# General > General Chat >  Congresswoman Shot

## Ken

Rep. Gabby Giffords (D - Arizona) was shot in the head this afternoon at a speaking event.  Three of her staffers also shot.  On FOX News now.

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## Ken

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677

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## crashdive123

Changing the channel now.  Hopefully they caught or will catch the SOB for this senseless criminal act.

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## Ken

Her Congressional website:  http://giffords.house.gov/contact/

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## Ken

FOX Update: 12 people shot.

*GUNMAN IN CUSTODY!*

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## Trabitha

Oh no...
I don't care if I don't agree with someone's political views...how can someone just walk up and SHOOT another person for what really amounts to nothing???  It's beyond me.  :Frown:

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## Ken

The Death Penalty is in order for this one.  Nobody, NOBODY has the right to act as this gumnan did.  I don't care WHAT the "justification" is.

Sad thing is, a newly elected Congresswoman and many other people have been harmed (hopefully not killed) by this senseless act.

And watch......... the anti-gun lobby will capitalize on this for their own agenda.

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## Trabitha

> And watch......... the anti-gun lobby will capitalize on this for their own agenda.


Yeah...not looking forward to THAT.

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## Justin Case

wow,,,,,,  just wow,,

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## Justin Case

> The Death Penalty is in order for this one.  Nobody, NOBODY has the right to act as this gumnan did.  I don't care WHAT the "justification" is.
> 
> Sad thing is, a newly elected Congresswoman and many other people have been harmed (hopefully not killed) by this senseless act.
> 
> *And watch......... the anti-gun lobby will capitalize on this for their own agenda.*





> Yeah...not looking forward to THAT.


Sad but true,, they dont realize he could have just as easily driven a truck through the crowd,,,  They will surly blame the gun and not the shooter  :No:

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## crashdive123

> And watch......... the anti-gun lobby will capitalize on this for their own agenda.


You know they will.  For me, it's one more reason for law abidding citizens to be armed.  Maybe this could have been stopped very quickly.

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## Ken

> You know they will. For me, it's one more reason for law abidding citizens to be armed. Maybe this could have been stopped very quickly.


I have little doubt that the toll would have been much lower if just one of the majority of our forum members had been there.

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## Justin Case

> I have little doubt that the toll would have been much lower if just one of the majority of our forum members had been there.


surly there were cops there ????  it must have happened to fast for them to respond,,

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## Trabitha

I'm confused though.  Aren't all congress people supposed to have secret service?  Where the heck were THEY?  How can someone with a gun, get THAT close to her, not only get a SHOT off, but hit 12 of her staff??  Is it just me...or did Secret Service totally mess up?

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## Camp10

Have the media blamed Glenn Beck yet?

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## Ken

> surly there were cops there ????


Maybe not.  Besides, I prefer to rely on myself rather than hope that a LEO is close by.

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## Ken

> I'm confused though. Aren't all congress people supposed to have secret service? Where the heck were THEY? How can someone with a gun, get THAT close to her, not only get a SHOT off, but hit 12 of her staff?? Is it just me...or did Secret Service totally mess up?


Only the Speaker has personal security.

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## Ken

> Have the media blamed Glenn Beck yet?


Not yet.  I'm sure someone will try to make that connection.

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## crashdive123

> surly there were cops there ????  it must have happened to fast for them to respond,,


Maybe not.  I've been to dozens of events where my Congressman has been present where there was no law enforcement or security.  He and I have had several conversations at various venues.  Each and every time, I was carrying a concealed weapon, as I'm sure many others were as well.

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## Justin Case

> Maybe not.  Besides, I prefer to rely on myself rather than hope that a LEO is close by.


I was just talking about reaction time,,  I doubt a citizen would have been able to react to such a thing any faster than police,,,  just a comment,,

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## Trabitha

> Only the Speaker has personal security.


How sad.  :Frown:  
Yeah...I'm waiting to hear how they spin this now.  Ugh.

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## Justin Case

Its Glen Becks Fault !  

(just joking,, lol)

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## Ken

> I was just talking about reaction time,, I doubt a citizen would have been able to react to such a thing any faster than police,,, just a comment,,


That assumes that a police officer was there.  And THAT is what I"m not betting on.

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## crashdive123

> I was just talking about reaction time,,  I doubt a citizen would have been able to react to such a thing any faster than police,,,  just a comment,,


Depends.  I'd be willing to bet that I could evaluate a threat and deploy my weapon as fast as most LEO's.

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## Justin Case

yes, no cops,,, wow
CNN just said NO police were seen,,,,     Dang,  that seems kinda dumb,,,

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## crashdive123

NPR is reporting that she has been killed.

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## Ken

FOX is mentioning reports that she has pased away.

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## Ken

"Multiple Fatalities."

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## crashdive123

> yes, no cops,,, wow
> CNN just said NO police were seen,,,,     Dang,  that seems kinda dumb,,,


Maybe in hindsight, but I'll bet that most, when they are in their home town don't have security.

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## Ken

The late Congresswoman's husband is a former Navy Captain and a NASA shuttle pilot.

This is so sad.

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## Camp10

It looks like many sources are saying 6 dead including the congresswomen.

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## crashdive123

Flipping through the channels I heard one report that they had somebody in custody, but I havn't heard it repeated.

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## Justin Case

> Flipping through the channels I heard one report that they had somebody in custody, but I havn't heard it repeated.


CNN said that too.

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## crashdive123

FOX NEWS just reported that there is one report that bystanders tackled the gunman, and that he was in custody.  They have not been able to confirm it yet with LEO.

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## crashdive123

> CNN said that too.


That's where I heard it.  I'm flipping through several news channels.

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## Ken

FOX reports that armed security was present and returned fire.  Gunman is in custody according to several outlets.

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## Pal334

Horrible. I agree, although there may be a political difference, shooting an elected official is not the way things should be done. The rarity of this type of incident is what sets us apart from much of the world

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## Justin Case

> That's where I heard it.  I'm flipping through several news channels.


yeah, he in custody..
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0824535020110108

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## Justin Case

CNN is now saying there are conflicting reports on whether she was killed or not,

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## Ken

CNN.  Certainly Not News.

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## Justin Case

> CNN.  Certainly Not News.


Faux....... lol

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## Justin Case

Now, CNN is confirming she was killed (again)

FBI :Gunman, 21 years old

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## crashdive123

CNN also reporting that the guy in custody is 21 years old.

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## Ken

FOX source now reports she is still alive in critical condition.

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## Ken

> CNN also reporting that the guy in custody is 21 years old.


Hope he doesn't make it to 22.

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## crashdive123

CNN is back to not sure.

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## Winnie

Watching CNN over here, Congresswoman is in surgery.

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## crashdive123

Spokeswoman for the hospital says the Congresswoman is in surgery, was shot in the head, is in critical condition.  Nine other gunshot victims are being treated at that same hospital.

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## Ken

Praying for a complete recovery for all of the victims.

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## your_comforting_company

> Each and every time, I was carrying a concealed weapon, as I'm sure many others were as well.


 
That's illegal here. No weapons at public "gathering" events.

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## Ken

> That's illegal here. No weapons at public "gathering" events.


Smart.  They very place they're needed most.

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## crashdive123

FOX reporting that police are looking for a possible second shooter.  Police reporting 19 shot, 5 killed, Congresswoman in surgery.

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## Ken

From: US Capitol Police [uscp90176@alert.house.gov]
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 3:16 PM
To: All House Staff
Subject: Message from the U.S. Capitol Police

Federal, state and local law enforcement authorities in Arizona are investigating a shooting in Tucson, Arizona in which Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was shot. Multiple others were shot as well. Congresswoman Giffords has been transported to a local medical facility with serious injuries. The suspect is in custody. No further details on the motive or other victims are available at this time.

The U.S. Capitol Police are directly involved in this investigation. As more information is developed, it will be provided. In the interim, all Members and staff are advised to take reasonable and prudent precautions regarding their personal security.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

FOX is saying she is remarkably alive. Only 5% of victims shot in head survive.

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## Winnie

Reuters saying 18 shot, 6 killed including a Fed Judge John Roll

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## Ken

Now some talking head on FOX is surmising that the shooter must have used a fully automatic weapon to have shot so many people.

FOX is also reporting a federal judge was killed in the incident.  Judge John Roll.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

FOX saying 19 and also that John Roll (Fed. Judge) was killed.

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## Ken

You reading over my shoulder, Poco?

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> You reading over my shoulder, Poco?


No


Now saying that the shooter is a "Possible afghan vet"

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## Ken

> No


Did you just take my beer?

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> Did you just take my beer?


Too early to drink.

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## Winnie

> Did you just take my beer?


Sorry, that was me :Blushing:

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## Ken

> Sorry, that was me


I knew it..........

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Shooter is a Jerry Laughner.(sp?)

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Sorry, that was me


 You might be disappointed, when you realize how weak the beer is, over here. LOL

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## Ken

> Too early to drink.


I ain't supposed to dring coffee any more.  Or tea.  Or cola.  Or hot chocolate/cocoa.  Or orange/grape/berry juices.  Or even draft beer.

However, bottled beer (don't ask me why) ain't on the "no-no" list.  So.........

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## Winnie

> You might be disappointed, when you realize how weak the beer is, over here. LOL


Not to worry, it's a bit late for any strong stuff! :Whistling:

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## Justin Case

small child died at hospital,,,,  tragic ,

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## Ken

Chief Doctor reports one dead - a child. 5 others serious condition, 5 in surgery. All others stable.

Doctor "very optimistic" about Congresswoman's recovery.

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## Winnie

Oh, just to cheer everyone up...... There's already been talk about gun legislation!

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## Ken

Obama news conference in 5 minutes.  Hold your breath.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Jerry Loughner 22, WM is who they are saying the shooter is... also a 2nd person arrested, but not confirmed as of yet. A 9 Year old girl is dead, and 5 dead..unsure if the girl is included in that total.

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## BENESSE

> *FOX reports that armed security was present and returned fire*.  Gunman is in custody according to several outlets.


Despite of which all the carnage happened!?
It was their _job_ to avert something like this or at least minimize it. And a 22 yr. old walks in and wreaks this kind of damage?  Sorry...someone somewhere needs to be roasting on a spit.

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## BENESSE

And IMHO, the argument shouldn't be about the citizens being armed but LE doing the job they are paid to do.

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## Ken

*Loughner: What a nut!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhAx8WzNJT0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uRjwPWaxiY

"My Final Thoughts"  - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4

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## BENESSE

Sounds like a few people we banned here.

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## Batch

> Sorry...someone somewhere needs to be roasting on a spit.



Yeah, the shooter. Lets not start screaming for other peoples heads or guns.

Guns are allowed at events like this. They are illegal at meetings of the legislative body.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Yes and Big Brother IS watching...



> Adding comments has been disabled for this video.


I don't believe that ONLY 324 views of that video either.

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## Pal334

If that is the same guy, he is very strange.

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## BENESSE

> *Yeah, the shooter.* Lets not start screaming for other peoples heads or guns.
> *
> That goes without saying!*
> 
> Guns are allowed at events like this. They are illegal at meetings of the legislative body.


I'd like to know why LE wasn't more effective. Wouldn't you?

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## Pal334

> And IMHO, the argument shouldn't be about the citizens being armed but LE doing the job they are paid to do.


B, it is also based on what the "protectee" will allow. Some do not allow "close protection". In many cases the congress people do not have any level of personal protection.

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## your_comforting_company

None of that made any sense.. That's like saying that all poor people live below the poverty level.. so if you live below the poverty level you are poor.

WELL DUH!

and some of his conclusions are just really way out there.

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## your_comforting_company

And he can't spell conscious... Maybe he should have stayed in college!
or the past tense of happen.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Obviously a disturbed individual. Scary how far "out there" he is. His myspace page is down.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> Website:http://Myspace.com/fallenasleep
> About Me:
> 
> My name is Jared Lee Loughner!
> Hometown:Tucson
> Country:United States
> Schools:I attended school: (Lists them But I removed them)
> Interests:My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!
> Movies*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*)
> ...


Yeah Mein Kampf, and Communist Manifesto among a bunch of fiction books. Plus I'm not sure how Literate this guy was. Literate maybe...lucid no.

.... Now they are saying that someone in the crowd returned fire at the shooter.

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## BENESSE

> B, it is also based on what the "protectee" will allow. Some do not allow "close protection". In many cases the congress people do not have any level of personal protection.


I was responding to what Ken posted:
*FOX reports that armed security was present and returned fire*.
Isn't ANYone curious about WHY these guys weren't more effective against a 22 yr. old nut?

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## Batch

> B, it is also based on what the "protectee" will allow. Some do not allow "close protection". In many cases the congress people do not have any level of personal protection.


I view law enforcement, as it relates to violent attacks, as investigators. A truly violent attack will be over in the vast majority of cases before an officer can arrive.

I don't know enough about the shooter(s) or the security set up yet to draw conclusions. But, I know that I am not going to offset the blame on a security officer. I'll keep the full blame of the crime on the criminal.

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## BENESSE

> I view law enforcement, as it relates to violent attacks, as investigators. A truly violent attack will be over in the vast majority of cases before an officer can arrive.
> 
> I don't know enough about the shooter(s) or the security set up yet to draw conclusions. But, I know that *I am not going to offset the blame on a security officer. I'll keep the full blame of the crime on the criminal*.


The two aren't mutually exclusive, Batch.
Of course, the criminal is to blame...followed by questions about WHY security (that was apparently present)  wasn't doing its job.
What am I missing here, someone help me please?!

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## Pal334

B, it is the level of proximaty to the protectee. Maybe it would be best to equate this to police in a mall. In the event of a disturbance they have to sort out who is who before they can act. In this case, there was probably a relatively large crowd, the police would typically not be near the center. When the shot (s) were fired by the bad guy, the police could not just start firing indiscriminately. They have to identify the target, and then as the opportunity presented it self (a clear line of fire and no or minimal people in the background) they could return fire. And remember , this is happening without notice in a split second with a panicy crowd.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> The two aren't mutually exclusive, Batch.
> Of course, the criminal is to blame...followed by questions about WHY security (that was apparently present)  wasn't doing its job.
> What am I missing here, someone help me please?!


B this is a picture of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald.... who was surrounded by police officers. Sometimes you just can't do anything in time. Just look at the expression on the mans face to the left.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## BENESSE

OK, I understand.
So are we saying that if most people in the crowd were armed, then (we're guessing) someone close to the shooter would've been able to act fast and take him out before he did anything?
I am not challenging, just trying to follow the logic.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> OK, I understand.
> So are we saying that if most people in the crowd were armed, then (we're guessing) someone close to the shooter would've been able to act fast and take him out before he did anything?
> I am not challenging, just trying to follow the logic.


Well at least less might have been hurt. UA Hospital had 10 people taken there, 1 died a 9 year old girl. They are also reporting 5 people dead(6 if that girl is one not counted in that group) If you have ever seen a "Protective detail" there are those that surround the protectee, and others that are not part of this detail, instead being scattered throughout the area. Also it would depend if there were a clear shot at the assailant.

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## grrlscout

It being Arizona (we are a pretty pro-gun state), I wouldn't be surprised if many people in the area -- if not in the crowd -- were armed at the time.

It's an example that demonstrates weaponry isn't the end-all be-all of defense -- just an element. Intelligence, observation, experience, and awareness are equally important.

OTOH, there's the fact that sometimes, there's just not a darn thing you can do. 

Just my .$02 *shrug*

The whole thing is just sad, tragic, infuriating, and other inadequate words.

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## Justin Case

That guy sounds like he spent a lot of time listening to Alex Jones and on Infowars...

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## panch0

Oh man This is the first I heard of this. Crazy world and people nowadays..

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## BENESSE

> It being Arizona (we are a pretty pro-gun state), I wouldn't be surprised if many people in the area -- if not in the crowd -- were armed at the time.
> 
> *It's an example that demonstrates weaponry isn't the end-all be-all of defense -- just an element. Intelligence, observation, experience, and awareness are equally important.*
> 
> OTOH, there's the fact that sometimes, there's just not a darn thing you can do. 
> 
> Just my .$02 *shrug*
> 
> The whole thing is just sad, tragic, infuriating, and other inadequate words.


That's exactly what we in NYC are being encouraged to do. Also, "if you see something, say something"...which is precisely what averted a major disaster in Times Square just recently.

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## crashdive123

JIC - I've deleted your post.  If you insist on injecting politics might I suggest http://www.tvally.com/

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## Justin Case

> JIC - I've deleted your post.  If you insist on injecting politics might I suggest http://www.tvally.com/


I wasnt injecting politics,,  was stating a fact,, she was on that map,,  meaning this guy may have been crazy enough to take that seriously,

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## Trabitha

I lived RIGHT up the road from that Safeway just a few years ago.  I don't ever remember hearing or seeing anyone carrying.  Just sayin'.  It's never really cold, so if someone has a gun on them,(and yes, I am familiar with what it looks like.) you're quite likely to see it.
So I have a very hard time believing that crowd was full of armed spectators that didn't do anything.  Just saying.  It's simply not an area of town that you feel threatened enough to walk around armed.  

Secondly, they've disclosed that this kid had a record and has had multiple issues with the school he was attending in Pima county.  He also tried to join the military and was rejected.  I think we all know that there are very few things that will get you rejected from joining the military.  Dude was unstable.  If there are going to be any regulations on gun ownership, maybe they should check into known mental instability.  THIS dude had just that.

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## BENESSE

> If there are going to be any regulations on gun ownership, maybe they should check into known mental instability.  THIS dude had just that.


Amen to that, sister.

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## klickitat

> I lived RIGHT up the road from that Safeway just a few years ago.  I don't ever remember hearing or seeing anyone carrying.  Just sayin'.  It's never really cold, so if someone has a gun on them,(and yes, I am familiar with what it looks like.) you're quite likely to see it.



Just because you do not see something, does not mean it doesn't exist. I carry every minute I am out of the house and half the time when I am in the house. I spend most of my time out of the house in very public places and not one person is aware of my carry. I've been face to face with threatening people and had a gun pointed at them ready to kill if needed and they never had a clue. 

The better way to confirm your notion is to find out what percentage of people who live in that county have a carry permit or own a handgun.

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## Camp10

> It's never really cold, so if someone has a gun on them,(and yes, I am familiar with what it looks like.) you're quite likely to see it.


I'll bet you wouldnt spot my carry gun even if I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

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## Justin Case

Interesting that 19 people were shot with a single Glock,,,  he must have had time to drop a mag,,,   but now they just said they think somebody else may be involved, at least brought the shooter to the event,,,

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## Rick

Mine is in my pocket. If you were looking for it you might make out a slight print of the barrel but most folks would assume it is a knife or not even recognize it.

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## BENESSE

I'd think it was probably some tube socks--shows how little _I_ know.

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## crashdive123

> If there are going to be any regulations on gun ownership, maybe they should check into known mental instability.  THIS dude had just that.





That's already the law.

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## Rick

You are  vicious, vicious woman. Evil, vicious woman. I'm puttin' the stink eye on you right now!

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## klickitat

> Interesting that 19 people were shot with a single Glock,,,  he must have had time to drop a mag,,,   but now they just said they think somebody else may be involved, at least brought the shooter to the event,,,


The sheriff said it was a semi automatic handgun and would not confirm anything else. Anything else is unconfirmed at this point. 

As for the mag drop, you are _assuming_ he did not have a mag that held a minimum of 19 rounds. There are guns that do and there are also extended mags that allow as many as 100 rounds in a handgun.

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## crashdive123

With a Thunderware holster you can be carrying a full frame 1911 and wearing just a bathing suit.  The first C in CC stands for concealed for a reason.

http://www.thunderwear.com/holsters.asp

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## canid

If they got any more strict on the psychological requirements for gun ownership then I wouldn't be able to have one. This is a witch hunt I tell you!

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## Justin Case

> The sheriff said it was a semi automatic handgun and would not confirm anything else. Anything else is unconfirmed at this point. 
> 
> As for the mag drop, you are _assuming_ he did not have a mag that held a minimum of 19 rounds. There are guns that do and there are also extended mags that allow as many as 100 rounds in a handgun.


I have heard it was a glock 9mm several times,,,  anyway, I just said it was interesting.

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## Camp10

> If they got any more strict on the psychological requirements for gun ownership then I wouldn't be able to have one. This is a witch hunt I tell you!


Thats a very good point Canid!  I hope that no one tries to "fix the problem" until logic and thought replaces the emotions.

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## Batch

It is concealed carry. I can see my carry weapon and others have made a comment that they noticed. For example my father-in-law mentioned a couple of years back that he suspected that I had a gun on at Thanksgiving. My wife and kids explained that I have had a gun on me pretty much every time he has seen me for many many years.

People just don't look. My EDC is a SIG P226 and I ain't sporting much in the way of clothing down here. T-shirts and shorts. People don't notice.

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## canid

Yes, but some people can spot a concealed weapon right away every time; Just ask them.

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## oldsoldier

I'm not so sure having not been there if  responding to the attack by an armed citizen or even personal security would have made the casualty count lower or not. Now before anyone gets mad here, I am 100% for owning, carrying, and using a weapon when the need arises. However I wonder if with the panic that was sure to happen when the shooting started if anyone could have gotten a clear shot at the shooter without causing more collaterial damage?

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## BENESSE

> You are  vicious, vicious woman. Evil, vicious woman. I'm puttin' the stink eye on you right now!


Why, whadidIsay? I was merely admitting how naive I am in these matters...you know, easily fooled.

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## Rick

Uh huh....

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## Justin Case

Unless you are trying to show it off nobody should see it,,

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## canid

If one person responds with armed force, it's pretty easy to tell where the target is. If 6 people are standing with a drawn weapon I could see it getting a little complicated in the heat of the moment.

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## canid

> Unless you are trying to show it off nobody should see it,,


that's one of the issues i have with open carry. I carry a fixed blade knife nearly all the time, and have to do so openly. Many people seem to mistake this for some sort of posturing, rather than my need not to be arrested for a felony.

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## Batch

> If one person responds with armed force, it's pretty easy to tell where the target is. If 6 people are standing with a drawn weapon I could see it getting a little complicated in the heat of the moment.


I doubt you will find a case of that many people responding. Most CCW holders don't carry. So only a small percentage of the population actually carry everyday.

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## klickitat

CCW holders are by nature defensive people. They will first try to make sure that theirs are safe before reacting. Even those with high levels of training are taught to put themselves between their loved ones and the threat while pulling a gun. 

CCW's will hold that position generally and protect rather than going on the attack to stop a threat. The perp in this case was tackled by two people so this indicates that it might have been fairly fast and furious. Once you have a defensive position the whole thing could have been over.

Contrary to popular liberal myth, CCW holders are not cowboys.

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## canid

here and now, no. in a social climate where people don't have to go well out of their way to secure permission to exercise what is supposed to be a right, why not?

this is not - of course - an argument against public carry. it should illustrate a responsibility in doing so that might take some effort in reacquiring if we ever get the right back.

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## crashdive123

I carry every day.  I also carry a badge on a neck chain (also has a belt clip) that has Concealed Carry Permit Holder on it.  It could be mistaken for a police badge.  I know a lot of them are sold at gun shows because of their "cool factor".  Many LEO's that I have talked with (I serve on the Sheriff's Advisory Council) recommended carrying one.  They all said, if you ever draw your weapon hang the badge around your neck.  While it doesn't mean a thing, if a LEO sees you standing with your weapon drawn and wearing a badge - they will take a second look.

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## canid

sounds like a sound practice to me.

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## Justin Case

the shooter used a glock 19....  that he recently purchased.

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## Batch

I have read advice to carry a vest reading "police" just to get that bit of hesitation.

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## crashdive123

> I have read advice to carry a vest reading "police" just to get that bit of hesitation.


I had asked about that.  I was advised that you could be cosidered to be impersonating a LEO and that could land you in hot water.

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## canid

couldn't that be a crime?

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## klickitat

> the shooter used a glock 19....  that he recently purchased.


Where did you get that information?

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## Justin Case

I see caps all the time that say police, sheriff, FBI etc.

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## Batch

> I had asked about that.  I was advised that you could be cosidered to be impersonating a LEO and that could land you in hot water.


Well, you put it on only when lives are in danger and only to save you from being mistaken as a bad guy and being shot by others.

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## canid

but it could still be interpreted as intent to misrepresent your identity and authority as a law enforcement officer.

i'm sure the badge carrier could too, but it's not as strong an argument as in the case of an article which actually says police.

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## crashdive123

> I see caps all the time that say police, sheriff, FBI etc.


True - I've got one that says Border Patrol.  If you try and use it in what appears to be an official capacity is when you may run into trouble.  On a related note, the embroidery company I use also does a lot of work for the local PD.  The owner told me one day when I said - I should get you to make up a jacket with the PD emblem on it.  His response was something like - we'd both be arrested and fined.

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## Batch

Ok, saw a guy opens up in a mall and is taking lives. You have to go in because your daughter is in the mall. You can either wear something that gives first responders a second of pause or just run in gun drawn and ready.

I don't own a badge or anything that makes any claim towards any LEO organization.

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## rwc1969

There's no stopping this kind of behavior. The more we try to restrict it, the more innocents will be killed, like the 9 year old for instance.

I hope great effort goes into trying to determine why this kid did it and eliminating the source of his reasoning or lack there of.

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## BENESSE

> There's no stopping this kind of behavior. The more we try to restrict it, the more innocents will be killed, like the 9 year old for instance.
> 
> I hope great effort goes into trying to determine why this kid did it *and eliminating the source of his reasoning or lack there of.*


That will be taken care of as soon as he gets the death penalty.

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## canid

> Ok, saw a guy opens up in a mall and is taking lives. You have to go in  because your daughter is in the mall. You can either wear something that  gives first responders a second of pause or just run in gun drawn and  ready.


and you can be arrested and charged with a crime or not, but if you wear of police vest, it's a lot more likely to happen. you're free to take the chance, but you coud just as easily use another article.

how about an article that says first responder? that would communicate your role, still get attention and not likely be construed as impersonation of an LEO.

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## crashdive123

Or SECURITY on an official looking article of clothing.

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## Chris

I have a permit but don't carry everyday, in this situation though I don't think I would have done anything with my weapon, eyewitness reported it was 10 seconds, then the guy was tackled, that I would do, tackle him, if I was  behind or to his side.

But I don't know about you, but I have a hard time hitting a target at the range, let alone a crowd of running people. It sounds like there were people everywhere, a crowd. The risk of hitting the wrong person is just too high, there were almost assuredly people around and behind the shooter if he got so close to the woman. And pulling your gun just to hold onto it just invites a mistake in identification.

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## Chris

> I have heard it was a glock 9mm several times,,,  anyway, I just said it was interesting.


I assumed from the beginning it was a 9 of some sort. Anything bigger and she probably would be dead. I even thought maybe it was a 22 considering, but since other people did die I figured probably not.

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## canid

I don't think there's anything wrong with that sort of reservation at all either. It's integrity to know your abilities, size up the situation and resist the urge to act if it's imprudent, and it's strength (the harder part maybe) not to beat yourself up over it.

I can't say I would have been able to help if I had been there either.

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## crashdive123

> I have a permit but don't carry everyday, in this situation though I don't think I would have done anything with my weapon, eyewitness reported it was 10 seconds, then the guy was tackled, that I would do, tackle him, if I was  behind or to his side.
> 
> But I don't know about you, but I have a hard time hitting a target at the range, let alone a crowd of running people. It sounds like there were people everywhere, a crowd. The risk of hitting the wrong person is just too high, there were almost assuredly people around and behind the shooter if he got so close to the woman. And pulling your gun just to hold onto it just invites a mistake in identification.





> I don't think there's anything wrong with that sort of reservation at all either. It's integrity to know your abilities, size up the situation and resist the urge to act if it's imprudent, and it's strength (the harder part maybe) not to beat yourself up over it.
> 
> I can't say I would have been able to help if I had been there either.


I agree with you both.  Knowing your limitations is the responsibility of every firearm owner.

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## Pal334

> If one person responds with armed force, it's pretty easy to tell where the target is. If 6 people are standing with a drawn weapon I could see it getting a little complicated in the heat of the moment.


The down side is, a professional will still be hesitant ,due to the presence of "innocents" milling about. Remember a responsible person has to have a clear "target" and backstop (as best as possible), otherwise you will be causing more casualties.
Proper employment of ones firearm (if ever needed) in public does amongst other things mean that you can not make a bad situation worse.

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## Rick

I may be wrong but constituents meeting with their elected representative goes to the core of what this country is about. Town meetings, people voicing their opinion, is democracy in action as it were. Who opposes that?

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> Unless you are trying to show it off nobody should see it,,


Funny, I was sitting next to an older lady in a restaurant, we started talking, turns out we know her daughter. One thing led to another, and somehow personal defense came up. She pointed to her pants pocket and pressed the fabric to show that she had a gun. Just guessing I would say .22 or .380.... never had a clue until she "showed it", that she was carrying.



> that's one of the issues i have with open carry. I carry a fixed blade knife nearly all the time, and have to do so openly. Many people seem to mistake this for some sort of posturing, rather than my need not to be arrested for a felony.


I also carry a sheath type knife every day. Here it is legal to carry a fixed blade in public, as long as it's a "Hunting knife" and not another type. I use it (My Nessie) pretty regularly here on the farm. One of the main reasons(I carry a fixed blade) is in case a horse "Sets back" when tied. This could become a VERY dangerous situation with a 1000 lb. animal freaking out trying to get free. I would rather cut a $12 Lead line if necessary than risk life or limb. Something that needs to be done *NOW*, if/when it happens. So a fixed blade is quicker than my folding knives. Funny but "assisted opening" knives are all "Tacticool" and usually not considered as hunting knives. That "interpretation" makes a world of difference in the eyes of the law too.

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## Winnie

There hasn't been any updates over here, does anyone know exactly what happened yet and how the injured are?

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## Justin Case

> There hasn't been any updates over here, does anyone know exactly what happened yet and how the injured are?


nothing is new today,,,

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## LowKey

I'm curious if some of the 19 shots if some of them weren't return-fire collateral damage. It would would be devastating to kill a 9-year-old accidentally instead of the shooter.

This gun the gunman "recently purchased". Did he purchase it legally or off a street corner. 

I just cannot understand the mentality that it's the guns that do the mayhem and not the perpetrator. You can put as many restrictions as you can think of when licensing people to own a gun legally, but that won't stop a determined criminal from buying one from another criminal determined to sell one. We understand that. Why don't/can't most sane people?

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## Justin Case

> I'm curious if some of the 19 shots if some of them weren't return-fire collateral damage.
> 
> This gun the gunman "recently purchased". Did he purchase it legally or off a street corner. 
> 
> I just cannot understand the mentality that it's the guns that do the mayhem and not the perpetrator. You can put as many restrictions as you can think of when licensing people to own a gun legally, but that won't stop a determined criminal from buying one from another criminal determined to sell one. We understand that. Why don't/can't most sane people?


he bought it legally,,, with extended mags,,,

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## LowKey

Still, it wasn't the gun that did the mayhem.

Any more word on the injured? My thoughts actually are more with them than some screwloose shooter.

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## Winnie

Mine too, Lowkey.

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## Justin Case

> Still, it wasn't the gun that did the mayhem.
> 
> Any more word on the injured? My thoughts actually are more with them than some screwloose shooter.


I agree,,,

as for new news,  there isn't any,  everything is the same as it was yesterday,,

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## Batch

I don't have anything that could construe me as trying to impersonate a cop. I would rather have "police" or "Security" written in big letters than a badge.

I was looking for the article I was refering to and can not find it. Maybe it was Ayoob and not Gabe Suarez. I did find an article by Gabe.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/t...by-police.html

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## Justin Case

5 Critical and 5 serious condition,,  there will be a press conference around noon eastern.

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## Trabitha

> Just because you do not see something, does not mean it doesn't exist. I carry every minute I am out of the house and half the time when I am in the house. I spend most of my time out of the house in very public places and not one person is aware of my carry. I've been face to face with threatening people and had a gun pointed at them ready to kill if needed and they never had a clue. 
> 
> The better way to confirm your notion is to find out what percentage of people who live in that county have a carry permit or own a handgun.


I think that goes both ways, Klickitat.  That was my point.  Everyone is assuming that there should have been someone there carrying.  At that time in the morning, in a shopping center, the only people there are older and people there specifically to see the politician.  A carrier simply does not fit the demographic that would have been there to see that politician, at that time of the morning, on a Saturday.  
MY claim that I've never seen a carrier is just as valid as anyone claiming that there SHOULD have been a carrier there.

Also, AZ's open carry laws reduce the NEED to conceal a hand gun.  You are MUCH more likely to SEE someone carrying in AZ than in most other states.  
The argument is kind of silly, if you're trying to say that people that don't witness another person carrying in a place where they lived for a good deal of time, doesn't know what's going on.  Everyone HERE likes the idea of carrying, but unfortunately we represent a TINY fraction of society.  That particular area of NE Tucson, near Oro Valley, is not a high crime area.  That's where people go so that they DON'T have to carry.  :Wink:

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## Trabitha

> Interesting that 19 people were shot with a single Glock,,,  he must have had time to drop a mag,,,   but now they just said they think somebody else may be involved, at least brought the shooter to the event,,,


I've recently seen a 40 round Mag at a gun show for a Glock.  Just sayin'.  HUGE possibility that he had no need to re-load.

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## Pal334

> I don't have anything that could construe me as trying to impersonate a cop. I would rather have "police" or "Security" written in big letters than a badge.
> 
> I was looking for the article I was refering to and can not find it. Maybe it was Ayoob and not Gabe Suarez. I did find an article by Gabe.
> 
> http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/t...by-police.html


I read that article and it has very good advice. I would suggest anyone that carries concealed read it. Thanks for sharing

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## Trabitha

> I agree with you both.  Knowing your limitations is the responsibility of every firearm owner.


EXACTLY the point that everyone here needs to remember.  Not everyone in this country shares our philosophy.  Not everyone is as enthusiastic or as responsible with firearms as we are.  If they were, there would be no victims.  
The assumption that every neighborhood and every shopping center has an armed citizen with the skill and confidence to intervene when a situation like this arises is naive.  I hate to use that word...but you have to remember that we here...on THIS message board, represent a very small segment of society.  A lot of people OUTSIDE this message board view us as "extremists" and "a little bit weird".  

Finally, my husband can squeeze off 15 rounds from a 9mm in less than 15 seconds.  That being said...that doesn't give ANYONE time to react in a crowded parking lot.  Even if there was a carrier, a CONFIDENT carrier, he may never have seen the shooter until he had already been tackled.  


Oh...one more thing.  Did you hear last night?  They aren't blaming Beck like we thought.  They are blaming Palin.  Ugh.

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## crashdive123

Please - let's leave the politcal discussions regarding this to the talking heads, and not on the forum.  There is enough finger ointing from all sides to make your head explode.

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## Justin Case

CNN interviewed a guy yesterday that said he was there and that he had a concealed weapon,,  he said he was in Walgreen when the shots were fired, he ran out and helped subdue the suspect but said he didn't want anyone to know he had a gun because he didn't want to scare anyone,,,  

as for CCW laws,,  correct me if i am wrong, but if you are required to have a CCW permit aren't you required or expected to make certain its concealed ???  I had heard that years ago when i considered getting a permit when i lived in California before..

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## crashdive123

It varies from state to state.  In Florida there is no open carry (there are some exceptions).  Failing to conceal is considered brandishing.  Other states are different.

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## mosquitomountainman

> ...as for CCW laws,,  correct me if i am wrong, but if you are required to have a CCW permit aren't you required or expected to make certain its concealed ???  I had heard that years ago when i considered getting a permit when i lived in California before..


Might depend on the state's open carry laws.  Here in MT you can carry openly without a permit so I doubt if they could prosecute you for carrying openly if you had a cwp.

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## rwc1969

> That will be taken care of as soon as he gets the death penalty.


Uh, no it won't. LOL!

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## LowKey

Are they 100% certain the congresswoman was the target?
Wasn't Judge Roll the one who allowed the multi-million dollar lawsuit against a rancher who held illegal immigrants on his property at gunpoint until law enforcement arrived?
I thought I had heard that name before.

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## klickitat

This thread skirts all around sensitive topics. There is a lot of assuming going on in this thread. I would make the suggestion that you only post verified facts on this thread until all the facts are out.

I have already read more BS then I have in all the threads in this forum put together.  I understand that there are opinions, but spreading unverified rumors and assumptions is unethical and even dangerous.

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## crashdive123

The reports I've seen said that he tried to get to the front of the line to see her.  When he was told to wait in line, he pushed his way to the front, shot her and kept on shooting.

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## Justin Case

> This thread skirts all around sensitive topics. There is a lot of assuming going on in this thread. I would make the suggestion that you only post verified facts on this thread until all the facts are out.
> 
> I have already read more BS then I have in all the threads in this forum put together.  I understand that there are opinions, but spreading unverified rumors and assumptions is unethical and even dangerous.


like ?????

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## LowKey

It's just a discussion, with the thought bubbles that happen as if you were discussing this in the same room with a bunch of people you know. No one here is claiming to be a news outlet.

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## Batch

B, I am not arguing against anything you are saying except that you would necessarily know who is carrying and who isn't.

 As for open carry being legal. People who have thought this out probably would favor concealed carry over open carry. Open carry may be a deterrent. But, it also draws attention to you and may make you a primary target.

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## Trabitha

> CNN interviewed a guy yesterday that said he was there and that he had a concealed weapon,,  he said he was in Walgreen when the shots were fired, he ran out and helped subdue the suspect but said he didn't want anyone to know he had a gun because he didn't want to scare anyone,,,  
> 
> as for CCW laws,,  correct me if i am wrong, but if you are required to have a CCW permit aren't you required or expected to make certain its concealed ???  I had heard that years ago when i considered getting a permit when i lived in California before..


AZ got rid of their requirement for a conceal cary permit last year, I believe...but yeah, it's different per state.

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## Trabitha

> Are they 100% certain the congresswoman was the target?
> Wasn't Judge Roll the one who allowed the multi-million dollar lawsuit against a rancher who held illegal immigrants on his property at gunpoint until law enforcement arrived?
> I thought I had heard that name before.


That was what I was thinking yesterday too. But then the sheriff said in the interview that the Judge wasn't even supposed to be there.  He just showed up on his own after church.  The shots started just as he came around the corner.

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## grrlscout

In Arizona, the requirement for CCW permits was lifted this past Summer.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...apons-law.html

Full text of SB 1108 (.pdf)
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1108s.pdf

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## Justin Case

The second guy they were looking for has been cleared,,,,, (nbc)

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## Rick

I really feel sorry for the family of the 9 year old girl. I just read she was born on Sep. 11, 2001 and now this.

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## BENESSE

Honestly, with our home grown nuts, who needs _theirs_?

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Charges filed against "Mr." Loughner..........

http://www.kold.com/global/story.asp?s=13811416

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## Rick

Pumping sunlight to this cretin is too good for him. Lethal injection is just a waste of good drugs. What's a civilized society to do? Is draw and quarter an option?

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## nell67

> Pumping sunlight to this cretin is too good for him. Lethal injection is just a waste of good drugs. What's a civilized society to do? Is draw and quarter an option?


 No.Firing squad is more like it.Then burn him where he lays.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> Pumping sunlight to this cretin is too good for him. Lethal injection is just a waste of good drugs. What's a civilized society to do? Is draw and quarter an option?





> No.Firing squad is more like it.Then burn him where he lays.


Nope, I say just lock him up..... in a septic tank. That way he'll be with more of his "Kind".

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## nell67

> Nope, I say just lock him up..... in a septic tank. That way he'll be with more of his "Kind".


 ++++++1!!!!!!!

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## BENESSE

I'd say let him loose in the wilderness of Montana. Give the natives some cheap entertainment.

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## Rick

Apparently they found a letter in a safe in his parent's home that the Congresswoman had sent to him last year thanking him for participating in some rally. They also found, but were quite vague, a document stating he "Planned ahead" and a reference to assassination, which he signed. He has invoked his right of self incrimination and is not cooperating. Fine. Give him a trial then hang him.

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## SARKY

Well on facebbok, the useful idiots are at it. Blaming the gun, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sara Palin for this. People are so stupid it breaks my heart. I just expect so much more of them.

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## LowKey

I avoid that problem altogether. I don't subscribe to Facebook or Twitter.

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## canid

twitter and facebook aren't behind that, stupidity is. you don' thave to go to any specific sources to find stupidity.

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## BENESSE

People who think that every brain fart is worth twittering about have never been on my radar screen for anything except who to avoid. It's all just noise.

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## canid

That's like saying vbulletin is without value because most forums built with it are not worth using. You would be missing out on this one.

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## rwc1969

> I avoid that problem altogether. I don't subscribe to Facebook or Twitter.


That sounds like a good plan.

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## kyratshooter

> Well on facebbok, the useful idiots are at it. Blaming the gun, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sara Palin for this. People are so stupid it breaks my heart. I just expect so much more of them.


When all this broke on Saturday the first things that flashed across the media face was "right wing, vetran, militia member, hate monger".

Now it seems he was a left wing hate monger, was rejected from recruitment in the military, was widely known as a mentally unstable pothead and assisinated a person who partually shared his ideology.

These people are what you get when you spend 18 years leaving no child behind, validating everything  everyone does as "special" and never holding anyone accountable for their actions/failures and rewarding them for just showing up.  This kid came out of that system and hit the real world.  No one had a participation trophy for him, no employer was going to put up with his mouthy rudeness.  He could not take his immidiate and astounding failure and needed a scapegoat.  

Is it not astounding that so many of these new nutcases are not making it more then 4-5 years out of the protective status of a "Minor" before they blow? 

The UVA shooter was cut from the same cloth.  A U-tube ninja, known nutcase, going straight from the computer fantacy world to the killing ground with no in between steps to bring the legal system to action.

From what I have seen on the computer in the past couple of days we spend way too much time worrying about "the man" scanning our forums and posts.  Apparently "the man" does not care if we are freeking mass murdering  anarchists or what we put on the internet.

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## Ken

> And watch......... the anti-gun lobby will capitalize on this for their own agenda.


And so they have:  http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/g...icle-1.1309920

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## ElevenBravo

Another notch in the anti gun movement... I cry red flag.

EB

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