# General > General Guns & Ammo >  Is there such a thing as too small?

## BENESSE

I've always been under the impression that really small "purse sized" hand guns aren't very accurate unless you're a few feet away from the target. That put me off so I never considered it.

Now I see this, but there's no mention about how well it works:
http://nypost.com/2016/02/12/this-gu...-of-your-hand/

What's y'all opinion on the matter?

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## BENESSE

more about it:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35504566

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## BENESSE

To make it clear...IMO, something is better than nothing but in your opinion how does this stack against other options?

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## kyratshooter

This is add hype from news sources that know nothing about guns B.  It is being pushed in a market that knows little about guns or gun technology but a lot about rape and pillage.  The item is being offered as new technology in India while it has been around since the 1940s here in the States.

Do not let the conversion from metric to English units fool you.  140mm is 5 1/2 inches and 250 grams is 8 ounces.  Almost exactly the weight and size of my PF9 which holds 8 rounds of 9mmP.

The size and weight are also almost exactly the same as a Rossi, Taurus or Smith and Wesson alloy frame snub nose revolver and the Rossi, Taurus and S&W are offered in several calibers from .22 up to .38spl/.357 and 9mm.

They can also be bought for around $300 while the MSRP of the Indian made firearm is close to $550. 

I noted that they are offering another firearm specifically as a gun for women.  That offering is nothing but a WW2 Enfield service revolver with alloy frame chambered in .32.  

But as you stated "anything is better then nothing", especially for a society that has just now decided to arm themselves.  Half a billion very frightened women running around over there.

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## hunter63

Check out Ruger LCP .380
http://www.ruger.com/products/lcp/models.html
Or
Ruger LCR .22lr, .22 mag .38+p
or .357, 9mm, 327 mag
http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/overview.html

Or 
S&W Bodyguard series...
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...1_757781_image

Or really small....22, .22lr. .22mag
NAA Mini Revolver
http://northamericanarms.com/ms.html

And yes all are "short range get off me" offerings as is the .32 made in India offering........unless you listen to the interweb, where guys claim to shoot 2" groups at 50 yds (BS in IMO)

BTW I was surprised to see they don offer their "For women" offering in pink or purple anodized.......?

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## kyratshooter

Except for unusual cases, military/siege warfare/civil riot, long range shooting is not self defense shooting. 

The old standard that the FBI analyzed back in the 1960s still holds.  90% of self defense shootings occur inside 12 yards with 75% of those being inside 3 feet.  

That makes almost all self defense shooting the "get off me!" style where you point and pull the trigger till it is empty.  

Small bore bullets need "placement" when self defense shooting does not allow time for "placement".  Add to that the chances that the assailant is either high, drunk, or coming down off drugs and a bigger bullet is mandatory.

However, the good quality revolvers are "accurate enough" out to that 15-25 yard line.  I had Winnie ringing steel gongs at 15-20 yards with a .38 snubby in just a short time when she was over here and I do not think she had ever fired a small revolver before.

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## finallyME

Didn't you know that Winnie was on the British Olympic Pistol Team?  She is like a pool shark.  Hopefully you didn't wager anything.

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## natertot

What kyrat has said is pretty spot on.

Stats have changed a little now, with over 90% of SD shooting occurring within 21 feet and over 85% of those occurring within 3 feet. Basically, things are getting "closer".

As far as caliber, I always recommend carrying the biggest thing you feel comfortable with.

.22 takes a while. I even saw one guy drive himself to the hospital after taking two .22's in the chest and one in the stomach. The thing I learned at that moment, he didn't care that it was a .22. He was freaked out he had been shot! What that tells me is that it is human nature that if one is getting shot at, their biggest concern in the moment is to not get shot and prompting them to get away while not caring one bit about caliber! 

As Kyrat said, this is all well and good if drugs are not present. There was one case of a guy on drugs that took over thirty rounds, including two in the head, and was still successful in beating one cop to death and permanently injuring another for life, almost killing her as well. Unless you CCW a bazooka in that case, nothing would protect you.

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## Rick

Yeah, I had to give him some rep for that. One of the best posts I've seen in a spell. Summed it up very well.

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## Winnie

> Didn't you know that Winnie was on the British Olympic Pistol Team?  She is like a pool shark.  Hopefully you didn't wager anything.


Nah, we saved that for the two guys at the rifle range.

I had never even handled a revolver before let alone fired one.

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## crashdive123

B - Mrs. Crash just got a Sig Sauer P238 and absolutely loves it.  I do as well.  For a small handgun it really is nice.  This is the one she got and where she got it.  http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/sig-...80-auto-pistol  It is her 4th handgun, and her favorite by far.

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## kyratshooter

There is a level of "too small" that some of the pocket pistols of today cross.

That level is the point where the cartridge/gun combination causes pain to the shooter due to recoil.  

The P3at/LCP is almost at that point and the PF9 crosses the line.  I can shoot my .44 magnum comfortably and enjoy shooting my 45acp handguns, but the PF9 hurts me every time I pull the trigger. 

I carry it anyway because it is so comfortable to carry and does handle the 9mmP.  I need the full 9mm in my area due to the weather and the thick clothing it brings.  I tried switching to the P11 but it is not as flat and thin and comfortable to carry as the PF9.   

In an emergency I will just ignore the slap and shoot.  I can deal with 8 rounds in an emergency but there is not going to be hours on end of "training" with that gun.

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## natertot

Very true again, KyRat!

I had a Taurus TCP which is the smallest and light .380 on the market. Yeah, that thing was the most miserable gun I have ever shot! Yes, it was accurate for it's size (minute of man at 25 yds) and it was reliable (never failed to fire/feed and only an occasional stove pipe which I attributed to my next point). The issue was I could not hardly hold onto the thing! It was so small that I could only get two fingers and half a thumb around the grip. Every other shot I had to readjust my grip so it would fly out of my hand. After a couple mags, my wrists lost all strength and my few fingers were worn out from gripping so hard. Smallest lightest pistol, sure, but it sucked!

Since then, I have acquired a Ruger LC380 which is just a hair bigger than the LCP and I find it small enough that it fits in most pockets still. Wife's purse, my day bag, or my IWB holster is a no brainer for conceal carry. The best part, the mags have pinky extensions that I can actually hold on too! I can consistently shoot minute of man at 25yds, I can keep control of the gun, and I don't have to wear my strength out! Small enough to use, and big enough to use!

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## crashdive123

I also have the Taurus TCP.  I shoot it regularly and find it comfortable and easy to shoot.  To be fair, I have yet to fire a handgun that has "too much kick".  Maybe it's just me.....dunno.

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## natertot

> I also have the Taurus TCP.  I shoot it regularly and find it comfortable and easy to shoot.  To be fair, I have yet to fire a handgun that has "too much kick".  Maybe it's just me.....dunno.


It wasn't that it had too much kick, it was more that I have normal width fingers but they are rather short. This prevented me from being able to shoot the pistol without it slipping upward. The grip to kick ratio wasn't there for me. I have guns that have way more kick than that TCP, but they also have something I can grip with my short fingers.

This brings up another point to this thread. It isn't just about caliber, but it is also about the firearm design in that caliber and it's ability to be used by the owner. The two have to come together to create a combination that the shooter can operate.

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## BENESSE

Thank you all for tons of useful info and insight. Knowledge through research is one thing, but in this case, there's no substitute for experience. Which is why I know I can always count on your collective expertise and straight talk to separate perception from reality.

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## kyratshooter

That and due to our compulsive gun purchasing someone here will own one of everything, even if we don't like it!

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## Old Professor

I purchased one of those North American Arms derringers in 22WMR. Perhaps the smallest handgun I have ever shot. I had it about a week before I traded it back to the dealer for a bigger hand gun. It was so small that I could not instinctively get a grip that would let me pull the trigger. Most .380's that I have shot,(semi autos), have such a short grip that the recoil  wants to twist them out of my short, stubby hand.  I currently have two five shot stub nose revolvers for deep concealed carry. One in 22 WMR and the other in 9 mm.

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## BENESSE

> That and due to our compulsive gun purchasing someone here will own one of everything, even if we don't like it!


See, now, that's a luxury I can only fantasize about. Because of my "geographical limitation" what I get has to check as many boxes as possible. I can't afford not to like something...if I don't like it, I won't use it and the next chance might be ways away.

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## Seniorman

> See, now, that's a luxury I can only fantasize about. Because of my "geographical limitation" what I get has to check as many boxes as possible. I can't afford not to like something...if I don't like it, I won't use it and the next chance might be ways away.


Benesse, I know there are many general restrictions on the people of New York, and even more on residents of NYC,  regarding buying, possessing, and carrying firearms.  I do not know if you would be able to go to a gun range and rent and shoot several "pocket pistols" to decide which one fits your hand, and needs, best.  If you can do this, it will help in your decision.

As far as "little guns" being inherently inaccurate, that is false.  The shooter is inaccurate.  Reason being the very short sighting plane on a 2"- 3"  handgun makes it more difficult to align the sights on the target effectively, whereas a longer sighting plane enables the shooter to align the sights much more finely thereby accurately.

If you carry a "little gun" it is mandatory that you practice assiduously and take some shooting classes from a very competent instructor.  Of course, same goes for a "big gun" carried for  self defense.   :Thumbup1: 

A good designated gun purse will enhance your ability to draw efficiently and shoot, should you find yourself in a desperate situation.

Best of luck.

S.M.

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## natertot

> As far as "little guns" being inherently inaccurate, that is false.  The shooter is inaccurate.  Reason being the very short sighting plane on a 2"- 3"  handgun makes it more difficult to align the sights on the target effectively, whereas a longer sighting plane enables the shooter to align the sights much more finely thereby accurately.


Very true. Another part to pocket pistols being inaccurate also pertains to trigger pull. Most pocket pistols have a much heavier trigger pull to prevent accidental discharge while being carried in the pocket, purse, center console or wherever one would carry. A heavier trigger pull, although safer for CCW conditions, often leads to a person pulling or pushing the muzzle to one side or the other in the course of depressing the trigger. A person who is spot on with a full size pistol with 3lb trigger will view a 2" pocket pistol with a 8lb trigger as inaccurate because of the shorter sight plane and the heavier pull.

Good observation!

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## Wildthang

I tried to get the girls shooting a couple of my semi autos, and they had trouble pulling the receiver back to chamber them. So I bought a .38 revolver with a 3" barrel, and they really liked it! At least the feel confident about shooting it!

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## kyratshooter

That is not even taking into consideration that the smaller the auto-pistol the heavier the recoil spring required to make it function properly.

It might require a 20-22 pound recoil spring for a compact 9mm when a full sized 1911 only requires a 16 pound spring.  Add to that the fact that one must grip the slide between thumb and one or two fingers and pull that weight straight back and it may be more than many women, or youngsters, can manage.

I do my best to start folks, both men and women, on a revolver first, then move to the auto as they learn and develop stringth and skill.

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## crashdive123

> I tried to get the girls shooting a couple of my semi autos, and they had trouble pulling the receiver back to chamber them. So I bought a .38 revolver with a 3" barrel, and they really liked it! At least the feel confident about shooting it!


My wife has the same problem with every semi auto I own.  She recently picked up her Sig P238 and it has become her favorite.  She has no problem racking the slide on this one.

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## natertot

I agree Kyrat. I start with a .22 revolver and a .22 semi auto. Once the person decides which style is better for them, then we can move on from there!

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## taint

Several issues here.  Does the gun hit with enough power, or do you have to stick it in his eye socket to have the desired effect?  Rarely does the civilian defender even have to fire, much less hit, and the hitting rarely has to be done beyond 10 ft, nor better accuracy than hit the chest, at any given range.  Single shot derringers and mini-revolvers are hard pressed to hit man torsos at 25 yds, but that means hitting the brain at 10 ft, which is plenty of accuracy for legal civilian self defense use.  

Another issue is, "can you hit the man at least 3x in one second  (at 10 ft) with this gun and load"? If not, you'd better re-think your gun and ammo choice, and also upgrade your "training". Cause the truth is that most shots in combat miss the man entirely, sometimes at powderburn ranges. Most hits are not good hits, many loads are not very effective even with good hits, and too often, even good hits with powerful loads dont suffice (fast enough to save you).  There can also be more than one attacker who has to be shot.  

You can't legally go back later and "tack his head to the floor",  and he can sue you, attack you later, etc.  So, in all honesty, it's far, far better if you get enough lead into him to make certain, before he can fall to your first shot. Like Donald Trump, I'm not "PC"

Personally, i"d never go below a pocket 9mm,  such as this 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WybijIQDiEA

but I can see a petite woman or elderly person wanting the lighter recoil of the .380, even tho it's only got about  1/3rd as much power as the 9mm

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## kyratshooter

Nope, I can't shoot like the Sig factory shooter who, along with most other factory shooters, is a freak of nature!

Neither can anyone else I know, even the good shots among them.

And having a threshold of performance is not in my concept of self defense either.  Are you to not defend yourself until you can put 3 shots in to a target in one second?  

It is not as much about performance as it is results, and sometimes the results of a single shot that just barely missed can cause fear, panic and craped pants.

Even the worst shot in the world should still make a defense effort.

You use what you got and you do what you have to do even if you don't meet the standards of the world's greatest trainers. 

They are not your family and they are not the ones about to die.

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## natertot

I agree KyRat.

As far as "underpowered" goes is a matter if opinion. If I am being attacked, I want to neutralize the threat. Threat is different then the person. The threat is the action of the person. So if a person is attacking me, I want the person who is creating the threat to stop being threatening. This can happen one of three ways. He dies, he runs, or he is injured to the point of not being able to continue with his plans. If someone is getting shot at, they aren't going to sit there and take it and keep coming. The exception to this is those on drugs and with those people, nothing is sufficient enough. A .22 has stopped many attacks. Is it the best? If a .22 is all one can handle effectively then yes it is.

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## Rick

If I'm placing three shots in one second then I'm on full auto. Just sayin'.... No one I know even tries that nor do I know why you'd even want to.

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## hunter63

Not even gonna get into this one.......

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## Wildthang

> I agree KyRat.
> 
> As far as "underpowered" goes is a matter if opinion. If I am being attacked, I want to neutralize the threat. Threat is different then the person. The threat is the action of the person. So if a person is attacking me, I want the person who is creating the threat to stop being threatening. This can happen one of three ways. He dies, he runs, or he is injured to the point of not being able to continue with his plans. If someone is getting shot at, they aren't going to sit there and take it and keep coming. The exception to this is those on drugs and with those people, nothing is sufficient enough. A .22 has stopped many attacks. Is it the best? If a .22 is all one can handle effectively then yes it is.


Amen to that!

I have never met anybody that wants to get shot, and when the shootin starts I really doubt if they are going to stand there, listen, and try to determine which caliber you are firing!

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## taint

I can get within 10% of the sigarmorer's times with the pocket 9mm on the fast stuff. I was never Mr accuracy, altho in practice I've printed some nice groups. In competition, tho, I get such an adrenalin dump that I completely miss 50 yd silohuettes about half of the time. I quit caring about it long ago. I've studied this stuff for over 40 years and nobody's ever proven that they could do better than hit men reliably at  25 yds, with a handgun, while they were being shot-at, and even that is quite rare. what's far more common is missing most of their shots, at  5 yds.

about half of the time, they DO keep coming or keep shooting at you, after they've been hit. You need to research this more before dispensing your "knowledge". cause your current level of it is inadequate.

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## natertot

> You need to research this more before dispensing your "knowledge". cause your current level of it is inadequate.


Okay, I'll let the Ohio Police Officers Training Commission, the FBI, the DHS and my first hand experiences from working in my field all know that they are wrong.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## DSJohnson

Dang Nater I was gonna rep you but I got "to spread" the love around....

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## crashdive123

Got it for you DSJ.

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## natertot

Thanks DS and Crash!

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## Wildthang

> I can get within 10% of the sigarmorer's times with the pocket 9mm on the fast stuff. I was never Mr accuracy, altho in practice I've printed some nice groups. In competition, tho, I get such an adrenalin dump that I completely miss 50 yd silohuettes about half of the time. I quit caring about it long ago. I've studied this stuff for over 40 years and nobody's ever proven that they could do better than hit men reliably at  25 yds, with a handgun, while they were being shot-at, and even that is quite rare. what's far more common is missing most of their shots, at  5 yds.
> 
> about half of the time, they DO keep coming or keep shooting at you, after they've been hit. You need to research this more before dispensing your "knowledge". cause your current level of it is inadequate.


OMG I figure this out, you are speaking of Zombies! Yes they keep coming because they are already dead, and they are not very smart!
Why didn't you just tell us they were zombies...........sheesh!!

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## hunter63

I don't know....They had Zombies 40 years ago?......I mean real Zombies....Not movie Zombies.....?

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## Wildthang

> I don't know....They had Zombies 40 years ago?......I mean real Zombies....Not movie Zombies.....?


My Brother, that is a question you must ask the mighty Taint ! Go forth and talk to the Taint.......Get close to the Taint, embrace your Taintness.............LOL! Only then shall ye be enlightened!

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## kyratshooter

Back in my younger years if you shined a light on a "taint" you were about to get slapped!

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## taint

I see you know nothing of actual pistol combat. Ever heard of Bill Jordan? 9 kills as a Border Patrolman. How about Jim Cirillo? 13 kills as a stakeout NYPD officer, and he double teamed half a dozen more with his partner.  Some mercenaries get a bit of pistol combat, now and then, too.

I've had 2" kit guns with which I could group 2" at 25 yds, from the sitting   braced position. I modified a M21 beretta .22lr pocket pistol to hit more 10" gongs at 100 yds than missed, from Standing unsupported, 2 handed. that requires a 12" grouping, but that's just 6" at 50 yds, and 3"at 25 yds. not that tough to attain, once you add real sights to the gun.

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## Rick

Have you used a pistol in combat?

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## natertot

Law enforcement shootings are not combat

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## taint

oh yeah? you still die and kill in them. so please, explain to use the difference?

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## taint

I"ve pointed a pistol at men several times in my life.  Nobody had any doubt that i"d empty it into them, so I didn't have to fire.

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## taint

I"ve been studying this stuff for over  45 years.  you can research it, too, thru the Dept of Justice's Annual crime survey. it shows that most attacks are not made with guns. As a civilian, if you shoot a guy at more than 10 ft of range and he has no projectile weapon, you'll be very lucky if you are not in prison/and or sued out of every dollar you ever make. Ask George  Z about that one.!

Read the Nra's column, "the armed Citizen", put out monthly in the American Rifleman. I"ve been a Life Member of NRA for almost  40 years now.

Read Cirillo's book on gunfighting.  He personally shot 13 men, double teamed 5-6 more with his partner, watched his partner shoot another  5-6, and was in direct contact with the other half dozen cops who shot another 15 or so men, during the NYPD's Stakeout Unit's reign.  They intevened in 280 Armed robberies, mostly of liquor stores, almost all in Harlem, and only 40 guys made them fire. Even tho cornered and facing many, many years in sing Sing, they surrendered. If you have any sense, you will let your attacker flee, and save yourself the 50k$ it will take you to stay out of prison and "uns-sued". 

So, what this means for training/performance-eval is you need to be superfast for CCW draws, keep alert, have hand to hand skills,  and youll probably never need accuracy or power. Ask any cop. They point guns at people 10x as often as they have to fire them.  but you can't scare or shoot anyone with a gun that you as of yet have not pointed at them.  With airsoft, becoming superfast for the CCW draw and hit is easy, quick, safe and low-dollar. I had to do it with primer powered wax ammo, which inhales sharply. You spend more time "loading" such "ammo" than you do firing.

another source of info is the FBI"s  Uniform Crime Report, which says that over half of the COP shooting is done at less than 10 ft, and 90+ % of it is done at less than 10 yds. Cops get away with all sorts of stuff that will send YOU to prison for doing,  and cops are required to pursue felons, etc. You are told to let them go, withdraw, etc, with good reason. Cause if you don't, you'll end up like  Zimmerman, your life ruined and at-risk.

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