# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > General Homesteading >  Living in a thermos bottle

## kyratshooter

It got cold last night, down into the 40s, and our high temp for the day yesterday was mid 60s, will be today too.

I have not turned the heat on, yet the inside temp is sitting on 75f degrees.

I can only suppose that this is residual heat from the refrigerator, which is the only appliance operating at this time, and the hot water heater, which is located in a space in the center of the house.

Makes me glad I insulated the crap out of this place when I rebuilt.

Probably time to seal up the windows and prep the pipes and such for the first freeze.

----------


## madmax

82 here.  And about 100 percent humidity.

----------


## crashdive123

What is this thing called freeze of which you speak?

----------


## hunter63

Get a glass.....go to fridge, stick under ice make "thing"...push....the cube (or whatever) come down....and make the drink cold....
Now close you eyes and imagine the lake made out of the same stuff........for Free!

A "frost" is just a taste of the cube.... telling you....It's coming>>>>>>

----------


## kyratshooter

> What is this thing called freeze of which you speak?


You guys can't fool me!  You get cold down there, it just does not last as long as up here.

I nearly froze my butt off in Tampa, at the Alifia rondy the last week of January back in 2012!  Nights in the 20s, days not above 65.

I was not mentally ready for that!

----------


## Batch

In 49 years in the greater Fort Lauderdale area. One night hit 29 degrees.

----------


## Lamewolf

I don't consider it cold until the humidity freezes !

----------


## madmax

> You guys can't fool me!  You get cold down there, it just does not last as long as up here.
> 
> I nearly froze my butt off in Tampa, at the Alifia rondy the last week of January back in 2012!  Nights in the 20s, days not above 65.
> 
> I was not mentally ready for that!


That one was cold.  The wet floor in the hooters in the morning soaked my mocs.

----------


## hunter63

When the talk come around to "being off the grid, solar, wind and hydro power....
Most people will get much more benefit from an energy audit......then up grade the weak spots....., insulation, windows, doors .......and appliances....Before spending money on gear and gizmos.

Energy......Easier to save it, rather than make it.

----------


## kyratshooter

I agree.

I am sitting here in the house with an outside temp of 59 and drizzling rain.  Inside temp is 73 and the only heat I have used today was the big eye of the stove being turned on for cooking breakfast.  

I have a window fan running to cool things down a bit.

Back in June I realized that I was wasting a great amount of power on my hot water needs.  I live alone and washing dishes once a day and taking a shower does not really mandate a supply of 160 degree hot water round the clock.  I dialed the heater back to 120 and added a timer.  The HWH holds temp for 24 hours without problem so I still have hot water round the clock.  My power bill was reduced by $15 a month in July, August and Sept.  Paid for the timer by month two.

That is an annual saving of 6,000 primers, or 10 pounds of powder or a half case of AK ammo!

----------


## madmax

We have a slide in camper that will make your ears pop when you slam the door. The heater and the AC will run you out if left on too long.  It was built in Canada.  I don't know why I added that.  Anyway sealed seams and conserving energy is the way to go.

----------


## Rick

You know you are a survivalist when you count your savings in primers and powder.

----------


## kyratshooter

Now this is working against me at this point!

I woke this morning to find the temps at 67 outdoors and 63 inside!  It has been down in the 40s every night and now I am retaining cold instead of heat!

This is the time of year when I wind up with the heat on at night and the AC on in the afternoon.

----------


## madmax

So I need to bring long pants to the Jamboree?

----------


## hunter63

> So I need to bring long pants to the Jamboree?


Maybe just put on the shirt......?

Does get chilly that time of year around there.....
Few years back at an earlier Jamboree, I saw Kyrat show up with a propane bottle on the bumper luggage carrier....Then sitting out side the tent.
Thought, "Oh, Oh"...glad I brought blankets.

----------


## kyratshooter

Yes there will be propane heaters in use!  It was 43 degrees here last night.

I usually bring my extra large zero bag for any October event and an extra blanket just in case.

You might not need long pants but you would probably be advised to bring socks.

You will need a jacket for sitting around the fire at night too.

Crash times the event so he can get his autumn color and cold weather fix for the year.  He is originally from Yankee land and has to remind himself why he left once a year.

----------


## ronjnk

I don't know Kyratshooter, living in a thermos sounds pretty good to me. At least better than a freezer. We recently got back from the semi-annual supply run just in time to enjoy two snow storms this past week which gave us a couple inches each. We were lucky since the forecast was for considerably more. But the ground and trees are covered and it's way too soon for this nonsense. 

Wed and Thurs might see highs of upper 20's and lows around 15. Winter is showing up early this year. Only once have we seen the lake frozen over by the end of October and this might be another one of those years. We'll see. Enjoy those balmy temperatures you have while you can.

----------


## Staying Alive Comedy

When I read the title of your post this is what I pictured in my head:  thermos.jpg

 :Lol:

----------


## madmax

LOL.  Well if it gets in the low 40's I might break out the synth pile and a Hudson blankey.  I don't think the dog soldiers will be checking for "period correct".  Plus I have a 50 # heatalator.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

We were younger and lighter back then.

----------


## M118LR

Back in the early 70's I sent relatives in Worcester Mass. a X-mass card with a tiny (1 inch X 1 inch) bit of Hawaiian white sand. I wrote that they should warm the sand to 85 degrees and relax on it. Wished they were here. 

The next year they sent me an X-mas card with a sandwich bag filled with water. Their instructions told me to place it in the freezer until it became hard and sit on it. They wished I was there.

----------


## WalkingTree

Ok, I hadn't much interesting to throw in lately, but now this thread made me think of some things, including some questions...

Makes me think - I really like Oklahoma (central)...because of how the weather can change a bit in any season (keep you on your toes and never be boring), and I love thunderstorms. Rain, and thunder (as opposed to Oregon or Washington where people tell me it rains a lot but thunder and lightning is rare). While we also do get all 4 seasons...spring, summer, fall, winter. As I understand it, it's all because we have 4 ecoregions converging over us. Four areas of different more regular weather tendencies always wrestling over what kind to give us.

Yes, I've been one of those wanna be storm chaser idiots.

But...I *believe* I like Oklahoma. A question for some of you who've traveled a bit wider than me - While technically Ok is supposed to have the most ecoregions of the contiguous US states, isn't there somewhere else with equally dynamic weather other than going to the other side of the world somewhere? (and other than Alaska which I assume is still more predominated by colder temps for longer terms.)

I remember when I came to be "at peace" with being really cold (*hate* being cold). Spent a full winter in a rural location, with a relatively colder microclimate. An older house with only an iron wood stove. No hope of warming much airspace, so we didn't try. Shut all the doors and just kept the area around the stove 'warmish'. Shut the stove's vents at night so it'd have coals in the morning to start up again with. The air in my bedroom was permanently frozen, could always see your breath when you went in there. Bedtime was me getting under several blankets and freezing for a few minutes, but then my body warmed it all up and that's how I stayed warm at night. Every night for months. Using my body as the heater and retaining that heat. A big thing that was an adjustment for me was coming in from the frozen outdoors, or getting out of bed, and *not* being able to warm myself or my feet next to some stove. Just didn't really work that way (We didn't keep the stove blazing, but "just warm enough" and didn't waste our firewood). Being very uncomfortably cold and not having the refuge of getting warmed back up...having to accept that my feet are going to stay cold, and my boots too, day after day for months, was a psychological journey. It trips me out that I can do that now and it's "ok".

We are now in what I call the magic time here. Sept. to Dec. Relatively nice weather for a good period of time. Not hot, romantically cool winds, but not really cold either. Per it being Oklahoma, there'll be days which are exceptions one way or the other, but it's not relentless. Any *real* winter usually (usually) won't hit till February. Heck sometimes, as far as frozen precipitation is concerned, we'll only get a 2 week period of that and that'll be in February...though other years it can be quite different and for longer periods.

Questions - I'm not looking for precision so don't care to do real research, only a rough idea from in here for an idle curiosity. Say you have the kind of underground space about the size of a larger storm cellar which is built to benefit from the Earth's regulating temps. Then you have another space above ground about the same size and insulated decently. With gentle/slow air flow - intaking from outdoors, to underground space, to above ground space, then out - could something this simple and passive really keep the above ground space warmish in winter and coolish in summer? (would a heat exchanger be required to make much difference?)

Also, I believe that the R-value of things like concrete and sand and metals is low (earth is only a good insulator because/when you use so much of it). If disregarding sheets of modern materials as options, is there anything to fill a wall of concrete blocks with to make much difference?

----------


## hunter63

Lot of stuff out there about earth sheltered homes, shelter, barns etc.
My inspiration for a location of our "Place" (land) I used The Mother Earth News Magazine  project house...."My Mother's House" 
Common term in the day was "earthship"

Was out lined in many on going articles starting in 1981...and followed the planning and building along with problems such as zoning and building inspectors...(was approved as a basement).

http://www.motherearthnews.com/green...e-zmaz81jazraw
Your buried bin of rocks (heat sink) ventilated floor.....with buried air intake pipes, located down hill (think was like 2-300 foot culverts)

Draw conditioned air (55 degrees under ground) year around by convection.....house is vented at roof peak........controlled by open and closing dampers.

House was built as a project with many heating cooling options for display and trials reviews in the magazine.
House was outside Hendersonville N.C. at the now defunct Mother Earth News Eco Village 800 acres.....(actually few miles from our campsite location for the 2013 WSF Jamboree) 
So that had your passive heat/cool system and could very well include a storm shelter....If my memory serves...think the was a underground equipment and cool fruit cellar?.....

We had a chance to visit it on a trip 1984...... camped there and stayed for week, taking in classes on many or the subjects from the magazine. 
 We were impressed so in looking for our land ....
My own search criteria was:

100-300 mile out for city house (1 tanks of fuel)

South facing hill side with road access...Min 5 acres (is 10)

On a creek, stream, lake, pond or river..... (Kickapoo)

Power at the road....going off grid should be a decision, not a necessary....make life easier when working on it.

Reasonable price...to pay off...

All went well but when building opted for the Amish Log cabin rather then the earthship...cost and land convent, local zoning hassles.

So you idea of 1/2 up and 1/2 down is a valid used concept.

----------


## M118LR

> Questions - I'm not looking for precision so don't care to do real research, only a rough idea from in here for an idle curiosity. Say you have the kind of underground space about the size of a larger storm cellar which is built to benefit from the Earth's regulating temps. Then you have another space above ground about the same size and insulated decently. With gentle/slow air flow - intaking from outdoors, to underground space, to above ground space, then out - could something this simple and passive really keep the above ground space warmish in winter and coolish in summer? (would a heat exchanger be required to make much difference?)
> 
> Also, I believe that the R-value of things like concrete and sand and metals is low (earth is only a good insulator because/when you use so much of it). If disregarding sheets of modern materials as options, is there anything to fill a wall of concrete blocks with to make much difference?


Warm air 55 degrees in the winter, cool air 55 degrees in the summer. To make it work the underground space must feed into the empty chambers of the cinder-block walls. Duel exhaust fans at the peak of the roof will assist in providing an updraft during the summer. A sun or Florida room with a heat transfer floor, will increase the radiance of heat during the winter.

----------


## hunter63

Winter heat is enhanced for 55 degree to 72 (or whatever) is only a 17 degree increase in needed added energy.....with the same cooling  effect.

----------


## M118LR

> Winter heat is enhanced for 55 degree to 72 (or whatever) is only a 17 degree increase in needed added energy.....with the same cooling  effect.


Structural integrity is maintained easily at 55 degrees, creature comfort may be optimized at 72 degrees, but survival at 55 degrees air temperature can effectively last a lifetime with nothing more than a kudlik!

----------


## Rick

I'm not certain what you mean by "dynamic weather". That can cover a lot of territory. 

In your scenario, the one factor that will change you dynamics is humidity. Wet air feels warmer, dry air feels cooler. It's that whole bouncing molecule thingy again. Anyway, if you are drawing cool air from your root cellar and have a nice rainstorm the groundwater will change the humidity and the "feel" of the air.

----------


## M118LR

> I'm not certain what you mean by "dynamic weather". That can cover a lot of territory. 
> 
> In your scenario, the one factor that will change you dynamics is humidity. Wet air feels warmer, dry air feels cooler. It's that whole bouncing molecule thingy again. Anyway, if you are drawing cool air from your root cellar and have a nice rainstorm the groundwater will change the humidity and the "feel" of the air.


It's about insulation properties Rick, dry air is a a better insulator. The higher the humidity the lower the insulation property. Ever ran a dehumidifier in the winter? Talk about static shock! Why is snow such a better insulator than liquid water?

----------


## Rick

That's what I said. Bouncing molecule thingy. Don't you know science speak?

----------


## M118LR

> That's what I said. Bouncing molecule thingy. Don't you know science speak?


Ever heard that commoner lexicon "Speak Splain"? 

Just how much bouncing do frozen molecules do anyhow?

----------


## hunter63

Verrrrrryyyyy slooooooooow-lllllyyyyy

----------


## Rick

Yeah, what he said. We don't refer to them as bouncy when they are cold. They are referred to as "bounce enabled". They only get bouncy when they warm up. If they get real hot they get into quantum physics. Then they are referred to as "Whoooaaa Nellies!"

----------


## WalkingTree

I love bouncy molecules. More fun than slinkys and silly puddy.

Yea, earthships. They're about the coolest thing ever. I've studied them a bit. I don't have however personal observations to tell me certain specific things, like if an underground chamber does well enough to always have it's air migrate to an above ground space and even keep it regulated enough all by itself with no more than you'd do to adjust the underground area temp anyway.

Not sure if you mean let that air go into the walls, versus the human airspace, but...was thinking the way to passively and low-tech control the humidity "enough" is just letting the air constantly move through like this. Two birds with one stone. Also, I wonder if - with a concrete block wall, instead of completely fill the block spaces, install a few iron pipes as ductwork vertically through those block spaces with intake at the bottom and outlets at the top, and let convection in the summer for example take away enough of the outside heat before it gets a chance to penetrate those walls into the interior airspace?

And dry air versus wet air affecting the interior temp and insulation properties...oh well, don't think it'd be a big difference compared to what a person would be getting concerning power usage and comfort.

----------


## hunter63

Point is: Lots of people have been fooling with all this for quite a while....and have spent the money to try a lot of it out, taking the speculating into the practical.

Was real serious about it my self....but ended up no doing it as it wasn't conceptual methods...so permits were a problem, along with money (no permit, no bank would finance it)

Add the fact  didn't want another mortgage....went a different direction.

----------


## WalkingTree

Those darn permits. The man just keeping us down.

----------


## hunter63

They are there for a reason......supposed to keep us safe, protect us from shoddy contractors.....and create a reason to tax you....LOL
One of the 70's guru's of alternate building....Ken Kern.... met his demise on a collapsed building he designed and built.

http://www.witoldrybczynski.com/arch...ring-ken-kern/

----------


## M118LR

> I don't have however personal observations to tell me certain specific things, like if an underground chamber does well enough to always have it's air migrate to an above ground space and even keep it regulated enough all by itself with no more than you'd do to adjust the underground area temp anyway.
> 
> Not sure if you mean let that air go into the walls, versus the human airspace, but...was thinking the way to passively and low-tech control the humidity "enough" is just letting the air constantly move through like this. Two birds with one stone. Also, I wonder if - with a concrete block wall, instead of completely fill the block spaces, install a few iron pipes as ductwork vertically through those block spaces with intake at the bottom and outlets at the top, and let convection in the summer for example take away enough of the outside heat before it gets a chance to penetrate those walls into the interior airspace?
> 
> And dry air versus wet air affecting the interior temp and insulation properties...oh well, don't think it'd be a big difference compared to what a person would be getting concerning power usage and comfort.


The original question was what to fill concrete block (cinder block) walls with. Moderate temp/humidity airflow within the chambers of the walls will provide better insulation from outside conditions to interior living space. Air is an excellent insulator, especially when kept at moderate temperature and humidity. It won't replace a heat source within the living area during the winter, and it's not an A/C unit. But it can cut down drastically on power consumption.

----------


## WalkingTree

Was kinda thinking the air pockets would be best...but wonder if encouraging convective air flow through the wall would improve or work against it. Would of course be designed to be shut off at will I guess. Me personally, I'd also let ivy stuff to grow all over the outside wall, on a layer of chicken wire or expanded metal. That would make a big difference, in the summer at least. Then some deciduous trees in the right places. etc etc etc.

----------


## hunter63

Ivy eats concrete and brick.......just saying.

----------


## crashdive123

I love customers that cover their homes in ivy.  They will always need service and it will cost a lot.

----------


## hunter63

Our company installed a ew A/c unit....condenser was next od a wall of ivy .......earwigs kept getting caught in the contactor.....
Unit 2-3 months old.....would stop working...he would call, we would go clean them out......all summer.

Finially had to mount the contactor in a separate remote box and just run wires to the unit...

That ivy stuff may look cool...... But a big PITA.

----------


## WalkingTree

> Ivy eats concrete and brick.......just saying.


I was using the word ivy in a generic way. Y'all are right, and I know. Anyway, depends on exactly what kind of viney plant you use. And again that would be on it's own structure as well, not the concrete.

----------


## Operator6

> It got cold last night, down into the 40s, and our high temp for the day yesterday was mid 60s, will be today too.
> 
> I have not turned the heat on, yet the inside temp is sitting on 75f degrees.
> 
> I can only suppose that this is residual heat from the refrigerator, which is the only appliance operating at this time, and the hot water heater, which is located in a space in the center of the house.
> 
> Makes me glad I insulated the crap out of this place when I rebuilt.
> 
> Probably time to seal up the windows and prep the pipes and such for the first freeze.


Just cooked off here this morning.  It was 87 degrees yesterday in Mississippi.

----------


## 1983

For the block walls I've seen them filled with vermiculite or blow in insulation before, You could also get 1" foam board and tack them on the outside of the wall before you back fill and maybe tar the loving hell out of the blocks before you put on the foam.

Also proper drainage should help allot as well for a house foundation, Planing on rebuilding my house soon seeing how the basement is a complete write off of a mess I'll be pouring new footings 3' away from the existing structure and building a 3' knee wall and building a shell around my existing shack and demolishing the old place from the roof down as I build the new one second floor to first.

Around the 3' knee wall I'm planing on insulating the wall with 1" Styrofoam then building large raised garden boxes around those knee walls for an added layer of insulation with concrete pads under the boxes leading away from the house to a weeping tile.

Once that's all said and done put the wood stove in the basement and turn my place dang near into a sweat box instead of the drafty old shack it currently works as.

Also FFT for people caught with no way of fixing current heating issues when I was homeless but had an unheated garage to sleep in I pushed and old couch facing inwards towards the wall and shoved a foam mattress in there to form a "U" to sleep in.
Sleeping bag, Winter coat, and some cardboard over top kept me in retaliative comfort although my face was still cold in the morning.

----------

