# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Living In The Remote Wilderness. . . .

## Nativedude

Living in the remote wilderness is not harder, it is a mindset. You have to have a true desire to want to live that way or you will fail. . .PERIOD!! Most people of today are too soft both mentally and physically to make it.

It becomes a lifestyle that makes you feel good. It's a lifestyle that is conducive to keeping you healthy and fit. You sleep peacefully and soundly at night. . .don't need a sleeping pill. Don't have credit cards to worry about. A mortgage to worry about paying off. Being in debt up to your eyeballs, etc. 

You can live alone and survive without a problem, I've done it for many years. But, the key to living a solitary (away from society) lifestyle, whether by yourself or with another person or family, must be undertaken in steps.

You can't expect to go from Chicago to the mountains of Alaska in a years time. You have to start small and work your way up to full-blown, full-time "Grizzly Adams" type of living.

1.)  If you live in a big city or metropolitan/suburban area, you have to move to a rural "farmland" area. Live in a house that uses only firewood for heating & cooking. Practice cutting firewood (enough to heat the house for the winter & cooking). It will take some time to figure out how much you will actually need.

2.)  Finding a house with no indoor water or don't use the plumbing and learning to haul water from a well to use for bathing, cooking, washing clothes, etc

3.)  Learn to use oil lamps for lighting. NO grid or generator lighting. And learn to render animal fat to make your own lamp oil.

4.)  Learn to grow a garden, harvest the crops, can or dry the fruits and veggies for storage.

5.)  Mend your own clothing, or even how to make your own clothes.

6.)  Learn a craft that you can make money for supplies. Making jewelry, or leather-crafting, or rustic furniture, or canning things like: preserves, salsas, apple butter, sliced fruit, etc.

7.) If you're not a hunter, learn to hunt. If you are a hunter, learn to gut and butcher the meat. Learn how to salt, or smoke, or dry the meat for storage.

These are just a few of the of the beginning basics to get started on the path to being just like Grizzly Adams.

I've been in the woods my entire life. I am very comfortable and adept living out here, but before I took the big plunge I, too, tested the waters before jumping in head first.

I lived in the country, on a farm for 5 years, all the while teaching survival. Next I lived in a cave for two summers and one winter, in WY. During these seven years I was planning and preparing for the big leap into solitude.

Two years before I moved full time I lived for a year in AK. 80 miles from the nearest town, in an old trappers cabin.

It took me 8 years of planning and progressive remote living before taking the plunge. Now I live 240 miles from the nearest town and only go into town twice a year for supplies, and once every other year to visit family for the holidays.

I schedule my trips to town during the times when the trade & swap shows are taking place. I sell the things that I've canned and the furniture I make throughout the winter. I live off $2500 - $3000 per year.

So, there you have it. Nativedude's beginning steps to living like Grizzly Adams, Sourdough, and Me!  :Thumbup:

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## DOGMAN

Wow, thats pretty impressive.  I have all the skills you list down pat, except the no bills part.  I make about 30 times (thats net, not gross) what you do, and still have debts.

For me, living simply is pretty damned complicated. I need some free land!  I live wild, just not free. Good work Native Dude!

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## nell67

Awesome post ND!

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## crashdive123

Nice post Native Dude.

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## Pal334

This is a good informative post. I do not agree though with your statement:_Most people of today are too soft both mentally and physically to make it._
THere are alot of folks that may not be suited to the solitude that you have chosen, just as for example they may not be suited to be a fireman. But I would think that a person with desire, who follows the guidelines for preparation like those you have shared could certainly have a better idea how they would fare before making the plunge.

Again, thank you for the food for thought

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## Sourdough

ND, Nice Post.......

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## rwc1969

very interesting! I'd like to hear more about your day to day living. You know! Are there roads? Do you have a vehicle? what if it breaks down? Is it possible to get a girl back in there every blue moon or what? :Smile:  How do you have internet access? Electricity? Gas?

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## Rick

RWC, Nativedude has made a lot of excellent posts including the answers to many of your questions. You might scan through some of his threads. Really good stuff!

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## Top it off - let it idle

Really interesting post. Like RWC1969 I'm curious about your solutions to electrical needs and internet access in such a remote location. I really enjoy being unplugged but also appreciate some of the things that being connected also provide.

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## doug1980

Great thread.  Very good advice.  :Smile:

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## Nativedude

Thanks everybody for the kind acknowledgments, much appreciation!

As for answers to the questions. . . .

1.) No roads. Fly-in or canoe/portage only. I have 2 freighter canoes, 1 - 18' & 1 - 21' for hauling supplies and getting back and forth.

2.) If you can find a girl willing to go that far (*snicker*)

3.) No electricity. All lighting courtesy of oil lamps and homemade lamp oil.

4.) All heating and cooking is done by fire. My fireplace is built to heat my 16x20 cabin, a built in stone bread oven for roasting and baking and a swing arm kettle for cooking stews, soups, beans, etc.

4.) I do have a satellite cell phone w/3 long life batteries (to keep in touch with family, emergencies, etc.) I have connection to internet through satellite link up.

5.) I use 3 Brunton portable solar chargers to keep my phone and laptop batts. charged, and I have 2 Optima deep cycle batteries for extra pwr. (if need be.)

I teach survival and primitive living skills so I have to keep in touch to keep it running, schedule clientele, and keep informed as to their arrival times.

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## crashdive123

I'd love to see some pictures of your homestead and how you have it set up.

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## Mischief

Great post.
I agree,most people today are too soft to make it,including me,
I belive I have the will and desire, just too darn old and worn out.
If I knew I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself when I was young.
Still can do it just not as fast or as long.Use my head a lot more now.
Mischief

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## Winnie

A very enlightening post ND. I really do congrtaulate you (and anyone else for that matter) who chooses this lifestyle and makes it work.
This was something I wanted to do many years ago and was well on the way, then divorce, serious illness and trying to support myself and Winnie jnr got in the way. I still hanker for a simple life but I'm realistic enough to know I'd never make it without a partner to help.

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## Stony

my cudos, ND.
with about $ 200/month living costs, what do you do about reading material?
subscriptions? 2nd hand books?

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## oldsoldier

> Thanks everybody for the kind acknowledgments, much appreciation!
> 
> As for answers to the questions. . . .
> 
> 1.) No roads. Fly-in or canoe/portage only. I have 2 freighter canoes, 1 - 18' & 1 - 21' for hauling supplies and getting back and forth.
> 
> 2.) If you can find a girl willing to go the far (*snicker*)
> 
> 3.) No electricity. All lighting courtesy of oil lamps and homemade lamp oil.
> ...


Man I am SOoooooo JEALOUS  :Innocent:

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## Nativedude

> Stony wrote: *"my cudos, ND.
> with about $ 200/month living costs, what do you do about reading material?
> subscriptions? 2nd hand books?"*


I was 8 years old when I saw the Rocky Mountains of Colorado on TV. After seeing them, I told my Mom, _"That's where I want to live when I grow up!"_ At age 12 I started to collect books and magazines. I never read them, just collected them for a future date. I was preparing for a life in Colorado (back in the 70's).

The summer I turned 18 I headed out to Colorado to see the Rockies for myself. While the mountains were beautiful, I was sorely disappointed at the lack of truly remote areas.

After doing much research, I found three main places I wanted to live. Montana, The Yukon Territory, or Alaska. These were the only places with enough remote wilderness to meet my needs.

Well, long story short, by the time I was ready to move to AK, I had collected over 325 books and 500 periodicals (magazines). To date, I have read 75 books and 92 magazines. Also, I do pick up a book here and there at swap meets and used magazines from a bush pilot friend of mine when he and his wife come to visit and hunt thrice a year.

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## rwc1969

thanks for the response Native dude. But, I'm with Winnie. I couldn't make it without a partner. Too much for me to do on a day to day basis and I'd get too lonely. I suppose I could carve a smile on my bowling ball and call it Brunswick, :.)

I think it's great that you are able to do this. It's always been a dream of mine. Thinkin back, I believe it was "Grizzly Adams" that got me started.

I've got to ask what if you had appendicitis or something?

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## Stony

thank for your answer ND.
reading material is always a big issue for us (girls & I) when we go to camp.
we spend about 2 grand on books and periodicals per year. we rather have no bread than have no books.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

This is an Excellent post!!! If I didn't have a family I would try and do what you have done.

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## panch0

Wow very interesting thread. I wish my family would go for something close to that way of life. My wife needs neigbors and family close by.

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## Nativedude

Maybe we should make this thread a sticky for all of the newbies to read?

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## Rick

Done!!!!!!

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## Nativedude

Thank you Sir!!!!!!

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## wildWoman

Great post  :Smile:  You did it the smart way, slowly over time. How far to the closest road? Chainsaw or handsaw, and how do you haul in your wood? Canning or drying, rootcellar?

I find it funny how people who flirt with the idea always immediately spell out why they can't do something like this, instead of focussing on the reasons why they can.

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## Rick

WW - I think that's pretty true with just about anything in life. Anyone can tell you why it CAN'T be done. It takes someone with some forward thinking to tell you why it CAN be done.

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## crashdive123

Like my signature line says.......

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## Nativedude

> WildWoman wrote: *"Great post  You did it the smart way, slowly over time. How far to the closest road? Chainsaw or handsaw, and how do you haul in your wood? Canning or drying, root cellar?
> 
> I find it funny how people who flirt with the idea always immediately spell out why they can't do something like this, instead of focusing on the reasons why they can."*


First, let me say thank you Wildwoman. There are no roads within 240 miles. Everything done by double bit axe and Swedish bucking saw. I cut and haul the trees close to my cabin. I let them stand for at least 6 - 10 months before cutting and splitting into firewood size.

I can fruits and veggies, smoke & dry meat, and I have a Cedar box, lined with tin, that is buried in the ground. It holds all that I need it to. It is topped with a Cedar covered piece of tin and then covered with 8" thick moss. It stays at 38 to 44 degrees in the summer and 28 - 30 in the winter. Anything I don't want to freeze I bring inside and it keeps nicely!

I got the idea when I visited Dick Proenneke in 1995.  :Smile:

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## Rick

ND - Do you use a regular pressure canner to can with? Do you use it on a wood stove?

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## wildWoman

Wow, cutting all the wood by hand - that is a LOT of HARD work!! You're my hero  :Smile:  
I can do without a lot of things but I wouldn't want to do firewood without the chainsaw!

You're lucky to live that remote *sigh* we're a mere 40km from the next road. Lots cheaper when you have to fly but there's the odd bit of traffic too.

How far to your closest neighbour?

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## Survival Guy 10

he probly dosent have neighboors for about 100 miles

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## wildWoman

> he probly dosent have neighboors for about 100 miles


The funny thing is that some of the remote properties used to be huge pieces of land that were subdivided over time. Or a number of acreages were sold by the government, all in the same area.
So some people live way out in the boonies but have a next-door neighbour, if only in the summer. Which can be a blessing too.

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## Nativedude

> Survival Guy 10 wrote: *"he probly dosent have neighboors for about 100 miles"*


I have no neighbors (that I know of nor have ever seen) for about 160 miles. There is an old trappers cabin that I do stay in on my portages to and from town. It is just a little more then 1/2 way to town. I generally canoe to the cabin and than have my buddy pick me up with his plane there.

If I have a lot of supplies he flies me to the cabin, we drop off the supplies, and then he drops me back a the trappers cabin to retrieve my canoe. If it is early enough I head back and bivouac along the way, for the night and then continue on the next day. If not, I stay in the cabin over night and head back the next day.

From time-to-time there are hunters that stay in the trappers cabin during season.




> Rick wrote: *"ND - Do you use a regular pressure canner to can with? Do you use it on a wood stove?"*


Rick - I use the boiling/sterilizing method for canning. Boiling the lids, seals & jars, which creates a vacuum seal. And yes, I do it on my wood burning stove. My 12qt. cast dutch oven works great for boiling everything.

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## Rick

Gotcha! Thank you.

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## klkak

Nativedude, What drainage do you live on?

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## Gold

Im young and i dont have a family yet and spending my entire life like that does not sound to great by myself id like to have a wife and kids there with me to help me out personally i think the psychiological effect of being alone in the wilderness for months would be too great for me and your right id have to take a long time to work my way up to living in solitude 
U ROCK ND

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## crashdive123

Hey there Gold.  How about prospecting your way on over to the Introduction Section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14

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## Mtnman Mike

That is interesting and nice to hear about some living their dream.  But Alaska  surely is not for everyone.    People should do much planning, learning and preparing before just going into the wild.   The book and/or movie "Into the Wild"  is good to show what Not to do about going into the wilds of Alaska and trying to survive.   

It has taken me since 1987 to build a remote Wyoming mtn survival retreat and I might not ever be completely finished.   And there is Always something to do from cooking, cutting, splitting and stacking much firewood, gardening etc. etc.   

And people  do get to like solitude the more they live alone.   I never feel lonely in the wild but have felt lonely in the middle of a huge city.    The wilderness is the opposite of cities, in about every way possible.   Good or bad, I think the wilderness is much better than any city.

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## Nativedude

> Mtnman Mike wrote: *"That is interesting and nice to hear about some living their dream. But Alaska surely is not for everyone.    People should do much planning, learning and preparing before just going into the wild. The book and/or movie "Into the Wild" is good to show what Not to do about going into the wilds of Alaska and trying to survive.   
> 
> It has taken me since 1987 to build a remote Wyoming mtn survival retreat and I might not ever be completely finished. And there is Always something to do from cooking, cutting, splitting and stacking much firewood, gardening etc., etc.   
> 
> And people  do get to like solitude the more they live alone. I never feel lonely in the wild but have felt lonely in the middle of a huge city. The wilderness is the opposite of cities, in about every way possible. Good or bad, I think the wilderness is much better than any city."*


Well put Mike. Whenever I go back to the city I feel very alone. There is absolutely nothing to do (for me anyway). I feel like a lion in a cage at the zoo, I feel "on display". So many people, all milling about like ants in an ant farm. Seeming not to have a purpose. Without wood to cut, water to haul, crops to tend, meat & fish to cure and/or smoke, etc. and most of all no wild life (the four-legged kind) to see, it surely gives me a feeling of loneliness.

While 'Into the Wild' is a good reference to show people what NOT to do when going to live in the wilds of AK, 'Alone In The Wilderness' (Dick Proennecke's life in Alaska) surely is a great reference about what to do when going to live in the wilds of AK!

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## rwc1969

I've always wanted to be living in the wild, but, seeing "Alone in the wilderness" on PBS is what got me seriously thinking about making the jump, or at least trying to find out what it would take to make that jump.

Someone on another thread asked if they discuss these topics with friends and such.

Well, Everyone I know personally thinks it is an ignorant, lazy, reclusive, antisocial and/ or foolish notion. They talk about all the hard labor involved and all the mundane tasks just to store food or get water. They bring up all the bugs, cold, dampness, disease, and any other negative thing they can think of to try and point out why it's a bad idea. They fail to see the benefits a lifestyle like Dick's would pay. "Why would anyone want to do that?" they say!

I'm afraid to even bring up survival, emergency prep, wilderness skills, and to some extent even simple hunting, fishing and gathering topics, because they all look at me like I'm an insane, anti-social, head in the clouds recluse. It's not the case! Well, at least not to the extent they make it out to be.  :Smile:  

I just like this stuff and always have. If I weren't so oppressed by my schoolteachers, law enforcement, family and what I thought were friends growing up I would have got into this stuff much sooner, or never got out of it. Because during the first 5 years of my life we were very close to it. But, I was made to think a lifestyle like this was selfish, unrealistic and foolish. if only I would have listened to myself rather than take what they said as the gospel. 

I'm sure it's no easy task, but I would surely think the hard work and learning would be worth the effort, at least for someone like me. I'd much rather spend a day chopping wood than pushing a pen. I'd much rather spend my nights fishing, hunting or resting up for the next days work rather than getting drunk in a bar and risking a DUI. I'd much rather spend my leisure time listening and seeing nature rather than talking gossip, or reviewing the latest movie. I'd rather walk 5-10 miles to gather water or check traps each day than drive 30 thru rush hour traffic. I'd rather smell a wood fire and lamp oil rather than diesel fumes or fallout from the paint line.

Most people I know think I'm just lazy or trying to escape responsibility or the dues of this modern society, but that's not it at all. I just love being out in the wilderness. And I love doing things for myself. I love making things with my own two hands. I love fresh air, and silence. I like the idea of living close with nature in a more sustainable way than we as a whole currently are.

I don't understand why people are so against this style of life. At least the people around me in my neck of the woods. I'm starting pretty late in the game, but hopefully I can get a chance to live this style of life.

I really want to hand it to all those that have and do. You've done something that I have spent my life dreaming of rather than just getting out and doing it.

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## Nativedude

People whom are against those of us that live a serene, life of solitude, are either jealous or lazy. . .or both!

I have many, many people (friends, family, clients, etc.) that tell me all the time, _"I am so envious of the lifestyle you live!"_

RWC, I look at people that 'love to live in the city', the way that you described your friends (although I wouldn't call them friend, I'd call them acquaintances) look at you when you talk about living the way many of us do on this forum. I say acquaintances because of the fact that they disregard and make disparaging remarks about your choice of lifestyle! 

I think that the inner (BIG) city dwellers are crazy for wanting to live in that environment! I haven't ever seen a car-jacking, mugging, rape, stabbing, etc., out here in the woods, nor in the towns I go to when picking up supplies. And, when I see a bear, or big cat, I know to avoid them, which prevents any trouble.

In the city you have no idea whom the predators are! JM2C  :Smile:

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## rwc1969

SJJ, my post wasn't made to offend other walks of life. It was to say that some people don't want that way of life. Others certainly do and that's fine. I just don't understand why some that want the "pushing a pen" way of life are so against those that don't and so quick to jump to conclusions when one expresses it. That was the point I was trying to make. 

If a guy or girl wants to spend their free time drinking alcohol, partying, shopping, dancing or even gossipping and spreading rumors that's fine too. If someone's idea of being at one with nature is becoming a parks and recreation officer or wildlife biologist, that's fine too, but it's not my idea. Those people can live however they want. I just don't like them trying to force me into their way of life and denying or putting down the way of life I enjoy. I don't try to force them into my ideal way of life and I don't put them down or demean them for their ideal way. I openly disagree with certain aspects of our society, and I disagree with the way certain people live, but I don't put others I personally know down for living the way they do. In other words, if I disagreed with abortion I would openly say so, but I would not attack someone or shun them for having had one. I would not try to force someone to keep a child they didn't want. 

My pushing a pen comparison meant "a white collar job" generically speaking. It was not meant to offend white collar folks, just to say office job in a different way. I could have easily said "redneck", "blue collar" or "cybergeek", but in the area I live the majority of people are quickly becoming associated with office setting type work rather than construction or factory work. I just had office work on my mind at the time of my post. I realize now that penpusher may be a derogatory term, just as is redneck, but it was not meant to be. I guess I should've just said white collar or something. Hell, I guess white collar is derogatory too. I honestly don't know. I've never been too much for PC'ness and don't keep up on what the latest words are we aren't supposed to say.  

You also brought up the exact thing I was trying to relate. Why do people automatically assume a person wants to disassociate themselves from society just because they want to live in the wilderness or with nature?

Realistically, I don't want to alienate myself from society, or go against it. I don't want to be a hermit. I don't want to live solely in the wilderness with no contact with society. There's no reason a person living in the wilderness couldn't write a book, have a farm of sorts, a job, etc. 

How does saying "I want to live in the wilderness" equate to "I don't value people who value family, spouses and making the world better for others"?

I'm not sure where you got this from. Maybe you are just reading into my posts too much.

I certainly never said wilderness living was the only good thing and urban/ rural living was evil. There is plenty of decadence in our modern society and there wasn't as much when the natives ruled this land. Do you think that I believe natives are/ were holy and pure? Well, I don't! Many were quite evil and their society had it's evil ways just as ours does.

It isn't a question of good vs. evil. It's a question of being allowed to live life the way you see fit and not being hassled or lessened for it.

As a kid I was somewhat antisocial and quite rebellious. This was more a product of the people I was associated with and my environmnet at the time than who I now am as a person. It was also because of people's assumptions who didn't agree with or understand my ideals or way of life. Moving up here to Michigan from Kentucky was a huge culture shock. We were relatively backwoods and moving to a small town up here was like moving to the east side of Detroit would be today. We had an outhouse, got our drinking water from a mountain spring, untreated and pure, I could walk the entire mountain, set traps, illegal traps, and pretty much do anything my Dad and mom, and neighbors allowed. There were no boundaries, no fences, no hidden agendas! Everyone got along fairly well. I rarely saw a cop, fireman or ambulance till I moved up here. Our TV got 3 extremely fuzzy channels and we rarely watched it.

People up here didn't know what to think of me. They thought I was a crazy inbred hillbilly who cared nothing of family, laws or society. But, that was just an assumption on their part and not the reality. In KY if someone gave you ****, you gave them **** back. Up here people dealt with things more inconspicuously and in a more behind the back kind of way. Down in KY it was dealt with right there on the spot and law enforcement and such were down with it. In KY folks would wave at you even if they didn't know you. Up here if you waved at someone you didn't know they'd flip you the bird and say "WTF are you waving at you stupid hillbilly?". In KY people were much more patriotic and free than they are up here. Patriotism and freedom weren't neat catch phrases, but a way of life that goes back a long way. I'm sure it's changed down there since.

People weren't nearly as judgemnetal back then in KY, and they didn't go reading into every little thing you said. Everyone basically minded their own business and let others live however they felt like living as long as it didn't interfere with the way they were living thier lives. Were they pure innocent and good? Hell no! Many of em gossipped to high heaven, but they didn't talk down to ya and they always welcomed you.

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## rwc1969

Native dude, I no longer let others tell me how to live my life or drag me down with their negativity, and if they don't want to hear it I don't tell it. I've adapted the don't ask/ don't tell policy. My ideals of wilderness living as a punk kid were outlandish and far from reality. I'm doing what I can to learn about and practice primitive living in a modern neolithic sort of way. I'm researching differnet areas of the country as to what would be best suited to the hunter, gatherer, farmer lifestyle. I realize now that Making money in some  fashion is going to be necessary and am trying to come up with ideas for that as well. whether it means sellin goods at Farmer's markets, trade shows, pt job, or whatever.

Learning the skills to live a modern neolithic way of life is not that difficult. having someone to teach you in real life is great, no doubt, and there's how-to's for everything these days. All you have to do is learn and practice. Not to say it's easy, but, The difficult part, for me anyway, is finding a way and place to do that and still be functional in society. Whether that mean paying taxes, having money aside for medical expenses, tech stuff, raising or keeping in touch with family, or what have you.

My plan is not to run off into the wild and die, but to learn the skills required, ways to create revenue, and the environment/ habitat that suits my ideal of primitive living and find a way to get to that place. 

Like I said earlier in this thread, having a girl, or a small group, who is like minded would be awesome. Because managing the daily, short and long term needs and wants would be so much easier and far less lonely. I think it would be cool to raise a family living modern primitive.

A modern neolithic society!

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## Rick

> I say acquaintances because of the fact that they disregard and make disparaging remarks about your choice of lifestyle! .... I think that the inner (BIG) city dwellers are crazy for wanting to live in that environment! I haven't ever seen a car-jacking, mugging, rape, stabbing, etc., out here in the woods, nor in the towns I go to when picking up supplies. And, when I see a bear, or big cat, I know to avoid them, which prevents any trouble.


Wait a minute. Didn't you just do the same thing?  :Smash: 

I haven't seen anyone get mauled by a bear or a mountain lion here in town. And when I see someone that looks suspicious, I know to avoid them, which prevents any trouble.  :Innocent:

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## neondog

> when I see someone that looks suspicious, I know to avoid them, which prevents any trouble.


A large percentage of the deadliest animals in the big cities look completely domesticated. I've never mistaken a buffalo for a Holstein.

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## Mtnman Mike

> People whom are against those of us that live a serene, life of solitude, are either jealous or lazy. . .or both!
> 
> I have many, many people (friends, family, clients, etc.) that tell me all the time, _"I am so envious of the lifestyle you live!"_
> 
> I think that the inner (BIG) city dwellers are crazy for wanting to live in that environment! 
> 
> In the city you have no idea whom the predators are! JM2C


I also have had many say they are envious of my mtn retreat and lifestyle.    IF they actually would try it for a week or more I doubt they would be as envious.   
Most of them are on the internet, who have seen my pic threads in a few different forums.  

Almost everything is physically difficult, or many would say challenging.   From carrying almost everything uphill to  filtering water everyday to living without modern conveniences.    But I love it up there and hope to be able to live up on my mtn retreat permanently someday soon.  If I can get enough supplies and mainly If I can be able to pay the no good property taxes, which are "only" $208 a year but if one does not make very much money then that can be quite a bit and take away from getting other supplies.     But I suppose I must look at property taxes as rent or protection money from the gov't being able to take my land that I worked hard to pay off.

Also I try not to criticize those who live in stinkin, noisy, money sucking, overcrowded, polluted, crime and disease filled cities so hope they will not criticize some of us who live in quiet, pure, opposite of cities in about every way paradise like areas.  

I live in a city right now but it seems like hibernating until the summer and fall when I can live my Real life and lifestyle.    I feel like just another worker ant in the stinkin city, even though it is a fairly small city - Greeley, CO,  but on my remote mtn place I feel like the King of my mountain!     Hope everyone else can also find their niche or what they want and need before it is too late.

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## Beo

Nativedude,
Great post, loved it bro very nice and straight to the point, in fact most of this thread is pretty good. Personally I welcome all the different views but there is almost never a need to offend, yeah I said almost.
Beo,

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## Nativedude

Beo,

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just making a point from the other side of the coin.

I have nothing against those whom choose to live the city life, I just don't consider that lifestyle. . ."much of a life"!  :Innocent:  LOL

Over the last 30+ years I've been teaching primitive living & survival skills, I've been asked, repeatedly, _"how can you live this way every day?"_ I, immediately respond _'how can you live the way you live everyday?'_ Always, I get puzzled, quizzical looks from my questioners, and after a few moments of ponderous thought, they respond: _"I never thought of it that way!"_

I have never been afraid in the wilderness. I have spent months-on-end hiking and trekking throughout the various backcountry wilderness, like Yosemite, Yellowstone, Donner's Pass, The Black Hills & Badlands, Death Valley, Mt. Hood, Denali, Arches Nat'l. Park, and many others, living and practicing my primitive skills

When going to a town, I prefer to go to towns where you can get to know people and establish lasting relationships with merchants, restaurateurs, grocers, etc. To this day, I can go back to those different areas and they still know me. That is a really good feeling!  :Smile:

----------


## Ted

Great thread Dude, your livin' it! I know the opposition you must have had.
Just like the kid on "A Christmas Story", "You'll put your eye out", everyone probly told you, "YOU'LL DIE!"  Thanks for proving them wrong!
Best to you Bro...Later, Ted

----------


## Nativedude

> Ted wrote: *"Great thread Dude, your livin' it! I know the opposition you must have had.
> 
> Just like the kid on "A Christmas Story", "You'll put your eye out", everyone probly told you, "YOU'LL DIE!"  Thanks for proving them wrong!
> Best to you Bro...Later, Ted"*


Yes Ted, there was much opposition, and not just from family! I got it from every angle.

Living remotely is no different than living in the city. There are "routines", just like there are in the city.

You get up every day, you go to work (my work: cutting wood, hauling water, etc.) (city folk work: fighting traffic during commute to work, sit @ desk or listen to boss yap  :canadian:   :canadian:   :canadian:  at you all day, fight traffic on way home, etc.)

A) My life. . . .serene
B) City folk life. . . .pollution, noise, stress, etc.

You choose? My choice "A"!!!

----------


## Mtnman Mike

> *Living remotely is no different than living in the city.* There are "routines", just like there are in the city.
> 
> You get up every day, you go to work (my work: cutting wood, hauling water, etc.) (city folk work: fighting traffic during commute to work, sit @ desk or listen to boss yap    at you all day, fight traffic on way home, etc.)
> 
> A) My life. . . .serene
> B) City folk life. . . .pollution, noise, stress, etc.
> 
> You choose? My choice "A"!!!


I chose A - the wilderness in remote southern Wyoming one mile from the Divide as my retreat in 1987, as a perfect escape and hopefully soon to be permanent Lifestyle.

Some say I have the best of both worlds city and wilderness by living - I say existing - in the stinkin city from mid Nov. to June then on my mtn retreat the rest of the time.

I will have the best world whenever I will be able to move permanently up there.  As seen on my homepage.

I just had to highlight the sentence:  "Living remotely is no different than living in the city." for there might be some who might take that literally and think that there really is no difference. 
I understand what you are saying Nativedude.   
But to make it perfectly clear to any city people,  living remotely in a wilderness is the Opposite of cities.    As I have posted many times all over the net }  Wilderness is the Opposite of cities in everyway.   Cities = polluted, noisy, disease and crime filled, stressful, expensive etc.   Wilderness the opposite of that.    :Thumbup1:

----------


## Rick

I'll take "B" thanks. You left out all the advantages of living in the city. They far outweigh the negatives. I'll bet you have a long wait for the ambulance to arrive.  :Innocent:  .....just sayin'

----------


## Pal334

If I could, my choice would be :

A minus and a B minus

I can envison so many aspects of each that are appealing and also not appealing. That is human nature I guess, we are never totaly satisfied.

----------


## crashdive123

Yeah - I'd have to ask - why limit your choices to a and b?  City life? - some like it, but not for everybody.  Living in the woods 100 miles from civilization? - again, some like it, but its not for eveybody.  As has been said, there are aspects of both that are appealing.  I'd hazard a guess that the majority of members here live in neither of the two extremes, but rather someplace in between.

----------


## Nativedude

> Mtnman Mike wrote: *". . .I just had to highlight the sentence:  "Living remotely is no different than living in the city." for there might be some who might take that literally and think that there really is no difference. 
> I understand what you are saying Nativedude.   
> But to make it perfectly clear to any city people,  living remotely in a wilderness is the Opposite of cities.    As I have posted many times all over the net }  Wilderness is the Opposite of cities in everyway.   Cities = polluted, noisy, disease and crime filled, stressful, expensive etc.   Wilderness the opposite of that."*


Yes, I see your point Mike.  :Thumbup1:  My comparison of the two was in the aspect of the fact that either way you live there are routines, work, chores, upkeep, etc. in both environments. But yes, they are completely polar opposites! You certainly must be prepared to live in the remote wilderness, especially if you're going to live more than 25-50 miles from the nearest town/city.

You ain't gonna hop in the truck and "just run" to the store! You have to be prepared and stocked up!!

And, you have to be mentally & physically prepared too! But it can be done.

----------


## rwc1969

after driving to the city today for school I can honestly say I'm in the "doesn't want to live in the city" crowd.

Fought traffic the whole way, and if it weren't for idiots that try to do 80 when traffic is moving at 15 that wouldn't be a huge issue.

Get to the parking structure and OMG, the spiral of death, and that's before you get out of the vehicle and have to walk on foot thru the dimly lit concrete jungle gym dodging cars all the way to the stairwell.

Walk into the bathroom once inside the school and there's graffitti all over the stalls.  :Frown: 

Some guy asks me if I got a blunt to spare. Wonder what he wanted that for?

Get into class and the flourescent lights and dust from the ventilation system got my eyes all bugged out and I was sneezing. Listening to the teacher talk about relational database models and SQLServer stuff, which was intersting to me, I was constantly distracted by all the people around me surfing the net and texting on their Blackberries and Iphones. I felt kinda isolated as I haven't owned even a cell phone in nearly 15 years. We have to design a database and all i can think about is how I can incorporate that into wilderness skills, mushrooms or the like. A wild plant database where you can plug in the time of year and location and it gives you a "what's in season" output. LOL! I think something along those lines would be neat.

Anyway, coming home it was smooth sailing with a clear sky. Between the overpasses and thru all the streetlights the stars had vanished, but I could at least still make out the moon. Looked like it could hold water. Got out of the car to come in and the smell of the air reminded me of ice fishing, cool, clean and crisp. Think I might head out in the morning and try for some bluegills.

----------


## Nativedude

> rwc1969 wrote: *"after driving to the city today for school I can honestly say I'm in the "doesn't want to live in the city" crowd.
> 
> Fought traffic the whole way, and if it weren't for idiots that try to do 80 when traffic is moving at 15 that wouldn't be a huge issue.
> 
> Get to the parking structure and OMG, the spiral of death, and that's before you get out of the vehicle and have to walk on foot thru the dimly lit concrete jungle gym dodging cars all the way to the stairwell.
> 
> Walk into the bathroom once inside the school and there's graffitti all over the stalls. 
> 
> Some guy asks me if I got a blunt to spare. Wonder what he wanted that for?
> ...


RWC, sounds like Detroit and WSU?!

----------


## Mtnman Mike

I just also want to say that I hope most, even 99% of people stay in cities and away from the wilderness.     Although there are too many who have built fancy cabins all over the Rocky Mountains, which is the area of my experience.
I am sure that other states and even Canada also have former wild areas that are now overdeveloped.

The more people who move to wild areas, the less wild it is.

Also cities are good especially for those with money and insurance etc. etc.    For instance an ambulance would do me no good for I could not afford the terrible expense.   
I was injured once on my mtn land and drove myself to the nearest doctor 30 miles away in Saratoga, WY.     Long story which ended well and it cost me no more than fifty bucks.     
Which is the most I can afford...      

Some of us would be considered no better than poverty stricken homeless in cities but in the wilderness and especially on my remote mtn place I am the King of the mountain...   nuff said.

----------


## your_comforting_company

> Long story which ended well and it cost me no more than fifty bucks.     
> Which is the most I can afford...      
> 
> Some of us would be considered no better than poverty stricken homeless in cities but in the wilderness and especially on my remote mtn place I am the King of the mountain...   nuff said.


If I needed medical attention right now, I couldn't afford it either. If I lived in the big city, I'd be considered dirt poor and would probably be homeless on account of all the daily expenses.. taxi's , parking, lunch, rent, etc.
At least down here in what's left of rural America, I can grow my own food, house is paid for, and daily expenses are almost nil.

----------


## crashdive123

Anybody that walks into a hospital emergency room right now is treated, even if they have no means to pay for it.

----------


## Rick

This has sort of turned into an "us" and "them" thread. I'm not sure why. Let's face it, there are folks that simply can not live in the wilderness. They have neither the skills nor the physical ability to do so. Likewise, there are folks that can not live in an urban environment. Like their city cousins lost in the wilderness, they don't have the skills. You choose to live where you are the most comfortable and utilizing the best set of skills you have. For those that have figured out where that is, they will probably be the happiest. It's all good.

----------


## David1_s

Nativedude...my hero  :Cool2: 

It seems some people on here don't read all you said, based on there questions. I would question there ability to do what your doing.

 Going back to the basics such as you have is not for every one. It also goes back to "strong survive and weak die".  If a person gets sick easy,  I wouldn't recommend this. Our modern-day medicine allows people to live normal lives, who would have not been able to live normal lives due to illness, or weak immune systems, allergies, and other things that incompasitated or killed people 200+ years ago when the settlers first came to America.


Personally, my teeth are my greatest concern.  I havn't been sick in over 5 years, but have had a moler, and wisdom tooth that needed attention. I didn't go to dentist, and was able to take care of the infection my self. But did use products from the drug store, and pain meds, I would not have access to in the wilderness.
 Back in Grizzly Adams day, people didn't have good teeth. Any ideas on how to overcome this issue?

----------


## David1_s

> Yeah - I'd have to ask - why limit your choices to a and b?  City life? - some like it, but not for everybody.  Living in the woods 100 miles from civilization? - again, some like it, but its not for eveybody.  As has been said, there are aspects of both that are appealing.  I'd hazard a guess that the majority of members here live in neither of the two extremes, but rather someplace in between.


Indeed...


 I live somewhere in between. When I first moved here it was cow pastures and chickens everywhere. 25 years later those cow pastures have been developed into neighborhoods. Drive 5 miles one direction its all country, and 5 miles the other direction your in the city. Sux, because the city continues to get closer and closer to me.

To address some things I have read............

  Country folk are just as criticle of city slickers, and visa-versa.  I grew up in the country, and am an outdoorsman all my life. I can shoot the **Hat** off a nat at 100 yards, skin a buck, or trap a quail. But when I pull up to a country store in my japanese 403 hp 300 zx twin turbo, you should see the ugly looks I get from the old timers sitting on the porch.  I can pull up in my big rock crawling jeep the next week, and the same guys giving me ugly looks will smile, and greet me as one of there own.

 So it happens on both sides of the fence.  Human beings as a whole(some exceptions ofcorse) shun those that don't look, dress, and act like they do, and share the same ideas. For some reason we tend to dislike those who think differently then we do. right/wrong, or what ever, we don't like those who are different, and at the very least, we avoid those who are different. Its just in our nature for some reason.

----------


## klkak

I live a little over 20 miles north of Anchorage Alaska, and work year round in the bush.  I enjoy the best of both worlds.  Anyone who feels or says that one is better then the other is narrow minded and probably a poser.  I love being in the Alaska bush but I also like coming home and going to some of the connivances that the city has to offer, like Boondocks sporting goods and Shines Sushi restaurant in Eagle River Alaska, as well as Great Northern Guns and Golden Corral in Anchorage Alaska.

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## Rick

Sushi.....Blech....If God wanted me to eat raw fish he wouldn't have invented the skillet!

----------


## Batch

> Sushi.....Blech....If God wanted me to eat raw fish he wouldn't have invented the skillet!


Yeah, if god hadn't wanted us to eat sushi he wouldn't have made Wasabi! :Drool:

----------


## LowKey

Rick makes a good point. None of this has to be either or. 
I wish more people would stay in the cities actually.

For RWC, it sounds like you and I are in the same kind of predicament. A little late in life to be fixing the things we should have done while young. Instead I've opted for, at the moment, an acre of land a little bit beyond the 'suburbs' and a rental agreement with family that allows me to do a bunch of gardening and get some plants established that can be moved when I find my own place in a year or two (blueberries, cranberries, apples, pears). They look at me funny when I bring home cases of food instead of cans, when I brought home a canner last fall and then went out to buy cases of produce to practice on (garden will be big enough this year), packing stuff away in a freezer (you're only one guy, who's gonna eat all that?). You just tell them to get over it and do what you want. They may even admit later that your stuff tastes better than theirs. LOL.

You can wish for a group setting but once you bring the dynamics of a group into long-term wilderness living there are bound to be problems. Humans cannot seem to live together without somehow causing each other grief. You might not think it will happen at first but bet on it. Quite frankly, that is the part I'd like to get away from.

----------


## klkak

> It took me 8 years of planning and progressive remote living before taking the plunge. Now I live 240 miles from the nearest town and only go into town twice a year for supplies, and once every other year to visit family for the holidays.


Generally speaking, where would 240 miles from the nearest town be?

Edit:  Now this is the second time I've asked you what part of Alaska you live in.  I'm not asking for a GPS coordinate just a general area ie. The Brooks range, the Alaska range, the Koyakuk, etc.

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## klkak

I'm beginning to think you have no clue where you live.




> I stored my gear in a storage unit in the nearest town (100 miles away.)





> Come on up Mitch. . .I'll show ya around my digs!!  I'm 110 miles from the nearest town!





> I have no neighbors (that I know of nor have ever seen) for about 160 miles.





> Now I live 240 miles from the nearest town





> First, let me say thank you Wildwoman. There are no roads within 240 miles.

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## Sourdough

Note to self: Keep stories straight when communicating with Klkak.

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## Rick

Or at least be pretty good at estimating distance.

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## klkak

> Or at least be pretty good at estimating distance.


I guess you have to take into consideration the type of GPS he is using.




> My GPS. . .the sun. I've never heard it say _"recalculating - recalculating"!!_

----------


## rwc1969

> ... there are folks that simply can not live in the wilderness. They have neither the skills nor the physical ability to do so. Likewise, there are folks that can not live in an urban environment. Like their city cousins lost in the wilderness, they don't have the skills. You choose to live where you are the most comfortable and utilizing the best set of skills you have. For those that have figured out where that is, they will probably be the happiest. It's all good.


AFTER THINKING ABOUT I THINK IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SKILLS OR LACK THERE OF. FOR ME IT'S JUST A PERSONAL PREFERENCE. And I would choose to be a lil less happy if it meant others could be a lil more happy.

I would prefer to live in the wild away from the corrupt and spoiled cities. Not because it would make me happy, but because I would feel better about myself knowing I'm contributing less to a bad way of life. I wouldn't even need to live in the wild, just away from all the hussle and bussle. I'm happy having three or four major hospitals within a half hour drive, and I like being able to walk to the store, and having a gas station, Walfart and Mc'ds every 6 miles. I fit in just fine in this modern society and I have the skillset required, social and otherwise, to do just about any job or career path I set my mind to. But there's a price to pay for those conveniences and those careers and jobs. That price is getting too high. 

I look at the freeways and from near outer space it must appear like a bunch of ants going and coming and coming and going, day in day out never changing. Always rushing toward that hole in the ground that we will alll one day fill. Run rabbit run... I would rather not live my life as a parasite.

every day we get better at living and find more and more ways to keep from dying. That is survival at it's most basic, but we've become to proficient at it. What happens when we cure all disease and everyone lives for 120 years. Where are all the people gonna go? what are we gonna eat? Each other? We make farming more efficient but take away land for housing and spoil the rest with toxic wate from factories, landfills and roadways. We're already extremely overpopulated. Are we going to decide who lives and who dies based on genetic quality or what? We'll have to do something to control the population and it won't be pretty whatever it is. I picture any number of sci fi futuristic societal horrow show scenarios here. Take your pic.

Now that we've excelled at survival we need to start considering how to maintain that excellence long term. are we gonna live on floating cities on the oceans or on the moon? LOL! We probably will, but that won't fix the problem long term. Are we gonna quit reproducing or limit it? We haven't yet!

It's not much different in a wilderness or rural setting, just less ants making trails thru the dirt, less consumtion and congestion. It's a much slower winding path to the inevitable.

That's what I'm looking for. less hussle and bussle, more laid back way of life. and leaving less of a grungy, greasy chemical toxic filled footprint where I travel. I chose not to have kids. I would have been happy to have them, but i'm happier knowing i didn't contribute the ever growing problem of overpopulation.

People I know wanna have big trucks cuz they think their safer, cooler, can haul more or go thru snow better, etc. But they hog gas and pollute the hell outta the environment. Most people I know that have trucks haul less and go off road less than me in my lil subcompact. My little car handles better than any truck in the snow, ice and rain too. I love trucks and vans, they make me happy, but I can't see owning or using one on a regualr basis when all I'm doing is goin for groceries or into the woods to shoot some squirrels. If I need a truck I'll rent one or dust off the old Chevy van if I need to haul something big. I can see if you need it for work, or live in an area that requires it, deep snow, rutted two tracks, etc., but for the average joe it's just a huge waste for a lil ego boost.

I hate to say it, but people in general are just plain ignorant and that's what ticks me off the most about modern society. People have set thoughts in their head about what they think is cool or right and they're unwilling to change because of foolish pride and ignorance. There's a difference between pride and foolish pride. That's too bad and it's a good part of the reason this country's falling apart. Other countries don't have these issues and they are walking all over us. It saddens me to say that, but, I'm not gonna ignore that reality.

people make stupid jokes and harp on the ones that are trying to make things better because they feel guilty knowing they are essentially "evil" and the things they do out of foolish pride and selfishness are gonna make life for future gens more difficult. They know that those other people making better are better than them. I guess that's there way of ignoring the reality of the situation and calming their guilty conscious. I don't know!

People can argue that modern society has it's benefits and it does, but the negatives far outweigh the good if you look at life in the long term and in an unselfish, un-ignorant way.

You can't drink the water from the creeks and lakes, you can't even drink it from the wells or springs in many places. You have to be extremely careful where you pick vegetables from or grow them because the soil is contaminated with heavy metals and toxic chemicals that last for centuries. You can't eat fish from many rivers and lakes. There are areas in our state where you can't even safely eat the animals. OMG! Wake up people!

To me wilderness living isn't about be happy as much as it is about being right.

It's not getting better, contrary to some weird belief that we are starting to pollute less. It's not true. Don't buy into all that propaganda. It's just being covered up better and we are becoming more ignorant to the reality. We are learning to accept it by ignoring it.

when I went to mexico City, Mexico the birds would fall dead out of the trees from CO poisoning and they would have smog curfews where you weren't allowed out for fear of suffocation. The rivers had dead fish and garbage floating in them. You could smell them from a mile away. They were milky white from all the oil and who knows what that was dumped in them. The sky was brown with toxic death and after a few minutes of departing the plane I could feel it rushing through my veins. You could clearly see the greenhouse effect. Far up over the plateaus and hills the sky was blue, but down below it was brown toxic death. my eyes would start to water when we got close to the river from the burning stench that it produced. I'm now starting to see that same brown haze and dead birds and fish here and it saddens me greatly. 

We live in a big fishbowl people. When you dump a toxin into the air, water or ground it stays there. It doesn't just vanish into outer space as we'd like to think. Down the road somebody breathes, drinks or eats those same toxins you just ignorantly dumped. You probably dumped em without even realizing it.  :Smash: 

I don't sit and dwell on it, but I do take notice of it, acknowledge it and try to drill it into people's seemingly thick skulls that in order for the world to continue we need to change this consumptive way of life, cut the population increase and get back to a more basic and slower way of living. That doesn't mean we have to go off 240 miles from town and live in a wigwam, but we do need to cut back on the electric, gas and other things that destroy the very world we live in. We need to accept a lil unhappiness so future gens can have a chance to be a lil happy. 

After realizing what it takes to live in the wilderness or on a farm I don't know if I would be happy with that lifestyle, but I would be happy knowing I'm making things better, or at least slowing down the process of making them worse.

Our world has come very close to mass extinction several times in recent years and people don't even take notice, or they make jokes about it. They don't even care because they're too busy running back and forth up and down the ant trail to take the time to consider the facts and implications. Maybe people just can't live with themselves knowing they're destroying the world around them so they ignore it. I don't know, but something needs to change and it will, by force or reason one. We sit and wait for scientists to make one false move so we can ridicule them and put to waste all their years of work which our tax dollars supported.

I may not be living the lifestyle, but I am working toward that end even if it takes me till I'm 60 to do it. I'd much rather die alone and cold in the woods or on a small farm smelling pig **** than in a sterile hospital bed with family and friends mourning over my withered body.

----------


## Sarge47

> I'm beginning to think you have no clue where you live.


Whereever it is, he has internet access & electricity!  Not bad where there are no roads, huh?   :Sneaky2:   :Innocent:   :Cool2:

----------


## BENESSE

> Whereever it is, he has internet access & electricity!  Not bad where there are no roads, huh?


Why does it matter so much?
If ND wanted to be more specific (can't _imagine_ why) he would have done it already.

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> I'm beginning to think you have no clue where you live.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Nativedude  
> I stored my gear in a storage unit in the nearest town (100 miles away.) 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Nativedude  
> Come on up Mitch. . .I'll show ya around my digs!!  I'm 110 miles from the nearest town!  
> 
> Quote:
> ...



 Wellll duuuuhhhh.....he lives in a "mobile" home! LOL :Tongue Smilie: 
(I crack myself up!) LOL

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

...Oh, and relax rwc....the herd is gonna get thinned in December of 2012. :Innocent:

----------


## Sourdough

> Why does it matter so much?
> If ND wanted to be more specific (can't _imagine_ why) he would have done it already.




Well, would you feel conned, snookered, lied to, de-fraud-ed, if it turned out He had Never set foot in Alaska, if he made the whole thing up, all of it, part of it, any of it.......? It really does not matter, He has not given bad advise, or even harmful advise. I think he has been very helpful, and he has empowered people to explore their dreams. Empowering others to look at what is possible, is a rare and valuable ability. I don't know where he is, Yes I am curious where, but is really does not matter. OK, I lied I really want to know roughly, not exactly.

----------


## rebel

> OK, I lied I really want to know roughly, not exactly.



As they say in Dixie, "you're a mess" (funny).

----------


## Sourdough

> As they say in Dixie, "you're a mess" (funny).




Just where is Dixie.....? and is that where they make those cute little cups.... :Innocent:

----------


## BENESSE

> OK, I lied I really want to know roughly, not exactly.


I understand.
But one can hardly blame him for wanting to keep his place to himself--the pics he posted were truly spiritual so why risk ANYone showing up or messing with it in any way?
Some of you guys know each other, have met and keep in touch. Just because y'all seem OK doesn't mean the vast number of others lurking around are.
How would taking a chance be worth it to him, honestly?

----------


## rebel

Oh, I wish...look away

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> Just where is Dixie.....? ...


 It's in America. :Tongue Smilie:

----------


## Rick

@RWC - Somebody needs a hug. 

@Benesse - I built my house by hand and floated it up the Chiulitna River. I then disassembled it and carried it one piece at a time up to the top of the ridge where it now sits. 

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

I built it on a turntable so it can always face the sun.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> @RWC - Somebody needs a hug. 
> 
> @Benesse - I built my house by hand and floated it up the Chiulitna River. I then disassembled it and carried it one piece at a time up to the top of the ridge where it now sits.
> I built it on a turntable so it can always face the sun.


 *WOW!!!* That's almost exactly how I'm building mine.
(Well...except I'm using the Titsuwanasee River.) :Innocent:

----------


## BENESSE

Rick, I always knew there was a certain _je ne sais quoi_ about you. :Smile:

----------


## Rick

@ 2D - That river has always been my first choice. I'm working on a plan to divert it. But don't tell my wife. 

@ Benesse - _je ne sais quoi_ lives on the next ridge. We call him Frenchy.

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## BENESSE

> See, if I had a house like that I'd be perfectly happy with modern society and all the overpopulated ignorant people could work for me raking lawns or cleaning out my vast array of garages. LOL!


So now we're getting to the bottom of the funk.
Why didn't you just cut to the chase and said you wished you won the lottery? :Smile: 

BTW...me too!

----------


## Rick

Check your tickets. There's an unclaimed Indiana lottery ticket worth 2.5 million that expires this Friday. I want to be standing there Saturday when he pulls it out of his pocket....(snicker).

----------


## rebel

> Check your tickets. There's an unclaimed Indiana lottery ticket worth 2.5 million that expires this Friday. I want to be standing there Saturday when he pulls it out of his pocket....(snicker).


..could be one of those unanswered prayers.   Instead of being here you could be at some pole dancing free-for-all.

----------


## Rick

Okay, okay. Back on topic. :whip: 

Just how big is a bear den anyway?

----------


## BENESSE

> Okay, okay. Back on topic.
> 
> Just how big is a bear den anyway?


As big as the bear?

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## Rick

I'll take that as an "I don't know". Next!

----------


## BENESSE

> I'll take that as an "I don't know". Next!


Seriously though, isn't it relative?
Is it a single bear or one with cubs, in-laws, etc?

----------


## Rick

.....Next!

----------


## rebel

Dang B. 




BOOM!

----------


## klkak

> I understand.
> But one can hardly blame him for wanting to keep his place to himself--the pics he posted were truly spiritual so why risk ANYone showing up or messing with it in any way?
> Some of you guys know each other, have met and keep in touch. Just because y'all seem OK doesn't mean the vast number of others lurking around are.
> How would taking a chance be worth it to him, honestly?


My reasons are for calling him out are simple.

He is very inconsistent.  If you are going to tell a story then make sure you tell it the same way every time so folks don't catch you in a lie.

After reading his last 500 post I've come to believe that he is a *fraud* that has *a very vivid imagination* as to where he lives.

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## rebel

> My reasons are for calling him out are simple.
> 
> He is very inconsistent.  If you are going to tell a story then make sure you tell it the same way every time so folks don't catch you in a lie.
> 
> After reading his last 500 post I've come to believe that he is a *fraud* that has *a very vivid imagination* as to where he lives.


It a'int worth nuthin but,  I gotta agree.

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## crashdive123

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Oh - you said bear......never mind.

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## rebel

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
> 
> Oh - you said bear......never mind.


That's sick!

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## Durtyoleman

Bet they won't do that on the other side of the glass in that ice hockey rink....

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## hunter63

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
> 
> Oh - you said bear......never mind.


Hope that ain't no ice rink.

As far as ND goes, all I can say is my tepee didn't have a moon roof.

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## rebel

> Bet they won't do that on the other side of the glass in that ice hockey rink....


I'm surprised in the day light.

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## hunter63

LOL, guess we were posting at the same time, as great....sick minds think alike, LOL

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## Rick

That is sick. Who's gonna clean that floor!?

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## crashdive123

Slug trail?

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## Rick

Oh, man. I just threw up a little.

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## klkak

Ok now.  There are some folks who should not be allowed to post any more pictures.

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## crashdive123

> Ok now.  There are some folks who should not be allowed to post any more pictures.


Yeah.  Hunter and Rebel......you heard Kevin - now go to your room.

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## klkak

_Shaking head in bewilderment as I turn and walk away_

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## Rick

And folks thought my thong picture was bad. This is just so....I don't have words for it.

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## crashdive123

You should see some of the other options I had to chose from.

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## klkak

No....please no!  we don't need that stuck in our minds.

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## Sarge47

Notice how often that pic is getting re-posted?  Just sayin'... :Innocent:

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## klkak

> Notice how often that pic is getting re-posted?  Just sayin'...


It's only because all these gutterminds can see a breast on one of the women in the group.

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## DOGMAN

> @RWC - Somebody needs a hug. 
> 
> @Benesse - I built my house by hand and floated it up the Chiulitna River. I then disassembled it and carried it one piece at a time up to the top of the ridge where it now sits. 
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
> 
> I built it on a turntable so it can always face the sun.


WHAT!  You told us in an earlier post that you trained chimp's via sign language to build your house for you, and then members of the 10th Mountain Division disassembled the structure and then air -dropped it for you to your property over looking the ChillKat river, 372km from the nearest village. Then it was reassembled by the locals who were the last known members of an obscure tribe of aboriginals that were part Eskimo and part Viking who had made you their king and #1 stud dog.
I think you may be stretching the truth a little!!!!

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## DOGMAN

> Hope that ain't no ice rink.
> 
> As far as ND goes, all I can say is my tepee didn't have a moon roof.




if you look at the photo real close, with a magnifying glass you can see native dude...he's the guy in the middle with the pony tail.

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## Rick

Uh....that was the other house. The...uh...first one.

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## hunter63

> Yeah.  Hunter and Rebel......you heard Kevin - now go to your room.


I'm already in my room, thats where most of my inside "stuff" is at.
'Sides, MOM, Crash started it,........ I didn't start it........not my fault!

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## klkak

Umm Hunter, I was noticing that you list your location as SE/SW Wisconsin.  Do you have a split personality or is something else going?  Jus' wondering.

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## hunter63

Easy one, not paranoid as to locations.

Southeast Wisconsin, city house, looking to dump it, but market went to heck, no, don't need to sell it, but two sets of taxes are a PITA.

As it turns out small mortgage/deduction still cheaper than storing my "stuff" some where else.

South west Wisconsin, "The Place" our cabin, land and toys....hopefully be retirement location soon.
Hoping to spend some winter time in NE Louisiana, as well, with DD and SIL, the new DGS.

WIFI a great thing, but still looking at reasonable Internet access from multiple locations.

Was wondering how ND was telling us all about the wilderness from 240 mile from any where?
That's still a mystery.

So, does that answer your question?

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## Stargazer

> It's only because all these gutterminds can see a breast on one of the women in the group.


Are you sure thats a woman? If so my beer goggles need to get thicker.

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## rwc1969

> My reasons are for calling him out are simple.
> 
> He is very inconsistent.  If you are going to tell a story then make sure you tell it the same way every time so folks don't catch you in a lie.
> 
> After reading his last 500 post I've come to believe that he is a *fraud* that has *a very vivid imagination* as to where he lives.


Hey, if you lived that far from roads everytime you walked or paddled it would seem like further and further away too.

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## rwc1969

> So now we're getting to the bottom of the funk.
> Why didn't you just cut to the chase and said you wished you won the lottery?
> 
> BTW...me too!


But, honestly if I did win the lottery I'd be living in a tin roofed shack in surrounded by a vast productive wilderness in a pleasant climate.

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## BENESSE

> See, if I had a house like that I'd be perfectly happy with modern society and all the overpopulated ignorant people could work for me raking lawns or cleaning out my vast array of garages. LOL!





> But, honestly if I did win the lottery I'd be living in a tin roofed shack in surrounded by a vast productive wilderness in a pleasant climate.


Aren't we fickle, now!
It's OK though, you never know how you'll really feel 'til it happens.
Just roll with whatever you're dealt, it'll sort itself out in the long run. :Smile:

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## klkak

> Easy one, not paranoid as to locations.
> 
> Southeast Wisconsin, city house, looking to dump it, but market went to heck, no, don't need to sell it, but two sets of taxes are a PITA.
> 
> As it turns out small mortgage/deduction still cheaper than storing my "stuff" some where else.
> 
> South west Wisconsin, "The Place" our cabin, land and toys....hopefully be retirement location soon.
> Hoping to spend some winter time in NE Louisiana, as well, with DD and SIL, the new DGS.
> 
> ...


I liked my idea better. :Innocent:

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## hunter63

> I liked my idea better.


LOL, And that was??????

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## klkak

> LOL, And that was??????


That maybe you had a split personality. :Innocent:

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## klkak

Come to think of it, I wonder if that is why "ND" can't make up his mind how far he live from the nearest town or road or whatever!

*"Multiple Personalities"*

Hmmmmm.....,

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## trax

I've been following this conversation for awhile now and then this morning there's this song by the Tragically Hip on my truck radio and they said:

_"I feel I stepped out of the wilderness
all squint eyed and confused
But even babies raised by wolves they know
exactly when they've been used_"

and it just seemed to fit.

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## klkak

LOL, It does sorta fit don't it?

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## hunter63

> That maybe you had a split personality.


Which one of us(huh? What?) were you speaking to, the city guy? or the country guy?
Buhahahaha

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## trax

Do what we do hunter, take a vote on it before you answer him.

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## klkak

Here's the big question Hunter.

*How far do you live from the nearest road and nearest town?*

I know it sounds like a trick question so take your time and think about it before you answer.  If you need to you can ask Mrs. Hunter to help you.

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## hunter63

Hummm, well lets see it about 60ft to the road,(which road?) both roads!
In town and 2 miles from one town, 3 miles to the other, but if you take the long faster way around it 5 miles (don't tell him that) why not?, (well, OK, cannon ready?) Oh yeah.

So like, ND isn't bitting? My turn? (which one?)(quite)
Some body, give t'all a whisle and a pith helmet?

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## klkak

You do that so well it just can't be an act, lol.

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## hunter63

I'll (we'll) never tell.

So what else you wanna know?
ND been pretty quite, don't ya think?

I thought he had some pretty good ideas.

Yo, Native Dude, y'all wanta come on back? These boys are picking on me(us).

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## crashdive123

Hunter - type with one hand - it helps.

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## klkak

Hunter I can only wonder how tough it is for you being old and having Alzheimer, split personality and Bi-polar disorder.  At least you don't live in an imaginary cabin in the Alaska wilderness.

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## hunter63

Well actually it's not too bad being all those things,(huh?) you can get away with a lot of stuff, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, nope, no imaginary cabin.......But the real one is paid for, how weird is that?
(poor old guy is really off the deep end now).

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## klkak

Wait, whats this......could it be......yet is must be.......I must tell the world my discovery......yet do I dare to believe that me of all people could have made such a discovery......yet it has to be.......who else would live in such a remote and hidden place.......It's NativeDude's Cabin in the Alaska wilderness.

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## welderguy

> Wait, whats this......could it be......yet is must be.......I must tell the world my discovery......yet do I dare to believe that me of all people could have made such a discovery......yet it has to be.......who else would live in such a remote and hidden place.......It's NativeDude's Cabin in the Alaska wilderness.


Oh man isnt that Sourdough's out house

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## klkak

Wow, it doesn't have a door does it?

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## LowKey

No door. Must be.

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## Camp10

The door might open in??  Hey Klkak can you check for the three different sized cedar boxes buried in the ground?  One is lined in burlap, one in tin and one in copper (maybe?) That should give it away.

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## klkak

> The door might open in??  Hey Klkak can you check for the three different sized cedar boxes buried in the ground?  One is lined in burlap, one in tin and one in copper (maybe?) That should give it away.


I can't see the ground in this picture.  There is to much vegetation growing in the way.  I took the picture last summer up near Talkeetna and I don't remember seeing any burried crates.

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## Mtnman Mike

I don't know the truth about anyone on the internet, except myself and what I post.

As it is said many times as I have seen posted by others in various groups >  "Pics or it didn't happen."

Which is one more reason I have posted many pics of my remote mtn survival retreat in southern Wyoming.    Possibly telling tooo much, even that it is near Battle pass, Wyoming.   But No one can get up there in the winter until mid June when the snow melts.   There is 7 feet of snow up there now as I can see on a website of the snow survey station  which is a half mile above my mtn place.

And from mid June to Nov. when there is mostly no snow on my mtn place, then I am up there and people do not want to trespass when I am up there.   :Cool2:     And one never knows when I am around there... 

And here is the link with many pics Proving what I have worked hard to build.    If I was a fake I would post fancier pics of a fancy cabin etc.   but here is  what I share and show and tell about what I truly have done >    http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=9812

And people can look at my homepage for even more pics and detailed info.    

Although here is one pic of the top of my bunker showing the concrete roof, stovepipe, dead tree on top for camo  etc.  >


Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.



Although I could say this is my  bunker also but no one would probably believe me  or that the guy in the pointy hat driving the horse cart is me either.   :Sneaky2:  >  


Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## klkak

That looks like Bilbow Bagins house.

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## Mtnman Mike

> That looks like Bilbo Bagins house.



I guess you mean this one and not my bunker?

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.



But to tell the truth, as I always try to do even on the net, is that yes it is Bag End - Bilbo and Frodo Baggins earth house.   From the movie "The Fellowship of the Ring"   which I think was one of the best movies ever made and Maybe someday I can make my own shire on my remote mountain retreat in southern Wyoming   :Thumbup1:

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## Winnie

Here you go MM!

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...t=hobbit+house

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## Mtnman Mike

> Here you go MM!
> 
> http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...t=hobbit+house


Thanks and I have seen that before but it is a little too fancy for me.    :Innocent: 

I built my underground cabin/bunker  for about $2,000 which was mostly the cost of concrete for I got the wood - dead trees free.   
BUT if I get more time and money I might do a hobbit house or two and invite some nearby hobbits, elves etc.   But bears and bigfeet = Sasquatch are not welcome   :Cool2:  :Innocent:

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## Kiltman51

Hey rwc! You hit the nail right on the head! Like you, I have always been more comfortable in the wild. Whether alone or with someone. I can't stand traffic, all the people in the way. There's just something about, working hard, and the reward of finishing the job. Especially if you like working with your hands! I live in the city, and anytime I've went to my friends grandfathers farm, I've worked my tail off, and enjoyed every minute of it. 

People, will always act like your strange, when you talk about something like moving to the wild, because it means change! A big change! They can't live without all the necessities that come with everyday life. Most of them, that complain about the hard work, have never worked a hard day in their life! Trust me I work with a lot of them, and all we do is screen people into federal buildings. 20 somethings that complain their feet hurt, after 2 hours of standing! I'm only 32, but can stand at work, 12 hours without my feet bothering me. If I sit too long, my back, and legs hurt. Funny! I love chopping wood, gathering fire wood, fishing, hunting, planting crops(just to see them grow, and know I did that)! I need to learn how to can and preserve. 

Don't feel like you waited too long! Maybe that's your retirement plan! Early, or regular. Doesn't matter, as long as you do! Remember, DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY!  :Smile:  And just think if the world ever hits the Crap Fan, all those people who thought you were crazy, will be SOL!

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## klkak

Bumping this up so's it's readily available if ND decides to come back!

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## welderguy

> Bumping this up so's it's readily available if ND decides to come back!


I noticed he responded to the bag-balm post.

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## klkak

I guess ND decided to avoid splaining himself.

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## welderguy

> I guess ND decided to avoid splaining himself.


Looks that way , Elvise has left the building.

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## hybrid

This is one of the most whacked out threads I've ever read. Ever.

Seriously, who lies about where they live? Get a life.

Pics with roads on my profile are my place...google earth somerset dam if you're really nosey.

Anyone that would lie, needs help, and if you think someone is lying, you should help... 

Sick stuff. Did not realise machismo had such extremes of pointlessness... considered building up yourself rather than tearing people down?

In closing, my distance from streetlights is bigger than yours :P 

Pointless... whats next... who has the biggest beard? Gun? knife? Dog?

Might be time to grow up, hey?

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## hybrid

wow, someone lied on the interwebs? get out the champagne.

saddest thread ever. seriously. how far can people push their "I have abigger beard/gun/knife" bull****.

That kind of mentality is what is helping lead to the tribulation of the human race, not our recovery  :Wink: 

If you have some balls, you know it. You don't have to drag anyone down to your petty little level.

my place is on my profile. google earth "somerset dam" if you're the nosey kind.

Complete and utter ego stroking... like being born out of the way and never choosing otherwise is some kind of evolutionary decision :P

I'm further from wash-****-ton than anyone, do I win a prize? Nah, thought not.

Time to grow up. Who has the biggest tonka toy kinda went out in 1970.

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## justin_baker

I plan on spending some time living in the wilderness. Weeks at a time, mabeye a month or two. If i have to bring all my own food and lots of technology at first, so be it, at least im out there  :Smile:  It will be gradual, but soon i will learn to go out with nothing.

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## rwc1969

That's what I do. Each time I go out I rely on one less thing. Certain things are hard to do without, but others are unnecessary, especilly when you're packing it in and out.

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## klkak

> wow, someone lied on the interwebs? get out the champagne.
> 
> saddest thread ever. seriously. how far can people push their "I have abigger beard/gun/knife" bull****.
> 
> That kind of mentality is what is helping lead to the tribulation of the human race, not our recovery 
> 
> If you have some balls, you know it. You don't have to drag anyone down to your petty little level.
> 
> my place is on my profile. google earth "somerset dam" if you're the nosey kind.
> ...


Who are you talking to,  Nativedude or the rest of us?

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## crashdive123

> Who are you talking to,  Nativedude or the rest of us?


Hybrid got all pissy and left a few weeks ago.

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## klkak

> Hybrid got all pissy and left a few weeks ago.


Thats to bad,  I was getting all geared up to go off on him. :Frown:

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## BENESSE

> Thats to bad,  I was getting all geared up to go off on him.


Well there's still the favorite whipping boy-Nativedude. :Smile:

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## klkak

> Well there's still the favorite whipping boy-Nativedude.


That would be great if he hadn't jumped ship!

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## klkak

> Hybrid got all pissy and left a few weeks ago.


Hmm,  Maybe it was Nativedude or his brothers uncles fatherinlaws cousins girlfriends dogs mothers bestfriend! :Sneaky2:  :clap:

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## BENESSE

> Hmm,  Maybe it was Nativedude or his brothers uncles fatherinlaws cousins girlfriends dogs mothers bestfriend!


Don't worry klkak, someone's bound to blow in
you can go off on. Fingers crossed.

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## 2dumb2kwit

Psssst...........how about Ken?  :Innocent:

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## BENESSE

> Psssst...........how about Ken?


How do you mean? :Sneaky2:

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Just a clue to spot these guys. Anyone in awe of nature has not spent enough time for it to be common place for them or they are trying to sell you something. It's nothing special when you've lived that way. When I went to Las Vegas it was like WOW! But I'm not used to that life and if I pretended to be suffisticated it would not be long before I'd be found out. I figured this guy out the first post I read.

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## Sourdough

There something about this thread that haunts me, yes....it breaks my heart, yet it seduces me with what it "Could have been". I often wonder if it helps or hurts the young wilderness dreamers. Every time I read it, I feel like I want to fix, edit-it. Mostly I am left with a deep feeling of sadness.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> How do you mean?


 Somebody for klkak to go off on. :Innocent:  LOL

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## BENESSE

> Somebody for klkak to go off on. LOL


Nah...just not the right kind of challenge for klkak. (just guessing here)
See, Nativedude was teetering up on a wilderness survival pedestal, (the orbit klkak occupies) from which, even the smallest misstep was bound to bring him crashing south.
Those are big moccasins to fill, don't you think?

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Nah...just not the right kind of challenge for klkak. (just guessing here)
> See, Nativedude was teetering up on a wilderness survival pedestal, (the orbit klkak occupies) from which, even the smallest misstep was bound to bring him crashing south.
> Those are big moccasins to fill, don't you think?


 Gifted boxers don't spar, all of the time. Sometimes, they just work out on the heavy bag. :Innocent:

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## BENESSE

> Gifted boxers don't spar, all of the time. *Sometimes, they just work out on the heavy bag*.


Not nearly as much fun--doesn't get your adrenaline up.

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## klkak

> Nah...just not the right kind of challenge for klkak. (just guessing here)
> See, Nativedude was teetering up on a wilderness survival pedestal, *(the orbit klkak occupies)* from which, even the smallest misstep was bound to bring him crashing south.
> Those are big moccasins to fill, don't you think?


I didn't know I orbited.  It that a good thing?

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## Rick

Generally it is a good thing. You just have to be careful of the space junk. It tends to go zipping by pretty fast and, more often than not, will smack you in the ankles. Funny how that happens. 

Did I mention I was born in the arctic? My mother was a polar bear and my father was a wolf. Did I mention that?

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## BENESSE

> Did I mention I was born in the arctic? My mother was a polar bear and my father was a wolf. Did I mention that?


No you didn't...we just put 2 & 2 together, then multiplied by 9 and divided by 4.

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## crashdive123

> I didn't know I orbited.  It that a good thing?


It all depends on where you are orbiting.  For instance, it may not be a good thing to orbit Uran....................never mind. :Innocent:

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## klkak

I reckon I just don't fly that high Crash.

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## finallyME

> No you didn't...we just put 2 & 2 together, then multiplied by 9 and divided by 4.


Now that is funny...I don't care who you are.  :clap:   :clap:   :clap:

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## finallyME

klkak, will it make you feel any better if I registered as a different name and pretended to live 250 miles from the nearest town in Alaska?

I just have to come up with a good name:  
Master of Survival
Survival Expert in Alaska
Survive and conquer
Native Inuit with high speed internet
Survival Engineer.....

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## Ken

> klkak, will it make you feel any better if I registered as a different name and pretended to live 250 miles from the nearest town in Alaska?


I don't know about klkak, but *I* would feel better if you kept the name you have now and really moved 250 miles from the nearest town in Alaska.   :Innocent:

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## finallyME

> I don't know about klkak, but *I* would feel better if you kept the name you have now and really moved 250 miles from the nearest town in Alaska.


Well, apparently I live 1350 miles from the nearest town in Alaska.  :Smash:

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## crashdive123

> klkak, will it make you feel any better if I registered as a different name and pretended to live 250 miles from the nearest town in Alaska?
> 
> I just have to come up with a good name:  
> Master of Survival
> Survival Expert in Alaska
> Survive and conquer
> Native Inuit with high speed internet
> Survival Engineer.....


How about 

12yearoldnosepickerfromdetroit

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## 2dumb2kwit

> It all depends on where you are orbiting.  For instance, it may not be a good thing to orbit Uran....................never mind.





> I reckon I just don't fly that high Crash.


 Did he just say that crash keeps his arse up on his shoulders??? :Innocent:  LOL

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## 2dumb2kwit

> How about 
> 
> 12yearoldnosepickerfromdetroit


 No, no, no.....then he'd confuse him with Ken. :Innocent:

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## klkak

You people have entirely to much time on your hands!

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## BENESSE

> You people have entirely to much time on your hands!


You're just saving yourself for Nativedude. :Sneaky2:

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## Rick

Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are. God bless them little pygmies down there in New Guinea.

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## LongHuntre

I am curious that since you are so far out how do you manage to have an Internet Connection? I am not trying to be a smart aleck just wonder how you do that with no electric or grid services. Thank You

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## Winnie

If you're talking to Nativedude, he was outed some time ago as somethingyearoldnosepickerfromdetroit. He lives about as close to Alaska as I do and has a faster broadband speed to boot.

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## 1stimestar

> I am curious that since you are so far out how do you manage to have an Internet Connection? I am not trying to be a smart aleck just wonder how you do that with no electric or grid services. Thank You


Just jumping in here to say that many Alaskans live off the grid.  They have generators and/or solar panels and a battery banks to run the computer and satalite internet.  

Alaskans, we might not have indoor toilets, but we WILL have our internet!

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Just jumping in here to say that many Alaskans live off the grid.  They have generators and/or solar panels and a battery banks to run the computer and satalite internet.  
> 
> Alaskans, we might not have indoor toilets, but we WILL have our internet!


.....or a kerosene lamp and bottle of whiskey.

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## 1stimestar

> .....or a kerosene lamp and bottle of whiskey.


Sounds like a party to me.

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## Rick

You guys are too funny. 

"Honey, can you move the kerosene lamp a little closer? I can't read this darn flat panel. The aspect and contrast ratios are fine it's just my darn eyes."

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## 1stimestar

> You guys are too funny. 
> 
> "Honey, can you move the kerosene lamp a little closer? I can't read this darn flat panel. The aspect and contrast ratios are fine it's just my darn eyes."


Lol I read with my head lamp.

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## Sourdough

> Lol I read with my head lamp.


Gives me tunnel vision...............Hehehehehe :Banana:  :Banana:  :Banana:

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## klkak

I can't live without my headlamp!

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## BENESSE

> Gives me tunnel vision...............Hehehehehe


 So now we know what to blame it on.  :Wink:

----------

