# General > General Guns & Ammo >  Looking at air guns

## jim Glass

I have an old .22 cal Crossman pellet rifle made back in the 60's that uses 2 Co2 cylinders at a time.  I play with it quite often and get by with it since my back yard is adjacent to the county side.

I understand air guns have progressed a long way and now have .25, .30, and 357 cal air guns.   Does someone here know about these things.   It is almost blackbird season here and I could use a good air gun on raccoons in Florida.   These modern air guns are gassed up from scuba tanks or from expensive air pumps.

Any opinions on air guns?

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## madmax

Following.  Need a backyard shooter in town.

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## crashdive123

I've got the Beeman Dual Caliber (.22 and .177) that is fine for backyard shooting.  I tried several brands of pellets before I found one that shoots really well.

Was talking with a friend the other day that has gotten into air gunning (who knew that was a thing) and is spending over 2K per rifle now (he has several).  

For that kind of $$ mine will shoot something bigger than pellets.

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## Antonyraison

I am also following..
I have (with my dad, was actually his rifle while growing up so its easily 45-50+ years old) a really nice old BSA air rifle .22 Which well the piece just under the barrel breaks away to cock the gun, basically uses a spring, which I used to shoot quiet a bit and was really decent at going through Tin cans... 
A  lot our guys here use what they now call PCP air rifles which uses the CO2 Air canisters similar to what A paintball gun would... and some of them are fairly powerful..
I wouldn't really know what to recommend or exactly how many FPS it should be or any of that, but I am also looking at possibly getting a back yard shooter as where I am presently staying the yard is an Acre big

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## jim Glass

The PCP air rifles is what I'm looking at but these are charged up from an air pump.   The larger calibers have some impressive statistics like killing deer at 50 yards and even wild hogs with brain shots.     Some PCP air guns can cost $500 and up but I hear
a nice first gun can be bought for $250 to $300.

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## Antonyraison

> The PCP air rifles is what I'm looking at but these are charged up from an air pump.   The larger calibers have some impressive statistics like killing deer at 50 yards and even wild hogs with brain shots.     Some PCP air guns can cost $500 and up but I hear
> a nice first gun can be bought for $250 to $300.


Indeed Heard some claims like that, managed to shoot one of my friends ones back out in the filed in 2015, was fairly large caliber, larger than .22.. I don't know the brand or the exact caliber, just recall it had a magazine that could take I think about 6 rounds, looked like the inside piece of a revolver, just smaller, that slots into rifle like a cartage... And It shot really well, easily could take out small game like rabbits and such.. and had quiet an effective range also... I will ask him exactly what it was...

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## Antonyraison

Ok I have returned with answers...
The PCP he has is  the Air Arms S510 Xtra FAC Sidelever PCP Air Rifle
they come in .177 , .22 and .25  shoots at around 1000fps or 35ft lbs power


here is a video Of a rifle with the same power taking out a hog with a .25

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## madmax

Nice.  But I sure wouldn't want to bring home a 1000 dollar airgun.  My wife knows everything.

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## Antonyraison

The thing is with Air rifles according to my Mate that has quiet a few you either going for PCP or springer..
the springers are cheap but need maintenance and springs break seals break etc.. but you can get fairly powerful ones I think he said you need about 4.5lb force to go through a rabbit skull and springers average around 12ft-lbs

the next thing I think (well for me is confusion over fps, and what they mean by this..)
He explained it to me exactly like this: (quoting his words directly from a text message)

[14:14, 4/6/2018] Andre Boswa: FPS is a calculation between weight of pellet and power of rifle. You have to be careful in particular with Gamo. The quote 1000fps but with a 5 grain weight pellet then you shoot something like an 11 grain and its like lobbing a stone. Its better for them to state ft-lbs (foot Pounds) or Joules. My rifle can shoot 12 grain at 1200fps but the pellets just swirl around and its inaccurate and little stopping power. Best speed for pellets are less than 950 for stable flight so I shoot nothing under 15 grain for my PCP. In the end it depends what your going to do.
[14:17, 4/6/2018] Andre Boswa: If you are going to shoot cans in the yard you can make anything work. Hunting small game you typically have a target area of about and inch in diameter you want to hit. Pigeons you will often with a lower power rifle have the pellet deflect off the breast bone and just injure the bird. In the end it becomes  a minefield like any other hobby, the more you research the more expensive your preference goes and typically 1 is never enough....

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## Antonyraison

Well this benjamin Air rifle in that above video taking out a hog is around 500 USD.

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## Antonyraison

Well after a lot of more research and shooting,
I got myself a qb79 Which basically is a pcp and takes those Paintball gun cylinders (with the right adapter)
its a .22 caliber and I opted to take the 15.4grain pellets...  Shoots quiet nicely.. just using iron sites..
I will with in time like figure out what grain pellets work better and adjust the iron sites a bit this week/end
at A later stage i likely get a nice scope for it.
The Air rifle itself its not that expensive just under 200usd
I will post pics and vids later when I have the time.

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## Antonyraison

here is a video of one.. (not my video)

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## Antonyraison

Here is a very Short Video Of Me shooting my Rifle at thick Baked bean tin can from about 10meters or 10 yards more or less.. 
It easily goes through both sides of a tin can at 10 yards, and likely will do so at 20, but at 20 with current, I cant even hit the broad side of a barn... but that can be a few things from the ammo to the stock sites;I don'tt particularly like these stock Iron sights on it... also there is possible deflection from the co2 canister touching barrel (which I likely can sort out via modifying the connection somewhat or getting one that is slightly less diameter, this I take in to a specialized air gun place to assist)
I will also at a later stage likely put on a scope, although I have a friend that that said he can give me a scope he has no use for
For the price And ability with right tuning etc can reach up to 740fps with the right tank on .22 and set correctly can be extremely accurate...
Stock on a 9ounce can with the 15.4 grain is in the 600fps range which is Quiet a bit, and more than enough for target and small pest control..

Any way here is my video.

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## jim Glass

Andre:    Your Mate is quite knowledgeable on air guns.   I have heard before to keep the pellet speed around 950 fpm.   Speeds over
1000 fpm approach the speed of sound and this creates turbulence for the pellet while in flight.   He also mentioned one air gun is not typically enough.    Must me like AR-15s.   I have 3 of them now.

Stated a project yesterday.   I saw on Youtube where a guy made an electric pump for his PCP air gun using an old compressor from a refrigerator.   Yesterday I bought 2 compressors at a scrap yard, got one of them working.   More later

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## kyratshooter

While there is very little chance of an air gun pushing a 14 grain pellet over the speed of sound it should at least come within a couple of hundred FPS of doing so.

And if that accuracy issue does not straighten out I would be on the phone to customer service real soon.  You need to get that rifle sandbagged down on a table and really check its accuracy.

Looking at the media sources it appears that there are different diameter reservoirs available and if yours puts pressure on the barrel I would go back to where I obtained it and see about a trade back. 

And all of us that are used to shooting "normal" powder burning firearms, please remember that we are talking about 14-15 grain pellets traveling at the 600-800 fps level.

A CCI cb cap pushes a 29 grain bullet at 700 fps, twice the energy of the air rifle in question, and is not normally considered anything but a mouse and rat cartridge. It also works at about the same noise level.

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## jim Glass

Ya, and I figured out the refrigerator compressor is not going to work as a pellet gun compressor.  No where near the required pressure.   That cost me $20 to learn that one.

Hmmmm.....good points ratshooter

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## Rick

Still, you've got a $20 compressor. Good enough to inflate the grandkid's toys.

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## jim Glass

These PCP air guns are looking like a money pit.    For $267 at Amazon, I can buy a Benjamin pellet rifle with a hand pump to power it up.  These had pumps look like bicycle tire pumps but will buid up 4500 PSI of pressure.  Sounds like 100 pumps to power up the pellet rifle.    Then you get 30-40 shots on that pump up.    So people are finding ways to put electric motors on these hand pumps.    Neat setups using gearmotors with cranks to convert rotary motion into reciprocating  motion.  Now you have this machine sitting in your garage with the purpose of airing up this pellet gun or air tanks for the pellet gun.     Well, you don't need the bicycle pump at all if you have $350 to $500 for an electric pump.

The other option is a springer air gun where you cock the gun between each shot.  It has its own air pump built into the rifle and boast a pellet traveling at 1200 fps.

Here is the link that got me interested:   http://forums.floridasportsman.com/d...ing-faq#latest

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## kyratshooter

How odd!

For $280 I can buy a build kit for an AR and for $350 to $500 I can have 1500-2000 rounds of ammo!

You can buy a 1200 fps capable air rifle at Walmart for $75-$100 any old day you want to walk in there.  Almost all the good springers now launch the ultralight pellets at that velocity.  

But as we already said, that speed of sound transition for the pellets makes them unstable, and the pellets of usable weight will not reach that 1100 fps threshold anyway.  

I have really found little use for the one I have and do not need to get started on another branch of the hobby.  I have been fighting the urge to build an AK for 5 years and barely have held out even though it would require me to buy $2000 of tooling to build a $500 rifle!

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## jim Glass

> How odd!


It is actually

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## jim Glass

> Nice.  But I sure wouldn't want to bring home a 1000 dollar airgun.  My wife knows everything.


My wife would probably like an air rifle because she hates my AR-15s.   Not sure if she knows that I have 3 of them.   She has formed her opinions from listening to the news media.    I told her there are countless rifles that do the same exact thing an AR-15 does some made in WWII

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## Antonyraison

> Andre:    Your Mate is quite knowledgeable on air guns.   I have heard before to keep the pellet speed around 950 fpm.   Speeds over
> 1000 fpm approach the speed of sound and this creates turbulence for the pellet while in flight.   He also mentioned one air gun is not typically enough.    Must me like AR-15s.   I have 3 of them now.
> 
> Stated a project yesterday.   I saw on Youtube where a guy made an electric pump for his PCP air gun using an old compressor from a refrigerator.   Yesterday I bought 2 compressors at a scrap yard, got one of them working.   More later


Yes Andre' Is very Knowledgeable on them and owns several air rifles and several other normal Fire-arms, hence I spoke with him to get an understanding of what I can look at to suit what I want to do.

I have seen on the net that with PCP you can get a stirrup pump and pump them manually like you would a bicycle.. I would not know how well that works...
most are opting for the Dive tank cylinders

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## Antonyraison

> While there is very little chance of an air gun pushing a 14 grain pellet over the speed of sound it should at least come within a couple of hundred FPS of doing so.
> 
> And if that accuracy issue does not straighten out I would be on the phone to customer service real soon.  You need to get that rifle sandbagged down on a table and really check its accuracy.
> 
> Looking at the media sources it appears that there are different diameter reservoirs available and if yours puts pressure on the barrel I would go back to where I obtained it and see about a trade back. 
> 
> And all of us that are used to shooting "normal" powder burning firearms, please remember that we are talking about 14-15 grain pellets traveling at the 600-800 fps level.
> 
> A CCI cb cap pushes a 29 grain bullet at 700 fps, twice the energy of the air rifle in question, and is not normally considered anything but a mouse and rat cartridge. It also works at about the same noise level.


yeah there is this issue, and I am speaking to some people here about sorting this out, I dont know if the older co2 canisters are available, however this rifle is a pretty sought after one for its ease of modifications and how well they can shoot once all sorted..
I think I try get that sorted here rather than taking it back...

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## Antonyraison

> How odd!
> 
> For $280 I can buy a build kit for an AR and for $350 to $500 I can have 1500-2000 rounds of ammo!
> 
> You can buy a 1200 fps capable air rifle at Walmart for $75-$100 any old day you want to walk in there.  Almost all the good springers now launch the ultralight pellets at that velocity.  
> 
> But as we already said, that speed of sound transition for the pellets makes them unstable, and the pellets of usable weight will not reach that 1100 fps threshold anyway.  
> 
> I have really found little use for the one I have and do not need to get started on another branch of the hobby.  I have been fighting the urge to build an AK for 5 years and barely have held out even though it would require me to buy $2000 of tooling to build a $500 rifle!


Yeah when people are saying 1200 fps that doesn't mean much, usually its with very light pellets...
As far as I am aware anything above 900 fps is not going to shoot great...
they always claiming an insane FPS, but what they not telling you is that is with like a 5 grain pellet.
foot pounds would be a better description of power.

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## Antonyraison

Anyway I go in to this Shop that has sorted many many issues with the exact issue I am having with my exact rifle and Get them to sort out what they can, and help me choose a good scope, tune in the rifle and get as much out of it as they can to shoot very accurately with enough power..
once This is all done hopefully I can return With some Decent Feed back on WHAT exact fps I am getting on what grain pellets and Show the accuracy Once all the minor issues are sorted.

As for An actual fire arm,  we require licences for those, I don't particularly want to own A proper fire Arm(besides the fact they REALLY EXPENSIVE HERE compared to an air rifle, and the licencing is a huge annoyance to get...not worth what I want to use it for), I enjoy plinking targets and some pest control, rats, mice, pigeons, rabbits at the biggest.. which is sufficient for what I would like if I ever had to take it in the bush those are the quick easy meals I would go for, anything bigger is honestly a waste for me.

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## jim Glass

Now I'm looking at a springer type air rifle.     Ruger has a Yukon that claims to have 1400 fps and a 
Ruger air Magnum claims to have 1200 fps.   .22 or .177.   You just cock these to pump  but only one shot per cock.    I thought it would be cool to get 40 shots per charge but what is that really worth.  If I take it to Florida I don't care to haul pumps and compressors for an air gun.   Cabelas near here has the Ruger Magnum in stock!!!!!!

Correction:   The pellet speed varies depending on who is selling the air gun.   And the speed varies between .177  and .22 cal, I expect that.

The Beeman QB79 sells for $109 to $119 claims to have 650 fps

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## kyratshooter

Calm down Jim, think about this for a minute.  Speed of the pellet is not everything.  Speed past 1100fps causes unstable pellets that are not accurate.

If going past the speed of sound makes the pellets unstable why do you want 1400fps?  And those speed measurements are taken using super lightweight pellets that are useless for anything but getting speed.

It seems the ultimate choice would be a rifle that holds things at just under 1100fps.  Best accuracy for the most controllable power.

And if that Air Magnum will push a .177 pellet to 1200fps it is not going to push the .22 pellet to the same speed.  That .22 pellet weighs almost twice what a .177 pellet weighs.  It is a Chinese pellet rifle advertising impossibility.  

So you want the heaviest pellet you can get that will go just below 1100fps, which means a .22 at 800-900fps  is going to give the most accuracy and power combined.  

There is a lot of exaggeration of speed numbers that goes on in the pellet rifle world.  They know that most people do not own a chronograph and will never get an accurate true measurement of their gun's performance so they can puke up any numbers they think will sell guns. 

BTW, all of these rifles are made either in China or in Turkey.  They are imported by Beman, Crossman, RWS or Ruger and relabeled.  If you look around, or even google the model numbers, you can find out what the Chinese, Spanish or Turkish name of most rifles is and buy them for way less than the American name brand price.  

Gamo is a Spanish company and owns BSA, producing guns for other manufacturers on spec.  Hatsan is a Turkish firm that produces for many of the "name brand" firms in Europe as well as having a good reputation on their own.  Beman guns are from several firms but only admit to "German" heritage.  Ruger air rifles are made by Umerex, a Chinese firm that also produces for RWS.  The RWS and Ruger guns are identical.

If you look at the reviews it is a hoot!  The exact same gun with the imported name will get trashed in the reviews but the same gun with a name brand on it will be reviewed like it was a bar of gold.

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## jim Glass

Well, I ordered the Ruger Yukon online from Walmart.  Got a heck of a deal, $149.00, .22 cal.    Walmart would not ship the air rifle to me or a store in Illinois all because of that stupid gun card we have to have.   FREE shipping to.   I didn't know Illinois was that strict on air guns.    So, I had the air gun shipped to Lake Geneva Wisconsin, a nice 50 mile drive from here.   Wish it was summer, I'd cruise all the beaches along the way.

Another example of how gun control doesn't work

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## Antonyraison

Dont get me wrong you can get decent springers that will shoot .177 and others .22 at a decent FPS on a decent grain pellet...
But dont be fooled by an odd claim of 1000fps.. That claim is very misleading and is often rated for .177 very light grain pellets.
I think A decent Springer that people have been recommending is an HW80 in .22 ( and likely wont get those insane claims, but its is a very very good rifle)

FPS is not everything, its misleading.

You might also Want to look at some gas ram rifles,
Check reviews, ask people that own them, shoot as many as you can, test them etc.

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## jim Glass

Yes, Cabelas rates the Ruger Yukon at 1200 fps.   The specs at Walmart rate it at 1050 fps.   Watching  YouTube videos last night and a guy claimed these are all false claims, these pellet rifles only put out 650 to 750 fps.    The pellet rifle I have now I bought used in
1974 so I will be nice have a new one.   I'll have fun with it.    My wife says I'm just a big kid anyway.

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## kyratshooter

Like I said, and like Anthony said, and anyone else for that matter, the speed you get is going to be determined by the weight of the pellet and the amount of bearing surface the pellet puts against the rifling, since the spring is putting out the same consistent puff of air with each shot.  

That is why most serious target guns are either springers or gas piston.  the target rifles hold their velocities down around 500-550 to get consistency and stability out of the pellet.  All they have to do is punch a hole in a piece of paper.

The current crop of target air rifles of Olympic quality are some of the most accurate guns ever built by man.  They are capable of constant one hole accuracy at 10 meters.  Yep, 10 meters, 33 feet, is the air rifle standard.  Officially 9 feet for B-B guns.

.22 pellets come in a variety of weights and shapes and just like with .22 bullets you have to find what your rifle likes.  Lightweight .22 pellets start at 11 grains, mediums like the Crossman and Beeman brands at Walmart often weigh 15 grains and some heavy specialty pellets will top 20 grains.   My rifle pushes the 15 grains pellets at around 800fps.

About 5 years back I invested $100 in a chronograph and it has been some of the best money I ever spent.  It is especially nice to set up in the back yard and test BB gun, pellet gun and .22 rimfire velocities,  I have even tested the velocity of different arrow weights.  The way I taught myself to run the machine was shooting a couple of hundred pellets across the light traps in the back yard.  I had pellet weights/velocities out the wazoo.

I have set it up at the range to test reloads I am working up.  I have a difficult time when I do that though.  Everyone at the range wants to see what their latest whizzbang round is doing and I wind up being the physics professor for the rest of the day.

That $100 investment has answered a lot of nagging questions I had for years.

Anyway, I know what my specific rifles will do but that is just my rifles, with the springs they have, the piston weight they have and the lubrication I use.  

Did you know a Red Ryder BB gun puts out 275fps?  The old long stroke pump guns, I think they were the model 25 Daisey, were reported to get 350 but I never got to measure one.

You can also get a .177 pellet up to nearly 500fps out of the little $25 pump up Crossman 760.  BBs go a little faster and average 550fps.

What is a practical test without a chronograph? 

I ascribe to the test established by Turner Kirkland, who was owner of Dixie Gun Works back in the day.  Turner always claimed that if a piece of small shot, like a B-B or pellet, would penetrate both sides of a soup can it would kill a bird.  We are talking about a 1955 era soup can not a 2018 soup can or aluminum pop can.  Get a can that held tomato sauce or some acidic food, they are about 1955 tough.  A paint can would work too.

If a small shot would penetrate both sides of a 5 gallon metal bucket, the ones like driveway sealer or asphalt come in, it was stout enough for small game like squirrels and rabbits.  Over the years I realized that one side penetration was good enough.  

Back when I was a kid I also used a "Coke bottle test".  Coke bottles (not off band bottles) were heavy green glass about 3/16" thick and tempered for strength.  Most BB guns just sent their fodder bouncing off into the wild (you're gonna put your eye out!).  If your BB gun would shatter a coke bottle it was a strong shooter.  Not many would.

Now over in Great Britain they are not allowed to sell anything that produces over 12 foot pounds of energy, and they measure each and ever air rifle offered for sale in the UK!  If they use those light weight pellets to measure velocity/energy at the false level claimed by the factories here in America they would have very little to sell!

The makers therefore limit their rifles to the lower velocities required to meet the standards by selling only average to heavy pellets and reducing the power of the springs in the rifles.

That UK standard of 12 foot pounds is a 15 grain .22 pellet at 600fps.  Or a 9 grain .177 pellet at 750fps.

Just about every springer or PCP gun in America will exceed that level, so we start out at what they consider too dangerous for the common man to own.

By limiting the energy and not the velocity they put every caliber on the same playing field but the flat trajectory and penetration of the .177 in that situation give it the edge when hunting.  Over here we can push the . 22 up to the 900-1000fps level and always gain energy over the .177 at the same velocity.

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## Rick

We would use those same Coke bottles to launch bottle caps out into the lake. You could insert up to three firecrackers in a Coke bottle then clamp the cap down over them and light the fuse. The bottle would be fine. Four firecrackers would send glass flying everywhere but three would launch that bottle cap into orbit. So I absolutely believe it when you say not many BB guns would shatter a Coke bottle. That was some tough glass! I would not dare do that with a glass bottle today.

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## Antonyraison

Alrighty,
I have an update..
So With my qb79.. its no big train smash..
I got a better brand of pellets: premiere ultra Magnum 14.3 grand, and a cheap asg 4X40 Scope
I zeroed in the Scope and shot from 10meters,15m, 20meters, and 30meters.
here are some of the groupings at around 15-20meters:
4a9614c8-0a1f-4e8d-bc14-fe21f4452da4.jpg
89c4816a-cca2-49a0-955f-ad0f0af49eae.jpg

And here is the rifle Now:
04dc9b42-923b-441e-ad4f-6c485fc593a9.jpg

So its seems fairly decent upto even 30meters so I am happy,
re the Canister issue, I spoke to one of the gunsmiths they recommend, and All he does is change the canister, his manages to sort these out with a soda stream bottle, gives the same psi etc, so I may get him to do that if I have issue with inaccuracy.
also he can open up gun do a few small tweaks and get an extra 100fps out of it. Also The rifle itself is capable of being fully converted to PCP if I want

I am fairly happy though to get around 500-600fsp out of it on these pellets and seems amply powered for what I want, so I play around and if I want to sort these small issues out they really not a big issue.

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## Antonyraison

> Like I said, and like Anthony said, and anyone else for that matter, the speed you get is going to be determined by the weight of the pellet and the amount of bearing surface the pellet puts against the rifling, since the spring is putting out the same consistent puff of air with each shot.  
> 
> That is why most serious target guns are either springers or gas piston.  the target rifles hold their velocities down around 500-550 to get consistency and stability out of the pellet.  All they have to do is punch a hole in a piece of paper.
> 
> The current crop of target air rifles of Olympic quality are some of the most accurate guns ever built by man.  They are capable of constant one hole accuracy at 10 meters.  Yep, 10 meters, 33 feet, is the air rifle standard.  Officially 9 feet for B-B guns.
> 
> .22 pellets come in a variety of weights and shapes and just like with .22 bullets you have to find what your rifle likes.  Lightweight .22 pellets start at 11 grains, mediums like the Crossman and Beeman brands at Walmart often weigh 15 grains and some heavy specialty pellets will top 20 grains.   My rifle pushes the 15 grains pellets at around 800fps.
> 
> About 5 years back I invested $100 in a chronograph and it has been some of the best money I ever spent.  It is especially nice to set up in the back yard and test BB gun, pellet gun and .22 rimfire velocities,  I have even tested the velocity of different arrow weights.  The way I taught myself to run the machine was shooting a couple of hundred pellets across the light traps in the back yard.  I had pellet weights/velocities out the wazoo.
> ...


With the Can power test,
the say similar things here, they say take a Tin Bean can (they quite thick tin)
And well if your rifle's pellet goes through both sides its effective for birds, rabbits and such
As soon as you go further and further away, and its stops going through both sides you out of its effective range,
Mine was still doing that From about 25 meters... I haven't bothered to even go further.. So I am happy with where it is, I can mod and customize the rifle, its a very good platform for it.

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## Antonyraison

On the weekend I actually decided to get the rifle 100%
so I took it to the smith, and he machined the tap to take a soda stream canister (cost me about the equivalent of like 12 USD to fix that issue)
Then I shot with rifle most of weekend.
It is perfect now. highly accurate and I am happy.
So here you go.. all done..
The smith reckons on the 14.3g pellets on my rifle is around 700fps.
I will put it into a chronograph soon.
But roughly giving around 16foot pound force with the current setup.

5ea00fda-23fb-436a-811e-679a0e716b91.jpg

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## Antonyraison

Also got to shoot with a nice brake barrel (uses a gas ram system), artemis sr1000s air rifle fairly inexpensive (comes in slightly cheaper than my set up)
And that is giving roughly same power.
If you look at the box it will say 900fps.. that is on 4.5mm /.177
and 750fps  on 5.5mm or .22
I would say more like 700fps.
My mate is getting his rifle chronographed later.. so I will be able to give you a better idea of the actual power.
And in Time I will get mine also put through a chronograph.

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## Tokwan

[QUOTE  I play with it quite often [/QUOTE]

Hmmmmm :Drool:  :Drool:  :Sneaky2:  :Sneaky2:

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## kyratshooter

Here is an easy and quick calculator from Pyramid Air.  

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/W..._August_2003/5

Pyramid has a wealth of information on their website.

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## Antonyraison

Cool well my friend Air rifle, on the .22 pellets is reporting 720fps...

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## jim Glass

The Ruger Yukon showed up a day early at Walmart so I drove to Lake Geneva Wisconsin to pick it up.   I was rather impressed with the Yukon when I unboxed it.   Nicely finished stock the barrel and receiver looks like a serious gun.   Most pellet guns I have seen are rather small and light weight like a kids gun.   The Yukon is rather heavy and bulky.

Before firing I ran several cleaning patches down the barrel to remove the packing grease.   The final patch was soaked in gun oil.

I test fired inside my shop (since it is still winter here) at a distance of 33 feet.    Using the iron sights and right out of the box it was only an inch off from "0".   Must have fired 25, 14 gr, Ruger pellets last night.  It is really accurate and penetrated a 3/4" pine board.    For a pellet gun it has a nice set of iron sights, adjustable for windage and elevation.   It came with a scope but haven't looked at it yet, I like the iron sights.

When done shooting I ran a couple of cleaning patches down the barrel.   Really dirty cleaning patches.   This pellet gun is dirtier than a powder burning gun.  When finished I discharged the pellet gun.    The owner manual recommends the pellet gun not be stored in a loaded state.

More on the Ruger Yukon later

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## Antonyraison

> The Ruger Yukon showed up a day early at Walmart so I drove to Lake Geneva Wisconsin to pick it up.   I was rather impressed with the Yukon when I unboxed it.   Nicely finished stock the barrel and receiver looks like a serious gun.   Most pellet guns I have seen are rather small and light weight like a kids gun.   The Yukon is rather heavy and bulky.
> 
> Before firing I ran several cleaning patches down the barrel to remove the packing grease.   The final patch was soaked in gun oil.
> 
> I test fired inside my shop (since it is still winter here) at a distance of 33 feet.    Using the iron sights and right out of the box it was only an inch off from "0".   Must have fired 25, 14 gr, Ruger pellets last night.  It is really accurate and penetrated a 3/4" pine board.    For a pellet gun it has a nice set of iron sights, adjustable for windage and elevation.   It came with a scope but haven't looked at it yet, I like the iron sights.
> 
> When done shooting I ran a couple of cleaning patches down the barrel.   Really dirty cleaning patches.   This pellet gun is dirtier than a powder burning gun.  When finished I discharged the pellet gun.    The owner manual recommends the pellet gun not be stored in a loaded state.
> 
> More on the Ruger Yukon later


Very cool! 
The heavier Spring rifles are more accurate from what I understand.
Sounds pretty powerful.
The more you shoot the air rifle the more accurate it will get, see how it will preform after 500 pellets through it
I also Like iron sights, but wanted a scope for mine.

----------


## kyratshooter

Jim I would leave the iron sights as primary equipment on that Yukon.

The barrel cocking springer rifles use a ball detent to hold the barrel in position and I have always suspected that as the rifle wears the gun will not return to battery at the same exact spot.  

The iron sights are on the barrel so it will not affect them.  

The scope is on the receiver and separate from the barrel.  any change in position from wear to a burr of steel on the surfaces to a piece of lead chip on the breech-face will throw the scope off.

Besides, pellet rifles are like smoothbore shotguns with slugs, the practical range is so close the scope is not really needed, even by us old guys.


HEY ANTHONY, 

how does that compressed gas rifle act when the gas is getting low?

Does it lose power gradually on the last few shots, dump the partial charge at the last full power round, or just refuse to fire if the pressure is low?

----------


## jim Glass

> Jim I would leave the iron sights as primary equipment on that Yukon.
> 
> The barrel cocking springer rifles use a ball detent to hold the barrel in position and I have always suspected that as the rifle wears the gun will not return to battery at the same exact spot.  
> 
> The iron sights are on the barrel so it will not affect them.  
> 
> The scope is on the receiver and separate from the barrel.  any change in position from wear to a burr of steel on the surfaces to a piece of lead chip on the breech-face will throw the scope off.
> 
> Besides, pellet rifles are like smoothbore shotguns with slugs, the practical range is so close the scope is not really needed, even by us old guys.


I was thinking the same exact thing.

----------


## jim Glass

What the Ruger Yukon looks like, less the scope, and how the pellet rifle shot right out of the box.    This was a 33 foot shooting range inside my shop.
After some tweaking it shoots even better.

----------


## Antonyraison

> Jim I would leave the iron sights as primary equipment on that Yukon.
> 
> The barrel cocking springer rifles use a ball detent to hold the barrel in position and I have always suspected that as the rifle wears the gun will not return to battery at the same exact spot.  
> 
> The iron sights are on the barrel so it will not affect them.  
> 
> The scope is on the receiver and separate from the barrel.  any change in position from wear to a burr of steel on the surfaces to a piece of lead chip on the breech-face will throw the scope off.
> 
> Besides, pellet rifles are like smoothbore shotguns with slugs, the practical range is so close the scope is not really needed, even by us old guys.
> ...


I havent reached this point yet, so cant say. And also Have Changed the co2 bottle
The bottle gets about 400 shots (hopefully all full powered, then stop) I will only know once I have gotten there.

----------


## Antonyraison

> What the Ruger Yukon looks like, less the scope, and how the pellet rifle shot right out of the box.    This was a 33 foot shooting range inside my shop.
> After some tweaking it shoots even better.


I like the look of this rifle.

----------


## Antonyraison

Here is a new video I made of my rifle with all the issues sorted

----------


## jim Glass

Lousy day here in Northern Illinois so decided to test out the power of the Ruger Yukon can do.   I selected different materials and thicknesses to see what the Yukon can penetrate.    A bean can has been mentioned as a bench mark
for air gun capability.   Not sure what the thickness is of an old bean can.

First test was .039 6061 aluminum.   Huge dent but no penetration.

Second test was .024 steel sheet.   Huge dent but no penetration

Third test was .015 shim stock with some hardness.   Penetration

Fourth test was .014 thick steel roof edging.   Penetration of one thickness

Fifth test was two thicknesses of the .014 thick roof edging.   Penetration through one thickness but not the second.

----------


## Antonyraison

> Lousy day here in Northern Illinois so decided to test out the power of the Ruger Yukon can do.   I selected different materials and thicknesses to see what the Yukon can penetrate.    A bean can has been mentioned as a bench mark
> for air gun capability.   Not sure what the thickness is of an old bean can.
> 
> First test was .039 6061 aluminum.   Huge dent but no penetration.
> 
> Second test was .024 steel sheet.   Huge dent but no penetration
> 
> Third test was .015 shim stock with some hardness.   Penetration
> 
> ...


Yeah A tin can that usually hold fruit or jams..
I am using a tin bean can and penetration through both sides from about 30meters... havent tried further.
Not sure how it compares to roof edging,
But likely a bit thinner than that.
But the thickness of a tin can used in food industry can be between  0.16 to 0.30 mm   (thats millimeters) 
Assuming .39 = 1mm

ummm 0.014 = .3mm More or less

So yeah the last one you testing on would be Right, but That would be on the really thick side of a Tin can.

----------


## jim Glass

Your 7 day safari looked like a lot of fun.   I have never seen country side like that before.

.3mm X .03937 = .0118"
.16mm X .03937= .0063"

----------


## Antonyraison

> Your 7 day safari looked like a lot of fun.   I have never seen country side like that before.
> 
> .3mm X .03937 = .0118"
> .16mm X .03937= .0063"


Thanks  :Smile:  Its absolutely beautiful up that side..
Southern Africa has some really nice Bush  :Smile: 

Yeah I see your calculation.. hence I said more or less tin can thickness..   
Some times I dont always understand Imperial.... but sometimes I do with things like pounds and feet, miles..
but I dont always look at fractions of an inch so that one I am not always a fay with.
I really like your rifle though its awesome
Capture.JPG

----------


## kyratshooter

Anthony, 9 out of 10 Americans do not understand fractions of an inch!

Oddly enough, it is not the population over here that prevents full conversion to metric (we measure and use math as little as possible anyway), but the engineering community, since we already have so much tooling and infrastructure built in Imperial.

Just keep shooting, the groups are the same size no matter what system you use to measure them.

Want a really realistic target?  Try a plastic water bottle about the size of the game you are hunting.  Most small game is thin skinned and 80% water.  If the pellet will pass through one side, cross the water and exit the other side it will be plenty strong for small game.

----------


## Antonyraison

> Anthony, 9 out of 10 Americans do not understand fractions of an inch!
> 
> Oddly enough, it is not the population over here that prevents full conversion to metric (we measure and use math as little as possible anyway), but the engineering community, since we already have so much tooling and infrastructure built in Imperial.
> 
> Just keep shooting, the groups are the same size no matter what system you use to measure them.
> 
> Want a really realistic target?  Try a plastic water bottle about the size of the game you are hunting.  Most small game is thin skinned and 80% water.  If the pellet will pass through one side, cross the water and exit the other side it will be plenty strong for small game.


I see. Yeah I should actually try that..
Updated Tried that from about 10m..
goes through both side of a filled up bottle not much issue.
hahhah I also Shot a match from about 15m

----------


## kyratshooter

Don't you b%^*#s know that they link neat videos to your pop-ups that show people killing rats with those up-market BB guns!

If you do a You-tube search of reviews on the Yukon they go on forever.  It is worse than AR builds!

I wound up watching those things for the whole day and have barely gotten anything done.

Of course it is pouring rain so I would have accomplished nothing anyway so its no big loss.

Forget the cheap scope Jim, switch the night vision scope to your Yukon!  Farmers all over the mid-west are killing hundreds of rats each night around those feed lots and I bet getting permission to kill rats with an air rifle is a lot easier than getting hunting permission out of the modern farmers.  You can probably hunt every night all Summer.

----------


## jim Glass

What a brilliant idea!!!!!     It will be a way to keep my shooting skills honed until I get back to Florida even though black bird season is well underway here in Northern Illinois.

This is what I have been doing to stay in practice       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGZxAQGcWvQ

Yes, I have to much time on my hands!!!     Truthfully this thing is a lot of fun.

Another video, at the stone quarry

https://youtu.be/tSX_ImZpxfQ

----------


## Antonyraison

> What a brilliant idea!!!!!     It will be a way to keep my shooting skills honed until I get back to Florida even though black bird season is well underway here in Northern Illinois.
> 
> This is what I have been doing to stay in practice       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGZxAQGcWvQ
> 
> Yes, I have to much time on my hands!!!     Truthfully this thing is a lot of fun.
> 
> Another video, at the stone quarry
> 
> https://youtu.be/tSX_ImZpxfQ


hahahah thats an excellent idea... hahahaha The one looks like BatPig flying around.

----------


## kyratshooter

You guys do not realize that every year Cincinnati has a marathon.

It is called The Flying Pig!

For many years there has been an Olympic event shot with air rifles and also rimfire rifles called the "running boar".  It is a very interesting event.  It was dropped after the 2004 games and replaced with a pop-up target event.  Probably due to the expense of building the moving target range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISSF_1...running_target

----------


## jim Glass

I plan to use my AR-15 on this target machine.    I can fill those pig decoys with warm water and shoot at them  at night using my thermo imaging scope at the stone quarry.    Last weekend I used a Marlin .22LR with a scope and it was very effective.   I also tried the 9mm AR-15 with iron sights, not as many hits as the 22LR.  

Although, I can use my air rifles in my own back yard to shoot the moving pigs.     Lots of hits with a pellet gun actually.

When I think I'm getting real good I crank up the speed and the learning process starts over.

----------


## kyratshooter

I need to go back through the archives and the gun room and determine just how much money I have spent connected directly to threads in this firearms forum!

You guys are an expensive bunch to hang out with!

Now I wait for the brown truck once more, bringing my first gun mounted night vision device.  

I have had others, but never one to mount directly on the firearm.

I see dead rats in my future!

Funny I have not found this sport before, since my screen name comes from my old recreational activity of shooting them at the dump.  But that was in daylight, and with .38 wad-cutters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrZK6Ii3f2w

----------


## jim Glass

Awe man, I'm hooked already.   Shooting rats is like shooting little hogs.    What time of night do rats come out?    Do all farms have rats or farms with live stock?

Tell us more about your night vision device.    Does it take pictures?

I know what you mean about this forum being expensive.   Three years ago I didn't know what an AR-15 was, now I have 3 of them because of this forum.   I never dreamed I would own a Night vision scope or a Thermo imaging scope, now I have one of each.   But,,,,,I really enjoy this stuff.   Instead of feeling older, I feel like I'm regressing.

----------


## kyratshooter

I went the cheap route with this first device.  

I bought an IR setup that mounts onto an existing scope.  It has a camera fitted to a scope-eyepiece adapter, a monitor screen and an IR illuminator.  All of it can be changed from one scope to another so I can change it from rifle to rifle without dedicating any gun specifically to the night vision device. 

Since the scope is not moved from rifle to rifle the zero setting of the scope remains the same.  I can use it on an air rifle tonight, a .22 rimfire tomorrow night and one of the ARs or a .308 the next.

It also allows me to use the rifle in the daylight as well as in darkness, with or without the IR illumination.

As a pure survival tool it is really appealing.  I know that night shooting is illegal but in a survival situation being able to take game at night doubles ones food gathering opportunities, or really triples them due to most game being nocturnal to start with. That is why night hunting is illegal!

When do rats come out?  Whenever they think you can not see them, just like the hogs!

I think you will find that rats are available anywhere that harbors a food source.  Dairy operations, hog barns and chicken farms are all equally plagued.  

When I operated my farm down in Tennessee I made the mistake of lining up the round hay bales in the barn lot so they would be handy for winter feed and easy to shift using the tractor.  I had three or four hundred of them filling that barnyard.  Those hay bales were rat magnets!  The pests dug into them, underneath them and tunneled a small city through them.  My cat and dog used to hunt them for sport and leave them lined up on the porch step for my approval.  They hunted them as a team with my dog in top of the bales scaring the rats out and the cat cornering and killing them.  

So it does not even have to be a big setup that does intense feeding.  Just any farm with some grain or hay scattered around and places for the rats to hide and breed.

One female rat can reproduce to multiples that total 23,000 descendants each year and they will live in population congestion that is unimaginable to us.

You might be surprised to discover how many rats you would spot just sitting on your back yard with the lights turned out if you live on the fringe of town.  

Now what you need to do is sprinkle some corn around the house, then get up on the roof with your nigh shooting rig and just wait for them to show up.

I got to thinking about how much it costs to hang around here and went back and re-read this whole thread.

Apparently in just 61 posts the forum has spent about $4000, not counting money spent on compressor projects and nifty targets!

We were better off sticking to the ARs.

----------


## jim Glass

I'm interested in your night vision setup.    Where did you get it?   I think your device is called a "stack on".   The guys I hog hunt with
would be very interested because they already have guns with scopes they use for deer hunting.   I know they would like to have night vision capability but are reluctant to spend the money like I did.     They say they can buy a lot of pork for what I paid for my thermo imaging scope.   Not a very good argument and they don't shoot very many hogs because of it.  But they seem to have plenty of money to spend on Harley motorcycles, something I don't have.  Sometimes you can't look at what something costs but look at what it is.   Thermo imaging is very high level technology and the right equipment for hunting at night.    I hog hunt almost every night and some mornings when I'm in Florida, the other guys hunt only occasionally.    The thermo scope has many, many hours of run time on it.

----------


## kyratshooter

The new state of the art stuff is very expensive, but some of the older stuff, which is still good equipment for the average guy is coming down in price.

What I bought is a simple IR system that is much like what was used on the M1-carbine night sniper rifle of WW2.  It is advertised at 50 meter range but after reading and watching several reviews the actual usable range is more like 100 meters.  These systems seem to be all over the place in the "world of ratshooters".  Probably because they are cheap, simple and modular.  If one part goes out you can replace it without trashing the entire system.  You can also buy a more powerful IR light and boost the system.

At $125 I figured I could not do much damage to the finances since that is about the price of the average scope I generally use.  Besides that I have rotated out a bunch of scopes that left me helpless at dusk and dawn.  I will have less insistence on illuminated cross hairs on every rifle if this works.  And if it does work it will not be the last one I buy.

I am also anxious to see how it works with a couple of the tubed red dot sights I have.  If that will work without blowing out my retinas I will be a happy camper. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182470776685https

I found the simple setup while looking for a price break on the device below, which is termed as a "generation 1 device".  It has both IR and light gathering ability but must be sheltered from daytime light sources.  It therefore requires a dedicated rifle to be used only for night work.

There are several of these very affordable generation 1 devices available now at around the $400 mark.

I decided to wait for a bit before I spent the cost of a new AR kit for an optic that can only be used on one rifle and only at night.  I am not there yet.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/produ...cope?a=2168162

One of the things I discovered is that most of the really expensive devices that are capable of facial identification at 100 meters and target acquisition at 1800 meters can perform further than most rifles can shoot!  I do not need that for shooting rats and vermin at 25 meters with my air rifle.

----------


## jim Glass

I have a Night Owl night vision monocular I bought at Cabelas and still use it in Florida.   The Night Owl monocular I loan out to the other hunters that  don't have any night vision at all.   Some like it and some don't.    The hog hunters determined to kill a hog at night learn to like night vision, like I did.   It takes many hours of viewing to become comfortable with night vision.

This is my Firefield night vision scope.   It served me well but in Florida it is mounted on my AR-15 223 that I loan to guest hunters while the thermo imaging scope is mounted to my 300 blackout.    If a loan hog wonders in I hand the 300 blackout to the guest hunter.   If a sounder of hogs comes in it is pretty much every man for himself but I let the guest hunter make the first shot.    I have some stories to tell on those episodes.

Here is what my Firefield scope looks like, runs on 2 AA batteries that last almost forever: 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...SABEgJvG_D_BwE

----------


## kyratshooter

Ok you guys, due to peer pressure and my own specifically targeted character flaws I now have a new airgun on the way.  

I went half way between Anthony's choice of the pressure canister rifle and Jim's choice of a springer.  I have ordered a Diania Stormryder PCP in .22 caliber.

It uses pressurized air but has only a small air chamber so it only holds 30-40 shots.  It works off the hand pump or from a tank or high pressure compressor.  From what I can tell after the first fill to 2000psi it has a range of consistent accuracy down to 1000psi, at which time it usually takes about 40 pumps to top it back up.

I will add that to my cardio routine.  

I got a fantastic deal on a used one from Pyrimid Air.  It had to be a good deal since these freekin' airheads think that anything under $600 is an entry level shooter.  I paid more for this airgun than I did for the last centerfire rifle I bought and that .308 shoots real well.  This pellet rifle better put out some performance!

I also paid for hand inspection and testing of O-rings and seals which I felt should have been normal service on a used shooter but if they do not consider it such the price for the service was so cheap I did not really care.  They check the shooter over, pressure test it, fire 10 rounds for group and chrono average, and I am sure that is a well used service for people that do not have a chrono.  I will use it to check the validity of my own numbers when I run my own checks.

For the past week I have been shooting my springer in the back yard and really enjoying not having the worry of disturbing anyone.  I now have one neighbor that works nights and I do not wish to bother his sleep so my .22lr has been silent for a few months due to cold weather and courtesy.

My Beeman is a fairly good shooter but I have not been really satisfied with the accuracy it gives and after a really thorough chrono session I now understand why.  The velocities bounce around over a range of 75fps, from 800-875/880.  I had one shot top 900fps.  It does OK at the standard 33 feet but when you stretch out to 25 yards the group opens to better than 2".

I really should not gripe, since my Ruger 10/22 shot 3" groups at 25 when I started working on it!

I suppose I am in the middle of it now!  A whole new world of spending has opened for me,,,PCP rifles and night vision devices.

----------


## Antonyraison

PCP is probably the way to go! 
I will likely upgrade to pcp upon a time.
Compressed air is Far more consistent to shoot with than co2
Good choice.

----------


## kyratshooter

One of the reasons I chose the rifle I did was that it is not a "high pressure" rifle.  While some of the top end PCP guns are pressurized to 3000-4000psi mine is only charged to 2000psi. 

That means that I can recharge my rifle with a special hand pump here at home.  It is much like the old pump up rifles that were "state of the art" back in the 1950s and '60s, only you pump it once and shoot it all day.

I will still be getting 800-900fps with each shot, but I will not get but 15-25 shots before I have to recharge.

I also have the option of recharging from a scuba tank, a special carbon fiber recharge tank or straight from a hi-pressure compressor.  I will probably go with one of the tank options latter.  They are quite expensive even though very convenient.

Buying a compressor is about out of the question, they cost about $4000 and I do not see that much airgun shooting in my future.  

For $4000 I can buy the top five guns on my "always wished I owned one of those" list!

----------


## jim Glass

61K2H5WuOiL__SL1500_.jpg  :Ohmy:  :Ohmy:  :Ohmy: 

Those are only $219 at Amazon.com

I would like to find something like that in .30 cal.   Plenty of places in Florida to fill scuba tanks.

We must now find a way to build a low cost compressor   :Idea:

----------


## Antonyraison

Yeah only reason I havent gotten into pcp is the cost of a  filling station or scuba tank etc..

----------


## kyratshooter

The Chinese have already solved that problem!  I just found these today while surfing Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NdnItyJs-U&t=618s


The price has gone up a little since this video was made but they are still cheaper than buying a carbon fiber tank, or even a SCUBA tank and the valves.  

Tanks also have all kinds of restrictions on them and not every town has a dive shop or even a paintball store that does high pressure refills.  If a tank is more than 15 years old they can not be refilled commercially.

When you buy a compressor you can get used scba tanks off Ebay that are out of date but still good and fill them yourself.  Since they have been trashed by the fire departments due to only being out of date they are still usable but sell for $25-$50 rather than the $500-$700 for new ones.

You can use the compressor to fill the tank and then fill the gun or you can fill the gun right off the compressor.

At $250-$300 for a small compressor that is about the same as 1K 5.56 or 7.62x39 ammo and I have been paying $430 per 1K for .308.  I think I will just absorb the cost like I would any other ammo purchase, except it should last a lifetime and blow up a car tire in about 10 seconds!  

I picked up two cans of pellets last week and that 1000 chunks of lead set me back a whooping $15.  Some of that will be recovered since I have a target trap that retains spent pellets for use in the yard and I will cast the scrap into other bullets.

BTW, if air guns are not really firearms do I have to subtract the cost of all this air gun gear from my regular guns and ammo budget?  I still have other craves going.

----------


## jim Glass

> BTW, if air guns are not really firearms do I have to subtract the cost of all this air gun gear from my regular guns and ammo budget?  I still have other craves going.


I would say NO, air guns are a separate hobby from powder burning guns.     Kinda like playing golf.   I refer to my air gun as "my BB gun" to put the family in the right state of mind.

The Youtube video of the homemade air gun needs to be forwarded to all the anti-gun people.

----------


## kyratshooter

OK, good to get that all cleared up, there might be a sale or something that needed quick attention.  

Thompson Center might have another rebate deal or something and I still need a .243.

----------


## Antonyraison

And I agree air guns are a separate thing..  :Smile:

----------


## ScopedIn

Ah, it seems many have given you good advice. But I didn't see anyone mention the 230 foot pounds of muzzle energy from the .50 air gun. Yes, I said .50 caliber. But you don't need that info, right?

----------


## Antonyraison

> Ah, it seems many have given you good advice. But I didn't see anyone mention the 230 foot pounds of muzzle energy from the .50 air gun. Yes, I said .50 caliber. But you don't need that info, right?


I heard of them.. but sheesh I rather get a proper rifle if I need that kind of power, likely would be a lot cheaper too  :Smile:

----------


## kyratshooter

You are correct about that Antony.

The .50 caliber starts at $700 U.S. and goes up from there.

Add to that the need for a pressure tank to feed it, because it only gets a couple of shots per fill, and the compressor to feed the tank which equalizes very quickly at the rate of use of the tank.

Gun $700 + scope cost
Tank and regulator $400
Compressor  $400-$4000

And this is not considered a "back yard friendly air rifle".  You are going to use it like any big game gun, which is on the hunt.

Then you factor in the fact that a .50 black powder muzzle loader shooting the same 180 grain round ball at 1500 fps, which is a moderate load, produces 800 ft/lbs energy, or the .50 S&W which produces 2800 ft/lb energy and the .50 air gun does not seem such a mighty beast.  Its 230 ft/lb is the same as a .38 special revolver load.

It is easy to get over enthused over these air gun numbers until you compare them to "real guns".

Even the .22 and .177 rifles, at their most powerful, are barely up to rim fire CB cap performance levels.  Most are well below that figure, and the very best of them can barely touch the power of a .22 short standard velocity.

----------


## Antonyraison

> You are correct about that Antony.
> 
> The .50 caliber starts at $700 U.S. and goes up from there.
> 
> Add to that the need for a pressure tank to feed it, because it only gets a couple of shots per fill, and the compressor to feed the tank which equalizes very quickly at the rate of use of the tank.
> 
> Gun $700 + scope cost
> Tank and regulator $400
> Compressor  $400-$4000
> ...


True... saying that I picked up a cheap used .177 springer used... hahaha It is just for fun also and messing around couldnt say no at like 45usd

----------


## ScopedIn

> You are correct about that Antony.
> 
> The .50 caliber starts at $700 U.S. and goes up from there.
> 
> Add to that the need for a pressure tank to feed it, because it only gets a couple of shots per fill, and the compressor to feed the tank which equalizes very quickly at the rate of use of the tank.
> 
> Gun $700 + scope cost
> Tank and regulator $400
> Compressor  $400-$4000
> ...


The old "compared to firearms" argument. Of course, no debater would be left unprepared for this. My rebuttle? 

YOURE STUPID! Lmao. No, I'm not that childish, just figured I'd put on an act. 

Yes, compared to a true firearm it is no champion but among air guns it stands in it's own class. Mind you, not all of us can own a powder burning gun. I'm one of those many who, due to being stupid when I was younger, cannot own a firearm. So for me, the Sam Yang Dragonclaw .50 is very much a viable option for me when it comes to hunting bigger game. As well, there is no need for a compressor or separate air tank as it has dual air tanks which can hold 500 cc of air, giving me a few shots on full power. Or several on lower power. It can be refilled with a basic bicycle pump as well.

As for the ammo, I would prefer the 210 grain hollow points or round nose pellets. I can cast my own ammo without having to worry about powder or reloading equipment. It also requires less regular maintenance than a firearm. It's quite than a regular firearm as well.

At 50 yards or less, why would I need a scope on it to shoot a deer? It has iron sights that are accurate enough to take a heart shot on a deer at 50 yards and drop it in it's tracks. There are also arrows you can get to turn it into an air bow for more versatility. The ammo is far cheaper than most firearms ammo as well. Though less readily available in stores.

Given proper precaution, it can be a backyard gun if you have very few neighbors and buildings. A .22 air rifle is a backyard gun, I'm not talking about a backyard gun. I'm talking about something that can be considered for a survival tool to hunt with while staying under the radar compared to the report of a firearm.

----------


## kyratshooter

Well that answers a lot of questions.  

However, I will just go on using my air guns for what I bought them for, recreational plinking and pest control, while I hunt big and small game with the real guns I bought for that purpose.

No real need for me to press a substitute into a roll for which it is not really suited.

----------


## Antonyraison

> Well that answers a lot of questions.  
> 
> However, I will just go on using my air guns for what I bought them for, recreational plinking and pest control, while I hunt big and small game with the real guns I bought for that purpose.
> 
> No real need for me to press a substitute into a roll for which it is not really suited.


Same here why I have air guns.

----------


## Antonyraison

> The old "compared to firearms" argument. Of course, no debater would be left unprepared for this. My rebuttle? 
> 
> YOURE STUPID! Lmao. No, I'm not that childish, just figured I'd put on an act. 
> 
> Yes, compared to a true firearm it is no champion but among air guns it stands in it's own class. Mind you, not all of us can own a powder burning gun. I'm one of those many who, due to being stupid when I was younger, cannot own a firearm. So for me, the Sam Yang Dragonclaw .50 is very much a viable option for me when it comes to hunting bigger game. As well, there is no need for a compressor or separate air tank as it has dual air tanks which can hold 500 cc of air, giving me a few shots on full power. Or several on lower power. It can be refilled with a basic bicycle pump as well.
> 
> As for the ammo, I would prefer the 210 grain hollow points or round nose pellets. I can cast my own ammo without having to worry about powder or reloading equipment. It also requires less regular maintenance than a firearm. It's quite than a regular firearm as well.
> 
> At 50 yards or less, why would I need a scope on it to shoot a deer? It has iron sights that are accurate enough to take a heart shot on a deer at 50 yards and drop it in it's tracks. There are also arrows you can get to turn it into an air bow for more versatility. The ammo is far cheaper than most firearms ammo as well. Though less readily available in stores.
> ...


Makes a lot of sense for certain people. No Doubt!

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## Antonyraison

> The old "compared to firearms" argument. Of course, no debater would be left unprepared for this. My rebuttle? 
> 
> YOURE STUPID! Lmao. No, I'm not that childish, just figured I'd put on an act. 
> 
> Yes, compared to a true firearm it is no champion but among air guns it stands in it's own class. Mind you, not all of us can own a powder burning gun. I'm one of those many who, due to being stupid when I was younger, cannot own a firearm. So for me, the Sam Yang Dragonclaw .50 is very much a viable option for me when it comes to hunting bigger game. As well, there is no need for a compressor or separate air tank as it has dual air tanks which can hold 500 cc of air, giving me a few shots on full power. Or several on lower power. It can be refilled with a basic bicycle pump as well.
> 
> As for the ammo, I would prefer the 210 grain hollow points or round nose pellets. I can cast my own ammo without having to worry about powder or reloading equipment. It also requires less regular maintenance than a firearm. It's quite than a regular firearm as well.
> 
> At 50 yards or less, why would I need a scope on it to shoot a deer? It has iron sights that are accurate enough to take a heart shot on a deer at 50 yards and drop it in it's tracks. There are also arrows you can get to turn it into an air bow for more versatility. The ammo is far cheaper than most firearms ammo as well. Though less readily available in stores.
> ...


No PCP I have seen is fillible with an ordinary bicycle pump.
I have seen the stirrup pumps they use that are possible to fill things up to 4500 psi, they look like a bicycle stirrup pump, but they are not..
And they about the same price as a dive tank.

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## kyratshooter

I went the hand pump route myself but I have my eye on a small high pressure compressor at the moment, since my back porch shooting is requiring a LOT of pumping.  

Dive tanks or scba tanks are convenient but expensive and you are still chained to an air source, such as a dive shop, for your high pressure fills.  

My little 100cc gun tube requires 200 pumps for a full fill to 3000psi and if I top it off when it falls to 1000 psi that takes 50 pumps.  Power falls off sharply at 1000psi so there is no use going below that level.

It is not like 50 pumps with a bicycle pump either, the HP pump needed for PCP guns is a three stage pump that operates on both strokes, up and down, and compresses the air at three levels.  I have to put all my considerable weight into it just to reach the last few pounds of pressure to reach 3000psi.  You also have to pump slowly so the air can travel between the pump chambers, so it takes a while.  I then have about 25 shots at 900fps, but I had to work for them.

After 50 pumps in about five minutes the pump is so hot you can not touch it.  A 500cc bottle on a hand pump would take all day, and from empty I would suspect 700-1000 pump strokes and the pump would be hot enough to fire up char cloth.

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## Rick

Man! I need a nap just reading that. That's waaaaay too much work just to shoot a pellet. Way to much work.

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## kyratshooter

> Man! I need a nap just reading that. That's waaaaay too much work just to shoot a pellet. Way to much work.


That is why my next big purchase is going to be the compressor!  

Cost of the compressor is equal to 500 rounds of .308 so I am going to work that into the normal ammo budget.  

I was at the range this morning and it was really hot!  It is still early in the season too.  If I am shooting off the back porch I can run inside and soak up some AC every few minutes and the ice maker is always right there.

There is also the loading and unloading of the truck and trips back and forth to and from the vehicle to the shooting benches.  It gets to be a real hassle.

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## jim Glass

I like my Ruger Yukon.   With black bird season in full swing I'm scoring about 2 birds a day.   No visible impact on the neighborhood black bird population!!   Seems like more of them every day.

Going to test fire my 300 Blackout reloads today using the 4227 powder.    An adjustable gas block on order.

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## Rick

You just wait, Jim. It's all fun and games now. Then the birds eat that toxic algae. 

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## kyratshooter

I just made a discovery!

You can throw you back out by cocking a break barrel, magnum, spring piston air rifle! 

I think pumping up the PCP is easier and less painful.

I ran some test targets using RWS, Beeman, JSB and Crossman pellets yesterday,  I was shooting off sandbags using a table, out of the shed down to the target.  I was also shooting 10 shot groups.

RWS and Beeman got smaller than 1" groups out of the Stormrider.  They are both 14.5 grain pellets at nearly 900fps.  The groups were a nice consistent cluster.  The Beeman was shooting .84" and the RWS was going 1.04".  On another day it might have been reversed.

The Crossman pellets were three times that group size.  I would have two or three real close, then a flier that opened the group up to 2.5".  That is one reason I was shooting 10 shot groups.  I had been getting one good five shot group, then a horrible group that had me wondering about both my scope and rifle.  They have absolutely zero quality control.   No more Walmart pellets for me.  Not even good enough to use in an emergency!  They are worse than bulk packed .22lr.  

The JSB pellets are phenomenal!  18 grain heavy domed pellets made in the Czech Republic, probably by golden haired virgins, since they group at .580" out of my little rifle.  They cost 4X the price of Crossman pellets and are worth every penny of it. $18 per 500.  

Even the RWS and Beeman brands were uniform enough to make good rat shooting possible and they do not cost but a fraction more than the Walmart fodder.

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## Antonyraison

JSB's are very nice, I was using I think the 16 grain diablo's this weekend, wow.. insanely accurate..

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## kyratshooter

PCP and CO2 rifles seem to prefer the heavier pellets, from 16 grains up.  It seems to be something about how the gas flows through a PCP barrel as a push rather than a slam like the springers do.

One thing has become evident.  At the accuracy level these rifles operate I am going to need smaller targets.  I am thinking something along the lines of an aspirin tablet inside the 25 yard mark.

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## jim Glass

Seriously???

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## kyratshooter

Yep seriously.

These air guns have some serious capabilities in the accuracy department.  The Olympic air rifles are claimed to be the most accurate guns in the world. 

10M air rifle shoots at a target 10 ring that is .5mm.  It is absolutely the size of the period at the end of a sentence.  The 9 ring is black and about 5mm diameter with a little .5mm white spot in the center that is the bullseye.  No scopes, just target peep sights.

I am not that good.  Never have been, never will be.

Field target rules (very much like field archery) allow knock down reducers of 15mm out to 20 meters (5/8"@22 yards), 25mm (1") bull out to 35 meters and 40mm bull at 35-50 meters.  That requires 1 1/2" accuracy at 55 yards and they are not shooting from sandbags or a bench.

Field target has several divisions and classes so you can get into that and shoot with people that are just as bad as you are!

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## Antonyraison

> Yep seriously.
> 
> These air guns have some serious capabilities in the accuracy department.  The Olympic air rifles are claimed to be the most accurate guns in the world. 
> 
> 10M air rifle shoots at a target 10 ring that is .5mm.  It is absolutely the size of the period at the end of a sentence.  The 9 ring is black and about 5mm diameter with a little .5mm white spot in the center that is the bullseye.  No scopes, just target peep sights.
> 
> I am not that good.  Never have been, never will be.
> 
> Field target rules (very much like field archery) allow knock down reducers of 15mm out to 20 meters (5/8"@22 yards), 25mm (1") bull out to 35 meters and 40mm bull at 35-50 meters.  That requires 1 1/2" accuracy at 55 yards and they are not shooting from sandbags or a bench.
> ...


Well I can shoot a match inside of 15m with my rifle.. that are indeed insanely accurate, and mine is not even something you would really compete with.

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## rebel

http://www.warecountygators.net/spor...20180429s49244

They took the old elementary gym and made a shooting complex. I go by it almost daily. It’s pretty nice. Good to see some schools promoting shooting competition. I was pricing their air rifles and WOW! About 4K.

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## Rick

Those are some pretty impressive numbers turned in by some pretty young folks!

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## kyratshooter

It is really impressive, especially considering that they young woman winning the state championship is a freshman!

That means she is only 14-15 and most shooters do not reach their top performance until they are around 30!

It would be nice if some interested party with the proper funds gave her a good pep talk and offered to sponsor her through high school and into the college level through the Olympic youth stages and on to national representation at the top levels.  There are only two or three relatively unknown colleges in the nation that have top level shooting programs complete with scholarship funding.

One of the reasons we get clobbered in the international shooting competitions is that we do not start training at the junior high level and have organized programs for young top level national shooters.  

We can not front an Olympic biathlon team that can do better than 30 out of 31 in international competition, and we are supposed to be saturated with a "gun culture".  Our only solace is that we can beat the Canadians.

Olympic level women shooters are rock stars in Europe.  The have modeling contracts, own their own fashion lines and get sponsorship from all sorts of marketers.  Watching a biathlon event is like watching runway models on skis clearing 20 out of 20= 4" targets from standing at 50 meters after skiing 12k!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peG3aw2nWQo

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## Antonyraison

> It is really impressive, especially considering that they young woman winning the state championship is a freshman!
> 
> That means she is only 14-15 and most shooters do not reach their top performance until they are around 30!
> 
> It would be nice if some interested party with the proper funds gave her a good pep talk and offered to sponsor her through high school and into the college level through the Olympic youth stages and on to national representation at the top levels.  There are only two or three relatively unknown colleges in the nation that have top level shooting programs complete with scholarship funding.
> 
> One of the reasons we get clobbered in the international shooting competitions is that we do not start training at the junior high level and have organized programs for young top level national shooters.  
> 
> We can not front an Olympic biathlon team that can do better than 30 out of 31 in international competition, and we are supposed to be saturated with a "gun culture".  Our only solace is that we can beat the Canadians.
> ...


I have heard it said many times, females are better shooters than males... Its because they willing to listen and learn and not have an ego take over.. (well that is the reason the person said to me about this)

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## rebel

I heard its because of a lower center of gravity.

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## kyratshooter

Most coaches would rather teach women to shoot than men, but it usually has to do with women lacking the ingrained bad habits developed during years of unschooled shooting.

As Antony pointed out, they take coaching better.

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## rebel

From an Olympic gold medalists :

http://www.google.com/amp/s/riveterm...-shooters/amp/

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## mrmilom1990

I read an article about air rifles and I got this one: *********Appropriate for small game hunting and for competition such as target shooting.

Is air rifle powerful? *****************

Let me know what you think.  :Smile: 

I think your spamming Bangladeshi butt has been banned is what I think.

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## Rick

Crash read an article about banning and he got this.....

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