# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Making Stuff > How-to Tutorials Only >  Leaf Spring Knife

## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I got a little done on my new project to make a leaf spring knife. This will be a slow process so look back at the post and I will try and progress as soon as possible. Keep in mind I work fulltime and am raising a little girl. She graduates kindergarten today. I took the day off to treat her to icecream.


First I placed the precut pc. of leaf sring into a hardwood fire. The object here is to draw the hardened metal back to a more workable state. You need to reach 800 deg. F min. to accomplish this. Afterwards use a file, hacksaw, etc.' try and score the surface of the metal. The file and or saw should bite readily into the material. If the tool just rides on the surface then 800 deg. was probably not acheived.



Next you want to remove the scale from the metal. This stuff is rediculously hard to get off. I began by using 36 grit on a high speed angle grinder. Still it was tough to remove. You can use a rock wheel on the grinder to lightly score the scale and it becomes easier to remove with the 36 grit sanding wheel or a 10/1 solution of water/Hydrochloric acid is easier on the elbows, soak for one hour or until it loosens, use a rag or brush to remove after soaking. I didn't have hydrochloric on hand so at this point I still have more to remove. I will try and get back on this later today. Looks like I could use some tips on sharing my photos on here, any advice?

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## crashdive123

Looking forward to seeing the progress.

Here's some info on posting pictures.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=1318

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## bulrush

Good project. But please don't use a cell phone for taking close up pictures. They generally do poorly with closeups. A regular camera will often have a special mode just for closeups, it's called "macro mode".

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## Ken

> Looking forward to seeing the progress.


Crash, Cowboy is a Q.C. guy by profession - JUST LIKE WE ARE HERE ON THE FORUM!    :Thumbup: 

Care to explain our Q.C. Rules and Regulations to him?  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=2925

*Probably one of the best knives we'll get our hands on.*  :Innocent:

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Crash, [SIZE="1"]
> *Probably one of the best knives we'll get our hands on.*


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Still trying to remove the scale! 

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I drew out what I thought would be The Knife! Well the one I can't buy! I cut it with a Crafstman Indusrtial Grinder and cutting wheels and Grinding wheels.


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I took advantage of the material and cut about 80% of the way through and just broke it off with a 3 lb. shop hammer.


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OK, if your grinder groans from the work, let it rest! Reminder to self.


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Keep cuttin"


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Keep cuutin"



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Step back and look at her curves!



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My Daughter (Cheryl) is learnin' She was helpin" the whole way through!

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I guess my leaf spring knife is roughed out!

It is gettin' late ! I promised this post! I actually have gotten a little more done on the leaf spring knife. You all" will have to wait untill tomorrow to see just how far. The grinding discs were standard cutting and 36 grit grinding. I knew I had it drawn back when the vice jaws were scratching it. Oh yaeh and a wet stone course is great for polishing off the scale!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Ken,

ISO 9000 IS EVERYWHERE!

Regards,

David S.

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## Rick

That's going to be one great knife. I like the outline you've chosen. Looking forward to seeing more pics. 

You're daughter is a cutie. She looks like a pretty good supervisor. She just might give the QC department a run for their money!

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## crashdive123

Nice work.  Looking forward to the progress reports.

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## bulrush

Those pics are great! And you have a nice little helper. And that is one thick knife.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Yeah it is thick, I am using rear leaf springs off of a 1983 GMC fullsize pickup. The neat thing is the springs are tapered so the knife at the handle is about 3/8" then tapers down to about 3/16" at the tip of the blade. I haven't started shaping the thickness profile yet. I do intend for it to be thick I want to be able to use the butt as a hammer and be able to strike the back of the blade with a log and not worry about damage. I am wrestling with how to take the slight arch from the handle to the blade tip out? I am not sure how I am going to do that? Any suggestions? I have some ideas, but curious if anyone has done it or what a brainstorm might bring to the table.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Please note in an earlier post I mention using Muratic Acid and water to remove scale. It should have been Hydrochloric Acid and water. I edited the post.

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## laughingbeetle

I know next to nothing about metalsmithing, other than what I have learned on this site.  My best guess would be to heat the metal until it is maleable and pound the carp out of it, to get rid of the arching.  But then, you seem to REALLY know your stuff, so there are probably reasons that you know of, that I don't, as to why that is a bad idea.  I do know that over heating can change the properties of the metal for the worse, or maybe for the better... There are a million and one questions I could ask about metalsmithing...I just keep reading, taking notes and hoping I can get a forge set up so I can play.  Excellent work on the knife so far...I really enjoy your description of the processes too.  Thanks for sharing.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks for the encouragement. Well I have decided how I am going to straighten it. Yes I could easily do it with a bigger hammer. I often joke to coworkers just get a bigger hammer! But no I am concerned it will disturb the grain and also may leave tool marks that might not be tough to remove. I am going to try heating it with a propane torch and straighten it. I will post pics as I go. I will need a forge too and have plans for that next, I will need it to harden this project. I will post it as well. There is a process called work hardening where as you do beat the material with a hammer to harden it, but I will need to study that one myself.

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## crashdive123

Cowboysurvival - did you use the edge of the angle grinder in picture 5 to form the detail on the handle portion?

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Crash,

Yes I did. 2 things to consider, you won't see a guard on my grinder which allows me to attack the material at any angle necassary. THIS IS NOT SAFE! I HAVE SEEN THESE GRINDERS HURT PEOPLE GOOD! MINE HAS HURT ME GOOD! I will admit that the contour for my forefinger cutout was a bit rough, I used a barrel sander in my drill to accomplish the shape I was after. I will show more in my next post. Using the vice you can turn the knife to any position and should plan each grind with safety in mind. Mostly though just force yourself to take your time! Guess I will start putting together a post for tonight. You guys questions provides great encouragement!

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## Rick

> MINE HAS HURT ME GOOD!


I could be wrong but I think only a masochist would use that line. :Whistling:

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## crashdive123

Thanks - I just got in the blanks that I had ordered from a sketch.  They used a plasma cutter, and I was a bit disappointed on how they turned out.  I'll probably start working on them this weekend - just trying to pick up all the tips that I can from folks that know what they are doing.  Thanks.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Thanks - I just got in the blanks that I had ordered from a sketch.  They used a plasma cutter, and I was a bit disappointed on how they turned out.  I'll probably start working on them this weekend - just trying to pick up all the tips that I can from folks that know what they are doing.  Thanks.


I wish I had a plasma cutter! We use plasma at work it leaves you with an angular cut called "Kerf" and you will want to flatten it, if you use a grinder I would suggest a grinding wheel and not a cutting wheel. The nice thing about the barrel sander is it leaves an almost polished finish. So probably a grinder followed with the barrel sander would be my recommendation. I did get my blade straightened by heating it at 1/3 and 2/3 of the total length and beating it with a hammer and yes it left marks from the hammer but it is flat! So the coffee Icon was right, I am terrible with names especially when they are not real names! I will work on that!

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## laughingbeetle

No worries!  Glad I could help!!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> I could be wrong but I think only a masochist would use that line.


The love of a material like steel could tend to make that statement true. After all you have to love what you do for a living and a hobby! Once I was using a Dewalt wire wheel (nasty mean tool) on this same grinder. The wheel bit into the part which I was holding in my other hand (should have been in a vice). It gouged into the hide on the back of my hand quite nicely! So after mumbling some profanity and bandaging myself up. I returned to my work only to have the episode a second time this time removing the bandage and more of the hide in the same spot! Gotta love it!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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Int this picture I am showing the barrel sander used for the fore finger slot after grinding to finish the shape. I will use it again when I make the antler handle.

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Shown is where I heated the knife at 1/3 and 2/3 the total length to flaten the arch of the leaf spring I then just worked it with the hammer untill it was flat.

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Here is the progress I made tonight I finished up by polishing out the tool marks and removing the remaining scale with 80 grit sanding disks followed by 150 grit sanding disks. I have also started to thin the blade. This is where (Crash's Belt Sander) would do great, unfortunately I do not have one so I will improvise and adapt!

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## rebel

That's very nice!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Good Morning all! Waking up and having my coffee. I got curious what the size of this knife is as it had no predetermined size. It measures right at 12" long now, with a 6 1/2" blade. The blade is now 2" wide and the thickness has thinned to 11/32" at the handle down to 3/16". The blade now weighs a whopping 1.8 lbs.! I am gonna need to lighten it up a bit don't you think?

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## crashdive123

Lighten it up?  Nah - just make sure your belt is sinched real tight before you put it in the sheath.

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## rebel

Well, you have an eye for knife design.  Did you figure out how you were going to take out the bend?

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## Rick

With no forge did you just use a torch to heat the knife?

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Yes, I did get the profile of the spring out (bend, bow) I used a regular torch which provided plenty of heat. I posted pics where I heated it (look back at the post), guess you guys missed it. One important thing I left out when using the torch at this stage it is important you let the knife air cool afterwards. Do not quench the blade!

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## laughingbeetle

Blade is looking great Cowboy!

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## RangerXanatos

Looking real nice!  With that weight, it's going to eat everything it comes into contact with like a beast.

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## vthompson

That is a nice looking knife, and I like the design that you have for it also. Just keep the pictures coming because I am anxious to see the finished product.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

It is HOT! outside so I decided to start on the sheath for my knife inside. I didn't have a peice of leather as big as I would like to have had. I said to myself in a survival situation you must use what you have on hand. I buy leather scraps from "The Leatherguy" on Ebay and have several small peices around here. So the design is dictated by what I have on hand. The wife says the wind is starting blow outside -hint- there is work to do outside. So this might not last long here is a pick just getting started.

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## welderguy

Looks great so far, cant wait to see it finished.

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## preachtheWORD

A couple years ago I made a sword from a leaf spring.  It is about 3 feet long and weigns 9 pounds!  It's a little heavy for practice use in battle.

The hardest part was straightening the spring!

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## Runs With Beer

Nice job, Should be stought for hell.

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## Gray Wolf

Great work CS!

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## panch0

Thanks a beast of a knife. Good job!

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## Gray Wolf

CS, knife is looking good! Are you putting a convex edge on it?
Also, if the weight is a concern, you could do a little skeletonizing. A few holes or an oval cut. Might have to heat treat again, but if you feel it would be more managable if lighter, might be a thought.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> CS, knife is looking good! Are you putting a convex edge on it?
> Also, if the weight is a concern, you could do a little skeletonizing. A few holes or an oval cut. Might have to heat treat again, but if you feel it would be more managable if lighter, might be a thought.


Yeah I am gonna try to thin the blade to a convex contour. It will be what makes or brakes it. I haven't decided on the best way without a benchgrinder or belt sander. Since the project was meant to be a survival project meaning make it with what I have I will be attempting to do it with the same grinder used before. I actually like the weight of the knife we can all go buy lightweight knives this one is meant to be a workhorse and i wanna retain some weight. I have gotten a little further on it and started an Whitetail antler handle. I will update the post soon, my parents are here for a visit from outta state so probably be next week.

Thanks to all for the compliments! My head is swelling up!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Crashes knife inspired me to get back to work on this one. I had been soaking antler in vinegar for the handle for more than 3 days now. For the record it doesn't work on large antler, it is still stiff as a board. Any ideas? I have heard possibly boiling it will work? Not sure what to try next.

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## crashdive123

No ideas, but why do you soak it?  A customer just gave me a couple of small antlers that I want to use as scales - haven't started researching how yet.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> No ideas, but why do you soak it?  A customer just gave me a couple of small antlers that I want to use as scales - haven't started researching how yet.


I am using the base of a whitetails horns that was on the decline. When they age they actually start producing less of a rack. Still a great deer but not a wall mount so of course I sawed off the horns. Anyhow I want to utilize the base of the horn which is where the "pretty" burly stuff is. Well the horns are curved in this section, so I cut a 5" section from the base and then cut that in half the longway for my handle, when cutting I followed the curve of the horn splitting it in 2 equal halves which now must be straightened. I had heard vinegar works, also boiling, and last you are supposed to be able to place a torch inside a pipe thus heating the pipe and you can then work the horn straight by burning it and forcing it straight working it against the pipe. The horns are about 1 1/4" dia. at the base. Any ideas?

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## crashdive123

> Any ideas?


Not me.  This is all new stuff for me.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

OK feeling better now... I just took a c-clamp and clamped one of the halves to my bench it went flat! so maybe vinegar will work. I think if it is allowed to dry naturally it may stay flat. We will see how it goes....

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## crashdive123

Cool.  Looking forward to seeing it.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Pics are forthcoming, like a few of us pics don't come easy! After I tell the ole lady to check out the canning website, she can load some pics for me. hehe!

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## crashdive123

Now that there's funny. DUCK I don't care who you are.

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## Ken

> Pics are forthcoming, like a few of us pics don't come easy! After I tell the *ole lady* to check out the canning website, she can load some pics for me. hehe!


Uhhh, does she read your posts here? Don't worry, I'll delete this one. Just lookin' out for you here. 

(The smilies aren't working. Been trying for 3 minutes. No luck.)

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I am keenly aware this is a big knife I am takin' pics of! Trust me!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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Here is the whitetail antler handle after soaking in vinegar for 3-4 days. It softened just enough to clamp flat. I have also thinned the blade on the front half. The blade is sharpened like an axe near the handle. I still have alot of shaping left to do at this point but plan to leave it a dual purpose blade capable of cutting like a knife, chopping, and splitting like an axe.

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I am not that patient so I decided to cook the handle flat to the knife this worked great and darkened the horn which looks good to me. I used spray olive oil to keep the antler from sticking to the blade.

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I am throwing in one of an old knife I made it just to look at and not very useful.

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## Rick

You need to repost your links. You picked the HTML version of code instead of the IMG code version. I tried to fix them but it would be quicker and easier to just repost them rather than me try to straighten up all the code.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Yeah I caught that too fixed it and forgot to hit save. Thanks!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Now the real test of how well you did drawing the metal back when you drill the holes for the handle, at this point it should drill like butter. I used a .147" drill bit and am planning to test 16 penny galv. nails and high tencil wire for pins.

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Still alot of shaping to do on both the knife and handle, followed by the final heat treatment. You cannot mount the handle permanately untill after the final heat treatment.

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## crashdive123

Great pics and progress.  Looking forward to seeing more.

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## Gray Wolf

Looking good Cowboy!


Would making a Bolster bring it together and cut down on your grinding, and also make it a safer chopper monster? Just a thought...

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks! I am calling it the CowBOUY! pronouced Cowbowie... Still workin' on it. I 'll have a new post tonight!

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## crashdive123

Oh sure....make me stay up late. :Smile:

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Oh sure....make me stay up late.


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I am pleased with the progress on the handle. One thing when your working with natural materials you have to let the shape of nature dictate the outcome! I still have alot more shaping to do.

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## crashdive123

I like the progress too.  Thanks for the update.

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## Pal334

A naive question (not having experience in these matters)?  Will you be grinding down the metal in the handle to conform to the horn material?

OOPS, should have read more carefully  :Smile:

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Pal, your right I will be for the most part grinding the metal back to the handle.

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## Ole WV Coot

This one has me curious. Blade shape and planned use is new to me. Keep us posted with pics on this one I want to know how it works.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> This one has me curious. Blade shape and planned use is new to me. Keep us posted with pics on this one I want to know how it works.


The blade I am making is not finished, but I do know you are refering to my earlier post stating the tip of the blade is thinned more like a knife and the base of the blade is sharpened like an axe head. When I started out to make this knife I did so with the thought in mind that I wanted to make the knife I couldn't buy. So it is big and it is heavy, I thought the blade could be used many ways. I'd like to hear what you all have to say related to the multipurpose blade design as it is now. I see it being a camp knife that would be in a sheath in my pack, not on my hip due to the weight. I will have a smaleer blade which is always at my side as well. I am hoping your comments will help me decide where I want to go with this blade before it is hardened. Another thing is I will finish the handle though leaving it removable and actually use the knife in it's annealed state before the final hardening to make sure it is what I was after.

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## crashdive123

For the blade that I'm making I had a similar thought process.  I wanted the larger belly to be able to take on choppin chores, while the flat blade area would work for smaller cutting chores.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks Crash,

At least I know now if I am off of my rocker then so are you! Serious I am not all that happy the current roughout I have on the blade. I may make the change in the blade more subtle. I am however confident it will do things my smaller knives won't. Another thing I wanted to point out to you about not having a forge. One thing we can both do to complete our projects without "building a forge" is simple. Dig a hole in the ground with a pc. of 2" pipe exiting into the bottom of the hole. Lay some bar stock or rebar etc accross the hole hook the hairdryer up to the end of the pipe and walla a simple forge.

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## crashdive123

A fire pit with a pipe and blower is something that I've considered.  Still haven't talked the wife out of her good WOK.  I do have a second cheap electric WOK, but somehow I don't think the aluminum that it is made of would survive a firing.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Cast Iron is my choice, was planning to use a brake disc, but just had a thought cast iron skillets or dutch ovens would also work. Don't get me wrong I would sacrifice the WOK or the brake disk or drum first as I like my cast iron, Just sayin' you can pic 'em up cheap at the thrift store as rust is not an issue neither is a broken handle.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> A fire pit with a pipe and blower is something that I've considered.  Still haven't talked the wife out of her good WOK.  I do have a second cheap electric WOK, but somehow I don't think the aluminum that it is made of would survive a firing.


Just explain to your wife how important your knife making is to the world!

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## Rick

I've never seen that design and I like the out of box thinking. You may have just started the next generation of survival knives!! In any case, I like the fact that you aren't afraid to try something different and you thought through why you wanted to make it. It won't matter a whit if no one else likes it (I can't imagine that happening, though) as long as it does what you want it to. Even if you decide it was a complete failure I'm going to guess you've learned a lot in the process. 

Keep us posted on this one. I'm anxious to see the finished product and the results of your trials with it.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks Rick! Yeah I am still confident in the design, I feel sure it will out perform my other knives related to the tasks it was designed for. I will do some trials once I am settled on the design. Check your PM.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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I shaped the handle a little more tonight... patience!

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## crashdive123

Look!  The mountains turned blue!  Drink it before it gets warm.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Well I figured I had to give ya'll something to scale by, you know something you can relate to!

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## crashdive123

Well OK then.  :Smile:   Nice progress by the way.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks Crash! Like you said and I quote " It feels good in my hand". Next I will drill some holes to balance it and lighten it.

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## rebel

Very nice knife!

OH!  "The condensation is calling.  Gotta go".

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Everytime you think you have invented something new, you look and some !@#$%^ already thought of it!

http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/surv...ife/index.html

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## Rick

Well, see, that one is just tacky. Plumb tacky. Yours, on the other hand, is a work of art.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Well, see, that one is just tacky. Plumb tacky. Yours, on the other hand, is a work of art.


I knida liked it. It does look versatile. Just wouldn't go well with my hat! LOL

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## crashdive123

> Everytime you think you have invented something new, you look and some !@#$%^ already thought of it!
> 
> http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/surv...ife/index.html


That's the knife that I said was out of my price range in post #2 that inspired the shape of the knife I was making.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=7094

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## panch0

Wow thats a hoss! You guys are making some pretty cool blades seeing these are your first or second. They are way better than my first.
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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> That's the knife that I said was out of my price range in post #2 that inspired the shape of the knife I was making.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=7094


Crash,

When I saw it I thought to myself it must of did some lending to your design. Good choice!

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## FVR

I like it, big time.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> I like it, big time.


Thanks FVR! Lets show it off!

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Getting close to time to forge it, and quench it! This is gonna be good!

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## crashdive123

Looking good.  I picked up some fire bricks today with a temporary forge design in mind.  Tomorrow (time permitting) I'm going to grind out a small knife and practice with temp forge.  I'll let you know how it goes.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Looking good.  I picked up some fire bricks today with a temporary forge design in mind.  Tomorrow (time permitting) I'm going to grind out a small knife and practice with temp forge.  I'll let you know how it goes.


Looks like we have to switch posts to forging now! I am going big on the forge! How about we start sharin' posts about the final hardening! Should benefit both of our knives. I went back and read your post and sure enough it was the same knife I stumbled on off of one of (Ken's) posts. Not sure how that happened??/..... Makes u say Hmmmmm!

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## crashdive123

I'll definitely post pics in the other thread.  Basically I'm going to mak a little box (open on ends) and drill a hole through one brick for the torch head.  I'll then use a brick on either end to partially close it up for heating.  Hopefully I can make the time to do it tomorrow, but I will practice on another piece first.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Here is a good link for those interested in making a knife or other tool from varying car parts.

http://www.anvilfire.com/index.php?b...0anvilfire.com

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Thanks to poncho for disclosing his secret tool for the plunge! Hint! Poncho your knowledge could help us beginners, time for another post! This enabled me to get the profile i wanted for the axe portion of the knife. I have added some holes for reduced weight more holes under the antler, still need to add more. I also added a bottle opener for (Ken) lol! Trying to decide if i want to file a saw back on it? I found out that a pre 90's leafspring is SAE 5160 which is high carbon content. I also have borrowed a Rockwell "C" gauge. I will try and test the hardness of the spring that is not annealed, the annealed blade, forged blade, and finally the tempered blade.

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## panch0

Cowboysurvival, another thing to beware of, that I have been warned of by veteran knifemakers is to not have any sharp corners especially a 90 degree corner. It is a highly possible point of failure. It could sheer or break the blade. Pros usually suggest rounding off corners instead of square. I can't really tell at the bottom of the blade if its rounded off or squared. 

-frank

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## panch0

Looks good btw.

-frank

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## crashdive123

I like the progress.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Cowboysurvival, another thing to beware of, that I have been warned of by veteran knifemakers is to not have any sharp corners especially a 90 degree corner. It is a highly possible point of failure. It could sheer or break the blade. Pros usually suggest rounding off corners instead of square. I can't really tell at the bottom of the blade if its rounded off or squared. 
> 
> -frank


Your right Pancho, Still have some radius cuts to make. I am aware of the radius, this knife is still in a rough out!~ Your comments are welcome, alot of them have mattered in the way I did the cutting..different with a grinder vs. a belt sander for sure, though I have found your tricks still apply.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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Slow and steady! My Makers Mark!

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## crashdive123

Now you're getting all fancy on us.  Nice work.  Hopefully I will finish mine tomorrow.  Fired it and attached the scales.  Now I just have to grind them to fit, polish and sharpen - oh, and test.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I just wanted to make sure you guy's knew my mark so you wouldn't get cheated by imposters! Ha

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## rebel

Nice! How does it work for ya?

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Rebel, It isn't finished but at this point it gets really sharp! follow the post and when finished I will pit it against a more typical survival knife and we'll see how it performs. I am building a forge now. I expect it will be knife of choice to have at base camp if I was bugging out. Probably want something lighter on a hunt and forage hike. But I expect it will be much more of a tool than the avg. survival knife. Next I am going to put a notch for a firesteel and a bone cutter on the back. This is my first so no holds barred I am experimenting a little! I am very pleased with it. Crash made a knife that will function similar to this and I really like it too! It is a great hobby for me as I like manipulating steel!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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Standin' beside my Buck 470

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I started cutting some teeth in it. Thought ya'll might want to see it without the handle. I used a dremel cut off blade to start the teeth. Maybe some more teeth are in order, still just takin my time and plannin' to use it on my 4th getaway! Probably finish the teeth with a hand file.

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## crashdive123

Nice work.  Thanks for the update.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

The teeth will be sharpened at opposite angles every other tooth.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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Lightening the handle with  a few holes and 82 degree countersinks.

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Time to weigh the leafspring knife once more!

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## crashdive123

It's coming right along.  Keep it up.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Just an FYI all the holes were drilled with a 1/2" chuck manual hand drill! Keeping with the spirit of doing it with what is available!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

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Just another angle....

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## Ravnari86

Wow Cowboy. Makes me wish I still has pics of some of the leafspring pieces I'd made years past. I think this one's officially inspired me to pull the 110 lb anvil back out of the garage and grab some more spring. Haven't worked steel for years. I suppose we'll see how rusty I've gotten.

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## crashdive123

Ravnari86 - I look forward to seeing some of your work.  In the meantime, how about forging your way on over to the Introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14

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## Rick

Here's a question for you knife making guys. Any reason you can't make a knife from an old lawn mower blade?

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Here's a question for you knife making guys. Any reason you can't make a knife from an old lawn mower blade?


Rick, I'll try and get you an answer on that lawnmower blade. I am not sure so I'll have to see what I can learn before answering.

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## crashdive123

I'm not one of those knife making guys yet, but I don't see why not.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/jnkstee1.jpg

The link is to a chart which I have been referencing. According to it lawnmower blades are "usually" 1085. I think it would make a good knife and maybe a great one.

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## crashdive123

Nice link CS.

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## panch0

I have asked this question on a Makers forum and the concensus was that lawn mower blades are too soft. If they were knife making steel when they hit something hard they would break instead of bending like a mower blade does. In otherwords they are meant to be bent before they are broken if that makes sense. I am sure you could make a knife out of it and get it sharp. I know a guy who does. It won't hold an edge as good or as long as a proven knife steel. The ones my friend makes look good and can be used to pry things, but what makes a good knife a good knife is the edge holding ability. The older blades where made of steel suitable for knives I believe. Now they are made of softer steel. Of course there could be some mower blades made that are made of good steel, I am no expert. An email or call to the manufacturer would help. USA knifemakers supply sells 1084 at a good price. With the amount of work I put into a knife, I wouldn't want to risk making a possibly inferior knife with an unkown metal. Not all steel is good for making knives with.
Just my .02 cents, and please don't get offended anybody by this. I also wanted to try out a mower for my first knife but was advised against it. I hope this makes sense and helps abit on mower blades.

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## crashdive123

Panch0 - is USA knifemakers supply the source that you use for your steel?

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## panch0

It is one of the places I get it from. The others arealso online they are  Admiral Steel, Texas Knifemakers supply, and Jantz. There is a guy that sells 1084 by the pound named Aldo Bruno.

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## crashdive123

Cool.  I'm working on the rest of the blanks that I have now (more practice) then it'll be time to start with a known quantity.

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## panch0

> Cool.  I'm working on the rest of the blanks that I have now (more practice) then it'll be time to start with a known quantity.


Make sure to post pics. This knifemaking is so dang addictive. If my wife found out how much I have invested she would kill me. :chair:

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## Rick

Thanks, Pancho. I can easily understand the soft metal of the lawn mower. I sharpen my blade every spring to start the lawn mowing season. It's very easy to remove a lot of metal if you aren't careful. And, you're right about holding an edge. It doesn't stay sharp very long. 

I didn't know if forging it would harden it or not. 

Thanks! I appreciate the info. Just seemed like it might work.

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## crashdive123

I definitely will.

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## panch0

Rick, I am just passing on what I have been told by more experienced guys. Alot of knife forgers do use springs like COWBOYSURVIVAL did. On a known steel you still have to heat treat it properly to get the full capability. I am going to use 1084 to learn how to forge cause it is easy to heat treat it myself.

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## Ravnari86

Just found a place to build a new in-ground forge, and pulled the old anvil, clamps, and grinder out. Off to find myself a few new pieces of spring tomorrow. Thanks a ton for the inspiration to start up again. Knife's looking beautiful.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Rick, I am just passing on what I have been told by more experienced guys. Alot of knife forgers do use springs like COWBOYSURVIVAL did. On a known steel you still have to heat treat it properly to get the full capability. I am going to use 1084 to learn how to forge cause it is easy to heat treat it myself.


1010, 1084, 1085 - These numbers are steel classification, you can then look them up and find the carbon content. The hardness, toughness, and 
edge holding capability are a combination of base material and heat treating process. A lawnmower blade can bend, bent several in the yard. It can be made to be hard through forging. A file and a leafspring are the same base metal, while the spring bends the file doesn't. This is a function of the hardening process. There isn't enough room here to get into the crystalline structure. My advice make your knife, you'll be on your way and as with anything else experience is everything. After the first one you'll know what would have improved your efforts. Metallurgy is a very complex body of knowledge. I'll try and post a chart that will show the carbon content by steel designation later. Here is a scenario for the survivalist in you. A disaster has occured and has placed you in a position where you must find food to survive. You have headed out to forage for food when you come upon some fish trapped as a stream has receded. You fashion a spear using your quite expensive knife and with a mighty plunge you miss and hit a rock the blade breaks as it is hard as metal comes and holds an edge forever. You scramble to find the broken blade but it has disappeared in the muck! Realizing this was your only blade of sufficient capability for alot of tasks that have helped you survive thus far. That lawnmower blade is looking pretty good from my house!

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## panch0

> 1010, 1084, 1085 - These numbers are steel classification, you can then look them up and find the carbon content. The hardness, toughness, and 
> edge holding capability are a combination of base material and heat treating process. A lawnmower blade can bend, bent several in the yard. It can be made to be hard through forging. A file and a leafspring are the same base metal, while the spring bends the file doesn't. This is a function of the hardening process. There isn't enough room here to get into the crystalline structure. My advice make your knife, you'll be on your way and as with anything else experience is everything. After the first one you'll know what would have improved your efforts. Metallurgy is a very complex body of knowledge. I'll try and post a chart that will show the carbon content by steel designation later. Here is a scenario for the survivalist in you. A disaster has occured and has placed you in a position where you must find food to survive. You have headed out to forage for food when you come upon some fish trapped as a stream has receded. You fashion a spear using your quite expensive knife and with a mighty plunge you miss and hit a rock the blade breaks as it is hard as metal comes and holds an edge forever. You scramble to find the broken blade but it has disappeared in the muck! Realizing this was your only blade of sufficient capability for alot of tasks that have helped you survive thus far. That lawnmower blade is looking pretty good from my house!


I guess I am looking at it in a different perspective. I am looking at it from selling a product and not making my own tool from what is available which COWBOYSURVIVAL is trying to do. In that case I could definitely see the thought process behind this. CS is also correct on the heat treating as a mowerblade is not hardened to its full potential. Again its all in the heat treat not the forging process. You could have a tool that will work with a mowerblade and would be a great project to do. Like I said my friend makes them and he makes some nice knives out of mower blades. CS is also correct on metalurgy being complexed. Its a long story to say the least. It is just the prism I was looking through.

I make knives in hopes of being able to sell them so I can continue to fund my knifemaking hobby. It is this reason I will only work with known steel and ask advice from makers who are very respected in the knifemaking world. I want to provide the person buying the knife to be satisfied by using a proven method with a proven steel. Thats just me and is why I made the previous comments in my earlier post. I was not trying to offend anybody but just give a different opinion. 

A knife that has been differentially heat treated will not break in your senario.   A knife heat treated this way could be bent more than 45 degrees and not snap.  Knives are made for different purposes. You wouldn't use a hunting or skinning knife for hardcore bushcrafting, unless you are in a survival situation. Also one could make a spear for fishing out of wood with a regular hunting knife. A mower blade would probably make a good chopper as machetes are not that hard either.

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## panch0

Another thing in the spirit of survivalism, if you had the chance you would use steel fishing hooks right? There was another thread here on how to make them out of sticks and thorns. I think it would be beneficial to master teqniques like that just in case also, just as making a knife out of a mowerblade. It is all about being prepared and being able to make due with what you have available to you. That is why I really enjoy reading through this forum and learning the techniques from guys who are more knowledgeable on the subject. It would not be a waste of time to make a mower blade and i hope nobody took it as me saying that.

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## Rick

Honestly, I can't imagine using my knife as a spear when a simple length of wood will do the same thing only BETTER!

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## chiangmaimav

This looks like a beautiful knife. Rambo made a knife from leaf spring in movie Rambo lV, which by the way was filed here in Chiang Mai. I was wondering, is there any way to do this without electric grinder?

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## crashdive123

> This looks like a beautiful knife. Rambo made a knife from leaf spring in movie Rambo lV, which by the way was filed here in Chiang Mai. I was wondering, is there any way to do this without electric grinder?


Sure.  A hacksaw, hand file and sand paper will remove, shape and smooth the metal.  It'll take quite some time to do it, but if you anneal the metal first to soften it up you can do it.

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## Rick

Or buy one from somebody.....just sayin'......

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Honestly, I can't imagine using my knife as a spear when a simple length of wood will do the same thing only BETTER!


Alrighty then! I failed to mention the fish that are stranded are bowfin. Good luck sticking those with your oversized toothpick! LOL

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Sure.  A hacksaw, hand file and sand paper will remove, shape and smooth the metal.  It'll take quite some time to do it, but if you anneal the metal first to soften it up you can do it.


I will be making a chainsaw bar knife next and to put a spin on it will use all hand tools.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> 1010, 1084, 1085 - These numbers are steel classification, you can then look them up and find the carbon content. The hardness, toughness, and 
> edge holding capability are a combination of base material and heat treating process. A lawnmower blade can bend, bent several in the yard. It can be made to be hard through forging. A file and a leafspring are the same base metal, while the spring bends the file doesn't. This is a function of the hardening process. There isn't enough room here to get into the crystalline structure. My advice make your knife, you'll be on your way and as with anything else experience is everything. After the first one you'll know what would have improved your efforts. Metallurgy is a very complex body of knowledge. I'll try and post a chart that will show the carbon content by steel designation later. Here is a scenario for the survivalist in you. A disaster has occured and has placed you in a position where you must find food to survive. You have headed out to forage for food when you come upon some fish trapped as a stream has receded. You fashion a spear using your quite expensive knife and with a mighty plunge you miss and hit a rock the blade breaks as it is hard as metal comes and holds an edge forever. You scramble to find the broken blade but it has disappeared in the muck! Realizing this was your only blade of sufficient capability for alot of tasks that have helped you survive thus far. That lawnmower blade is looking pretty good from my house!


SAE 5160
Temperature	Hardness	  
400°F	             59 Rc 	   
500°F	             57 Rc 	   
600°F	             54 Rc 	   
700°F	             52 Rc 	   
800°F	             49 Rc 	   
900°F	             42 Rc
1000°F	             37 Rc
1100°F	             32 Rc
1200°F	             28 Rc
1300°F	             20 Rc 

Here is the resulting hardness of a leafspring heated at different temps during heat treat. The quench will also play a small role but will not vary by much. As you can see it is possible to attain a hardness of 59 on the Rockwell scale which is more than hard enough for a knife. My knife is so soft after being annealed it won't even register on my Rockwell gauge.

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## panch0

CS how hard are the springs right after they come off the car? That looks like a tempering chart. Those are almost the temps one would use for tempering a hardened file down to a usable hardness, or to fully anneal it.

BTW I heard there was gonna be a war between the Sweeds and the Fins.... That oughta be a good one.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Pancho,

I beleive it is a tempering chart - the last step of the hardening process. I will get you that hardness of untouched leafspring. Note that I am using mid 70's Chevrolet leafsprings. I don't think based on what I have read you can acheive the same result with your 90-'s mitsubishi! LOL What is the typical hardness of the blanks you purchase after hardening? or what is considered ideal for a finished blade?

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## panch0

The steel bar I get are at around 50-60 when I get them. They are fully annealed and soft so drilling the hole in the tang will not mess up your drill bits. I usually would want a 59-60 hardness for my stainless steel knives. Maybe around the same for the O1, 1084, 5160, etc.... The carbon blades can be differentially heat treated which means that the spine of the blade is softer than the edge. The edge would be 59-61 and the spine would be a softer hardness. This would make the knife very tough. I hav'nt done this yet, but hopefully once I get a forge up and going and a anvil of sorts I will hopefully learn to do this.

On the leafspring, Those old chevies, they sure don't make em like they used to.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Yes it is possible to acheive a softer spine with a harder edge. The entire blade is heated but only the edge is quenched at first as I understand it. I will do this by placing something in the quenchant at a set depth of .250"-.5" something along those lines to allow me to water quench only the tool edges then quench the blade blade in oil.

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## crashdive123

As you know I'm just learning and know very little but one of the things that I read said to be careful when doing a horizontal quench, as you may warp the blade.  I don't think it was talking about doing it slowly (differential quench) as you are describing, but it might be something to research before trying it.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> As you know I'm just learning and know very little but one of the things that I read said to be careful when doing a horizontal quench, as you may warp the blade.  I don't think it was talking about doing it slowly (differential quench) as you are describing, but it might be something to research before trying it.


Good point Crash, I am gonna research the method before trying it. I'll let you know what info I discover.

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## chiangmaimav

There are many , many knives, machetes, and other tools here made from helicopter blades, leaf springs and other metal parts left over from vehicles and aircraft remains from the Vietnam War. There are blacksmithing villages here where that has been the major industry for generations and they can make almost anything out of junk. For a very small fee, by US standards, they will teach someone knifemaking and other blacksmithing skills.

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## Jonesy

That is going to be a great looking as well as functional blade. Nice work CS. Good to see you have your little helper in the shop. Two of my kids liked to spend time in my shop. They eventually decided to make a knife for themselves. It was a great time of sharing and bonding with memories they still talk about years after the fact.  :Smile: 


Can't wait to see the finished knife.


-Jonesy

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## Ole WV Coot

I have a "useless" knife made by a German POW for my uncle from airplane pieces. It gave the POW something to do. I use saw blades for the style I like and guess I am the only person to still draw file. Small blades, up to 3" I draw file and harden. They are usually made to cut well and hold an edge, don't clean or polish either. I just use a cutting disc on a rotary tool and it works fine for my use. Try draw filing sometime.

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## panch0

Coot, I made my first knife with a dremel, files, and sand paper. Needless to say by the second knife I made I had a belt grinder. I have been looking for simmons ar nichols farrier rasps at the local flea market. I haven't found any yet, but am still looking.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> I have a "useless" knife made by a German POW for my uncle from airplane pieces. It gave the POW something to do. I use saw blades for the style I like and guess I am the only person to still draw file. Small blades, up to 3" I draw file and harden. They are usually made to cut well and hold an edge, don't clean or polish either. I just use a cutting disc on a rotary tool and it works fine for my use. Try draw filing sometime.


WV, I am using draw filing, it moves alot of metal quick. Just haven't been able to take pictures while I am draw filing, your right though, very effective.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Here is an update, notice the Red Eagle Feather of the Wind Clan.

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## panch0

What was it that Crocodile Dundee said about a knife? That knife looks like it could knock down a tree. Great job CS!

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## crashdive123

Is somebody stealing your boat, or is it from the flash on your camera?

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

If someone was stealing my boat it wouldn't be a camera flash pointed at them! Good eye!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I watched a special on Nova about the making of the samurai sword. Great educational if you can find it. Anyhow there was a tecnique used during heat treating where they use wet clay along the spine of the blade while heating, which is left on during the quench. It created a varied color to the metal along the spine after polishing and I assume keeps the spine slightly softer. I may give it a go. Anyone heard or seen this maybe some tips?

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## panch0

It is called clay quenching and it is like a differential heat treat. They look nice with the lines it makes. The edge is hardened and the spine is softer. Post pics and let us know how it goes.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Your stayin' one up on me Crash! Looks great I am hoping this 'a 'one will do the same! Fun ain't it!

First I drilled a 2.5" something hole in the cart.

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Then I press fit the pipe thread in the hole.

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Then I poured in 80lbs. of Quickrete.

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filled it full of water and shaped the Forge!

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## crashdive123

How do you think the quickrete will work?  I was looking at either high temp cement or plastic when I picked up the fire bricks I'm using.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

It'll do fine! it is mostly Quartz on the surface. I see it workin fine. We shall see....

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## Jonesy

Looks really nice and the progress pics are awesome!!

Thanks Cowboy!!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I think the concrete and even mild steel are fine for an open forge. Heat rises and the air from the blower will cool the steel to a degree. I was considering a cast cap with holes drilled in for the 2" pipe blower but may just go with a 3/16" steel plate with drilled holes. I am waiting for the concrete to dry now (bummer) can't wait to fire it! Should I go buy a hairdryer or just hyjack the wifes? Wonder if hers will fit....

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## crashdive123

You'll be buying a new hair dryer either route you take.  An el cheapo for you or a super deluxe model if hers turns up missing.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Well I am buying the super deluxe model. Didn't even get a rise out of her when asked for it, imagine that.....It fit perfect even threaded in the pipe. I'll post some pics tonight.

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## FVR

I made one of these once, never used it.  

I made it out of a semi brake drum.

Turned it upside down, the lug bolts sticking out worked for attaching legs.  Stood it up on the three legs, ran a pipe right up the middle for the blower.

Got it all done and it sat for years.  Gave it to a friend who asked about it.

Now..................have to make another one.

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## Rick

See? See what happens when you get rid of stuff? Never, ever, get rid of man stuff. Store it, hide it, stick it in a dark corner some place because some day...some day....you'll find it again and go, "Dang! I've been looking for that. Now I can make a......".

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## FVR

Yeh, oneday I'll learn.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

My brake drum is at my other house... you guys picked it perfect...

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## Rick

I had a trailer light problem the other day and went tearing through the big tool box looking for something, anything to check my truck receiver (my VOM went belly up). Voila!! Light tester. I'd forgotten I had the darn thing. I was smiling all day long over "finding" it. The light problem turned out to be a bad relay under the hood. Hate it when that happens but $17.00 to Chrysler and I was shining once again.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Just weighed the knife.. and it is still heavy at 1.5lbs. but you don't want for a hatchet either.. I like it for a camp knife. Dependable.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

No sense in just firing one.... I know this is some proprietary " L.S. STARRETT" metal... Check out the handle... I think it is proprietary too.....

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## panch0

That is looking GOOD! I googled starrett and just read that it was a high carbon tool steel. Thats sounded good to me. I like the design.

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## crashdive123

Looks like it'll make a nice companion to your leaf spring knife.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

"Starrett" is the leader in precision measurement equipment. The steel comes from a large pair of inside calipers. The large hole was part of the tool I kept. The handle coating is epoxy powder coating. I am gonna wrap it with paracord when my order arrives.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I think the steal on this last one may be chrome vanadium anyone ever tried to harden this stuff? I see alot of chefs knifes are made from it. But haven't found much info on it.

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## crashdive123

> I think the steal on this last one may be chrome vanadium anyone ever tried to harden this stuff? I see alot of chefs knifes are made from it. But haven't found much info on it.


The only experience I have with hardening it has been to try and spell it.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I did find that 5160 (leafspring) is also chrome vanadium and that chrome vanadium comes in several SAE designations that range from low carbon to high carbon. I am going to go ahead and make the assumption the hardening process is the same. I checked the Rockwell on this new blade and it is soft. I am experimenting because I have alot more of this material. I think for this one I am gonna try a torch to the edge of the blade and a water quench. I'll let you know how it turns out. It is a process that I think may work better for lower carbon numbers. Have you tested the edge on any of your heat treatments?

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## crashdive123

I chopped a couple of 3" pieces of wood.  Seems to hold up OK.  That first one I made I have not tested - I don't think I treated that one well enough.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I think I'll add some black epoxy powder coating tonight. I am heating the blade then submersing in the powdered coating before curing in an oven. I can't control the film thickness this way so it is a bit lumpy. If I apply the black the thinking is I can sand flat to create a modeled green and black handle. The neat part is you can keep applying the stuff untill it is as thick as you want it and it is hard as a rock and impervious to most any chemical. It can be bought by the pound on ebay any color you want.

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## Sourdough

> The only experience I have with hardening it has been to try and spell it.


I know a lot about "Hardening"............. :Innocent:

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## crashdive123

> I know a lot about "Hardening".............


Ever put a Rockwell gauge on it......never mind, don't answer that.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

How long did you leave it in the forge?

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## pocomoonskyeyes

WoW CS I am impressed. From Start to finish you have done an awe inspiring job. this would be a good "sticky" on knife making this is a wonderful step-by-step process you've covered here. Are you going to use any coal when you fire it,as I've heard this adds some carbon. Don't know that, just heard it. Maybe Pancho knows the answer. But it's been years and that could've been about Damascus blades, in the folding process.

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## panch0

I think CS would know a bit more on forging than I. I am just starting on that side, but I think he has done more research. Once I get my forging set up together I will be picking CS's brain.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I have no plan to use coal. It is not readily available in the South. I do not think that coal can add carbon either. There is a proces that does but it is way over my head for now. I will hopefully just be ending with the same carbon content I start out with.

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## equus

hey cs that is a really nice knife.  i know nothing about making knifes but that is really awesome.. i like doing things with my hands.  since being on this forum i can see where having a knife and a gun could come in handy.  i am learning so much.  i enjoy this site alot more than what i thought i would.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I am glad you enjoy it. This site has opened alot of doors for me in a short time. I have always had guns and knives but their use has certainly taken on a new meaning. There is a wealth of knowledge when you can put a question out there for 3000+ users. Thanks for the compliments. I wish I had kept it a little more basic in design, sometimes being extremely creative is a bad thing but I learned to control my need to over design something from this project. Basic designs are much more practical.

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## equus

i thought that the design was a simple one.  but i know nothing about designs.  maybe you can give me and poco some lessons.  when we moved ky mel was going to try his hand at making a knife with deer antlers but then we found out that we were going to have a child. so he didn't get to try his hand at it. i want to learn but am not sure where to start at.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Equus, sorry I missed your post.. I just realized I needed to close this one out. So here we go... This is after heat treat trying the scales back on.

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Then I realized I had to temper the blade....

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Then I polished it and hit with the gun blue, just like restoring the Mora...

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Sweet!

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Painted some polyurethane on the horn...

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Still isn't finished but is proving to be a worthwhile project!

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