# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Best locations / Survival stories

## Ralbert

Hello,

Me and my girlfriend are really into wilderness survival and are planning to experience it ourselves next summer vacation. 
At the moment we are reading books, gathering information and increasing our knowledge of bushcraft overall. 

Obviously weve got a lot of questions and would like to receive advice from the pros. Thats where you guys come in.  :Smile: 

*1)* First things first; whats the best place to go to?
What we want is quite simple: a forest environment, river/lake close by, plenty of fish/fruit, not too extreme cold/hot etc. We're want to live of the land for the most part and only take some rice with us.

I believe Ive read something that the only place where its still legal to practice survival in the wild is Scandinavia, or are there other regions that fit our criteria well?

*2)* Secondly, we would love to hear travel stories/diaries of wilderness survival. Our internet searches for blogs with detailed information about the journey and pictures have so far been in vain. We would appreciate it if you guys could link us some good websites. 

Thanks a lot,
Ralbert.

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## tacmedic

I'll beat Rick to the punch on this one. . .  Ralbert- why don't you surf on over to the introductions section and tell us a little about yourselves.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14 Also, if you use the search function on the control panel you will probably find a lot of info already posted on here that may help.

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## tsitenha

Se:kon Ralbert,  First thing, how much experience do you have actually?
If you are just starting up I would suggest a day trip followed by a few week end trips to  get used to applying those book taught skills that you are acquiring.

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## crashdive123

How long do you plan on going for?  Do you have experience fishing and hunting? (rice can get real lonely)  It's great that you are determined to learn before you go.  Might I suggest practice as well.  tsitenha gave good advice with starting out with shorter trips.  Sometimes you don't know what you don't know until you try it.  Welcome to the forum.

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## Gray Wolf

Welcome, I need to ask the same. What kind of wilderness skills are you proficient at, ie; fire starting and up keep of fire, shelter building, water purification, hunting by any means, fishing, cleaning game or fish, compass and map reading? Those are just for starters. What kind of camping equipment do you have that you are experienced with using? Again Welcome!

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## Rick

Well, first, you don't practice survival. You might go out for an extended period of time but being in a survival situation is what you are wanting to AVOID. 

We need to know a LOT more about you and your GF in terms of wilderness knowledge and experience before I'll even attempt to provide an answer.

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## canid

here's a question that might bear asking more often:

what do you consider to be the difference between a 'survival trip' and a camping or trekking excursion? e.g. what experiences and/or challenges are you wishing to create? what are you hoping to do? what will be legal will depend not only on the area you are in, but on what kind of activities you intend to engage in.

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## Sourdough

I offer a "CRASH" course......... :EEK!:

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## Beo

There is no such thing as a survival situation unless you are in an emergency. You don't just go out and put yourself into it, well unless your Bear Gryls  :Big Grin:  or Les Stroud  :Big Grin:  what you are doing is going camping or hiking or a mix of both. Now if you get lost, or injured, a natural disaster hits while your there then you will be in a survival situation and lets face it really... as Rick said... YOU WANNA AVOID THAT.
Beo,

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## Sarge47

1st do a proper intro...2nd, we'll then decide if you're a Wolf or a Numpty, or TheFreakinBear sneakin' in to "Jack more data!! :EEK!:

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## Ralbert

Hey guys, thanks for your replies!
We'll give some more information about ourselves as requested.

As for our actual field experience; little to none. At the moment we're reading "Ray Mears - Bushcraft" and "Collin Gem's - SAS Survival Guide". Any suggestions about other reading material (books or on the tripple double U is appreciated. 

As for a more detailed discription of what we want to do:

*a)* Setting up camp. Crafting a shelter, fireplace, reflector and such. We will be bringing along a tent but only to sleep in and it will be away from the cooking/daytime shelter area.  
*b)* Aprox length of the survival trip will be 2-3 weeks (in one spot) depending on how well we're doing.  :Smile:  
*c)* We want to learn the bushcraft skills overall with as little outside help as possible when they are not absolutely needed. A few examples of our 'rules list': 

- No lighter/matches, flint/magnesium stick and firebow as replacements. 
- We will be bringing some cooking equipment as it is pretty vital to boil water and be able to make dinner in. At the moment we're not absoultely sure one how much of this equipment is needed though.
- We will of course have some emergency items in the car parked quite some distance away, like a phone, lighter, flashlight, food, etc... but the goal of the trip is to *not* use it or we've 'failed our mission'.  :Big Grin: 
- No/little outside food. Rice as stomach filling mostly, maybe some vitamine pills 'just in case'  :Smile:  but most of the actual food has to be available. Living of the land is an important thing of survival in our opinion. Fishing and gathering fruits shouldn't be a big problem but actually catching wildlife without experience is probably a stretch? Still, we are thinking about following bow training and bring one along. Also; trapping is an interresting part to learn in our opinion aswell. The big question here is: is it viable to get meat by means of bow and arrow and traps without actual wilderness experience?

We hope this gives you guys some more information to answer our questions.
Thanks in advance,
Ralbert


PS: We know following a survival/bushcraft training before our trip is the smart thing to do. _However, it's also less exciting to go somewhere when you know it will be a cakewalk once you get there..._  We believe (/hope) detailed knowledge of all the theory (with some practice @home) should be enough to prepare us for the trip.

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## Rick

> At the moment we're not absoultely sure one how much of this equipment is needed though.


It's all needed. You don't go off without backups of everything and expect the woods to provide all that you need. It just doesn't work that way. You take everything you need and then use only what you have to use. What are you going to do if you get out there, it's raining and you have no way to start a fire? Not having a lighter or two, flints, etc. is just fool hardy. Folks have been known to succumb to hypothermia in 50-60 F weather when they get wet. The wrong clothes can wick your heat right out of your body in what would otherwise be a nice temperature. 

Since you have little to no experience you need to start learning the basics. That means learning how long you can stay alive without anything. That's called the rule of threes. 

3 minutes without air
3 hours without shelter
3 days without water
3 weeks without food

And your priorities may not be in that order depending on the circumstances you find your self in. Do a search on the rule of threes on this site (and others). You also want to do a search for what needs to be in your survival pack (you dang sure better have one) and what your ruck or pack needs to have. There are even threads on the best survival books on this site. 

Going off into the woods with no knowledge, no experience and no tools is a good way to find yourself dead so do some searches on here.

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## tsitenha

Do take a course, there are several groups that offer such skill driven education in the UK and they are well worth it.
Courses like these for newbies are an easier way to be exposed to the real skill sets that you will need not the imaginary outdoors life style.
Most here have spent a lifetime acquiring such skills and practice them all the time.
Take the course then come back and tell us if they were really needed or not. 
PM to follow.

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## crashdive123

Gosh, where to begin.  How about with your last statement.




> PS: We know following a survival/bushcraft training before our trip is the smart thing to do. However, it's also less exciting to go somewhere when you know it will be a cakewalk once you get there... We believe (/hope) detailed knowledge of all the theory (with some practice @home) should be enough to prepare us for the trip.


No offense, but this speaks volumes. 




> We will of course have some emergency items in the car parked quite some distance away, like a phone, lighter, flashlight, food, etc... but the goal of the trip is to not use it or we've 'failed our mission'.


Think about this.  Having essential emergency items in a location that you may not be able to reach will do you absolutely no good at all.  Keep them with you.  Don't use them unless the situation calls for it.  You may consider it failing your mission, but at least you'll be able to learn from it and make improvements on future attempts.




> No lighter/matches, flint/magnesium stick and firebow as replacements


Some things are critical for survival.  Shelter, fire, water.....as Rick said, review the rule of 3's.  




> but most of the actual food has to be available.


Being available and being able to obtain it may be two different matters.  I consider my knowledge of the wilderness and survival pretty good.  I would not want to place myself intentionally in a situation where I had to rely on my limited knowledge of wild edibles (notice I said intentionally).  If you make a mistake, you can become very ill or worse.

I'm glad that you've come here to learn and are using other sources to learn.  Start out with shorter trips.  Bring all of your gear.  As your experience level improves you will use less and less of it.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a full pack containing everything you need, but not opening it.  Keep in mind that survival is not a game.  Knowing that you can survive if the need arises can be exilerating though.  Good luck.  Learn and practice.

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## Ralbert

Alright, the warnings are well understood.  :Embarrassment: 
Its not like we are going into the wilderness without preparation. We are well aware of the need to practice and learn about the subject. 
The reason why our posts probably seem too optimistic is that we factor in that the trip wont happen till like a year from now so weve got quite some time to prepare. 

We will take everything essential and then some with us, keeping it close is logical. The goal however is to gather the knowledge so we wont be needing it IF the environment can provide it.
Thats part of the reason why weve asked for a location suggestion here since the location matters a lot on what type of skills/knowledge we are going to need. Knowing what place is best suited for us enables us to prepare further with information regarding that particular environment.

Have that said, I thank you guys for warning us how not to end up like 2 corpses in some foreign forest.  :Smile:

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## tsitenha

In Scandanavia trapping and such would probably need a license and a specific area, it is very well regulated, even here in North America.
We are not trying to be hard but only want to open as many possibilities that you may not have considered.

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## LostOutrider

I haven't been on this forum very long, but already can see how this sort of post crops up considerably often.  I just don't get it.  Is this because of how society has increasingly distanced itself from wild places?  Even small rural towns growing more suburban and insular, so that the folks living in them - the closest they get to the wilderness is the camo T-shirt section of the local Wal-Mart?   Or is it the popularity of survival-themed reality television?  You just take so much of the perfumed, anti-bacterial environment of your day to day life that you snap and want to run off into the woods naked with a bowie knife in your teeth?

Don't get me wrong - I understand the itch.  I'm just not getting the urge to toss yourself into a fabricated survival situation.  

I have a suggestion, so that I am actually contributing to (instead of dumping on) this thread:  

Go backpacking.  Seriously.  Forget backing up the SUV and your camper, unloading the propane grill and hooking up the sat connection for your TV.  Instead, spend a week or so figuring out how much you can carry - for how long - and look for some good trails in your area.  Eat and drink only what you carry and can find, sleep only on what you bring or find.  Pare down the weight by bringing tools and information to make or procure what you didn't bring.  (Water is lighter when you find it than when you hump it in.  What plants/food is in season?)  Leave your Ramboman Serrated Survival Katana and your genuine customized SAW at home, load up on Clif bars and iodine tablets, and go get stinky in the woods for a while. 

You have a few weeks . . . a few months to kill?  Head out to the Appalachian Trail.  Get your Man vs. Wild experience (if you have your own support crew & can copter back to the hotel each night) that way.

Start with a few smaller, one or two night hikes.  Get to know your equipment, your limits, and the limits of those you are with.  Along the way, make all the little bark baskets and fish spears you want - but remember not to crap too close to the trail and to scatter out your little pine bough-shelter when you're done so that the next one coming along gets to feel as Dan'l Boone as you did.

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## crashdive123

Ralbert - I may have missed it, but what part of the world are you in now and how far do you want or would you travel for your journey?

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## Sarge47

You're headed over into the "Numpty"(idiot) category quite quickly.  SURVIVAL is NOT the latest "Extreme Sport"!  "It's LIFE OR DEATH"!  Get that through your head!  You find yourself in a situation where your girl-friend's life is hanging by a thread & you watch her die because you can't get any help!  Your a month without food with a broken leg waaaay out in the woods & her corpse starts to look like a 3 course meal!  That's SURVIVAL!  Training is one thing, but you don't EVER deliberately put yourself or your loved one into a LIFE OR DEATH situation; that's plain STUPID!  Sorry if I'm not making myself clear. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   However I'll not advise you in any manner & have your, or your girl-friends life on my conscience! :Cool:

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## tsitenha

Sarge, your right the money, to often that we have found people out in the bush completely bewildered, the experience wasn't exactly like their plans.
Some of us had to return with these "adventurers" and you know what most didn't even leave a thank you or even acknowledged the help.

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## Sourdough

Did.....I mention....I offer a "CRASH" course. There a serious ramifications for failing..

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## Fletcher

Wow thats a good question. Where is that magical place? It's out there just over the next hill or is it around the next bend in this river of life we so...................well the hard truth is there is NO PREFECTsurvival places. Some are way better than others and some just SUCK!!!! You need to try camping with full gear the first few times you out take a tent sleeping bags food water. Start a fire try some fishing become one wiht the woods you will do just fine! If you go with no experience into the wilds with minimum of equipment ie "rice"  you will be COLD WET AND HUNGERY

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## crashdive123

Hey Fletcher - good advice.  How bout heading over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.

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## Rick

"A year from now" paints a bit of a different story. Still, you have a long way to go on the knowledge trail and the best way to acquire your experience is through week-end treks. Spend one or two week-ends a month (or more if you can) backpacking and camping with your tent. In short order you will begin to get the "feel" of what your experience will be like. You don't even have to go to the woods to practice things like fire making. You can do that in your back yard. Try it with fire bow (Did I mention I'm lousy at it?), char cloth, different types of tinder, etc. Do it when it's nice and when it's raining so you get a good feel of how frustrating it can be. Then imagine that you are cold and hungry trying to make that fire and you'll begin to understand the need to perpetually practice...then practice some more. You'll also begin to understand what you need to have with you at all times. 

Practice setting up your tent inside. Do it with the lights out at night because I promise you'll get the opportunity at some time outdoors. You'll get into camp after dark and your headlamp will suddenly go belly up giving you the opportunity to sleep on cold wet ground without a tent or put the tent up in the dark. You need to become that familiar with your gear. 

Doing a week-end camping trip may not be the extreme adventure you are looking for but I promise that you'll learn tons by doing it and, in the end, that extreme adventure might not look so attractive. You don't know what you don't know.

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## Proud American

If you wonder if this is harsh then take a look at what every body is afraid of, look at this thread http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...read.php?t=378 The part every one is afraid of is post 10-11. Notice even though this thread is call the bear wilderness numptys he is proposing you take 70 pounds of equipment. That is already more then your planning to bring. So let me lay it out to you from one inexperienced person to another, YOU CAN'T BRING TO LITLE. If you take offence like the other guy Adrian did then you are one of those Rambo types who show up on a wilderness survival forum and think everyone else is a Rambo.That is what makes this sight so good is that there isn't a bunch of Rambo's on this sight and if they see your doin somthin that is definatley dangerous or ignorant they'll call you on it. 

If you want to not be a Rambo then youll stay and learn, if you get offended then go to a Rambo sight that will pat you on the back and say "stick it to the man", when you make suggestions like that. Granted you are better you arent just bringin a knife. :Smile: 

Just my advice

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## trax

Hey Ralbert

1.My advice is, take the "meanest" advice you've had on here so far to heart. 
2. Look at some of the potential scenarios that were laid out here that could pop up and screw up your life, I thought Remy did a particularly good job with that.

3. Stop thinking you're going to go out and "survive". I do that if I walk across the street and buy a package of smokes and make it back ok. Survival is relative to your situation. Do not, please, go out into a wilderness area unequipped and unprepared because you read a couple of books on survival techniques. For example, if you're going to use alternative fire starting methods, or any firestarting methods, go out in the back yard and practice it repeatedly. Got good at it? Great, now go out and practice in the rain....see what I mean?

4. Do what several here have suggested, start with small overnight or weekend trips as you become more proficient.

5. If you want to live off the land, literally, you better find out what the fishing and hunting laws are where you're going. Conservation officers aren't interested in your experiment with nature. They're interested in upholding the law. They're the people you're most likely to meet.

6. If I missed it, sorry, but tell us where the heck you are on the planet. We can give a lot better advice knowing what wilderness areas might be available to you.

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## Sarge47

....with Trax, Remy(great post, BTW), Rick, Proud, Crash, & all the others who's names escape me now.  There's something "not right" here.  You need to pay attention, listen, & learn.  1st learn to enjoy the outdoors; learn what you need to do just to have a great time.  The rest will come with practice.  No one here learned how to get along in the Wilderness in a short time & by reading only a couple of books.  They started out by camping & had experienced people, oft-times instructors/Scoutmasters to teach them "hands-on" what they needed to know.  That's what you need to do, it could save a couple of lives here. :Cool:

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## LostOutrider

Yeah, what he said.  

But don't run off, Ral & Ral's girlfriend.  It might not be the advice you were looking for, but there's a lot here that can help you.  

(At least until you start talkin' about killing gophers and lumberjacking with your trusty Kit Carson tommy-hawk.)

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## Ralbert

> Loud, messy, undisciplined, cocky children that think they know it all...


Well thank you for that nice little flaming metaphor there Remy. Did we stumble into an angry survival elitist cult here? Because if we did, were sorry, we didnt mean to register on a forum where people are more interested in discouraging rather than actually giving helpful advice.
I see people using referrals like Rambo... which is odd, because I clearly remember saying were dedicated to learn everything and got a whole year to prepare. Ive never seen Rambo prepare anything longer than 5 minutes nor have backup.

Its understandable you guys try to prevent newbies from going into the woods with nothing more than scented toilet paper and an electric shaver.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
I thought it was clear we dont belong to this category because all those survival books have detailed checklists of stuff you absolutely need and we plan to bring along every single item on that list. When I said no luxury items I obviously didnt mean items on that list. I thought that was common sense but apparently I was wrong. 
I guess hearing to many doom scenarios of people going unprepared makes you think everyone new has an IQ of below freezing point. To be honest, its quite insulting.




> I just don't get it.  Is this because of how society has increasingly distanced itself from wild places?  Even small rural towns growing more suburban and insular, so that the folks living in them - the closest they get to the wilderness is the camo T-shirt section of the local Wal-Mart?   Or is it {......}


Yeah, its probably the camo T-shirt thing... I know someone who likes to collect stamps. Could you psychoanalyze that hobby for me too?




> Wow thats a good question. Where is that magical place? It's out there just over the next hill or is it around the next bend in this river of life we so...................well the hard truth is there is NO PREFECTsurvival places. Some are way better than others and some just SUCK!!!!


Ok, so theres no perfect place? But there is a way better and sucky category? Wow, got it! 
Maybe, just maybe when I asked for a good location, or that magical place as youve so elegantly put it... I wasnt asking for an actual perfect place but suggestions for locations which have the highest density of way better places and as little sucky ones as possible.

Please, enough with the oh my god, youll die there you idiot bandwagon flaming. The type of place we have in mind with the equipment well bring is nowhere near the approximate vicinity of hazardous.

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## crashdive123

Please realize that most people here really do want to be helpful.  I'll go back to my last question for you in order to try and provide you with some helpfull info.

What part of the world are you in now and how far do you want or would you travel for your journey?

Additionally - is there a type of environment that you would prefer?  A tropical island setting has always had a certain allure for me, althought the challenges can be many.  Our members that live way up north would probably say tha 40 below 0 offers up some challenges.  Is there a particular time of the year you would prefer to do this?

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## Beo

Northern Mountains of Montana up around Shelby or Chester, it gets pretty devoid of human contact there, but your miles from a town. The Park Rangers won't mess with you if you sign in and leave a return date (if your not back by the return date they'll check on you, if you're not around they'll start a search) that's a safety precaution. Those deep forested mountains run up through Canada and can be anywhere from challenging to life threatening. 
Between now and the year before you leave for wherever you go practice: fire making, making shelters, i.d. of edible-medicinal-dangerous plants in the area you choose, i.d. the wildlife in the area, streams and ponds, water purification, get a map (topo and road) and learn to read it and terrain features, start working out carrying your pack on hikes or walks with a minimum of twenty pound more than you will carry so you get used to it, always tell someone where you are going, when you are going, and when you'll be back. Take a minimum of three emergency signal devices (whistle, signal panel, mirror, chem-lites, Never a flare gun in the forest may cause a fire) and search the threads here for more info and this is the begining of the training. 
Never take anything here as downing you, we're a thick skinned bunch who have many years of wilderness experience and some here have been on and are on SAR (search And Rescue) Teams so we see this all the time and really don't enjoy pulling carcases out of the forests, montains, deserts, or rivers. If you can't find it in the search ask. Reading a survival book is good but it's second to actually practicing it and becoming really good at it.
Hope this helps you.
Beo,

I know some on here aren't gonna like this but if their gonna do it then I'd rather try an help then send them off to site that is full of Numpty's who may fill their head with garbage.

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## Beo

Oh, and by the way I am not part of any "angry survival elitist cult" and my knowledge comes from years of training as a U.S. Army Ranger and even more years just learning the wilderness ways and survival techniques by listening and hands on training from those better skilled than me. You may not like taking a course but they are very helpful, or the military would do away with them and there wouldn't be public ones. Try one and see if you like it, it can never hurt.
Just my two cents.
Beo,

P.S. remember...
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## bulrush

Ralbert, this site is full of well-meaning people who have been there, done that, and know how dangerous being unprepared is. That said, I will get right to the point. You have no idea how unprepared you are by jumping into a 2-3 week survival, live-off-the-woods scenario. You need to ease into it. 

Please understand that the woods and camping has been an almost daily part of my life since I was 10 years old when I moved to the country. Now read how unprepared I was below.

I discovered how unprepared I was when I went camping with my son and the Boy Scouts. It had been raining all week for about 4 hours per day and all the wood was soaked. After the first night of camping, I discovered no amount of matches was going to make me a fire. And only one scout (almost Eagle scout I believe) knew how to make a fire with wet wood. Well, you carve off the outer layer of wood until you find dry wood underneath. We were all shivering and freezing (it was about 45 degrees and wet) until he woke up and showed us how to get the fire started. 

That said you need to ease into things in the following manner: 
- Do an overnight campout in your own backyard. Practice fire making with the skills you will use on your 2-3 week final "test". Make your own food. Since you may not be able to hunt or fish in your own backyard (I'm assuming you're in a suburb) you can bring your own food. If you can skip using the toilet and dig a pit in your backyard, do it. Get your water from a stream if you are lucky enough to live by one. A 5 gallon bucket helps a lot here. 

- Next do a several night campout in a campground, near water. Do the same as above, though the campground may not let you put your human waste in a pit. You may be forced to use a pit toilet. Do several of these campouts in various weather types: cold (with snow), warm, rainy, dry. 

Then you might be prepared to go on your 2-3 week jaunt.

I have some survival hints which will be useful in the woods. It also dispels many myths about various topics of survival. It is meant to be printed out and studied, or even take it with you into the field.
http://www.geocities.com/csroberts/survival.htm

Survival is a lot about managing risk. Do you really want to risk drinking "pure" stagnant water? Have you ever had uncontrollable diarhea for 4 weeks straight? Do you really want to take that risk, or should you boil that water first? Do you feel lucky?

We are trying to discourage you from doing too much too soon. Many people here are in search and rescue and they are tired of finding dead bodies to bring home. We are trying to encourage you to take logical steps, it is harder than it looks. Identifying edible plants and non-diseased meat is harder than it looks.

*I am experienced enough to know my own inexperience.* I know there are things I don't know, and that makes me cautious. 

Good luck.

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## tsitenha

Ralbert, obviously you've no mind to heed anything anyone says here.
To insinuate that we are "elitist" just because we don't agree and pump your deluded romantic ego with your (read a book, seen a RM show on the tele and did I say we will take a year to read more) mentality; can't be further from the truth. 
You've still haven't told us where your from (the UK I would guess)
or where you would like to go (Scandanavia?)
Or any other real life preparations such as trapping rights, hunting licenses, not to mention the ability to shelter/warm yourself, provide potable water, find adequate flora in the locale that you have in mind. Can you use a knife without loosing digits? Or even mend those digits?
Let alone the physical abilities of trekking,wilderness living or enduring the insects, or dealing with the myriads of factors that will crop up, a year is way to short for a final test.
Again take a course, expand your knowledge base with real camping/hiking trips, call back in a year or two let us know if it is still as easy as you seem to understand it as of this moment.
YO

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## Rick

> Please, enough with the oh my god, youll die there you idiot bandwagon flaming. The type of place we have in mind with the equipment well bring is nowhere near the approximate vicinity of hazardous.


Then you need to spell out what the variables are and not expect us to just intuitively understand what it is you are doing. When you make statements like "your experience is little or none" or "not sure we need all the equipment" it leads us to believe exactly what you say. If you take off into the wilderness with no experience and leave behind important tools you take a good chance of dying or being seriously injured or some SAR group has to risk their life to rescue you. See the point? And no, I don't assume you have an IQ below freezing point. I don't assume anything. I just respond to what I'm told. 

If you want our help, we're more than willing to try to help you but we aren't very good at guessing your intentions so do as Crash suggested and let us know what geographic location you are in, where you intend to do this, and what "list" you intend to take with you. For all I know your list is from a grocery store.

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## Riverrat

Ralbert, I live in rural New brunswick, have most of my life. If I look out any window in my house, I see woods, I live in the woods and have the better part of my life. I would not even think of trying to "live off the land" unless it is the last option to stay alive. It is almost impossible to find food enough to live,(find out the laws for your area) you will have to have clean water, enough to drink and also enough to keep clean (help prevent sickness). 
What is your medical training? what do you do if your GF falls down and breaks her leg? arm? or better yet, her back? does she know how to help you in the event you are hurt? Believe me it can happen, had and axe bounce of a dry log and hit my hand while choping fire wood, cut the radial artery, even with a proper first aid kit, and at the time, a basic FA course, I was weak, white and feeling dizzy by the time I got out of the woods. Accidents happen, that is life, but if you are not prepared for them, you can die, it is no joke. 
You have some of the best advice ever given to anyone, given to you on this site, start with small trips, overnight, even a couple of days. take the courses, and listen to the ones who have given you advice here, they are not trying to discourge you, but keep you alive. Ask your questions and you will recive answers, if they are not the ones you want to hear, maybe you should re-think what you are planning, espically if everyone is saying the same thing.

----------


## Sourdough

Did I point out that I offer a "CRASH" survival course, 100% guaranteed to learn bunches of stuff.....?

----------


## tsitenha

Ralbert, you want exact info on the best place to survive?

*Isle 4 at your local Tesco* (grocery store).


Now that's funny no matter who you are.
See we do have a sense of humour, about the only sense we collectively possess

----------


## Fletcher

OK the best place to survive is in a warm shelter with in walking distance of a superwalmart that is next door to a hospital...............





SURVIVAL IS A STATE OF MIND NOT A PLACE

----------


## Sarge47

That flaming post of yours was uncalled for.  Your plans are NOT feasable; every one is telling you that.  I think you're a Troll from TheFreakinBear, either that or a total idiot!  I will be watching you really close!  If you come on as a Troll you will be banished! :Cool:

----------


## crashdive123

> Did.....I mention....I offer a "CRASH" course. There a serious ramifications for failing..


OK Hopeak - that's the third time you have offered to train me. :Big Grin:   Let's see....you were a professional hunting guide for a number of years, bush pilot (with a very nice pre-flight checklist).  OK - I can learn.  Where do I sign up? :Big Grin:

----------


## Rick

Crash, need I remind you his outhouse has NO door? (he's uncivilized!). Think about what you are exposing yourself too!! (I would say that was a little pun but then I'd be insulting you. :Wink: )

----------


## crashdive123

It's not what I'm exposing myself to, but rather whom that should be of concern. :Big Grin:

----------


## Sourdough

The course is open to anyone with lots of money. Here is how it works, any time of the year, someone buys a aircraft, I fly them into the wilderness, or bush as we call it, I crash the plane, I am skilled at this. For a few extra dollars I will break the survival seekers leg, smash the ELT. And the thrilling, exhilarating, survival school opens.

I am still working on the advanced course.......Maybe crashing through the ice something I have only done once, well OK, twice, but I was the passenger the second time, so I did not get any crash credit. The aircraft sinks with all the gear, and we are wet, but it is a toasty 24* above. This course would only be "FUN" for WarEagle.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## crashdive123

Never mind......I was thinking it would rely more heavily on your pre-flight check list.

----------


## davef

Ralbert,

Check your sarcasm and your ego at the door.  There is no place for them here and they aren't welcome.

You came on to this forum with a plan, asking for help, but gave almost no information as to your preparations and you got called on it.  
Instead of going "oops" and giving a more detailed disclosure like any serious person would do, you got your nose out of joint, and resorted to "bulls**t sarcasm"

*Grow up!!!*

Do you think that the people here have this site just because they get their jollies flaming newbies like you and me?

You got called on it because the *amount of information* you gave indicated that you hadn't really thought things through, 
and the folks here didn't want to hear of you through a news story about you being found dead in the bush because you weren't prepared.  
Belaboring the point, if you had included more information in your initial post, you would not have gotten the reception that you did.

A lot of people on here have acquired a lifetime worth of knowledge and you need to have respect for that.
If you sincerely came on here with the desire to tap the knowledge base that these people have, then you should have given 
a detailed disclosure of your plans and preparations in the first place.

Now get off your soapbox, and give a detailed assessment of what skills you have attained so far.  
You mentioned that you've been reading survival books (which ones?) and searching on the internet.

Have you taken any first aid training?

Are you working on a kit? 

Give these people a detailed assessment of where you are right now so that they can help you, 
let them know with as much detail as you can, where you want your skill and knowledge level to be a year from now.  
Ask for advice and HEED that advice.  
Get some dirt time like everyone's been telling you to.  Start slow, start small and build up to what you are planning to do.

DON'T BE A FOOL, INSTEAD BECOME A SERIOUS STUDENT OF WHAT THESE PEOPLE CAN OFFER YOU.
I'm not regretting it, and nor will you.







> Well thank you for that nice little flaming metaphor there Remy. Did we stumble into an angry survival elitist cult here? Because if we did, were sorry, we didnt mean to register on a forum where people are more interested in discouraging rather than actually giving helpful advice.
> I see people using referrals like Rambo... which is odd, because I clearly remember saying were dedicated to learn everything and got a whole year to prepare. Ive never seen Rambo prepare anything longer than 5 minutes nor have backup.
> 
> Its understandable you guys try to prevent newbies from going into the woods with nothing more than scented toilet paper and an electric shaver. 
> 
> I guess hearing to many doom scenarios of people going unprepared makes you think everyone new has an IQ of below freezing point. To be honest, its quite insulting.
> 
> Yeah, its probably the camo T-shirt thing... I know someone who likes to collect stamps. Could you psychoanalyze that hobby for me too?
> 
> ...

----------


## nell67

Thank you davef,well said.

----------


## Rick

Okay, now I get it. You're coming in through RIPE out of Amsterdam. One of the many we've banned from there along the way. I should have checked your IP sooner. I'm done with you.

----------


## crashdive123

So this guy isn't serious?  Well if not, when another new forum member gets his/her nose out of joint because they didn't like the answers we can always reference this thread I guess.

----------


## Sarge47

It's always the same pattern.  The Newbie jumps in with a stupid question without a proper intro & asks for advice, then severely criticizes those that advise & ignores requests for further info.  They also stay away most of the time.  Brother Wolves, we're being played! :Mad:

----------


## crashdive123

No big deal Sarge.  Posts like his just reinforce why we ask the questions and give the advice that we do.

----------


## davef

Sarge,

Has anyone given thought to putting a mandatory lurking period into affect 
for new members?

The reason that I ask, is that I've seen this mandatory period used on 
another list that I'm on.  
That list, requires new members to lurk for at least a month after joining, just 
to get the feel of the place, *before* being allowed to even make an 
introductory post and an introductory post is mandatory *before* a new 
user is allowed to make regular posts.

I don't know how the mechanics of this forum work, so I don't know if it's 
feasible, but I know that I would be willing to go into lurk mode for a month 
on this forum in order to join.  
There is so much material here that most of my time so far has been spent reading posts.

Just my $.02
Dave





> It's always the same pattern.  The Newbie jumps in with a stupid question without a proper intro & asks for advice, then severely criticizes those that advise & ignores requests for further info.  They also stay away most of the time.  Brother Wolves, we're being played!

----------


## VOSS

I think that a we have hit the point that it is a major issue to go out into the backcountry without setting up the proper experience.  Honestly, the best place to study survival [I]technique[I] is in your own backyard.  One of the best ways to learn about a specific aspect of bushcraft is to have ample supplies, for instance various different types of wood for learning how to build a bow-and-drill, without the stress of an actual or staged survival situation.

One major aspect of survival that has been overlooked in the previous conversations is the aspect of the psychological side of survival.  When one is first getting started in survival situations the hardest part can be just sleeping outside, on the ground, in the dark-without a light.  The creepy crawlies and the bogeyman (also known as rabbits and raccoons) can be the most challenging part even to a seasoned survival 'expert.'  Becoming comfortable with how you react in these situations should be one of your first priorities.

Don't forget there is a major difference between a survival situation, which usually averages about 24-72 hours, and primitive living techniques.  Finding out which one you are most interested in may dictate what reading you will want to purchase.  May I recommend Cody Lundin's "98.6 Degrees:  How to keep your *** alive."  If you are like most in this circuit you will find that you want to know both, so I would recommend learn first to start a fire with matches then learn to start one with sticks...

----------


## Ralbert

Usually when someone gives a certain advice people dont repeat the exact same advice over and over, yet in this topic, basically the only subject is the grim reaper. Interesting as it may be, its not. (first one to make a comment about death is serious gets a cookie)
Maybe I shouldnt have used the word survival as this word can only be used by an elite, apparently...





> Okay, now I get it. You're coming in through RIPE out of Amsterdam. One of the many we've banned from there along the way. I should have checked your IP sooner. I'm done with you.





> Has anyone given thought to putting a mandatory lurking period into affect for new members?





> It's always the same pattern.  {...} Brother Wolves, we're being played!


One of Many? Lurking period? Pattern!?

Oh thank god, so its not just me youve scared away with hostile, flaming advice basically saying were elites and youre an idiot or what are the disguise words this forum loves using? Ah yes wolf and numpty!
To be honest I was quite shocked of the responses. Being negative over an idea is one thing but this forum goes well beyond that line and apparently this isnt the first time. 
In retrospect Im not surprised.

Thanks for the private messages though, they were a bit more civilized.
- Ralbert

----------


## crashdive123

Seems that some on the forum have caused you to become upset.  I suppose that happens on forums just as it does in real life.  All of the acrymony could have been easily avoided (an I believe still can be if you are willing) by helping us help you by answering the questions that have been posed.  If you are in Amsterdam and aren't inclined to spend thousands in travel then me recommending that the mountains of Colorado or British Columbia are probably not going to help you in what you are seeking.  If you would prefer harsh winter conditions, then suggesting the Everglades in South Florida will not fit the bill.

Entering an new environment - I don't care if it's a party across town, and internet forum, or the wilderness - you have to be willing to exchange ideas and information in order to thrive.  It's a two way street, not a one way.  You seem to focus on the posts that upset you rather than the posts trying to assist you. So if you are serious - there will still be many that are willing to help -even those that you appear less than fond of.  It's your call.

----------


## LostOutrider

> Oh thank god, so its not just me youve scared away with  . . .


Well, not yet it seems.  But, hey, go ahead on out there and read you some stories and checklists and go play survival with your girlfriend.  I'll offer nothing but encouragement in your venture from here on out.   :Cool: 

Mean old message forums are way scarier than anything Mother Nature can do to you.   Here's a book for ya:

http://www.amazon.com/Man-vs-Wild-Te...0440230&sr=8-1

Man vs. Wild:  Survival Techniques from the Most Dangerous Places on Earth (Hardcover)  It has pictures!

----------


## nell67

> Hey guys, thanks for your replies!
> We'll give some more information about ourselves as requested.
> 
> As for our actual field experience; little to none. At the moment we're reading "Ray Mears - Bushcraft" and "Collin Gem's - SAS Survival Guide". Any suggestions about other reading material (books or on the tripple double U is appreciated. 
> 
> As for a more detailed discription of what we want to do:
> 
> *a)* Setting up camp. Crafting a shelter, fireplace, reflector and such. We will be bringing along a tent but only to sleep in and it will be away from the cooking/daytime shelter area. 
> *b)* Aprox length of the survival trip will be 2-3 weeks (in one spot) depending on how well we're doing.  
> ...


Dude,you have already failed your mission,if you can't answer a few simple civil questions on a forum without getting your shorts twisted in a knot,how the heck are you gonna make it in the wilderness? there are many situations there where there is no second chances,unlike here where the members are willing to help,IF you will listen and answer basic questions.

----------


## Rick

Feel better now that your little rant is out of the way? You're shocked? Because we asked you some questions that you still haven't bothered to answer? Too bad. And if you had actually read my post you would have noticed I said "banned" not "scared off". They did the same thing you are trying to do. They came on here with only the intention of causing problems. 

You need to make a decision. You can either continue to try and disrupt the forum, in which case you will also be banned in short order, or you can try to take a bit more off an adult approach and try answering a few of the questions that you've been asked. The ball is in your court. But, as Nell said, if you can't survive a forum you sure won't survive in the wild.

----------


## bulrush

> Okay, now I get it. You're coming in through RIPE out of Amsterdam. One of the many we've banned from there along the way. I should have checked your IP sooner. I'm done with you.


Is he really from Holland, Rick? All the Dutch Americans I have met were very practical and level-headed. Things must be different across the pond. Or perhaps it's the "big city mentality" of Amsterdam (and endemic to American big cities). Their parents gave them everything so they didn't have to work for anything.

----------


## Beo

Hey Amsterdam Boy, 
I tried to help you and you blasted me and my friends. So if you won't answer the few questions then I'm done. I was actually nice in the postings I did, rare thing for me to do to a numpty (yeah your a frig'n numpty), I'll help anyone out, from new here to wilderness experts if I can (no I'm no wilderness expert by a long shot but I can handle my own out there) but the next time someone asks you a simple question like what location are you in answer it (read Crash's post #57) and if you aren't thick skinned enough on this lil forum then I would hate to see ya in the woods, the only stupid question is the one not asked... but the answer may not be what you like if the question has not been completely given. So Amsterdam, got alot of good wilderness around there, but you can figure it out on your own, just let the SAR people know.
Beo,

----------


## Sarge47

To Dave F.:  I don't think a "lurking period" is the answer as many of these "goof-balls" lurk quite a bit before they get up the nerve to become a member.  

VOSS:  Remy/VolWest has done a ton of stuff on the psychological side of Survival.

Ralbert:  This is the last warning you're going to get from me; watch your step!  Don't "diss" my Homies, act more mature, & listen up.  Here it is again for the thickheaded among us:  "SURVIVAL IS NOT THE LATEST EXTREME SPORT!  IT IS LIFE & DEATH!"  Sorry I don't speak Dutch, but that's how it's said in English-American.  One bit of advice I will give you though...make sure you got those Organ Doner Cards filled out; also both of you need to have those "Last Wills & Testaments" in order. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ArmySurvivalist

Sarge, You cant translate into Dutch!! I thought you were a super MOD!!!

J/K

Dont diss his homie's, check.


-FACT- I did not lurk, I just joined. So did I escape the " Goof ball stage "??

----------


## Rick

His internet provider is HQd in Amersterdam. But he's somewhere in Nederland. 

AS, you were given a special dispensation to allow you past the "Goof Ball Stage". It's a rarity so don't blow it. By the way, we don't talk about privilege on here. It's very hush hush so the riff raff don't start yacking. You know how they are. Conspiracies stop be conspiracies when everyone knows about them.

----------


## ArmySurvivalist

Sorry for the hijack,

but you know something, I joined because I was thinking there is no way these guys no anything about survival on a wilderness survival forum with there heads so far up their.....

well.. 

I like it here.

All I know is, when can I upgrade to the wolf avatar pic..  :Big Grin:

----------


## crashdive123

> Sorry for the hijack,
> 
> but you know something, I joined because I was thinking there is no way these guys no anything about survival on a wilderness survival forum with there heads so far up their.....
> 
> well.. 
> 
> I like it here.
> 
> All I know is, when can I upgrade to the wolf avatar pic..


Hijacking????  It's what we do around here.  Change your avatar anytime you like - some do it often.  You joined - you're a member of the wolfpack.

----------


## nell67

Psssstt AS,it's Numptyland,not Nymptyland

----------


## trax

> Psssstt AS,it's Numptyland,not Nymptyland


How do you know where he lives?

----------


## crashdive123

Not to be confused with Nympholand.

----------


## Rick

(Busy checking world map for Nympholand).

----------


## ArmySurvivalist

Caught him in my internet snare. See guys that how you do it. Lure him in with a mis-spelled word and then the noose wraps right around his neck and
!!! BOOM !!! 

Caught me a we little bit of English teacher for dinner.

HAHA

Ill change it. thats funny though, I messed up a idiot saying. Does that make it true?

----------


## trax

> (Busy checking world map for Nympholand).


Obviously not the cherry capital that was referred to in a previous thread.

----------


## backtobasics

> Hello,
> 
> Me and my girlfriend are really into wilderness survival and are planning to experience it ourselves next summer vacation. 
> At the moment we are reading books, gathering information and increasing our knowledge of bushcraft overall. 
> 
> Obviously we’ve got a lot of questions and would like to receive advice from the pro’s. That’s where you guys come in. 
> 
> *1)* First things first; what’s the best place to go to?
> What we want is quite simple: a forest environment, river/lake close by, plenty of fish/fruit, not too extreme cold/hot etc. We're want to live of the land for the most part and only take some rice with us.
> ...


I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if i repeat what has already been said.  First off your plan is very dangerous. Second you can gain some experience in your own home, even if you live in a big city. Try to live in your home without heat or electricity for 3 days. It's really not that easy if your used to having all the comforts of home. How are you going to cook? how are you going to stay warm? How will you stop your food from going bad? I forgot to mention no water or entertainment.

----------


## crashdive123

Good advice Backtobasics, but he's long gone (maybe he's lurking, who knows).

----------


## PipeBundle

I've got some skill in the wilderness, but I wouldn't want to get caught in a survival situation. In the wilderness, you learn not to take unnecessary risks and to expect the unexpected. Those are the things that will kill you.

The worst situation I've ever been in happened in Quetico Provincial Park, just north of Voyager's Nat'l Park - Boundry Waters Canoe Area.

We were on our way out after a nice trip (we even had the rare fortune of witnessing a black bear kill a moose calf and pilfered one of the hind quarters for a nice treat!) except for the last nite which it poured down rain into the morning. We broke camp just as the rain let up not knowing if it would pick up again. It was cold, cloudy and windy, but not enough for whitecaps to form on the open lake.

Being experienced canoeists, we knew what we were getting into, planned the safest route possible, tested the waters and headed out. It was rough going but we weren't taking any water, much of the paddle was actually decent as we planned our route to take advantage of natural wind breaks. The LONG way home if you catch my drift  :Wink: 

At the last portage we took a break because the launch point was a beautiful shallow well protected sandy beach, the clouds were breaking and the sun had warmed the water to a perfect bath temperature. If you've ever taken baths in a lake a week after ice-out for two weeks straight, you can appreciate what I'm saying  :Smile:  We had shore lunch and a couple of small parties on their way in made portage, so we figured conditions were shaping up for better travel. We confirmed this with them and everything looked good, except for one relatively short stretch across open water that was a bit rough, but passable as was confirmed by the parties heading in.

So we secured all our gear to the canoe and headed out. The wind had died some, and the wave action wasn't quite as bad. The going was slow and then when we were damn near across the stretch and home free into a wind blocked shoreline for the final leg of the trip, the wind suddenly switched direction, got us sideways into the wave action started gusting and wham, both canoes dumped over.

Ok, now we were in a really really bad position, the sheltered shore was close, but against the wind. Water temp, 36-40 deg, maybe, who knows, a week after ice-out with a good deal of sunshine. Very frikking cold.

Our first instinct was to abandon the everything and swim to the sheltered shore...maybe 35 yds, but that was impossible with the wind and waves, we were losing ground. The further shore was the only possible choice about 75 yds. Between the 4 of us, we were able to right one of the canoes, taking advantage of the wave action and wind to flip it somewhat high and dry. Enough so that two guys were able to climb in and paddle. We quickly tied the other dead canoe and the guys paddling drug us to shore.

By the time we sloshed onto shore hypothermia was setting in and here we are in cotton everything, including flannels. Cold wind, brain dead, frozen stiff and vaguely aware that life wasn't getting better out of the water. Literally. I don't know whether it was instinct or what, but it became apparent that sitting there soaking wet in the cold wind was not the thing to do and we began stripping.

It didn't take long to dry off in the wind once we were naked and our lips began to lose their shade of deep blue to something more human. We could at least begin to assess our situation. We realized needed a wind block and there were no natural formations within visible distance, so we stacked the canoes on their sides against some trees, dug the tent fly out of the pack and draped it across the backs in kind of a lean-to. This allowed us to get a fire going, which took some time as the rain has soaked pretty much everything and we went through a considerable amount of brush trying to dry out small sticks to burn and work our way up, but we finally did manage to get enough of a fire to give at least some heat. So, we hung our wet clothes in the trees and the wind took care of the rest.

3-4 hours later, we were able to get dressed again, repacked the canoes, drug them down the shoreline a few hundred yards out of the wind and headed out for the last leg of the journey. By the time we got to the the pick up point at the US/Canada border, the wind had quit, the sky was blue, the water was glass and we had to strip down again to keep cool. LOL

We hit shore and I considered myself lucky the only thing I lost was my wallet.

----------


## nell67

Thanks for sharing your story pipebundle! When you get a chance,how about heading over to the introduction thread and telling us a little about yourself!
Sounds like you have lots to share with the pack :Smile:

----------


## dbldrew

I know I’m in the minority here but I really have no problem with this guys plan. I also really think you guys should lighten up on the insults as well. There is nothing wrong with going out and practicing your survival skills, and that is basically what this guy is doing. Now the safe way to go about it would be having a safety net to make sure when things don’t go your way you have plan B to fall back on. 

But it seems to me that he had a pretty good back up plan and calling him a "Numpty"(idiot) is a bit on the extreme side. (Not a good way to gain new members). Lets cut through the garbage here.

He is bringing a tent with him
He is bringing rice with him
He is bringing pots and pans for cooking 
He is bringing a Magnesium fire striker for fire (also bow drill)
He is going to have back up food, phone, matches/lighter, etc in the car
He has a year to practice before he goes

So basically he is going backpacking without a lighter but a magnesium fire striker, for this he gets called an idiot? Lighting a fire with a bow drill is a skill that is not easily mastered, but any idiot can light a fire with a magnesium fire striker even in the wet. Not that I think it’s a bad idea to bring more then 1 way to light a fire, but he is, he has a backup lighter/matches in his car. How long of a walk was it to get his backup supplies? 5min, 10min, 1 hour? Maybe we should of asked him before resorting to name calling, and then strongly suggest if the car is very far away to bring those back up supplies with, but I guess we will never know. 

He made a comment that accused this site of being “angry survival elitist cult” unfortunately that is how you guys are coming across. I understand that you had good intentions and are actually worried about people jumping into the woods unprepared, like someone going into the woods for a year with only a knife and no emergency supplies, but that’s not what happened here. He has food, shelter, fire making, and more supplies as backup, I wouldn’t exactly say that’s unprepared…

----------


## crashdive123

You may want to go back and re-read the posts.  Look at the information that he offered before getting any feedback.  After he provided that information, he asked for opinions - and he got them.  Some good, some bad.  Some gentle, some harsh.  It's kind of like going to the buffet.  Take what you want, leave what you do not want.  Not everybody here agrees.  In fact sometimes a few can be downright disagreeable.

It's important to remember - if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question!

----------


## dbldrew

I did read the posts, he stated his intentions and got some feedback and warnings he then posted this..

“Alright, the warnings are well understood.  
It’s not like we are going into the wilderness without preparation. We are well aware of the need to practice and learn about the subject.”

And this

“We will take everything essential and then some with us, keeping it close is logical” 

Seems like he is listening to some of the feedback, unfortunately then he gets called an idiot and other names, then big surprise it spirals out of control and he leaves. (but then why would he want to stick around with such a warm welcome?)

So answer me this, knowing he is bringing a tent, food, fire starting means, and now he admits to having his backup supplies close, whats the problem? Does that really warrant driving him off and name calling?

----------


## crashdive123

I agree that the name calling may not be the best way to make friends and influence people.

You say that he is bringing a tent (good), food (just rice according to him), fire starting needs, and backup supplies that may or may not be close.  Here's what I mean. 




> As for our actual field experience; little to none.


He shared that he has no experience, yet wants advice from those that he considers experienced.  To encourage him to do anything but gain that experience prior to his trip would have been irresponsible IMO.




> We will of course have some emergency items in the car parked quite some distance away, like a phone, lighter, flashlight, food, etc... but the goal of the trip is to not use it or we've 'failed our mission'.


Here he indicates he will have supplies, but not within reach.  A broken leg or getting lost (remember, he has no experience) would make those supplies useless.  The "failed" statement leads me to believe that this is some sort of game or rush that he is trying to have play out.  On top of that, he is taking somebody with him that would presumably be relying on him.  Not a good idea in my book.




> We know following a survival/bushcraft training before our trip is the smart thing to do. However, it's also less exciting to go somewhere when you know it will be a cakewalk once you get there... We believe (/hope) detailed knowledge of all the theory (with some practice @home) should be enough to prepare us for the trip.


Reinforces my previous statement by saying it's also less exciting to be prepared.




> The reason why our posts probably seem too optimistic is that we factor in that the trip wont happen till like a year from now so weve got quite some time to prepare.


Would have been useful info for those trying to offer advice from the start.  Not sure of his committment to prepare based on his other statements.




> We will take everything essential and then some with us, keeping it close is logical.


Conflicting statement with previous one.


Many of the questions that were asked were not answered.  Maybe it is better to say until you answer the following, I will not give you any advice.  Probably be accused of being some sort of survival elite....

So, with the information he provided, I for one am not sure that he was really looking for advice.  Maybe he wanted to hear "go for it", I don't know.  There are many that posted that would still be willing to offer advice.

----------


## Sarge47

Listen up guys & no offense meant here; this guy is/was a troll, probably from a Forum owned by one Ryan Gillespie, otherwise known as "TheFreakinBear".  Ryan came on here while both the Mods were away & posted 50 spam-posts just to anger everybody.  Then, after he was banned, came back on to hi-jack all the info posted here for his own forum.  This goes on quite frequently.  With all due respect, you're welcome to post, but please don't criticize how we try to protect the forums, fair enough?  Also remember that "flaming on our members" is NOT allowed! :Mad:   The guy in question came from a place where we'd had problems in the past.  There is a right way & a wrong way to enter any forum.  If you want to see some real stuff, visit the thread on "The Bare
Wilderness Numptys."  Oh, & please remember that here we're known as "The Wolf Pack", not the "itty bitty puppy dogs."  We do get a bit rough at times, but if you can survive it then your doin' good. :Cool:

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## dbldrew

Well obviously the reg members dont have access to the ip tracking like you do. So if he has had other accounts that have been banned that use the same ip then I understand you wanting him gone. I guess the only thing I could say is then call him on that right away, as in, tell him you know his ip and you know he just made another account to cause trouble, etc, etc, etc. That way the reg members that dont know his ip, will read you post and know he is just a troll and will just ignore him. 

Also I didnt flame anyone. I might have been a bit critical of you insulting him, but I didnt say anything that wasnt true, also if this is the "The Wolf Pack" then your hide should be thick enough to take someone being a bit critical towards you right  :Big Grin: 

I guess the only reason I posted my original response was because this new member seemed like he was actually willing to listen to some of the advice given, he was going to keep the back up food and supplies off in the car and then changed that to keeping it close by when other members cautioned him. It just seemed like a member that had a lot of potential to learn got driven away, but again didnt know his ip was of a known trouble maker. Its all good the Trolls gone and harmony is restored. 

Oh and Crash I was going to respond back to a few of your points but I guess there isnt much point anymore, if the guy was just full of BS.

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## go2ndAmend

I second all the previous posts by Dbldrew. I am confident in my bona fides, but it seems like every time someone new asks a question, the "wolf pack" circles for the kill. For this reason I don't post here much at all, just read the responses and move on.

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## Sarge47

> I second all the previous posts by Dbldrew. I am confident in my bona fides, but it seems like every time someone new asks a question, the "wolf pack" circles for the kill. For this reason I don't post here much at all, just read the responses and move on.


Oh for cryin' out loud!  Who's the "drama queen"?  Somebody get me my violin! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Sarge47

> Well obviously the reg members dont have access to the ip tracking like you do. So if he has had other accounts that have been banned that use the same ip then I understand you wanting him gone. I guess the only thing I could say is then call him on that right away, as in, tell him you know his ip and you know he just made another account to cause trouble, etc, etc, etc. That way the reg members that dont know his ip, will read you post and know he is just a troll and will just ignore him. 
> 
> Also I didnt flame anyone. I might have been a bit critical of you insulting him, but I didnt say anything that wasnt true, also if this is the "The Wolf Pack" then your hide should be thick enough to take someone being a bit critical towards you right 
> 
> I guess the only reason I posted my original response was because this new member seemed like he was actually willing to listen to some of the advice given, he was going to keep the back up food and supplies off in the car and then changed that to keeping it close by when other members cautioned him. It just seemed like a member that had a lot of potential to learn got driven away, but again didnt know his ip was of a known trouble maker. Its all good the Trolls gone and harmony is restored.


We don't "ignore" trolls, we ban them!  However this guy split before we found out. Rick is the guy who often finds this stuff out but he's not around near as much as he used to be.  Also I didn't mean to infer that YOU were flaming, I was refering to the other Trolls who've been on here.  We do what we do here, a lot of the members are out-spoken independent types, but then that goes with the territory.  Not too many "warm & runny" members here I guess. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Here's the 1st clue about these type of people like the fellow who started this thread:  They jump on here without introducing themselves & post something just like this fellow did, asking for advice.  At this point we've been taking them at face value.  Then, when they don't get all "sweet, gooey, pat-on-the-back" answers they'd hoped for they go off on the ones that responded.  (flaming)  That's when we usually check the Ip addresses, only I'm doing it sooner now.  You are in no danger of any sanctions as stating your opinion is not an infraction, but more what is expected.  Shoot, if we sanctioned every one on here for stating there opinions it'd be pretty lonely. :Big Grin:  :Cool:

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## pgvoutdoors

My $0.02... I visit this forum on a regular basis, contribute when I can, and have found it a good resource of information. I have tried to stay away from the hot topics such as; pushing new members to the intro. page and harsh responses to new members questions. I try to welcome new members aboard. All this has served me well.

This is the only forum I contribute to so I don't have any real experience in the management of such a forum. If I read a thread I don't like I just go on to another one. If I post a comment and receive a negative response from a person, I just ignore them if I feel it is unjustified. (This is the World Wide Web)

The "Wolf Pack" of regular members and moderators can be harsh and sometimes unreasonable, but these are also some of the best informed and good people I've communicated with.

In my "opinion" I believe that it can be hard to tell the difference between a new member that is just so new to survival training that they ask poor questions or have misconstrued ideas, and someone that is just looking to stir things up.

I have made it clear that I feel some members react too harshly to new members and this has led to many people leaving the forum prematurely. 

For new members I've asked them to get to know the regular members, learn their personalities before jumping ship. I've found that a member may totally disagree with you on one subject and back you up on another one.

The bottom line is that; if you can conduct yourself professional disputes are very rare.  :Smile:

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## tsitenha

Being nice is never going to educate a "numpty", shock therapy may. 
Personally have seen people (on their way to a camp out) going for a "nature call" 10yds off a highway and get turned around. Tired of having to go in after them and being nice and holding hand because...
Have been on some European boards and a vast amount of them really have no concept of wilderness but they will get their backs up if you even suggest common sense acquisition of any pertinent skills that they have read about but never practised except in their deepest dreams.
I have a friend who teaches wilderness living and "survival" each in its own context and the first few days are an extreme eye opener for these "ROMANTICS".
Sarge may be harsh (the bush is harsher) but he ain't far from his reading the intent of these starstruck bushwackers.
Keep on Sarge  :Wink:

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## dbldrew

> Being nice is never going to educate a "numpty", shock therapy may. 
> Personally have seen people (on their way to a camp out) going for a "nature call" 10yds off a highway and get turned around. Tired of having to go in after them and being nice and holding hand because...
> Have been on some European boards and a vast amount of them really have no concept of wilderness but they will get their backs up if you even suggest common sense acquisition of any pertinent skills that they have read about but never practised except in their deepest dreams.
> I have a friend who teaches wilderness living and "survival" each in its own context and the first few days are an extreme eye opener for these "ROMANTICS".
> Sarge may be harsh (the bush is harsher) but he ain't far from his reading the intent of these starstruck bushwackers.
> Keep on Sarge


I disagree, if you drive someone off what exactly are they learning? Dont get me wrong Im not saying we should be all loving and group hugs for all kind of attitude. But the fact of the matter new members are going to join and have big plans to rough it in the wild. And while I agree this kind of behavior can be dangerous, calling them names and insulting them will not dissuade them from going out into the woods, it will only dissuade them form coming back to this site and that doesnt help them or this site at all.

Im also not saying we should patronize stupid ideas and behavior, there is nothing wrong with being blunt with them, just dont let it resort to insults.

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## tsitenha

dbldrew, maybe not as far as name calling other than "numpty" but...

a numpty chooses not to learn, he/she has already some romantic idea that is almost impossible to dislodge and will argue ad infinitum their error or misinterpretation against the logic, experience and dare I say common sense of board members or disregard it completely.

Example: Owl girl:
"I tried to show my friend the right way by pointing out that the sand on the trail she was going had no tracks in it that should have been there by the group that went befor us. She refused to even look. There was another friend with me who agreed with me but the other still wouldnt listen and she just kept going. We went with here till we were far away from where we shoulda been and she got scard realized we were going the wrong way and then let me lead and we got back just befor dark."

just an example, some people can not be reached because they cannot admit that they don't know or the new idea panics them or they just want to be a troll..

To many "survivor shows" that cater to the flash and mirrors instead of being truthful, then the newbie come here or other boards and argue TV flash against reality. 

So far Sarge has an excellent track record.

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## trax

starstruck bushwhackers? man, I like that, I hope I can find an excuse to call someone that sometime soon. Starstruck bushwhackers....just kind of has a ring to it. I bet my Dad even likes that one. But seriously folks, I think pgv has about the best attitude out there,(I know, I'm one of the nasty ones sometimes...heartfelt sigh) thanks for that man.

Still gonna call someone a starstruck bushwhacker, though :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## klkak

Starstruck bushwhackers. Tsitenha, I gotta hand it to you that is a good one. Someday it might have its own "Sticky"

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## crashdive123

Or the name of an outfitter chain........

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## CTracker

*GEezz*, I go away for a little while and look what happens.  :EEK!:

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## trax

> *GEezz*, I go away for a little while and look what happens.


I _know_, it's been chaos here, bloody anarchy, rioting in the streets. I kept saying to myself, if only CTracker would come back, he'd settle everyone down. Thank goodness you're here, bunch of starstruck bushwhackers is what we've got to deal with! Welcome back :Big Grin:

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## nell67

Welcome back CT!

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## tsitenha

Remy, maybe I don't express myself well enough: I don't have your education in prose.

If were me, in Owl girl place (she's to nice) I would have left the other lady go on her merry way after the first attempt to "educate". I no longer care what happens to "numpties" that make their own twisted errors as long as it does not affect me. 
Maybe with a parting word (can I have your car when they don't find you in the morning?  :Big Grin: )

CHB

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## tsitenha

If I am with a group I will stay with the group out of politeness and being social but when decisions of the group or certain individuals recklessly (read unreasonable) endanger my family, my friends or me and if they (the group) can't see the forest for the trees,, well I 'm off and if I do fall then I fall that just a part of being out in the wild.
And as far as they might save my life, I may save their lives, that point is not relevant; I'm not a seer so I can't predict the future.
Do you react to people just because they may do some good or bad to you in the future?
CHB

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## tsitenha

Remy, I think you think to much... 

Now you got me thinking...and that's always bad.

Too many times I have seen some fool go off on a delusional tangent and good people get hurt trying to "help", "guide", "protect" him/her. 

I have a limit to being social, if they go their way even after being advised and it ends wrong.. well it a "SHOCK TO THE GENE POOL"

CHB

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## tsitenha

Now, its your turn to answer, I am trying  :Wink: 
we can keep this going till the mooze come home  :Big Grin: 

CHB

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## tsitenha

I never was accused of being a "human" quite the opposite I am a BREED.

click away :Wink:

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## tsitenha

Thank you, Thank you kindly  :Big Grin:

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## tsitenha

Remy, just for you: my favorite poem: Verlaine

Chanson dautomne

Les sanglots longs
Des violons
De l'automne
Blessent mon cur
D'une langueur
Monotone.

Tout suffocant
Et blême, quand
Sonne l'heure,
Je me souviens
Des jours anciens
Et je pleure;

Et je m'en vais
Au vent mauvais
Qui m'emporte
Deçà, delà,
Pareil à la
Feuille morte.

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## tsitenha

And for those whose french is less able; Verlaine

Autumn Song

The sobbing calls
from the fall's
fiddles' moan
through my breast
languidest
monodrone.

All out of breath
and pale, as
hours fly
my eyes behold
the days of old,
and I cry,

and I'll be gone
to wild winds thrown,
tossed aside
once to, once fro:
like wild winds blow
leaves that died.

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## tsitenha

For me, it doesn't "feel" right, I don't get the same emotion and appreciation. It's like it is a different poem, similar but different.

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## RangerXanatos

I like it cuz when I'z quote it, it makes ma luk sofisticated to all da purty yung girlzz.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   :Big Grin:

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## tsitenha

It give me the same feeling that I get when canoeing down a river in autumn when the leaves are starting to turn, the water is cold and a slight breeze is carrying the last smells of the season. I settle down to a lazy kinda stroke just musing over thoughts of my ancestors and the paths that we shared. Kinda like wanting to know how they felt and what mattered to them, what was important that I can't understand yet..

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## RBB

(Names Changed or Omitted to Protect ME)

A few years ago, Tom, Dan, and I went up to the hunting shack just after Christmas to shoot rabbits, catch fish, and do some snowshoeing.  As the roads are all old corduroy, we took my old GMC pickup.  We had a good time.

The night before we were going to head out we got a ton of snow.  The old GMC started up, but we were pushing snow to the point where it was coming over the hood and it was hard to keep the windshield clear.  We made it about 12 miles when we had to negotiate a hair-pin curve beneath a large cliff.  The cliff caused the snow to drift exceptionally deep.  We didn't make the curve, and landed off in the weeds.  I thought the four wheel drive would get us out okay, but we later discovered the whole area was full of springs.  We were stuck for sure.

We decided to trek back to the shack.  We went about a mile and found that the truck tracks were drifting in.  We returned to the truck and got our snowshoes and sleeping gear.  We decided to take an old road (now a trail) due north - one my g-grandfather'd built about 1900 - as it was a much straighter shot to the shack.

We'd gone about four miles when it warmed up and the snow turned to sleet.  This is in the Saw-Tooth Range, and there is a lot of up and down.  Besides the sleet turning our outerwear into icicles, we were heating up a lot with the exertion of breaking trail.  We'd each take a turn breaking trail for about 20 minutes - then trade off.  It became increasingly obvious that we weren't going to make it back to the shack before nightfall - if at all.  We stopped and made a fire, but with the sleet and snow continuing to fall, we didn't need heat, we needed dry.

I knew that the trail we were on passed fairly close to Crescent Lake.  At the lake was an old roadhouse, built in the 1920s, that had morphed into some kind of resort.  We climbed a ridge to the west of us and through a momentary break in the weather we could see the lake about a half mile off.  We headed in that direction.  It was one of the nastiest longest half miles I've ever done, off ridges, through swamps, and up more ridges and cliffs - all in three plus feet of new snow.  Before we found the roadhouse,  the temperature started to plummet, and we knew we were in serious trouble.

When we got to the roadhouse, there was no one around.  The cabins were all locked up tight, and we could see through the windows that they were heated with propane.  We could also see there were no propane bottles connected to the regulators.

We checked out the roadhouse itself and we could see a big barrel stove inside made from a 50 gallon kerosene drum.  We didn't want to damage the place, but we needed to get inside.

We finally pried open a rear window.  We didn't damage the window, but we bent up the curtain rod.  We got to the main bar area and were overjoyed to find half a cord of dry stacked maple along one wall.  We soon had the stove roaring and after an hour, we started hanging our wet clothes near the stove.

We were surprised to find there were still rooms in the upstairs.  Taking the wool blankets from several beds, I nested in the room the chimney ran through.  That old place made more noise.  Every change of wind started the old place creaking.  The original owner had been a bootlegger of some reputation.  If walls could talk.

In the morning, we threw some more logs in the fire and searched around for something to eat.  We found some ancient oatmeal and it was good - if a bit moldy tasting.  We made sure all our clothes were dry, cleaned up after ourselves as best we could, and left $18 (all we had) on the bar.  

In Minnesota, it is perfectly legal to enter a building if shelter is necessary to sustain life.  You are supposed to leave your name - and we didn't.  We couldn't find a pencil.  We should have done it later, but we never did.

We set out in the direction of the truck, using the road this time.  We reached it just as the county plow truck came along.  I asked the plow driver why they were plowing as the road was not usually open in the winter.  He said someone was logging in the area and had paid to have the road plowed.  He put a chain on the GMC and pulled us out.

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## rebel

Good story.

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## crashdive123

Thanks for the story.

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## nell67

Great story RBB,thanks for sharing!

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## CreekWalker

Great story. Glad you are still here to share it. :Smile:

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## DOGMAN

Is the old roadhouse still around? It sounds like a neat old place to visit! Nice Story

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## RBB

> Is the old roadhouse still around? It sounds like a neat old place to visit! Nice Story


Sad to say - it burnt down last year.  Probably an insurance scam.

The original builders were Ben and Annie Salteur.  They made moonshine and bought illegal furs (from my ancestors - among others).  Ben was a drunken French Canadian and always carried a broom-handle Mauser.  Annie was shanty Irish and she was the brains.  

Annie decided they weren't getting enough for their furs.  She went down to Duluth - which was crawling with newly minted millionaires in those days - and got herself a job as a ladies maid.  Annie watched how the society ladies walked, talked and dressed.  Every autumn the society ladies packed their trunks and headed for New York for the theater season.  That autumn, Annie bought new clothes, packed her trunks (with furs) and headed east with them.  She'd decided on a price for the furs, much more than they'd been getting, and was determined not to take a cent less.

The fur buyer she met in NYC looked at her furs, mumbled about the poor condition and concerns about illegal furs - then offered her four times the price she'd been hoping for.  Annie didn't miss a beat.  She threw a tantrum and demanded double.  They settled in the middle (six times what she'd been hoping to get).

One of my uncles has a 1927 Game Warden magazine with a story about local wardens chasing Ben and Annie in what would have been a high speed chase at that time.  The vehicles traded shots a number of times, but no one was killed.  Ben got a ways ahead, they reached a bridge, and Annie, the furs, and the guns went over the rail and downstream while Ben took off alone.  After a ways, Ben stopped and when the game wardens pulled up beside him, he asked them if anyone had a drink.

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## Sarge47

If you want Survival Stories; here's one.

Exclamation The shocking reality!
Here's the skinny, boys and girls, until you're literally faced with a life or death situation, no one knows for sure what they're gonna do! It's easy to sit inside the safety & comfort of our homes and hit the keys on our computer writing all these words down, or even go out into the woods on our own little solo trips & come home okay...but no one really believes that really bad things can happen to them until it does. The following is quoted from the book "The complete Book of Outdoor Survival" by j. Wayne Fears. This illustrates my point.

"It started out as a typical afternoon squirrel hunt. The three of us were students at Auburn University in Alabama, and we had taken the day off to bag a few squirrels in the nearby Tuskegee National Forest. By the end of the day, two of us sat on the fender of the car, reliving the hunt, squirrel by squirrel. It finally dawned on us that it was a long time past shooting light, and Mike, the third member of the party, had not yet returned to the car. But we didn't worry because Mike was a highly trained and experienced hunter. He was working on his master's degree in forest management and had just recently returned from four years in the Alaskan backcountry.

A half hour passed, it was dark, and still no Mike. I blew the car horn three times. No response. For the next few minutes we blew the horn and shouted, stopping occasionally to listen. We were sure now that Mike was in trouble and began to ask ourselves questions: Had he shot himself accidentally? Could he have had a heart attack? Mike was a believer in hunter safety and was in excellent physical condition, so these possibilities seemed slight. As the reality that Mile was lost sank in, we began an organized search.

It was after midnight when we found him. A wild-looking man broke through a thicket and into the light cast by the searchers' spotlights. It was Mike and he was scared and confused. His clothing was torn to shreds from the waist down, and his legs and arms were bloody from the scratches he had received, The.22 rifle, hunting coat and cap he had taken into the woods with him were gone-where, he did not know. We learned later that his hunting coat contained matches, extra ammunition, a pocketknife, and three squirrels, enough survival gear & food to live comfortably for many days.

Mike needed two weeks to recover fully from his brief but brutal ordeal. He recalled the panic that had struck him at dark when he realized he was lost. He remembered running for long periods of time. He also remembered feeling afraid of the strange people shouting and flashing lights in the woods. Embarrassment, guilt, confusion, and exhaustion only added to his sense of panic and helped cripple his ability to exercise good judgment. Mike, an above-average hunter and outdoorsman, had come face-to-face with a survival situation and had not used his skills.

One of the first reactions to being lost or stranded in the backcountry is fear. It is fear that causes many people to panic soon after realizing they are in a survival situation. It was fear that made Mike run blindly and foolishly discard his equipment."

Remember guys, panic can kill!

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## Sarge47

Survival Story #2.

Here's the 2nd one.

Before I get suspected of only being negative here I want to quote Mr. Fears from the same book I did earlier to show you something positive, if you can call it that!
WILL TO LIVE: "the following story is true. Granted, it is brutal and not even typical of emergency survival situations, but it shows man can survive far more than most of us would expect-if he is determined to live.

"During the week before Christmas, Timothy Moore, then 26, was staying at his cabin in a remote section of San Gorgonio Mountain, north of Palm springs. One afternoon, he was jumped from behind by two men who beat and kicked him mercilessly and then robbed him of $150. Next they handcuffed Moore's arms behind his back, blindfolded him, and took him to a lonely spot in some kind of vehicle.

"The thieves stood Moore on the edge of a cliff and then shot him in the head at point-blank range. Knocked over the cliff by the force of the gunshot, he tumbled 50 yards down to the canyon floor. As if all this were not enough, the thieves fired still more shots. Moore managed to crawl under a rock overhang, but not before being wounded in the arm. Finally, he heard an engine start and then fade off into the distance; the thieves had left Moore for dead.

"Badly wounded, battered, bruised, and stranded far from help, Moore might well have been dead by the end of the day, if he had not been so determined to survive. He was in desert country and still handcuffed, but got to his feet and wandered until he found a dry creek bed. that led him to an old dirt road.

"I just started walking." he said. " I slept under rocks and trees."

"Despite the pain of his injuries, thirst, and hunger, Moore continued to walk for three days until at last he wandered up to a man who was out in his yard cutting wood. by sheer force of will, Moore had managed to cover 40 miles through the desert to safety.

"Moore was treated for gunshot wounds, multiple bruises, dehydration, and exposure. An Official thought it was attitude that brought Moore through, pointing out that he even joked with investigators after his incredible ordeal. But Moore himself summed it up best.

"I was given the best Christmas present a man could have-my life."

I find this to not only be pretty amazing, but humbling as well.

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## Sarge47

Survival Story #3.

Here's a short one that can show what happens when one is properly prepared. Like the two before it, it's from Mr. Fears' book.

"I recall fondly one hunter I helped find in Georgia. He had been lost for two days, and when we found him he had established himself a homestead.In fact, he had built himself such a cozy camp that we used it for an overnight rest before packing out.On the way out, he told us that his "ordeal" had been a ball and he planned to get lost again soon"

Cool, huh?

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## rebel

Where's Mike now?

I remember reading #'s 2 and 3.  Never give up.

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## crashdive123

Changed his name to Adrian and head out into the wilds with just a knife. :Big Grin:

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## Ralbert

Hello Wolves, 
While I was cleaning my old bookmarks I stumbled upon this topic again. 
I stopped posting because I assumed the topic would die out real fast the moment a moderator falsely accused me of being a notorious troll without proof other than sharing a country's IP with someone else... I know The Netherlands is small but c'mon... 
Anyway, I decided to take a look to see if anything more has been posted.


I would like to applaud dblDrew for sharing his opinion despite knowing he would be criticized for it by the wolf pack. That takes a real set of balls around here to go up against the majority. 

However, later on his opinions are classified as 'incorrect' because of the ridiculous troll accusations so I thought the least I could do is post here again and restore his opinions simly to what they are his honest opinions. 





> I know Im in the minority here but I really have no problem with this guys plan. I also really think you guys should lighten up on the insults as well. There is nothing wrong with going out and practicing your survival skills, and that is basically what this guy is doing. Now the safe way to go about it would be having a safety net to make sure when things dont go your way you have plan B to fall back on. 
> 
> But it seems to me that he had a pretty good back up plan and calling him a "Numpty"(idiot) is a bit on the extreme side. (Not a good way to gain new members). Lets cut through the garbage here.
> 
> He is bringing a tent with him
> He is bringing rice with him
> He is bringing pots and pans for cooking 
> He is bringing a Magnesium fire striker for fire (also bow drill)
> He is going to have back up food, phone, matches/lighter, etc in the car
> ...



I know you don't want to accept my opinion that this forum is a little bit too much on the side of uncomfortable for newcomers but please don't take it out on one of your own members for sharing this opinion.

I respect that many of you guys try to warn newcomers about the dangers of survival. I get it, most newcomers are way too uninformed. If I was a regular poster on this forum I would also advice them to prepare more.

However there is a line where advice stops being helpful and starts being just plain rude.

Yes, I didn't gave enough information in the first post.
Yes, I do have a too romantic idea about survival. (_Excuse_ me trying to add a hint of fun)
Yes, I should have used "wild-camping" instead of the emotionally baggaged survival word (which is obviously forbidden for numpties).

But why is it that dblDrew is about the only one on this forum who actually gets to _sift through all my romantic bullsh*t ideas and filters out the relevant things_ while the rest just nitpicks on the previously mentioned romantic nonsense?

Because instead of trying to find sentences that he can easily flame, he's seeking the information - reading between the lines if you will - that will help him give good advice.


Wish you all the best,

Ralbert.

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## crashdive123

So, how is the trip planning coming?  Maybe some of the info in this thread http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=5477 will be useful if you still seek some info.  If not, good luck.

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## crashdive123

Ya know, I just read through the entire thread again.  I guess the best advice I can offer is good luck, because obviously none of the advice that was asked for and given was taken to heart.  Please remember - if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

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## Sarge47

.. for calling you an idiot.  I just went back & reread everything that was posted.  all the early responses were there to HELP you!!! :EEK!:   Then you started getting your panties in a bunch because you didn't like the answers.  Now you finally come back on & post the only guy that agreed with all of your silliness. (MY opinion!)  No, you are NOT an idiot, you are foolhardy, ignorant, hard-headed, uncaring & arrogant.  You don't care for you GF's well-being, or that of the poor SAR folks who might get killed pulling your fat out of the fire.  Look dude, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.  Remember the "Grizzly Man"?  He, too, refused to listen to reason, & not only did he wind up a "hot lunch", his poor GF was drug into it as well.  BTW, we have other groups than just Wolves now, okay? :Cool:

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## klkak

One of two things is going to happen.

He'll get over it

or

He wont

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## crashdive123

.....and when he does, then two other things will happen.

I'll care

or 

I won't.

I know where smart people are placing their bets.

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## dbldrew

> .. for calling you an idiot.  I just went back & reread everything that was posted.  all the early responses were there to HELP you!!!  Then you started getting your panties in a bunch because you didn't like the answers.


That is absolutely incorrect, he was taking to heart the advice given, his last post before the insults started was..

*Alright, the warnings are well understood.  
Its not like we are going into the wilderness without preparation. We are well aware of the need to practice and learn about the subject. 
The reason why our posts probably seem too optimistic is that we factor in that the trip wont happen till like a year from now so weve got quite some time to prepare. 

We will take everything essential and then some with us, keeping it close is logical*
Him stating, the warnings are well understood isnt exactly him getting his panties in a bunch 

He was also listening to the feedback, He was warned about keeping backup supplies close and he agreed with that. Then he gets called an idiot and the rest is history.

Sarge, just out of curiosity how do you feel about people backpacking? Do you feel they should just stay home to be safe? Because obviously what he proposed to do is basically a backpacking trip for a few weeks. If someone joins the forum and is planning a backpacking trip with his GF, would you freak out and give the same You find yourself in a situation where your girl-friend's life is hanging by a thread & you watch her die because you can't get any help! speech? 

Obviously he wasnt a troll, so all you guys did was run off a new member, because he was going camping What a joke.  

Sarge, the job of a moderator is to keep the peace, get rid of trouble makers, keep heated discussions from turning into insults and flame wars, not START the insults and flame wars. Buddy you need to re-evaluate how youre moderating, because running off new members is not what youre supposed to do. /end rant

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## Sarge47

Check your attitude...dude.  I just re-read those posts AGAIN & haven't changed my opinion.  This is the result of much experience from trolls & folks like that in the past.  If my posts can run someone off, how are they going to survive REALLY bad stuff? :EEK!:   Go back & read the 1st 3 pages of posts.  Everybody was trying to help the guy, yet it got a little tough for him because we weren't telling him what he wanted to hear.  I just wish Remy hadn't deleted his posts, they were top-notch. If he gives me permission I can restore them, but that'd be the only way.  Rick said that Ral's IP was the same one that we'd had problems with in the past, & he had the same pattern that others before him had done.  If he wasn't the same people then he should of stayed & proved himself, just as Sgt. Draino did when he was accused of being a police spy. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   And please don't confuse my blunt, "in-your-face" way of speaking with flaming; it's not the same.  We're talking about LIFE or DEATH here, not a walk in the park, so yes, I'm going to be stern! :Cool:

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## nell67

Well said Sarge.

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## Sarge47

I just received a "reported post" via e-mail complaining that Dbldrew's post was "provoking an argument."  I will NOT name the member who complained, but will say this:  "So...?"  I truly believe that oft-times debating issues on this site is probably the best thing that can happen.  You can usually expect an honest answer from the type of person who's not afraid to stand up  to you & speak their mind.  DD was doing just that, & I took no offense, just offered my counter argument; which makes me just as guilty as him.  Besides, I'm Irish, you ought to see our family reunions if you think this is bad. :EEK!:   I respect DD's views, yet disagree; so what?  I'm sure he feels the same way, & now that we both have that out in the open perhaps we can communicate more freely; or perhaps not...time will tell. :Cool:

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## dbldrew

> Check your attitude...dude.  I just re-read those posts AGAIN & haven't changed my opinion.  This is the result of much experience from trolls & folks like that in the past.  If my posts can run someone off, how are they going to survive REALLY bad stuff?  Go back & read the 1st 3 pages of posts.  Everybody was trying to help the guy, yet it got a little tough for him because we weren't telling him what he wanted to hear.  I just wish Remy hadn't deleted his posts, they were top-notch. If he gives me permission I can restore them, but that'd be the only way.  Rick said that Ral's IP was the same one that we'd had problems with in the past, & he had the same pattern that others before him had done.  If he wasn't the same people then he should of stayed & proved himself, just as Sgt. Draino did when he was accused of being a police spy.  And please don't confuse my blunt, "in-your-face" way of speaking with flaming; it's not the same.  We're talking about LIFE or DEATH here, not a walk in the park, so yes, I'm going to be stern!



I reread them and my opinion stands as well, here is the timeline

Post 1  Ralbert states intention and asked a little advice

Posts 3,5,&6 asked for wilderness experience, and how much time his trip will be.

Post 11 Ralbert answers the experience question and answers how long the trip will be, he give a more detailed itinerary of his intentions. 

Post 12, 14, general caution about what ifs and needing backup supplies close enough to use them if something goes wrong.

Post 13 suggests practicing/learning/ taking a coarse 

Post 15 Thanks the posters for the warnings and agrees with Post 12 and 14 about backup supplies close, comments to post 13 that he will have a year to practice the skills. Ends post with a thank you for the warnings.

Post 19 you call him an idiot (numpty) 

Nuff said

 Honestly Sarge, I like the blunt advice you offer, I just think that maybe ease up on the insults, that is the only beef I have with how things went down. 

Also thanks for reading this as just a debate and me not trying to start trouble. 

Now to get back to on topic ish you didnt answer my question about how you feel about people backpacking?

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## Sarge47

that's a vauge, general question.  I think Backpacking is cool, but at what experience level are we talking about here?  Even that is dangerous if two people who are new to all of this go alone, you understand?  There are many factors to consider, which is all part of survival. :Cool: 

Also, I didn't call him a "Numpty", I said he was rapidly moving over into that area.  It was then up to him to show that he wasn't.  Trust me on this, we're being a lot easier on him than the outdoors might be. :Cool:

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## dbldrew

> that's a vauge, general question.  I think Backpacking is cool, but at what experience level are we talking about here?  Even that is dangerous if two people who are new to all of this go alone, you understand?  There are many factors to consider, which is all part of survival.
> 
> Also, I didn't call him a "Numpty", I said he was rapidly moving over into that area.  It was then up to him to show that he wasn't.  Trust me on this, we're being a lot easier on him than the outdoors might be.


Well the experience level does play into it I agree, my guess is you wouldnt suggest that new backpackers first experience would be to hike the whole Appalachian Trail, but start out maybe car camping/ doing short trips. 
The thing here is that they where basically camping, going to 1 location and staying, but with only rice for food (and whatever they caught) I see no problem with that at all, depending on how close to their car they are. 

My thing is this; practicing wilderness survival is a good thing to do.

I believe that..

Learning from a teacher/coarse is good, but not the only way to learn
Learning from reading books is good, but not the only way to learn
Learning from DVDs is good, but not the only way to learn

Practicing your skills under supervision is good, but not the only way to practice
Practicing your skills in your backyard by yourself is good, but not the only to practice 

Practicing what you have learned in a wilderness environment is good, as long as you have the proper safety net (fallback plain, supplies etc). Is there danger in this last example? Sure, but not anymore then a typical backpacking trip, (as long as its planned correctly). 

Do I think that its logical to jump right to the last example with min practice? Not the way that I would do it, and the chance of success isnt very good, but sometimes more can be learned from failure then success, its all about learning and practicing, as long as there is a good safety net in place then a lot could still be learned. 

Here is a hypothetical scenario.

My brother, a friend and me are going off to practice our wilderness skills up north next year. We are going to set up 2 camps, my friend is setting up a typical camp with a tent sleeping bags, food supplies etc. My brother and me will be setting up a second primitive camp, where we will make the shelter, fire by primitive means (bow drill) and hunt and trap for food. We will only have knives clothing and a first aid kit at our site, plus what we make. Now the supplies that are in the tent site (30ish yards away) we are trying not to use, obviously if needed they are there. 

So the safety net is the other camp supplies, 3rd person checking in on us, our family knows our location, and the car is relatively close (15 min walk). Now Im reasonably competent with primitive survival, Im pretty good at making fire by friction, I can make shelters, traps, etc. That being said I get real grouchy after a day or so with out food, so this experiment might only last  3or 4 days before I invade the other camp for food. Now if Im lucky with hunting and trapping maybe it goes a week or 2 or maybe even a month! Yeah right.. anyway is the safety net I have in place (food, tent, extra clothes, matches, water filtration etc) and a car close buy an acceptable safety net when things dont go as planned? Or do you think this is a waste of time and I should just stay home?

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## crashdive123

Dbldrew - if it's an open question for all - you have everything with you (in my book, 30 yards is with you) if you need it.  I do not believe that is/was the case with the original poster of this thread.  I know he said he heard what everybody was saying, but there was no evidence of a plan to do any of that (failure of mission and all).

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## Sarge47

Let's look at the important parts of this post, & I'll give my viewpoint in a non-insulting manner.  

Hello Wolves, 
While I was cleaning my old bookmarks I stumbled upon this topic again. 
I stopped posting because I assumed the topic would die out real fast the moment a moderator falsely accused me of being a notorious troll without proof other than sharing a country's IP with someone else... I know The Netherlands is small but c'mon... (NOTE:  THIS IS SUBTLE FLAMING!  SARGE!)



I would like to applaud dblDrew for sharing his opinion despite knowing he would be criticized for it by the wolf pack. That takes a real set of balls around here to go up against the majority.(AGAIN, ATTACKS US FOR OUR OPINIONS WHILE MAKING DBLDREW THE HERO.  SARGE.) 

However, later on his opinions are classified as 'incorrect' because of the ridiculous troll accusations so I thought the least I could do is post here again and restore his opinions simly to what they are… his honest opinions. 
(I NEVER DOUBTED THAT THEY WERE HIS OPINIONS, WHERE DOES THIS GUY COME OFF POSTING THAT?  SARGE.)


I know you don't want to accept my opinion that this forum is a little bit too much on the side of uncomfortable for newcomers but please don't take it out on one of your own members for sharing this opinion. (AGAIN, SUBTLE FLAMING, ONE-SIDED, & IS TENDING TO PROVOKE DIVISION.  SARGE.)

I respect that many of you guys try to warn newcomers about the dangers of survival. I get it, (REALLY, THEN WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?  SARGE) most newcomers are way too uninformed.(NO, A LOT OF THEM ARE VERY EXPERIENCED.  SARGE) If I was a regular poster on this forum I would also advice them to prepare more. (REALLY?  THEN ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU AGREE WITH THE REST OF US? :Confused:   SARGE.)

However there is a line where advice stops being helpful and starts being just plain rude. (THAT "LINE" IS A MATTER OF OPINION.  SARGE.)

I know you don't want to accept my opinion that this forum is a little bit too much on the side of uncomfortable for newcomers (UH, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT "SURVIVAL HERE, RIGHT?  SARGE) but please don't take it out on one of your own members for sharing this opinion. (AS FAR AS I KNOW THERE ISN'T ANYBODY DOING THAT; IF THERE WAS THEN DD SHOULD COMPLAIN.  SARGE.)

I respect that many of you guys try to warn newcomers about the dangers of survival. I get it,(IF YOU "GET IT" THEN WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?  SARGE.) most newcomers are way too uninformed. If I was a regular poster on this forum I would also advice them to prepare more.(HOW, SINCE, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE SUBJECT?  SARGE.)



Yes, I didn't gave enough information in the first post. (OKAY...SARGE.)
Yes, I do have a too romantic idea about survival. (_Excuse_ me trying to add a hint of fun)(ROMANTIC?  FUN?  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT "SURVIVAL...LIFE OR DEATH, NOT A "ROMANTIC ADVENTURE!  CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NOTHING "ROMANTIC" OR "FUN" ABOUT DEATH, INJURY, OR PAIN?  SARGE.) 
Yes, I should have used "wild-camping" instead of the emotionally baggaged survival word (which is obviously forbidden for numpties).(HOW WOULD THAT HELP?  YOU SAID "SURVIVAL" & THAT'S THE WAY WE TOOK IT.  THIS IS, AFTER ALL, A "WILDERNESS "SURVIVAL" SITE", REMEMBER?  SARGE.)

But why is it that dblDrew is about the only one on this forum who actually gets to _sift through all my romantic bullsh*t ideas(HMMM, IF YOUR "ROMANTIC IDEAS" ARE, AS "YOU" SAY, BULLSH*T, WHY SHOULD WE TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY?  SARGE) and filters out the relevant things(THAT WOULD ALSO BE CALLED "HIS OPINION AS TO WHAT'S RELEVANT_ while the rest just nitpicks on the previously mentioned romantic nonsense?(YOU KEEP TRYING TO RATIONALIZE YOUR "FOOLHARDINESS" WITH THE WORD "ROMANTIC", AS THOUGH THAT SOMEHOW MAKES IT ALL OKAY.  AND WHY DO THINK THAT "DD" IS THE ONLY ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS YOU?  IS IT BECAUSE HE'S THE ONLY ONE TELLING YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?  SARGE.)

Because instead of trying to find sentences that he can easily flame, (HUH?) he's seeking the information - reading between the lines if you will.  (WHY DOES HE HAVE TO "READ BETWEEN THE LINES? WERE YOU HAVING TROUBLE EXPRESSING YOURSELF?  SARGE.) - that will help him give good advice.(SO...HE'S THE ONLY ONE, HUH? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   SARGE)

Please note that there was no flaming/name-calling here, just an honest evaluation of a post.  I did this to demonstrate the way I READ & analyze what's posted &, though my replies might not indicate all of this, they most often contain the conclusion I reach.  BTW, here is Ralf's little PS from post #11: 

[PS: We know following a survival/bushcraft training before our trip is the smart thing to do. _However, it's also less exciting to go somewhere when you know it will be a cakewalk once you get there..._  We believe (/hope) detailed knowledge of all the theory (with some practice @home) should be enough to prepare us for the trip.]

Maybe it's just me, but I see a problem here, does anybody else? :Confused:  :Cool:

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## crashdive123

> Maybe it's just me, but I see a problem here, does anybody else?


Yes I do.  It appears that the only "good" answer is the one that agrees with his position.  If somebody is looking for opinions, that is what they will get.  If they are looking for validation, that may not come quite as easily.

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## Sarge47

Remy has given me permission to restore his posts on this thread.  I have done so as I think the real long one is brilliant!  I also liked a line he used elsewhere when he wrote:  "The wilderness is not a supermarket." Or something to that affect.  Right on! :Big Grin:

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## dbldrew

> Dbldrew - if it's an open question for all - you have everything with you (in my book, 30 yards is with you) if you need it.  I do not believe that is/was the case with the original poster of this thread.  I know he said he heard what everybody was saying, but there was no evidence of a plan to do any of that (failure of mission and all).


Yes please its open for all to comment, if it was just for Sarge I would of used the pm. This hypothetical scenario is not really about the OP, its just a general primitive camping scenario. But we can make similarities I suppose. But to address your comment that I had everything needed and he didnt. We dont really know, he did say he was going to keep the extras in the car then changed it to keeping it close. Now what does close mean? I dont know, it could have been in his tent (acceptable), 30 yards (acceptable) or 2 miles away (not so good). The only reason I posted this scenario is just to try to find where people stand, not really to argue the OP point.

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## klkak

> PS: We know following a survival/bushcraft training before our trip is the smart thing to do. _However, it's also less exciting to go somewhere when you know it will be a cakewalk once you get there..._  We believe (/hope) detailed knowledge of all the *theory* (with some practice @home) should be enough to prepare us for the trip.]
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I see a problem here, does anybody else?


I like these two definitions of the word "theory".

the·o·ry    (thē'ə-rē, thîr'ē)  Pronunciation Key  
n.   pl. the·o·ries 

*1. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture

2. A doctrine, or scheme of things, which terminates in speculation or contemplation, without a view to practice; hypothesis; speculation.*

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## Sarge47

> Yes please its open for all to comment, if it was just for Sarge I would of used the pm. This hypothetical scenario is not really about the OP, its just a general primitive camping scenario. But we can make similarities I suppose. But to address your comment that I had everything needed and he didnt. We dont really know, he did say he was going to keep the extras in the car then changed it to keeping it close. Now what does close mean? I dont know, it could have been in his tent (acceptable), 30 yards (acceptable) or 2 miles away (not so good). The only reason I posted this scenario is just to try to find where people stand, not really to argue the OP point.


I know that you mean well, I really do.  The problem I have with Ralf is that he openly admits here that he views "survival" as "romantic", & "fun".  He also isn't telling everything, as you just pointed out.  I think your scenario is perfectly fine as it keeps safety at the fore-front.  Survival in the woods is basically your knowledge & experienced gained while in the outdoors, used to save your life.  read his PS again & you'll see a problem; he's already sure HE knows what they need to know, & what they don't.  Yet he admits early on to not knowing much.  I would rather he get angry at me and even leave, if that's his answer, than for me to encourage him in what I consider a most foolhardy endeavor.

A further note on your backpacking question:  Awhile back I was PM'd by one of our younger members who is going backpacking over the Appalachian trail who was already doing his homework & asking me what books he might read to help him better prepare.  I knew his experience level and that he would also be with older, more experienced folks as well & didn't have any problem at all to giving him a list of books for him to study.
If I had the health & financial where-withal, I'd be hiking those trails to! :Big Grin:

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## crashdive123

> Yes please its open for all to comment, if it was just for Sarge I would of used the pm. This hypothetical scenario is not really about the OP, its just a general primitive camping scenario. But we can make similarities I suppose. But to address your comment that I had everything needed and he didnt. We dont really know, he did say he was going to keep the extras in the car then changed it to keeping it close. Now what does close mean? I dont know, it could have been in his tent (acceptable), 30 yards (acceptable) or 2 miles away (not so good). The only reason I posted this scenario is just to try to find where people stand, not really to argue the OP point.


Then I guess I will stick with what I said in post #14 which reads in part 


> I'm glad that you've come here to learn and are using other sources to learn. Start out with shorter trips. Bring all of your gear. As your experience level improves you will use less and less of it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a full pack containing everything you need, but not opening it. Keep in mind that survival is not a game. Knowing that you can survive if the need arises can be exilerating though. Good luck. Learn and practice.


  If somebody wants to practice a new skill, improve on a rusty one, test themselves, or whatever the case is - until they have experience in that style of hiking, trekking or camping it is prudent to bring items you may need.  Think about some of the things that some people carry all of the time - just daily life or wandering in the woods ... first aid kit in the car, spare tire, hand gun, life insurance, spare keys, signal mirror, whistle, life vests on your boat ...... the list goes on and on.  We carry these things for the what ifs in life and to give us the confidence that we will be prepared for those what ifs.

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## dbldrew

> I know that you mean well, I really do.  The problem I have with Ralf is that he openly admits here that he views "survival" as "romantic", & "fun".  He also isn't telling everything, as you just pointed out.  I think your scenario is perfectly fine as it keeps safety at the fore-front.  Survival in the woods is basically your knowledge & experienced gained while in the outdoors, used to save your life.  read his PS again & you'll see a problem; he's already sure HE knows what they need to know, & what they don't.  Yet he admits early on to not knowing much.  I would rather he get angry at me and even leave, if that's his answer, than for me to encourage him in what I consider a most foolhardy endeavor.
> 
> A further note on your backpacking question:  Awhile back I was PM'd by one of our younger members who is going backpacking over the Appalachian trail who was already doing his homework & asking me what books he might read to help him better prepare.  I knew his experience level and that he would also be with older, more experienced folks as well & didn't have any problem at all to giving him a list of books for him to study.
> If I had the health & financial where-withal, I'd be hiking those trails to!



Change the word survival to primitive living and most would as well have the same romantic and fun feelings. I think when most people are talking about survival they are really talking about primitive skills, living off the land, being self sufficient, that is a bit romantic. So what. 

I understand he doesnt know much and he probably would of had a very rough time, but as long as he had his supplies to fall back on he would be fine, although probably really sick of eating rice, but again so what if he fails, as long as he has a safety net, he could learn a lot. 

About my scenario, that was basically copied from what Adrian and Brad did, with a few small changes, me using bow drill they used flint and steel, me having a friend in a nearby camp they had a cameraman, otherwise it was basically the same. For me it was a fine plan, for them they are idiots. The main difference is I removed the cockiness they had and went with a more humble approach. Just some food for thought for trying to look past the arrogant cocky attitude of posters and seeing what they are really planning to do.    


As far as backpacking goes, man I would be out there too if I could, with 2 small children my backpacking days are on hold for a while.  :Smile:

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## Ralbert

Sarge, even though I feel flattered that you felt the need to analyze every single sentence of my previous post and comment in screaming CAPS I hope you don't mind me not doing the same ridiculous thing as just highlighting one of your quotes is enough to see the underlying cause here...
{Edit: dang, dblDrew beat me to it}




> Yes, I do have a too romantic idea about survival. (Excuse me trying to add a hint of fun)





> (ROMANTIC? FUN? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT "SURVIVAL...LIFE OR DEATH, NOT A "ROMANTIC ADVENTURE! CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NOTHING "ROMANTIC" OR "FUN" ABOUT DEATH, INJURY, OR PAIN? SARGE.)


Wow, so when you were reading that sentence that was the first thought to pop into your mind? Really? 

So obviously so fail to grasp the concept of anything I've said. My bad for using metaphors when you don’t understand them I guess...
Do you *really* believe that when a newcomer says the word survival he immediately means he wants to put himself in a life or death situation for fun 'n giggles...?  
Seriously, how can you be that black and white? 

You even contradict yourself or is this forum a hundred percent nothing BUT life and death discussions? Because if it is, pardon me for misunderstanding this forum’s intentions. You see, to me there's a gray area, somewhere between sitting comfortable at home and the aforementioned life and death situations. 

Somewhere between those two extremes is my happy place, my _Goldielocks porridge_. Not to hot, not too cold. I even mentioned some of those variables in my second post (!) because they obviously differ from person to person. Yet you still want to believe that I’m going camping *near the gates of hell*.

Only life or death discussions, that's your argument? Gimme a break...

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## crashdive123

> Originally posted by *Ralbert*:
> Do you really believe that when a newcomer says the word survival he immediately means he wants to put himself in a life or death situation for fun 'n giggles...? 
> Seriously, how can you be that black and white?


Ralbert - 31 different people have posted in this thread.  When you came here you asked a question.  Several of the 31 posters asked you clarifying questions so as to be better able to answer your questions and assist you.  Most of those questions were not answered.  Many were trying to turn some of that fuzzy gray into a more defined black and white in order to assist you.  So now, while cleaning out some bookmarks you have come back.  This time to applaud the efforts of one member and to generalize and challenge the efforts of the rest.  You say that you are concerned for Dbldrew - that's cool, but honestly he is doing just fine.  Not everybody here agrees as you seem to think.  We can and do have discussions and disagreements quite often.  So if you are still interested in learning and preparing for your summer trip - how is your planning coming and what is the plan?

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## Sarge47

I read what YOU posted.  You used the word SURVIVAL, remember?  If you have a problem communicating then fix it; otherwise MY opinions are posted & if you don't like them...oh well.

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## crashdive123

> About my scenario, that was basically copied from what Adrian and Brad did, with a few small changes, me using bow drill they used flint and steel, me having a friend in a nearby camp they had a cameraman, otherwise it was basically the same. For me it was a fine plan, for them they are idiots. The main difference is I removed the cockiness they had and went with a more humble approach. Just some food for thought for trying to look past the arrogant cocky attitude of posters and seeing what they are really planning to do.


Dbldrew - I think you may have been reading more into Adrian's posts than were actually there.  He has posted 10 times.  It wasn't until his 8th post that he talked about a "base shelter" which was well into the discussion (or food fight - depending on your point of view).  Nowhere did he say there was a friend operating the camera in a nearby camp.  Nowhere did they say that the base shelter was stocked with any supplies.  It's fine if you want to look past the arrogant cocky attitude of posters, but at least for me, I will not assume things that are not there.

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## dbldrew

> Dbldrew - I think you may have been reading more into Adrian's posts than were actually there.  He has posted 10 times.  It wasn't until his 8th post that he talked about a "base shelter" which was well into the discussion (or food fight - depending on your point of view).  Nowhere did he say there was a friend operating the camera in a nearby camp.  Nowhere did they say that the base shelter was stocked with any supplies.  It's fine if you want to look past the arrogant cocky attitude of posters, but at least for me, I will not assume things that are not there.


Dont misunderstand, Im not really trying to stick up for what they did, they obviously werent forthcoming with enough info to put safety concerns to rest. In fact the info about the cameraman camp didnt even come form them it came form one of their friends Pilot. Its just an example to try to look past all the BS and get to what really matters. Because in the end they did come up with an acceptable plan, they failed but still had the backup plan to make it out fine. 

Here is the quote about the cameramans camp





> I spoke to Brad and Sean last night and asked them lots of questions.  They went to the location (several hundred miles north)  with the intent to identify plants, water and food sources, and test the communication system they hoped to use.  The satellite upload system was found to be unreliable in that area.  The young man who shot and edited the promotional video was so interested in this project that he is now hired to shoot,carry, and edit all the video and pics.  *He will camp nearby (with full camping gear, food, water, etc.. and be able to hike to a vehicle, drive to the nearest community and edit/ upload the daily video.  He has been given strict rules not to interfere in any way except (obviously in an emergency)*

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## trax

OK, kids. This is a serious question. We got Ralbert here and we've had a few from the Netherlands who seemed to be less than on the 'up-and-up' with us. I don't care about that. Ralbert's back and he looks like he wants to stir up some doo-doo, I don't care about that. What I want to know is....where in the Netherlands can you seriously go to practice wilderness survival skills? I mean--no insult intended here---but I can barely find it on the map, and apparently not at all at high tide. Where do you go? What kind of wilderness are you dealing with?

16 million people in an area of 41,000 square kilometers? If you can find some wilderness good on ya'

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## crashdive123

Dbldrew - I think that the information that Pilot posted would have been useful.  The problem is that he posted it one and a half months after Adrian asked his question.  I would think that you would agree that the damage had already been done at that point - and may have changed the discourse of the discussion if it had been revealed up front.

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## Sarge47

You're obviously more interested in "flaming" me than discussing your trip.  I view you as an immature, overly-sensitive individual who doesn't have a grip on reality.  Yes, "Survival" IS Black & White; life or death.  :EEK!:  Yet you seem to have some silly idea that it's all "fun & games".  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Everybody but DD seems to disagree with you.  I'm taking myself out of the equation, so you'll have to feed on somebody else.  However, if you start acting like a Troll then you will be gone.   Good luck in your "Romantic, fun-filled, adventure camping."  BTW, you've given me a great idea for a new thread:  watch for "Starting your own survival school" coming soon. :Big Grin:   Sarge out!

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## klkak

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I reckon someone has to!

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## doug1980

I agree that this forum is a bit harse at times.  A little too much emphasis is put on the exact "wording" of a post and many times the questions do not get answered.  Instead they are told how dumb their idea or view of "survival" is.  I also feel that some here, even if they are very knowledgable and skilled, are a bit concieted about it.  No need for pissing contests here in my opinion.  However, I am glad those people are here, they all serve a purpose.  People like sarge, despite his roughness and to the point attitude, are very important on a site such as this.  I take the more subtle approach with most things but many times that just won't get through to noobs, that's where sarge comes in.  We all have different opinions about what "survival" is and means.  We also have different ways of getting our point across, and who cares which way is better as long as it works.  The skilled "survivalists", "bushmen" or whatever you want to call them feel the need to educate and prevent a life or death scenario from happening to newbies, and that's exactly what this forum is and does.  So to the noobs, like me, sit down, shut up and listen.  Don't get all butt hurt the truth always hurts and you will be thankfull that people here didn't sugar coat it.

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## skunkkiller

have someone fire rubber band at your char cloth while you try to catch a spark that is like trying to do it in the rain and try it in the cold with num fingers it is not easy.

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## dbldrew

> Dbldrew - I think that the information that Pilot posted would have been useful.  The problem is that he posted it one and a half months after Adrian asked his question.  I would think that you would agree that the damage had already been done at that point - and may have changed the discourse of the discussion if it had been revealed up front.


I know and you are right they should of provided the info from the get go. Honestly I dont have a problem at all with how it went down with Adrian and Brad. Here is why I posted that.

Now I may be way off base here, but I think the reason that some of the new members are treated so harshly, is because people here are fearful that they are just going to be another Adrian and Brad. So I think the posters here are a little to quick to jump down their throats. If Adrian and Brad never posted on this site I would bet the discussion with Ralbert would have gone much smoother. So here is the thing with the worst posters (Adrian and Brad) this board has seen in regards to arrogant, cocky, foolishness, and dangerous activities, in the end even they ended up with a plan that had a safe backup plan. 

So just dont be so quick to jump down new posters throats in fear of the next Numpty, even numptys can put together a safe plan. Lets keep them around long enough to steer them down the safe path. If we drive them off what are we teaching them?

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## crashdive123

I don't think (or at least hope) that anybody wants to drive anybody off.  I think that most just respond to what they are given.  It seems that when some of the newer folks respond to the questions they are asked, then they get more help than they probably could have imagined.  This forum is not unlike encounters that we may have on a daily basis.  We meet all sorts of people and interactions will vary according to personalities.  I do understand what you are saying though.

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## crashdive123

> Snif snif snif...i like you dbldrew.


Now that's just wrong. :Big Grin:

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## nell67

This just made me think about the buck goat out in the pasture sniffing the doe's butt's and running around with his upper lip stuck out,that dudes gonna drown in a thunderstorm... :EEK!:

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## SARKY

I really didn't want to put my 2 cents in.... but here goes.
We all have reasonable expectations.... now to explain.
As people with a great deal of knowledge and experience as well as those of us who are instructors, we tend to ask a lot of questions of our "students" so as to tailor our training or response to them. This is for their benefit....I don't like boring my students with knowledge they already have. Like wise I fully expect my "student" to answer the questions posed to them as fully and truthfully as possible. Evading or avoiding my questions doesn't work (former SERE Instructor). As I get the whole picture here questions were asked of the thread bearer from numerous people with little or no response. How would anyone expect to get useful information from someone without giving them ALL the who, what, and where fors? Unfortunately this is a reoccuring theme in many "what would you do?" threads. And yes they are asked dozens of questions to claify the situation. That is reasonable!
Well that is my 2 cents.

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## Sarge47

> So just dont be so quick to jump down new posters throats in fear of the next Numpty, even numptys can put together a safe plan. Lets keep them around long enough to steer them down the safe path. If we drive them off what are we teaching them?


...at what you just wrote.  No one started out jumping down Ralbert's "throat".
I'm NOT the type of person to tippy-toe on eggshells for fear of hurting somebody's "itty bitty feewings", as Beo once said.  The interpetation of that is in the mind of the person being responded to.  However, once somebody shows that they don't want to hear answers that they came on here asking, then I get stern. We're talking Survival..Life or Death", not playing games.  I gotta ask you this, DD, were you ever in the military?  How many on here that are former Marines remember what happened to them when they 1st climbed off that bus?  Remember those painted footprints on the concrete?  How long were you required to stand there under the hot, blazing sun?  Did it teach you anything?  And if it was so bad why are you proud of what went through back then today?  I didn't ask about the Rangers because I don't know that much about them.  What about "hell week" in the Navy Seals?

DD, people choose to stay or leave because of "intestinal fortitude".  Some have it & some don't.  Whining & crying is a "tell".  It shows the weakness of a person, & that reveals an area that requires strengthening. Understand?  Run people off?  I just checked the "Intro" section & found that, since Ralbert left we've had over 230 new members join.  Does that sound like we're running people off?  Answer me this, what is your most important piece of Survival equipment?   :Confused:

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## edr730

Ralbert, there are many places you can go to survive on only your rice if you want to. My way to do it was to pack in a case of beer without food....sometimes the turtles ate our nights catch and we ended up eating tiny perch....no biggie. Just don't go to a place where it is thirty miles to the nearest house. Seven miles would be fine for you. Make it summer time, you get wet, don't know how to dry off, you'll survive and have a good time. Just go when the fish are biting. Take a compass.  Go to the mountains, the north woods...doesn't matter. Just don't make mount Everest your first quest is all. Know how to get out before you go.

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## Sarge47

Awhile back, the esteemed Cody Lundin, author of the Survival book:  "98.6 Degrees:  The Art Of Keeping Your A$$ Alive"  was kind enough to take time out of his busy schedule to answer a question by another Mod; Rick. The entire e-mail is posted elsewhere on this site, as well as placed in my Blog along with Rick's review of Cody's book.  While re-reading it, something caught my attention. It's been asked why I view "Survival" as "Life or Death."  Note what Cody Lundin writes here:

"The questioner rightly relates that boiling water in his metal cup is not a fine or complex motor skill but creating his mongo fire is, and I talk about this in 98.6. Fire requires many variables such as an ignition source equal to or better than the skill level of the lighter, dry fuel, a safe place to build, protection from the weather if its crappy outside, constant adjustment, etc. The entire principal of the book in dealing with hypo and hyperthermia is to use clothing and water to thermo regulate core body temperature, simple gross motor options that wont make the news or the Discovery Channel. (If you have forgotten that you will be scared sh*tless during a survival scenario, and what will happen to your ability to perform even basic skills, re-read the fear chapter) If you are properly dressed for the elements, you dont need the fire for the statistical three day scenario, (usually much less), much less the need to drink hot water to fend off hypothermia. The book is based of course upon my opinion, but also on the experience of being with hundreds of students for many years from all different skill levels deep in the back country in all climates and weather. As I write this it is raining and blowing at about 30 miles per hour with 45 mile per hour gusts, not very fun mongo fire weather. The vast majority of my students, when they enroll in my classes to train, dont know sh*t about building a fire, even if they think they do. My responsibility as an instructor is to deliver the most razor sharp SIMPLE truth as I see it, and I realize from direct experience that many people, even with some training, will choke when trying to light a fire, which again, is a serious, serious complex and fine motor skill, especially when someone is cold and scared and looking at a loved ones worried face. This is not a game. Survival situations by nature will kill you and those you love if not mitigated. Its not the dumb sh*t stuff you see on TV and read about in desperate outdoor magazines that wish to sell another copy. Proper clothing is the cake, fire is icing, and drinking heated water are candles. If you had to choose one out of the three, which would you choose when threatened with a cold weather survival scenario?"

So it looks like I'm in good company.  I'd rather be thinking along Cody's lines than that of someone without much experience.

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## dbldrew

> ...at what you just wrote.  No one started out jumping down Ralbert's "throat".
> I'm NOT the type of person to tippy-toe on eggshells for fear of hurting somebody's "itty bitty feewings", as Beo once said.  The interpetation of that is in the mind of the person being responded to.  However, once somebody shows that they don't want to hear answers that they came on here asking, then I get stern.


You see I have no problem if someone is planning something stupid and dangerous and is ignoring the warnings (Adrian and Brad) for them to be treated harshly. But that isnt the case with Ralbert.  

Alright, the warnings are well understood.
Its not like we are going into the wilderness without preparation
We are well aware of the need to practice and learn about the subject. 
We will take everything essential and then some with us, keeping it close is logical
I thank you guys for warning us how not to end up like 2 corpses in some foreign forest

Im sorry Sarge but those quotes from Ralbert are proof that he WAS listening to the advice given, he WAS heeding the warnings. He WAS moving down the safe path that we all wanted him to go. But then some insults where thrown and the rest was history. My point was he wasnt the next Adrian and Brad and shouldnt have been treated like he was. 




> We're talking Survival..Life or Death", not playing games.


Yes we are, and when members are planning something dangerous and are ignoring advise and warnings then they should be treated harshly. But again Im going back to my previous quotes as proof that wasnt the case with Ralbert.

 There should be a certain amount of respect that is automatically given to your fellow Man, and Im not talking about earned respect, Im talking about common courtesy. We are mostly all adults here; this is not how people behave. Ralbert should have been treated with respect (common courtesy) until he proves he doesnt deserve it.  




> I gotta ask you this, DD, were you ever in the military?


No I never served. 




> DD, people choose to stay or leave because of "intestinal fortitude".  Some have it & some don't.


Sarge this isnt the military, this isnt some personal goal, or right of passage here, this isnt a test of intestinal fortitude this is an internet forum. If people dont like the members they will do a google search to find another forum, and that has nothing to do with someones fortitude. 




> Whining & crying is a "tell".  It shows the weakness of a person, & that reveals an area that requires strengthening. Understand?


When adults have to resort to insults rather then debating, what kind of tell is that?




> Run people off?  I just checked the "Intro" section & found that, since Ralbert left we've had over 230 new members join.


How many are posting? How many read the nonsense and decide this isnt the place for them and join somewhere else? Maybe all of them maybe non of them, who knows. 




> Answer me this, what is your most important piece of Survival equipment?


My brain

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## Sarge47

I respectfully disagree with your opinions, although not your right to have them.  I once fell into the same trap of arguing with another member over TBWN, & don't want to do that again.  My opinions/viewpoints/conclusions are posted & I stand by them.  I have nothing further to say on the subject with you as it's become obvious that you & I are never going to agree here. :Cool:

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## dbldrew

We will agree to disagree then   :Big Grin:

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## trax

> We will agree to disagree then


I disagree, you'll just have to continue disagreeing until you agree..klkak...kick that horse again  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

Perhaps I am the only one to whom it is clear that this forum needs guidance on it's future direction.

I feel Chris needs to express his vision of the future direction of the forum, and report on how his original vision for the forum, as manifested, or failed to come into being.

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## crashdive123

Don't you think that forums evolve?  As people and personalities come and go the tenor and tone of the forum changes.  Remember when Tahyo and Bragg were talking about BBQ (and we were all drooling on our keyboards).  What's the saying - the only thing constant is change itself?

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## Sourdough

> Don't you think that forums evolve?  As people and personalities come and go the tenor and tone of the forum changes.  
> Remember when Tahyo and Bragg were talking about BBQ (and we were all drooling on our keyboards).  What's the saying - the only thing constant is change itself?



Nothing: I just feel someone needs to hold the vision. And be able to say this is or is not congruent with the vision. Maybe his vision is that in two years all of the new threads will be introductions, seems that way some days now.

So the forum will be: Introduction and then: Sorry: all answers are in: Search, thank you for coming.

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## crashdive123

Not if we don't allow it to become that way.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is up to the members to guide the flow of the forum.  If somebody starts posting bullcarp, they will and should be challenged on it.  I think the "vision" has been laid out in the forum headings. Introductions?  I guess I'm guilty of that.  I ask once.  If they do one fine, if not...that's up to them.  We've got members that are interacting with others that, for reasons of their choosing have not done an intro.  I have, when able offered answers to their questions, as have most others.  If a question is asked, or a comment is made by somebody - anybody where I do not have enough info to provide an answer or to put much stock in their answer.......I'll ask - or ignore.  I know that some get a might irratated with repeating answers while others don't.

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## dbldrew

> I disagree, you'll just have to continue disagreeing until you agree..klkak...kick that horse again


Fine fine fine.. Sorry Sarge, but Trax said we have to continue debating until one of us is swayed be the other, considering the stubbornness of both involved here, we could be at it for a while Im going to need a nap first   :Wink:

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## Sarge47

> Fine fine fine.. Sorry Sarge, but Trax said we have to continue debating until one of us is swayed be the other, considering the stubbornness of both involved here, we could be at it for a while… I’m going to need a nap first


Tell you what, let's just you & me agree to disagree with TRAX disagreeing with us agreeing to disagree...agreed? :Confused:  :EEK!:  :Big Grin:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## dbldrew

> Tell you what, let's just you & me agree to disagree with TRAX disagreeing with us agreeing to disagree...agreed?


Yes I completely disagree errr I mean I agree that I disagree, that we are not in disagreement on agreeing I dont know what I mean, Ill get back to you after another nap

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## Ralbert

Thank you for your advice Edr730. Yes. I was planning on going somewhere warm. (I did say "summer vacation" in my first post by the way) Going on a first time wildcamping/backpacking trip in the middle of the winter for some reason didn't seem like a smart idea to me. ;-)




> people choose to stay or leave because of "intestinal fortitude".  Some have it & some don't.


I honestly don't see what intestinal fortitude has anything, even remotely, to do with getting flamed and being falsely accused of being a troll.

I came here for help, acting humble and enthusiastic, calling you guys pro's, thanking the people who replied, admitting I have little survival experience and asked certain specific questions. What did I get in return? Only the desire to label me as a noob as fast as possible. As proven by your first response:



> we'll then decide if you're a Wolf or a Numpty, or TheFreakinBear sneakin' in to "Jack more data!!


You are right about one thing though, I acted overly sensitive, in fact, I still am. Yeah I admit that one of my character flaws is that I don't like being flamed when it's uncalled for. Especially considering a forum like this should have a predominant high population of grown-ups.

I've been on the internet since it's (commercial) birth, including many, many forums. Till now, not once have I seen a moderator acting *exactly* like the type of person he's supposed to keep in check. 

I don't question your survival skills Sarge, you most definitely *rock* in the wilderness, but there's a big difference between knowing the knowledge and being able to teach it.

Anyway I'm off, all the best
Ralbert.

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## Sourdough

Sounds like everyone is complete......lock this thread quick....be for someone changes their mind.

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