# Prepping / Emergency Preparedness > General Emergency Preparedness >  Bugging out on foot - What does it take?

## pgvoutdoors

If a situation occurs requiring a bug out on foot, can you do it. Or if you have family and friends going with you, can they make it on foot. A motorized vehicle would be most peoples first choice to travel any real distance, but that option can be eliminated for a variety of reasons. Think about grabbing a Bug out Bag and getting your family and yourself out of town quickly. You need to travel at least fifty miles to your closest safe haven.

If you set out on your own but came across a group of people that asks for your help, what concerns would you have. The group does not know each other and working together has been a problem.

Approach this scenario in the general sense and not personal.

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## Winter

You would have to train a family, a couple, or yourself for that hike. I think doing the hike 3 times would work out most surprises. Try 3 different routes as well.

Avoid the group if possible, but if it's something absurd like foreign invasion/zombies/alien invasion, then join the group because your goals are the same.

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## MidWestMat

The family and I would be able to make a fifty mile bugout.  Of course, our varying levels of practice and fitness would make it a bit slower.  A simple bugout bag would suffice for the basic needs of any or all of the family although not great comforts.

For the most part I would have to avoid other groups if at all possible.  We are talking about a relatively short bugout and I can not see any possible benefit outweighing the possible risks associated with unknown groups.

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## BENESSE

On foot, my friend, is the ONLY way we _can_ bug out. That's all we're preparing to do, it's all we practice to do.
It's surprisingly easy when you have no other options.

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## Sourdough

So.................2 out of 3 respondants failed to follow instructions. I think that is better than average.

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## pgvoutdoors

> So.................2 out of 3 respondants failed to follow instructions. I think that is better than average.


I was holding out for a couple more posts, but what is the odds of it getting better?

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I will be alone and on foot or on horse if I can get to the horse, if not "Shanks Mare," or a quad trac that is pre stashed with stabil fuel. I have 103 miles to get to point H with way points at B through G. 3 different possible routes have been planned. The 18 possible way points on the 3 routes already have small caches of needed items and re-supply. Point H has 2 other back up points as well. My GF and her son also have the mapped out plan. We have used it a few times and covered errors and redirects. 

All three routes are NOT trails or game trails, they are carefully planned routes that based on current use, not too many people will have these routes to go. We have planned for people following us. There are hide away points as well as fall back positions that can be used for defense or hold points.

I will try to avoid groups but if I do meet one, I will continue to travel alone. My GF will try her best to get to the horses, if she cannot, then she has a back up of a quad trac, if that fails, she and her son will be on foot as well. If group seems or turns hostile, plans are to shoot first and get out. No mercy asked or given. The likelyhood of meeting a group on this route is extremely low but have been planned for.

We will have a means of communication with each other from minute 1. BOB's for all three of us are ready with back-ups to those at various places. Each of us will have various weapons with us. The quads are ready with enough gas for 3 times the trip and hidden, the muffler systems have been made quiet, almost as quiet as electric. Tool kits for repairs are on the tracs.

The past 2 years, we have practiced the plans as our vacations. We know it well and know the sources for food and water on the way with back ups to those sources. 

Not sure how you make this general and not personal but this is our basic general plan.

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## SARKY

If a situation occurs requiring a bug out on foot, can you do it.         Yes
Or if you have family and friends going with you, can they make it on foot.        Yes
 A motorized vehicle would be most peoples first choice to travel any real distance, but that option can be eliminated for a variety of reasons. Think about grabbing a Bug out Bag and getting your family and yourself out of town quickly. You need to travel at least fifty miles to your closest safe haven.

       First: my safe haven is only 30 miles away. Traveling fifty miles would take 5 days or more on level ground. I figure no more than 10 miles a day with my family. I can do twice that.

If you set out on your own but came across a group of people that asks for your help, what concerns would you have. 

What kind of help are they looking for? Concerns are many, is it a trap? What skills do they bring to the table? Are there any slackers in the group? Are there any useful people in the group? Can I cull out the slackers?

The group does not know each other and working together has been a problem.  

       Do they need leadership or are they fighting over the leadership position?

Approach this scenario in the general sense and not personal.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

PGV, We are on the West side of Cleveland BTW...... and have plans for heading S,W,E based on the threat or emergency.

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## Sourdough

This is one problem with assumptions, unless the assumption is to walk the full 50+ miles. In which case the Bug out bag, needs to be a only necessities Back Pack as light as possible. Well broken-in hiking boots will be critical to success.

The distance should be covered as quickly as possible, and ideally you want to be at the very front of the pack, as others will be leaving a trail of raw sewage and garbage on the ground and in the water. Other people will have flu and virus and TB, and all kinds of skanky disease & crap, avoid humans. They will be crying and begging. Kill'em if they insist on coming close after being warned to stay away.

Suggest avoid all humans if possible, suggest travel at night with-out a light if possible. Stay hydrated, stay hidden, stay quiet, stay fully aware of everything, including what the wild animals are looking at. Stay hungry, don't over eat. Mostly haul-arse or die. 85% to 95% of those in the back of the pack are going to die. 85% to 90% of those in the front of the pack are going to live.

Leave early, travel fast, travel light, know your equipment. And Pray A Lot.

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## pgvoutdoors

Long range movements by foot have inherent concerns that effect everyone differently. The focus here is walking, lots and lots walking. As an experienced backpacker, wilderness guide, and US Marine, I've felt the toll of hard miles on the trail. I've seen the limits of many people and they very tremendously. Fifty miles for one person may be no concern, but to another it might as well be the end of the world. This may be true for the very young, the elderly, the sick, or unfit. If these people are your responsibility how would you handle it? What if fifty miles turns into hundreds of miles. Again, if the group wasn't family, how could a person lead such a group. How do you resolve conflict? What medical concerns do you have? Can you keep them motivated? These are common concerns in many situations but how do they effect a journey on foot?

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Yes, and know this because of weekly drills doing it, scouting areas for resourses and prepositioning supplies. All the difficulties have been overcome and confident in being able to do what I have been doing. Quit supposing and conquer your own unique challenges.

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## pgvoutdoors

> Yes, and know this because of weekly drills doing it, scouting areas for resourses and prepositioning supplies. All the difficulties have been overcome and confident in being able to do what I have been doing. Quit supposing and conquer your own unique challenges.


Now there's a leader - NOT!

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## Sourdough

> Now there's a leader - NOT!


Me neither, I think it would be an unleadable "Horror". Just Horrific beyond my comprehension. Phil, I think it is unfair to judge those of us who would have no interest in being a leader in that situation. It is equal to judging us for already living where we do, away from the sea of humanity. Your welcome to judge me and Alaskan Survivalist, but nothing would induce me to attempt to help hundreds of thousands maybe millions of screaming, crying, begging humans. I see myself as a leader, but one needs to temper compassion with wisdom.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Now there's a leader - NOT!


Not a follower either. Not a musician, not a dancer, not a million other things. What has that got to do with anything?

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## Alaskan Survivalist

And further figure on hiding my tracks!

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## pgvoutdoors

did you even read the question before you ran off into the woods to hide?  It asks for leadership advice, if you not a leader fine, but telling us you are going off on your own doesn't answer the original question.  give it a break!

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## pgvoutdoors

It's too bad that two people with your skills feel unwilling to lead a group on foot, but this shows the basic problem with a group of people traveling on foot.

Leadership; who goes and who stays behind, do you help the ill and injured or let them fend for their selves. Who navigates and determines where to go and when to rest.  What considerations are taken when children are involved?  Anyone that has done any real traveling on foot, with a group of people, knows that there's much more to it than going as fast and as far as you can.  This is the information to be discussed on this thread, so lets try again.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> did you even read the question before you ran off into the woods to hide?  It asks for leadership advice, if you not a leader fine, but telling us you are going off on your own doesn't answer the original question.  give it a break!


Yes I did read it and it said "if". There is no "if" about it, I won't have them with me. I does answer the question you asked.

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## pgvoutdoors

Put down the bottle and move quietly to another thread

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Put down the bottle and move quietly to another thread


This conversation took a wrong turn. Over.

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## Sourdough

> did you even read the question before you ran off into the woods to hide?  It asks for leadership advice, if you not a leader fine, but telling us you are going off on your own doesn't answer the original question.  give it a break!


Phil, I just reread it five times, and I see nothing in the original post that even infers the subject of leadership. Sorry.

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## klkak

My wife could not make it, so I would not try it.

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## beetlejuicex3

Lightweight gear is a must:
Reduces calories and water needed.
Increases speed.
Reduces exhaustion.

Personally, I think a 50 mile hike with your family to a BOL is a risky proposition at best.

If that's what you're planning I would arrange to make the trip in a group.  Safety in numbers.

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## Rick

If a situation occurs requiring a bug out on foot, can you do it. Yes

Or if you have family and friends going with you, can they  make it on foot. Yes. There is really nothing too difficult in walking 50 miles unless you have some physical limitation. Then you may have to find some other option. 

A motorized vehicle would be most peoples first choice  to travel any real distance, but that option can be eliminated for a  variety of reasons. Think about grabbing a Bug out Bag and getting your  family and yourself out of town quickly. You need to travel at least  fifty miles to your closest safe haven. Where I live, this would be a mass exodus. Being around people becomes camouflage. It will be the individuals that would be in trouble if an armed antagonist were involved. That's the reason schools of fish and herds of animals stick closely together. The individual stands a better chance from predators.  

If you set out on your own but came across a group of people that asks  for your help, what concerns would you have. Intentions would be my first concern but that would be mitigated by what the group is made up of. Women and kids, for example, would not pose a great physical threat. All men, on the other hand, would. My second concern would be speed. What ground can we cover with the group and that would be dependent  upon the threat that forced us to leave in the first place. 

The group does not know  each other and working together has been a problem.
I'm not certain what your thought process is here. If we don't know each other how did we have trouble working together? 


Approach this scenario in the general sense and not personal.

Bugging out has occurred throughout time immemorial. It's not anything particularly special to us. There are myriad examples of both individuals and groups covering quite large distances successfully. A lot has to do with luck. Running into an armed patrol can happen to anyone regardless of how careful or how good you are. Sometimes it's just luck. Most of the time they are referred to as refugees as we would be if we are bugging out.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I read it.....My leadership is done in the pre planning. I have ZERO plans on leading a group of people that I do not know the who, what, when, where, why of them. I will be concerned with my GF, her son and I and what it takes to get from point "A" to point "H" as effectively and efficiently as possible. I have no desire to be a leader as you suggest to strangers. 

No good deed goes un-punished and helping those that either did not prep or are just lost and wandering is a very good way for a good deed to go bad. 

The question of the op does not ask for leadership roles. It askes, can you make it/can you or yours do it...."IT" being travel on foot for at least 50 miles and would you help a group of people. 

Most have answered that question as YES they can do it (and have practiced it) and No, they do not want anything to do with other people. 

Berating a person because their plan does not follow YOUR views and ideas as a "LEADER," when in fact your question or scenario does not mention a leadership role in any way seems a lil short sighted for someone who is questioning a leadership role in others.

YOUR plan may include being a savior and help to others, most peoples plans for themself and family DO NOT INCLUDE becoming a rescue team. This is rightously so as far as I am concerned.  

My GF and her son and I, due to logisitics will most likely be apart if an emergency happens. So we both will be on our own, waiting for one or another would be very dangerous in an emergency. Best to head out, work the plan and meet up at either one of the way points or at final point. 

In an emergency that would require us to BUG, then NO, I do not want contacts with groups of people that need "Help." Thats a good way to get killed or worse. I would avoid them if possible and if not, I would just be on my way, if they started trouble, I and my GF are prepped to handle it effectively and efficiently, now there is leadership.  

If I or others are Ill and a bug needs to happen, Hell yeah, I expect to be left behind and they should too. We are not talking about just taking a hike to smell the roses, we are bugging for a real reason. Real leadership is planning, working the plan, adjusting on the fly when the plans actions change and do not take risks that may get you or yours killed. 

I do not survive or thive by committie or groups. I do not ask for permission to survive and do not ask for a show of hands if one action is better than another. 

Do I care if the masses are not prepped, yes, very slightly though and I do my part to help people get educated PRIOR to an emergency. When the emergency happens, I need to look out for me and mine. I am NOT a rescue crew, nor am I a liberal wannacrat looking to position myself in any kind of leadership role except for what I and we have planned.

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## Rick

Man, you guys are cold. I'd bet if some woman and a kid asked any one of you for help you could not look that kid in the eyes and say no. Civilization is built on helping one another. That's the ONLY reason we've made it this far, this long. If I went down helping someone else then I went down for a good, unselfish cause and I'll be rewarded for that. There are certainly worse ways to go. Now mount those packs and let's get a move on.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Rick, yes, before the emergency, I think I have shown in my posts and my lifestyle that I am willing to help anyone. After the BUG or emergency, no thanks, a soft heart will cause a dead body. "KIDS," and women have killed many a servicemen and women currently and in the past. I do not discern between the gender or age. Strangers are well strange and in an emergency (case in point a drowning victim.....if you go to help the person and do not know what you are doing, they will take you down with them.) ..... I am sorry Rick, as cold as it sounds, I will just not be in a helping mood. My responsability will be to me and mine.

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## Rick

(Note to self: If I encounter Mike along the way, just keep walking). Okay, have it your way.

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## tipacanoe

Even in Maine where I live 50 miles doesn't get me anyplace but where more people are,  so I will just be staying put.  If the foe who ever that is puts a missile in the middle of the ship yard or the ex-Brunswick Naval Air Station, it won't matter any how.  In the past year both of my knees have started giving me problems that would keep me from walking any where near that distance.

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## Rick

You could still do it. Here's the plan for your wife. 

Step 1. Rest awhile
Step 2. Drag tipacanoe
Step 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

OK I'll play. Seeing as I have a family with 2 very young ones that will NOT be able to move quickly or quietly on their own accord. As a solution we have horses. Able to make quick movement when needed, able to carry heavier burdens than people. They are our main "Worse case scenario" BOV. Travois can be rigged from nearly nothing to carry even heavier/larger burdens.(Like the sick or wounded).

As for leadership, Mine is the final decision, although I am open to input from the group. As for any outside groups encountered, avoidance is of first priority assuming there are none that need help/assistance. In a Bug-out situation, is NOT the ideal time to accept newcomers, UNLESS they are willing to follow directions without fail. In a Bug-out situation is not the time to take on untrained/unfamiliar people to your group. At first contact is when hyper vigilance of said group will be of most importance, But trust would be earned, not given. In this scenario, with the added burden, the horses would be used for the weak and infirm and burdens. They are also our last ditch food source, which is my decision alone as to when they become food instead of transportation. Animals senses are better than ours so they are also an "Early warning" device. Also I am not adverse to giving up the Leadership role should someone else prove to be more capable, although some of my/our stuff will never be relinquished as "Community property". It may be used for the common good, but I would retain ownership, and final say in matters concerning them/it.

Leadership is a burden that many are not willing to accept, while others think it is their God-given "right". In my experience, neither of those initially make good leaders, although they can be groomed for the role. Some need to have confidence boosted, and others need it broken. But you know that. :Tt2:

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## OhioGrizzLapp

* sips coffee and eats honey laiden waffles and watches the ongoing show......

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## your_comforting_company

> 1. bug out on foot, can you do it. 
> 2. family and friends going with you, can they make it on foot. 
> 3. Think about grabbing a Bug out Bag and getting your family and yourself out of town quickly. You need to travel at least fifty miles to your closest safe haven.
> 
> 4. a group of people that asks for your help, what concerns would you have. The group does not know each other and working together has been a problem.
> 
> Approach this scenario in the general sense and not personal.


1. I do a lot of walking, so yes, there is no doubt in my mind that I could do it. 50 miles is no sweat, unless it's summertime, then you sweat when you're sitting in the shade, LOL.
2. I think the kids could make it, though I might have to slow my pace a little and take more breaks. Might have to drag the mrs. lol.
3. My family is my only concern. Friends better hump it if they want to meet up with me, and only one or two even know where I'm going. If they don't think enough about the current state of affairs to give any consideration to this scenario now, then they aren't worried enough for me to worry about them. I gotta look after my own.

4. My concern would be just how much I have exposed myself to this "group". Do they know how much supplies I have with me and do they want to take them from me? Probably. If at all possible, I'll be avoiding any groups of people. Large groups attract attention and in the case of having to move to a "safe haven" I want as little attention as possible. If the group is unavoidable, I'll give them some directions, wish them the best of luck, and keep moving.

My route has been planned and committed to memory, so even with no map or compass, I could get there, seldom crossing any major roads or other places that might leave me exposed and visible. 

When did Noah build the ark?






before the flood!

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## Sourdough

> Man, you guys are cold. I'd bet if some woman and a kid asked any one of you for help you could not look that kid in the eyes and say no.


Depends...............How ugly she is. And if she has anything of value to trade. (Hell, I have been asking women for a little love, compassion, and empathy for my needs, since I was 17 years old, I have learned that women have no problem saying.....NO).

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## OhioGrizzLapp

"Pitty" love is a deep and dark abyss............she would prob steal your knickers anyways, best not to take em off at any time. Most women would just say "NO" on principal due to no door on the outhouse, some women do have basic standards yanno..... 

I am wondering if a woman would even stop to ask for help from a guy dressed for muddy golf and carrying odd weapons in the first place... she would prob hug her child and side step the strange man in the knickers....... especially when he is yelling "Playing Through....." We can just call you "Nanook of the 9 Hole" .......Please, please, please tell me you have checkered argyle wool socks.... if NOT... I will gladly send you a care package with a pair and some eclectic Cleveland food fair like perogies in a can, canned bacon from Yoders (a staple food here in Cleveland).......

I can just see SD telling people while he is wearing his knickers... "Hey, I am the leader of my Klan," that if nothing else will have people skirt him with a lil wider stride LOLOLOL 

The real question is... will he pose like Jackie Gleeson for "Money Shots."

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## hunter63

Well, that was intresting, see what I miss when I put down the comput?
Can some one outline the bullet points?

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## MidWestMat

> Long range movements by foot have inherent concerns that effect everyone differently. The focus here is walking, lots and lots walking. As an experienced backpacker, wilderness guide, and US Marine, I've felt the toll of hard miles on the trail. I've seen the limits of many people and they very tremendously. Fifty miles for one person may be no concern, but to another it might as well be the end of the world. This may be true for the very young, the elderly, the sick, or unfit. 
> 
> If these people are your responsibility how would you handle it?  Some of these people are my responsibility.  I would hande it by adjusting the speed of travel to the maximum SAFE and SUSTAINABLE speed.
> 
> What if fifty miles turns into hundreds of miles. If the BO changes to hundreds of miles it changes LOTS.  The travel accomadations will become even more relevant as few people have the conditioning and stamina for hundreds of miles on foot.  It requires changes in protocol for interacting with other groups as trade of skills and resources become necessary as well as a changing security dynamic where it may become advantageous to travel with another group that seems 'right'.  If arrangements don't work out you just move on without them.
> 
> Again, if the group wasn't family, how could a person lead such a group.  A person leads a group first with having vision, second by communicating vision, third by coordinating the groups knowledge and skills to accomplish the vision.  Those who share the vision will follow.  If the group can't share your vision or you theirs' than you cannot lead them.
> 
>  How do you resolve conflict?  By listening, by considering everyone's personality and needs both individually and collectively, by using Godly principles.  If someone cannot accept the conflict resolutions than they must be seperated from the group. 
> ...


  The journey on foot will serve to exacerbate all problems because of the differing capabilities and  needs of the groups individuals, and clusters.  In a random group the most difficult challenge would be to get those who were more fit and better supplied to undertake in the shared responsibilty of those less able.

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## pgvoutdoors

Outstanding comments everyone.

I have no intentions to push someone into a leadership role in their own bug out plan. This is an open forum, a source for information and guidance. The leadership I'm looking for is in the form of sound advice. *What we need to focus on is foot travel and what concerns people should have when required to do it, be it solo or in a group.* We have many experienced people on this forum that can approach this issue from different directions. Fifty miles is just a starting point, figure that you'll be on foot for a long time. *The question is not - would you bug out on foot, but rather what a person should be concern about when on foot.* Yes, violence may be your main concern for avoiding groups but avoidance is not an option in many cases. Staying focused on your own needs is good advice but may be harder to do than you think. *Whether or not you would lead your family or a group of people on a bug out, approach this scenario as if you were advising a group of people of the concerns of a foot bug out.*

As we see, most would rather focus on ones own situation than have to take on others problems. A bug out in a vehicle is much easier to avoid contact with people but one will find it much harder if not impossible while on foot. Coordinating rally points for family can be very hard especially if the family is scattered over many miles.

Bug out supplies are limited to what each person can carry, young children don't make good pack mules nor does the elderly. Some people my be caught without any bug out supplies at all. Being able to collect useful supplies along the way is important. What do you look for first?

Food and Water: these supplies are very heavy, limiting how much can be carried. This will be a problem on long treks as the availability of food and water may be spread over great distances. You may not be able to carry all you need to get you the next resupply. Rationing then becomes a required skill. This may be easy enough for some people but a much harder thing to do with children. A lack of food will most defiantly lead to a lack of energy, health issues, and many psychological issues. How each person handles this will be different.

It's important to recognize that it's not a given that a single person will avoid all the problems that a group of people have. The fact is, they have many of the same issues and some unique to solo travel. A person must be very confident in their own skills and their ability to turn their back on society. Can most people do this? Not likely.

*Consider the following topics:*
Physical condition
Psychological problems
First Aid concerns with walking
Food
Shelter
movement of supplies
navigation
weather and time of year
conflict with others
leadership skills

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## BENESSE

> If a situation occurs requiring a bug out on foot, can you do it. 
> *No doubt.*
> Or if you have family and friends going with you, can they make it on foot.
> *Chances are we'll be alone.*
> A motorized vehicle would be most peoples first choice to travel any real distance, but that option can be eliminated for a variety of reasons. Think about grabbing a Bug out Bag and getting your family and yourself out of town quickly. You need to travel at least fifty miles to your closest safe haven. 
> *Unfortunately we don't have a safe haven destination unless we count family living several states away. The plan would be to stay out and linger longer in places that feel safe, all the while moving to where the family is.*
>  If you set out on your own but came across a group of people that asks for your help, what concerns would you have. The group does not know each other and working together has been a problem.
> *Too many variables to enumerate, but... my gut feeling will tell me if helping and sticking with the group would be beneficial or just inviting trouble. If there's no potential, I'd help as much as possible before running along. (w/Mr. B)
> I trust my gut feelings, they've never let me down so far. It's when I try to override them that I ultimately get disappointed.*
> ...


I generally believe that survival is more viable in a well run, well organized group where every member has a purpose and a job. Being part of it would be my preference. Short of that, I'd prefer to make it alone. 
In my business we work in teams where I've been both a member and a leader at different times, and I can say from this experience that there's nothing more painful or disruptive than working with difficult people. 
In that case you can accomplish much more if you're alone.

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## Justin Case

I know I am probably not answering this in the way you want,,,,,  But,   I grew up here, I know the location of many mines within 50 miles,,  I would be able to lead people to those,   Thats gotta be worth something, ? I also know the location of a couple fresh water springs,,    I could make it on foot ok,  If i encounter other people that need help,,,, Yes, i would help them and share my knowledge of the area,,  I dont think I would really trust ANYBODY under such a situation,,  so I would always watch my back,,,  I would prefer to go it alone in a mine shaft ,,  I think a person would be much safer if you remove the danger of other humans..

(BTW,  Happy Belated Birthday Pgv  :Smile:  )

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## Rick

> Coordinating rally points for family can be very hard especially if the family is scattered over many miles.


That's why it's critically important that everyone has a communication plan. You are guaranteed that whatever happens will occur when the family is scattered. Murphy wouldn't have it any other way.

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## randyt

as men make plans God laughs. nobody is exempt from the three F's.

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## JPGreco

Considering the parameters of the question changed like 4 times, so I'll try.

Situation:  I must BO on foot a minimum distance of 50 miles.  Maximum distance ON FOOT is 70 miles because most situations would force me away from NYC, which would be 70 miles the other direction of travel.  Only other option is north by boat, then hiking.  This is true for a good 99% of the population in my area because heading towards the city in most situations would not be good.  The only real exception to this is weather related, which would negate a vehicle for the most part because of traffic congestion.

Primary goal:  Get family to safety.  My immediate family would be able to make it.  Some of my extended family in the area and closest friends have very young children, which would make it more difficult.  The real question is where to go for safety considering my logistics.

Travel style:  It would be near impossible to avoid people.  Either direction creates a bottle neck at the end of the island to wait for a boat or to walk across the bridges.  Even grabbing a small boat to move on my own would land me in a highly populated area across the sound.  Again, whats true for me is true for the majority because of logistics.

Since it is impossible to avoid people if I have to move, I may tag along with a group.  I would not take leadership role so I could leave the group if I so chose.  Since it is unavoidable, I would be very guarded about what I have and would want to be armed at all times.  I would not hesitate to end someone who tried anything that threatened my survival.  However, since being in a group is unavoidable, I would offer what help I could without dimishing personal supplies.  This includes and bushcraft knowledge, first aid knowledge, etc, that I would be able to share with the group.  I would want to make myself valuable to them without making them rely on me.  This you cannot generalize or not answer personally.  The only answer in that regard is avoid people who seem dangerous.
If its a group that is arguing and cannot get along, I will not be joining.

Now, I do know that my tendency is to play the savior and in my area, since its difficult to avoid people on the move, my other option would be to take command and lead a pack.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Ok, the op has been hittin the shrooms. I am done with this thread.

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## pgvoutdoors

> Outstanding comments everyone.
> 
> I have no intentions to push someone into a leadership role in their own bug out plan. This is an open forum, a source for information and guidance. The leadership I'm looking for is in the form of sound advice. *What we need to focus on is foot travel and what concerns people should have when required to do it, be it solo or in a group.* We have many experienced people on this forum that can approach this issue from different directions. Fifty miles is just a starting point, figure that you'll be on foot for a long time. *The question is not - would you bug out on foot, but rather what a person should be concern about when on foot.* Yes, violence may be your main concern for avoiding groups but avoidance is not an option in many cases. Staying focused on your own needs is good advice but may be harder to do than you think. *Whether or not you would lead your family or a group of people on a bug out, approach this scenario as if you were advising a group of people of the concerns of a foot bug out.*
> 
> As we see, most would rather focus on ones own situation than have to take on others problems. A bug out in a vehicle is much easier to avoid contact with people but one will find it much harder if not impossible while on foot. Coordinating rally points for family can be very hard especially if the family is scattered over many miles.
> 
> Bug out supplies are limited to what each person can carry, young children don't make good pack mules nor does the elderly. Some people my be caught without any bug out supplies at all. Being able to collect useful supplies along the way is important. What do you look for first?
> 
> Food and Water: these supplies are very heavy, limiting how much can be carried. This will be a problem on long treks as the availability of food and water may be spread over great distances. You may not be able to carry all you need to get you the next resupply. Rationing then becomes a required skill. This may be easy enough for some people but a much harder thing to do with children. A lack of food will most defiantly lead to a lack of energy, health issues, and many psychological issues. How each person handles this will be different.
> ...


Location plays an important role in your planning. Long Island, NY is a good example of being bogged down in traffic. I would guess that all methods of getting to the mainland will be by foot only. New York city will be in grid lock. Many people there don't even own a car and rely on the mass transit system. Panic in a big city will most defiantly congest the outbound road systems.

Wide spread power outages, fuel shortages, and financial issues all could cause an inability in fueling your bug out vehicle. You may make it for a while on what you have to start with but eventually you will need to refuel, you and millions of other people. For most, that means hitting the road on foot.

*What are the main psychological problems that will arise when someone is thrust into leaving the a motorized bug out and into an on foot bug out?* _(And yes we already have determined that there are scary people out there to contend with.)_

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## BENESSE

> Ok, the op has been hittin the shrooms. I am done with this thread.


 Well, stop the presses, then!
I don't want to go on, under the circumstances.  :Sneaky2:

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## BENESSE

> New York city will be in grid lock. Many people there don't even own a car and rely on the mass transit system. Panic in a big city will most defiantly congest the outbound road systems. For most, that means hitting the road on foot.
> *What are the main psychological problems that will arise when someone is thrust into leaving the a motorized bug out and into an on foot bug out?* _(And yes we already have determined that there are scary people out there to contend with.)_


Since I have no choice, and have learned to live w/o owning a vehicle for the last 22 yrs., the psychological aspects do not apply to me. I walk everywhere, I know my surroundings intimately, and the only challenge would be dealing with biological/nuclear weapons. That's a whole 'nother book series.

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## pgvoutdoors

*One very unnerving situation will be sleeping outdoors.  Even a vehicle give some sense of security.* *For anyone with little or no experience living in the wild, this can be a very scary prospect.*  When your on the move there's no getting familiar with you surroundings.  Dealing with the weather, insects, poor living conditions and the prospects of a predator (man or beast) will undermine confidence and the sense of well being.  Being alone will compound this problem for most.  Some may display uncontrollable fear and become a burden to the group.  *What can be done to assist a person in this situation?*

*Traveling through urban areas by foot during a wide spread emergency can be one of the hardest things to do.*  Everything is questionable; when to travel, how to navigate, and where to take shelter.  Your ability to move about on foot is a plus, and it gives you more flexibility than a vehicle, but it's slow and demanding.  It is debatable whether it's better to be in a small group or on your own.  You may not have a choice as most of us have some responsibility to others like family.  *What are some of the things one should consider when walking out of an urban environment?*

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## BENESSE

> *One very unnerving situation will be sleeping outdoors.  Even a vehicle give some sense of security.* *For anyone with little or no experience living in the wild, this can be a very scary prospect.*  When your on the move there's no getting familiar with you surroundings.  Dealing with the weather, insects, poor living conditions and the prospects of a predator (man or beast) will undermine confidence and the sense of well being.  Being alone will compound this problem for most.  Some may display uncontrollable fear and become a burden to the group.  *What can be done to assist a person in this situation?*
> Give them a simple task to keep their mind focused on something. Gather wood, fetch water, doesn't matter what...being busy breaks  counterproductive obsessing and allows people to channel their fear into doing something useful.
> *Traveling through urban areas by foot during a wide spread emergency can be one of the hardest things to do.*  Everything is questionable; when to travel, how to navigate, and where to take shelter.  Your ability to move about on foot is a plus, and it gives you more flexibility than a vehicle, but it's slow and demanding.  It is debatable whether it's better to be in a small group or on your own.  You may not have a choice as most of us have some responsibility to others like family.  *What are some of the things one should consider when walking out of an urban environment?
> *


You want to be as inconspicuous as possible. Blend in, wear drab clothing, (no bdus) minimal baggage to weigh you down, myob (no eye contact or engagement on any level) super aware, purposeful, quick. Break up large groups and designate randezvous points along the way. Identify potential red flags ahead of time and have "timed" contingency plans. For a start.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I have a 7 year old daughter...I have no doubt she will be having fun if we actually had to do this. The reason is it is what we do! I am a little dissappointed in alot of the response to this thread.
She would be an asset to me, we would overcome 50 miles with a smile!

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## BENESSE

> I have a 7 year old daughter...I have no doubt she will be having fun if we actually had to do this. The reason is it is what we do! *I am a little dissappointed in alot of the response to this thread.*
> She would be an asset to me, we would overcome 50 miles with a smile!


Why would that be, CS?

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## pgvoutdoors

Benesse - Staying inconspicuous and maintaining a low profile is a very important point. The display of value in any form could lead to unwanted attention. Bug out bags are an necessity, as well as durable clothing, but during hard times these items could make you a target. You may own a nice Gregory backpack and a set of North Face rain gear but showing it off could be a mistake. The answer to this problem - camouflage it. Not with hunting camo but cover the pack with old dirty rags and wear old clothing over your good clothes. Dirty yourself up a bit, become Harry the Bum.  :Thumbup1:  Benesse.

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## pgvoutdoors

Cowboy S - The abilities of the young can never be underestimated.  As a BSA Scoutmaster for 16 years I've seen children accomplish great things.  The more they test their limits the better they get. A seven year old child is very capable but not as capable as most adults.  Being able to walk long distances is a personal asset for anyone.  Focusing on children, a bug out on foot can have tremendous psychological effects on them thus turning a walk in the park into a nightmare.  You can't expect to train the Innocent in the horrors of a emergency bug out.  You can however train the adults in how to handle the children in case of such of an emergency.

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## pgvoutdoors

*Your Walking Now and On the Move!*

*What are your navigation options?*

When traveling solo, all the navigation is up to you!

When traveling with a group, navigation and route planning can be discussed.  Route reconnaissance can be done to confirm safe routes before the main group moves up.  This can be a great benefit to groups with slower moving people.  For the slower moving people, stepping into a bad situation could have tragic consequences.  A good route recon could prevent that.   *What other precautions and movement methods could be used to help a group on foot?*

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## pgvoutdoors

*Walking by foot means taking care of your feet!*
*It's time to bug out -*
You've just picked up your children from school and you're walking your way out of town. Soon you realize that you six year old girl has fancy little strap on dress shoes and she is already starting to limp. *What can be done and what first aid concerns should be addressed?*

Many woman that work in the big city wear tennis shoes to work and switch into their dress shoes once they arrive at the office. It's much easier when traveling the mass transit systems. Getting caught in a bug out situation with the wrong shoes can be a big problem for anyone. *Consider winter time in your area, are you always wearing a pair of winter boots or have a pair with you? Even cold rain and wet tennis shoes can stop you in your tracks. What can you do to protect your feet if you do not have the required footwear?*

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## pgvoutdoors

*Help, I can't walk any longer?*

A family of man and wife with two young teenage children have made it out of the mid-size town they live in.  It's been three days of hard walking and the husband says he can no longer walk due to a swollen knee.  They're now traveling the back roads of a rural area with thirty miles to go to meet up with other family members.  The husband is ashamed that he is letting his family down and has become very paranoid that they will be overtaken by ruthless scavengers.  What can the wife and kids do?

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## pgvoutdoors

*Get out first and get out fast, can it be done on foot?*

It has been suggested that the best approach to bugging out is to be the first one out of town and stay ahead of the pack. Nice idea if your able but what are the chances of that. *By the time that most people realize that bugging out is a good idea, well, most people will be trying to bug out.* And if you are the first one out, who to say you wont be the first to catch up to the group ahead of you - and now your in the back of some other pack? Hmm.

The fact is, if you are forced to bug out on foot forget about being in front even if you know where the front is. *The bigger question is how long do you wait before you decide to go? Is there any advantages to letting the first wave or two push their way up front? If you hold out for things to calm down, would your group have a better chance?*

Obviously what ever the threat, it has been determined that it's time to move. You must evaluate the current risks and determine how much time you have to work with. Being on foot your not going to get far fast. *When should you move, may be a more important factor than getting out first.*

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## pgvoutdoors

*Physically Fit, what are you talking about?*

I live in the Midwest near Cleveland Ohio, a prime location for this example. Many Americans live the good life but not necessarily the most physically fit one. Our winters here put an extra twenty pounds on you in the drop of a snow flake. I can't say the summers are much better. This is not unique to Ohio, many, many Americans are soft.

A bug out on foot would make many people wish they were dead, and in some cases death is a real possibility. I believe this is why many people want to believe they will never have to hoof it in a bug out situation. I'm in good shape but given a choice I would take a bug out vehicle over walking any day. But sense this thread is on bugging out on foot, lets approach it from that standpoint.

Many of us would be caught off guard if we had to set out on a physically demanding road trip. Our general physical condition is not best suited for running, or even walking for our lives. Don't fool yourselves by believing you would never have to take to foot to travel. If your whole bug out plan revolves around a SUV, you may want to make a plan-B. Am I suggesting you start a physical conditioning program as a part of your bug out plan, it couldn't hurt. But, most of us know that wont happen.

So what will happen when the time comes to walk your way to greener pastures? I can give you one piece of advice from the many of thousands of miles of walking with a pack on - the body can take a lot, much more than you think, but your mind will determine whether your able to make it 90% of the time.

As pointed out earlier, regular walks with everyone in your family will not only build a stronger body but a stronger mind.

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## pgvoutdoors

Well ladies and gentlemen that's all for now.  If you read the thread to this point you know theres much more to be discussed.  Think about the situation you might find yourself in and what other may have to deal with as well.  You may not want to deal with a group of people but the fact is one of the hardest groups to deal with is family; and most of us are stuck with that problem.

Remember - Lead, follow or get out of the way!

Good night.

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## BENESSE

PGV, you've brought up some excellent points to consider, all which particularly hit home for me. As I mentioned many times before, I prepare for the absolute worst (probable) situation with the body/mind being in the center of all preps, at _all_ times. It's a never ending job.
No matter what else I assembled, acquired, learned and stashed in large quantities, if my body isn't prepared to withstand the extraordinary challenges it will surely be put through, everything else becomes less important, IMO. 
Don't need to tell anyone how hard this is...how I'd much rather buy another back-up to a back-up, than get my a$$ in gear to exercise or run another mile in the rain. How I'd much rather put it off (and have) for another day when I have more time than just 15 minutes before work. How I can justify with the best of them why not do something I _know_ I should, but just don't feel like it at that particular moment. 
There'll be many things we'll have to do WTSHTF that we won't feel like doing (much worse than what we're facing now) and that's where will power and the right mindset become supremely important. I ask myself this every day about something or other: if you can't _make_ yourself do x now, what makes you think you'd be able to do it under more adverse conditions? We are all hedonists at heart and minimizing unpleasant tasks is what comes easy. The easiest being..._our body_.

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## pgvoutdoors

Benesse - You hit the nail on the head on that one. It's obvious that the better the physical condition we're in during the time of an emergency, the better your chances to get through it are. A routine exercise program would help all of us, but committing to one is no easy task. This point is where Benesse is right on the money, how mentally strong are you when it comes to doing things you don't wont to do? Strengthening you mind is as important as strengthening your body. We think of preparing our selves for an emergency is doing everything we can that is directly related to survival. But, there's so much more that can be done in our everyday lives to prepare us. Starting with being diligent in doing the things we really don't wont to do.

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## JPGreco

Sorry, but the discipline to do things daily that you don't really want to do is very different from how to handle the emotional and mental stress of a life or death situation.

The mental discipline to do those things is also a separate issue from the actual physical aspect of what those things are.  Yes, keeping yourself in shape and having supplies will benefit you, but the mental discipline to do those things aren't a guaranteed transfer of a beneficial skill in a life or death situation.  The assumption that if I am disciplined in doing things day to day in my life will mean I will do important things in a disaster has an inherent flaw in thinking.  In my day to day life, the things I do don't have an immediate impact on my surviving.  I can miss a day of working out or not buy some item related to survival.  In a life or death, I'm forced to be diligent about certain things because they have an immediate impact on my survival.  One will not replace the other.

The only advantage of the mental discipline to do those things is in being prepared for the situation.  Being prepared will reduce the mental, physical, and emotional stress of any situation allowing you to handle it better than most unprepared people.

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## BENESSE

> Sorry, but the discipline to do things daily that you don't really want to do is very different from how to handle the emotional and mental stress of a life or death situation.
> 
> The mental discipline to do those things is also a separate issue from the actual physical aspect of what those things are.  Yes, keeping yourself in shape and having supplies will benefit you, but the mental discipline to do those things aren't a guaranteed transfer of a beneficial skill in a life or death situation.  The assumption that if I am disciplined in doing things day to day in my life will mean I will do important things in a disaster has an inherent flaw in thinking.  In my day to day life, the things I do don't have an immediate impact on my surviving.  I can miss a day of working out or not buy some item related to survival.  In a life or death, I'm forced to be diligent about certain things because they have an immediate impact on my survival.  One will not replace the other.
> 
> The only advantage of the mental discipline to do those things is in being prepared for the situation.  *Being prepared will reduce the mental, physical, and emotional stress of any situation allowing you to handle it better than most unprepared people*.


The point I was trying to make is that being prepared _also_ involves preparing you body to physically handle the challenges of survival in grueling circumstances. Up to you how you do it, but it's an ongoing thing. 
You maintain your car, your house, your garden, you rotate your supplies, clean and practice with your firearms. It should go without saying that your body deserves _at least_ as much attention. Doing things right requires discipline. That's why they are so fond of it in the armed forces. It works. That's why there's a difference between say, our troops and the Iraqi troops. 
To _me_, this is a no brainer...but hey, different strokes for different folks.

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## Rick

The thing that struck me about 911 and those survivors immediately impacted by it was either a stark disbelief in what was occurring or stark terror. There were a tremendous number of folks that had that deer in the headlights look and it seems to me that the initial response to some cataclysmic event such as that would be total disbelief. I don't think there is any psychology of survival involved. It's pretty much adrenaline and auto pilot. At least that's what I saw. 

I've said before that I like to study old photographs of refugees. Those folks that have been through it. One things that stands out in almost all photos is that deer in the headlights look. Oh, there may be some of you that are highly trained in exotic situations that would be A number 1 in a bad situation but, on the whole, I think people just try to get from point A to point B (and maybe don't even know where point B is) and aren't giving any thought at all about how to think through their survival. All they are thinking is the bad stuff is behind them and it doesn't look like bad stuff in front of them so that's where they are heading. 

At least that's my cut at it.

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## JPGreco

> The point I was trying to make is that being prepared _also_ involves preparing you body to physically handle the challenges of survival in grueling circumstances. Up to you how you do it, but it's an ongoing thing. 
> You maintain your car, your house, your garden, you rotate your supplies, clean and practice with your firearms. It should go without saying that your body deserves _at least_ as much attention. Doing things right requires discipline. That's why they are so fond of it in the armed forces. It works. That's why there's a difference between say, our troops and the Iraqi troops. 
> To _me_, this is a no brainer...but hey, different strokes for different folks.


I should have replied with quote to PGV, cause it was more his post that I was replying to.  Your post is preparation and just that.  You are preparing yourself, but the mental discipline that you have to do those things may not be of any value in a life or death situation.  What is of value is what you accomplished because of that discipline prior to the event.

As Rick said, the disaster has huge impacts on people.  Some people lose all hope who have the skills to survive.  I would never assume my discipline to go for a run every morning would equate to the mental fortitude to ride out the emotional stress of a SHTF scenario, which is what I took from PGV's post about pre-SHTF mental discipline being of value.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

[QUOTE=pgvoutdoors;284604]Remember - Lead, follow *or get out of the way![/*QUOTE]

Fat chance! I'm sure this all sounds good but not realistic or even well thought out. Historical accounts, current events and even the concensus of most of this forum demonstrate that most will be digging in to defend what they have including thier territory. 

There are ways to deal with this but just as there are those that would take what you have there will be others such as myself that will be content to just allow you to suffer your fate. The "haves" will determine the fate of the "have not's". 

Leaders will be no more welcome than...

There is a difference between bugging out and becoming a refugee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kQSg0z6vEA

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## pgvoutdoors

> I should have replied with quote to PGV, cause it was more his post that I was replying to. Your post is preparation and just that. You are preparing yourself, but the mental discipline that you have to do those things may not be of any value in a life or death situation. What is of value is what you accomplished because of that discipline prior to the event.
> 
> As Rick said, the disaster has huge impacts on people. Some people lose all hope who have the skills to survive. I would never assume my discipline to go for a run every morning would equate to the mental fortitude to ride out the emotional stress of a SHTF scenario, which is what I took from PGV's post about pre-SHTF mental discipline being of value.


*Some very interesting points have been brought up, lets look at it a bit more.*
Does a persons attitude, character, and day-to-day discipline contribute to his ability to function better in a crisis? I believe yes, but is it true for most? Lets look at some comparisons.

Do athletes gain only technical skills and physical endurance by practicing?

Dose the military first phase of boot camp only make the men and woman more physically strong and better at cleaning toilettes?

Is having teenagers take a job in high school just for them to earn money? Is having them clean their room "even though it will just get dirty again" important for more than just a clean room.

Have you ever worked with a person that seems to lag behind the rest of the workers on a regular basis? Is he really doing his best?

*From my experience I believe mental endurance is built through a life long process.* We have all endured life's problems and hardships to some degree, some greatly more that others. How we responded to those hardships imprints to our mental toughness. You've all heard the saying " what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger". I would believe this is true most of the time. Yes, hardship can make a person completely break down and non-functional, but mentally what point did they start?

Have you ever put off to tomorrow what you could of done today? I believe we all have and it's because we choose to. It could be as simple as house cleaning, taking the kids out to play, visiting family, or balancing the checkbook. Or, it may be losing weight, exercising, going to church, or many other things.

*Mental toughness comes from mental victories*. *The job to be done may not have any baring on surviving in a crisis, but the fact that you are the type that get jobs done, does.* Too much of the time we go through life doing what we have to do. By pushing yourself to do other than the minimal, you will build the mental blocks that may make the difference in a crisis.

I believe our daily activities can be used to prepare ourselves for a crisis.

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## BENESSE

PGV, that's how I think as well. It's supported by my own experience and that of others who have succeeded or failed. To be honest, I learn more from failure which is why I try very hard not to repeat it. 
There will be new ones for sure, but I'll be danged if I'm gonna repeat those that clearly don't lead anywhere good.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> PGV, that's how I think as well. It's supported by my own experience and that of others who have succeeded or failed. To be honest, I learn more from failure which is why I try very hard not to repeat it. 
> There will be new ones for sure, but I'll be danged if I'm gonna repeat those that clearly don't lead anywhere good.


The world is not heading anywhere good.

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## Rick

Phil - I think mental toughness is something you have or you don't. I don't know what creates that edge but it's something inherent in the person. At least that's been my experience. I suppose if you train long and hard there are distinct advantages and when you come out the other side of the training you better able to cope with a more broad range of negatives but the mental toughness is either there or it is not. 

We know all the tales of POWs that just gave up and died. Why did they give up when others did not? They had the same training. I think, and this is only my opinion, that they didn't have that mental toughness to begin with. I don't blame them. To me it's just something you are or are not born with. Like blue eyes or blond hair. 

I've encountered some really weird stuff in my life, probably the same as everyone else. I've been threatened, had guns pointed at me, been in situations I wasn't all that certain that I was going to come out of it okay. But I was never scared. I don't know why. I can't explain it. I've always been pretty calm and laid back about stuff. Even when I had guns pointed at me I was thinking about the best way to get out of the situation, where the best cover was, how many rounds did he have. Just tried to think it through. I can only come to a conclusion based on my experience and education and for me it boils down to you either have it or you don't.

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## klkak

[QUOTE=Alaskan Survivalist;284655]


> Remember - Lead, follow *or get out of the way![/*QUOTE]
> 
> Fat chance! I'm sure this all sounds good but not realistic or even well thought out. Historical accounts, current events and even the concensus of most of this forum demonstrate that most will be digging in to defend what they have including thier territory. 
> 
> There are ways to deal with this but just as there are those that would take what you have there will be others such as myself that will be content to just allow you to suffer your fate. The "haves" will determine the fate of the "have not's". 
> 
> Leaders will be no more welcome than...
> 
> There is a difference between bugging out and becoming a refugee
> ...


If enough "have nots" want your stuff, you will soon be a "have not"

I don't care how far you think you can walk in a day or how many guns and bullets you have. There is always someone who can out walk you, out shoot you and take what they want from you.

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## klkak

> The world is not heading anywhere good.


especially not with people that have your mind set.

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## Rick

Careful. Let's comment on the ideas not the person.

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## BENESSE

> The world is not heading anywhere good.


No it isn't. But here we are, still luckier than most in so many ways. I'm gonna try to enjoy every minute of being alive in this imperfect world of ours because being miserable and _then_ dyeing would be such a waste.

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## Rick

That's probably the very same thought my great, great, great grandfather had...and my great, great grandfather...and my.....oh, you get my point.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

[QUOTE=klkak;284680]


> If enough "have nots" want your stuff, you will soon be a "have not"
> 
> I don't care how far you think you can walk in a day or how many guns and bullets you have. There is always someone who can out walk you, out shoot you and take what they want from you.



Good thing that is not my plan.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> especially not with people that have your mind set.


No mindset will replace the worlds depleting resources. It's just a matter of how the pie is going to be devided.

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## Rick

Now that right there is funny I don't care who your are.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

The Arabs raise the price of oil because of emerging markets in asia, We convert more food to ethanal raising the food at the root of mid east riots raising the price of fuel. The only debate is slow or fast collapse. The slow controlled collapse that is happening will have the less prepared all ready in place on the prime real estate for survival that will become a gauntlet for the lower 48 areas. A head start is the best thing a person on foot can have.

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## klkak

Why do I even try.

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## Rick

I think you tried to glue an octopus together with tentacles that don't match. Read my lips...okay, you can't do that....read my typing. This stuff has all happened over and over and over. The government isn't that good to pull off a conspiracy that big. They can't even keep the southern border secure how could they possibly start a New World Order?

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## pgvoutdoors

Rick - I believe there's a certain amount of hard wiring that people are born with, but  I don't believe it ends there. I have to admit that some people seem to be born leaders or just have strong personalities.  The real go-getters...  Maybe they started with better wiring than others and built on that.  I would guess that to be true to a certain extent.

Let's apply this to walking.  While serving in the Marines we were required to force march as part of our training.  For those who are unfamiliar with this type of training, it requires you to walk in formation, with full combat gear, at a pace of 3-4 mph on level ground.  This is a pace that requires most people to walk as fast as they can without breaking into a jog.  The routine is 55 minutes walking and 5 minutes rest.  The units train by starting out with a five mile march, then increase the distance each consecutive march.  Now you would think this is to physically condition the Marines to travel long distances on foot, and it is, but it's not physical conditioning they need most.  It's physiological condition to build confidence that the can do it.  The Marines are already in outstanding physical condition.  The hardest part of force marching is pushing yourself mentally.

This is true with recreational backpacking. I've taken many physically fit people on trips and seen them quit before we even get started.  They chose to go on a trip that was way out of their experience level.  But, other people that did work-ups or had prior backpacking experience did great.  If their all in good physical shape, is the determining factor for success based solely on what they were born with?  Can a person build mental strength?

As a Scoutmaster were do many work-ups before the boys head out on a High Adventure trip.  This is to help them to get into good physical condition and have them test their limits.  As a Scoutmaster, just like a platoon sergeant, you watch your people to see who may be having trouble.  You must then evaluate if the problem is physical or mental. Building confidence in a person is a very real thing.  Again, if the person is born with a strong mental attitude, the easier the task of building confidence.  I believe people that make an effort to push them selves in their day-to-day lives can learn to push them selves in a time of crisis.

The bottom line , I believe we can build on what God gave us at birth.  I can't see the benefit in the "wait and see method" or "you are what you are".  Is this a matter of nature verses nurture, maybe?  I've had great success in training both adults, children, and Marines, and I can say the technical aspect is only part of the overall picture.  I have to admit that some people seem to be useless and lazy no matter what - just born that way.  Are they the majority, by no means no.  People do build character and confidence in themselves as they traveling life's path. Can we push ourselves from time to time and expect a benefit for it, I believe so.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> I think you tried to glue an octopus together with tentacles that don't match. Read my lips...okay, you can't do that....read my typing. This stuff has all happened over and over and over. The government isn't that good to pull off a conspiracy that big. They can't even keep the southern border secure how could they possibly start a New World Order?


Would "Preparing for the worst, hoping for the best" be to much of a stretch?

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I just checked something for my own knowledge about my child. Many of you have posted your BOB here and there. So I got curious, what does my 7 yr. old daughters school bookbag weigh? 20lbs. (just checked), she weighs 85lbs. Just an FYI that is 23% of her total body weight. So if it were me at 195lbs. at 23% that would be 44lbs. So, then I weighed my BOB it was 30 lbs. now I feel like a big sissy! I gotta add 14 pounds just to keep up with my 7 year old little girl! She lugs it around all day for short runs. No real info here just found it interesting.

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## pgvoutdoors

> *Help, I can't walk any longer?*
> 
> A family of man and wife with two young teenage children have made it out of the mid-size town they live in. It's been three days of hard walking and the husband says he can no longer walk due to a swollen knee. They're now traveling the back roads of a rural area with thirty miles to go to meet up with other family members. The husband is ashamed that he is letting his family down and has become very paranoid that they will be overtaken by ruthless scavengers. What can the wife and kids do?


*Let's see what we can come up with.*

We'll take the last part first, the husband's mental state of mind.  Pain, fatigue, personal blame, and hyper concern for his family's well being has weaken him mentally.  It's time to take a break and get off the road.  They will have to find a safe place to hold up and evaluate their situation.  Have the children take lookout positions, out of hearing distance of a low speaking voice of the parents.  This is for security as well as giving the adults privacy to talk things over.  The wife must comfort the husband and reassure him that they are OK for now.  Put the focus on the family as a whole, reassure him as a family they will get through any problem.  Personal blame can cripple a person, do all that you can to support that individual.  Addressing the pain associated with his knee is important.  Any relief here will directly help his mental state.  Work through the situation and make a plan of action.  Rest is important, it will help reduce the stress. Food and water can also help.  Gather the children and bring everyone up to date.

Now for the concern of continued travel and the movement of the father. He may be able to walk after rest and proper first aid.  Expect things to slow down and he may not be able to walk at all in the near future.  *Question - How can they move the father when he can no longer walk?*

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## klkak

Preparing for the worst and hoping for the best is a good approach. Just as long as your idea of the "worst" is not unrealistic.

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## hunter63

Yes, but she is young and you are, well, older than her.........LOL
I gotta tell ya I am not gonna be humping much of anything, or for very far, unless I really HAVE to.
Lighter is better. 
Lets see, your doughter is 7 years old, 85# @ 20#,..... and you are X years old, 195# @ 30#, so I am 60somethingish at 170#, and I thinking maybe 12-15# 
Sale On Gear, LOL  
But thats just lazy old me.........

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## klkak

Question - How can they move the father when he can no longer walk?

I don't think its realistic to think that 3 average women could move a man very far.  It would probably be better to either hold up until he is able to continue or leave him in as secure a place as they can find. Move on to meet the rest of the family then with their help, return and retrieve the husband.

I wouldn't want to try moving a man 30 miles with 3 healthy men.

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## Sourdough

> I just checked something for my own knowledge about my child. Many of you have posted your BOB here and there. So I got curious, what does my 7 yr. old daughters school bookbag weigh? 20lbs. (just checked), she weighs 85lbs. Just an FYI that is 23% of her total body weight. So if it were me at 195lbs. at 23% that would be 44lbs. So, then I weighed my BOB it was 30 lbs. now I feel like a big sissy! I gotta add 14 pounds just to keep up with my 7 year old little girl! She lugs it around all day for short runs. No real info here just found it interesting.


When the Japan Womens Climbing Team climbed Mt. McKinley some years back, I remember being shocked that each lady carried 100% of her body weight up the mountain. If she weighed 93# she carried 93# of freight. Very humbling.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Yes, but she is young and you are, well, older than her.........LOL
> I gotta tell ya I am not gonna be humping much of anything, or for very far, unless I really HAVE to.
> Lighter is better. 
> Lets see, your doughter is 7 years old, 85# @ 20#,..... and you are X years old, 195# @ 30#, so I am 60somethingish at 170#, and I thinking maybe 12-15# 
> Sale On Gear, LOL  
> But thats just lazy old me.........


I am 38 Hunter...still wet behind the ears to you old guys.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> When the Japan Womens Climbing Team climbed Mt. McKinley some years back, I remember being shocked that each lady carried 100% of her body weight up the mountain. If she weighed 93# she carried 93# of freight. Very humbling.


I need to eat more rice!

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## klkak

> When the Japan Womens Climbing Team climbed Mt. McKinley some years back, I remember being shocked that each lady carried 100% of her body weight up the mountain. If she weighed 93# she carried 93# of freight. Very humbling.


The most I've ever tried to carry was when an M-60 gunner. At the time I was 5' 10" and 180lbs. My total load was 117lbs. This included LBE, ruck with personal gear plus M-60 and 300 rds of ammo. My AG had it worse then me. He had his ruck, LBE, M-16 + 360rds 5.56, My spare barrel, and 300rds of 7.62.

Those were the bad old days!

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Preparing for the worst and hoping for the best is a good approach. Just as long as your idea of the "worst" is not unrealistic.


The difference is I can afford to be wrong with my unrealistic preparations. I have not suffered any negative consequences of self reliance, food storage, field training and at my level of preparation small problems like power outages rate right up there with bad hair days. If I am wrong so much the better.

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## Sourdough

The heaviest load I ever packed was near 200# (a very large Brown Bear hide (Green) w/ head and paws still in). But the Hardest is always packing Moose Antlers through Alder thickets. A full moose hide (Green) will go well over 250 pounds, but I never packed one. Only ever packed Moose capes they will run 130# to 160#.

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## klkak

Good for you. For me however I have to be very aware of things like a power outage. Which are more likely to affect you and I then marauding hordes of scavenger from the big city.

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## Rick

Hey, CS. Be cautious about how much weight she carries in that book bag. Her young bones are still growing and hossing a lot of weight day in and day out can have detrimental effects on kids. Here's a report you might want to look at: 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2016404.shtml




> Would "Preparing for the worst, hoping for the best" be to much of a stretch?


Well....okay then. 

@ Phil - Personally, I'd keep the kids in a core setting. Close at hand. Having kids stand lookout is a recipe for trouble. You know what their attention span is like. After about five minutes they are drawing in the dirt or throwing sticks. I'd keep them close to keep them quiet and to keep an eye on them. I think Klkak is right. They aren't going any further. Find a sheltered hill that affords some view if possible or at least higher piece of ground. Then wait it out to heal. 

The reason you are leaving has to be considered here as well. Armies around the world have used refugees as a way to slow advancing opponents or to create disruption in the opponent by overwhelming their transportation and logistical capabilities. If this is the type of scenario then staying put might be a better option anyway. If the reason is nuclear, biological or chemical then a tough decision might have to be made to send everyone on ahead the father will have to do what he can.

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## klkak

> The heaviest load I ever packed was near 200# (a very large Brown Bear hide (Green) w/ head and paws still in). But the Hardest is always packing Moose Antlers through Alder thickets. A full moose hide (Green) will go well over 250 pounds, but I never packed one. Only ever packed Moose capes they will run 130# to 160#.


I would have rather carried a green hide here in Alaska then that damn M-60 where I was at.

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## klkak

> Hey, CS. Be cautious about how much weight she carries in that book bag. Her young bones are still growing and hossing a lot of weight day in and day out can have detrimental effects on kids. Here's a report you might want to look at: 
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2016404.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> Well....okay then. 
> 
> @ Phil - Personally, I'd keep the kids in a core setting. Close at hand. Having kids stand lookout is a recipe for trouble. You know what their attention span is like. After about five minutes they are drawing in the dirt or throwing sticks. I'd keep them close to keep them quiet and to keep an eye on them. I think Klkak is right. They aren't going any further. Find a sheltered hill that affords some view if possible or at least higher piece of ground. Then wait it out to heal. 
> ...


It is much more likely that a natural disaster would be a reason to move then some sort of martial action.

Oh wait I can see it now.

Obama and the Federal troops vs Palins tea party and the states militia.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Running away may be needed so you should be able to run with load or be able to drop it fast.

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## Rick

I agree. I was just using that as an example. My point was the reason for having to vamoose will be an important consideration on whether the father CAN stay or will have to leave no matter what (rising tidal surge, flood, eminent collapse of dam, etc.)

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks for that Rick...My Daddy sense has often told her to unload the unnecassary stuff. She has never complained of back pain at all. Just Dad being Dad, now I have to give it another look. One thing I'll say though I see so many frail kids who eat at McDonalds nearly every evening. I'll stick with my Daddy sense and keep the unnecassary stuff out. There is a big difference in a child full of micky D's and computer games and my angel.

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## Rick

I ain't runnin' anywhere with load. That ain't gonna happen. Hand me the life preserver, put a bulls eye on me, whatever. I...ain't....runnin!

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## klkak

> Running away may be needed so you should be able to run with load or be able to drop it fast.


Run away from what?

What the freak is so frightening that someone would train and prepare to run for their lives from.

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## Rick

> There is a big difference in a child full of micky D's and computer games and my angel.


If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that......... :Innocent:

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## pgvoutdoors

> Question - How can they move the father when he can no longer walk?
> 
> I don't think its realistic to think that 3 average women could move a man very far. It would probably be better to either hold up until he is able to continue or leave him in as secure a place as they can find. Move on to meet the rest of the family then with their help, return and retrieve the husband.
> 
> I wouldn't want to try moving a man 30 miles with 3 healthy men.


Very good points...  I must clarify that the children are young teenagers but not identified as male or female.  This is because, as you pointed out, it will not make any difference if your planning on carrying the father on a stretcher - anyone that has ever carried a stretcher knows it just cant be done.

Moving on to meet up with the rest of the family thirty miles away and then return for him may be the only way.  This would be a very hard decision and a hard process.

Everyone - Think about it a bit more, put yourself in their place, what are all the options?

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> It is much more likely that a natural disaster would be a reason to move then some sort of martial action.
> 
> Oh wait I can see it now.
> 
> Obama and the Federal troops vs Palins tea party and the states militia.


What I can see is a spineless responce from Obama should Russia or China decide they want Alaska for its resources. Not many votes up here.

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## klkak

> If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that.........


You just wish you had a nickel

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## Rick

Oh, seriously. Seriously? You guys are like the silly uncle nobody wants to talk about but you're still family. It's still America. We won't let nothin' happen.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that.........


Around here you'd be pretty bad off! I despise the way kids are raised today. I'll see your nickel and raise ya' a dime she can whoop the 10 yr. old boys!

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## klkak

> What I can see is a spineless responce from Obama should Russia or China decide they want Alaska for its resources. Not many votes up here.


I can't believe you are that paranoid. Maybe you should bugout now so you'll have a good head start on the screaming commies hordes brandishing bayonet festooned AK-47's.

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## Rick

Hey! Come on. You can debate the merits of any idea but let's not get personal.

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## pgvoutdoors

> Hey, CS. Be cautious about how much weight she carries in that book bag. Her young bones are still growing and hossing a lot of weight day in and day out can have detrimental effects on kids. Here's a report you might want to look at: 
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2016404.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> Well....okay then. 
> 
> @ Phil - Personally, I'd keep the kids in a core setting. Close at hand. Having kids stand lookout is a recipe for trouble. You know what their attention span is like. After about five minutes they are drawing in the dirt or throwing sticks. I'd keep them close to keep them quiet and to keep an eye on them. I think Klkak is right. They aren't going any further. Find a sheltered hill that affords some view if possible or at least higher piece of ground. Then wait it out to heal. 
> ...


Rick - the children are young teenagers not small children, but that doesn't guarantee they can be competent as a lookout even for a short time.  It would all have to depend on how mature they were.  It's still a good point, you really don't want to let children out of your sight.

Out of control adults can lead children into a panic quickly.  A major problem when walking your way out of a crisis.  *What type of comforting can be done to help children stay calm?*

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Run away from what?
> 
> What the freak is so frightening that someone would train and prepare to run for their lives from.


9-11 proved we will not be able to keep isolated from the worlds problems. I prefer to watch it on television but we have been too lucky for to long. The most immediate reason for running in a slow collapse senario is a rise in crime do to failing economy to escape criminals.

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## klkak

> Hey! Come on. You can debate the merits of any idea but let's not get personal.


Yes Rick, I'm done with it.

PGV, Sorry we crapped on your thread.

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## BENESSE

> *I ain't runnin' anywhere with load*. That ain't gonna happen. Hand me the life preserver, put a bulls eye on me, whatever. I...ain't....runnin!


Kinda hard if you're already full of it.  :Winkiss: 
(who luvs you, baby?)

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Ok, I'll play serious. As a Father it is imperative that I stay calm and level headed. This alone will transmit to my child. All I have to do is ask for her help and she'll give 100%. I'll say this it is not instilled in ALL children. It has more to do with what was than what is!

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## pgvoutdoors

> Yes Rick, I'm done with it.
> 
> PGV, Sorry we crapped on your thread.


All is well, you can even learn something from the off topic crap, as long as it doesn't go too far.

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## Rick

CS - I agree with you. I'd go a little further and say that giving a kid some responsibility for the group like carrying the first aid kit or some other essential will go a long way in gaining a buy in from the child as well as feed their sense of contributing to the good of the family. Something age appropriate, of course.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> CS - I agree with you. I'd go a little further and say that giving a kid some responsibility for the group like carrying the first aid kit or some other essential will go a long way in gaining a buy in from the child as well as feed their sense of contributing to the good of the family. Something age appropriate, of course.


Neat you said that Rick, she is the keeper of the first aid kit now. More often than not it is Daddy that needs a bandaid!

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## BENESSE

> Rick - the children are young teenagers not small children, but that doesn't guarantee they can be competent as a lookout even for a short time.  It would all have to depend on how mature they were.  It's still a good point, you really don't want to let children out of your sight.
> 
> Out of control adults can lead children into a panic quickly.  A major problem when walking your way out of a crisis.  *What type of comforting can be done to help children stay calm?*


Kids will need to be given a simple task as way to divert their fear into feeling helpful. That's true even with some adults.
Keeping busy really works.

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## Sourdough

> Kids will need to be given a simple task as way to divert their fear into feeling helpful. 
> Keeping busy really works.


kind of like this Forum...................hehehehehe

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## BENESSE

Here's a simple breathing exercise anyone can do when say, you're afraid (heights, shots, dentist) or have panicky (running film) thoughts at night. It even works when you feel nauseous.
When you do it, it's really hard to think of anything else except it.
So, try it...
1. Inhale slowly and deeply (all the way to your stomach) through your nose, to the count of 10
2. Hold your breath to the count of 10
3. Slowly exhale through your mouth to the count of 10
Repeat the whole thing.
What do you think?

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## pgvoutdoors

> Very good points... I must clarify that the children are young teenagers but not identified as male or female. This is because, as you pointed out, it will not make any difference if your planning on carrying the father on a stretcher - anyone that has ever carried a stretcher knows it just cant be done.
> 
> Moving on to meet up with the rest of the family thirty miles away and then return for him may be the only way. This would be a very hard decision and a hard process.
> 
> Everyone - Think about it a bit more, put yourself in their place, what are all the options?


If you have to move him, even if it's to a safer place, there are a few things that might be done.  As we discussed, a stretcher is an option but the family would not be able to carry him far.  They could wait for other people passing to help, but we know the risks of that.  A travois could be made and is much easier to pull on a road but still hard work.  You may be able to search the local homes and Farms for some type of wagon or cart to put him in.  You might be able to find some wheels to put on the travois, making it much easier to pull.  Before you give up on the continued movement of the family or leaving someone behind, take the time to consider all options.  Be creative and improvise.

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## klkak

> Here's a simple breathing exercise anyone can do when say, you're afraid (heights, shots, dentist) or have panicky (running film) thoughts at night. It even works when you feel nauseous.
> When you do it, it's really hard to think of anything else except it.
> So, try it...
> 1. Inhale slowly and deeply (all the way to your stomach) through your nose, to the count of 10
> 2. Hold your breath to the count of 10
> 3. Slowly exhale through your mouth to the count of 10
> Repeat the whole thing.
> *What do you think*?


I think I'm getting dizzy!

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## pgvoutdoors

> Here's a simple breathing exercise anyone can do when say, you're afraid (heights, shots, dentist) or have panicky (running film) thoughts at night. It even works when you feel nauseous.
> When you do it, it's really hard to think of anything else except it.
> So, try it...
> 1. Inhale slowly and deeply (all the way to your stomach) through your nose, to the count of 10
> 2. Hold your breath to the count of 10
> 3. Slowly exhale through your mouth to the count of 10
> Repeat the whole thing.
> What do you think?


I tried it and it does make you feel better.  I was told taking a deep breath Through your nose is a good stress reliever.  I have a card stuck on the pencil holder that says "Stop, Breathe, Think, Decide".  Many times it has helped.

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## Rick

I passed out at 6. How fast are you supposed to count?

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## BENESSE

Start with 5 and build up to 10.
Count in seconds--1 thousand, 2 thousand, etc--as you inhale slowly throughout. 
You should reach the count of 10 as you've made the last inhale.
Same with holding your breath for 10 and exhaling for 10. 
Your breathing should keep pace (be in sync) with counting. It requires some concentration at first, but it gets easier. 

When you inhale, be aware of air entering your nose and traveling down _all_ the way to your stomach. It needs to get there, whether you count to 5 or 10. If done right, you'll see your stomach expand.
When you hold your breath, you'll notice whether your holding it in your chest (you've stopped too soon) or your stomach, because your body will tense in those areas.
When you exhale, be conscious of air slowly traveling upward from your stomach through your lungs and exiting through your mouth. Your stomach will visibly deflate.

In addition to keeping your mind focused (and away from anxiety, fear, anger, nausea, pain, etc.) proper breathing exercises give you an infusion of oxygen that we seldom get enough of when we breathe the we do--short breaths that barely reach your lungs and never go beyond. Or when they do, it's usually when we yawn; and you know that feels good. 
Oxygen is restorative and can do wonders for body and mind.

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## Rick

Listen, sister. I don't know how you are put together but air doesn't go into my stomach. If it did I'd be a direi....a derir...a blimp.

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## BENESSE

Can't believe it!
OK.
Lie on your back. 
Breathe in deeply and continuously for as long as you can. (count 5-10)
See if your tummy doesn't rise...and deflate when you exhale.

If it doesn't, (which I can't imagine) then you're probably not breathing deeply enough. And you really should. 
I can explain why it would be beneficial but don't want to bore people who don't really care.

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## hunter63

> Listen, sister. I don't know how you are put together but air doesn't go into my stomach. If it did I'd be a direi....a derir...a blimp.


I try to put my air in my lungs, that stomach thing just fuels the "Blue Flame Machine" and Belch Maker............

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## MidWestMat

> Here's a simple breathing exercise anyone can do when say, you're afraid (heights, shots, dentist) or have panicky (running film) thoughts at night. It even works when you feel nauseous.
> When you do it, it's really hard to think of anything else except it.
> So, try it...
> 1. Inhale slowly and deeply (all the way to your stomach) through your nose, to the count of 10
> 2. Hold your breath to the count of 10
> 3. Slowly exhale through your mouth to the count of 10
> Repeat the whole thing.
> What do you think?


A quick pause to breathe well is an excellent tool for calming and focus, and even a little pain and exhaustion relief.

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## Winter

That gave me a nice headrush.

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## klkak

I think she's trying to teach us bio-rhythm breathing.

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## TangoFoxtrot

A plan, a good BOB, and a loaded pistol.

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## Rick

Hey, my BOB is soooo big (how big is it?) My BOB is so big it's a Robert. (I slay myself. I really do).

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

The breathing technique is a really good one and is also used as an "Introduction" to Meditation. Both can help you stay calmer.

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