well often do not. Like sap/pitch from various juniper and pine etc. trees while others do at various times of the year and at various humidity levels. I am always learning. Also try seeds and dry blooms etc, animal scat, dead animal's fat, fur and feathers are terrible in my experience but I keep on trying, may find some that works someday...

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## morganbw

> I think tinder bundle might be even more important than ember, and for sure more important than spark when using a ferro rod which is much much easier. Building a good tinder bundle is also a craft almost an art. Moisture is a BIG problem with tinder!.


Tinder bundle, a good one is a must.

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## trapperjack

what works for us is Dead dry standing Sycamore wood fire board and a Yucca flower stem, choosing these two materials carefully means a lot. the flower stem should be dead two years or more, it will be grey and near pithy, the sycamore wood will be feather light and resonant, dense heavy specimens are layed aside. the yucca ignites at a very low temperature the sycamore gives high friction. that's why it works.

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## trapperjack

not all wood that is dead has arrived at a suitable stage of decay to be used as a fire board, learning the stages that wood goes through helps identify the perfect piece for a fireboard and spindle. I can feel it in the sound resonance of the piece, the sound has to be right when you scrape the wood with your fingernail. fresh dead wood lacks the hollow sound resonance of just the right piece. its more than just the type of wood, the wood should be broken down enough to ignite easily.

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## kyratshooter

You guys are elevating a simple act into a mysterious "art form".

I have seen fire made with tinder bundles of dry leaves, Spindles and fire boards from the refuse of a pile of wood for the campfire, and at least one house burned down by a 9 year old playing with a magnifying glass!

The fastest friction fire I ever saw made was using a Mullen stem pulled from the side of a railroad track on a hearth-board split from a 2x4.  It took all of 30 seconds from first spin to flame.

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## TXyakr

Yeah right KYrat! I was referring to something the typical person could do consistently in all conditions with found materials in a wide range of environments.

At a kid's birthday party I once saw a clown in pull a rabbit out of a tall hat but I would not advise that folks going backpacking in remote wilderness areas take tall hats and dress like a clown... ha ha ha... What you have seen on youtube... and demos...

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## kyratshooter

?????

Did someone say something?

Sorry, I took Crash's advice a while back and now I can't tell if I am being insulted or not.

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## cacteye

Thanks TXyakr, yes I agree that the tinder bundle is very important aswell, but for now my main concern is getting the coal. As i said I can get smoke, but it takes me about 20 minutes to get my fire mini-smoke plume. after that it sits there and smokes while I spin. the second I stop spinning the smoke begins clearing. today I didnt try anything because I had some errands to run. have some Live oak that I have been drying for 1 1/2 years or so(honestly I lost count) mesquite thats been drying for at least 2-3 years. there are tons of yucca and magay stalks that are dry, but I have to go scavenge those in the nearby woods. what sound should I be shooting for Jack? the ones I have gotten sound like a knife scraping a piece of dry toast. As far as pics, I need to setup a tripod or something to auto shoot while I do it. I lost my Media assistant(my GF and I split up :-/ )

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## TXyakr

Sounds great cacteye. I need to try again with some juniper but have been busy with outfitting trips every weekend. I thought red center (has a little resin?) of eastern red cedar or mountain cedar (technically juniper) would work but without cheeting like some folks do on youtube videos with gunpowder or whatever it did not work as well as others.

Trapperjack had great advice I need to try that! To eliminate the bow would be great. Some comments are entertaining but best ingored, sorry about that. Ignoring the noise.

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## Batch

I gathered some materials to try hand drill fire. I can't remember what all I gathered. I know I got some horseweed, dogfennel, elderberry and a couple of other woods for spindles. I gathered willow and a couple of other things for hearth boards. I think I tried cypress. Plus my friend brought some wood from plants in his yard. He has a a mix of tropical hammock natives and a few cultivated.

I have no problem getting smoke and some put out a good dust pile. I just haven't got a coal. I have experimented with different notches and no notch at all. I even chucked the spindles up in my cordless and spun them. No coal for me yet.

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## trapperjack

the ignition point of the materials is a hurdle to get across, try using horse weed stalks, or any other weed with a pithy center. these have low ignition temps. they smolder quite well.

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## Batch

I did try horseweed. I think what I need to do is document better. I just kind of through all of the drills and hearths on the hood of the jeep in my warehouse and my friend Mike and I would try for a while each. 

I think I will keep notes on the amount of smoke and the dust pile I get with each. The horse weed spindle has probably been drying for over a year inside my warehouse. The inside temp is usually about 105 degrees while the door is open. I am also pretty sure I have a hibiscus hearth board. Which is supposed to be a good easy hearth-board. 

Did you experiment with friction fire and hand drill sets when you were living Florida? You were in central Florida for awhile IIRC, right?

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## TXyakr

Cacteye just a photo of your fire-board and spindle is good enough with a scale/ruler for size comparison if possible. There are plenty of videos on YouTube no need for more of those. I need to take some photos of what I have tried both the successful and failures. Can learn a lot from failures.

I never tried Horseweed, this is a good time to collect that and start drying it. I paddled by a lot of dead debris and brush piles last two weekends but was instructing kids kayaking and did not have time to go exploring or collecting. Will try to use my lunch stop to grab some stuff this next weekend. Also a lot of cotton from roadside fields which is major cheating for tinder, not really wilderness...

Also rubbing match heads into the hole on fire-board so you get smoke in less than 30 second is IMO major cheating! Like pulling a rabbit from a hat. May get many views on youtube but makes you a fraud!

Edit
Other woods I have collected but not tried yet: 
1. Dead wood branches from Texas Ash tree have hollow core even fairly small branches not sure if this will work as a spindle but wood is fairly hard. These trees hold a lot of dead wood and common and easy to spot in the wild.

2. Invasive LIGUSTRUM LUCIDUM (aka Glossy Privet) grows wild every where there is water especially along river/creek banks and in my yard where birds poop out seeds. Wood is fairly soft for a broadleaf evergreen. I don't have any dried out yet so this will take some time before I can try it unless I can find some in a debris pile or dug up by a hog, beaver don't seem to like it.

3. Hackberry also has a lot of dead wood on it.

4. Pecan and hickory are very hard wood but drop a lot of limbs, might try to split a branch and use as fire-board but probably never as spindle. I don't know, not on my short list.

This pile of debris had some items I could use to start a fire I think:
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## NightSG

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Nobody grabbed five good tires and stock Chevy wheels before the moss grew?  That thing would have been stripped to the frame within a week here.

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## sjj

Interesting thread.

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## TXyakr

When I got back into to town I watched the recorded recent episode of Discovery Channel's N&A and saw an over confident 23 year old lady put far to much trust in her ability to start a fire with a bow drill set she had only used to start a fire with twice before in UTAH now rely on it in tropical (humid) Panama.

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/na...ios/kim-kelly/

Then her much older partner (Gary Underhill) was advised to tap out a few days later due to lack of water and food. There are several other ways to purify water. (Find a clear plastic or glass bottle down by the ocean shore clean it out and solarize water for about 6 hours and a few others.) Anyway my main point is she should have taken a fire starting method she had practiced and not just said "OH I saw this used on TV, and it worked under idea conditions twice for me, good to go." FAIL when others are depending on you!

Overall she did fairly well, but when you are young and healthy there is a greater margin for error. I did a lot of foolish and down right stupid things when I was her age and younger and lived to tell about it. BUT I had both a father and mother who taught me better to be concerned about the welfare of others, mostly by their actions demonstrated everyday.

Always ticks me off when these newbies waste hours building shelter then think to build a fire to purify water after it starts to get more humid as sun sets. An experienced jungle survivor knows you can stay warm by a fire in driving rain holding 2-4 palm branches over your head or simple 3 stick tripod to help. But try starting a fire in a light rain or downpour, it is a PITA! Especially by rubbing sticks and if your bow is a very short BONE! OMG just shoot me now! Gary showed the patience of a saint!

Off topic but when trapping animals use whatever means, brush sticks to funnel them toward the noose and bait or whatever not all haphazard like what she did. In introduction she said she had killed small game, but when she killed the caiman she said it was her first kill and cried about it. WHAT?!?

Why do I torment myself by watching this nonsense? Pop Warner Football is less painful to watch.

EDIT: Especially in a hot, humid, pathogen infested environment, HYDRATE your body first! then you will have more strength and energy to build a better shelter and forage for food. Common freaking sense, ask any true jungle dweller, indigenous or not. "Survivors" occasionally survival despite their incredible stupidity and lack of common sense.

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## TXyakr

> Nobody grabbed five good tires and stock Chevy wheels before the moss grew?  That thing would have been stripped to the frame within a week here.


I think that Suburban has been there for about 4 months now, private land on both sides of the river and rapid is fairly strong above and below it about 50 yards. but I was able to maneuver my WW kayak in multiple times to assist people who go hung up there. Most paddled successfully to the far side. We had someone over there to grab them as well. And we were both directing them with hand signals away, talk before the rapid etc. I extracted 4 good tubes from this Cul-de-sac of trash 2 from Texas State Tubes and 2 from Don's Fish Camp. I never took a tire lug wench and large canoe with me but considered it. ha ha ha. All total I rescued 6 kayaks over 6 trips down this rapid stuck at just this spot. No one died on my watch!

One lady paddled in there with a canoe trying to find her lost paddle, I told her it was a good way to reshape the canoe's hull more hydro-dyanamically. She got ticked off and paddled on we saw her paddle further down river in some tree roots, she still missed it. There was as a washed out section under the old dam with a whirlpool sucking stuff down. IT WAS A DEATH TRAP. Not worth the risk for a $50 paddle IMO. We she other groups doing very dangerous acts of foolishness almost overtime we go on a river or lake, that is why some people hire us. We are very safety conscious and have an excellent record. One little girl in our group asked if I was on the river everyday. I said "I wish! I am and an Electronic Engineer Mon-Friday. This only on weekends."

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## TXyakr

This is one of the most REALISTIC videos I have seen about starting a primitive fire with a horse-weed spindle via the hand-drill method in humid conditions. He talks about the importance of practice and preparation! Video is 31 minutes long full of good ideas and tips not a 30 second hat trick.

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## cacteye

so again I failed horribly.... I believe next time I try I am going to go bow-drill.

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## TXyakr

I have never been successful at hand drill only bow drill and with good cordage not slippery nylon paracord. I have been looking of horse-weed standing dead in the wild, never there when you need it. Lots of ragweed this year however one of worst in this area. First time ever for me I went to Dr. yesterday and got steroid shot for allergies and he also gave me antibiotics even though I don't quit seem to be there just yet but major pain in chest, body aces all over. Been spending most of my time outside day and night. Still no sign of horse-weed (I know exactly what it looks like). If I can manage it (against Dr's orders) will explore an new area this Saturday down by a river that may have some, hard to see when eyes are running and breathing is labored and sinuses full, throat on fire... dang pollen... must wear a Shemagh and frighten the children, beard sticking out bottom freaks out adults as well. ha ha ha

Did you try clapping hands, working with stone (knapping), auto mechanics, landscaping etc. to get major callus on your hands. Sit there if watching news/TV/reading emails and on and off spin a spindle to develop you hands and technique a few minutes/hour on and off everyday. It is like learning to hike long distance barefoot outside, takes a lot of time, very few people ever achieve it most just fake it.

Rambo Outfitters has good ideas, I like his suggestions. He appears to be for real unlike most people online who are mostly just full of hot air. I will not name names...

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## cacteye

Well I am a Pc guy. although I do all my own auto mechanics, Ac/heating work, go fishing and walking as often as possible. so my body has the endurance, the hands just dont last. they shred up like a bodybuilder trying to tenderize meat. LOL

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## Davidlastink

Nice thread. I would also point out in a real survival situation all these cheat methods you point out TX are pretty damn good ideas. The match rubbed inside the notch on your board for one. I think even a failed match is better than nothing if you are trying for friction.

Makes me want to try a hand drill but I like my 4 methods of fire starting I carry with me lol. I think I would use a magnifier / polished soda can before trying a hand drill.

An aside, but you don't have to go the drill method if your hands are shot you can wrap em and try a fire plow. (yes like the movie Cast away)

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## TXyakr

@ Davidlastink I agree common sense says take fast and easy fire starter tools and make darn sure you don't lose them. I need to post a photo of how I have some small ferro rods attached to my foot wear but even these can be lost like in mud or wedged in rock on a fall down hillside etc. or stollen by a raccoon or bear while you are sleeping etc. etc.

The primary purpose of practicing with "rubbing sticks" is if you lose everything you brought and must fashion a knife out of broken river stone, clam/mussel shells or whatever and "make fire" with an extremely primitive method. It is much easier if you have actually done it and not just watched a few "Youtube" videos, most of which are highly edited if not totally fake and deceptive. At least you will get warmer with all the physical exertion but most people would be better off just walking out of there and not even trying to start a fire because they haven't got a "snow ball's chance in hell". Or if they are badly injured just pile a lot of debris on top of themselves for warmth and wait until the sun comes up, then crawl to an open area and try to signal for rescue without a fire, pray for luck you will definitely need it! I sure hope you are not bleeding out too badly (internally?) from the wild animal attack or fall down the hillside.

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## Davidlastink

> @ Davidlastink I agree common sense says take fast and easy fire starter tools and make darn sure you don't lose them. I need to post a photo of how I have some small ferro rods attached to my foot wear but even these can be lost like in mud or wedged in rock on a fall down hillside etc. or stollen by a raccoon or bear while you are sleeping etc. etc.
> 
> The primary purpose of practicing with "rubbing sticks" is if you lose everything you brought and must fashion a knife out of broken river stone, clam/mussel shells or whatever and "make fire" with an extremely primitive method. It is much easier if you have actually done it and not just watched a few "Youtube" videos, most of which are highly edited if not totally fake and deceptive. At least you will get warmer with all the physical exertion but most people would be better off just walking out of there and not even trying to start a fire because they haven't got a "snow ball's chance in hell". Or if they are badly injured just pile a lot of debris on top of themselves for warmth and wait until the sun comes up, then crawl to an open area and try to signal for rescue without a fire, pray for luck you will definitely need it! I sure hope you are not bleeding out too badly (internally?) from the wild animal attack or fall down the hillside.


Most definitely TX but truth is learning the woods and tinder is just as important, so I hedge my bets as much as I can. I tried the fire plow method with some really old fencing I have lying around, I started to break a sweat before I got any where with it. Picked the fencing because it was basically ready made into the shapes needed, I will try later with a stick from the oak tree out back, but I am no expert on different woods etc. I mean I know what they look like form the vids etc, but I doubt I'd be sure in a survival situation that really required my to know. 

Truth be told I did it more to see if I could keep up with the physicality of it. I can definitely do it, with use of my arms / non- injured back/ abdomen, but I would not be able to with a an injury taking out either arm or to my back/ abdomen. Push comes to shove I have ferro rods, several lighters, waterproof matches, batteries and even my phone battery if need be. Just hope them thievy Racoons keep their mits off.

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## primitiveskills

Hand drill is a desert technology. Humidity, not temperature, is what makes handrail difficult. If you are in a moist environment, like here in Maine, moisture is your number one blockage when it comes to hand drill. Winter tends to be dry here, which is nice, because it is easy to get the wood stove going with a hand drill in the morning instead fumbling for all the right bow drill parts (we have a barrel with dozens of mismatched sets). When your hands recover, choose a spindle that you know has been kept off the ground and is dry. Place it on your cheek and it should be warm, not cool. Cool means wet, warm means dry. Also, be sure that the  end of your spindle that makes contact with the fire board has no leaf scars on the edge. Inconsistent density will create a vibration that will shake your coal apart. When you choose a form, be sure that it is comfortable and you can lean your center of mass over the spindle. Being contorted and uncomfortable is a big issue in ones ability to apply consistent downward pressure. "Floating" is sexy, but not necessary. Just remember that your blisters are from pushing in and rubbing. You want to push down and glide with as much length of your hands as you can to get as many rotations as you can. Sometimes this is best done with the blades of the hand, with other folks, riding to the tips of the fingers works best. Play with your form until you have it "dialed in". After that, start slowly to "prime the pump". Pre-heating before applying you "all" helps get your coal before you wear out and/or get blisters. Fatigue leads to poor judgement which leads to blisters. First establish a smooth roll using the entire length of your hands with each "run". Accomplish a sustainable rhythm until you see the first wisp f smoke, than apply increasing downward pressure, than increase speed. When you have thick, white, billowing smoke, add eight to ten more strokes before checking for your coal. The dust should be black and a thin wisp of smoke should continue after you stop your technique. Take your time gathering yourself and shuttling your coal into a tinder bundle. Once you have a coal, the biggest threats to success are shocking the coal apart and a crappy tinder bundle. Here is a link to our instructional video. Good luck! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9GiK_T4PA

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## Goose

> so again I failed horribly.... I believe next time I try I am going to go bow-drill.


Cacteye, were you ever able to start a fire with the hand drill?  I've been trying for a few days now and can only get a pile of dust and smoke.  I am sure I must have been close one time yesterday!

I am using horse weed for the spindle and cedar (fencing kind) and a dried out peice of pine from my yard.  I don’t  know much about wood types and most of what folks say they use I can't find. 

My hands aren't bleeding (yet), but they are sore as you know what.  Anyways, i came across this thread and was wondering how it all worked out for you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

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## primitiveskills

Hand drill off the landscape is originally a desert technology. Knowing this helps, even in humid areas. On clear days, or in winter when the cold makes the air dry, we can have greater success with hand drill. Gathering materials is the second consideration after conditions. In Maine, the primary method for fire starting was bow drill due to the rain and humidity. The bow adds a mechanical advantage and allows for a spindle with more mass and a larger diameter to reach temperature and overcome the humidity issues that impede most hand drill novices and challenge many seasoned practitioners. As for materials, a straight spindle with a pithy center is preferred when in the field. I would recommend training on a cedar spindle on cedar fire board to avoid blisters and bleeding hands. In the field, Elderberry, horse weed, mullein, goldenrod, and evening primrose are numerous and effective. It's important to harvest the upper two thirds and leave the bottom third as the capillary action of the plant is designed to transport fluid and if it is connected to the ground, it must be dried before it can produce a coal. After I harvest a spindle I will out it in direct sunlight hanging from a brach for at least forty minutes. Your firebird can be made of any softer non resinous wood. I prefer the tops of dead standing balsam fir. Regarding form, your blisters are caused by pressing IN too hard and going too fast from the get go. Start smooth and slow and emphasize downward pressure rather than inward pressure. Don't increase speed until you see whisps of smoke. If you feel a "warming" on your hands STOP! Be patient. Wait untill the next day. Your calluses will be a source of pride, but they will eventually peel without practice. We have a family rule that the wood stove can only be lit with hand drill. The youngest is a master at keeping the coals in the stove, but the two boys just take it in stride. While hand drill will not always provide a coal in the outdoors, knowing its limitations and when conditions are ideal will open up opportunities the common bic flickers can only dream about. Hope this helps.

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