# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  Your thoughts on pre-made "survival kits"

## NightShade

So, I've seen all these survival bags online.  Pre-made with "everything you need to survive" from anywhere from 1 day to 1 year. Some of them are obvious ripoffs with cheesy gear I wouldn't take with me on a walk to my neighbor's house (a few 100 yds.)  But I have seen others that seem fairly reasonable priced, with at least halfway decent gear (though I would make a few additions).
     Now I have many,many well outfitted packs, so its not like I'm trying to decide to buy a pack" to survive".. 
      I'm just interested in what you guys and girls think of these pre-packed survival kits.
so what's the verdict?

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## Rick

Personally, if I had no knowledge and found a pack that protected me from whatever I was worried about then I'd buy it. Any preps are better than no preps. I'll bet everyone on here has bought something or several somethings only to wonder why they bought it later on. 

I think a pack that is designed around you and your knowledge is the best world but short of that a pre-made pack is at least a start in the right direction.

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## kyratshooter

Pre-mades offer the untrained a false sense of security.  These kits get purchased, shoved into the closet, never used and the contents never examined.  If you use the contents while trying to learn proper processes, they have to be replaced and the only replacement the untrained know is another premade kit, which was more expense than they really wanted to start with.

I can imagine Dad, huddled on the tornado shelter, reading the instruction book printed on the pack flap by the flame of a bic lighter trying to figure out how to make the chemlite sticks work. 

We have always stressed boots in the field here.  Practice makes perfect and all that.  Premade kits are an emotional bandaid so the average yuppie can feel like they have done everything they could to prepare, when all they did was spend a bit of money.

Buying something, even if it is the best made, does not insure that it will save anyone or anything if no training comes with it.

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## SARKY

Have to agree with kyratshooter, false security is no security at all. Invest in the information and training to build yourself a kit that truly fits your needs and skill level.

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## crashdive123

I agree, to a point with all three responses so far.  A pre-made kit may not include the "exact" items that are needed, but they are something.  I also agree in the false sense of security that can be found in buying gear, but don't believe it is limited to the pre-made kits.  Any gear or equipment that you do not know how to use is useless, just as not having it or being able to reach it is as well.  The pre-made kits do have their place, but IMO that place is a starting point and not a destination.

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## Sarge47

Yeah, I agree with Crash!  Start out with a "pre-made" kit, but don't let it end there.  Think about where you're going to be, then check out the kit to see if it's what you're going to need.  Replace any items that are not germane to your location o r are poor quality.   :Detective:

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Quite honestly, I don't even look at these "Pre-made Survival Kits". Although I did buy a pocket kit from, of all places, "Auto Zone". I bought it just for the container it was packed in!

I have yet to see a reasonably priced, well made "kit". While there may be some out there, I haven't seen them 'cause I haven't looked for them.

IMO too much is dependent on an individuals skill level/skill set. What may be good for ME, May not be good for you as our skill levels/sets are going to be different. It's kinda' like fishing, it all depends on where you're going, and how good you are. Although I do believe there are some "Basics" that are good no matter where you go, who you are, or your skill level/set is. Each "kit" should be designed around the individual using it. Anything beyond "Basics" is TOTALLY dependent on the individual. The basics are covered in all "Survival kits", so it just depends on what you need to bolster your weaknesses. It also depends on what kind of "Survival" you are referring to. A chemical leak would require different stuff that being lost in the nearby woods. Knowledge and improvisation skills are perhaps the two best things in the inventory of anyone wanting to "Survive" anywhere.

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## Canadian-guerilla

whoever is making these pre-kits may be thinking

how can i give the " leastest " and make the " mostest " money


make your own custom/personalized survival kit

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## Rick

While that may be true with some, I don't think all of them are so evil. Doug Ritter teamed up with Adventure Medical Kits to put together a decent little kit. 

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Cost has to be a consideration but then it's a consideration when you buy something isn't it? You want the Kifaru bag at the WalMart price and settle for something in between. 

It's easy to tell folks to build their own kit but how do they do that if they don't have the knowledge? Or would you rather them do without anything until they build the knowledge? Just asking.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Well to be fair, let's look at what's in it...... $34 at the AMK site......
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Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.OK for what's in it, I think this is a fair price. However, I think I could get the major things - Button Compass, Fresnel magnifier, Signal mirror, Rescue whistle, Spark lite, And Snare wire, myself. The scalpel is pretty useless IMO for any uses other than First Aid or skinning an animal. Even skinning the scalpel blade is dangerous without a handle and POTENTIALLY poses as much threat as it does aid to the user.

IMO it should have a space blanket, which it does not. Truthfully? I wouldn't buy it. I've heard "Doug Ritter" but have no clue as to who he is, other than a "Kit Designer". That is the only way I've ever heard of him. "Oh it's this kit designed by Doug Ritter", etc...Unless I priced all those items individually, and this was a better price I wouldn't buy it.

Quite honestly I would rather buy a kit that had the items I chose, AND a Mora or Opinel knife than that kit.... even for more money. I  would then add the other items I felt I needed.

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## Rick

You missed my point. I don't think Doug set out to build a kit with the idea of let me provide the leastest and charge the mostest. I would tend to believe he set to provide an economical kit to cover the bases. No more, no less. 

Doug Ritter is a noted survival expert primarily in the aviation realm. Only recently has he been involved in kit design. 

Here's a link to his site. 

http://www.equipped.org/drbio.htm

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> You missed my point. *I don't think Doug set out to build a kit with the idea of let me provide the leastest and charge the mostest*. I would tend to believe he set to provide an economical kit to cover the bases. No more, no less. 
> 
> Doug Ritter is a noted survival expert primarily in the aviation realm. Only recently has he been involved in kit design.


Oh I agree, I think for what's in it, it's a fair price with the exception of the 2 items - add Survival/emergency blanket, exchange a knife for the scalpel. Still unless it was a better deal for me to buy the kit instead of individual items, _I_ wouldn't buy it. I'd rather build my own, tailored to MY needs/desires.

I guess that's the reason I don't know of him, I'm not an aviator, and I don't fly....without a parachute.

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## Sarge47

In marketing there HAS to be a profit.  Even if you buy components for your own home-made survival kit, somebody made a profit off of what you bought.  I just placed an order with Safe-zone and I hope Rick made a profit...not a large one, mind you, but a modest one.   :2: 

That being said, yes, somebody IS making a profit off of any marketed survival kit.  That's THEIR motivation for making & selling them.  However, if you'd like to learn how to make your own just visit the "Survival kit"  sticky:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ival-kits-info.

A lot of info there that should help!   :Nod:

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Well I figured someone was making a profit. I'm just saying which would be more profitable for ME. :Tt2: 
As I would be buying it for only SOME of the items it contains, and others are unnecessary things I ALREADY have in my possession.

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## Canadian-guerilla

i'm gonna pop over to the dollar store 
and see what kind of survival kit items i would buy for $25

_an idea for another thread ? - pics from each member ?_

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## Rick

Uh, yeah. Modest. Sure. REeeaaaal modest.

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## SARKY

Since AMK is just down the street from me, I have talked to those guys on several occasions. It's funny, because the biggest problems I have with that kit is the scalpel blade, the button compass, the sparklite and the whistle. I don't find those items up to par. Not when you can get a type #27 silva compass (which also eliminates the need for a separate signal mirror), a Gerber ultralite locking folder, a BlastMatch, and a Fox 40 (which works much better than their howler.)

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## hunter63

If you have nothing, (hard for me to imagine) It's a start.......

I guess I just get a kick out of looking at them in the store/on line/catalogs.....kinda like a moth to a flame.....just to see what they have in them.

I have purchased small FAK's and included them in my kits/pockets/vehicles/boats....but mostly I have created my own mostly by finding out the hard way.
"Hey, I really could have used a .....whatever", and in it goes.
And as luck would have it...If you do carry it, won't need it...This time.....Leave it out and you are gonna need it for sure....LOL

BTW, has anyone actually got one of those survival blankets folded back up after unwrapping it? Meaning NOT a snot ball.

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## Rick

That's a great deal like putting popcorn back in the kernel.

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## LowKey

With a 'survival' kit, I tend to start with a First Aid kit and add to that. Not living in a place you can get too horribly lost (you should hit a road within 4 hours if you manage to walk in a straight line) alot of the 'survival' stuff has no meaning to me. Which doesn't mean I don't have means to go fishing or start a fire without matches or that my GHB doesn't have a few necessaries in it. I just don't feel the need to carry such things in a Sucrets tin all the time.

I look at those kits much like hunter63 does. Fascination. Kinda like the sparkly fishing lure aisle. In spite of all their killer claims, a lot of those lures aren't meant to catch fish, just the fisherman who buys them.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> And as luck would have it...If you do carry it, won't need it...This time.....Leave it out and you are gonna need it for sure....LOL
> 
> BTW, has anyone actually got one of those survival blankets folded back up after unwrapping it? Meaning NOT a snot ball.





> That's a great deal like putting popcorn back in the kernel.


See That's kind of what I'm talking about. For my "Survival Kit" that I would take on a hike or day trip, is actually a kind of "Fanny Pack"/Purse type of deal(It has a reinforced belt, shoulder strap, and a handle) On the Belt I also have a 1 qt. GI Canteen (Don't have a canteen cup....yet) PLENTY of Room for all kinds of stuff to put in it. Instead of the "Disposable" Space blankets I would actually prefer something like this.......

s7_510214_005_01.jpg
From Cabelas....
http://www.cabelas.com/outdoor-safet...blankets.shtml

More durable, reusable, multi use, Not some "Trashy" one use piece. 

I think of my Survival Kit, as more like a Mountain Mans possible bag. It's NOT a "Pocket kit". Yet it DOES hold all my "Possibles".

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## crashdive123

By definition, these little survival kits are not for every day use, but rather..........wait for it...............survival.  At the point at which these items are needed then re-storing them is not high on my list of concerns.

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## hunter63

> By definition, these little survival kits are not for every day use, but rather..........wait for it...............survival.  At the point at which these items are needed then re-storing them is not high on my list of concerns.


Yeah I know....but be warned to take avantage of trying out your gear....before you need it, it is advisible to buy at least two of everything that is considered a "one use item", as with the "space blanket" it will never be the same.
Carried one on the space blankets in my hunting pack....tried it out on very cold morning, and I was not impressed, I didn't die....but I couldn't see where it helped too much.
Made me want to take a different tack if I plan on staying out all day/nite for any length of time.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> By definition, these little survival kits are not for every day use, but rather..........wait for it...............survival.  At the point at which these items are needed then re-storing them is not high on my list of concerns.


While what you say is true, IMO most of these "Survival kits" are like trying to put a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. Let's say you have to move because of some unforeseen condition, Weather or something making the place you are in not a good location any longer. 

I agree with H63 on "Trying it out" too. The one I bought only had a couple of things worth keeping, and was not anything I would recommend anyone using for anything other than an over night "Survival" trip, when they KNOW they will be rescued by morning. Basically the only worthwhile items were the container it was packaged in,something to get a fire started *IF* the matches didn't run out (Supposedly "Waterproof" but in reality weren't even "Humidity proof") The Tiny fire starter cube, and the whistle.(which was little better than a cracker jack whistle) In reality I bought it Solely for the container it was all packed in. So wasn't too disappointed. IF someone had bought one of these for a real survival scenario..... well they would have been another sad case in the news IMO. A single firesteel was worth more than the entire contents of that "Pocket Survival Kit", in terms of real survival potential. I think this is what everyone is saying in terms of "a false sense of security". Some of these "Survival Kits" are sure to get you killed IF you don't have other items that are dependable.

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## Sarge47

> Instead of the "Disposable" Space blankets I would actually prefer something like this.......
> 
> s7_510214_005_01.jpg
> From Cabelas....
> http://www.cabelas.com/outdoor-safet...blankets.shtml
> 
> More durable, reusable, multi use, Not some "Trashy" one use piece. 
> 
> I think of my Survival Kit, as more like a Mountain Mans possible bag. It's NOT a "Pocket kit". Yet it DOES hold all my "Possibles".


 I own several of the blankets shown here.  Like you, Poco, my kit is more like the bag you mention.     :Thumbup:

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> I own several of the blankets shown here.  Like you, Poco, my kit is more like the bag you mention.


So what is your opinion of them?

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## Rick

My survival kit....

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> My survival kit....
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Yours is MUCH better than most of the prepackaged "Survival Kits" I've seen. Probably close to the ADK kit you showed earlier in price too, Probably within 20-30 dollars anyways.(Not knowing prices of the individual items you have shown) Add another pill bottle with fishing equipment, 20-50 ft of 550 cord and you are MILES ahead of the other kit IMO. Quite honestly if you had all that in a belt pouch(Cell phone size pouch or Camera size pouch) it would be a great seller. You could sub an Opinel for the Kershaw to reduce price/cost.

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## BENESSE

No first aid? Band aid at least?

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## LowKey

Like I said, first aid is where I start.
I have a few of those red blankets too. I like them cuz you can use them for other things besides keeping warm. Like lying on them in the snow to get the jammed spare tire down. Or wrapping up in off behind the guardrail when your truck breaks down in a snowstorm in the active breakdown lane of the highway and you can't stay in the vehicle. Or for, well, a general ground cover for those impromptu...uh...picnics...yeah...picnics.........  .....

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## huntermj

I would only add that local environment is a big consideration. My summer kit is much different then my winter kit. And a winter kit in Texas would be different from a winter kit in Alaska. i think a store bought kit is a useful starting point both in materials at hand and a mental starting point. As in "what else should i have" for my area and my family. I would hope that people don't buy a kit and think all is covered. But sadly... well you know.

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## Rick

My stuff is pretty modular. I have a first aid kit that I take with me. I have a fire kit that I carry. But that is my survival kit. Besides, John Wayne didn't need no stinkin' band aid.

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## hunter63

What?...... no one carries band-aids in their wallet"

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## hunter63

> My survival kit....
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


I used to carry all that stuff on my keyring as well, kept pulling my pants down even with suspenders.
Ford dealer says I would wear out my ignition switch with all that stuff, so I cut back....slowing getting the stuff back again....LOL

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## Sarge47

> My survival kit....
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


 Did you get that from Army Ranger Dick?  No, wait, the quality of the items are too good.
Also no car and house keys on it.  Hmmm...   :Online2long:

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## Rick

You guys are sooooo cynical. Hunter, you are looking at that stuff right now thinking, "Well, a small compass won't hurt anything."

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## hunter63

No, the compass is on the wrist watch band..or pinned inside the jacket, or on the zipper pull.

If I were you I would add one of those boating floatation gizmos on that ring....You know, with all those canoe accidents and such.
I guess it would bother me to have everything on the same ring........Yeah, I know that isn't everything you carry.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> You guys are sooooo cynical. Hunter, you are looking at that stuff right now thinking, "Well, a small compass won't hurt anything."


That MAY be true Rick. However I would rather be somewhat cynical with something that IMO is NOT reliable 100% of the time. After all it is a "Life insurance policy" of sorts. I still think proper knowledge trumps "Maybe" equipment.(As in Maybe it will work, Maybe it won't)

This is the one I bought(Or pretty similar anyways) that I bought JUST for the box, and carabiner.
P7290004.jpgP7290005.jpg

Believe me, your "Keychain Survival kit" Is MUCH better than this sort which is all too prevalent in stores. Matter of fact I would take your keychain kit before I would take a hundred of these, with my life in the balance.

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## Rick

My cynical comment was to Hunter and Sarge. But, if you want.......you're cynical, too. Are you happy now?




> If I were you I would add one of those boating floatation gizmos on that  ring....You know, with all those canoe accidents and such.


Oh, snap! I have one of those, too. I won it at the WSF Jamboree last year! I gotta get me some bigger pockets.

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## crashdive123

You can only add so much to the keyring before it turns into.....

Overheard at WSF Camping trip # 5 - 

PGV - So Rick, what is the trailer for?
Rick - Oh that?  That's for my survival keyring.

I of course would never ask a question like that, but your gotta watch out for that Phil character.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> My cynical comment was to Hunter and Sarge. But, if you want.......you're cynical, too. Are you happy now?


 :Thumbs Up:  :clap:  :airhorn:  :Banana:  :Cool:  :Nod:

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## crashdive123

I think he's happy now.

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## BENESSE

You know what they say...the more (keys) $hit you got on your key ring, the more important you are.

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## hunter63

> You know what they say...the more (keys) $hit you got on your key ring, the more important you are.


Problem is remembering what they are for?.....and the right key is always on the other ring(s) ...in the other truck....etc.....LOL

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## Rick

Or the faster you sink. It's one of those two sayings I'm pretty sure.

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## huntermj

I have a few things on my key ring, But a compass is not one of them.
I dont know what its like in your area but the woods here are so dense here that a person has to know where they are going. And i do carry a GPS for a back-up. But its a back-up only.

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## Rick

So.........What happens if you find yourself in a part of the woods that you don't know where you're going? You'd probably need a pre-made survival kit, I'm guessin'.

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## Beans

> You know what they say...the more (keys) $hit you got on your key ring, the more important you are.


Don't forget the clipboard!  You can not be in charge without one.

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## Rick

(Dang it! One MORE thing I have to get.)

Who's in charge around here? 

(See?)

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## hunter63

> Don't forget the clipboard!  You can not be in charge without one.


Now that's funny ...I don't care who you are.
Some day when y'all are older I relate a story about this........

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## Rick

Older than what? Dirt calls half of us "sir" already.

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## hunter63

> Don't forget the clipboard!  You can not be in charge without one.


OK
Trying to get tickets at Alpine Valley, wanted to see Eric Clapton, live in concert, and NOT in the nose bleed section, friend and I got up real early, drove out there, to find a lot of people already standing around waiting to the ticket booth to open.

After a while, a guy with an Alpine Valley t-shirt, Alpine Valley cap, clip board and a whistle.

About 10 min before the window opened....He blows the whistle, waving his clip board around, and had every one line up.....was kinda surprised it wasn't in alphabetical order or by height....like in grade school.

So, everyone does get in line, like the sheeple we are........Window opens and he was the first in line.......buys his tickets and left.

200 people just stood there wondering what had just happened.....LOL

Morel to the story,.... Clip board, whistle, and Chutzpah....You can go far.........

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## faber825

it seems to me that a lot of premade survival kits are not well thought out. most people who die in the wilderness after getting lost die of exposure or lack of water, yet I still see kits that have snare wire and fish hooks, but no emergency blanket, lighter, water treatment tablets, or even a plastic bag for water. maybe they expect you to snare enough rabbits to stitch a fur coat.

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## Phaedrus

I'm a big fan of the Ritter/AMK PSP.  Sure, the scalpel blade isn't the best but the bulk of the kit is comprised of very high quality components.  And if you price them out you'll be hard pressed to buy them individually for the cost of the kit.  I have half a dozen of them; I have them set up as a subscription from Amazon.  I have one shipped every three months, and by setting up a subscription you get 15% off and free shipping.  The mirror is a very good, as is the whistle.  For the space it takes I think the Spark-Lite and Tinder-Quik make a good combo.  The tinder is terrific, and I bought a 100 count bag of it to add to other kits.  Even the pouch itself if very good- heavy duty and waterproof.  And there's a wee bit of room to add a few things.  I added a very small Firesteel.com steel & striker, as well as a few Aquamira tabs.

Doug is a widely recognized survival expert and instructor, as well as a writer with many published articles to his credit.  FWIW he also started KnifeRights.org, one of the only groups out there that exists soley to protect your rights to carry & use knives.  Right now they're involved in a lawsuit vs the D.A. of NY over his strong-arm shakedown of knife dealers and law abiding citizens.

Doug will be the first to tell you the PSP isn't perfect.  If you knew you'd get lost on a given day, a prudent person would just stay in the house! :Laugh:   Short of that, one would obviously carry more than that.  The PSP is designed to be that last ditch bit of gear that might save your bacon if you get separated from your main pack or have to swim out of a sinking float plane with just the clothes on your back.  And he knows the reality of the situation is that a small kit that's always on you is better than the B.O.B. you left back at the trail head.

My main use for the PSP is as a building block for my own kits.  I can get those core essentials cheaper in the kit (especially after the 15% off) than I could get them alone.  You can tuck a PSP into a pouch along with a space blanket and a disposable poncho and have a lot of capability in a very small, light package.  It's really great for my day hiking kit, a Maxpedition 12 x 5 with a stainless bottle & cup.  There's room for the PSP, a lighter, some tinder, a 100 lumen AAA LED light, a poncho & HeatSheets 2 man blanket and a few bits of tinder.  I have a Cocoon on the side that holds some Stormproof Matches, Chlorine Dioxide tablets, and a few other goodies.  I lash a knife to the MOLLE attachments on the other side (usually either a Mora Triflex or an SOG Field Pup).  I never hike without water and the extras are hardly noticeable, but there if I need them.

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## eaglescout2010

i believe a premade survival kit is a thing that should always be supplemented with new items, and the items that are cheapo made in china quality junk that come with it (i.e button compass, etc) just serve as a reminder as to what should be replaced. I always replace almost over half the stuff in premade survival kits i buy, and i always add a few new things to supplement it.

I would never trust a survival kit as is, but if i customized it with new and more stuff, and it fit in my pocket, then maybe i would trust it.

that is just my opinion on premade survival kits

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## Rick

You might be a bit surprised how many really, really good compasses from brand name suppliers are made in China. Great quality comes from every country as does really poor quality.

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## Sarge47

> You might be a bit surprised how many really, really good compasses from brand name suppliers are made in China. Great quality comes from every country as does really poor quality.


Many top quality knives formerly made in America are made in China now.  The companies that make them, like Gerber, Schrade, Kabar, and Buck, run them and still keep the strict standards of qulity they always have.  Besides, I like the food.   :Tt2:

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## BENESSE

Be that as it may...
Still can't shake the memory of my grandfather being impressed with tools and mechanical things made in West Germany. (he'd _always_ check to see where something was made)
He fought against them in WW2, but he respected quality when he saw it. Can't help thinking the same way.

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## Rick

Most of that is habit and you're right. You really can't help thinking that way because you admire your grandfather so his opinion carried weight. Hence, West German goods appeal to you because they appealed to him. 

Many of us remember when "Made in Japan" meant some cheapo electronic gizmo that cost a buck or so and might work...maybe. Either way you knew it wouldn't be long before you threw it away. It's a far cry from that today with engineering tolerances that forced Detroit to rethink how to build an automobile. It didn't happen over night either. China is going through their growing pains but their cars and electronics will become synonymous with quality as well. Then we'll be laughing about Made in Kenya or Made in Congo or some other country.

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## sh4d0wm4573ri7

My belief then is that a prepackaged kit is merely a good starting point

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## collector rob

If I were to buy one "ready made" it would be the "ESEE Comprehensive Survival Kit w/ ESEE-6 Knife". It's not cheap, but it comes with a heck of a knife, and quality components.
Just my .02.

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## Burncycle

One of the things that got me interested in building a survival kit was after discovering another site where someone compares and contrasts commercially available kits.  It got my gears working and I started thinking about what I could do better...

Along the way I had fun, spent way too much money, and most importantly ended up learning a lot about survival as I put in a lot of thought as to what to carry and why.  Which is interesting, because I find that the more you learn about the subject, it seems the less likely you are to find yourself in such a situation in the first place.

Pre-packaged survival kits have their place in my opinion, but of course one must work with a few constraints. How to keep the cost low so people will actually buy something that is an afterthought to most, but ensure the contents are of sufficient quality and reliability to save your life;  how to keep the size small enough that they'll actually carry it and have it when they need it; and finally it needs to be complete, and that means items that expire.  Too many people will open the kit for the first time only when they need it, and try to learn some of the tricks of how to use the items on the fly. Not a good idea.

At the end of the day, I agree with those who see prepackaged kits as a starting point. It's better than nothing, but it's a gateway tool: it's real value, IMO, is up to the user and how motivated they are to take a good hard look at what they can improve upon, and in doing so, how to use the resources they have to their fullest potential.  The kit I still use to this day started out as a BCB tobacco tin sized "SAS" survival kit, and I don't think I have even one item in there that came with the original kit, having replaced the items and improved it over time. I'm still constantly improving it, and planning on what to get next.  My philosophy of use has also changed over time, going from an EDC supplement to a stand alone capable kit.

I'd really like to see someone do another large scale compare and contrast / review of some of the commercial kits available, since a lot of new kits have become available since the reviews I saw elsewhere, and I think it'd be cool to have a section for user submitted PSK's to be peer reviewed as well.

Regards,
Rob

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## Rick

What's this nonsense about another site? There are no other wilderness sites. Don't fall victim to that folk lore.

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