# General > General Chat >  America's time is past.... look elsewhere

## BraggSurvivor

The English abandoned ship at about this time in their history... the country was fading as a world empire - the economic outlook for the average Brit was dismal at best.... The BRAND was destroyed by the aristocracy. 

Like Britain - USA has devolved into a feudal mishmash of ethnocentric enclaves - The American Brand having been destroyed by too much integration/too soon - without a comprehensive plan to solve the economic chaos that is 'trickle down economics'. 

People who are properly situated, don't want to read the doom and gloom every day - and cannot trust the system to route out corruption and replace it with a proper democratic republic - so they are in denial. 

The entire American system is broken - it serves no one but its financial masters and the political class - with news sources just another tentacle of the beast. 

There is no cohesion between the populations - no shared values or mores.... 

People flee to their socio-economic comfort zones - but that won't be enough. 

I really do think the best route for Americans is migration to the 3rd world. 

More freedom - more opportunity - and more of everything that is gone from there. 

The problem with this is most Americans don't know the benefits of being an American in, say - Ecuador - or Cambodia. - The English know.... 

they settled the planet - living like kings by virtue of language and culture.... skills are not necessary where whites can just bloom where you plant them. 

I know so many people living elsewhere because they don't like the US anymore..... and if you speak to American expats in, say, Colima, or Guatalajara Mexico - they'll tell you they don't look back. 

They live like kings -- with servants, nannies and cooks for about 25,000 a year. 

Americans are too insular - too xenophobic - and too immature to understand how quickly the world is changing.... because they don't read the news of the world because THOSE PEOPLE don't matter...... 

The smart money is on mastering the universe - not denying it's there. 

Why would anybody want to be in the shark infested economic environment that is Atlanta, NYC or Chicago???? -- hell, even Denver is a nightmare of competing interests....

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## LeaveThisLifeGuy

i'm from denver.  i love it there.  i also love other places.  its xenophobes that generalize people, much like what you've done here.

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## Rick

I say anyone that wants to leave. There's the door. Head on out. Good luck. Adios. Wlibamkanni. Bonne journée. 

There is nothing more refreshing than a non-American explaining all the woes of America. Especially in an overtly paranoid light. :Big Grin: 

Let us wallow in our own self denial. It's a warm bath. Pull the blanket over your head and turn the flashlight on. The boogy men will stay in the closet and under the bed that way. 

And you're right. We have no shared values or mores. Nothing like insulting us while you explain all the woes. Too insular? Too xenophobic? Too immature? Man, this is your worst post yet. Go stand in front of the mirror and ask yourself if you aren't the very same thing with your motocycles, diving, camping trailers, 4X4s, ATVs. Pretty easy to cast stones when you live that comfortably.

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## crashdive123

One question.  If the United States of America is such a terrible place, why are people all over the world trying to come here?....some even dying in the process.

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## Riverrat

Bragg, can't agree with ya on this one.

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## crehberg

Sorry, think I'll stay here and take my chances in the only country I've ever known.

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## Pict

I'll be the first to admit I haven't been out of this hemisphere but I have lived in Brazil for more than 10 years of my life and I've travelled extensively from Alaska to Chile.

I think you have glamorized the Third World and over simplified the ex-pat experience.  Every time I get back to the US I am always shocked at how well everyting functions, from the roads to the simplicity of getting things like a drivers liscene renewed.  I never have to worry about random car stops where the police just tell you to get out of the car and then proceed to open everything including your pockets and bags, no probable cause needed.

In PA I can carry a gun, whichever make or model I choose anywhere I want, but sometimes I wonder why I bother (I still do it though).  Its just too tame there to really make it a life or death necessity.  Here by contrast I have lived under several different death threats, can only own a .38 revolver, and can't remove it from my home.  In my old neighborhood we had one killing a week within 1000 meters of my apartment and lost five police officers in five separate incidents in five years.

I'm here because I want to be so I'm not complaining.  The US doesn´t have an illegal immigration problem because things are so good out here.  Mac

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## Rick

I appreciate your view from "out there". I think you are crafted of sterner material than I. Your convictions somewhat stronger. I'm not certain I could ignore a death threat. I'd probably pack my bags and go back home.

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## wildWoman

Yo Bragg, did you compose this yourself or did it come from elsewhere like your honey thread some weeks back? Having worked as a nanny for 3 Canadian families, and having come from elsewhere myself, I find it neither paradise here nor in the States, nor any other country I've been to. However, nothing ever changes anywhere unless the malcontent follow up their words with daily actions to change things to the better.
Anyway dear neighbours, once you get into hockey, good beer and Timbits and pack your guns away like the Canadians, you'll find watching from the sidelines might have advantages over being centre stage  :Wink:

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## Rick

WW - Perhaps the Canadians can pack their guns away because we don't. :Wink: 

But I still appreciate your point of view!

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## wildWoman

I didn't mean your big bazookas in the sky, I thought more of all the heavy metal you all seem to be toting around everywhere with you for protection from fellow citizens...

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## Rick

So was I. :Big Grin:

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## Chicago Dan

Yeah your right Bragg the U.S. needs a lot of help to fix our diminished and declining system. When I say help I mean what every other nation wants from the U.S., money. I also think Canada and its bountiful and enlightened ways also its proximity of being our neighbor to the north should lead the way. So send us money(gold, silver, platinum would be better) in aid to help our improvised nation. I therefore propose a new Canadian tax of 10% of all individual income in a purely altruistic and humanitarian gesture to be sent to the U.S. to be distributed to the populace as a whole. Come on papa needs a new ATV...LOL.

Ormaybe the Canadian military should invade the U.S. and help us overthrow our repressive and oppressive task masters. Yeah thats the ticket. 




> Why would anybody want to be in the shark infested economic environment that is Atlanta, NYC or Chicago???? -- hell, even Denver is a nightmare of competing interests....


Im not even sure what you mean here.
Shark infested economic environment- Are you talking about free men competing and dealing in free trade for their own interests? If so then Im all for it! The opposite is a socialist/communist system and we all know how fair and just those systems are LOL.

Therefore in conclusion Bragg you should send your altruistic 10% papa needs a new ATV tax to me.
Why me? Because I live in Chicago and I am according to your own statements being oppressed, denied, taken advantage of more than mostLOL.

Hurry though, I just saw an ad for a new TV and am feeling the pain of oppression and I really want to see the upcoming NFL season  in HDTVLMAO!!!

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## Ole WV Coot

That's the dumbest thing I have read in awhile. You don't have to cross the border or use anything from the USA. Invest your $$ in a 3rd world country or better yet come down to my part of the country and tell us how it would be great to live in a mud hut and especially tell us what a crappy country we have. We have the 1st Amendment so you can say what you want just don't expect anyone to agree. I really don't know why I answered a stupid post like this just go to Africa and take a couple of tractor tires with you, don't think your a$$ or head would fit thru a regular tire when they decide on barbecued pig for lunch.

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## wildWoman

I don't think that nationalism and patriotism are good things...they generally cause war. People get born in every country all over the planet, whereever their mothers happened to live at the time of their birth, I fail to see it as something to be proud of - to be of a certain nationality rather than another. Unless you actually immigrated to that country, your citizenship is nothing you lifted so much as a finger for. It's what each and everyone of us does with their personal lives and what sort of people we are that is something to be proud or ashamed of....IMO

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## crashdive123

> I don't think that nationalism and patriotism are good things...they generally cause war. People get born in every country all over the planet, whereever their mothers happened to live at the time of their birth, I fail to see it as something to be proud of - to be of a certain nationality rather than another. Unless you actually immigrated to that country, your citizenship is nothing you lifted so much as a finger for. It's what each and everyone of us does with their personal lives and what sort of people we are that is something to be proud or ashamed of....IMO


I am more proud of this country than I can express in words.  Why?  Is it because I served over 20 years in the military?  No.  I figure that was my way of paying back.  The thing that I am most proud of is that this country accepted my father.  He was a college student in Wetzler Germany studying electrical engineering when all of a sudden Hitler said that no Jews can go to school.  He left and came to the United States for the opportunities that were available.  Taught himself English by going to movies and studying hard.  He made this bold move with the support of his entire family.  A family, I might add that I never met.  They were all imprisoned and executed in concentration camps shortly after my father escaped.  So nationalism and patriotism.....you bet.

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## Tahyo

Bragg, I really like you man.  I like talking bbq with you and other cooking things, but geezuz xrist... where do you come up with this sh!t?  Do you make it up or just plagiarize it from somewhere?  It's pretty evident you have been greatly mislead about America.

I'm out of here for a while.  I didn't know this was going to be a fking soapbox for this kind of sh!t.

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## wildWoman

Yeah, but it works both ways, unfortunately...the Germans were mighty nationalistic and patriotic too, which led them down some very, very dark roads. I think the problems begin when people start thinking of one country or another as "the greatest on earth", and themselves and their nationality better than others. I really don't get it, at the end of the day we're all just people, and we all originated elsewhere. Through our jobs, volunteering and activism there may be ways to take part in shaping a country, but nationalism and patriotism make me personally very nervous. The values, boundaries, morals, and ethics of countries change over time, and these days the masses are pretty much led in their believes by media (probably in earlier times too). Humans have too much of a taste for war I think, and the whole spiel of being better than the Jonses IMO leads to conflict - Germany, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, heck the Spanish Inquisition...if people would just take pride in becoming and being good human beings instead of being so proud to have this or that faith, skin colour or nationality, might things not be different?

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## tacmedic

I find myself wondering if Bragg has ever spent any time in third world countries?  I have spent a great amount of time in many places in Central and South America as well as North Africa, and I have to tell you it's no picnic.  Does the American dollar go far?  Yes.  But that is about the most I can say for them.  The infrastructure just doesn't exist, I'll take the worst US city water over having to draw my water from a well that the whole community uses and dumps their waste in to.  I also second Pict's statement about never having been stopped in the US by the police or the military just so they could rummage through my vehicle and take whatever I had that they wanted.  I can't help but wonder if someone has been watching too many Michael Moore movies.

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## Sam Reeves

Most of what Bragg has said is true. America is on a fast decline while most of the rest of the world is on it's on it's way up. It's true. We've been drinking too much or our own bath water. Supposedly we are the toughest country in the world but when is the last time we actually won a war? 
The dollar sits at #4. We actually threaten to invade countries that want to sell their oil with the Euro. When the oil countries actually began to trade their oil with the Euro the dollar will be worthless. It's not like it is backed by gold anymore. The immigrants aren't assimilating they are building colonies. It ain't looking good for the home team.

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## Pict

Does the American dollar go far?  Um, not like it used to.  Here in Brazil the value of the US dollar has fallen by 53% since 2003.  We pay $5.50 a gallon for gas right now.  Mac

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## Teotwawki

I've been to 5 of the 7 continents (all over Europe, Asia, a little S. America, New Zealand) and I can tell ya first hand there is no place like home.  There is no place like home.

USA may not be perfect but it is still the best thing going.  In spite of my pessimism things will get fixed.

To me it is ALL about individual freedom:  to speak, the pray, to win, to lose, to succeed and to fail, to own a gun according to the original purpose of our founders.  

I'm a Natural Rights kinda guy for those who know what that means.

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## Rick

WW - I agree with part of what you are saying and take exception to part of it. I absolutely agree that I am no better or worse than anyone else because I'm an American. I don't look down on anyone because of where they came from. My own family migrated here from Sweden hundreds of years ago and probably came from the Germanic tribes before that so, as you said, I'm an American by birth. A lucky accident that my mother happened to live here. 

But I think you can separate between being patriotic and being bigoted. Frankly, this country has contributed an awful lot to the world and has accomplished much in the name of mankind. Hardly perfect but still pretty good in my eyes. My father and all of my uncles served in WWII. One in the south Pacific, the rest in Europe. One was wounded three times, one was captured on Christmas Day outside of Bastogne. My father served in the battle of Hurtgen Forest. Those are legacies I'm pretty damned proud of. A lot of people survived that horrible time because of the sacrifice Americans and others made. So, yea, I'm patriotic. I'm pretty proud of the Red, White and Blue. Got tears in my eyes when I stood in front of the Viet Nam Wall and read the names of some good friends. Stood in awe of the ghost like statues the walk the grounds of the Korean War Memorial. 

I look at the tons of relief supplies that go out to so many countries around the globe  and I guess I just realize how lucky I am that I was born here. Yeah, I'm patriotic.

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## Ken

Less than a week ago, I had the honor and privilege to be in the company of about 30 men and women, all active duty or recently retired military, from the rank of Brigadier General to Sergeant Major.  

I had some unforgettable converstions with many of them. I learned of how many of their fellow soldiers fought bravely and died honorably in the service of this nation.  After listening to the sacrifices that they, and the brave men and women under their command, had made on behalf of this nation, MY NATION, *and the innocent civilians of many other nations*, I felt truly humbled.

Men and Women.  Black, White, Hispanic-American, and Asian-American.  Catholics, Baptists, Jews, Methodists, and others I'm sure.  All like family to each other, and all united in their patriotism to the United States and in their sense of duty to be in harms way whenever called upon to protect and defend the people of ANY nation.

And there are hundreds of thousands more like them.  Guys like Crash who served this nation for months at a time under the surface of the ocean.  Guys like AKS, Beowulf, Klkak, and so many other forum members who risked their lives, in places they can't even talk about, defending not only this nation but the PRINCIPLES it stands for.  Each and every one of them have my most sincere thanks, genuine respect, and appreciation for the life I have been able to lead BECAUSE of them.

If we as a nation are guilty of anything, it is that we ask little or nothing in return for the incalculable aid and protection we have given to others.

I am proud to be a citizen of the United States of America.  Period.

And make no mistake about it.  Our biggest challenge as a nation in both the immediate and long-term future will not be economic disaster.  It will be the exercise of self control in our response to those nations who intentionally cause us harm, whether through terrorist or violent acts, economic warfare, or otherwise.

God Bless America.

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## Sam Reeves

> Does the American dollar go far?  Um, not like it used to.  Here in Brazil the value of the US dollar has fallen by 53% since 2003.  We pay $5.50 a gallon for gas right now.  Mac


Ouch! I just paid over $4 for gas.

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## BraggSurvivor

I mean no harm and I am not trying to bash the good old US of A, I write this crap to open the eyes of the Sheeple. (or at least ponder on) Unless there is change, I mean real change... what has been written can come to pass or all ready has...........

Do I believe everything I post?

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## crashdive123

> I mean no harm and I am not trying to bash the good old US of A, I write this crap to open the eyes of the Sheeple. (or at least ponder on) Unless there is change, I mean real change... what has been written can come to pass or all ready has...........
> 
> Do I believe everything I post?


I believe you when you say you want to help.  But sheeple????  Brother, I think you've got the wrong forum if that's your target audience.

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## Ole WV Coot

> I don't think that nationalism and patriotism are good things...they generally cause war. People get born in every country all over the planet, whereever their mothers happened to live at the time of their birth, I fail to see it as something to be proud of - to be of a certain nationality rather than another. Unless you actually immigrated to that country, your citizenship is nothing you lifted so much as a finger for. It's what each and everyone of us does with their personal lives and what sort of people we are that is something to be proud or ashamed of....IMO


I don't understand your thinking. I am Swedish, Scotch-Irish and 100% genuine American Redneck. My family has defended this country from the Revolutionary War until now. Every generation has given a hell of a lot for it and we are proud we did. The Scotch-Irish side did what needed to be done back to the 1700s and my Swedish side almost caught up with them although they didn't get here until the late 1800s. Most of our folks came here for something better and we found it and ain't gonna give it up without a fight. This peace & cloud nine stuff sounds good, but it ain't gonna happen. I will skip politics but I don't lean to the left on anything, and if I could make this a better place for my grandkids I would do it again and I haven't lost any sleep and don't plan on it.

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## Chicago Dan

> I mean no harm and I am not trying to bash the good old US of A, I write this crap to open the eyes of the Sheeple. (or at least ponder on) Unless there is change, I mean real change... what has been written can come to pass or all ready has...........
> 
> Do I believe everything I post?


Ah come on now!
Don't back out on us now. We need your help.
...and I want that HDTV...LOL

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## BraggSurvivor

Maybe you all are right, I concede......... feel free to email me when your 26 weeks of unemployment benefits run out......

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## crashdive123

Now see.  There you go.  I'm not sure what your assumptions are to the group that you're talking to, but why the sarcastic insults?  Do you know what the balance sheets of the people on the forum.  Some come here that are self sufficient.  Some come to learn to become more self sufficient.

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## Ken

Crash, we could probably up that to 30 weeks of unemployment benefits if we just cut back some on our NORAD protection coverage area.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## BraggSurvivor

> Now see.  There you go.  I'm not sure what your assumptions are to the group that you're talking to, but why the sarcastic insults?  Do you know what the balance sheets of the people on the forum.  Some come here that are self sufficient.  Some come to learn to become more self sufficient.


Sarcastic insults? Where did that come from. I was saying I concede. You all are obviously so smart you dont want to here about world economics from a high school drop out. 

I was also mentioning to email me as I might have a job for anyone that could be qualified enough to work for my corporation. (incase they lose their job,home,wife ect.)

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## wildWoman

Yeah well, Rick and Coot, I guess we can't all agree on everything...Some nations tend to have more nationalistic and patriotic populations and your country is one of 'em. Quebec would be another  :Big Grin:  Me, I'll stick with the moose...

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Sarcastic insults? Where did that come from. I was saying I concede. You all are obviously so smart you dont want to here about world economics from a high school drop out. 
> 
> I was also mentioning to email me as I might have a job for anyone that could be qualified enough to work for my corporation. (incase they lose their job,home,wife ect.)


Seemed more like you were telling us we were all gonna be unemployed due to the instability of the US economy but that you'll still be sitting pretty. Just how it came across to me. What kinda jobs are you offering? What does your corporation do, exactly?

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## wareagle69

yup k bec sure is a wild nation
almost struck a mooz yesterday morning little bugger jumped out on me but new brakes sprared me wrecking the cav, i need that fuel efficent car to get into town my gas bills are like 600 a month right now, seen lots of mooz and  bar so far this year

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## crashdive123

Bragg - I'm honestly not trying to get into a pi**ing contest.  My comment about sarcasm was directed to this 

"feel free to email me when your 26 weeks of unemployment benefits run out."  

Was it really your intent to make job offers??  I only ask because your other comment about me being so smart and not wanting to discuss world economics with a high school drop out also hints of sarcasm IMO.  

We've chatted many times.  I am no financial wiz - TDW is, and my accountant and financial planner are.  Have I ever questioned the sincerity of your posts?  Have I ever questioned your education level?  I admire anybody that has a dream, follows it and is successful.  For you that was providing for your family, becoming self sufficient and creating a successful company along the way.  

As you may have noticed in the past, I usually refrain from posting on the threads that are predicting ......(fill in the blank) other than to say that with the information that we're all doomed - I'd like to see some solutions to the possible impending doom.  That's all.

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## wildWoman

Hey WE/moose man, do you know how common or rare moose triplets are? We saw a set with their momma here a few years ago.

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## BraggSurvivor

My opoligies crash, maybe not totally honest as there may have been a bit of sarcasm involved. I need to take a break for a while, I've been working too hard lately and rubbing off in my posts. 

Again, I opoliguise.

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## wareagle69

> Hey WE/moose man, do you know how common or rare moose triplets are? We saw a set with their momma here a few years ago.


according to the ecology and management of the north american moose considered the bilbe of moose ecology the occurance of triplets is rare...personally only seen twins

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## crashdive123

No need for appologies.  We know your working hard.  Have a ---- what's that you call it??--- wobbly pop and all will be well.

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## wildWoman

> according to the ecology and management of the north american moose considered the bilbe of moose ecology the occurance of triplets is rare...personally only seen twins


thx...thought it wasn't too common.

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## crashdive123

> according to the ecology and management of the north american moose considered the bilbe of moose ecology the occurance of triplets is rare...personally only seen twins


Ok - here's a question for ya.  As you may know, Florida is not really considered moose country.  Moose triplets - I'm sure it's a beautiful sight.  But do they get PO'd if you get their names wrong?  It's just so hard with triplets.

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## nell67

> No need for appologies. We know your working hard. Have a ---- what's that you call it??--- wobbly pop and all will be well.


mmmm Think I'll have one as well,this thread has me going  :EEK!:  :Confused:  :Confused:  :EEK!:  huh?" 
,

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## wareagle69

naw hewy duwy and luwy and i'm mumble so now one can tell

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## crashdive123

That'll work.

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## wareagle69

well gotta feed the horses see ya'll later..

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## Ole WV Coot

> Yeah well, Rick and Coot, I guess we can't all agree on everything...Some nations tend to have more nationalistic and patriotic populations and your country is one of 'em. Quebec would be another  Me, I'll stick with the moose...


You have your opinion and I have mine and that makes the world go round. :Big Grin:  As usual I may come across a little too strong sometimes, sorry if I did. Maybe if I had a moose or two my blood pressure would stay down. :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

All moose conceive Triplets, if the feed is good through the winter, they can birth triplets, If the feed is marginal she will abort one fetus in Jan. if feed is still low in Feb. she will abort another, if feed is low in March she will abort the last fetus.

Moose will regulate population based on winter food.

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## Sam Reeves

> All moose conceive Triplets, if the feed is good through the winter, they can birth triplets, If the feed is marginal she will abort one fetus in Jan. if feed is still low in Feb. she will abort another, if feed is low in March she will abort the last fetus.
> 
> Moose will regulate population based on winter food.


Meanwhile America flirts with Sharia Law.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361903,00.html

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## BraggSurvivor

Thanks for the link Sam, hadnt read that one.....

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## Rick

Ever heard of the Guardian Angels?

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## wildWoman

> All moose conceive Triplets, if the feed is good through the winter, they can birth triplets, If the feed is marginal she will abort one fetus in Jan. if feed is still low in Feb. she will abort another, if feed is low in March she will abort the last fetus.
> 
> Moose will regulate population based on winter food.


Excellent info, hopeak! Any idea how the chances for survival are? We thought it was quite a sight but guessed that two would most likely get eaten by bears or wolves. Most moose here seem to calve twins, of which one always seems to die within the first few weeks. At least, we often see moose with 2 calves when they're still tiny, and later on, they always just have one calf with them.

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## Sourdough

> Excellent info, hopeak! Any idea how the chances for survival are? We thought it was quite a sight but guessed that two would most likely get eaten by bears or wolves. Most moose here seem to calve twins, of which one always seems to die within the first few weeks. At least, we often see moose with 2 calves when they're still tiny, and later on, they always just have one calf with them.



No way to calculate their chances, Golden and Bald Eagles can also be a problem, but it seems the Black Bears cull more moose than Brown Bears.

Bears will often kill the calf as it is being born, when the cow is defenseless.

One or three Grizzlies can kill hundreds caribou calves per day, The Caribou cows will go up in the soft snow to calf, there can be 3,000 to 10,000 cows birthing in one large bowl over a 5 day period. It is gross to watch.

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## Rick

Pretty gross thinking about it, too.

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## wildWoman

So the winter range of cows is crucial to the overall numbers of moose, then. Will be interesting to see what we have in terms of calves here this summer - only had one cold snap all winter and normal snow cover, but for some reason there were hardly any moose at their usual wintering grounds.
Also, something must have happened last summer because around here not many moose calves seemed to have survived at all; mostly saw single cows throughout fall and winter.

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## Sourdough

One of my yard cows had no calves this spring. Last year she birthed two, but a Brown Bear got them both. I know it was a brown bear as I found their feet, well seven of eight feet, and the bears tracks. They near killed her as she had two massive (18" X24") flaps of skin torn high on right shoulder and another on the opposite hind quarter. She made it, saw Her yesterday.

Survival can be cruel.

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## Chicago Dan

> I was also mentioning to email me as I might have a job for anyone that could be qualified enough to work for my corporation. (incase they lose their job,home,wife ect.)


Offering a job with your corporation. That can only be legitimately done by someone who is themselves productive. That I respect. We may not agree on some socio-econ topics but here we do. I wish you the best in your business endeavors.

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## trax

wow, what a cool thread. Bragg, I hope you're wearing hipwaders, partner, cuz you buried yourself in it this time.

I think America's probably going to hang in there for awhile, and if I really want third world living conditions, I'll go live on a reservation in Canada. 

Wildwoman, here's something interesting about Quebec that most people don't realize. Quebec was the first to raise volunteer armies in defense of Canada the three times in our history that we needed it. Quebec's anti-federal sentiments really came to the forefront during WW2 when they were the only part of Canada to consistently vote against conscription, then it just blossomed from there. (I'm not here to defend Quebec's nationalist sentiments, it's just information that most Canadians don't have)

I actually agree with most of what you said about the hockey and Timbits, but I am totally opposed to our current gun laws.

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## nell67

Whats a Timbit?

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## trax

> Whats a Timbit?


 Sorry honey, national secret  :Big Grin:  actually it's the donut center of Tim Horton's donuts. Not nearly as important as Tim Horton's coffee (national shrine!!) but still considered essential Canadian food source.

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## nell67

SO basically,it' a doughnut hole??

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## trax

> SO basically,it' a doughnut hole??


yep. but when you think about the actual hole in the donut, what happens to it after the donut is eaten?

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## wildWoman

The state of the states, timbits and moose....
Actually I think you helped me solve a riddle here, hopeak. 2006/07 we had record snowfalls, plus early and mid-winter extreme cold snaps. Which might have resulted in the cows giving birth to fewer calves than normal, so that in turn fewer calves survived because there were less for the predators to eat. Well at least it's a theory...
Anyway, what with the boyfriend gone for a few weeks, I think I'll cut my communication ties a bit and have myself some hermit time here in the woods, communing more with plants and animals than you cyber folks.
Good luck to "your" moose cow, hopeak...

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## nell67

My youngest son,when he was six,explained it to me this way,if your mouth is big enough to put the whole doughnut in,then the hole gets eaten,if your mouth is not big enough,then the hole gets away. I just let it go at that,LOL

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## Sam Reeves

> Ever heard of the Guardian Angels?


Comparing the Guardian Angels with the Nation of Islam?

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## BraggSurvivor

> Comparing the Guardian Angels with the Nation of Islam?
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Union vs non-union?

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## wareagle69

> All moose conceive Triplets, if the feed is good through the winter, they can birth triplets, If the feed is marginal she will abort one fetus in Jan. if feed is still low in Feb. she will abort another, if feed is low in March she will abort the last fetus.
> 
> Moose will regulate population based on winter food.


where'd ya come up with that baloney????????????

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## wareagle69

i'm still waiting

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## Sourdough

I am still waiting for a number, When someone calls me a lier......he puts up money, and bets that I am wrong, when I prove I am right I get the money, and that person has learned not to call me a lier. So how much money you want to bet......? Ya, feel lucky sniper. I am still waiting.......

Don't let the fact that I was a Professional Big Game Hunting Guide for 34 Years intimidate your willingness to put some real money where your mouth is........ :Smile:

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## Sourdough

I'm still waiting for an apology or an amount of money you want to bet that I am, what did you say, "where did I come up with that baloney......?"

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## Sam Reeves

> Union vs non-union?


More like goody-goody Boy Scouts types vs. Anti-White, Anti-American, Anti-Christian, Anti-Capitalism Islamic extremist. 

And we sixty four years ago we didn't want to get invaded by the Germans?

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## wareagle69

> I am still waiting for a number, When someone calls me a lier......he puts up money, and bets that I am wrong, when I prove I am right I get the money, and that person has learned not to call me a lier. So how much money you want to bet......? Ya, feel lucky sniper. I am still waiting.......
> 
> Don't let the fact that I was a Professional Big Game Hunting Guide for 34 Years intimidate your willingness to put some real money where your mouth is........


and don't let the fact that i work with biologists that are leading in the feild of moose management in perticularly dr vince crieghton deter you from accepting my bet...you are full of baloney and malarkey on this one hopeak

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## Sourdough

Put your money where your mouth is.........

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## Rick

Instead of shoving each other and yelling, "Oh, yea." Why don't one of you post your source and be done with it. They either do, don't or do sometimes so post a source.

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## Sam Reeves

I've got 500 cyberbucks on wareagle69.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## wareagle69

dued i'll give you dr creightons phone number e mal what ever google him you will see he is the leading expert in the world.. i never take a bet unless i know and can prove i am correct... i'll bet you .... someone come up with a survival item for me hopeless to bet on...

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## wareagle69

hello ello elo eooooooo sure is empty in here ere ere ere  wow there goes a tumbleweed blowin acroos the road hmmm town emptied out

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## BraggSurvivor

> I've got 500 cyberbucks on wareagle69.


Ah what the hell Sam, I'll take your bet and go with hopeak, since PM's went verticle today.  :Wink:  

<as i watch a momma moose and 3 babies playing in the pond out back>

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## wareagle69

if you recall the conversation ther bs its not about moose having triplets it is rare what hopless is claiming that all moose start with triplets then abort one at a time if conditions do not aloow for them...

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## Sam Reeves

> Ah what the hell Sam, I'll take your bet and go with hopeak, since PM's went verticle today.  
> 
> <as i watch a momma moose and 3 babies playing in the pond out back>


Your on!

How much do you reckon I can get for your cyberbucks at Ebay?

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## BraggSurvivor

> Your on!
> 
> How much do you reckon I can get for your cyberbucks at Ebay?


Um, say if the dollar is still around on monday....... say two shavings off a 100 ounce bar?   :Big Grin:

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## wareagle69

is see hopeless isn't here wonder if he's calling vince right now to find out how wrong he is...

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## Rick

As I said, send those worthless dollars to me. I'll even pay shipping for you.

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## Sam Reeves

> As I said, send those worthless dollars to me. I'll even pay shipping for you.


I'll trade them for the Pound, Euro or whatever limely currency Canada uses.

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency?u&...sb749pi31ai485

I'll even split the shipping with you.  :Big Grin: 

edit: except the Canuk buck. It seems to have lost some value.

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## Sourdough

......The first research on cow moose reproductive systems were done in the early 50's and the paper was published in 1959. Ask Dr. Vince If he has a copy of the study. Or maybe he has "Ecology and Management of North American Moose" by, Franzman and Schwartz. If not have him check with Rick Sinnett, Senior Moose biologist Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game. He might also check with Victor Van Ballenberghe, author of many papers and books on Moose. I just talked to Vic, this morning, He is in Denali National Park continuing 36 years of moose research for the United States Department of the Interior. Vic wrote several chapters in the reference book above stated.

I'll give you a small out, I said abort, and I should have said assimilate or absorbed. What happens is the embryo is is absorbed back into the system of the cow, if she is weak, injured, or malnourished.

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## BraggSurvivor

> I am still waiting, How much.......The first research on cow moose reproductive systems were done in the early 50's and the paper was published in 1959. Ask Dr. Vince If he has a copy of the study. Or maybe he has "Ecology and Management of North American Moose" by, Franzman and Schwartz. If not have him check with Rick Sinnett, Senior Moose biologist Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game. He might also check with Victor Van Ballenberghe, author of many papers and books on Moose. I just talked to Vic, this morning, He is in Denali National Park continuing 36 years of moose research for the United States Department of the Interior. Vic wrote several chapters in the reference book above stated.
> 
> I'll give you a small out, I said abort, and I should have said assimilate. What happens is the embryo is is absorbed back into the system of the cow, if she is weak, injured, or malnourished.


Not unlike cattle.......

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## crashdive123

Shucks guys, quit talking about me.

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## commoguy

> Supposedly we are the toughest country in the world but when is the last time we actually won a war? 
>  The immigrants aren't assimilating they are building colonies.


ok you must really live under a rock.  does dessert storm/shield ring a bell?  you know why they are building "colonies?" its becuase we are also one of the few, if not the only country without a national language.  therefore, no one is forcing them to "assimilate" as you so eloquently put it.  as for bragg well if you dont the like the country get the hell out.  no one is forcing you to stay, heck ill even help you move.  if you want to see a real crap hole of a country come visit iraq.  where 4 and a half foot tall piles of trash line the roads and back fenceline of just about every house.  i mean heck even the MUD HOUSES  have electricity and satellite television.  people wouldnt come to this country risking everything if there wasnt a better opportunity here than their home country.  doesnt matter how much better an opportunity, the fact remains it is still a better one.  i could even offer up somalia where people live in shanty towns in the landfills.  so the way i see it is if this country is sooo horrible you can do one of two things either run for political office and make some changes(more likely than not a lower level office where change can be made with much more ease) or you can gtfo.  

*note i apologize for the language.  when i saw this last night it pissed me to no end.  i actually had to goto turn off the laptop, goto sleep, then think up my reply.

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## Sam Reeves

> ok you must really live under a rock.  does dessert storm/shield ring a bell?


Operation Desert Shield was the defense of Saudi Arabia that never happened. Desert Storm is still being fought only now they call it something else. 


> you know why they are building "colonies?" its becuase we are also one of the few, if not the only country without a national language.  therefore, no one is forcing them to "assimilate" as you so eloquently put it.


The official language is English. And the immigrants come here because it is easy to take advantage of Americans.

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## Sourdough

Wareagle, If you want to call direct to Rick Sinnett, Senior Moose Biologist, Alaska Dept. Fish and Game, His direct line is (907) 267-2185. He could explain it to you or your Doctor.

Was there anything else sticking in your craw, about anything that I have said. Like maybe your wondering where there are that many Brown Bears concentrated.

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## BraggSurvivor

> *note i apologize for the language. when i saw this last night it pissed me to no end. i actually had to goto turn off the laptop, goto sleep, then think up my reply.


Wow, and a great reply it was. Your probably exhausted after that. Atta boy!  
 :Big Grin: 



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## wareagle69

well mr if you can read you would know that i own that book arleady and that dr vince wrote chapters 18 and 19, maybe have your dr read chapter chapter 4 maybe you should also then get back to me, oh yeah i also belong to the north american mosse federation,well just google it you'll figure it out but like rick said quote your source let me see and maybe pm me just your first name as i will be haveing a chat with your boy soon..

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## BraggSurvivor

> well mr if you can read you would know that i own that book arleady and that dr vince wrote chapters 18 and 19, maybe have your dr read chapter chapter 4 maybe you should also then get back to me, oh yeah i also belong to the north american mosse federation,well just google it you'll figure it out but like rick said quote your source let me see and maybe pm me just your first name as i will be haveing a chat with your boy soon..


North american mosse federation? Wow, impressive!

An MMA fighter, bull rider, killer Ranger, moose expert and a plumber and who lives in an area knee deep in gold and silver. If Brian from Family Guy wasnt already my hero......I'd pick you WE.   :Big Grin:

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## Rick

Is all this bravado necessary? Who really cares if the moose has 1 or 100. That isn't even what this is about. This has degraded into who is right. All three of you (yeah, Bragg. Your just adding to it) need to put a stop to it and move to another subject lest I close the thread.

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## wareagle69

so once again you are calling other peoples accomplishments bs and all your accomplishments are for real hmmm
no proplem rick hopepeak and i can settle this on the pm's if he is willing to.
 and bragg my first 3 accomplishments i have been retired from for over a decade but still am active in my wildlife rescue and rehab and well gotta make a living somehow so i guess i'll keep plumbing in the mines...have a great day...

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## BraggSurvivor

> Is all this bravado necessary? Who really cares if the moose has 1 or 100. That isn't even what this is about. This has degraded into who is right. All three of you (yeah, Bragg. Your just adding to it) need to put a stop to it and move to another subject lest I close the thread.


Thank goodness you stepped in Rick, I was on the verge of using my Super Master Baiter authority to qualm the situation.  :Big Grin: 

I'm pretty sure WE and I are just engaging in a little fun ribbing.....I know I am.

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## wareagle69

yup com on rick when since bragg joined the forum have he and i not sparred with each other.. gezze take your meds have a coke and a smile....

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## wareagle69

well i guess me and hope could start a thread on mosse fertilization that way hijacking won't happen which means around here we would need the military to stop all the hijacking that goes on here..

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## Sourdough

Wareagle, I got nothing else, what I stated is commonly accepted knowledge here, I think one answer is that Alaska has a more evolved, and much prettier moose, with superior intelligence, than those prehistoric, butt ugly, dimwitted Ontario Moose......... :Smile: 

Call Rick Sinnett Monday, he is a nice guy.

As to Moose fertilization, well I'll have to leave that to you, as I had my vasectomy years ago......... :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:

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## commoguy

> Operation Desert Shield was the defense of Saudi Arabia that never happened. Desert Storm is still being fought only now they call it something else. The official language is English. And the immigrants come here because it is easy to take advantage of Americans.


as i recall congress still declared war.  there is no official language of the united states check your history books.  its been long argued over whether or not we should have one cuz were the melting pot of the world.

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## Sam Reeves

> as i recall congress still declared war.


That doesn't we've won now does it? 


> there is no official language of the united states check your history books.  its been long argued over whether or not we should have one cuz were the melting pot of the world.


Seeing as how you obviously seem to have issues with grammar I can see why you would object to English. American history books are written in English. Why do you think that is?

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## Rick

> Seeing as how you obviously seem to have issues with grammar I can see why you would object to English. American history books are written in English. Why do you think that is?


Oh my God! That made me bust a gut. Too damn funny.....

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## Ken

> as i recall congress still declared war.


Uhhh, no, Congress did not declare war.

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## FVR

The President declares war, the congress then votes on it, after the fact.  Our last three wars, congress has been onboard, in the beginning.

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## Ken

The Constitution of the United States

Article. I. - The Legislative Branch

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

.........................


*To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;*

.........................

The last time Congress declared war was WWII.

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## Beo

"Operation Desert Shield was the defense of Saudi Arabia"
Big fat no there, Operation Desert Shield and Storm was to the defense of Kuwait, I fought in that war, went over at the end of 89 (Spet 89 exactly) and came home in June of 91. Saudi was a country we used to launch from. We defended Isreal from scuds.
Bragg, come on dude, I have so much pride in this country, served 8 years in the Army to pay back what my country did and does for me, live as free if not free'r than you and yeah this is the best place to live IMHO, and patriotism is a good thing and no it does not always lead to war. Just because this country is hitting a little hard times does not mean we are through, and people from all over the globe are dying to live here, its pretty easy to sit back and armchair quarterback but different to run the show, and what makes you think anyone here qualified would want to work for you? You seem to me like follower not a leader, more of the sheeple than some here, but is being a sheeple a bad thing? Sure gas is high here now, so what. I'll pay for it and drive where I wanna cause I can... and tote my big azz gun with me if I wanna cause I can... because I live in America.
And if we're so bad off then why does everyone else on this rock of a planet come to us for aid and assistance... hmmm, cause we get the job done and knuckle draggers and sheeple like you take advantage of it... and mister multimillion dollar corporation you are one of them people who has all the solutions to everything but just talks the game instead of getting into it, another rich guy eating away at the fabric of the common man.

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## Beo

Didn't we fight a tyrant 3000 miles away and then set a new one up here. As Ken spoke of.



> The Constitution of the United States
> Article. I. - The Legislative Branch
> Section 8 - Powers of Congress
> The Congress shall have Power To *lay and collect Taxes(don't need these)* Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
> To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
> To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
> 
> .........................
> 
> ...

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## Sam Reeves

> "Operation Desert Shield was the defense of Saudi Arabia"
> Big fat no there, Operation Desert Shield and Storm was to the defense of Kuwait, I fought in that war, went over at the end of 89 (Spet 89 exactly) and came home in June of 91. Saudi was a country we used to launch from. We defended Isreal from scuds.


No, invading the 19th providence of Iraq was plan C. Operation Desert Shield was to protect the oil fields of Saudi Arabia.

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## Bdog

I hear moose poo can be used as alternate fuel source.

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## Sourdough

> I hear moose poo can be used as alternate fuel source.


And ear-rings, and neck-less, and if your not getting enough fiber in your diet, you could :EEK!:

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## FVR

Everyone around the world hates the US, but they will take our money.

Everyone around the world hates the US, but for some reason they want to move here.

Everyone around the world hates the US, but when they are invaded, they want our help.


What the he ll is Canada going to do if they get invaded by another country?  Tell ya what they are going to do, Sir, President McCain, please save our as s'.

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## BraggSurvivor

> Everyone around the world hates the US, but they will take our money.
> 
> Everyone around the world hates the US, but for some reason they want to move here.
> 
> Everyone around the world hates the US, but when they are invaded, they want our help.
> 
> 
> What the he ll is Canada going to do if they get invaded by another country?  Tell ya what they are going to do, Sir, President McCain, please save our as s'.


We are invaded everyday? The door has been left open since the second world war. 

If we were to be militarily invaded.....we could help you out protecting us with our two used, broken down nuclear subs.  :Wink: 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3719760.stm

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## Omid

if you move u better be sure the place is safe. Know how many Americans have gotten murdered in 3rd world countries?

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## Omid

> "Operation Desert Shield was the defense of Saudi Arabia"
> Big fat no there, Operation Desert Shield and Storm was to the defense of Kuwait, I fought in that war, went over at the end of 89 (Spet 89 exactly) and came home in June of 91. Saudi was a country we used to launch from. We defended Isreal from scuds.


the world hates us because we keep on getting in their business.

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## BraggSurvivor

> if you move u better be sure the place is safe. Know how many Americans have gotten murdered in 3rd world countries?


I had a couple American buddies call me last year from NM requesting I send them a couple Canadian motorcycle patches for their jackets as they were riding their bikes to the tip of Argentina and back. When they got back from their ride they called me to tell me what a difference in attitude of the people they encountered. They said they felt safer and people were friendlier.

I attributed it to them being 6'2" - 6'6" and both over 265lbs.   :Big Grin:

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## crashdive123

Omid - don't quit school.

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## trax

> What the he ll is Canada going to do if they get invaded by another country?  Tell ya what they are going to do, Sir, President McCain, please save our as s'.


Now now Frank, I consider us and the US the best of buddies and I have espoused at length my admiration for your nation and your Bill of Rights and I have many friends in your great nation. The truth of the matter is, though, sir, that if Canada were ever invaded by any other country, (say Traxistan or Spudnation)  the US would say "Mr President, have your armed forces haul a$$ up there and protect our investments" since about 80% of our resource exploitation is American owned.

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## Rick

See? Now that right there is the attitude I'm talkin' about. Those North Korean little pukes could use a good dose of that. And those Iranian (We're going to be the Persian Empire again. Blah, blah, blah) goof balls. Nothing wrong with friendship. A couple of brewskies, an elk burger or two. Next thing you know we're sending a couple of billion their way in foreign aid and we're sucking the ground out from under them. Good trade off in my book.

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## Beo

Sam I don't know your age or where you got your information from, of course Desert Shield/Storm was all about oil, and not to protect the oil fields of Saudi Arabia that just came into play since we were using them as a staging point, but it was also about stopping the invasion of Kuwait, it is not a part of Iraq although it was in the past... but that was the past hence the word past. My info on Iraq comes from being there and the U.S. Army 101st Airborne's LRSD S-2 section, and SOCOM from the orders we were given from both, and what Gen. Powell stood in front of us (the U.S. troops) and said and believe this or not, I trust that man and would have followed him into hell and think he would have made an outstanding President, certainly better than the one we now have or the two goofballs we got running this year. 
Omid we are in everyone's business because everyone wants our help, part of the problem with being one, and I say one... of the big boys on the rock. Personally in my opinion the big boys on the block are the U.S. Great Britain, Canada, China (because of the 1,330,044,605 people as of July 2007), Australia, France, and several other nations. None of these include the middle east because the offer nothing but oil, which we have and are too stupid to use. Now I see the U.S. and Canada as more of brothers kinda thing with Australia not far behind and Britain as the mother of these countries. I have been to these countries and trained with their military *so all of my knowledge comes from that point of view,* I never visited any of these except for military training and working with them in the 1st Gulf War.
Take it for what its worth as its just my opinion.
Beo,
P.S. I f you have a problem with our country do something to help fix it, or pack your kit and don't let the door hit where the good Lord split ya, it is still the greatest Country on earth and best place to live, well next to Ireland  :Big Grin:

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## Beo

Gotta say Bragg, don't agree with what you said, but it does make for good conversation, knew I liked you for some reason.

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## Sam Reeves

> Sam I don't know your age or where you got your information from, of course Desert Shield/Storm was all about oil, and not to protect the oil fields of Saudi Arabia that just came into play since we were using them as a staging point, but it was also about stopping the invasion of Kuwait, it is not a part of Iraq although it was in the past... but that was the past hence the word past. My info on Iraq comes from being there and the U.S. Army 101st Airborne's LRSD S-2 section, and SOCOM from the orders we were given from both, and what Gen. Powell stood in front of us (the U.S. troops) and said and believe this or not, I trust that man and would have followed him into hell and think he would have made an outstanding President, certainly better than the one we now have or the two goofballs we got running this year.


Desert Shield and Desert Storm were two different events. It should be common knowledge just like it should be common that Iraq didn't use WMDs on their own people they used them on the Kurds after the Iran war. However, I do appreciate your service.

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## Sam Reeves

> the world hates us because we keep on getting in their business.


That's not the only reason America is so hated.




> See? Now that right there is the attitude I'm talkin' about. Those North Korean little pukes could use a good dose of that. And those Iranian (We're going to be the Persian Empire again. Blah, blah, blah) goof balls. Nothing wrong with friendship. A couple of brewskies, an elk burger or two. Next thing you know we're sending a couple of billion their way in foreign aid and we're sucking the ground out from under them. Good trade off in my book.

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## Rick

AAaaaaargghh!!! The Kurds were Iraqi. Good Lord, do some research!! And yes, I am the reason the whole world hates America. Very perceptive of you. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

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## crashdive123

Don't fall for it Rick.....not worth the trouble.

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## Rick

(kicks chat and walks away).

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## Sam Reeves

> AAaaaaargghh!!! The Kurds were Iraqi. Good Lord, do some research!!


No, it was a civil war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan




> And yes, I am the reason the whole world hates America. Very perceptive of you.


Just part of the reason, Rick.

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## Sam Reeves

> Don't fall for it Rick.....not worth the trouble.


Finally thinking for yourself?  :Smile: 

You usually just wait for Rick to give you an opinion. 

Personally I like to look both ways when I cross the street.

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## tacmedic

Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to the dark side

- master Yoda.

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## BraggSurvivor

> master Yoda.



The little guy from Star Wars said that? I'll be!

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## crashdive123

Sam - If you've got a problem with me, send me a pm.

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## chiggersngrits

> Suffering comes from regret.
> Anger comes from refusal.
> Ambition comes from vanity.
> Fear comes from calculation.
> Hate comes from envy.


hey remy, i don't get the "anger comes from refusal".  :Confused:  could you explain that one a little more? thanks

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## Sourdough

I think anger comes from constipation, and some people need to spend more time hiking and getting more fiber. Old sourdough saying,"He who takes BIG dump, has lightened up".. :EEK!:

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## Beo

Sam,
Desert Shield and Storm were not two different events, Operation Desert Shield was when US troops were moved into Saudi Arabia on August 7, 1990. This "wholly defensive" doctrine was to be quickly abandoned. On August 8, Iraq declared parts of Kuwait to be extensions of the Iraqi province of Basra and the rest to be the 19th province of Iraq.
Shortly after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait,President Bush started to deploy US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard units to Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Shield), while at the same time urging other countries to send their own forces to the scene. UN coalition-building efforts were so successful that by the time the fighting (Operation Desert Storm) began on January 16, 1991, twelve countries had sent naval forces, joining the regional states of Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states, as well as the huge array of the US Navy, which deployed six aircraft-carrier battle groups; eight countries had sent ground forces, joining the regional troops of Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates, as well as the seventeen heavy and six light brigades of the US Army and nine Marine regiments, with their large support and service forces; and four countries had sent combat aircraft, joining the local air forces of Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia, as well as the US Air Force, US Navy, and U.S. Marine aviation, for a grand total of 2,430 fixed-wing aircraft.
It went from being called Desert Shield to Desert Storm when we invaded them, nothing changed except the name. This knowledge comes from being there not listening to CNN and Wolfblitzer.

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## Beo

Remy, sup bro been a while.
Fear comes from calculation... Fear comes from lack of understanding, when man does not understand something he fears it. Fear is good as long as its controlled fear.
Hate comes from envy... no I can hate someone without envying them. I may hate gays doesn't mean I wanna be gay or envy what they have. I may hate terrorists, doesn't mean I envy them in any way. I may hate a biggot doesn't mean I wanna be a biggot or want what he has. (By the way I don't hate anyone those were examples)

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## trax

> Finally thinking for yourself?  --at least he's thinking _before_ expressing an opinion
> 
> Personally I like to look both ways when I cross the street[COLOR="Blue]


"].---and then wander aimlessly into traffic anyway?[/COLOR

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## Ken

Two simple observations I would like to share:

1.  Before arguing something as a "fact," it is a good idea to verify the accuracy of your information through several reputable sources.  Otherwise, the "fact" you are arguing may well be "fiction."

2.  Valid arguments must employ logic.  Most community college and state university evening divisions offer courses in "Logic."

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## Rick

First, they weren't Iraqi then you post a link that says they were Iraqi and post a link supporting your own argument against yourself. I'm going to stay out of this and see which one of you win.

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## trax

Maybe Ken will referree for him. Ken, you up for that? :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

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## Ken

> Maybe Ken will referree for him. Ken, you up for that?


I'll think seriously about it, Trax.  Three preconditions:

1.  I get to wear one of those black robes  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

2.  He's gonna' have to change chairs so I can get a better idea of which side he's arguing at any given time.  :Confused: 

3.  All arguments must be based on admissable evidence.  That means real facts, not unsupported assertions.  :Wink:

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## Sam Reeves

> First, they weren't Iraqi then you post a link that says they were Iraqi and post a link supporting your own argument against yourself. I'm going to stay out of this and see which one of you win.


I never said that they were not in Iraq. What I said was that Desert Shield was a defense of Saudi Arabia. Desert Strom was an assault on Iraq's troops. I also said that Iraq never used WMDs on their people. They used them on Kurds in Iraq. All of the above is true.

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## Sam Reeves

> Sam,
> Desert Shield and Storm were not two different events, Operation Desert Shield was when US troops were moved into Saudi Arabia on August 7, 1990. This "wholly defensive" doctrine was to be quickly abandoned. On August 8, Iraq declared parts of Kuwait to be extensions of the Iraqi province of Basra and the rest to be the 19th province of Iraq.
> Shortly after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait,President Bush started to deploy US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard units to Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Shield), while at the same time urging other countries to send their own forces to the scene. UN coalition-building efforts were so successful that by the time the fighting (Operation Desert Storm) began on January 16, 1991, twelve countries had sent naval forces, joining the regional states of Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states, as well as the huge array of the US Navy, which deployed six aircraft-carrier battle groups; eight countries had sent ground forces, joining the regional troops of Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates, as well as the seventeen heavy and six light brigades of the US Army and nine Marine regiments, with their large support and service forces; and four countries had sent combat aircraft, joining the local air forces of Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia, as well as the US Air Force, US Navy, and U.S. Marine aviation, for a grand total of 2,430 fixed-wing aircraft.
> It went from being called Desert Shield to Desert Storm when we invaded them, nothing changed except the name. This knowledge comes from being there not listening to CNN and Wolfblitzer.


I was probably too young to give a damn about CNN during the war. I get info from other vets.

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## Sam Reeves

> "].---and then wander aimlessly into traffic anyway?[/COLOR


Does the emperor of Freetraxistan disapprove of something I said?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## nell67

> To be angry, is to refuse to listen, to pay attention, to change, to adapt, to do, to accept, to tolerate, to be...
> It is the systematic refusal of anything that does not align with an idea, a belief.
> To be angry at, is to refuse to.


mmm,very good description of my teenaged son....

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## Rick

Sam - The Kurds are Iraqi. They live in Iraq. It's no different than Sioux or Floridians. They're still Americans. Sadam authorized the use of chemical weapons on his own people.

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## Beo

Sam don't let these guys get to you. I understand what your saying and like the conversation, and you are right about the WMDs, if I came off upset I'm not by a long shot. Nice to have another point of view and in the end we are not that far off.

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## Sam Reeves

> Maybe Ken will referree for him. Ken, you up for that?



I can't afford Ken.

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## Sam Reeves

> Sam - The Kurds are Iraqi. They live in Iraq. It's no different than Sioux or Floridians. They're still Americans. Sadam authorized the use of chemical weapons on his own people.


You are comparing American entitlement rights with a Middle Eastern Islamic government. Major logical fallacy.  :Big Grin: 

They were still wanting to fight and I reckon after the Iranian war Saddam was fed up with them.

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## Sam Reeves

> Sam don't let these guys get to you. I understand what your saying and like the conversation, and you are right about the WMDs, if I came off upset I'm not by a long shot. Nice to have another point of view and in the end we are not that far off.


Naw, it's just the internet. I don't get upset except for when some jerk keeps outbidding me on Ebay. 

Granted, I wasn't in Iraq but I doubt anybody here was in Iraq when he gassed the Kurds, either. 

I hope I haven't came across as an ***. I apologize if I have upset somebody.

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## Beo

I don't think you offended anyone.

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## Sam Reeves

> I don't think you offended anyone.


Good. I'm mostly just being playful and I do enjoy different points of view. But right now I'm late for car school.

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## trax

> Does the emperor of Freetraxistan disapprove of something I said?


Heck no Sam, you can go ahead and say whatever you want, whenever you want. I, in turn, will give it due consideration, as I will with anything I read here.

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## chiggersngrits

> To be angry, is to refuse to listen, to pay attention, to change, to adapt, to do, to accept, to tolerate, to be...
> It is the systematic refusal of anything that does not align with an idea, a belief.
> To be angry at, is to refuse to.


thanks remy.

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## chiggersngrits

> I think anger comes from constipation, and some people need to spend more time hiking and getting more fiber. Old sourdough saying,"He who takes BIG dump, has lightened up"..


well if anger = constipation then i guess joy = the trots. if so i couldn't have been happier for about 4 days last week. :Embarrassment:

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