# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  carrying a firearm illegaly in a state park

## saiga7

how do you guys feel about carrying a concealed weapon in a state park? say in a more desolate area where you may encounter some knucklehead(s).

if a situation arises that you need to brandish your weapon or even use it, it may be worth it to have to deal with breaking the law, later. 

i'm thinking that if you have no criminal record and it's a first time offense, you should get probation..... although you'll still have a possible felony on your record and never be allowed to own firearms again....but alive.

especially if you're a woman. because in the woods, most people will already have at least a knife.  and a woman will usually lose in a knife fight. here's 2 female hikers who had their throats slit.

http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2...Questions.html

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## FVR

My Buddy.

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## wareagle69

when i lived in arizona i carried my colt 45 in a quick draw holster every where i went. the tourists at the grand canyon used to get a kick out of it me dresses up like clint eastwood with my two australian sheppards an old 69 f-100 pick up and my horse tex i can't tell you how many photo albums that i am probably in out in europe and japan, these ppl couldn't speak a lick of english all they would say is cowboy cowboy or yeehaw to get my attention then show me the camera goota say i liked the fun of it all and help fullfill there idea of the west cause there ain't to many cowpokes left out there.

but yes i carried everywhere i went cept for banks bars and hospitals.

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## FVR

I made a shoulder holster for my little hogleg thar.  Nice and comfy, not much on the hip style holsters, crossdraw is okay as I kind of feel off balance.  Unless I'm carrying my bowie.

Little on that hogleg thar.

It's made by Cetennial, back in the early 60's.  The origial owner of the company worked with Samuel Colt back in the 1800's and had an agreement to produce Colt firearms out of Belgium.

Fast forward to 1950, great grandsons decide to open the company again.  They start producing guns to the exact spec's of Colt as they had an 100 year old contract.

Company went defunked in the 70's.

So I put up for trade a Great Plains 54 cal. single shot pistol, this guy emails me a pic of three bp revolvers.  You know me, I chose the oldest and ugly one.  We make the trade.  A week later I find out that the gun is a collectors item, worth about 3x more than the gun I traded him.

I let him know, he does not care.  He got the gun years ago from a friend who's grandpappy gave it to him.  The guy I got it from had to soak it in kerosene for a week before he could clean it up.

Gun is tight, timed, and shoots better than my Remmy in 45 that has a pricetag of 600 bucks on it.

It's a keeper.

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## trax

The gun laws are so restrictive that it's almost impossible to carry a firearm legally. So, um...nooooo..... I would never carry an illegal firearm, not a chance....UH-UH...not me...certainly not a handgun or anything that's concealed carry....not this guy, nope...don't ever ask again... :EEK!:   :Big Grin:

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## saiga7

lol, yeah that's what i'm thinking.  

has anyone ever had to draw their weapon in a crisis ....and then had to explain it to the park ranger afterwards?

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## glocker36

> how do you guys feel about carrying a concealed weapon in a state park? say in a more desolate area where you may encounter some knucklehead(s).
> 
> if a situation arises that you need to brandish your weapon or even use it, it may be worth it to have to deal with breaking the law, later. 
> 
> l[/url]


First, understand that if you ever have to draw your weapon you need to be ready to use it.  NEVER draw a firearm unless you are willing to use it and have a legal right to use it.  Brandishing will definitely get you arrested and charged in the best case, in the worst case, you will get the gun taken away from you by the bad guy.

Second, get good training on how/when you can legally use it and understand that if you actually have to shoot someone, that you life will most likely be hell on earth for the near future including arrest, loss of friends, possible loss of job possible loss of marriage etc.

As one of my instructors said in class, even the death of a scumbag is treated as the death of a citizen and you will be run through the system, including arrest, prosecution and possibly jail time and civil court even if you were right.

The ONLY upside of using a firearm is that you will be alive.  Which is the whole idea, but understand the HUGE downside also and factor that into your decision.

Sorry for being such a downer, but contemplating the use of lethal force is about as serious as you can get.  Too many people get into it WAY too lightly.  If you are carrying, legal or illegal, you need to decide ahead of time what you are willing to take a life over.

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## HOP

Here in WV if you have a CCW permit you are legal for most activities as long as you keep it conceled. Many states require restrictions to be posted and be very specific about firearm and carry method.There are plenty of instances where someone has defended their selfs legally and resumed their lifes in a normal manner. 
I carry legally and make sure that any restrictions are legal as well. I don't shop where they restrict legal carry and don't even drive in Ilinos because of the evil restrictions there.

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## trax

> First, understand that if you ever have to draw your weapon you need to be ready to use it.  NEVER draw a firearm unless you are willing to use it and have a legal right to use it.  Brandishing will definitely get you arrested and charged in the best case, in the worst case, you will get the gun taken away from you by the bad guy.
> 
> Second, get good training on how/when you can legally use it and understand that if you actually have to shoot someone, that you life will most likely be hell on earth for the near future including arrest, loss of friends, possible loss of job possible loss of marriage etc.
> 
> As one of my instructors said in class, even the death of a scumbag is treated as the death of a citizen and you will be run through the system, including arrest, prosecution and possibly jail time and civil court even if you were right.
> 
> The ONLY upside of using a firearm is that you will be alive.  Which is the whole idea, but understand the HUGE downside also and factor that into your decision.
> 
> Sorry for being such a downer, but contemplating the use of lethal force is about as serious as you can get.  Too many people get into it WAY too lightly.  If you are carrying, legal or illegal, you need to decide ahead of time what you are willing to take a life over.


This is among the best advice I've seen on the use of firearms. And I would reiterate, whoever you are, whatever firearms your using, learn safety first and then practice, practice, practice. Get the notion in your head and keep it there that the only reason for pointing a firearm at a living thing is to make it into a dead thing, hence, re-read what glocker wrote. I don't think glocker is being a "downer" at all. This is just common sense advice. If anyone is in a situation where he/she has to use a firearm against another human being, it's going to be a split second decision, so be prepared and practice, practice, practice.

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## saiga7

> First, understand that if you ever have to draw your weapon you need to be ready to use it.  NEVER draw a firearm unless you are willing to use it and have a legal right to use it.


i only disagree with this part. the rest of what you said about the chances of  life being miserable after you've shot someone, i totally agree.   i know they teach it in gun courses that you should never draw unless you're ready to use it. but this is very ambiguous.  there's really no exact training to "be ready to use it".  lots of factors such as individual instinct, mindset to kill someone, past experience(s), etc.  having your finger on the trigger and it pointing is "being ready".

there are gangbangers with little or zero training, but are ready to pull the trigger when they draw.  while there are cops with plenty of training but they hesitate to shoot and they themselves, get shot and killed. also, cops draws their weapons more often w/o shooting....and using the sight of the gun as a warning/deterrent.  drawing a gun on someone is just one step in assessing the situation further.   what happens after that, happens. 




> Brandishing will definitely get you arrested and charged in the best case, in the worst case, you will get the gun taken away from you by the bad guy.


yea, the premise of my question is in a state park, so it's definitely illegal to carry concealed there.  and if i'm ever in a situation that warrants my pulling out my weapon...then it must be a dire situation already.....what's the difference with risking him getting my gun now (that i just drew) vs. getting it after he stabs or beats me because i didn't draw my gun and try to get the advantage?

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## FVR

While in a gunshop once, I noticed a local police officer.  We started talking and he asked me if I had a ccp, I told him I did but I do not carry a sidearm.  He asked me why, and I told him that if I was in an area that I needed one, I should not be there.

I do carry a sidearm in the woods, not in public.  Reason, I'm permitted to but I don't feel that I have the training to do so.  If I really wanted to carry in public then I would attend one of many handgun carrying class'', practice alot more than I do and then, maybe, I would feel comfy carrying one in public.

Best defense is your brain.  I work in some real bad areas but I always keep my witts about me.  I notice everything and always have a smile and good greating.  I treat all with respect and have never felt threatened.

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## glocker36

> i only disagree with this part. the rest of what you said about the chances of  life being miserable after you've shot someone, i totally agree.   i know they teach it in gun courses that you should never draw unless you're ready to use it. but this is very ambiguous.  there's really no exact training to "be ready to use it".  lots of factors such as individual instinct, mindset to kill someone, past experience(s), etc.  having your finger on the trigger and it pointing is "being ready".


My primary point was that some people believe that the simple act of drawing a firearm and showing it to someone will be enough to scare them away.  Perhaps, perhaps not and if you are not mentally committed to ending the treat, ie. shooting till the threat is no longer a threat, you may only be making the situation worse.

Remember, you never shoot to kill anyone, you shoot to stop them, wheather or not they die is a byproduct of THEIR actions.  You do not fire warning shots, you do not shoot to wound, you shoot to STOP them from hurting or killing you or others.

As far as classes on firearms, the best on that I have ever attened was the Judicious Use of Deadly force held by Massad Ayoob, it was 2 long days covering all aspects of using deadly force and the aftermath.

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## saiga7

> My primary point was that some people believe that the simple act of drawing a firearm and showing it to someone will be enough to scare them away.  Perhaps, perhaps not and if you are not mentally committed to ending the treat, ie. shooting till the threat is no longer a threat, you may only be making the situation worse.


yes, and it's what's usually taught in a gun course. but my point is that you really can't train nor mentally prepare for anything like this.  it's different for every occurrence.  and even with having the experience of drawing or even shooting someone, the next one is still not going to go down the same way.  

my argument is that you cannot say that you're ready when it hasn't happened yet.  i practice at the range and have drawn my weapon twice and have had one incident where 3 cops drew and pointed theirs at my head (when i was young and stupid). all 3 incidents, no shots were fired. so my frame of mind based on my personal experience and training is that there's a greater chance of not needing to fire and defusing the situation by just brandishing the weapon (again, cops do this more often w/o shooting anyone).  i'm not guaranteed this nor can i say that i am ready to shoot anyone.  




> Remember, you never shoot to kill anyone, you shoot to stop them, wheather or not they die is a byproduct of THEIR actions.  You do not fire warning shots, you do not shoot to wound, you shoot to STOP them from hurting or killing you or others.


well IMO, that would all depends. like how far they are from me and are they armed or not? if he's far enough, unarmed and won't back down from my pointing a gun at him, i will fire a warning shot.

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## trax

With a split second to think all those things over, your heart pounding, your mouth and throat going dry, maybe in a badly lit area, your head pounding from the adrenaline rush....a) should have been like FVR said and not been there to begin with ...b) better be trained and have practiced, practiced, practiced.

Maybe that warning shot is enough time for the other person to pull out a firearm that you weren't aware of, think he's firing a warning shot back? He thinks you just shot at him.

Saiga...re-read what glocker said, do you really disagree with being ready to use it? If you're not prepared, don't carry one, check the stats on how many gun related deaths are accidental ...self-inflicted or a family member.

Consider this, if someone is trying to assault/rob you and you pull a gun and aren't ready to squeeze the trigger....you just gave a previously unarmed criminal a gun, because he's going to take it from you (and it's going to hurt) that's what he does for a living.

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## Sarge47

> yes, and it's what's usually taught in a gun course. but my point is that you really can't train nor mentally prepare for anything like this.  it's different for every occurrence.  and even with having the experience of drawing or even shooting someone, the next one is still not going to go down the same way.  
> 
> my argument is that you cannot say that you're ready when it hasn't happened yet.  i practice at the range and have drawn my weapon twice and have had one incident where 3 cops drew and pointed theirs at my head (when i was young and stupid). all 3 incidents, no shots were fired. so my frame of mind based on my personal experience and training is that there's a greater chance of not needing to fire and defusing the situation by just brandishing the weapon (again, cops do this more often w/o shooting anyone).  i'm not guaranteed this nor can i say that i am ready to shoot anyone.  
> 
> 
> 
> well IMO, that would all depends. like how far they are from me and are they armed or not? if he's far enough, unarmed and won't back down from my pointing a gun at him, i will fire a warning shot.


Weather Cops choose to fire their guns or not, that's a different ball game than if we do it.  Cops are allowed to draw their firearms as well as to shoot.  However if they are wrong, their head's on the chopping block.  If a cop points a gun at you you're probably gonna do what he/she says.  If it's an ordinary person you might be inclined to pull yours and shoot back.  The code of the streets is "Don't pull it if your not going to use it."  If the situation ever came up where I thought drawing my gun was required then I have to be ready to empty it towards said person as well.  Once you've allowed your gun to be seen then the situation escalates! :EEK!:

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## trax

OK, take back everything I just said, for some reason I didn't get your last post until I posted my last post. I think you're one lucky person based on what you just posted mind you.

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## MCBushbaby

If you're ever confused about breaking the law in a survival/backcountry experience, always follow this rule:

It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

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## saiga7

> With a split second to think all those things over, your heart pounding, your mouth and throat going dry, maybe in a badly lit area, your head pounding from the adrenaline rush....a) should have been like FVR said and not been there to begin with ...


at that time, i owned a business and had to go to the bank to deposit about $2-5 thousand dollars in cash daily.  and i tried to switch up the time that i would go so not to develop a pattern that someone can pick up on.  the second time was when someone tried to break into my car.....mind you, i had 2 highly modified cars stolen w/i a period of 1.5 months before that. i was ****ing pissed. but still did not shoot anyone when i came out with my pistol the 3rd time. they ran away.




> Maybe that warning shot is enough time for the other person to pull out a firearm that you weren't aware of, think he's firing a warning shot back? He thinks you just shot at him.


well in this scenario that i posed, i was giving him chances before i did shoot at him.  way before this warning shot, i would be screaming, cussing, and warning him plenty.  




> Saiga...re-read what glocker said, do you really disagree with being ready to use it?


sorry, but there's really no preparation other than joining the police academy or the military ....where you'll have access to multi-million dollar combat simulations, etc.    otherwise, the rest of us are just shooting paper targets, taking a few classes and reading some books.  i can shoot fairly well, practice drawing, hipshots, etc....  but this 'prepared to use it' line of thinking is too cliche'-ish for me. 




> If you're not prepared, don't carry one, check the stats on how many gun related deaths are accidental ...self-inflicted or a family member.


wait, this makes no sense. i have locks. i know how my guns operates. how is my saying that i wouldn't know if i'm ready to shoot someone makes me more susceptible to self-inflicted injuries or harming a family member?  and i've already been in two situation where i didn't have to shoot anyone, thus experience.




> Consider this, if someone is trying to assault/rob you and you pull a gun and aren't ready to squeeze the trigger....you just gave a previously unarmed criminal a gun, because he's going to take it from you (and it's going to hurt) that's what he does for a living.


my finger on the trigger = i'm prepared.  my argument is that most people cannot say that they are guaranteed to be ready to shoot someone.  every situation is different.  thus my example of cops getting shot and killed because they hesitated.  does this mean that they weren't prepared to shoot, thus giving the badguy the first shot that killed them?  

not all criminals are robbers. and not all of them are guaranteed to be doing this for a living? why would you think this?  also i'm trained in MA for quite some time now. that ought to be good for something.

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## saiga7

> Weather Cops choose to fire their guns or not, that's a different ball game than if we do it.  Cops are allowed to draw their firearms as well as to shoot.  However if they are wrong, their head's on the chopping block.  If a cop points a gun at you you're probably gonna do what he/she says.  If it's an ordinary person you might be inclined to pull yours and shoot back.  The code of the streets is "Don't pull it if your not going to use it."  If the situation ever came up where I thought drawing my gun was required then I have to be ready to empty it towards said person as well.  Once you've allowed your gun to be seen then the situation escalates!


it's still not guaranteed that the situation will escalate for a non-LEO.   but that's a good point about a cop and his badge having a different affect.

while if i were in a situation where i sensed that i was in danger.... i'd rather take the chance of being disarmed .....than being beaten or stabbed to the point where it's too late to draw my weapon. 

again, i question that there's some kind of formula or training that would prepare anyone for this "don't pull if if you're not going to use it" mantra.

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## saiga7

> OK, take back everything I just said, for some reason I didn't get your last post until I posted my last post. I think you're one lucky person based on what you just posted mind you.


well i'm lucky that i didn't get trigger happy and took the chance that the sight of a gun would defuse the situation.  come to think of it, one other instance where a homeowner came at me and my friends (again, young and stupid) with a big freaking handcanon and we ran like hell. he never fired a shot. 

the next day, he came to where we were hanging out and showed us his gun and said next time he'll shoot....just trying to scare us. we could have jumped him but obviously none of us wanted to be the first guy to distract him and get shot.  was he prepared to shoot us?  nobody knows, including him...especially when no shots were fired.

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## glocker36

> well IMO, that would all depends. like how far they are from me and are they armed or not? if he's far enough, unarmed and won't back down from my pointing a gun at him, i will fire a warning shot.


You only shoot if you have the legal right to shoot.  

When can you use deadly force? If you face immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.  All items must be present  

If you have time to think about firing a warning shot, you do not feel that way.  At least that is the way that a jury will see it.

Also, remember, because of the adenaline running through your system, your fine motor skills are going to be shot, and if you accidentally shoot someone else with that warning shot, they have a term for it.....Manslaughter

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## nell67

I carry a gun for personal protection,I am 5'1" 105 lbs and had someone try to break in my house when my children was small ,my youngest was 3 months old at the time.This person knew that 1.my husband waas not home,2.I was in bed,3 I was undressed at the time,I am not saying this to be funny I was scared to death at the time,and I did not own a gun so when I heard them trying to enter through the front door,I had just layed down,I was pi**ed at my husband for not being home when he said he would,and was not going to sleep anytime soon,the only thing I could do at the time was go into the kitchen and grab a knife out of the drawer,which happened to be right next to the door the person was trying to enter,by the time my husband came home,I was furious,I was scared and I was on the phone to 911 ,cops were there a short time later but husband walked in thinking I was pulling some sort of joke until he got a good look at his wife sitting on the couch naked ,holding a butcher knife, crying ,on the phone with the police,made him think again about leaving me and the kids home alone after dark with nothing but a knife to protect myself and the kids with.
 The cops suggested the hand gun,and trained me how and when to use it,even though I had shot guns all my life growing up.

I would use  it in a heartbeat no matter where I am to protect me or my family.

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## trax

> I would use  it in a heartbeat no matter where I am to protect me or my family.



and there's the bottom line, good for you Nell. We're pals, right? 

So we have a machete packing owl_girl and a pistol packin' Momma  :Smile:

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## nell67

yup trax we're pals LOL

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## saiga7

> You only shoot if you have the legal right to shoot. 
> 
> When can you use deadly force? If you face immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.  All items must be present


well the premise of my question is already in a place where it's illegal to carry a concealed firearm, therefore cannot be legal at all.




> When can you use deadly force? If you face immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.  All items must be present  
> 
> If you have time to think about firing a warning shot, you do not feel that way.  At least that is the way that a jury will see it.


there's no formula for how the jury would feel. you can't predict the jury, their race, background, creed, political persuasion, etc...  all of the above applies to the level of competency of the State's attorney prosecuting the case also.  then there's the level of competency of my attorney(s).....especially during jury selection.  if i'm rich w/o priors and this is a pro-gun state....i'd have an enormously better chance.

and back to the scenario, if i fire a warning shot and he keeps advancing ....while i have no escape (ie. trapped in an alley w/a deadend.....i don't see why it wouldn't help prove my case that i'd actually gave him the chance of the warning shot(s).




> Also, remember, because of the adenaline running through your system, your fine motor skills are going to be shot, and if you accidentally shoot someone else with that warning shot, they have a term for it.....Manslaughter


well sure, that's a given. .

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## saiga7

maybe i'm reading too much into this common gun class phrase of "don't pull it if you're not prepared to use it". 

to me, being prepared....is having my finger on the trigger.  next step is to point it and try to talk down the situation and avoiding shooting anyone. i consider the sight of a gun a huge deterrent factor (based on personal experience). i may die one day because of thinking this way, but that's the choice i chose to take.

here's another slight incident that i recalled.  i was trying to sell a modified Mustang 5.0  they are highly sought after by thieves due to the aftermarket parts on modified ones being easily sold.  2 guys came to my house.  i didn't see any car.  they either were dropped off or took the bus.  this is highly unusual. 

there were incidents where the interested buyer didn't have a car and asked me to meet them at a metro station. this made sense and i didn't mind going there.  but these 2 came to my house.  and it was a very warm day to be walking.  my gut instinct tells me something's wrong with this picture. so they asked for a test drive. i said ok and took off my jacket and walked towards my house (saying i needed to get my license) ......this revealed that i had pistol in my back holster.  it was stainless steel so very visable.  when i came out, they said that they've decided that the test drive was unnecessary because the price is out of their range and they had to leave.

mind you, i was in a business suit (back from work) and clean cut. and this was right in front of my house in a good neighborhood. now i only meet people at malls and such to show my cars for sale.

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## trax

> mind you, i was in a business suit (back from work) and clean cut. and this was right in front of my house in a good neighborhood. now i only meet people at malls and such to show my cars for sale.


LMAO, so people? Only poorly dressed, shabby looking guys in bad neighborhoods shoot  people? Not trying to pick on you saiga and I know what you meant is what just the wording when I read it I guess.

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## saiga7

maybe they had cash on them to buy the car and were afraid that i was going to jack them up. i was asking $10,500 for the car and this was in 1993, so that's a lot of disposable income 14 yrs ago.  and these two guys didn't look older than 20. 

if i placed that ad to lure unexpecting buyers to my house to rob them, i'd have to also kill them and dispose of their bodies each time, lol. but still easily traceable...ie. before i go anywhere unusual or to look at a car....after mapquesting the directions, i'd send an email to my mommy of my exact destinations, purpose and timeframe....then i'd carbon copy that to another email acct....should the situation arises, i'd give it to my captors to show that i did document all the names, addresses, phone#'s, etc...

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## Sarge47

> well the premise of my question is already in a place where it's illegal to carry a concealed firearm, therefore cannot be legal at all.
> 
> 
> 
> there's no formula for how the jury would feel. you can't predict the jury, their race, background, creed, political persuasion, etc...  all of the above applies to the level of competency of the State's attorney prosecuting the case also.  then there's the level of competency of my attorney(s).....especially during jury selection.  if i'm rich w/o priors and this is a pro-gun state....i'd have an enormously better chance.
> 
> and back to the scenario, if i fire a warning shot and he keeps advancing ....while i have no escape (ie. trapped in an alley w/a deadend.....i don't see why it wouldn't help prove my case that i'd actually gave him the chance of the warning shot(s).
> 
> 
> ...


It's all going depend upon which one of us is facing the danger.  If a guy comes after me with his bare hands I don't think I'd "Lone Ranger" his butt with a .44 when a baseball bat would probably take care of him and is easier to reload.  A knife?  That might be different, and if he's packin' heat I'd probably get outta dodge unless I'm penned in, then it's the OK Corral!  The old saying goes "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6."  Today it seems that the bad guys get better treatment in the counts than their victims so they can be my victim and I'll be the bad guy. :EEK!:

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## man.vs.wild

> First, understand that if you ever have to draw your weapon you need to be ready to use it.  NEVER draw a firearm unless you are willing to use it and have a legal right to use it.  Brandishing will definitely get you arrested and charged in the best case, in the worst case, you will get the gun taken away from you by the bad guy.
> 
> Second, get good training on how/when you can legally use it and understand that if you actually have to shoot someone, that you life will most likely be hell on earth for the near future including arrest, loss of friends, possible loss of job possible loss of marriage etc.
> 
> As one of my instructors said in class, even the death of a scumbag is treated as the death of a citizen and you will be run through the system, including arrest, prosecution and possibly jail time and civil court even if you were right.
> 
> The ONLY upside of using a firearm is that you will be alive.  Which is the whole idea, but understand the HUGE downside also and factor that into your decision.
> 
> Sorry for being such a downer, but contemplating the use of lethal force is about as serious as you can get.  Too many people get into it WAY too lightly.  If you are carrying, legal or illegal, you need to decide ahead of time what you are willing to take a life over.


i agree you will probably be arrested but then you have to deal with your consious ( not sure how to spell it sry guys) and know all your life that you killed someone

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## trax

> i agree you will probably be arrested but then you have to deal with your consious ( not sure how to spell it sry guys) and know all your life that you killed someone



I'll defer to Nell's earlier statement on this one. Funny thing, I know I don't like feeling guilty, but I'm just really, really, really sure that I won't like feeling dead.

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## Tony uk

I like self defense training instead of guns, Because if you misplace your weapon your done but its prity hard to misplace parts of your body to use in defense

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## Sarge47

> I like self defense training instead of guns, Because if you misplace your weapon your done but its prity hard to misplace parts of your body to use in defense


Here's a straight forward "American-style" question regarding what you just posted:  "How do you Karate-chop a .45 slug?" :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Tony uk

Good Q, Fortunatly i dont live in america and in winter in Scotland we are all to cold to operate something like a gun triger so self defense is the best option

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## carcajou garou

How come its seem that the scenario that we misplace our firearms, lose all our survival kit etc... is so prevalent sounds like a lot of defeatist thinking to me, what about the Baden-Powell motto "be prepared"
Also here in Kanata even much colder and miserable than Scotland, we still manage to discharge a few in winter :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Tony uk

Yeah but you have to remember that we are all miserable up here in scotland and hate the cold (Unless its snow) and with the amount of alcohol you find in your tipical scotsman i dont think we could figure out with part of the firearm is the trigger let alone fire it

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## Sarge47

> Yeah but you have to remember that we are all miserable up here in scotland and hate the cold (Unless its snow) and with the amount of alcohol you find in your tipical scotsman i dont think we could figure out with part of the firearm is the trigger let alone fire it


And we Americans don't have massive alcohol consumption , right...FVR? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## eddiec

Here, in the great state of Illinois, they tend to frown down upon those of us who wish to keep and carry arms. We are trying to change those laws so that good, hard working people, can defend their selves, family and property (since criminals are gonna have fire arms regardless!). I have a Texas conceal and carry permit, and when I travel out of state, my .45 goes with me. It has gotten me out of some pretty hairy situations before...

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## saiga7

same in anti-gun Maryland. my friend had small store in a bad neighborhood. he got into a shoot out with a punk. one of his employees got shot by this punk.  the badguy got shot too but escaped. the employee sues my friend. a few years later, they're neck deep in legal fees (not to mention loss of quality of life). the state even prosecuted them for public endangerment. 

this isn't something i read about, which makes me even more afraid to shoot anyone LOL.  i'm sure things like this about my place of residence, greatly affects my past judgments concerning the 'pulling out of my gun'.... also, i've been sued before for a frivolous reason....and it costs a ton of money just to defend and win a BS lawsuit....and it's almost impossible to recoup legal fees from the losing party.

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## saiga7

> I like self defense training instead of guns, Because if you misplace your weapon your done but its prity hard to misplace parts of your body to use in defense


do people even own guns in the UK? and what about women, the weak, the elderly, etc?  how many years of chopsocky training will they need in order to effectively defend themselves against one assailant? what about multiple assailants? chances are, they'll get their *** beat, stabbed or shot.  training in sprinting or 100 yard dash would probably be more effective.

what's wrong with carrying a gun and practicing MA? like Elvis once said, "Karate don't beat a gun".

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## wareagle69

i once knew a guy that a couple of ppl tried to pull a gun on him, they weren't fast enough he took it from them and beat their asses with it. second the old infirm weak and so on may most likely get the weapon taken from them and used against them.

 that being said i am a dual citizen living currently in Canada i was always armed i the us always.. up here only the bad guys have guns and they know it what deterrent do they have none. in AZ no one would ever think of breaking into the ranch why cause lots of guns lived there.

 i believe in what?    always being prepared.. means that i am always armed even in Canada and i always have my physical training which means if i have to disable an assailant then run the hundred yard dash then so be it...

----------


## FVR

I have a good friend who carry a gun while working.  He works in the projects in Atlanta alot.  I work in the areas sometimes, but don't carry a gun, however the kabar and hammer is nice to have.

Well, he is a carpenter and was walking out of a unit when he got cold cocked, he went down, but then got up.  One gent went to raise his gun and he got a 16oz hammer to the head, the second guy got kicked square in the gonads, and the third guys pants fell down, he tripped and got kicked in the head.

Sometimes it just does not pay to mess with a former Green Beret. LOL.

I asked him why he did not pull his gun and he told me that, "hey, they were punks looking for an easy buck, not worth killing."

----------


## saiga7

> i once knew a guy that a couple of ppl tried to pull a gun on him, they weren't fast enough he took it from them and beat their asses with it.


so this happened TWO times where he disarmed someone with a gun? these Chuck Norris stories are fun to read about, but they have no real life applications. or should we just blast the hell out of anyone that we pull a gun on because they could be this Chuck Norris guy who'll disarm us?




> second the old infirm weak and so on may most likely get the weapon taken from them and used against them.


if the weak old guy was contemplating on whether or not to draw his weapon, i guess i can assume that this isn't a scenario where he's in church playing bingo.

so what's the difference between an old guy pulling his gun out and getting his *** beaten with his own gun vs. him not pulling it out and getting his *** beaten with something other than his own gun?  at least in the first scenario he had a chance.

----------


## wareagle69

first scenario is that the person whom i refer to is a bad muther fuc*** with whom i have done some associating with many moons ago i wouldn't say he was a chuck Norris type just a bad mfer same guy got jumped by four guys had a baseball bat break his neck and back then they threw him in the fast moving Niagara river in mid february and that tough fu** pulled himself out crawled up the embankment and lived.

 second scenario the old guy could be at church bingo lots of money sitting around bingo halls for easy pickings problem is that not everyone who carries a gun can use it or will have the will to use it and if it gets taken away from them then the bad guys have another gun on the street to kill innocent mothers and children with

 third these stories are fun to read i'm glad you find them entertaining but if you are going to pull a gun on someone you had better be fast and ready to use it. i do not know your back ground but i do know mine maybe you live in a little andy and opie world where you can be delusional about life but i live in reality and listen up here i have survived my battles so far, what have you done opie?

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## mbarnatl

This is a very interesting question. I am going to try and get to the DNR station this week and ask them this question. On what might happen as in you being caught may depend if you are in a state or federal park. I know on the AT, you have to apply for permits. I'll see if I can get over to the station this week and find out.

----------


## saiga7

> first scenario is that the person whom i refer to is a bad muther fuc*** with whom i have done some associating with many moons ago i wouldn't say he was a chuck Norris type just a bad mfer same guy got jumped by four guys had a baseball bat break his neck and back then they threw him in the fast moving Niagara river in mid february and that tough fu** pulled himself out crawled up the embankment and lived.


my point was, if i trained myself mentally and physically for this bad mofo only, then i would be blasting the hell out of anyone that i sense to be of a danger to me. or i can accept that there are Chuck Norrises like him out there, but rarely.....and focus more on trying to not having to shoot someone just because i had to draw my weapon.




> second scenario the old guy could be at church bingo lots of money sitting around bingo halls for easy pickings problem is that not everyone who carries a gun can use it or will have the will to use it and if it gets taken away from them then the bad guys have another gun on the street to kill innocent mothers and children with


so now you're main concern is about a gun being taken from someone who may not be able to use it while being attacked.....and thus the gun being in circulation?  

and what should weak, old guys do then? not even consider carrying a gun because it might be taken away from them....and just get beat up and accept that they are easy targets for robbers and muggers?  women too?

also, do you have any statistics to prove the number of cases where someone draws a gun and it gets taken away from them by an attacker that's unarmed?  i know the anti-gun people talks about this a lot. but can you show actual statistics?




> third these stories are fun to read i'm glad you find them entertaining but if you are going to pull a gun on someone you had better be fast and ready to use it.


this goes back to my original argument. nobody knows whether or not they are able to. each situation and succeeding situation....are all different. that's why cops, with all of their training, still gets shot first (while their weapons are drawn) and they die.




> i do not know your back ground but i do know mine maybe you live in a little andy and opie world where you can be delusional about life but i live in reality and listen up here i have survived my battles so far, what have you done opie?


i went to college, have a professional career and live in a nice neighborhood where i don't have to worry as much about bad elements (except when i owned a business in densely populated area).   nor do i need to follow cliche's about "being ready to use it if i pulled it", etc....which requires clairvoyance.  and this "little andy and opie" place sounds so much better than the dump that you reside in.

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## Sarge47

> my point was, if i trained myself mentally and physically for this bad mofo only, then i would be blasting the hell out of anyone that i sense to be of a danger to me. or i can accept that there are Chuck Norrises like him out there, but rarely.....and focus more on trying to not having to shoot someone just because i had to draw my weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> so now you're main concern is about a gun being taken from someone who may not be able to use it while being attacked.....and thus the gun being in circulation?  
> 
> and what should weak, old guys do then? not even consider carrying a gun because it might be taken away from them....and just get beat up and accept that they are easy targets for robbers and muggers?  women too?
> 
> also, do you have any statistics to prove the number of cases where someone draws a gun and it gets taken away from them by an attacker that's unarmed?  i know the anti-gun people talks about this a lot. but can you show actual statistics?
> ...


(Sorry, my son just bought the new Fantastic 4 DVD!)  Let's be careful about the flaming, guys, alright?  Here's my point Saiga, if I pull it, then I'm gonna use it!  forget about cliches.  That's why I'm in agreement with FVR's policy of not carrying a gun where I might feel I have too.  Besides, haven't we strayed from the original intent of this thread?  I believe the question was if any of us would carry in a state park, or other "illeagal" area, right?  I most likely wouldn't, and my wife's sister was brutally murdered in a state park about 10 miles from here!  A gun wouldn't have been the answer as she was talking to her soon-to-be-ex-husband, and he murdered her in a very horrible manner.  There's my answer, and I don't care who agrees with it or not. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## HOP

If someone is trying to kil you in a state park and you have nothing to defend your self with they will kill you, if you have something to defend your self with your odds of survival go way up. I worked in Corrections for 17 years and have seen humanity at its lowest denominator and many of the convicts would kill just as part of the act of robbery (read no witnesses) I prefer to go prepared going unprepared is not a good survival technique.

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## saiga7

i was hoping to hear any stories of how the park ranger reacted...ie. giving people who illegally carried some slack should they had to draw their weapon.

but then again, if they did shoot their attacker, it makes it almost impossible to conceal the fact that a gun was used illegally.   i guess this would be where not shooting the guy and trying to scare him off or even buy enough time to run away may be a good choice. 

or maybe a warning shot.

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## MCBushbaby

> i was hoping to hear any stories of how the park ranger reacted...ie. giving people who illegally carried some slack should they had to draw their weapon.
> 
> but then again, if they did shoot their attacker, it makes it almost impossible to conceal the fact that a gun was used illegally.   i guess this would be where not shooting the guy and trying to scare him off or even buy enough time to run away may be a good choice. 
> 
> or maybe a warning shot.


rangers are usually more interested in asking if you planned to do any illegal hunting with the rifle/gun they caught you with, rather than if you use it for self defense.  Most likely if it's a high enough caliber they'll confiscate it on the spot, but if it's a handgun or a .22 you'll probably get off with a "well be careful."

----------


## nell67

[quote=saiga7;8084]my point was, if i trained myself mentally and physically for this bad mofo only, then i would be blasting the hell out of anyone that i sense to be of a danger to me. or i can accept that there are Chuck Norrises like him out there, but rarely.....and focus more on trying to not having to shoot someone just because i had to draw my weapon.



so now you're main concern is about a gun being taken from someone who may not be able to use it while being attacked.....and thus the gun being in circulation? 

and what should weak, old guys do then? not even consider carrying a gun because it might be taken away from them....and just get beat up and accept that they are easy targets for robbers and muggers? women too?

also, do you have any statistics to prove the number of cases where someone draws a gun and it gets taken away from them by an attacker that's unarmed? i know the anti-gun people talks about this a lot. but can you show actual statistics?



this goes back to my original argument. nobody knows whether or not they are able to. each situation and succeeding situation....are all different. that's why cops, with all of their training, still gets shot first (while their weapons are drawn) and they die.



i went to college, have a professional career and live in a nice neighborhood where i don't have to worry as much about bad elements (except when i owned a business in densely populated area). nor do i need to follow cliche's about "being ready to use it if i pulled it", etc....which requires clairvoyance. and this "little andy and opie" place sounds so much better than the dump that you reside in."

Why are you so concerned about statistics?? Sounds like you work in 
some occupation that deals with numbers...maybe insurance?? The fact is if you are the one in the situation who may need to pull a gun on an attacker all the stats in the world do not amount to a hill of beans,go hide in a corner somewhere and play with your calculater.

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## saiga7

> Why are you so concerned about statistics?? Sounds like you work in 
> some occupation that deals with numbers...maybe insurance??  The fact is if you are the one in the situation who may need to pull a gun on an attacker all the stats in the world do not amount to a hill of beans, go hide in a corner somewhere and play with your calculater.


sorry if i don't live in a bad neighborhood and need to be such a toughguy like you. have fun when it's time to retire from your profession of being a toughguy.

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## trax

Oh my God! Bitterness! Acrimony! Sarcasm! Why can't we all play nice like ol' Trax does. Interesting as this little chitchat has been, I would _assume_ (I know---never assume, it makes an *** out of Uma Thurman, anyhoo...) that any law enforcement officer is not going to cut anyone slack if they're carrying an illegal firearm. I'd go so far as to bet that it's something that any law enforcement officer takes really, really serioiusly.

I'm having trouble picturing some park ranger screaming "FREEZE SUCKER! I saw you drop that drink cup back there on the trail, now you get back there and PICK IT UP! _oh....and please keep your .357 concealed better than that, it tends to frighten the other park guests."_

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## nell67

ok trax you win,I apologize for being rude :Frown:

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## trax

Nooooo...Nell, then I'd have to apologize for being a smart-a##!

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## wareagle69

well number 7 i was going to leave this alone but

 get your facts right nell is not a tough guy she is a survivor go back and read all of her posts i have the utmost respect for her.

 i do not live in a dump as you say i live in the middle of no where go back and read my posts.

  you are not the type of person to carry a firearm legal or not.. you got all defensive and shot your keyboard off quickly not an attribute in carrying a firearm. what i have stated is that i have run on the dark side and also served in combat in both situations i have seen brave men freeze up despite what ppl think it is not easy to take a human life much less deal with your emotions afterwards.

  you have not been here long enough to make any assumptions about the validity of ppl here or the ppl that the ppl here may know or have associated with in the past or present.

  i do hope you stick around and learn more about us and us about you. try not to take things personally i was using a page out of volwests book and you reacted to the t the way he would have predicted which i found amusing nothing personal but do your research first.


             always be prepared....

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## nell67

Thanks Wareagle and Trax

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## trax

Isn't bad elements when them things on your stove won't get hot like they're s'posed to?  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## explodingearth

case and point: guns suck

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## Beo

If you carry into a city park, township park, state park, or federal park, I don't care if your carrying a .22 or toting a frig'n howitzer your getting taken to the staton and the gun confiscated, a fine of no less than $2500 and up to 5 years in prison (out in two for good behavior), Federal Law states it is illegal to cary a firearm, or dangerous instrument that produces a projectile. The above mentioned places can add to but not take away from the statute.
Beo,

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## Beo

"I want to carry a firearm for protection."

Firearm advocates have used this statement excessively as justification for carrying firearms in national park activities. The reality of daily life, however, is that crime incidents in state and national parks in the United States generally, are extremely low. Additionally, when serious and violent crimes have been recorded, most incidents are directed at park employees, namely maintenance staff and peace officers, and not park patrons.
Crimes indexed by the Park Officials Incidence Based Reporting (IBR) data reveals that the most frequently occurring crimes within State and National parks tend to be drug possession, petit or grand larcenies, and miscellaneous misdemeanors, usually in the camping areas. Rarely do these categories include violent crimes and/or assaults. The argument promulgated for self-protection by firearm proponents is not supported by available data collected thus far within the State and National Parks. All of this data is readily available to the public, and accordingly, the assertion that it is necessary to carry weapons on public property is effectively rendered moot, since data that has been collected by federal and state park law enforcement does not support a need for self-protection on state lands whatsoever.
There does exist, however, information which links together two very important observations:

The aggregate rate of injuries and accidents increases when persons other then law enforcement officers carry concealed or non-concealed firearms and 
The aggregate rate of crime increases when persons other than law enforcement officers carry concealed or non-concealed firearms.
Statistics collected by park law enforcement and social organizations and scientists around the nation suggests that the higher prevalence of weapons result in higher accident and injury rates, both to the owner-operator of the firearm, and to bystanders.

Just some food for thought.
Beo,

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## Beo

One of the people who ruined the carrying of a weapon (firearm or bow) into State and National Parks was famed big game hunter Chuck Adams who was arrested for poaching his so called big game in Yellowstone National Park and other state parks around the nation. 
Some big game hunter (Chuck Adams famous bow hunter).

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## MCBushbaby

> If you carry into a city park, township park, state park, or federal park, I don't care if your carrying a .22 or toting a frig'n howitzer your getting taken to the staton and the gun confiscated, a fine of no less than $2500 and up to 5 years in prison (out in two for good behavior), Federal Law states it is illegal to cary a firearm, or dangerous instrument that produces a projectile. The above mentioned places can add to but not take away from the statute.
> Beo,


What about a potato cannon?  Ping pong ball shooter?  I'm not mocking your post, it's just I have those and if it's legal I'd like to launch a few spuds in town square  :Smile:

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## Beo

Anything can be obtained (even a firearm or bow) in a state or federal park if you get permission, always ask first and do the necessary paperwork and if that don't work grease enough palms and you'll get what you want  :Big Grin: 
A potato cannon and ping pong ball shooter are not a firearm. Also a state can have determined that during specific times or under specific conditions a person is allowed to carry (bow or gun, or spud cannon in Mitch's case) on specific dates (i.e. open hunting season or as specified by state game warden) or for specific reasons, there are always loop holes in the law.  :Big Grin:

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## HOP

It boils down to some people who can go armed legally don't want others to go armed legally and will use any excuse to make it happen and send the perpitrator to jail for a long while monsters serve minimum time for horiable crimes. where is the survivalability in this equasion? 25 or 30 years ago a guy named Claude Dallas murdered 2 game wardens by first shooting them down and then geting close and putting a couple of shots in their head and today he is a free man he was a poacher and on federal land and would have shot you or me down as well unless we protect ourselfs we can choose not to go there which may be the right choice.

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## Beo

I don't make the laws I just do my job and if called for a crime like that I have to do what my job requires, doesn't mean I gotta like it just gotta do it. 
Psst... listen in 1988 while serving in the army at Ft. Campbell Ky, in the 101st Airborne, I was leaving out the back gate, gate 6 if ya know the post. There was a huge deer grazing in a field and I pulled over to look at it, monster buck no shi*'n, somehow my .30-06 got into my hands and I blasted the buck at about 150yards. Damn if the post game warden (provost marshal) didn't walk outta the woods behind me and take me in for poaching on a military reservation (I was young back then) and it cost me (actually my pops paid it) $1800 dollars and I was promoted to corporal from sergeant with a bonus of 45 days restriction to barracks and 45 days extra duty. No sheeeit true story, also lost my rifle.

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## HOP

I don't have a  problem as long as they can quoate the aplicable statute i don't need people inforcing their feeling and not the law.
You couldn't get on post any more with a firearm except thru a cetian gate and only registered firearms for a specific purpose I have had my bulets coubted both ways.

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## Beo

> You couldn't get on post any more with a firearm except thru a cetian gate and only registered firearms for a specific purpose I have had my bulets coubted both ways.


 You mean now or then? Now I believe... then I was married and living in on-post housing, they didn't search a thing only looked at your post sticker (car pass on windshield, and one on plate) and waved you through.

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## HOP

I lived near Ft. Hood after I retired and drove thru it every day to work and while they didn't search every car the search some and did it well they got mazes and popup bariers at every gate . I good to Ft. Belvoir to se my son and it is the same.

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## MedicineWolf

Won't say a thing about a soldier bringing a weapon onto post as long as its checked by the unit armorer.

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## HOP

All post entrys are manned by civilian security types and while there are 2 or 3 gates you can bring a personnal firearm in it must be registered with PMO and only for the purpose to use the sportsman range or go to the rod and gun for the orginized deer hunt any thing else will get you in some troble my son was with CID and they investigated a lot of weapons thru the wrong gate stuff. I know of people carying thru the wrong gate but is is just a mater of time.
As for the subject of this post I usually don't go where a firearm is not allowed  by whim or law. I would like to know if there are laws in Alaska about guns in parks.

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## Nativedude

This is the best thing said on this topic. Way to go FVR! I completely agree!!   :Wink: 




> Best defense is your brain.  I work in some real bad areas but I always keep my witts about me.  I notice everything and always have a smile and good greating.  I treat all with respect and have never felt threatened.

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## flandersander

Honestly i would carry a .45 and my brain. my brain tells me when to shoot and the shot stops the persuer.

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## MedicineWolf

> All post entrys are manned by civilian security types and while there are 2 or 3 gates you can bring a personnal firearm in it must be registered with PMO and only for the purpose to use the sportsman range or go to the rod and gun for the orginized deer hunt any thing else will get you in some troble my son was with CID and they investigated a lot of weapons thru the wrong gate stuff. I know of people carying thru the wrong gate but is is just a mater of time.
> As for the subject of this post I usually don't go where a firearm is not allowed  by whim or law. I would like to know if there are laws in Alaska about guns in parks.


Sorry dude, on Fort Campbell, Ft. Bragg, Ft Benning, Ft. Lewis, Ft. Hood, there are no civillian security personal maning the gates, the 2nd Mp company is the garrison mp unit and they man all the gates at Fort Campbell, I did six years at Ft. Campbell and travelled these other posts and return there and visit my friends at least twice a year and there is always an MP working the gate. 
And Wright Patterson Air Force Base is manned by Air Force Security Police, not civillian security, I was there not two weeks ago hanging with a friend in the PJs and every gate we went out had AFSP at it. Now Marine Camps I don't know about, or Naval Yards, but Army and most Air Force I can tell you matter of factly they are manned by military personal. I can't see the corp or Navy slacking either.
P.S. Most Army Forts have designated hunting areas, Campbell has several and there big, civillians can even place there names in the pools but GIs have precedence.

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## Rick

I never carry in a state or federal park. At the least I don't want banned and at the worst I don't want a felony that will prevent me from carrying anywhere. If you have to pull a gun then you've failed at the best defense, which is avoidance. Animals know what the other is thinking and the same is true with man. It's called efferent cues or body language. They can't conceal it. It's in the eyes, the way they stand, their overall demeanor. It's that "hair standing on the back of the neck" feeling you get with some folks. That's you interpreting their efferent cues. Listen to what they DO not what they SAY. Your gut sometimes knows more than your brain. Listen to it. 

I generally carry weapons on me. My walking staff, straight knife, etc and if I had to I would use them, not against a gun, of course. But I've spent a lot of time out there and while I've run into some goofy characters, I've never had anyone threaten me. Most are good folks that just try to let others be. 

I pack in the wild but not in a park. Just my thoughts on the subject.

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## Rifleman

The simple solution would be to allow ccw in parks. If someone has jumped through all the hoops to get thier ccw then you can pretty much bet they are not a trouble maker.
I could see them not allowing long guns if they were afraid of people poaching.

Also, has anyone ever noticed that most shootings seem to happen in "gun free" zones. I guess the criminal just didnt see the sign, or just maybe the sign told them that there would be no resistance there.

Every state will be different on how severe they punish you on something like that. Here in Oklahoma I once got to walk through the courthouse with my   ak47 under my arm. I had let one of my friends borrow it, and he proceeded to go spotlighting for deer down the dirtroads(poaching). A highway patrol happened to be going down one of the dirtroads and saw the spotlight beam. They got pulled over, and all that happened was the HP officer took the gun. 
The next day I went down to the courthouse and said that I had a gun confiscated from one of my friends. The sheriff goes in the back and comes out carrying my AK, and asked if this was it. I said that it was, and he handed it back, the ammo was even taped to the side of the magazine.

When I was leaving the courthouse there were quite a few people waiting in the hallway, I got some funny looks with that under my arm. After leaving I still had a ways to walk to my truck, and had a street to cross also.

I'd rather that not have happened, but how often do you get to walk through a courthouse with a AK47?

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## Ole WV Coot

I carry legally, a Beretta 45 Cougar. Also a SOG Flash II. I have carried for 40yrs and never let anyone know I had it on me. I have never played "don't mess with me" and pulled either the pistol or a knife. I avoid any place I ain't legal. I was taken to a hospital in an ambulance and the guard at the hospital was decent enough to lock the handgun up for a week until I was released and it was handed back to me. Most people are decent, if you are also. I made my choice and am willing to take to keep my hide in one piece. If the gun is ever pulled it will go bang and I will face whatever it brings. It's my choice and I made it many years ago.

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## Rick

I thought I'd give an update on CCW in parks. I checked with the National Forest folks here in Indiana as well as the State DNR. Both said is was okay to carry concealed if you had your license on you. We do have a few Corps of Engineer lakes and they say no.

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## MMonette

Hey, I know the thread hasn't seen a post in a while and this is off topic but you guys should check out rap4.com They specialize in paintball guns that look like real guns. They are even able to be shot through magazines. They also sell a less then lethal Pepper-ball (paintball but instead of paint its a pepper powder) type round that you can fire. This seems like the thing you guys want cause all th intimidation of a gun with the less than lethal ability of pepper spray.

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## crashdive123

MMonette - how 'bout heading over to the intro section here http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14 and tell us a bit about yourself.

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## Alpine_Sapper

can I get the url from that post in a PM?  :Big Grin:

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> how do you guys feel about carrying a concealed weapon in a state park? say in a more desolate area where you may encounter some knucklehead(s).
> 
> if a situation arises that you need to brandish your weapon or even use it, it may be worth it to have to deal with breaking the law, later. 
> 
> i'm thinking that if you have no criminal record and it's a first time offense, you should get probation..... although you'll still have a possible felony on your record and never be allowed to own firearms again....but alive.
> 
> especially if you're a woman. because in the woods, most people will already have at least a knife.  and a woman will usually lose in a knife fight. here's 2 female hikers who had their throats slit.
> 
> http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2...Questions.html



1.  NEVER get into a knife fight.  Anyone can lose one - not just women.
2.  If you're a felon DO NOT carry a firearm.  
3.  Here, you may carry a handgun if you possess a concealed handgun license.  You simply can't carry it into an administrative building within the park.

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## JRR

If you get attacked, and all you have is a knife, you damn well better get in a knife fight.

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## Rick

I hereby proclaim that it shall be illegal, immoral, unethical, and dangerous for me to get into a knife fight. There. No more worries of a knife fight. Life ain't that tough people.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> 1.  NEVER get into a knife fight.  Anyone can lose one - not just women.
> 2.  If you're a felon DO NOT carry a firearm.  
> 3.  Here, you may carry a handgun if you possess a concealed handgun license.  You simply can't carry it into an administrative building within the park.


There's not really much difference between a knife fight and a firefight in that regard.
There aren't that many people nowadays that have a CCL that practice quick draw, at least from the ones I know. But it could all come down to who's faster. And if not, who's more experienced, more levelheaded, and just plain luckier.  A knife fight is probably gonna go to the more experienced, so why not get out there and train? 

IMHO, you're 100 times more likely to use hand-to-hand combat skills in this society than you are to be running around with an AK-47 after an EOTWAWKI scenario. In fact, I use my h2h skills semi-regularly, whereas, I can't remember the last time I had to draw down on someone. And even if you do end up in that situation, what happens when you run out of ammo and can't find more?

I carry a knife ALL the time. Hell, I live in a city where there are so many knives on the street they outlawed locking folders. Better to be on even footing than at a disadvantage, and not everybody can get a CCL to have the advantage.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> If you get attacked, and all you have is a knife, you damn well better get in a knife fight.


I disagree.  Using a knife to stab or slash someone who has you in a hold as a get away tactic is one thing.  However, standing there and fighting with a knife like two indians is something totally different.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> There's not really much difference between a knife fight and a firefight in that regard.
> There aren't that many people nowadays that have a CCL that practice quick draw, at least from the ones I know. But it could all come down to who's faster. And if not, who's more experienced, more levelheaded, and just plain luckier.  A knife fight is probably gonna go to the more experienced, so why not get out there and train? 
> 
> IMHO, you're 100 times more likely to use hand-to-hand combat skills in this society than you are to be running around with an AK-47 after an EOTWAWKI scenario. In fact, I use my h2h skills semi-regularly, whereas, I can't remember the last time I had to draw down on someone. And even if you do end up in that situation, what happens when you run out of ammo and can't find more?
> 
> I carry a knife ALL the time. Hell, I live in a city where there are so many knives on the street they outlawed locking folders. Better to be on even footing than at a disadvantage, and not everybody can get a CCL to have the advantage.


Again....
I disagree. Using a knife to stab or slash someone who has you in a hold as a get away tactic is one thing. However, standing there and fighting with a knife like two indians is something totally different.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Again....
> I disagree.


*shrug* You're not the first. Definitely won't be the last. And if you were I'd start to get really worried.




> Using a knife to stab or slash someone who has you in a hold as a get away tactic is one thing. However, standing there and fighting with a knife like two indians is something totally different.


Sometimes you just don't have a choice. But to each their own. You handle the situation how you see fit, and I do the same.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> *shrug* You're not the first. Definitely won't be the last. And if you were I'd start to get really worried.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes you just don't have a choice. But to each their own. You handle the situation how you see fit, and I do the same.


Are you trained and familiarized with "edged weapon combat?"

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Are you trained and familiarized with "edged weapon combat?"


Yes. 

That's why I don't have a problem standing and fighting if I have to. Granted, it's definitely a last resort, but it's a situation I train for so I'm not scared of it.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

How did you train for it?  Military?  Law enforcement?  I'm LE, and I've seen the results.  I'll stab or slash to retreat, get someone from trying to get my pistol out of my holster, get out of a headlock or chokehold, etc, but I'm not about to "trade licks."

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## crashdive123

Arkansas Ranger - when you get a chance head on over to the intro section to tell us a bit about yourself.  You can find it here http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14

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## FVR

Knife fighting, ya gonna get cut.

Funny thing about knife fighting, everyone thinks that it's going to be a toe to toe, like in West Side Story, or like in the movies.  Some kind of civilized honor bu ll**** thing.  When most times, it's going to be a stab and run.  If they catch you by surprise, you may, if you are lucky, have enough time to beat feet.  If not, ya gonna be bleeding, proabaly to death.

The winner of a knife fight, just has not bled out yet.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> How did you train for it?  Military?  Law enforcement?  I'm LE, and I've seen the results.  I'll stab or slash to retreat, get someone from trying to get my pistol out of my holster, get out of a headlock or chokehold, etc, but I'm not about to "trade licks."


I'm ex-military, and I did a little training there, but I've been in martial arts since I was 7.  I can handle just about any hand to hand weapon with proficiency.  Some I prefer over others, but most of those aren't legal to carry.  I know a couple of guys that train in most of the arts taught around here, as I'm pretty heavy into it. I have a couple guys that train Modern Arnis and Ninjutsu that I work with pretty regularly. Not just weapons, but we do a lot of it.  

On top of that, I was a street kid, literally. I was homeless for periods of time between the ages of 14 and 19, and I didn't care much about preservation of life at that point. Thought I was invincible.  I have the scars to prove I'm not.  

I lived the typical street life, so I too have seen the results  of what happens when you slip. I have a friend who thought he was better than he was. Squared off against a pair of lesbians over some trap turf in an apartment complex. Almost bled to death before the EMT's go there. Stabbed 17 times. Only took one to take him down. The next 16 were just for grins.  He was extremely lucky. Others I've known not so much.

Like I said, it's a last resort. Personally, against most aggressor's armed with a blade, I'd rather disarm than "trade licks".  But I study styles that are about combat, not sport, I'm trying to incapacitate you with as few moves as possible, not knock you out. You might have a friend.  :Smile:  So if that means redirecting your blade and turning it on you, fine. If I have to draw a blade to distract you long enough for my wife to get my kid out of there, I've got no problems with that either.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Knife fighting, ya gonna get cut.
> 
> Funny thing about knife fighting, everyone thinks that it's going to be a toe to toe, like in West Side Story, or like in the movies.  Some kind of civilized honor bu ll**** thing.  When most times, it's going to be a stab and run.  If they catch you by surprise, you may, if you are lucky, have enough time to beat feet.  If not, ya gonna be bleeding, proabaly to death.
> 
> The winner of a knife fight, just has not bled out yet.


You'd be amazed how many people I've met been cut in a fight. I'd say 75% didn't go to the hospital over it. Not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just saying there are quite a few people out there that have no idea how to handle a blade and pull one because they don't know how to fight, either.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> Knife fighting, ya gonna get cut.
> 
> Funny thing about knife fighting, everyone thinks that it's going to be a toe to toe, like in West Side Story, or like in the movies.  Some kind of civilized honor bu ll**** thing.  When most times, it's going to be a stab and run.  If they catch you by surprise, you may, if you are lucky, have enough time to beat feet.  If not, ya gonna be bleeding, proabaly to death.
> 
> The winner of a knife fight, just has not bled out yet.



Well, West Side Story is what I call a "knife fight."  Like you, I feel knifing someone is more like using pepper spray - an opportunity to haul tail away.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> I'm ex-military, and I did a little training there, but I've been in martial arts since I was 7.  I can handle just about any hand to hand weapon with proficiency.  Some I prefer over others, but most of those aren't legal to carry.  I know a couple of guys that train in most of the arts taught around here, as I'm pretty heavy into it. I have a couple guys that train Modern Arnis and Ninjutsu that I work with pretty regularly. Not just weapons, but we do a lot of it.  
> 
> On top of that, I was a street kid, literally. I was homeless for periods of time between the ages of 14 and 19, and I didn't care much about preservation of life at that point. Thought I was invincible.  I have the scars to prove I'm not.  
> 
> I lived the typical street life, so I too have seen the results  of what happens when you slip. I have a friend who thought he was better than he was. Squared off against a pair of lesbians over some trap turf in an apartment complex. Almost bled to death before the EMT's go there. Stabbed 17 times. Only took one to take him down. The next 16 were just for grins.  He was extremely lucky. Others I've known not so much.
> 
> Like I said, it's a last resort. Personally, against most aggressor's armed with a blade, I'd rather disarm than "trade licks".  But I study styles that are about combat, not sport, I'm trying to incapacitate you with as few moves as possible, not knock you out. You might have a friend.  So if that means redirecting your blade and turning it on you, fine. If I have to draw a blade to distract you long enough for my wife to get my kid out of there, I've got no problems with that either.


If you're skilled to do it then by all means do it.  I am not skilled in that necessity.  A tactical officer once showed me a couple things as did a knife guru, but I'd rather "bust a cap" or "stick em and run."  Like the saying goes, don't bring a knife to a gun fight.   :Big Grin:

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## Arkansas_Ranger

> Arkansas Ranger - when you get a chance head on over to the intro section to tell us a bit about yourself.  You can find it here http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14


Done deal, bud.

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## FVR

I have a few friends who have been honing their skills for years.  I admire their discipline.  I'm sure glad I don't have to go through life thinking they way they do.  

I'd rather have a hammer.

If I have a knife, you won't see it.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> I have a few friends who have been honing their skills for years.  I admire their discipline.  I'm sure glad I don't have to go through life thinking they way they do.  
> 
> I'd rather have a hammer.
> 
> If I have a knife, you won't see it.


lol....Like I said in the UFC thread, I do it for the fun of it. Adrenaline junkie. Some people jump out of planes. Some bungee jump or ride motorcycles.  I fight. I just do it in a controlled environment nowadays.  :Cool:  The law, and having kids tend to put a damper on the streetfights and bar brawls.  

But you're right, a hammer would be more effective in most peoples hands.

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## Arkansas_Ranger

I found this thing used to stab the ground to plant bulbs.  Is something like T-1000 would've generated in Terminator 2.  Could do some serious stabbing with it.  Just bounced into my head.

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## FVR

Yeh, I stopped my brawling years ago, 15 to be exact.  I use to really enjoy fighting, it was just awsome.  I know, the rush you are talking about, it's just..........................

I've walked away from about 4 since then.  It's hard, but I have too much to lose nowdays.  Wife and kids, nice house, dogs, a good job, just not worth it.

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## Sam

> I have a few friends who have been honing their skills for years.  I admire their discipline.  I'm sure glad I don't have to go through life thinking they way they do.  
> 
> I'd rather have a hammer.
> 
> If I have a knife, you won't see it.


 I'm with FVR, I avoid problems on the street. I carry a SOG folder for whatever, but I don't look at it as a first defense, heck I wear a size 13 boot with a steel toe that seems to work just fine. I don't trust myself to carry a pistol all the time, seems like a remote control with a BIG off button. I avoid trouble with folks because I don't know how to just rough someone up.

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## FVR

Be aware of your sourroundings and you will be fine.  I also wear steel toes, 24/7, they are just so comfy.  

I work in a few bad areas of Atlanta, yet to have a problem.  Knock on wood.  I keep an eye out, see everything, and always, always have my phone, two knives, a big screw driver or a hammer.

My truck is always close by, it has USMC stickers on it and I have found that most will not want to take a chance.  Also, I'm bald and been told I look mean.  So, if someone is going to mess with me, they may be a little crazy, so I just take precautions.

Funny, I do the same exact thing in the woods.

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## crashdive123

> Also, I'm bald and been told I look mean.


Mean?  You?  Nah.

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## Ole WV Coot

FVR you got it right. I worked in many bad areas especially D.C. As I mentioned before I can but don't carry everywhere. I have been in and seen many fights, never saw in all my years two idiots trying to slice & dice each other. I have seen a few, lasted way less than a minute and the guy never knew what hit him. If I had to use mine it wouldn't be seen either, and working I liked a manhole hook myself. At my age I have no option to outrun, but I carry a walking stick which I think is much is faster, deadlier and always underestimated. I am well trained in it's use and it's legal everywhere. Combined with other offenses (I don't ever play defense) I can use I don't worry much except for a gun. Any idiot can pull a trigger.

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## crashdive123

It's been said many times to never bring a knife to a gun fight.  Here's an article where maybe it would have been a good idea.  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080421/..._rage_shooting

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## FVR

That is like the guys who practice their quick draw, and shoot their toes off. LOL.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> That is like the guys who practice their quick draw, and shoot their toes off. LOL.


Those are the guys that NEED to invest in a crossdraw rig.

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## FVR

Hey, you making fun of my crossdraw rig? Huh, huh.  LOL.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Hey, you making fun of my crossdraw rig? Huh, huh.  LOL.


roflmao. Nope, I prefer 'em myself.

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## JRR

> I disagree.  Using a knife to stab or slash someone who has you in a hold as a get away tactic is one thing.  However, standing there and fighting with a knife like two indians is something totally different.


So what's the alternative?  run and get stabbed in the back?  Stand there and plead for your life?  I don't know crap about knife fighting, but if someone attacks me with a knife, I DO know the pointy end goes into the bad guy and I will try my best to do just that to the best of my ability.

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## Sam

> So what's the alternative?  run and get stabbed in the back?  Stand there and plead for your life?  I don't know crap about knife fighting, but if someone attacks me with a knife, I DO know the pointy end goes into the bad guy and I will try my best to do just that to the best of my ability.


 If you're facing a person with a knife and can not escape, kick like a girl. Shoes/boots and pants give you good protection and the leg is more powerful and has good reach. Just my .02 on this.

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## canid

plus if unless they get you near the groin, a cut or stab to the leg is not likely to be fatal. my lady was stabbed in the leg. she can't ride a bike uphill anymore, and is leery of bowling alleys now, but that's a different matter.

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## Rick

If you are down to fighting, you've failed at all the precursor tells. Avoidance is the best way to win any kind of fight. Yeah, I know. There are sometimes you get surprised but, for the most part, guys don't bother to keep their mouth shut and what was a small problem escalates into something really serious. It must be all that testosterone circulating in all the bull sh**.

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## Ole WV Coot

I think my testosterone bled out or dried up years ago. It ain't a game and I am aware and very comfortable with what I carry. I couldn't run fast enough but I always get underestimated. I just keep my mouth shut now. I feel very comfortable with a cane against a knife knowing the majority of kiddies don't know how to use one. All they know is show you the blade, you quake with fear and give them whatever. Anyone remember the story about Applegate I believe dropping 2 hoods in NYC when he was over 80 with his cane?

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## JRR

Sure, I understand that.  I never want to get in a fight if it can be helped.  But sometimes there's no avoiding it. Then you fight with your knife, a newspaper, teeth and nails, a rock, whatever you can lay your hands on.

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