# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  When does it stop being primitive?

## kyratshooter

When do the skills and activities stop being "primitive"?

When metal enters the picture?

When synthetic fabric shows up?

When flint and steel replaces the fire bow?

When a ferro rod replaces the F&S?

When someone starts blowing up an airbed?

Now remember, we all got to the camp ground or trail head riding in an automobile!

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## hunter63

> When do the skills and activities stop being "primitive"?
> 
> When metal enters the picture? 
> Some metals OK.....not SS
> 
> When synthetic fabric shows up?
> Not primitive
> 
> When flint and steel replaces the fire bow?
> ...


Good question, determined by an asker.....and an agenda.

I get the feeling it's before cell phones.....
I asked a Amish guy....on a Forum (if that makes any sense)....about why they picked year did,... and decided what was OK and what was too "English", or too modern.

Date was in the late 1700 hundreds......(don't remember exactly what date).
So suggested that maybe 1957 might be a good spot....B&W TV, AM Radio, '57 Chevys Rock and Roll...

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## crashdive123

It all stops being primitive when somebody younger than me is doing it.

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## Rick

I don't care when it stops. I want to know when it starts. That way I can avoid it.

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## Batch

Most folks I camp with consider primitive camping anytime your camping without any campsite provided amenities. So, in our group atleast you could be camping in a modern tent next to your car.

I usually just refer to this as camping. It seems to be the people who have camped mostly in parks with sites around the bathroom and showers that also have water and electric, that use the term "primitive" for regular camping away from those things.

I don't think primitive is a good term for camping. I guess I would say if you built a shelter of gathered from the area materials and made fire from friction your almost primitive. If you are wearing buck skins and have an obsidian knife, your probably primitive camping.

But, the second you pull out your cell phone... :phone:

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## hunter63

Sooooo....What's the feeling with toilet paper?

Primitive is when the whirlpool is closed at the hotel.

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## Rick

I always save one sheet of toilet paper to wipe the tears away when I run out of toilet paper. To me it's right up there with the last bullet so you can't be taken prisoner.

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## Mischief

It stops at wallmart

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## Sarge47

The term "primitive," means different things to different people.

To Bear Grylls it's drinking urine and sheltering at the Ramada Inn.

To Cody Lundin it's doing everything he can with what he finds out in the field...except for shoes.

To Les Stroud it's looking for Bigfoot.

Some think that eating insects are being primitive.  Both our State and City parks with lakes have primitive campsites.  You drive up to the one at the State Park.  It is nothing more than a barren piece of ground with a campfire site and no port-a-potty.  Everywhere else campfires are a no-no, but they have port-a-potties.  At the City Park you have to boat across the lake to reach them, again, barren ground with a campfire spot.  Only place you can have a campfire. Same deal on the port-a-potties.

I was asked once by a guy working for my Chiropractor what I liked to use to start a fire with.  I replied that I used the long barrelled butane lighter that you would use to start a charcoal grill with.  That's primitive to me.  Otherwise I'd just turn the knob on the stove and let the pilot light do the work.... :Detective:

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## Wise Old Owl

> Sooooo....What's the feeling with toilet paper?
> 
> Primitive is when the whirlpool is closed at the hotel.


Much better when you stop using these...


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## Batch

Ah the toilet paper plant with a soothing urushiol lotion.

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## TXyakr

I learned that when your friends insist on camping at a state park the area designated "primitive sites" may just be the only area that you will not get vehicle lights shining on you every time someone drives their SUV/truck to the restroom less than 100 yards from their water/electric campsite ALL THROUGHOUT THE DANG NIGHT!!!! So sure I have a long walk from sitting around the campfire talking with friends to where I hung my hammock and tarp, but so worth it. And no dang trailer/RV that leaves its dang porch lights on all night long. "Camping" in a First World Country like the USA is SOOO very different than many other parts of this world!

As you can tell by rant above I have a very low tolerance for State Parks and "improved" campgrounds be they private or public. Just what I put up with to spent time with friends and family occasionally. "Primitive" is just whatever you want it to be and makes you happy and feel more in touch with nature and your heritage or whatever.

I had a guy share a canoe with me on one trip who did not put his precious toilet paper in a dry waterproof bag, ask to use some of mine then complain I had not brought enough. WHAT THE HECK!!! I ANIT YOUR MOMMIE AND THERE IS A RIVER RIGHT THERE, WASH UP WIHT IT FOOL!!! OMG some folks just do not know how to adapt. I leaned to use river/stream water to wash my bum when I was in grade school and no one told me or showed me it was very obvious, a smooth stone or stick with bark removed is also obvious to anyone slightly smarter than a box of rocks. Am I the only person who did not have their brain destroyed by hours of TV as a child?

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## WalkingTree

It's not primitive when you're not completely naked, barefoot, and empty handed when you begin your outdoors excursion. Arg!

Primitive: Combination of 2 things...any item made only from materials produced by nature with no human influence and in it's nature-derived state when obtained, plus processed and created by human hands while the owners of those hands are living in a completely primitive manner. Self looping logic. Knot tying jibber jabber.




> I had a guy share a canoe with me on one trip who did not put his precious toilet paper in a dry waterproof bag, ask to use some of mine then complain I had not brought enough. WHAT THE HECK!!! I ANIT YOUR MOMMIE AND THERE IS A RIVER RIGHT THERE, WASH UP WIHT IT FOOL!!!


Shoot, I don't use toilet paper now. I hate toilet paper. I don't see what the stuff even does. A wad of weak tissue paper is what I'm gonna wipe my butt with after doo doo has come out of it? If my stool has been normal and healthy, a wad of weak paper doesn't do anything...if otherwise and I'd need a cleaning, a wad of paper certainly doesn't even begin to do anything. I always just did the deed, then hit the shower...same time, regular rhythm, every day. So, toilet paper on a camping trip? No...got no space in my pack for that crap. Don't even have it in my house. Haven't bought t-paper in 2 decades.

...I'll just look for the swear-fine machine mounted on some tree and swear at it instead of trying to figure out the 3-seashells.

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## kyratshooter

Did the Native Americans stop being primitive when they traded for the first steel knife they saw?  

Or the first steel flint striker?

Although they had a different attitude toward body image, many of the tribes were very modest and always wore clothes.

Footwear too, some of the most ancient artifacts we have from almost every culture is footwear.  

As for your personal hygiene issues, the avoidance of tp is not primitive, just nasty, but the need for the immediate shower is going to cause a problem in a "primitive" setting.

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## Rick

It's interesting that all the stuff we have today was developed because the earlier version was simply too labor intensive or unpleasant. Of course, marketing now plays a role in our "stuff" but, by and large, we invented things to make life easier and/or more pleasant. I would venture a guess that if Grog were taken out of his cave and placed in one of our homes with air conditioning, safe running water and toilet paper he'd bash you good if you tried to take him back to the cave. And we talk about returning to that life style? I have to believe that Grog would trade us his cave for our home, his spear for our guns, his chasing every meal for our supermarket.

I find it a tad hard to believe that toilet paper is never used. Either that or you stay home 24/7, which could be the case. I can believe you've never purchased it. I've known more than one person that took stuff home from their work then bragged they never had to buy a given item.

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## kyratshooter

I think that what he is saying is that he substitutes massive quantities of Klenex for the TP.  

Same item, different shape, and not placing one in a "primitive condition or situation" at all since I have never seen Kleanex dispensers next to the swear fine machine.

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## Rick

Look again. He ended that sentence with a question mark. Maybe he uses three fingers in place of corn cobs.

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## Sarge47

Note to self:  If Walking tree wants to visit put "out of order" sign on bathroom door and put an out house in the backyard..... :Scared:

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## WalkingTree

Forgot to mention...I grow corn out back.

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## hunter63

White or brown cobs?

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## WalkingTree

White, so I can tell how much use I have left in one.

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## hunter63

> White, so I can tell how much use I have left in one.


Use brown...white is just for checking....

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## crashdive123

> White or brown cobs?


Depends I guess.....before or after.

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## kyratshooter

> Depends I guess.....before or after.


You have to know the system.

Back in the day they kept a bucket of brown cobs and a bucket of white cobs.

First you used a brown cob.  Then you used a white cob, to see if you needed to use another brown cob.

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## Rick

And that, dear friends, is why God invented toilet paper.

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## Wildthang

Primitive is when you do things differently than the Neandrethal!

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## TXyakr

Roman soldiers were all issued a spongia or a sea-sponge on a long stick, NOT something that would run out quickly like toilet paper. God invented the sea-sponge and sticks and human brain to put them together. See photo of Roman public toilets with holes for the "Spongia". I imagine if in battle a soldier lost or broke his sword and only had a short dagger he could use the "spongia" to distract his opponent while getting close enough to stab him.
It would be rough on the bum and nose in areas with little water.

http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/200...let-paper.html

This is not actually primitive, but very civilized in my opinion, plain sticks with no sponge or stones are primitive.
I hang my "spongia" so the sea-sponge is just below my backpack but not touching my legs, occasionally those on the trail being me squeeze it then ask for an explanation, which they regret. ha ha ha. Perhaps I should not rinse it out so well, so it would be self explanatory.  :Wink: 

Only joking I have not yet tried a spongia for camping, but have considered it.

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## hunter63

You don't hear the whispers when other go by the other way on the trail....?

"Ewww....What was that?......Who was that?......Old Stinky just walked by?

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## hunter63

> You don't hear the whispers when other go by the other way on the trail....?
> 
> "Ewww....What was that?......Who was that?......Old Stinky just walked by?


Do you change your underwear?....

Correct order.
Day one.......Right side out, correct direction.
Day two.......Right side out  Turn around
Day three.....Inside out...correct direction
Day Four......Inside out...turn backwards

Day 5 Change with Joe.....Start over.

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## Sarge47

It's all a matter of perception.  For example, you're in the market for a house and you find two that stand out.  One has indoor plumbing, the other one an outhouse; which, in your opinion, would you consider primitive?

One house only has an outhouse but the 2nd house doesn't even have that, you have to use the nearby woods.  Again, which would you consider primitive.

While I admire those who can start a fire with a bow drill and the like I find that they are really not an applicable fire-starting method in any given survival situation unless you have lost your ferro rod, mag block, matches, lighter, etc.!  Why?  Because in a true survival situation you need to conserve as much energy as possible, and the primitive methods seem to take a lot more energy than the others.... :1:

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## WalkingTree

white / brown:

I can see that. Makes more sense. Why waste cobs using the wrong ones. First use, no need to check. When about finished, white would let you know for sure.

Yea sarge, primitive can be relative. I agree with that.

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## hunter63

The Amish use outhouses.....and have no indoor plumbing....except maybe a have pump by the sink.
They do not think it's primitive....just the way it is.

The built my cabin....and I had laid out where I wanted the windows on the east end........they normally would put the in the center, or if there are two....spaced out evenly.
I had measured out a small window in the upper left hand corner.....and a bigger kitchen window off to the right.
They questioned the placement, so I showed them my plans....bathroom /kitchen separated buy a 6" service wall (I do that part).....

They laughed at me....why would anyone put the kitchen next to where you poop...bathroom?
I would have to agree if it had been an outhouse there, instead of a flush toilet.

Primitive is relative.

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## Batch

I had a perspective explained to me awhile back regarding toilet paper. We westerners laugh at other cultures and there means for dealing with the requirements of doing their duty. Those who use squat toilets think that you are insane to make contact with your skin on a dirty public toilet.

The swishers and not users of the vile left hand as well as the users of the bidet don't think toilet paper is very clean. A person from a country that swishes made a valid point. Swishers may be like the Indians that have no indoor plumbing and so take a dump in the river in public and then they reach behind them and clean with water and their hand. then they swish their hand in the water. 

Something most of westerners would find this disgusting. How, can swishing your hand in dirty water clean your hand of such filth. They reply that it can't and that is why they don't touch food or people with their left hand. They then asked if you placed your hand in poop and wiped it off with paper would you eat with that hand?

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## Rick

And that, dear friends, is why God invented soap and hot water. There's a pattern evolving here.

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## WalkingTree

I don't use my hand. Solves that problem.

Not nasty at all, and isn't really that hard to imagine even if it’s new to you. In fact one should imagine that water and soap gets you cleaner than some wads of dry tissue-strength paper:

1 - Go by the rhythm of doing #2 then showering in the morning, and/or in the late afternoon/evening. Your body quickly begins to go by that rhythm, unless you’re always eating spicy chili at random times of the day. I never even need to go during the day. Have used public toilets for #2 away from home maybe 5 times in two decades, approximately (and in such cases I use paper just fine). If I were going to visit you at your house, you wouldn’t have to worry...know how you tell the kids to wee wee before a little trip? Same thing.

2 – If stool is good, there’s nothing to even wipe – though I’m still getting in the shower anyway. If stool isn’t so good and wiping would be needed, then a wad of paper isn’t going to get it nearly as good as water and soap.

3 – Do the doo. Then enter shower. Shower as usual with water and soap. Let water run down and between buttcheeks. Use hands to move each cheek up and down against each other, for a scrubbing action while water is running. Employ other creative yoga body positions during shower if desired and able.

4 – During the normal soap application stage, bend slightly over and let ample amounts of soap run down your lower back down between your buttcheeks. Scrub buttcheeks against each other once again.

5 – Do the same for rinsing, including rinsing other parts of your body as you would normally do anyway.

6 – (A different method may need to be used by females.)

So, upon closing…no, I never have toilet paper in my house, and haven’t bought any in forever. No, it’s not nearly as nasty as using paper. No, there are no problems created by your wash running down the shower drain. Plenty of water gets flushed through it as usual, and it all goes to the same place within a few feet of the plumbing. No, the hands don’t even come in contact with any stool. No, there are no problems with me having to “go” during the day. The idea of that need is a bit alien to me.

Hard to believe? Shouldn't be. Nasty? Who's bum is cleaner...a paper user, or someone who uses water and soap every day like they already are doing with showers?

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## Rick

Good luck with that.

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## Wildthang

So here at WSF, we have determined that primitive is an abstract term that means many different things to many different people. So it is almost a word that means absolutely nothing except maybe what you want to think and believe it is! We have spent 2 pages commenting on something that almost means nothing!

So now, this has me pondering on the true meaning of Wilderness!

Is wilderness where the town stops and the country begins?

Is it  anywhere there is a bunch of trees and bushes?

Is it always at least 50 miles from any town?

Is it always like endless vast country where man rarely ventures?

Is it all of the above?

Or is it only what you believe it to be? Sort of like primitive.........LOL

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## Wildthang

> I don't use my hand. Solves that problem.
> 
> Not nasty at all, and isn't really that hard to imagine even if its new to you. In fact one should imagine that water and soap gets you cleaner than some wads of dry tissue-strength paper:
> 
> 1 - Go by the rhythm of doing #2 then showering in the morning, and/or in the late afternoon/evening. Your body quickly begins to go by that rhythm, unless youre always eating spicy chili at random times of the day. I never even need to go during the day. Have used public toilets for #2 away from home maybe 5 times in two decades, approximately (and in such cases I use paper just fine). If I were going to visit you at your house, you wouldnt have to worry...know how you tell the kids to wee wee before a little trip? Same thing.
> 
> 2  If stool is good, theres nothing to even wipe  though Im still getting in the shower anyway. If stool isnt so good and wiping would be needed, then a wad of paper isnt going to get it nearly as good as water and soap.
> 
> 3  Do the doo. Then enter shower. Shower as usual with water and soap. Let water run down and between buttcheeks. Use hands to move each cheek up and down against each other, for a scrubbing action while water is running. Employ other creative yoga body positions during shower if desired and able.
> ...


Much to do with pooooooooooo!

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## hunter63

Wilderness= No cell phone coverage.
Walkingtree, we are actually talking about real life in the world.....a world where showers are not next to a "pooping place"....and showers are made from water you collect, or have to carry.

I suspect your imaginary world is coming into play with your posted dissertation on proper toilet etiquette....Might be wrong...???

If not....Good luck with that.

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## WalkingTree

^ Out in the wild, what I said would be irrelevant. A stone and some water would be the order of the day.

See previous posts, to remember the conversational context. I wouldn't bother taking T.P. into the wild, because I don't even use it now.

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## Rick

You never take a trip? Never travel? Same time, every single day? Okay.

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## Wildthang

> ^ Out in the wild, what I said would be irrelevant. A stone and some water would be the order of the day.
> 
> See previous posts, to remember the conversational context. I wouldn't bother taking T.P. into the wild, because I don't even use it now.


I like toilet paper, it's light weight, and it's better than rocks and corn cobs. If I ever run out I will use whatever I have to! Ever heard of a person that used poisen ivy for toilet paper?

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## hunter63

See post #10......

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## Sarge47

> ^ Out in the wild, what I said would be irrelevant. A stone and some water would be the order of the day.
> 
> See previous posts, to remember the conversational context. I wouldn't bother taking T.P. into the wild, because I don't even use it now.


Note to self:  Do not allow WalkingTree to use the bathroom at my house...shower curtains look bad enough the way it is.... :W00t:

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## TXyakr

> While I admire those who can start a fire with a bow drill and the like I find that they are really not an applicable fire-starting method in any given survival situation unless you have lost your ferro rod, mag block, matches, lighter, etc.!  Why?  Because in a true survival situation you need to conserve as much energy as possible, and the primitive methods seem to take a lot more energy than the others....


I completely agree. Mostly I use a lighter when camping because it is very fast and I am so busy doing so many things then socializing or watching wildlife when done with all the chores. It seems foolish to waste time with practicing primitive fire starting methods that I can and do practice in my backyard or at a local park. Exception may be if some other people want to do it because we started to talk about it, and/or found some interesting wood for drill or tinder materials, i.e. natural accelerant etc.
However, I never rely completely on a lighter because they are relatively fragile, a larger diameter fire-steel/ferrocerium rod in a protective tube/cover/sheath is my preferred backup unless it will be raining a lot then a large magnesium block. Mag blocks are a pain to use but good if only accelerant you can find, i.e. not much juniper or birch bark around.

But if a person practices with bow, spindle and fire-board, once it is all made and tinder-bundle and twigs and other firewood is  all ready it can take as little as 10 minutes if air is not super humid and you gathered and keep tinder and some twigs while it was still sunny and relatively dry. A few times I have gotten out of car and started a trip when it was raining and it never stopped for over 24 hours. THEN I really needed mag block!

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## TXyakr

> I don't use my hand. Solves that problem.
> 
> Not nasty at all, and isn't really that hard to imagine even if it’s new to you. In fact one should imagine that water and soap gets you cleaner than some wads of dry tissue-strength paper:
> 
> 1 - Go by the rhythm of doing #2 then showering in the morning, and/or in the late afternoon/evening. Your body quickly begins to go by that rhythm, unless you’re always eating spicy chili at random times of the day. I never even need to go during the day. Have used public toilets for #2 away from home maybe 5 times in two decades, approximately (and in such cases I use paper just fine). If I were going to visit you at your house, you wouldn’t have to worry...know how you tell the kids to wee wee before a little trip? Same thing.
> 
> 2 – If stool is good, there’s nothing to even wipe – though I’m still getting in the shower anyway. If stool isn’t so good and wiping would be needed, then a wad of paper isn’t going to get it nearly as good as water and soap.
> 
> 3 – Do the doo. Then enter shower. Shower as usual with water and soap. Let water run down and between buttcheeks. Use hands to move each cheek up and down against each other, for a scrubbing action while water is running. Employ other creative yoga body positions during shower if desired and able.
> ...


A agree with you that paper is not very effective at cleaning especially for people who have hair back there. And PHS (Poopy Hand Syndrome) is a well documented issue especially among campers in low water areas, but in all areas and as many men as I have noticed leaving a restroom, the stall and not using the sink, I suspect in normal office environments as well. I don't like the handshake part of our western culture.

Here is one of many outdoors articles that talks about PHS (paragraph on illness):

http://www.rapidmedia.com/canoeing/c...dventure-spots

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## hunter63

I guess I kinda sorry I brought up TP, to start with.....being primitive or not.....LOL

Oh well, 
"In days of old,
When knights were bold,
and toilets were not invented....

They laid their load,
beside the road, 
and went on there way contented"

or
"In days of old
 When the Knights were bold
 And toilet lights were dim
 You'd hear a crash
 Then a splash
 OH GOD! He's fallen in!"

or
"In days of old,
 When knights were bold
 And paper weren't invented.
 They'd wipe their arse
 On clumps of grass
 And walk away contented"

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## crashdive123

Well, this thread has gone to crap.

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## WalkingTree

> You never take a trip? Never travel? Same time, every single day? Okay.


Weeell okaaay. Ya got me. I just wasn't counting atypical instances. Wasn't going to be anal and explain everything. Hehe Arg!



> Well, this thread has gone to crap.


Hehe. Crap. Anal.

Sorry for my part.

Though...we're not really getting anywhere if we just concede that Wilderness and Primitive should only be relative. And I'm thinking per the wording of the original thread question.

The words are used relatively and flexibly, and this isn't wrong, but words can also have a more objective, versus subjective, formal definition. Otherwise, words can begin to become useless. A word is meant to differentiate one thing from another thing for which we therefore use another word.

Wilderness and Primitive can be used relatively...correctly. But on the other hand, I myself had the impression that we were looking for a more objective fundamental definitive as it applies to camping and survival.

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## hunter63

> Well, this thread has gone to crap.


 
Semantically or literally.......?

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## Rollicks

Oh boy, this is a hard discussion to step into. 

I look at it like this:

People tend to define primitive as any thing that is better than not having anything, I mean we can all agree that primitive people had sophisticated ways of living comfortably. Way before that we were basically animals trying not to die all the time, it sucked. The way people live today even with all the fancy gadgets still live only a little better than animals. Wouldn't you agree?

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## crashdive123

> Semantically or literally.......?


Yes................

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## crashdive123

It's all relative in this way I believe.......

I don't think anybody would argue that the Neanderthal Man lived primitively.

I don't think anybody would argue that the Cro-Magnon Man lived primitively. 

Fast forward a bit to the early Native Americans.  Yep, living primitively.

Early Colonial America?  I would say yes, they lived primitively.

Pick any period you like.  We tend to evaluate things based on our own experiences, so those that came before us are often considered to be living primitively.  Just ask your teenage daughter about life with black and white TV's, rotary phones and no computers.  You lived primitively in her eyes.

The thing is (IMO) that all of these primitives used the most modern means at their disposal.  They would embrace advances in technology or materials to make their lives easier.  To them, those that came before them were primitives.

Today, we "live primitively" for periods as a form of enjoyment or entertainment.  Maybe its a hobby?  Maybe a way to learn about those that came before?  For some it is a desire to disconnect I suppose.

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## Wise Old Owl

> Well, this thread has gone to crap.



Like Neandrathal.


Take what you are comfortable with - Personally a Bic lighter as apposed to a flint stone.

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## Rick

Neanderthal didn't think any of those others were primitive and that the kids were taking the world to heck in a handbasket. Kids were more interested in painting on the walls than tracking and hunting mammoths. Some of them wouldn't even move out of their mother's cave.

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## hunter63

......and would have waited in lines for the latest Bic lighter.....
I see what you are doing there.....

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## WalkingTree

I myself am "guilty" of using PRIMITIVE in relative fashion. I've said that I want to live deep in a wilderness primitively, even ultra primitively. But what I have in mind includes taking a good armload of items with me.

My attempt at an answer to the thread question was using the approach of stripping away all of the denominators which make it arbitrary and relative. But I wouldn't want to do it that way. Alas, it has a relative element in it indeed.

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## Sarge47

> It's all relative in this way I believe.......
> 
> I don't think anybody would argue that the Neanderthal Man lived primitively.
> 
> I don't think anybody would argue that the Cro-Magnon Man lived primitively. 
> 
> Fast forward a bit to the early Native Americans.  Yep, living primitively.
> 
> Early Colonial America?  I would say yes, they lived primitively.
> ...


Right on Crash!  Native Americans used knives & axes made from flint and stone  until white traders came into their camp and traded them steel knives and axes.  They hunted with bows and arrows until they could score a nice rifle.  They made their canoes out of Birchbark yet never lost one of those rifles out of it...oops!... :Innocent:

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## Wise Old Owl

> Neanderthal didn't think any of those others were primitive and that the kids were taking the world to heck in a handbasket. Kids were more interested in painting on the walls than tracking and hunting mammoths. Some of them wouldn't even move out of their mother's cave.


This Neanderthal thought it was cute to make the kids lips wet and stick them to the stone wall for fun and entertainment. It was all good until one sucker came off the wall while attempting to text help and lost an eye. 


Oh wait ....nevermind...Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## primitiveskills

I used to be a purist. Rock tools, bone and stone points on self bows, sinew string, whew! Then I got married, had three kids and realized sleep was important. Somewhere an evolution of the skills occurred and included recycling roofing rubber in the absence of giant trees to peel bark from and adding windows to Passamaquoddy trappers lodges to offset the dark, depressing, and all too short days of winter. Now we are making rocker stove radiant floor heating systems and using perlite to prevent conduction from robbing the heat from our thermal mass. Those of you who are primitive purists, I can only say in my defense that last winter we stayed warm for six months with night time temperatures in the twenties and colder and we did so with just over half a cord of wood no bigger the throwing stick size. Primitive by it's very nature IS efficient, but with modern materials on their way to the dump, evolutionary processes dictate that we remain flexible and (in the importable words of Bruce Lee) absorb what is useful. I carry a lighter and a ferro rod, but feel like I just passed gas at a funeral when I have to use them because of a self imposed value system of keeping my skills sharp. This might change in twelve to fifteen years if I end up with arthritis of old injuries dictate otherwise. In this context, Primitive is working ones edge with minimal gear to remain self reliant and in a mutually beneficial relationship with the landscape and what it provides for as long as it is sustainable. Just my perspective.

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## Wolfhound

Primitive is whatever I have on hand, because that is how people have always lived.  If I have matches, fine.  If I have a rifle, fine.  If I have to make a bow and use a bow drill, fine.  It's what you have on hand, which usually dwindles over time.  That is why us humans invent things and make factories, so we don't run out.

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## primitiveskills

It stops being primitive when it no longer connects you to the land and the wisdom of your ancestors. It stops being primitive when you depend on something out of a big box store more than the hours of dirt time in the outdoors engaging in meaningful hard work to achieve life giving skills. If you can shape it with your own hands, produce a result without spending a cent, work your edge, and a byproduct of the experience is that you know yourself and your landscape a little bit better, it's most likely rooted in primitive skills.

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## survival-skills

It stops being primitive when you can go to a store and buy things you need. When other people do something you need for you, and you exchange it for something you made.

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## kyratshooter

Does room service messing up your order count as primitive?

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## hunter63

Maybe not, but having the whirlpool broke down does for sure......
Or am I the only one that packs a swimming suit in the GrAB.

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## Rick

Oh, no. I've got my speedos packed too.

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## hunter63

Oh, NO......NOT going there......
TRHis is leading down THAT path.

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## Manwithnoname

Kyratshooter, my own personal opinion, if it's primitive enough for you, that's all that matters.

I get both sides of the coin but it's really all relative. One could argue your flint wasn't foraged in the hills and the steel was forged in the 21st century. Doesn't matter to me, you're starting your fire like the old ones did so that's what matters. Now I'll be a hypocrit, it chaps my butt raw for any "primitive arms" season to allow scoped, synthetic stocked, primer fired, pellet powdered rifles to participate in the season but undeniably the basic operating principle remains the same. It's all relative.

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## WalkingTree

Just saw this one -



> It stops being primitive when you can go to a store and buy things you need


That one isn't bad.

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## NightSG

> When do the skills and activities stop being "primitive"?


When I can plug into Ethernet instead of having to crack somebody's WiFi password.

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## MOSTBCWT

> When do the skills and activities stop being "primitive"?
> 
> When metal enters the picture?
> 
> When synthetic fabric shows up?
> 
> When flint and steel replaces the fire bow?
> 
> When a ferro rod replaces the F&S?
> ...


When do the skills and activities of "what" stop being primitive?

Outdoors activities?  Bushcraft type things?   

Or your ride to the woods?

What exactly are you asking about?

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## Manwithnoname

> When I can plug into Ethernet instead of having to crack somebody's WiFi password.


Don't forget having to hear and wait for the dial up modem  :Smile:

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## kyratshooter

> When do the skills and activities of "what" stop being primitive?
> 
> Outdoors activities?  Bushcraft type things?   
> 
> Or your ride to the woods?
> 
> What exactly are you asking about?


I am not asking about "exactly" anything, so do not overcomplicate your thought process.  

The question is to promote discussion and not to get anyone "straightened out" over a misconception or definition of "primitive".

Sometime we talk about things here.  We throw a question out with no expectation of a right or wrong answer simply because we wish to converse about our thoughts on the topic.

If you have no thoughts on the topic do not converse, and if no one has a thought on the topic the thread will die naturally only to be revived by a newbie 6 years from now.  Probably after my passing when my ashes have been scattered and I can not reply, which will probably also pi$$ them off.

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## NightSG

> Don't forget having to hear and wait for the dial up modem


That's going a little too far.  Next you'll have me lugging along the daylight tank so I can process film too.

(Actually did that in NM once.  Waited to get to the motel to drag out the film scanner, but the water at the campsite was exactly 68F, so I took advantage of it.)

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## madmax

Some anthropologist/psychologist might get a paper published about when people ask, " What's primitive",  a lot of conversation goes to TP or the lack of.   I've got some theories...

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## hunter63

First I would like to say....was fun re-reading all the fantastic posts, as a blast from the past.......
I have quoted a good friend that has passed........ to recall his humor and common sense.....
Sarge, this is still funny ....I don't care who you are.....Bhohahahaha 




> Note to self:  Do not allow WalkingTree to use the bathroom at my house...shower curtains look bad enough the way it is....


So WT have you gotten past the "No TP pooping" phase?.......

PS Nephews think I'm am primitive as I don't text.

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## MOSTBCWT

> I am not asking about "exactly" anything, so do not overcomplicate your thought process.  
> 
> The question is to promote discussion and not to get anyone "straightened out" over a misconception or definition of "primitive".
> 
> Sometime we talk about things here.  We throw a question out with no expectation of a right or wrong answer simply because we wish to converse about our thoughts on the topic.
> 
> If you have no thoughts on the topic do not converse, and if no one has a thought on the topic the thread will die naturally only to be revived by a newbie 6 years from now.  Probably after my passing when my ashes have been scattered and I can not reply, which will probably also pi$$ them off.


So basically you ask BS unclear questions to promote drama and debate and arguments.  Gotcha!!

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## kyratshooter

> So basically you ask BS unclear questions to promote drama and debate and arguments.  Gotcha!!


If you want to put it that way then yes, we do.

Apparently if makes people think, even if they don't want too, or are not use to it.

Would you prefer "What's the best survival knife?" 

How about "the .22lr sucks!"

We could do "Why would anyone buy a down sleeping bag in 2016?"

Just a few days ago we did "The Blast Match sucks!", and some said it did and some said it did not!

This place exists for discussion to take place, if that stops we will become a blog.

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## hunter63

> So basically you ask BS unclear questions to promote drama and debate and arguments.  Gotcha!!



Guess you missed the sarcasm.........

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## hayshaker

well, what primitive ai'nt is cellphones,4x4's,take out food anything bear grylls, ect...

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## WalkingTree

(hunter) We're gonna pick on me huh? No, I still don't use T.P. I explained all that already. C'mon, you oughta try it.

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## hayshaker

don't use TP waddya do scootch it on the ground? just saying

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## WalkingTree

> don't use TP waddya do scootch it on the ground? just saying


Hahaha! Yea. That's what I do.

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## hunter63

> (hunter) We're gonna pick on me huh? No, I still don't use T.P. I explained all that already. C'mon, you oughta try it.


Yeah Just a little....Figured you can handle it.




> don't use TP waddya do scootch it on the ground? just saying





> Hahaha! Yea. That's what I do.


See what I mean...Wasn't it worth it?.....LOL

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## WalkingTree

I'm such a good sport.

Once at a job I had a coworker on the floor laughing. Was a new guy, and it came up...somehow it was mentioned at an earlier time. He asked "so how do you...?" I went through the tiresome process of explaining it, acting out the part where you scrub your butt cheeks against each other with your back to the shower - I made an exaggerated show of it. He laughed that laugh where he had no control whatsoever for maybe 15 whole minutes, couldn't breathe, and fell out of his seat truly not-on-purpose. It was great. Ahh...good times.

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## hunter63

I guess it doesn't matter how old you get......A 10 years old, potty humor is still funny......

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## MOSTBCWT

> If you want to put it that way then yes, we do.
> 
> Apparently if makes people think, even if they don't want too, or are not use to it.
> 
> Would you prefer "What's the best survival knife?" 
> 
> How about "the .22lr sucks!"
> 
> We could do "Why would anyone buy a down sleeping bag in 2016?"
> ...


Remember all this over in the "alone" thread when things are said that generate an emotional response.

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## kyratshooter

What does the above comment have to do with the thread in discussion or anything else but your personal @$$-hurt?

Get over it Bub, this whole forum is not about you.

You are so used to running all over everyone around you that you just can't let anything go.



PS, when Crash says to get along with business and move on he generally means it.

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## MOSTBCWT

> What does the above comment have to do with the thread in discussion or anything else but your personal @$$-hurt?


It has to do with the fact you admittedly post things for the sake of discussion but have a problem with it in another topic.  Personal a$$ hurt?  Lmao. There's nothing here that hurts me whatsoever, it's simply entertainment.




> Get over it Bub, this whole forum is not about you.


Are you a$$ hurt now? There's nothing in any forum I would remotely desire to have all about me. 





> You are so used to running all over everyone around you that you just can't let anything go.


No, actually today I'm just bored and wanted to take a minute to point out your discrepancies as it relates to posts in different areas while I stopped by to read here a bit and happened to notice it.  Personally I don't give a rats a$$ but it is what it is. 





> PS, when Crash says to get along with business and move on he generally means it.


Well good.  If more people meant what they said like that we would all be better off.  Take his advice.

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## kyratshooter

MOSTBCWT I am sure we have met before.  Your phrasing seems familiar so I expect you have been here before in another life or persona, otherwise you would not have zeroed in on me so quickly.

I have been here for 7 years and on other outdoor forums in the U.S. and in Europe and GB for more years than that.  I have attempted to contribute to each of the efforts in a positive manner, realizing that I am not the smartest person I know.

On the other hand, you seem to have arrived on the internet about a month ago as a fully formed troll going through a series of forums like a big dose of X-Lax.  Arriving here less than a week ago you have already stirred up problems like a seasoned veteran.

It is time for you to go on the ignore list.  I will not see your posts from this point foreword, so I will not be replying to your bad advice and/or harassment.

I'm going to go with Hunter and say tick-tock.  He's usually pretty good at estimating these things.

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## MOSTBCWT

> MOSTBCWT I am sure we have met before.  Your phrasing seems familiar so I expect you have been here before in another life or persona, otherwise you would not have zeroed in on me so quickly.
> 
> I have been here for 7 years and on other outdoor forums in the U.S. and in Europe and GB for more years than that.  I have attempted to contribute to each of the efforts in a positive manner, realizing that I am not the smartest person I know.
> 
> On the other hand, you seem to have arrived on the internet about a month ago as a fully formed troll going through a series of forums like a big dose of X-Lax.  Arriving here less than a week ago you have already stirred up problems like a seasoned veteran.
> 
> It is time for you to go on the ignore list.  I will not see your posts from this point foreword, so I will not be replying to your bad advice and/or harassment.
> 
> I'm going to go with Hunter and say tick-tock.  He's usually pretty good at estimating these things.


I'm already over hunters 25 post prediction. 

I love you too.  Goodnight

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## MOSTBCWT

Now that he got that outta his system and clicked the ignore button let's get back to talking about when it becomes not primitive. 

Can somebody please define "it"?  It was listed as "skills and activities" in the original post.  What skills and what activities?  I genuinely would like to discuss some serious skillsets and share knowledge.

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## crashdive123

Since you decided to ignore both public and private warnings and continue to troll - you can now do it elsewhere.

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## kyratshooter

Thanks Crash!

Trolls =0            Forum=XXX

Forum wins again!

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## hunter63

Well, some one that joins just to quote and frag members have nothing to add.....

Seems this troll has hit a bunch a of forums, as of late, a quick Google will show several...... So maybe it a contest to see how many frags he can toss and avoid being banned.

As far as my prediction of 25 posts, still pretty close if you get rid of the "good post" comments......which just running up the count I suspect....LOL

Adds nothing constructive to the forum ......or the world, for that matter.

Good riddance.

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## crashdive123

H63 ---- do you want me to delete a few of his posts so that it hits the 25 mark?

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## hunter63

Naw....I had already made up my mind to just ignore this a$$hat, anyway........but seems funny that there was actually some "attaboy posts"....and do believe they are there to break the 25 post prediction....LOL

I think it's just best to let them stand so everyone can see what a sneaky troll, not really a good one, does.....
Like I said in my only post about him....I was not impressed.

Thanks for the work you and Rick put in for the forum.......we don't need this crap.

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## Lamewolf

When you use anything produced by modern man.

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## randyt

who is modern man? anyone more modern than neanderthal man?

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## kyratshooter

Got to agree Randy.

Modern man started in the stone age, worked his way up to now.

Man 40,000 years ago had the same physical and mental features as today.

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