# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  Minie Balls

## Zack

Had some questions about percussion-type muzzleloaders:

1. Can you use minie ball style bullets in percussion guns?  If so, what is your favorite one to use (link if possible, please)?
2. Do you use a patch when loading them?
3. Minie ball vs. lead ball for deer hunting?
4. Is a minie ball as versatile for hunting, target shooting, and other applications as the lead ball?

If you could answer these questions and add any more info you have, it would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

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## Grizz123

Your best bet is to contact the manufacture of the gun you plan on using

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## hunter63

> Had some questions about modern percussion-type muzzleloaders:
> 
> 1. Can you use minie ball style bullets in modern percussion guns?  If so, what is your favorite one to use (link if possible, please)?
> I don't use mini balls in modern in-line precession......Usually.
> I would suppose you could, but sabots shoot pretty good, and as you only have one shot (hunting)....make the most of it, if possible  
> 
> 2. Do you use a patch when loading them?
> Round balls are patched, mini balls normally not patched, they depend on a expanding base for the seal.
> 
> ...





> Your best bet is to contact the manufacture of the gun you plan on using


Excellent advice........Remember round balls generally shoot better in a slower twist rifling and mini's and sabot on faster twist barrels.
check this out....a discussion on fast vs slow twist.
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/fo...ic.php?t=25336

Mini balls are more like a bullet, but you knew that right?

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## Zack

Good thoughts.  But I was referring to use of minie balls in a sidelock (traditional) muzzleloader, not an inline.  Sorry for the confusion.

I know basically what the minie ball is, only from reading about them in Civil War books.  Know nothing about modern hunting with them though.

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## hunter63

Most side lock rifles are either 1-48 and a few being 1-66  or there about.
As you did not mention brand name...kinda hard to tell.....

The 1-48 is a compromise as it "will" shoot either patched round balls or mini's "OK"
The 1-66 is generally for patched round balls.

Again...look your rifle's manual....most commercial built rifle's have manuals on line....they have to...safety thing....or will send you one.

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## kyratshooter

The twist on minie rifles was usually 1-60 to 1-70.  They are not fast twist guns.  The only time twist affects performance is when the gun is a fast twist and one is shooting a patched round ball on a very heavy charge.  The rifling will strip from contact with the fabric patch when fired.  I get some very good groups with my in-line guns and patched round balls using light charges like one would use for small game.

As for efficiency, the appearance of the minie ball turned the rifle from a 200 yard round ball delivery system to an 800 yard sniper tool.  Only the sighting systems of that time limited the long range performance out to 800-1000 yards.  At the battle of Petersburg the Confederate shooters were blasting holes in the Union laundry hanging on the lines at more than 800 yards.  They could see movement and took it to be people, not realizing they were shooting at clothes hanging on a line.

However, you are not going to find too many .45 or .50 caliber minie balls around, which are the most common new made ML rifle calibers.  They were and still are normally made in .58 with an occasional .62 being found.  I have one Kentucky Rifle set up for minies and it is a .58 flintlock with 1/70 twist.  I still wind up shooting round balls out of it because the contests I shoot in require RB. 

As Hunter stated, we have excellent sabot rounds available today and they perform very well and are very accurate in most modern rifles, even the side-locks with 1/48 twist.

Take the path of least resistance and go with the sabots.  Minies are a pain to cast anyway.

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## hunter63

Thanks for clearing that up......never could get that straight.......fast/ slow.....
BIL CVA Hawken shot mini's very well. where my T/C shot patched round ball better....as far as I know they both were 1-48.

He like the minis as he didn't have to patch them....one less step.

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## Zack

> Most side lock rifles are either 1-48 and a few being 1-66  or there about.
> As you did not mention brand name...kinda hard to tell.....
> 
> The 1-48 is a compromise as it "will" shoot either patched round balls or mini's "OK"
> The 1-66 is generally for patched round balls.
> 
> Again...look your rifle's manual....most commercial built rifle's have manuals on line....they have to...safety thing....or will send you one.


I'm not too sure about the history of the rifles (got them together for a good price).  When I know more, I will provide the info I have.  My bad.

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## Zack

> The twist on minie rifles was usually 1-60 to 1-70.  They are not fast twist guns.  The only time twist affects performance is when the gun is a fast twist and one is shooting a patched round ball on a very heavy charge.  The rifling will strip from contact with the fabric patch when fired.  I get some very good groups with my in-line guns and patched round balls using light charges like one would use for small game.
> 
> As for efficiency, the appearance of the minie ball turned the rifle from a 200 yard round ball delivery system to an 800 yard sniper tool.  Only the sighting systems of that time limited the long range performance out to 800-1000 yards.  At the battle of Petersburg the Confederate shooters were blasting holes in the Union laundry hanging on the lines at more than 800 yards.  They could see movement and took it to be people, not realizing they were shooting at clothes hanging on a line.
> 
> However, you are not going to find too many .45 or .50 caliber minie balls around, which are the most common new made ML rifle calibers.  They were and still are normally made in .58 with an occasional .62 being found.  I have one Kentucky Rifle set up for minies and it is a .58 flintlock with 1/70 twist.  I still wind up shooting round balls out of it because the contests I shoot in require RB. 
> 
> As Hunter stated, we have excellent sabot rounds available today and they perform very well and are very accurate in most modern rifles, even the side-locks with 1/48 twist.
> 
> Take the path of least resistance and go with the sabots.  Minies are a pain to cast anyway.


Good info.  never heard that about Petersburg before, but I can believe it.

But when you say that there aren't very many .50 caliber minie balls around, do you mean the ones that came packed with a charge already that they used in the war?  I never saw one of those for modern use before, but a quick search online found these:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoot..._SEQ_104547780

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Thomp...s#BVQAWidgetID

Are these minie balls that you are referring to?  Because these are the loads that I was hoping to get info about in the OP.

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## hunter63

I think you need to google "mini balls"......they are really just a type of bullet.
The only charged bullet I know of was made by the Volcanic Repeating Arms Company that had the load in the base of the bullet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Repeating_Arms

You are referring to a cartridge that was powder, ball, possibly pre-rolled in a paper?
Pretty common but not available for sale as far as I know....you need to roll you own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge

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## kyratshooter

Hunter is correct, you need to google minie balls.

What you are referencing are not minie balls, they are solid projectiles made to full bore diameter and they are forced into the rifling to create a measure of efficiency slightly better than the patched round ball.  

They are muzzle loading bullets, not minie balls.  The concept has been around since the 1400s when some of the competition rifle shooters used a steel ramrod to hammer the bullet into the bore and seat it on the powder charge.  It was here in America where the system was changed to include an undersized ball and a greased patch to give some of the accuracy with easier loading.

Minies are cast a fraction undersized for ease in loading and have a hollow base which expands to fill the bore and take the rifling.  

Most ML in-line shooters skip over the TC maxiball, Buffalo bullets and Lee REAL bullet technology and go straight to the plastic saboted bullets, which are about as good as the technology gives us at this time.  They are just as accurate and are much easier to load.  

The only benefit of the TC and Lee bullets is that you can buy a mold and cast your own.  That might be handy in a zombie apocalypse but has little benefit for the average hunter.  But you can buy a round ball mold and have easier loading with completely adequate power.

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## crashdive123

Oh.......you guys are talking about guns.


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## hunter63

....And the giraffe is the only animal in the world that can say........"The high balls are on me...."

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## Zack

> I think you need to google "mini balls"......they are really just a type of bullet.
> The only charged bullet I know of was made by the Volcanic Repeating Arms Company that had the load in the base of the bullet.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Repeating_Arms
> 
> You are referring to a cartridge that was powder, ball, possibly pre-rolled in a paper?
> Pretty common but not available for sale as far as I know....you need to roll you own.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge


Ok.  I am sorry for the confusion.  Do you have anyy experience with those types of bullets ("lead conicals")?

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## Zack

> Most ML in-line shooters skip over the TC maxiball, Buffalo bullets and Lee REAL bullet technology and go straight to the plastic saboted bullets, which are about as good as the technology gives us at this time.  They are just as accurate and are much easier to load.


I was told that traditional muzzleloaders only use lead balls and bullets like the T/C and Hornady loads mentioned above, not sabots.  Do you have success (both in accuracy and in harvesting game) with sabots used in a sidelock?

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## hunter63

Only shoot conical's in a Ruger Old Army....made with a Lee Mold.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/612...ter-round-ball

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## Zack

> Only shoot conical's in a Ruger Old Army....made with a Lee Mold.
> http://www.midwayusa.com/product/612...ter-round-ball


Ok.  Do you think tthey're any better than a patched round ball?

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## hunter63

In the Ruger Old Army a revolver.....you don't use patched round balls.

Where are you going with this?
What kind if rifles are they?
What are you gonna do with them?

We are going around in circles with out knowing the purpose.

I use patched rolund balls in most all the percussion and flinters.......about the only miniball/bullet I use is in a Philadelphia Derringer, the barrel is only 1-1/2 long....so trying to hold on to the gun,... and.. patch, ball, and  starter is a pain....so I grease up the base and push it in.

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## kyratshooter

I think the confusion is due to us working with a newbie who has no clue of the terms or procedures for use.

Not that this is a bad thing, it is just causing a circular discussion that is getting nowhere because the OP can not understand the process.

Muzzle loading is not just one type of loading.  There are several types of muzzle loading firearms and they load in different ways.  Revolvers are not loaded the same way rifles are loaded and smoothbores can be loaded with either shot or ball.   

There are also several ways to approach muzzle loading, historical/traditional/modern.  A modern shooter might load a smoothbore with a plastic wad and shot, a traditionalist would insist on fiber and cardboard wads, while a historical re-enactor might use dry grass or a wasp nest for wadding.

I know people that will not have an in-line gun in the house and others that have been killing deer for years and have never fired a side-lock.

It can get very confusing for the new shooter.

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## hunter63

I just saying having a rifle type and use..... may help arrive at logical answer, or answers?

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## Zack

> In the Ruger Old Army a revolver.....you don't use patched round balls.
> 
> Where are you going with this?
> What kind if rifles are they?
> What are you gonna do with them?
> 
> We are going around in circles with out knowing the purpose.
> 
> I use patched rolund balls in most all the percussion and flinters.......about the only miniball/bullet I use is in a Philadelphia Derringer, the barrel is only 1-1/2 long....so trying to hold on to the gun,... and.. patch, ball, and  starter is a pain....so I grease up the base and push it in.


Sorry for the confusion.  I really don't mean to be a pain.  Just trying to wrap my head around all the terms and processes.

The rifles are a CVA Hawken (I think) and a CVA Frontier Carbine.  Not too sure about their histories.  Will ask around about the particulars as soon as I can.  But my goal is to have 2 deer rifles to use in the near future.  

The purpose of the original post was to inquire about bullets/conicals and how they compare to patched lead balls for hunting and some target practice and what situations to would use each for.  

Hope that clears things up and again, sorry for the confusion.

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## hunter63

It not a problem....just easier to deal with a starting point.

What caliber are they?

I hunt with a Thompson Center .50 cal. Hawken percussion .....mostly.
Use a .490 lead round ball, .015 pillow ticking patch, 90 gr, 3 F Black power.
Use this load for targets as well....but back off to 60 gr. 3 F BP

Works well, and have killed many deer with it.....
Remember you have one shot....so choose wisely.

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## Zack

> It not a problem....just easier to deal with a starting point.
> 
> What caliber are they?
> 
> I hunt with a Thompson Center .50 cal. Hawken percussion .....mostly.
> Use a .490 lead round ball, .015 pillow ticking patch, 90 gr, 3 F Black power.
> Use this load for targets as well....but back off to 60 gr. 3 F BP
> 
> Works well, and have killed many deer with it.....
> Remember you have one shot....so choose wisely.


Both are .50 caliber

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## Zack

Do you use the round ball just for convenience and cost, Hunter?

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## hunter63

Should be 1-48 twist, and shoot either one, OK

I like the round balls better because they seem to work better for me...in my rifle.

BIL used a mini ball, because he didn't want to fool with patching and such.....and that worked good ....for him in his rifle....a .50 cal CVA Hawken I helped him build.

Cost really doesn't enter it near as much as modern cartridge guns....
You buy the balls, or mini's...the powder and percussion caps....you are gonna shoot a long time.... as it take time to load...one at a time.

Mini's are generally heaver than round balls so drop more with the same powder load....and are somewhat slower.
You don't load up a magazine and rip off 30 rounds in a second or two. 

You can pour your own...but I would get all nuts with that stuff yet if you don't have equipment already.

Midway or Track of the Wolf has just about any dia. ball, mini, bullet you would care to load.
My .490 round balls are like $13 buck per 100...
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/127/2

Mini's a about $12 buck per 25
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/I.../BALL-50-MINIE

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## Zack

> Should be 1-48 twist, and shoot either one, OK
> 
> I like the round balls better because they seem to work better for me...in my rifle.
> 
> BIL used a mini ball, because he didn't want to fool with patching and such.....and that worked good ....for him in his rifle....a .50 cal CVA Hawken I helped him build.
> 
> Cost really doesn't enter it near as much as modern cartridge guns....
> You buy the balls, or mini's...the powder and percussion caps....you are gonna shoot a long time.... as it take time to load...one at a time.
> 
> ...


Sounds like it comes down to individual rifles and situations.  Thanks for the info.

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## hunter63

Yes it does.....
This might help

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## Zack

> Yes it does.....
> This might help


Thanks.  Good stuff in the video.

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## Lamewolf

I've used a 290 grain Minie cast from a Lee mold in my home built 45 cal southern mountain rifle to deer hunt with over 70 grains of 3f black powder.  Don't use patching on the Minie, it is designed to expand and seal the bore when the powder ignites.  I did lube it well with a mixture of beef tallow and beeswax.  Dropped a whitetail in its tracks with the combo and yes its a percussion rifle.

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## kyratshooter

...deleted...

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## kyratshooter

...also deleted...

I was wrong twice today!

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## Zack

> I've used a 290 grain Minie cast from a Lee mold in my home built 45 cal southern mountain rifle to deer hunt with over 70 grains of 3f black powder.  Don't use patching on the Minie, it is designed to expand and seal the bore when the powder ignites.  I did lube it well with a mixture of beef tallow and beeswax.  Dropped a whitetail in its tracks with the combo and yes its a percussion rifle.


Nice job.  You think the minie is any better for deer than the round ball?

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