# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Hunting & Trapping >  Wanting to learn hunting and trapping

## Hemingway

I have spent a lot of time reading about hunting and such, but unfortunately, due to my surroundings, the opportunity to have first hand experience is limited. The Southern California culture is not exactly friendly to this and I believe it is too late for me to get my license to hunt during this Fall's season. 

All this being said, I know if I am determined enough, I will be able to develop the skills and grow in experience if it is my priority. 

During the summer of 2009 I will be heading up to backpack in Alaska for a while and hunting, trapping and skinning are all necessary skills I will be using up north. I still have a lot to learn. 

Just thought maybe this winter during my semester break I could try to get some of this experience in preparation for Alaska. It looks like many people on this forum have a wealth of knowledge and experience in hunting, etc. I am hoping someone might be willing to take me under their wing and teach me the ropes and help me get some practical application. I wish I had the people locally to help, but that isn't the lifestyle of my area. 

If anyone knows people in southern California that might be able to guide me or would be willing to take a couple days or more to teach me how to hunt and set up snares, etc this winter, it would be very much appreciated and play a pivotal contribution to my skill set as I head to Alaska this summer. I am more than happy to travel to other states to develop these skills as I will have December/January off and love road trips. 

Just some thoughts, any ideas or help would be great.

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## tsitenha

Talk to Klkak, Hopeak they are from that neck of the woods and have solid based experience.

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## Jericho117

Your in a tight spot. Just practcie with your weapon on targets in the forests. Yes, nothing close to the real expierience but on days when I can't hunt I usually practice on targets. Practice stalking at your house, and start getting information and actually studying all the species of animals in Alaska. You don't need people to teach you things, im self-taught, I taught myself how to hunt and trap animals, so you could to. What type of weapon are you using, and are you primitive hunting or using GPS and advanced gear?

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## Gray Wolf

> Just some thoughts, any ideas or help would be great.


If you want to learn a few things about trapping I think you should read this sticky by Beo on Traps and Trapping. Just to get an idea on the tools and concept.
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=3974

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## skunkkiller

I hope you have fun in alaska that said read and shoot practice is all self taught have a good time learning.

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## Hemingway

I was more thinking it might help in regards to preparing the meat properly after the hunt. The last thing I'd want to happen is screw up getting the meat ready because "the book told me this" and it didn't work out exactly like the pictures showed.

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## crashdive123

Somebody suggested in another thread to check and see if there is a taxidermist nearby - they may be able to help.

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## Riverrat

Also talk to a local butcher, preferably one who deals with wild game. Might be able to teach you what you are looking for. Is there a local shooting range? May be some contacts made there....

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## RobertRogers

I agree - if you are a newbie you can really errr ... butcher ... a carcass while butchering it.  I suggest having a professional butcher do the work.

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## Sourdough

Move to Alaska, and get a job with a hunting guide. You'll learn stuff you'll wish you did not know.

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## Jericho117

That makes no sense

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I used to find Books about trapping, I read one that was originaly written in the Daniel Boone days. I would look in the antique stores of Kentucy or tenn. those southern folks are big on trappin'

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## DOGMAN

> ... get a job with a hunting guide. You'll learn stuff you'll wish you did not know.


"That makes no sense" Jericho117

Actually, if you've ever worked in the hunting outfitting industry it makes tons of sense.  After over a decade of making a good portion of my living from helping people harvest "trophy big game" animals. I can tell you there is alot of things I wish I hadn't seen, heard, learned or did.  After a client spends close to $10,000 bucks on licenses, airfare, the hunt, tip, new gear etc... there expectations are rather high.  It can lead even scrupulous people to do things that in hindsight they wish they hadn't.  There are lots of shades of gray when it comes to defining "fair chase" hunting ethics.

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## Hemingway

Jason,  what do you mean?

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## Sourdough

> That makes no sense


I wish I did not know how to crash aircraft, endure 115 MPH wind in a eureka tent, have dozens of camps destroyed by brown bears, shared a tent with buttholes, deal with insubordinate, arrogant assistant guides, had blood from backing fresh meat all over my body, and no water to wash, gone into the alder thickets after wounded brown bears. shivered for weeks at -30 below zero, destroyed thousands of dollars worth of personal equipment. Packed meat for weeks on end, fed millions of mosquito's, and white socks. been stuck on a cliff to scared to go up or down. Packed two Dall Sheep off the mountain in one 200# plus load. Get up at 3:AM fix breakfast, work till 10:PM all the time sicker than a dog, (there are no sick days in the field). Be stuck in a tent with someone you don't know, who starts crying and telling you about how two weeks ago he and another guy killed someone. Having someone commit suicide, because you caught them going through clients gear looking for drugs. Be bear bited. My coffee is ready, or I could go on for pages.

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## DOGMAN

> Jason,  what do you mean?


Well, by shades of gray defining "Fair chase" hunting ethics, I guess I mean, there are blurry lines as to what is right and wrong.  Ultimatly, right and wrong gets much more subjective, when people are deep in the wilderness and think nobody (game warden etc..) is around looking.  Also, the more money clients spend- the more willing- sometimes the more demanding- they are of harvesting game at any cost.  They can put pressure on guides and outfitters to bend the law.

Disclaimer: I have never done any of this stuff, I just have heard about it.

Examples- 
-Shooting Game in a National Park, then dragging them back across the park boundry to field dress, and quarter them.
-Shooting game before or after shooting light.  
-Setting out salt licks, and then hunting over them.
-Allowing one person to shoot the animal, and then put someone else's tag on it
-The client shoots a bull from several hundred yards, when you and he get to it, he isn't happy with its size and wanted a "real wall hanger" not a rag horn, so you leave it there- never tag it and continue hunting for a bigger bull.
-Going into a National Park or Preserve (were it is illegal to hunt) on horseback and creating an "elk drive" towards the boundry were 8 clients are waiting to slaughter the herd of Elk you push towards them.  After all the bullets fly you realize your clients have killed 12 elk, and combined you only have 8 tags- so you tag the best and leave the rest.

I could go on and on...but I am getting sick just thinking about all this stuff.

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## Sourdough

Here is a gray area, Archery sports writer brings friend to hunt with rifle, while he hunts with bow. If he arrows a big brown bear badly, and "IF" I have to go into the pucker brush to Finnish it, it is disqualified from P&Y entry. And his hunt is over, he is out $15,000.- and no story to write. But I if take the other hunter in, and he shoots the arrowed bear, while I keep him covered in case of a charge. Is it improper for his friend to tag the bear...? He killed it. And if he tags it, his friend can try the get a Pope and Young Brown Bear cleanly.

Or a hunter wounds a trophy moose the last day of the season. The next day you find the moose still alive and the hunter finishes it. He "Killed" the moose out of season. Tag it, bag it. And move on to the next hunt. Or turn him in for poaching. What if it is two days later, or four days later....????

Or take Jason's example and turn it around, The hunter shoots the Bear 5 miles outside the park, but the bear dies in the park or on the line. The lines for parks are often mountain peaks, and if it is snowing hard you can't see the peaks. There are no red or white dotted lines on the ground marking boundries.

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## trax

Jason, I'm not trying to be rude towards what you do, because I believe guys like you doing what you do make the bush a safer place (cuz them guys are gonna show up anyway! so they better have a guide) but those shades of gray are a big part of why I don't do it. I have in my past life but not anymore.

There's a story I like about "shades of gray" Supposedly a true story, the playwright George Bernard Shaw was being harrassed and annoyed by a young woman in a restaurant so he turns to her and says

"madam would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

"Why yes, Mr. Shaw," she comes back, "I believe I would"

"Well, would you sleep with me for ten dollars?"

"Sir!" she's all indignant now, "what do you think I am?"

"Madam, we've established what you are, now we're just negotiating a price"

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## Sourdough

> "Madam, we've established what you are, now we're just negotiating a price"


That is why Hunting Guides are sometimes called "Hunting Whores". You have a skill, and someone pays to use it, it ain't pretty, but you get to hunt four months a year, and see country you could never afford to see. Hunting Whore, yea; there are worse jobs, If you look at it one way, anyone who does work for money is a whore. My friend call's himself a Pallet Whore, It is on his business card. The company makes pallets.

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## DOGMAN

Actually, I'd say "I'm retired" This was the first season in a long time that I am not guiding hunters- and I feel great about it. I still outfit and guide for river recreationalist and sled dog tours, but I think my days of gaining profit from killing stuff is over- unless...of course, I need the money.

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## trax

> That is why Hunting Guides are sometimes called "Hunting Whores". ... If you look at it one way, anyone who does work for money is a whore. ...


Well personally I always wanted to be a just the regular old kind of whore, but apparently I would have starved to death so...that didn't work out.  :EEK!: 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled PG14 programming and apologize for the interruption.

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## Rick

Old ones would starve, Trax. It's the young ones that make the money.....so I hear.

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## nell67

> Well personally I always wanted to be a just the regular old kind of whore, but apparently I would have starved to death so...that didn't work out. 
> 
> We now return you to your regularly scheduled PG14 programming and apologize for the interruption.


Oh really??? Somehow,I don't think you would have starved......... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Rick

Well, back in his "younger" days...... :Big Grin:

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## nell67

Well now......ok Trax.I'll shut up now...... :Wink:

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## trax

"whew" thought I was going to have to drop my bag of quarters on Rick's head.

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## Rick

Nickels? You did say nickels, right?

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## crashdive123

Was gonna ask which cheapskate gave you a quarter.....guess it was all of em.

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## Ole WV Coot

I could teach a person how to stalk, dress animals, shoot and lots of other good stuff. But I don't get any enjoyment out of killing just for a trophy. I have seen deer killed for their rack only and a few killed for head mounts. These I just ran across in the woods. I see nothing wrong in taking any game in or out of season if one needs food. At my present age I don't get a rush out of killing anymore. If you do, have at it, I don't.

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## Hemingway

I have no desire for trophy hunting. Simply put, I want to develop the skills so I am cable of getting food in the bush.

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## Sourdough

> I have no desire for trophy hunting. Simply put, I want to develop the skills so I am cable of getting food in the bush.


What about a trophy wife, trophy home, write the great American novel, trophy education, trophy job or career, trophy stock portfolio.....? Here is a question why have any desirer's. What ever is, is perfect.

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## Fletcher

> What about a trophy wife, trophy home, write the great American novel, trophy education, trophy job or career, trophy stock portfolio.....? Here is a question why have any desirer's. What ever is, is perfect.


 HopeAK,   did you put your philosopher boots on today?

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## FVR

Are you a more successful hunter if you shoot a big ol 12pt buck or a big doe?

Gonna eat better if you shoot the doe.

May get a few tools out of the 12pt rack.  Ah, with the trohy deer, you can brag of just how much of a man you are, kind of like an extension of your penis.


Trophy hunters are what will eventually kill the hunting seasons.  They start growing their deer, then baiting them, then killing them just to have a head mounted on their wall.  It's not about eating wild game anymore, but rather a wall hanger.  The areas with deer are then leased, to bait, to grow.  Slowly the land you could hunt gets sold, public land also starts getting sold or leased.  If you can find some, it's usually over crowded.

The future lends itself to those who want to hunt, must have alot of money.

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## Fletcher

Fvr I'm with ya on these so called Trophy hunters................Well they are NOT hunters
they go for GLORY  TRASH talk look at my deer head aint he a big one! And then they tell you of the great hunt useing dogs, calls, bait, salt licks and so on and so on. What has happen to finding a deer trail or a good cossing?  These guys will not leave the freaking ROAD! They will spend $34000 on a four wheel drive.............Just to look COOL on thier way to work. Most of these guys have never been in the woods or if they have it was on a interstate hiway!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Gray Wolf

> That is why Hunting Guides are sometimes called "Hunting Whores". You have a skill, and someone pays to use it,


I have never thought of myself as a whore, even from my very first job at 10 years old. I am lucky to have, for the most part the same clients for years. The same fresh water fisherman and the same hunters. The past few years I've wound up taking on some new clients, photographers, yea they're looking for the best shot too! They help my income between seasons. 

I am on board with Leave No Trace. I make their excursions safer. I don't allow anything that is not legal, and I can't be bought to look the other way. In any job, there are people that are good and honest, and then there are people that are lazy, lie and steal. Guess it's always a mater of morels and work ethics...

Why do people hire tour guides in foreign places. Why do people hire real estate agents to find a new home. Why do people hire contractors to build their homes. I could go on, but it just comes down to 'it's not their line of work, or knowledge'.

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## crashdive123

Gray Wolf - you make an important distinction.  In business there are those that for $$$ will leave their ethics at the door.  This is not unique to hunting guides.  Unfortunately it is prevalent in much of society today, and regardless of the industry will cause harm.

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## LudwigVan

I'm with everyone here against trophy hunting. What amuses me though are the fake hunters who go to hunting expos and buy the mounts, hang them over the fireplace and tell stories about it.

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## Fletcher

> I'm with everyone here against trophy hunting. What amuses me though are the fake hunters who go to hunting expos and buy the mounts, hang them over the fireplace and tell stories about it.


I thought that was our little secret.

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## DOGMAN

Just a note on "trophy hunting" ethics that should at least be mentioned for those of you who arent familiar with the philosophies and merits of the pursuit. Jack O'Conner is considered by some to be the dean of modern trophy hunting...however, his original ethos has been corrupted.

For O'Conner trophy hunting was considered the most evolved type of hunting, and the most ethical and sporting of all hunting- the reason being was it showed the most restraint.  O'Conner only hunted male animals at the peak of their life...basically when  they were at their biggest and baddest in their life cycle. O'Conner would set his goals on a rack of a certain caliber and spend days, months or even years in search for that perfect specimen that was at the peak of form.  He showed restraint because he would pass up so many other "lesser" animals- in search of the one trophy.  He reasoned that he had to learn more about his quarry... he had to spend more time in the field...and basically had to be a better hunter and be more ethical than your average meat hunter, because he had a set criteria that had to be met before he'd pull the trigger.  I can see what he means...trophy hunting in its purist form is "sporting" and in fact, a true trophy hunter could hunt for years and years and never even kill anything.

However, O'Conner prophesized that his passion would be corrupted...he wrote that by putting a numerical value on racks, that hunting would develop into an ego contest and overly competitive people would not hunt the animals out of appreciation and admiration- but to fulfill their ego.  I agree.

Another interesting thing about O'Conner was his love for the .270 he killed all kinds of really big game with that caliber.

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## Fletcher

[QUOTE=Jason_Montana;78368]

However, O'Conner prophesized that his passion would be corrupted...he wrote that by putting a numerical value on racks, that hunting would develop into an ego contest and overly competitive people would not hunt the animals out of appreciation and admiration- but to fulfill their ego.  I agree.

These are the guys I can't handle. Makes me want to hunt them.

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## trax

and of course, if people are out there to only kill the absolute best of the best of the males of any species, eventually they'll weaken the species won't they...because the less than the best are the ones now breeding.

and...nothing wrong with a .270 as far as I know.

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## DOGMAN

Trax-Alot of people think a .270 is a little small for elk, moose, bear, etc... O'Conner proved that a with well placed shot it was a great caliber.

Also, about killing the best of the best...again O'Conner was well thought out.  He believed that if you only hunted the true giants, and kept restraint and only killed the real trophies- that so few animals would be harvested (because of their rarity) that game populations would increase.  He also reasoned that "trophies" didn't necessarily account for an unusual number of breedings...just the typical amount for there species, so there genes are not disproportinate in the gene pool.  Also, its been documented in many species (elk, rams, deer, etc...) that often times when the big males are sparring with other big males that smaller males (satellite bulls) are in the background breeding the females.

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## trax

> .....
>   Also, its been documented in many species (elk, rams, deer, etc...) that often times when the big males are sparring with other big males that smaller males (satellite bulls) are in the background breeding the females.


heheheheheheh, clever little buggers, I'm proud of 'em.

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## crashdive123

Seems as though some of the elk, rams and deer scored higher on the IQ test than the gorillas.

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## DOGMAN

That was always my approach in high school.  While all the big studs were playing Friday Night Football, I was in the bleachers making their girlfriends laugh.  It paid off a time or two.

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## Rick

And it takes the biggest and best animals out of the gene pool leaving lesser animals to serve at the apex for that specie.

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## DOGMAN

> And it takes the biggest and best animals out of the gene pool leaving lesser animals to serve at the apex for that specie.



That is assuming that they never bred...most likely since they are at the height of their maturity they have done alot of breeding already...but, being harvested at their very prime, means that they are about to begin their decline in physicality and sexuality.

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## Sourdough

Rick, is just upset, because he is past his prime, and does not want to be harvested.......... :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

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## JoelD311

> I wish I did not know how to crash aircraft, endure 115 MPH wind in a eureka tent, have dozens of camps destroyed by brown bears, shared a tent with buttholes, deal with insubordinate, arrogant assistant guides, had blood from backing fresh meat all over my body, and no water to wash, gone into the alder thickets after wounded brown bears. shivered for weeks at -30 below zero, destroyed thousands of dollars worth of personal equipment. Packed meat for weeks on end, fed millions of mosquito's, and white socks. been stuck on a cliff to scared to go up or down. Packed two Dall Sheep off the mountain in one 200# plus load. Get up at 3:AM fix breakfast, work till 10:PM all the time sicker than a dog, (there are no sick days in the field). Be stuck in a tent with someone you don't know, who starts crying and telling you about how two weeks ago he and another guy killed someone. Having someone commit suicide, because you caught them going through clients gear looking for drugs. Be bear bited. My coffee is ready, or I could go on for pages.


Jeez man, eff all that. I just wanna get away from the Matrix  :Smile:  Speaking of all that chaos though, has anyone ever read the book called, "Into Thin Air"? Freaking amazing book. Did you know that there are probably 10's of dead bodies on the trail to the summit and no one can get them down for proper burrial because at that altitude you are barely strong enough to pull yourself along the way much less another 200lb body... Anyhow its a good book.

Joel

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## BH206L3

Well I let a doe walk the other day and a 6 point Buck, too. I don't like guys who will shoot the first thing that walks by then ***** that there are no good bucks in the woods anymore. In order to have good bucks, you need to let the little ones walk, take a dry doe for meat. I hunt big game, and some times it gets muddled we fight to much among ourselves, ie hunting for big racks are wrong, no its not, a buck deer or Bull elk that has lived long enough to grow big enough antlers to go to the book, has passed his genes on, 6 or 7 year old Deer or Elk is on the back side of the curve. My last big buck I shot was a well passed prime white tail, maybe 8 years old, and was not going to make it thru the winter, shot him post rut, no fat the old guy what just worn out.  He was one of the very best deer I ever taken.  It was Elgin Gates not Jack O'Connor, tho he wrote well that defined the Modern World Traveling Hunter of note. Hunted the Golden Age, 1946 to 1975. Its different now, on one hand we have a lot more game to hunt in North America, and on the other hand, to many don't have the time. As for money well, I got news for you Big Game Hunting was never a cheap sport, be it deer on your own land here in CT or Elk on the Apache Reservation in New Mexico. What dose not cost in money is going to cost in time and somethings it takes both a lot of money and a lot of time. Jack use to hunt elk, and they were 30 day pack trips with horses and the whole lot, cost a bunch of cash for the time and to do today you would need a lot of money. On the other hand, there are more Elk around than in his day. It evens out some I guess. One thing I do know is that once a buck gets pass three years of age they almost always move in the dark and bed during the day light hours.  Guys have a great hunting season no matter where and what you hunt. It's suppose to recharge the batteries if you will.

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## fishpole

shot a doe last saterday that was 4 1/2 years old. doubt awful much she woulda made it through winter. she was missing teeth and had gray hairs. she dressed out at about 155lbs. good eating right there, and a good deer to take out of the herd as she could no longer carry no less ween fawns come spring. id also like to add that after all this animal has gone through, all the seasons it has survived, the young it has raised, and the predatores it has evaded...this doe is no less "trophy" than a 12 pt. buck and i respect just as much.
-cory

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## Rick

That's cool. Respect for the animal is important in my book. nice post, Cory.

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## fishpole

thanks rick, i find it hard to hunt with other people sometimes because of their complete lack of respect for their quarry. if this animal is going to give its life than you must recognize that you have an emense responsibility to take it cleaning and humanly as possible. reguardless of its rack or lack of. this is something that was instilled in me since day one by my father and the few ppl i chose to hunt with. i dont mean to rant but the things i here and some of the things i see in the way people conduct themselves when pursueing game absolutly disgusts me. to deprive and animal of its life, to sustain your own, is a gift and should be treated as so. call me spiritual, or w/e you want but thats just the way i am and the way i always will be. its nice to see other's on this forum with the same thinking.
-cory

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## crashdive123

You're not ranting Cory, you are amongst a lot of like minded people.

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## fishpole

so ive noticed crash lol, its a nice change!

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## username

hemingway.. If your going to target shoot in order to practice for a live hunt I would highly recommend that you practice regulating your breathing in order to control your heart rate.  Maybe take 10-15 quick breaths to get your heart racing then take at least 4 deep slow breaths while you aim to bring your heart rate back down and to help oxygen to get to your muscles so you will shake less.  Squeeze the trigger very slowly and only on the middle of an exhale.  I try to squeeze slowly enough that I'm surprised when the gun fires.

I say this because the first time you see a trophy buck your heart rate will jump probably 40 bpm and that will seriously effect your concentration and accuracy.

I wouldn't repeat this process too often or you may pass out  :Smile:

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## fishpole

hemmingway- 
what kinda weapon are you lookin into getting here anyway? rifle, shotgun, handgun? all 3? or maybe even a bow? although i do love them id take a firearm over a bow for alaska.

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