# Prepping / Emergency Preparedness > General Emergency Preparedness >  Living Off Grid

## Dragonfyre

Hey all, I needed some opinions. My life long dream is to puchase a partial of property, build a cabin and be totally off grid. I've done some browsing on the web and I've found many useful sources of info. Obviously, when you look, the task of taking your home off grid seems a daunting task both mechanically and financially. I found these "supposedly" easy to do yourself kits that can be purchased for like $50. They say you can build solar panels and windmills for $200 bucks or less with their diagrams and info. My question is, has anyone purchased and used this info? Has anyone ever built their own solar panels or windmills that will provide enough energy to run a household? Before I plunk down the money I'm hoping I can get some info on this. Thanks

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## crashdive123

There are a few members that live off or partially off-grid.  I don't think you need to break the bank to do it, but rather be willing to put in the sweat equity.  Wild Woman is one member that can probably best answer your question.  There are others as well that have first hand experience in it.

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## Sourdough

Why do you want to be off grid....? Is the sex better....??? Is it cheaper....???  Does ones hair grow thicker.....??? Do People look 20 years younger who are off grid....??? What the Hell is so wonderful about being off grid.....??? 

If you could be off grid and 5 miles from any human...or be 42 miles from any human and still have access to the grid....which would you choose......?????

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## Dragonfyre

> Why do you want to be off grid....? Is the sex better....??? Is it cheaper....???  Does ones hair grow thicker.....??? Do People look 20 years younger who are off grid....??? What the Hell is so wonderful about being off grid.....??? 
> 
> If you could be off grid and 5 miles from any human...or be 42 miles from any human and still have access to the grid....which would you choose......?????


Because it's personal choice to no longer be a slave to the power and gas companies who rape you unecessarily. And to answer your question........5 miles from any human off grid would suit me perfectly! It's an issues of being self sufficient and not having to depend on services from a corporation that runs on greed.

You sound a little hostile in your post hopeak, I don't know if I aggrivated a nerve or something but, if I did......sorry.

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## Sourdough

> You sound a little hostile in your post hopeak, I don't know if I aggravated a nerve or something but, if I did......sorry.



No, I am not upset. You are the first person to answer the question. And I have asked it many, many times. I thank you for your answer. My electric bill is $8.85 month. Plus taxes it is $12.50'ish per month. I have 5 generators for my off grid property. I have about $7,000.00 invested in said generators. And they burn 5 gal. fuel in 4 hours depending on the load. 5 gal. times $3.00 per gal. for fuel is $15.00 for four hours.

I had a Winco Windcharger generator, that came apart in the wind, and it made a lot of noise be for it exploded, even in low wind it made to much noise for me.

That is all I know.....I have lived 200 miles from the grid, over on Lake Clark. I am happy to pay my $12.50 per month. Did I tell you I get two months electric free each year, for prepaying the estimated bill. I get to live in the Wilderness and have a refrigerator and freezer and lights. Life is GOOD. :Smile: 

The Dogs, the Geese and the Turkeys vote for electric to have heated water bowls all winter......

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## backtobasics

hopeak post makes a lot of sence if its just a cabin with a couple of lights and a frig. But if you want it lite up like the average house in the city thats a different story. It really doesn't hurt to have both, but one needs to be strong and not keep buying more electrical accesories until your bill is like it was in town. I have and still know people who live completly off the grid, one thing for sure is that you will have to make sacrifices.

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## muddyredneck

hopeak i agree with you if there was a way of doing it cheaper and easier than the grid no one would be on the grid the grid is not the evil man it all the luxuries the grid provide that we are a slave too no amount of moving will break that hold

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## Sourdough

My upper cabin is off grid and they want $80,000.- to run power up there. But if it was $10,000.- I would pay for the line extention.

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## SARKY

Here is a misnomer about being off the grid as opposed to being on the grid and producing your own power. In most states the power companies are required to by back any excess power you produce. This is manifested in your electric meter running backwards. this also allows you to have power (without expensive batteries that have a limited lifespan) when YOU are not producing power. I would look into a company called Konarka, they are ramping up to produce a photovotaic cell that will be approx $.10 per watt to purchase that means it is about 6 to8 months for break even. and the cells do not need to be directly alligned with the sun to be most efficient.
Just thik, you could still be on the grid and have the electric company apying you!

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## Sourdough

My problem is that every time I research it, It seems easy till you start adding the other stuff. $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 for batteries that last 3 to 5 years. Inverters, and meters, switches, trips, relays, voltage regulators, etc, etc. What starts out as $700.00 ends up being $12,474.00 and it still needs to be repaired, lubricated, removed when the creek freezes, (Hydro in-line torpedo generator thingie's) Puker'ton wheels, etc.

Hard to make solar work under 9 feet of snow. Even more so when you have to stand on the unit and shovel snow.

It always sounds good....And it does work for charging one battery and maybe two.

There are a few thousand Lodges, guiding camps, remote villages, and cabins in Alaska waiting for a cost effective solution that really works.

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## muddyredneck

another problem is some states have laws on how much power you can produce and sell with out insurance and liability like a power plant i don't even want to know how much that costs

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## Riverrat

Hopeak, in my area it is at least 100 bucks a month for the power bill, and for some who use electric heat, it can be upward of 300 per month. I would love to go off grid, and we are looking at different ways of doing this, form solar, wind to a hydro generator in the brook. Maybe even a combination. This is still in the planing stage yet, but we are looking.

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## Dragonfyre

My electric bills are @$300.00 month and we've tried to cut back on usage and installed all those "energy saver bulbs". It seems not to make a difference. We also have natural gas for cooking that runs us @$100 a month. So even if I bought a place that had electric provided, I would still seek a way to produce my own via solar power, even if it's just to cut the bill way down. We plan on using a wood fired stove for cooking and this will also double as heating. Yeah, I get the "are you crazy"? stuff all the time, I'm used to it. We want a simpler way of life. We know we will have to sacrifice many things but we feel it's worth it.

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## Sourdough

Don't get me wrong, I am all for it. But devil is in the control panel. And I have just never herd of a good system. However I am all for it.

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## DOGMAN

> There are a few thousand Lodges, guiding camps, remote villages, and cabins in Alaska waiting for a cost effective solution that really works.


I know in two of the Alaskan villages I've been to power for the town was provided by giant diesal generators, and in Eagle they would power down ate at night and villagers had very little power then. Is this common throughout remote Alaskan villages?

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## MCBushbaby

I think if I were ever lucky enough to get some remote land I'd like to be completely independent of the grid.  I'd like to farm standard vegetables and fruits while being sustainable from the first yield.  I'd like to make my own mead instead of buying beer or wine.  I'd like to try out the clay pot refrigerator and making a root cellar for keeping my mead and veggies cool.  I'd like to have hand-cranked generator electronics (radio, etc.) or have a means to create a universal electronics generator.  I'd also like to set up some solar panels (can get on ebay for a lot cheaper) to charge a laptop and satellite internet feed (although I'd be paying for this service, I'd not be using it more than checking in with you folks).  All in all, there are some really neat ideas I'd like to try out but can't, per se, in my present situtation.

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## Sourdough

> I think if I were ever lucky enough to get some remote land I'd like to be completely independent of the grid.


O.K. then I have to ask why do people everywhere not just unplug from the grid......? If everyone loathes the electric companies, why not just throw the leaver, and be free. 

Being without electric is not easier, it is not simpler, it is not quieter, it is not healthier, it is not even freeing, you are attached to five substitutes systems that replace electric.

In Alaska you need electricity to have a Root cellar.

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## wareagle69

i would like to just unplug, but alas i have horse troughs tha need heated and rooms that need to be warm for our tropical birds and pumps to run in our fish tanks.I would like to be free of these stupid wires coming into my house some day, the only bill that i have here that keeps me on grid, i have not yet begun to research the solar and wind idea, but i do know that i have a good set up for it solar panels on the barn roof and six acres of horse pastures that get alot of wind in the winter, i like the reason off going solar for many reasons most of which i don't need to expalin to a cranky old goat.

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## Dragonfyre

> O.K. then I have to ask why do people everywhere not just unplug from the grid......? If everyone loathes the electric companies, why not just throw the leaver, and be free. 
> 
> Being without electric is not easier, it is not simpler, it is not quieter, it is not healthier, it is not even freeing, you are attached to five substitutes systems that replace electric.
> 
> In Alaska you need electricity to have a Root cellar.



I think my landlord would be quite upset if I unplugged from the grid and started modifying his house! 
I'm glad I asked the questions in the first place, I've already gained some useful and thought provoking info. I mean I can see how it may be less convenient off grid then having MR. Power company come out and flip a switch to turn on your lights. I just don't understand why you get beat over the head with the bill. There ain't no way in hell that I use that much electricity in a month! Ok, so maybe living totally off grid isn't easy, quiet healthy...etc..I see the point you are making. But like I said, if I were to buy land and build a cabin (or buy one already on land) and it was hooked up with electric, I still would do something to help limit my bills. BTW, I do think that the most important part of why I want to live off grid or out of the way is I want to be left alone. I like privacy.

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## crashdive123

Dragonfyre - I know that what I'm about to suggest is not living off grid.  Renting makes it difficult to modify the structure or install the equipment to move toward energy independence.  For instance, if you don't have a wood stove the landlord may have issues with you installing one.  When I lived in the PNW I rented.  We had an oil furnace - didn't turn it on once in several years of living there thanks to having a wood stove.  Often cooked on it as well.  There are so many "energy vampires" that we take for granted that result in spending $$$$$.  http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/g...-vampires.html

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## wareagle69

beleive me i understand getting beat over the head, if i use 100 dollars worth of electricty per month  then i also get a 100 dollar delivery charge then 15 dollars for meter maintance which is a crock i used to install meters. so thats 180 dollars a year over 15 years so thats around 3,000 dollars for the 15 years when they change it for a 200 dollar meter then there is the debt retirment charge that i get charged cuz the old company ceo's put it into massive debt so the new company buys it then passes that debt along to the customer all the while the ceo flies his helicopter to the "cottage" up here which is a multi million dollar cottage and yeah when the painter ran short of paint the ceo had the copter fly in one gallon of paint thats right folks one fn gallon of paint by helicopter, hmm do i want to continue to be a part of this i don't care if it costs me moeny for mainatnaice of my batteries evry year as long as it ain't going into the fat cats account, is that reason enough for eveyone to understand of why i want to go off grid?????????

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## Sourdough

> I think my landlord would be quite upset if I unplugged from the grid and started modifying his house! 
> I'm glad I asked the questions in the first place, I've already gained some useful and thought provoking info. I mean I can see how it may be less convenient off grid then having MR. Power company come out and flip a switch to turn on your lights. I just don't understand why you get beat over the head with the bill. There ain't no way in hell that I use that much electricity in a month! Ok, so maybe living totally off grid isn't easy, quiet healthy...etc..I see the point you are making. But like I said, if I were to buy land and build a cabin (or buy one already on land) and it was hooked up with electric, I still would do something to help limit my bills. BTW, I do think that the most important part of why I want to live off grid or out of the way is I want to be left alone. I like privacy.



So when people say, "Man, I dream of living off grid". I should hear, "Man, I just want to be away from the mass of humans, I want my own chunk of the earth, that I can do what I want, and not have bills to pay, or have to go to work everyday, I will be a "FREE" Man, not chained to any bloodsucking corporation, I want the good life, the simple life, I want to be left alone, Damn'it". 

I can understand now why everyone wants to be off grid.

You guys have got me gung-ho to finnish the upper cabin, and be off grid. Yes, Yes, I know all I have to do at this cabin in the wilderness is unplug the 100 foot extention cord that chains me to the Damn Grid. Maybe I wait till spring, or maybe summer.

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## backtobasics

I would like to add that it sounds like off the grid gets harder the futher north you go. I lived off the grid for 2 1/2 years in the northern Nevada desert. WE got some snow in the winter and the days were a little shorter but not like Alaska. We had a very simple and cheap energy system. Two small solar panels and two batteries. This system ran four 12 volt lights that were never all on at the same time, a small 12 volt black and white T.V. ran no more than one hour per day, and a 12 volt water pump for pumping water to the sink from the holding tank. We had a wood stove and a small camp trailer type propane heater. This worked fine for years and there are many out where i lived with less and some with more. We always had oil lamps as back up. Yes you can spend tens of thousands of dollars to set up an energy supply or you can spend less than a thousand. It all depends on how much you are willing to sacrifice. BTW this was not back in the 1940s it was the mid 1990s.

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## Sourdough

Refrigeration, and freezer are the key to my remote wilderness lifestyle. Take away refrigeration and I would have to go to Anchorage more often than every 8 weeks for food.

Talk about being chained to the "MAN" or the corporation. It cost me $55.00 in diesel fuel to run into Los Anchorage for food and feed. That is $27.50 per month, which is twice the monthly electric bill.

My annual cash requirement is $4,000.- to $5,000.- per year. This is for property tax, insurance, store bought food, fuel, electric, phone/Internet. The state of Alaska gave everyone $3,300.00 just to live here. So some how I have to make $700.- to $1,700.- to make up the difference. ....Life is good. 

I live in the old mining town of Sunrise, Alaska, population: 8 in the winter, and 11 in the summer. Everyone has 15 acres, and the property adjoins the Chugach National Forest, and is surrounded by said Forest. The nearest town is Hope, Alaska 12 miles down the road, Population:189 winter and 246 summer.

From my cabin I see no other sign of human life, I can see no one Else's cabin. If I did not go into Hope, Alaska once a week to the Church Breakfast, I would not see another human for 8 weeks till time to go get city supplies.

I have world class Salmon and Rainbow trout fishing a short walk away. I have Moose, caribou, Mountain Goats, Wolves, Grizzly and Black Bears on my property or on the mountain behind the cabin.

Would I be correct that other than being on the Damn Grid for $12.50 per month, that this is the lifestyle you quest....????

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## MCBushbaby

I would unplug form the grid but I rent.  Therefor I can't really start adding wood stoves and ducting the smoke out the nearest window.  I suppose I could get some clay garden pots and replace my refridgerator and start on that homemade electronics generator.  You know what hopeak?  That's a damn fine idea!  Why be out in the middle of nowhere if your reasoning for being so is to unplug from the grid?  I'm going to start changing my ways at home first before I work on them where it really counts

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## chiangmaimav

In Thailand I have 2 homes. The one in Chiang Mai is a 3 bedroom bungalow with electric water heaters for 2 showers, 2 air conditioners, 2 televisions, and a washing machine and my electric bill is usually about 30 dollars a month in US dollars. I use propane for cooking and it is unheated since it is seldom very cold here. My other home is basically a  concrete structure with a sheet metal roof in a small jungle village in central Thailand. There is no aircon there but I do have electric power from generator. I do not live in the second one very often, but have farm near there and visit there often.

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## Riverrat

Hopeak, you have what alot of people are looking for....If I could live there, or even where I am for 12.50 per month electric, I would not even consider anything else.....

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## crashdive123

If it's "not feeding the man" then it takes dedication, not necessarily location.  Unplug everything in your home.  I mean everything.  No lights, no heat or air, no stove, no fridge, no cell phone chargers, no computer, no television, no radio, no electric clocks.  Now figure out what you need, and how to provide it.  Maybe a small solar charger for your small electronics.  Maybe a Freestyle radio like Wild Woman has.  Who knows, you may find that you just use a fridge, one lamp and a computer and end up with a $12.50 per month electric bill.

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## sgtdraino

I suggest you take a look at Les Stroud's documentary, "Off the Grid," where he and his family decide to build a completely off-the-grid house. Very interesting, and highlights many of the advantages as well as hurdles. You can watch the entire thing on youtube. For your convenience, I have collected all the parts here:

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/sh...67&postcount=7

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## crashdive123

Thanks for posting the vids.  Watched the first one, will watch the rest.

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## Pal334

Wow,, GOOD STUFF,, THANK YOU

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## backtobasics

I just had a thought. If a person owns or is buying thier home one could get off the grid slowly. Spend a few dollars on a few solar panels and batteries and convert just one room of your house. As time goes by you could just keep adding more rooms. This could work if your a do it yourselfer. Another thought if your not a do it yourselfer getting off the grid may not be a good idea.

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## Riverrat

Sgtdraino, thank you for posting that link, watched them all.

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## MCBushbaby

Les Stroud you've done it again my boy!

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## crashdive123

Viewed all of the vids - thanks again Sgtdraino.

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## backtobasics

> I suggest you take a look at Les Stroud's documentary, "Off the Grid," where he and his family decide to build a completely off-the-grid house. Very interesting, and highlights many of the advantages as well as hurdles. You can watch the entire thing on youtube. For your convenience, I have collected all the parts here:
> 
> http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/sh...67&postcount=7


Lots of great info here. I haven't whatched them all yet but one thing I have noticed is that he is spending a boat load of money. If you got it great, if not thats a different story. Having childeren makes a big difference in a persons decisions. I know this for a fact. In fact its the main reason I don't still live off the grid.  We (we in America) are spoiled, myself included. I have my feelings about life and people in this world, but I don't want my predujist to hinder my children so I leave it up to them to make thier own judgement  for the most part when I can hold back. But If tshtf thats a different story the kids are going if they like it or not. That being said Its really not that hard unless your in a very brutal inviroment. Its about sacrifice of what you have now, but you can gain so much more in other ways. People go to work and get their pay but are not satisfied. Off the grid you still have to work but the gain is all yours,(so is the lose) and you make the decision on what task and when. If your wrong  its all on you, no one to blame but yourself. But when it all comes together I'll tell you there is no better feeling. When its bad you learn from it and hopfully next year is better. Yes it takes years to master it and be comfortable with it. I was raised all my childhood years in the city, at 29 I left it all.  After that Everything I accoplished was all me, and every mistake was all mine, its something I miss to this day. Its gratifiying, different, but in my opinion not a whole lot harder. Just a different type of work. This all happend before my current wife but she is starting to come around. We have been talking about going back to the basics. Maybe not as hard core as back then because I'm older and well you know, I have a wife now.
P.S. I hope this makes sence, I've had a few drinks tonight.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I have children, living "OFF GRID" with childeren is a crime in most states. that life style is not possible for me where I live.

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## Sourdough

> I have children, living "OFF GRID" with childeren is a crime in most states. that life style is not possible for me where I live.


Is that TRUE......no not really an crime......? Really?

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## wareagle69

yo back to basics one thing i know about woman mycurrent wife hates being reffered to as the current wife makes her think there will be another wife

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## crashdive123

Is that kind of like introducing her as your future ex-wife?

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## wareagle69

> Is that kind of like introducing her as your future ex-wife?


yup , tried that once apparently not everyone shares my sence of humour
jason- can't answer the question the way you asked it but in my expereince i was married for a spell in arizona and she had two kids i took them to my training (mma)and rodeos and lots of camping and tired to be a good role model, not trying to replace the dad just help supplement

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## backtobasics

> yo back to basics one thing i know about woman mycurrent wife hates being reffered to as the current wife makes her think there will be another wife


Yep my mistake, like I said i had a few drinks last night.

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## Dragonfyre

> Refrigeration, and freezer are the key to my remote wilderness lifestyle. Take away refrigeration and I would have to go to Anchorage more often than every 8 weeks for food.
> 
> Talk about being chained to the "MAN" or the corporation. It cost me $55.00 in diesel fuel to run into Los Anchorage for food and feed. That is $27.50 per month, which is twice the monthly electric bill.
> 
> My annual cash requirement is $4,000.- to $5,000.- per year. This is for property tax, insurance, store bought food, fuel, electric, phone/Internet. The state of Alaska gave everyone $3,300.00 just to live here. So some how I have to make $700.- to $1,700.- to make up the difference. ....Life is good. 
> 
> I live in the old mining town of Sunrise, Alaska, population: 8 in the winter, and 11 in the summer. Everyone has 15 acres, and the property adjoins the Chugach National Forest, and is surrounded by said Forest. The nearest town is Hope, Alaska 12 miles down the road, Population:189 winter and 246 summer.
> 
> From my cabin I see no other sign of human life, I can see no one Else's cabin. If I did not go into Hope, Alaska once a week to the Church Breakfast, I would not see another human for 8 weeks till time to go get city supplies.
> ...


Yes, I would agree that if I could "get away" from town and only have to spend 5 grand a year to live on for essentials......including $12.50 a month utility bill, I'd probably be satisfied. Hell, a friend of mine lives 15 miles from town, still has utilities but can't find a job. Half the time she can't get down her road in the winter! I'd actually buy her place and convert it a little at a time to be more energy independant.

BTW, I'm married with 2 kids (actually 3 but one lives elsewhere)

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## wildWoman

> My electric bills are @$300.00 month and we've tried to cut back on usage and installed all those "energy saver bulbs". It seems not to make a difference. We also have natural gas for cooking that runs us @$100 a month. So even if I bought a place that had electric provided, I would still seek a way to produce my own via solar power, even if it's just to cut the bill way down. We plan on using a wood fired stove for cooking and this will also double as heating. Yeah, I get the "are you crazy"? stuff all the time, I'm used to it. We want a simpler way of life. We know we will have to sacrifice many things but we feel it's worth it.


It's entirely up to you how much money to spend on an off-grid system. You'll determine it by your "needs". If you're able to wean yourselves off all these appliances that need to be plugged in, all you need is one 12V battery, which you can either charge in your truck if you have road access, or otherwise with a generator or solar panel. Or you can go without power entirely, there's really nothing to it. IMO it is not a sacrifice in the slightest. The less you have to plug in, the less money you have to spend to first purchase, then repair or replace it, and to provide the power for it. The less money you nedd to make, the more time you have on your hands for fun stuff.

Here's some energy-saving options for a 100% off-grid place:

Light: kerosene lamps, propane lights, led lamps.
Cooking: propane, wood cookstove.
Heating: wood.
Running water (totally overrated, if you ask me): gravity fed, or pitch it out of a bucket.
Hot water: heat it up on the porpane or wood stove.
Plumbing: outhouse.
Entertainment: books, boardgames, wind-up radio, laptop.
Communication: HF radio, VHF radio, radio phone, satellite phone, satellite internet.

One note on using a wood cookstove for heating: depending on what climate you're in, you'll still want a regular wood stove (which, by the way, is perfect for cooking on in the winter too. You can also bake in a regular woodstove, using an iron-cast Dutch oven. But that's no fun in the summer - but neither is firing up the wood cookstove!).
Even on the Amish wood cookstoves, which have a firebox large enough to possibly heat a cabin  if not a normal sized-house, the firebox is high up in the stove. Because heat of course rises and doesn't sink, the floor in your cabin will be very cold in the winter if you only have a wood cookstove to heat with. Anything below the level of the fire will be cold. 
One way to have a nice warm floor is to put in a cement or gravel pad on which to place the wood stove (not cook stove). Don't install the legs that come with the stove. This way, the heating doesn't start a foot off the ground, but right at ground level where you want it.

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## Pal334

> It's entirely up to you how much money to spend on an off-grid system. You'll determine it by your "needs". If you're able to wean yourselves off all these appliances that need to be plugged in, all you need is one 12V battery, which you can either charge in your truck if you have road access, or otherwise with a generator or solar panel. Or you can go without power entirely, there's really nothing to it. IMO it is not a sacrifice in the slightest. The less you have to plug in, the less money you have to spend to first purchase, then repair or replace it, and to provide the power for it. The less money you nedd to make, the more time you have on your hands for fun stuff.
> 
> Here's some energy-saving options for a 100% off-grid place:
> 
> Light: kerosene lamps, propane lights, led lamps.
> Cooking: propane, wood cookstove.
> Heating: wood.
> Running water (totally overrated, if you ask me): gravity fed, or pitch it out of a bucket.
> Hot water: heat it up on the porpane or wood stove.
> ...


Thank you that advice, and an ancillary benefit maybe having that cement or gravel pad as heat sink to absorb some of the heat from the stove?

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## sgtdraino

> Would I be correct that other than being on the Damn Grid for $12.50 per month, that this is the lifestyle you quest....????


Yes to everything *except* for the Alaska part. I have heard that Alaska is very beautiful, and I'm sure it is. I'd love to visit, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there. I'm a very cold-natured fellow, and I suspect the temperature would make me pretty miserable most of the year. Give me a warmer climate!

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## Sourdough

> Give me a warmer climate!



I feel the same. And I want to look over eastern Oregon, and western Montana. HEY....Spud, YO'Spud.

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## crashdive123

He's busy clearing shooting lanes. :EEK!:

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## Sourdough

> He's busy clearing shooting lanes.



It was all Palerider and Wareagle's fault.

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## wildWoman

Forgot a couple more things:

Keeping food cool: rootcellar, watertight box or barrel in stream or lake, claypot sprayed with water, propane fridge.
Freezer: superfluous luxury IMO; if you must have one and have reasonable road access, it's usually no problem to either share a freezer with someone on grid or else plug yours in at somebody's garage in exchange for whatever.

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## Sourdough

This was the Off Grid Thread where we realized it was about OPRESSION, and Being a employed Slave to the utility Co.

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## Nativedude

> Erunkiswldrnssurvival wrote:*"I have children, living "OFF GRID" with childeren is a crime in most states. that life style is not possible for me where I live."*


I have checked Federal and State level laws for all 50 states and nowhere did I find that it was _illegal to live off-grid._ Some city municipalities do not allow you to dig a well if you live within city limits, but you could set up your own cistern and/or water storage system in urban or suburban areas legally. As far as, being off the electrical grid, I cannot find a single law that prohibits the use of either solar or wind generated electricity. And you can to use propane gas, if you so choose, as opposed to natural gas within city limits (urban or suburban). Now, obviously, this only applies to private property and would not work if you rented an apartment.




> Sgtdraino wrote:*Yes to everything except for the Alaska part. I have heard that Alaska is very beautiful, and I'm sure it is. I'd love to visit, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there. I'm a very cold natured fellow, and I suspect the temperature would make me pretty miserable most of the year. Give me a warmer climate!*


Alaska is not for everybody!! Personally, Give me the snow 24/7/365 WHOO HOO!!!




> Hopeak wrote:*I feel the same. And I want to look over eastern Oregon, and western Montana. HEY....Spud, YO'Spud.*


Having lived in both areas you have mentioned, my humble suggestion would be Western Montana. . .if you prefer the mountains?! While Eastern Oregon is. . .okay, Western Montana is, by far, better in all of its beauty, resources, etc.

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## Mountaintrekker

My wife and I lived off grid for 3 years in the Rocky Mountains at 8500ft. We loved it! We just moved up to Alaska and are excited to be able to do it again soon. 
 You need an initial investment, but it is dependant upon what you can do without. If you plan on taking an average 2 to 3 bedroom home in the suburbs and "move" it out to the boonies, you will pay 20K to 30K for your system. If you get creative and slash those energy sucking appliances from your home you can do it much cheaper. 
 If you plan on selling juice back to the power company, I have some sobering news. They buy it back, but they pay you wholesale pricing, not retail! You will also have to have your system approved, inspected and in most cases installed by proffesionals. Big bucks! The power companies don't trust average folks to hook into their grid and backflow power. You need to have the proper failsafes in place so you don't fry linemen working on lines if the grid goes down and you are still live etc.
 Stand alone systems for remote homes/cabins I think are a great thing. Just remember, when you choose to live that lifestyle you need to be your own electrician, auto mechanic, butcher shop, gardener, logger, all around handyman/woman etc. unless you have oodles of cash and a satellite phone with people on standby to come and help you.
 Just fyi hopeak... our batteries are going on 6 years and still going strong! You need to maintain them and there are refresh kits out there to keep em going much longer. We have Rolls brand and I think the warranty is 10 or 15 years if you equalize once a month and keep the water level up.

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## Sourdough

> My wife and I lived off grid for 3 years in the Rocky Mountains at 8500ft. We loved it! We just moved up to Alaska and are excited to be able to do it again soon. 
>  You need an initial investment, but it is dependant upon what you can do without. If you plan on taking an average 2 to 3 bedroom home in the suburbs and "move" it out to the boonies, you will pay 20K to 30K for your system. If you get creative and slash those energy sucking appliances from your home you can do it much cheaper. 
>  If you plan on selling juice back to the power company, I have some sobering news. They buy it back, but they pay you wholesale pricing, not retail! You will also have to have your system approved, inspected and in most cases installed by proffesionals. Big bucks! The power companies don't trust average folks to hook into their grid and backflow power. You need to have the proper failsafes in place so you don't fry linemen working on lines if the grid goes down and you are still live etc.
>  Stand alone systems for remote homes/cabins I think are a great thing. Just remember, when you choose to live that lifestyle you need to be your own electrician, auto mechanic, butcher shop, gardener, logger, all around handyman/woman etc. unless you have oodles of cash and a satellite phone with people on standby to come and help you.
>  Just fyi hopeak... our batteries are going on 6 years and still going strong! You need to maintain them and there are refresh kits out there to keep em going much longer. We have Rolls brand and I think the warranty is 10 or 15 years if you equalize once a month and keep the water level up.



Mountaintrekker: My WHOLE point is, (And you know exactly where I live) If I can live here and pay $12.85 per month for electric, WHY have an off grid system......????

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## Mountaintrekker

Hopeak
 I gotcha now... if I lived where you do and could be hooked into the grid for that little I would be too! You said you have backup gens, so you have it covered.  :Smile:

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## crashdive123

IMO it's exactly what Hopeak was saying earlier.  Many sound as though they are attracted to the allure and mystique of "living off grid" when in reality they just don't want to have an electric bill.

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## Nativedude

> Hopeak wrote:*"Many sound as though they are attracted to the allure and mystique of "living off grid" when in reality they just don't want to have an electric bill."*


Yes Hopeak you are right. There are many abandoned homesteads in AK where people came, mostly in the 60's & 70's, to escape the "MAN", but once they got here, they realized it was a much rougher life than they had planned for and they couldn't provide for, nor take care of their families, so they abandoned the "bush" life and returned to "modern society".

They fell in love with the "romance" of living that type of life (off-grid) without knowing the true ins and outs, daily chores and sacrifices it takes to remain out here for years and years. And you have to have the right mental mindset to live this way everyday!

Now there are MANY dilapidated cabins throughout the back country. Just falling apart and rotting from lack of use/care.

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## crashdive123

When people find that living peacefully in nature, away from the hustle and bustle of everyday modern life is actually work...hard work...they opt for hustle and bustle.
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## endurance

Crash, I completely agree.  I think there's an awful lot of folks who like the idea of no boss, no office, no buzzing florescent lighting above your head, but I did that when I was younger.  I swung a pick, moved interlocking concrete blocks, and hiked/rode ATVs for 10 hours a day until I was 34.  What I have to show for it is a fair bit of arthritis in my back and I'm a rare breed in still being weight proportionate at age 42.  But I also really appreciate my office job.  I like the choice of being able to get home after a hard day at the office and still having the energy to go out for a two hour night ride (MTB).  I like the fact that I can afford to buy the bike in the first place, which my $12/hour FS job would never allow me to do.  I like the fact that I can afford to buy a surplus of food and garden on the side, rather than depending on the weather to allow me to grow enough to live on this year.

I respect those that have the mindset to live a life in the wilds, but it's not for me anymore.  11 years of wear and tear probably extended my life in the long run, but by the time I was pushing my mid-30s, I was at my massage therapists once or twice a week just so I could show up for work the next day.  Now I can dictate how many hours I have to push it.  It's something many folks don't understand.

As for off-grid, I think it makes sense in a handful of areas for a handful of people.  Here in Colorado it's not hard to get enough sunlight to do solar, but it's not like you're getting out of a $300 electric bill.  You're just prepaying for the next 20 years in a lump sum payment.  If you have a $300 electric bill, something is wrong with your lifestyle.  I can't for the life of me think of how many appliances I'd have to leave on in my house to get my bill over $100 a month.  Maybe he has electric heat?  Most months I'm under $45, with a solid $15 of that being my refrigerator.  Anyway, the size of the array you'd need to put out that much power would be more roof space than most folks have.  Lifestyle and appliance changes would go a long way closer to getting him near energy independence than solar or wind power.

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## Nativedude

> Hopeak wrote:*"Refrigeration, and freezer are the key to my remote wilderness lifestyle. Take away refrigeration and I would have to go to Anchorage more often than every 8 weeks for food."*


Our refrigerator is a 36" x 28" x 30" copper-lined cedar box I built. It is sunk into the ground. During the summer it stays between 40 - 44 degrees inside the box (we have a thermometer in the box to keep track) and in the winter we keep any perishables in the cabin where we keep it around 40 - 45 degrees.  :Smile:

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## klkak

> Our refrigerator is a 36" x 28" x 30" copper-lined cedar box I built.





> I took one of my crates (16"x36"), dug a hole and put the crate in it. I lined it with a piece of burlap.





> I can fruits and veggies, smoke & dry meat, and I have a Cedar box, lined with tin, that is buried in the ground.


OK, so which is it?

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