# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Real MEN vs. Modern WIMP men or where did the adventure spirit go.

## Sourdough

A friend called yesterday to read to me something in the Oct. issue of Alaska Magazine. A piece about back in the 1930's when some businessmen in Fairbanks were dreaming of a road to Alaska. There was a vast uncharted, unexplored expanse between Fairbanks and America. So they get this guy to walk on snowshoes (Because he would not be able to cross unknown rivers in the summer) from Fairbanks to America. It was -30 degrees below the day he started in January. 1,500 miles alone, took three months, his parka weighed 7.5 pounds, his sleeping bag weighed 8 pounds. His gun was a .22 rifle.

No Goat-tex, no GPS, No maps. Just go.

Now days it's, "what is the best panties, what is the best shirtie, whats the lightest pack frame, because I am not man enough for 1.1 extra pounds. Would someone hold my hand, I am think of go out in the dark. WHAT happened to MEN.....?

If you read Alaska's Wolfman, He (Grasser) walked back and forth across Alaska, over and over, and over, North to south, East to west, west to east, in 1915. WHAT happened to the real MEN....?

Really, what happened in the last 50 to 80 years to men.

You see it a lot in this forum, everyone is looking for someone to go with them on hike, with a map, GPS, Headlight, GOAT-TEX this and that. And there sissy little 45 pound pack, MAN-UP...MEN.

H*LL you got your super, duper, Survival Knife..........MAN-UP. Stop living in your daydreams, and fantasies.

There are Damn few men on this Forum who could grab there gear, and walk into the wilderness for 3 to 6 months with zero fear in there gut. And I mean no map, no GPS, no new wonder thingie, just basic gear that real men did it with in the days when men were men. 

Sorry if I hurt anyones feeling. The time to man-up is now. America suffers from a lack of strong man spirit. Yes, the military turns out strong fighting men. But it is a different spirit, than the spirit I call forth here.

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## Fletcher

Yep what he said

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## Jericho117

Im with you on this one. I despise most modern day things.

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## Sourdough

I want to be clear that I am not raving against modern gear. As I am want to know what shifted in men, in societies expectations of men, of men expectations of them self.

What is it that made men just go, just go, they did it. Now it is talk about it, worry over each detail, each piece of gear has to be perfect, state of the art. Something shifted, in men, WHAT shifted. (Maybe it shifted with the space program, the endless checking and retesting of equipment).

You see young men here longing for it, questing for how to get it, It is something in our Mythology that has shifted. What was common, or semi-common for a man to do just 50 years ago, is now considered foolishly dangerous. WHY....????

It is not that human life is all that important. Today there are nearly (7) seven BILLION humans, vs. Just over one billion humans 100 years ago.

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## nell67

Hopeak,I think it has to do with more people living in the cities,and what drove them into the cities looking for jobs where they no longer worked the farms,hunted or ran trap lines in all kinds of inclimate weather,and we all know what pushed them to that 80 years ago.
Add to that the invention,and marketing of all the new gear that is now available,and people who have to have the very best and willing to spend the money on it.
It's getting cooler here now,and the Amish have started wearing their winter coats,and all through winter,they will wear that same winter coat, they may add a set of wool underwear,but throughout winter the only other noticeable addition to that coat,is a pair of gloves,and a blanket,if it is raining or snowing an umbrella completes their winter gear,at least when traveling.
Could we handle it like they do?? I don't think many of us could.

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## Sourdough

Nell, O.K. I buy that. But it is the spirit that is gone or shifted. I get what you are saying, but........if who and what men are has shifted that much.........what will the spirit of men be in 70 years....???

I see so many young men on this forum longing for something, questing.

Maybe it has to do with so many men raised without a strong father figure, or any father, or any man in their young life, there formidable years.

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## Sourdough

Joseph Campbell wrote extensively, about mythology, and the lack of any rite-of-passage for modern males.

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## FVR

GPS???  like I can afford one of those thingamabobs.  Goat tex, is that that breathable material that is waterproof?  Ya could always just not get wet or maybe suck it up I guess.

What you speak of is the pus sification of the American male.  It starts in school where the women of the world try and succeed in stealing away a boys adventures.  It is followed by the taking away of the young mans testosterone by expelling him when he gets into fights, general boy fights.

It then progress' as the male figure in the family, decides to leave the family in search of satisfying his selfish needs rather than sticking it out and raising his sons.

By high school, the young man is lost, his idols are those tv bad guys who seem to have everything that he does not.  He may venture on the other side of the law once or twice for small things, but society has made it to were if he smokes a joint, or gets in a fight that he ends up in a detention area where his ideals and goals slowly change.

If he is lucky, he will join the military and get some discipline that if he is lucky, may stick with him when he gets out.

He then finds himself, an adult male, sitting in front of a tv on sat. and sunday, mentally masturbating and dreaming of being a sports player that he so adores on the sports channel.  He takes another slug of beer, eats more nachos and returns to reality understanding that he just can't be what he dreams.

Oooops,,,,,,,,,kind of went off there.


There is nothing wrong with modern equipment.  It's not the equipment that makes the man, but rather the man.  So, if you pack up your gps, adorn your fashion statement gore tex hiking gear, and hit the woods.  It just does not matter, because you are hitting the woods.

I have been wondering the woods since I was 8 years old.  Many times if luck had not been with me, I would not have returned.  As I sit here, 45 years old, looking back at my adventures, civilian and military, I grin with joy as I've seen such things that many, even here have not.

I also frown as there are many who have seen such things that I just may not in my lifetime.

I don't care, if you walk in the woods with the latest expensive equipment while I walk in with a mixture of primitive and not so modern gear.

Just as long as you are walking in the woods.

And if you come up short, with all your fancy whoohawws, or they fail, and you're not an arsehole, you can take a seat at my fire and I'll share a cup of coffee, or whateve is on the spit with ya.

If'n you're a pompass arsehole, who had been making fun of my stickbow and primitive gear, gonna be a cold, wet, hungry night for you.

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## nell67

> Nell, O.K. I buy that. But it is the spirit that is gone or shifted. I get what you are saying, but........if who and what men are has shifted that much.........what will the spirit of men be in 70 years....???
> 
> I see so many young men on this forum longing for something, questing.
> 
> Maybe it has to do with so many men raised without a strong father figure, or any father, or any man in their young life, there formidable years.


 Maybe things are shifting back to where they are supposed to be hopeak? I don't know,but there sure seems to be several young ones who are looking in the right direction,they just don't know how to go about it,and with a lack of knowledgeable males to look up to in their communities,they come to places like this seeking what they are looking for.
Still,they just don't know how to ask for help either,maybe they think they have to sound like the gung ho macho wanna be's they see on TV,just like the little kid who puts moms best towel on and wants to be superman,these youngster buy every new knife and gizmo marketed to the survivalist mentality they pick up from all these survival shows they see,and get their feelings hurt when someone tells them that it just isn't that easy.

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## FVR

Maybe that's why they are here.  To get the real scoop.  

Nothing wrong with checking your gear, what you fail to miss is that in the old days, it was a way of life.  Life has changed and so has the survival.  

Nothing is to be gained by insulting one on his type of gear.  Constructive advise never hurts, but with an attitude, it sucks.

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## Fletcher

I see nothing wrong with high tec gear. what i see is guys think that it is necessary 
for his-her well being its not. its the persons SKILL with the gear they have!!!!!!!!!! However skill is not learned from a book or a TV you must go OUTSIDE to learn survival skills. No one call tell you how to hunt fish hike camp  you have got to DO IT  not read about it or watch it on TV or BUY it--- can't be done. If you live in a place where you can't hunt or fish or hike or camp WHY DO YOU LIVE THERE???????????????????????????????????

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## Sam

> A friend called yesterday to read to me something in the Oct. issue of Alaska Magazine. A piece about back in the 1930's when some businessmen in Fairbanks were dreaming of a road to Alaska. There was a vast uncharted, unexplored expanse between Fairbanks and America. So they get this guy to walk on snowshoes (Because he would not be able to cross unknown rivers in the summer) from Fairbanks to America. It was -30 degrees below the day he started in January. 1,500 miles alone, took three months, his parka weighed 7.5 pounds, his sleeping bag weighed 8 pounds. His gun was a .22 rifle.
> 
> No Goat-tex, no GPS, No maps. Just go.
> 
> Now days it's, "what is the best panties, what is the best shirtie, whats the lightest pack frame, because I am not man enough for 1.1 extra pounds. Would someone hold my hand, I am think of go out in the dark. WHAT happened to MEN.....?
> 
> If you read Alaska's Wolfman, He (Grasser) walked back and forth across Alaska, over and over, and over, North to south, East to west, west to east, in 1915. WHAT happened to the real MEN....?
> 
> Really, what happened in the last 50 to 80 years to men.
> ...


 Hopeak, I think I know what you are saying. You are not knocking modern gear, just the fact that men/women are not DOING anything about their dreams or potential. When I was a kid I was lucky to have a granddad that was willing to show me how to live in the moment and to 'step past fear' and take a chance at really living. I am engaged to a young lady and we talk about raising our own spawn. I say things like he/she will learn to shoot, fish, fight, and outdoorsy things that I feel make a person stronger and more confident. She says not until they are 'old enough' I think 8-9 years old for most of it, she says that is too young and they could be hurt. I think our society is doing our spirit in kinda like FVR said. I hope to change that in our family. 
 Sorry about the rant. 
-Sam

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## canid

hey now. i don't _need_ my goretex, it's just a luxury. see, i can do without it *twitch, twitch*.

it seems to me that i remember beint twice, three times as tough as a kid. i grew up in alaska and i remember trekking around every nook and cranny in my little edge of tongass i could find, soaked to the bone, in all seasons of the year just in the hope of seeing something new, even if it where a squirrel i didn't recognize. never died of exposure, never got so tired i started wondering if i was too far past the halfway point to bother turning back. i just liked to get out there.

i wonder if what we really need is to man up, or maby to grow back towards childhood a little bit, with it's dauntless ambition, playfull exuberance and wide eyed wonder. the world might look more like a place worth doing something in.

/my 2¢

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## tsitenha

The stripping down of any male values will have dire consequences if a social catastrophy takes place. Who is going to be able to protect and sustain his family if he has been held back and coddled, these skills are acquire throughout infancy, childhood and youth into adulthood, takes time. What are you going to get is over reaction to responses or no action just TALK it out, yah right!!

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## Sourdough

O.K. your doing good, I wonder if other than your own children, what as a society could be done...???

Clearly the "Boy Scouts of America" has been neutered, with fear of legal, and parental retribution.

Do we need a man scouts, like the old Youth Conservation Core (YCC) where they go are required to go live the the wilderness and build, or repair trails and bridges, etc. every summer?

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## tsitenha

Infrastructure works would be a start, they had these project in older days, expanded a mans look on life. but someone would assuradly misuse it and it would tumble down in chaos

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## Sourdough

Odd that as a country we have 850, Billion dollars for some things. Buy youth outdoor programs go broke.

Maybe it is as SAM said, you raise your kids as best as you can, and hope some government agency does not come down on you because you took your kid camping in the rain, or he cut himself.

Maybe the whole nanny state mentality is some how a part if the issue.

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## crashdive123

> Odd that as a country we have 850, Billion dollars for some things. Buy youth outdoor programs go broke.
> 
> Maybe it is as SAM said, you raise your kids as best as you can, and hope some government agency does not come down on you because you took your kid camping in the rain, or he cut himself.
> 
> Maybe the whole nanny state mentality is some how a part if the issue.


This, IMO is the root of the problem.  Too many are letting or expect government to raise their kids.

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## Sourdough

FVR, I am interested in the essence of why men were different 70 years ago. As for the gear, I don't care what people use, if they use it. I do have a issue with confusing spending the weekend in the wilderness with having spent the weekend at REI shopping, and that some people get the same rush form both, and collapse the two distinct domains, as being one and the same.

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## Sam

> Odd that as a country we have 850, Billion dollars for some things. Buy youth outdoor programs go broke.
> 
> Maybe it is as SAM said, you raise your kids as best as you can, and hope some government agency does not come down on you because you took your kid camping in the rain, or he cut himself.
> 
> Maybe the whole nanny state mentality is some how a part if the issue.


 Hopeak, I think the 'man' fears citizens that are self sustaining because we might not need them for EVERY LITTLE THING, (end rant) so you get the generation of people that don't know they are responsible for them selves.
-Sam

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## Sourdough

> This, IMO is the root of the problem.  Too many are letting or expect government to raise their kids.


But we have also allowed the government to supervise the day to day decisions parents are allowed to make with how strictly they can discipline their children. A child raised the way I was raised, (I have no complaints) would be taken and put in a foster home, which would be heavily regulated.

So the government did it, Women did it, Madison Avenue did it. It is not our fault.

But the problem is still there. Young men, and for all I know middle aged men, feel a hunger, and a drawnness to the outdoors/wilderness. But no good tutor/teacher to guide them.

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## crashdive123

Could people like Marlen Power-Johnston be the catalyst to reverse the trend?  http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...ol-081002.html

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## canid

man scouts, hrm...

i'm going to get adam carola and jimmy kimmel on the phone and see about setting something up.

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## Sourdough

You guy's are doing great....so here is a side question, and I hope I don't derail the conversation. But without saying it is you, is this a youth issue only..?? or are there a fair amount of middle aged or older men without basic outdoorsman skills, that feel a void.???

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## trax

I wonder how we made it from crawling up out of the primordial muck to the where we now build massive monuments to ourselves called cities without having to address hopeaks' question before? Ohhhh, I know, somewhere in human nature there's something that says do what you gotta do. How do you know that guy in 1930 didn't have any fear in his gut? He took on the job and did what he had to do. You think if someone had said to him here's some goretex and a gps he would have turned them down? I doubt it, he used what he had available, just like Remy's guy crushing the saber tooth's skull or whatever, got a rock...use a rock. Got a gps...use a gps. Personally, my style in the bush is a somewhere in between the two (never used a gps, wouldn't know how, couldn't be bothered) but the point is, (I know you weren't ranting against equipment) that humans will do what they have to in order to survive.

I know a single parent who raised five kids in the bush, ran a trapline every day in the winters of northern Manitoba, cut firewood, used  a .22 to kill moose (it was what was available) used natural medicines, homemade soaps and cleansers and made the kids clothes from store bought wool and animal hides. I don't think it ever crossed her mind that she had to "man-up" or when her son finally bought her a snowmobile and a .30-30 when he reached adulthood that she was becoming "pussified" I think she just figured life got easier because those things were now available to her.

To the young ones, yearning to do those kind of things, heck yeah go for it, all I've ever suggested is someone coming from an "urban" (read: 21st, or late 20th century) environment start off small and careful to get your basic training. Nothing is going to teach you better than bush time.

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## Sourdough

> lolll
> 
> Why make 1930 the year of the "real men" ?
> Why not go back 30 000 years and proclaim "them" real men ? They did not wear any silly coats, did not have snow shoes, and had a big stone to kill huge mammoths...now that, is a "real" man. 22s and sleeping bags are for sissies.
> 
> Did i mentioned they also lived in caves and could crush the skull of a saber-tooth tiger with one hand ?
> 
> Hopeak...it is called "evolution".
> It is the difference between dying at 30 of old age, or 100 still dancing the waltz and ****ing the nurse...The difference between set roles within families, and women becoming equals.
> ...



Remy, If I lived in Los Angles I might get enrolled in your intellectual mambo jumbo double talk. Your major skill is twisting conversations, with mental and linguistic masturbation. I can sure understand that, as you say "Strong man spirit scares you". How you like them APPLES...??? And just for the record: "Strong man spirit don't scare this cowboy"...... :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Ole WV Coot

Back when I was getting out of school we had this thing called a DRAFT. That might be an unfamiliar word to a lot of you but if you wanted adventure in far away countries, exotic women, meet new people and grow up to be a REAL man or die trying. You would get a personal letter that started : Greetings from the President.....why you just knew with the President's help you would be taught all sorts of things your momma never thought about teaching you. The job skills you were taught could get you a job with a nice man called "Mad Mike" and benefits just for the taking. Best of all you would be a REAL MAN.

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## Sourdough

Remy, As far as I am assessing it, you and your thinking is part of the problem. How you like them APPLES...???

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## canid

living in LA or AK bears little on the validity of the points remy raised, and i am inclined to ask; what in them you interperate as double talk?

i am able to see the validity both in your views and  in remy's and feel they both miss the crux of the issue [as does mine].

the arbitrary assignment of _manliness_ as the driving force behind ambition or individualism is as flawed as the notion that such agressive and masculine attitudes are without modern social merit.

point in case; machismo gets a lot of jobs done long after the muscle is ready to give up, but so does maternity or any other personal or emotional resolve.

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## canid

this is not to devalue the issue you raised, but only to point out a shortsight on both sides.

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## Sourdough

> living in LA or AK bears little on the validity of the points remy raised, and i am inclined to ask; what in them you interperate as double talk?
> 
> i am able to see the validity both in your views and  in Remy's and feel they both miss the crux of the issue [as does mine].
> 
> the arbitrary assignment of _manliness_ as the driving force behind ambition or individualism is as flawed as the notion that such aggressive and masculine attitudes are without modern social merit.
> 
> point in case; machismo gets a lot of jobs done long after the muscle is ready to give up, but so does maternity or any other personal or emotional resolve.


Canid, I am sorry, But I just love getting in Remy's face. You are correct, and "Real Men" was not a good choice of words on my part. So let me retract that (Retract that, is that sissy talk or what). I still maintain that there is a "Something" that did exist, that is rare to find today. And Remy's use of junior year college dorm talk always reminds me of Matt Damom, in Good Will Hunting. When Matt puts the student in his place who is using two dollar words for a fifty cent sentence, trying to wow the girls in the bar.

I like Remy, and I like him best when he talks straight across to us and not down to us. And I have seen his posts where he does not come on like a college professor. He is smart, and well educated, and so annoying sometimes. But I think he delights in pushing peoples buttons. And I enjoy steping on his toes, just to pee him off. :Smile:

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## rebel

1.  The guy who walked around in AK.  That was the job he was paid for, correct?

2.  Where can you go that hasn't already been adventurously explored?

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## Fletcher

> 1.  The guy who walked around in AK.  That was the job he was paid for, correct?
> 
> 2.  Where can you go that hasn't already been adventurously explored?


Let me and alot of others get this strait..........................
Are you asking HopeAk  where he's been that has not been adventurously
explored?   Well he was in a good mood all morning. Now you've done done it!!!!

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## Sourdough

[QUOTE=rebel;75486]1.  The guy who walked around in AK.  That was the job he was paid for, correct?


Not really, for sure not in 1915, later he was hired by the government to follow the 40 mile caribou herd.


2.  Where can you go that hasn't already been adventurously explored?


I look across Six-mile creek a an expanse of wilderness that has never been explored. Only a handfull of people have ever been over there, and that was mostly more than 100 years ago.

If you saw Alaska from a aircraft that top speed is 95 MPH you would see that there is still many large chunks of unexplored wilderness.

As I have said many times I walk out my back door and hike and never ever find any tracks but mine, and have never found a candy wrapper, beer can, or any sign of man. Sometimes I find 115 year old mining stuff, or 50 year old traps embedded in trees.

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## rebel

My questions were not obscure.  What are you saying Fletcher?

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## rebel

I would have thought all land areas would have had documented human contact by now.  

[QUOTE=hopeak;75488]


> 1.  The guy who walked around in AK.  That was the job he was paid for, correct?
> 
> 
> Not really, for sure not in 1915, later he was hired by the government to follow the 40 mile caribou herd.
> 
> 
> 2.  Where can you go that hasn't already been adventurously explored?
> 
> 
> ...

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## klkak

> I know a single parent who raised five kids in the bush, ran a trap line every day in the winters of northern Manitoba, cut firewood, used  a .22 to kill moose (it was what was available) used natural medicines, homemade soaps and cleansers and made the kids clothes from store bought wool and animal hides. I don't think it ever crossed her mind that she had to "man-up" or when her son finally bought her a snowmobile and a .30-30 when he reached adulthood that she was becoming "pussified" I think she just figured life got easier because those things were now available to her.


*Trax*, With minor exception you could be describing my Mother. 

*Hope*, The men you describe taking on the wild in the early days were for the most part few and far between. I have known a couple of them and they were a rare breed. Back in "the old days" I'm thinking folks were a little tougher. They had to work harder to compensate for the technology they used.

When my grandfather started logging he used a crosscut saw and an axe. It would take all day to fell a single Douglas fir or Ponderosa. His first power saw was so big it took a couple men to carry it and set it up. By the time he quit logging his saw was about 90 lbs. A faller today is using a saw that weighs 30 to 40 lbs.

What I'm getting at is. Why carry 100 lbs. of old technology when you can carry 40 lbs. of new. I am sure the fella you talked about walking to America would not have walked if he would have had a "Tundra" or "SWT" and the availability of fuel.

As to the young men and women who don't know anything about things wild. They were not raised close to the land. They and most likely their families were born and raise in the city. They have a desire but don't know where or how to fulfill it. Thats where you and I and the others here come in.

Nearly every day of the summer I get clients who have never even seen an ATV. I spend all day teaching and coaching them so that they can have a once in a lifetime experience. And when I'm out on the trail and come upon someone having difficulty, I will take a moment to coach them also if they are receptive.

I am far from being a saint. I am guilty of being sarcastic to some folks. But that is my sin to answer for. Every man and woman of us who have wisdom should without hesitation share it with those who seek it. In doing so we help a few who in return may help a few more.

I may be wrong but I don't think so.

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## Sourdough

[QUOTE=rebel;75491]I would have thought all land areas would have had documented human contact by now.  

A friend once pointed out that most trails in Alaska are on one side of a creek.

Cross the creek and there is no human sign. :Smile: 

Which nicely ties in with the subject that nowdays people stay on the trail.

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## Fletcher

> My questions were not obscure.  What are you saying Fletcher?


 HopeAK Has answered the question  there are thousands apond thousands
of acres unexplored 
 how about the amazon,  Africa, Canada, and more and more.

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## Fletcher

> How 're them beers treating ya?


Try again I don't use alcohol or drugs. Never have never will.

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## trax

> Back when I was getting out of school we had this thing called a DRAFT. ..... The job skills you were taught could get you a job with a nice man called "Mad Mike" and benefits just for the taking. Best of all you would be a REAL MAN.


Oh yeah, a REAL MAN, or ...you know....dead.

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## Sourdough

Well, I lost, You all win. My point was about spirit, but somehow it allway gets twisted into the equipment. And definding the equipment.

I am taking the .375 H&H for a walk. Just me a jacket, and the .375 H&H, no survival gear, no food.

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## kentuckyhiker

As men altogether we are just losing our 'primitive' roles. We are no longer the hunters and providers our great grandfathers were. todays society rules that convenience overrules need and necessity. Everything we need is at our fingertips. Not only that but we have been emasculated by modern media and pop culture. All things being equal there is no cultural imperative in civilized nations for a man to be a man anymore. There really is nothing left to seperate us from women in our daily lives. Men used to go out hunting, now they just play golf.

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## Monnster

Real men don't hang out on computers and messageboards!

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## rebel

Sorry 'bout that Mame.

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## FVR

Hop,

I think we may agree why men were diff. 70 years ago;  first, many were not scared of hard work; second, the family unit meaning the head of the household was the main means of support for the family; third, when you went out hunting, it was for food not wall ornaments; third, men were men, you got in a fight and that was it.  Many men carried knives but never pulled them on one another, because a fight was one thing, to kill was another.  Then let's not go into the guns, many as late as my time, were raised around guns and they were respected.


As far as the gear, look, we all get what we want one way or another.  It's like the big bad Harley riders, but these so called bad boys buy them for status.  They don't ride them to Daytona, but rather truck them there in their pickups and trailers.  They don the gear and live in their little make believe world for a weekend.  Then it's pack'm up, take'm home and store them in their garage.

Wonder how many so called bikers, actually had a bike for a single means of transportation.  I rode a bike for years as a single means of transport, when you boil it all down, it sucked.  Because, you HAD to ride it in the cold, rain, super hot weather, and even in the snow.

So, you have your talkers and you have your doers.  You can usually tell within the first few minutes of meeting them.  On the USMC board we call them POSERS.

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## FVR

Real men of the wilderness.

Now, I know men that are very good hunters and fisherman, but they are lousy fathers and husbands.

I know men who make large sums of money and can have almost anything they want and in some social circles, they are real men, but alas, some of these men also have girlfriends other than their wives.

So, the real man, what is it really?  

In my book, the real man is the one that takes care of the family first, then lives his wilderness dreams.



I think what you are seeing today is the romantasiscm of the outdoors.  It's like the young man who goes into the service to be a hero, but ends up dying with a bayonet lodged into his lungs.  It's like Mt. Everest, years ago it was a true heros story, now, if you have enough money and are in fair shape, you are gauranteed to to reach the top.  Granit, you can still make the ultimate sacrifice.

So there is this influx of people, trying to get back to something that they think they have lost.  One of the ways to do it, is to go to one of the super sized stores that are more interested in your money than your well being.

Maybe this is a turning point in the American culture.  Face it, Americans have always been considered the "John Waynes" of the world.  For good reason.

I enjoyed Remy's post, it makes alot of sense.  Had to read it twice though.LOL.

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## wareagle69

what happened to men ? lots my friend, as was stated 1 billion 100 years ago vs 7 billion now means more predators it is a fear based society now i used to dissapear all day and come home late at night, never a worry try that now, also we have been taught to be ashamed of our selves i blame oprah and dr phil and richard simmons. if you are assertive then you are classed as aggressive, ah so many things to say about this my head is spinning, in my generation when i got into fights i was sent to rehab have one beer put the kid in rehab, that and now we are so lost in our own worlds, i have said many times how materialistic we all our our sense of entitlement says be jealous of others that have more not happy for them, i feel sorry for the human race if i lost it all tommorrow the only thing i would mourn is my wife.
i live in the moment and lately my moments are pushing more and more to the bush to challenge myself good thoughts my boy i will see ya'll soon again

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## klkak

> Hope[/B],As to the young men and women who don't know anything about things wild. They were not raised close to the land. They and most likely their families were born and raise in the city. They have a desire but don't know where or how to fulfill it. Thats where you and I and the others here come in.
> 
> I am far from being a saint. I am guilty of being sarcastic to some folks. But that is my sin to answer for. Every man and woman of us who have wisdom should without hesitation share it with those who seek it. In doing so we help a few who in return may help a few more.


Hope, I got what you were trying to say.

----------


## Sourdough

> Hope, I got what you were trying to say.


Thank you neighbor, see you at the gunshow in Palmer this coming weekend.

----------


## Deer Sniper

I just gotta throw in here.

What problem do you have with the Boy Scouts? Hiking, Camping, Shooting, Rock Climbing, Archery, Fishing, even survival skills training are all Boy Scout activities. Remember that each troop is different, and while some troops go on hiking and camping trips every month some do not. This generally depends on the leadership in that troop. Often the leaders want to, But do not have any experience in the outdoors. Do not blame the Boy Scouts for this. What you can do is volunteer with a troop in your area, or have a local organization you are a member of ( Church, conservation organization, V.F.W. hall, etc. ) sponsor a troop and supply leadership with those skills and the desire to teach them to these boys. You really can make a difference in a kids life. And help protect the outdoor sports we all love by teaching a new generation of outdoorsmen._  Estote Parati_ - Steve  :Smile:

----------


## klkak

> Thank you neighbor, see you at the gunshow in Palmer this coming weekend.


I'm gonna try to be there on Saturday. I'll be the guy with the V.N. era tiger stripe boonie hat.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rick

Essence of men? They didn't have a choice. My guess is the fella that hiked to America in a parka that weighed 7.5 pounds had little choice in what his parka weighed. He was just glad to have a parka. And was he any less of a man because he wore that parka and not some animal hide that would have been the norm a couple of generations before him? Now those Neanderthals, those were men!! 

Still, I see plenty of tough men all around me today. Guys that are single family parents. That's pretty tough in my book. Guys coming home from places like France, Burma, Korea, Viet Nam, Granada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq. Tough as nails, the whole bunch. 

Men that still throw a baseball or football or take their kid fishing or whatever. Guys that take time with their families. That's pretty tough in my book, too. 

There's still guys lugging chain saws in the Northwest or sweating on some oil rig in anytown USA. Still sandhogs working in New York and truck drivers all over this country. Still a lot of kids joining the service and coming home men...no matter what shape they come home in. 

No, Hopeak. Men haven't changed much. Real men are still supporting their families and making a living and doing the "right" things in life. Just their options have changed making some of their choices a lot easier. Ask the guys that marched into the Hurtgen Forrest wearing wet wool if they would have preferred to do it in Goretex. My guess is yes, to the man.

Think about how much dirt you've moved with that dozer. Does it make you any less of a man because you did it with a dozer instead of a shovel? Nope. You just had the choice of an easier way to do it and you chose it. That makes you smart in my book, too.

----------


## trax

Hope, I could grab what you're talking about, 'tis why I said what I said, but I believe wholeheartedly that the spirit is still there. The further people get from living close to the land on a daily basis, the harder it is for them to develop those basic skills that wilderness survival entails, so they come here. So those of us with some experience share, this is the modern day campfire brother. I posted what I did about that woman to show....it ain't about the equipment, she did what she had to do without modern equipment and what she had to do got easier for her with some modern equipment, ergo....use what's available to you has always been one of the first tenets of surviving to me. I wanted to take the conversation a bit away from the "man-up" thinking, cuz it ain't testosterone based, but yeah...it'll always be about the spirit.

----------


## Sourdough

Remy,
Thank you for the well written, helpful, useful, and thread forwarding post, and I really appreciate it when you use normal man languaging.....Thank you

----------


## bulrush

What shifted for men? Well, several things. 

Office work became higher paying, so men migrated to higher paying office jobs. Their wives want more material things, so the men have to get more eduction and work harder to pay off credit cards. With little or no need to hunt, hunting became unnecessary for most families. With more people moving to cities, there was less exposure to the outdoors. Plus there's been less physical work being done by people, so they are out of shape in general.

With more disposable income, people just buy any equipment they think they need, or the experts tell them they need, instead of making it themselves.

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## nell67

Don't dump it off on women,men are just as guilty as women in wanting more material things,in that regard,I think men and women are equal,I do not think they are equal in all things though.

----------


## bulrush

Remy's questions always get me thinking. Speaking of philosophers, when I picture a typical American philosopher, I see him as a hippie-type wearing tie-dyed shirt, sandals, and round sunglasses with long hair. 

Why can't a modern philosopher wear a cowboy hat, a long leather coat, carry a 12 gauge, and smoke a fat stogie?

----------


## bulrush

> Don't dump it off on women,men are just as guilty as women in wanting more material things,in that regard,I think men and women are equal,I do not think they are equal in all things though.


I wasn't dumping it all on women. You are right, many men are quite materialistic too. Except for myself. It's just my nature. 

And for the record, men and women ARE EQUALLY valuable. They just have different skills.

----------


## nell67

And for the record, men and women ARE EQUALLY valuable. They just have different skills.[/quote]

I'll concede that point.

----------


## ryaninmichigan

> Remy,
> Thank you for the well written, helpful, useful, and thread forwarding post, and I really appreciate it when you use normal man languaging.....Thank you


 :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  Thats is funny.

----------


## Sourdough

> Thats is funny.


Was not ment to be funny.......

----------


## ryaninmichigan

It was funny to me. 

The world is not what it used to be, People do not garden, hunt, make stuf at home cause our world has made it easier to buy those things. My whole family still gardens, cans food, makes sausage, hunts, fishes. We do this cause it is part of who we are. So our children will apreciate these things and the lessons they teach. My family probably to some extent still live by the codes of 100 years ago. If the log splitter makes life easier then why would I use my axe?

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## Rick

Are we still yammering about this stuff? Sorry, Hopeak. Remy was a real man, picked up a real hammer and hit a real nail squarely on the head with his post. You might not like it but that doesn't make it any less accurate.

----------


## FVR

The story goes that he was a man
of proper wit and adventurous spirit... 

...suited to the mountains.



l'm half horse, half gator,
and a touch of the earthquake.   

l got the prettiest gal,
fastest horse...

...ugliest dog this side of hell.

l can out-jump, out-run, throw down...   

...drag out and whip
any man.

----------


## ryaninmichigan

thats me....

----------


## Gray Wolf

You keep your hair pilgrim...

----------


## Sourdough

Rick, What part of post #57 did you not understand.......?

----------


## Rick

My reference was to #s 24 and 27.

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## klkak

> The story goes that he was a man
> of proper wit and adventurous spirit... 
> 
> ...suited to the mountains.
> 
> 
> 
> l'm half horse, half gator,
> and a touch of the earthquake.   
> ...


I liked that movie. Made me want to be a mountain man. When I mentioned this to my grandfather he gave me a puzzled look and said "you already are"!

----------


## DOGMAN

> I liked that movie. Made me want to be a mountain man. When I mentioned this to my grandfather he gave me a puzzled look and said "you already are"!


Funny...that reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend last year about the lead character from the horror movie "Wolf Creek"

I was talking to my pal, about how disturbing the "killer" in the movie was because he was such a jovial, friendly guy who lived way out in the hills.

My buddy said, "you were disturbed?- the whole time I was watching the movie...I kept thinking he reminded me of you... You don't need to worry, because your not the kind of guy who gets killed in scary movies...your more like the...ohh never mind, you get what I am saying"

----------


## klkak

> Funny...that reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend last year about the lead character from the horror movie "Wolf Creek"
> 
> I was talking to my pal, about how disturbing the "killer" in the movie was because he was such a jovial, friendly guy who lived way out in the hills.
> 
> My buddy said, "you were disturbed?- the whole time I was watching the movie...I kept thinking he reminded me of you... You don't need to worry, because your not the kind of guy who gets killed in scary movies...your more like the...ohh never mind, you get what I am saying"


That gave me a chuckle. I could almost envision the conversation.

----------


## klkak

TrapperRick, Welcome to the forum. I invite you to check out the section titled "*Introductions*" and tell us a little about yourself.

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## trax

> ......My buddy said, "you were disturbed?- the whole time I was watching the movie...I kept thinking he reminded me of you... You don't need to worry, because your not the kind of guy who gets killed in scary movies...your more like the...ohh never mind, you get what I am saying"


"ahem" Jason you recall a post I made a couple months back about how you and I could go hunting together any ol' time? Yeah, well, mmm-hmmm, I uh...yeah...think I'm uhhh...busy that week yeah that's it, You understand right? :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## Sourdough

You know the part of the movie "JAWS" when the professional sharks hunter yells to the Cop, "What's Happening"......and the cop Say's, "Your going to need a bigger boat"....?

I was guiding a moose hunter, and we came on a fairly good sized brown bear, and he wanted to photograph it. It is a long story, but the bear started stalking us. It lasted a long time, he shot three rolls of 35mm film.

The hunter and I are talking, I am talking to the bear also, he ever so slowly in a ever closing circle closes on me, as I keep moving to stay between the bear and hunter. I have the bear covered, I am now yelling at him, and telling the hunter to throw rocks at the bear, but don't hit it. So the bear stalks right up to 15 feet of me, stops, then slowly stalks away, again in a ever enlarging semi-circle.

So when it is over the hunter Say's, "is that normal"...? All I could say was, "I am going to need a bigger gun".

And the guides in base camp herd the story from the hunter which was months be for I got back to base camp. Anyway my nickname became: "Biggun"

----------


## trax

That's good hope, gettin' the other guy to throw the rocks....get the bear pi$$ed off at the other guy!  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Sourdough

> That's good hope, gettin' the other guy to throw the rocks....get the bear pi$$ed off at the other guy!


He was younger, I knew I could not out run him......So I used trickery. Old people got lot's of tricks, that is how they got old....... :Smile:

----------


## trax

No arguments out of me on that one, LOL.

----------


## DOGMAN

> The time to man-up is now. America suffers from a lack of strong man spirit. Yes, the military turns out strong fighting men. But it is a different spirit, than the spirit I call forth here.



I agree with you Hopeak.  I often think about the guys of the Lewis & Clark expedition, and the men of the fur trade era, and all the early settlers and explorers of the West and Alaska- and I think about how America was built on the backs of men like those.

Then I take a look around at the majority of modern men (including myself) and I just can't figure out what happened. How did we get so soft and comfortable.  I think the reason there is so much mental illness, drug and alcohol abuse and just general disfunction in our society is because of our softness and contentment.  We're not challenged enough day to day, and we don't really challenge ourselves, so we've grown weak. Our nation, which depends on the sweat and determination of its men- has unfortuanlty grown weak because of us.

----------


## Sourdough

Jason brings the thread back, I never wanted the thread to be about modern equipment vs. the best available gear 70 or 80 years ago.

So can't anything be done as a society....? I fear that only if things got much worse would the qualities I call forth, show up.

I kind of like the idea that after high school graduation, or sooner if you dropped out or got kicked out, that every youth would be drafted into the YCC, for six months. (Youth Conservation Core) for those who jump to the end of threads.

Many here have said that they could do, or that others could do the things men did 100 years ago. I think the closest we have today is the astronauts. Remember it is the spirit I am talking about.

----------


## Rick

I guess I don't get it. The way I see it they did all those things because they had to. 200 years from now I'm sure they will look back on us as "real men". It's a matter of perspective. It's easy to look back and say how durable they were but ask my grandfather if bouncing in the back of a wagon all the way to the hospital with a ruptured appendix made him tougher. He didn't have a choice. And I imagine he would have loved for a shiny advanced life support ambulance to have picked him up. 

He cut rail road timbers by hand because he didn't have a choice. 

They were tough because they had to be. The rest died. You don't hear about Jonathan Fellows because he's the one that got ate by the bear that Davy Crockett shot. You don't read about Abner Fairweather because he froze to death the first winter in the Rockies. 

The only ones you get to read about are the very very few that were lucky enough and tough enough and smart enough to survive. I doubt they cared about spirit one way or the other.

----------


## Rick

> Find the obstacles of today, and you will find the spirit of today.


Nicely said!!!

----------


## Rick

If I had said it, I would share. And I thought you were "honorable".

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## ryaninmichigan

watching everyone around you die to save honor is no honor at all.

----------


## DOGMAN

Rick and Remy, I just don't agree.  I'm not talking about toughness, or even hardiness...we're talking spirit here.  People being completly willing to throw themselves into the unknown for the spirit of adventure- never minding personal injury, lonliness, hardship, etc....Those guys in the old days undoubtedly took the best gear of their age and then commited themselves to the good of the universe. they had "to pay attention, be tolerent, coherent, intelligent and have forsight". but ultimatly they had to believe in themselves and the willingness of the universe to provide for them. 

THey didn't think in the back of their mind that someone would rescue them (physically, financially, emotionally etc..) This gave them a cleverness, and ability to think for themselves that few of us have today.  That gave them the inner strength to achieve the unimaginable.

It is regularly reported that my generation, will be the first in American History to achieve less than any other generation in American History.  Why is that?  Is it because there is nothing left to discover...or is it because we have become victims of our own conviences and comfort.  Few of us are willing to be uncomfortable anymore.  Sometimes to achieve greatness we have to be willing to suffer a little.

----------


## Sourdough

Jason, yes, that is what I am talking about. Here is what blows me away. I know what -35* below is. I have driven the Trans Alaska-Canada Hwy. several times, and seen the country it runs through. Just to start in Fairbanks at -35* in January and walk down the "HIGHWAY" 1,500 miles is only just ever so slightly do able, no help, no restaurants, no buildings, but you do get to stay on the HWY. I can see that do able by someone today.

But I can not grasp leaving today with the best modern gear, from Fairbanks, in January, and stay off the Highway, but you can parallel the Highway, 1,500 miles, even if you did it in 75 days, shooting all your food, five hours of daylight. It might take a better man that any I have ever known. Maybe a Lance Armstrong type.

For those who may not know: -35* might well be the warmest day for the next 60 days in that country, -55* or -70* should be expected.

----------


## Rick

Jason - Who did that? Who did any of those things just for adventure? They did it to escape persecution of one type or another, to find new trade routes (and were paid for their efforts) or trapped to make a living via barter or cash. The whole trapping (and later, buffalo slaughter) was a commercial interest. It wasn't about adventure. Folks traveled overland to California to get rich. They went to Alaska to get rich. Many of the major cities sprang up from trading posts. 

No different than today. There are still those few intrepid souls that do things just for adventure. They climb Mt. Everest or run the Ironman or sail across an ocean in an open row boat. But even those folks are sponsored or independently wealthy and can afford to live that way. And, like Fossett, many wind up dead. 

As for your generation not contributing, I'd like to see the source. One generation is pretty much like another except for the circumstances they find themselves in.

----------


## DOGMAN

> As for your generation not contributing, I'd like to see the source. One generation is pretty much like another except for the circumstances they find themselves in.


When I was in college this was a big topic. "Generation X" was forecasted to be the first generation in American History to not achieve a higher standard of living than their parents.  Also, it was predicted that our lifetime earnings would be lower than our parents because of how many baby boomers would still be in the work force during most of our working years.  It was also predicted that we would be the most debt ridden generation in American History- due to our lower earnings, easy availablity to credit, and our striving to maintain the standard of living to which we are accustomed.

I majored in Anthropology & Sociology and this was one of the main things I studied because, it was relevant history in the making. Here are some sources I dug up from the archives.  Feel free to do your own research on Generation X

Coupland, Douglas (1991), Generation X: Tales for an Accelerated Culture, New York: St. Martin's Press.
Giles, Jeff (1994), "Generalizations X," Newsweek, June 6, 62-72.
Hahn, Todd and David Verhaagen (1997), Reckless Hope:  Understanding and Reaching Baby Busters, Baker House Books.
Ratan, Suneel (1993), "Why Busters Hate Boomers," Fortune, October 4, 57-70.
Rushkoff, Douglas (1994), The GenX Reader, New York: Ballantine Books.
Strauss, Bill and Neil Howe (1991), Generations:  The History of America's Future, William Morrow Company.
Time (1990), "Proceeding With Caution," July 16, 56-62.
Zill, Nicholas and John Robinson (1995), "The Generation X Difference," American Demographics, April, 24-33.

----------


## DOGMAN

> Who did that? Who did any of those things just for adventure? They did it to escape persecution of one type or another, to find new trade routes (and were paid for their efforts) or trapped to make a living via barter or cash. The whole trapping (and later, buffalo slaughter) was a commercial interest. It wasn't about adventure. Folks traveled overland to California to get rich. They went to Alaska to get rich. Many of the major cities sprang up from trading posts.


Over 250,000 people went North to Alaska and the Yukon for the Klondike Gold Rush- and, of course money was a motivator.  But so was adventure- people left solid careers in cities for a taste of adventure and for hopes of money.  Joaquin Miller was a poet of that era who joined in on the rush, and he writes about the spirit of adventure, and the thrill of the unknown being just as big of a motivator for his comrades as gold.  In the writings of Jack London he also empasizes the motivations of the people he encounters- again, gold was only part of the motivation.

Jim Bridger and several other members of the L& C crew, kept going back to the Rockies- and rarely went back to urban areas to share in the success of the expedtion.  They'd make enough money to resupply then they'd be right back into the mountains. Mapping and trapping was just a way to gain enough money to resupply- not a way to get ahead.

This is the core of my argument:
"It is regularly reported that my generation, will be the first in American History to achieve less than any other generation in American History. Why is that? Is it because there is nothing left to discover...or is it because we have become victims of our own conviences and comfort. Few of us are willing to be uncomfortable anymore. Sometimes to achieve greatness we have to be willing to suffer a little. "

And, in some ways it is in agreement with what your saying- essentially that previous generations did what they did because they had to.

If you look at the declining state of our country- we need to be pushing the boundries and looking for adventure and new markets. But, as Hopeak alludes to we are to big of wimps to forsake our comfort for anything.

Comfort and convience is the oppiate of the masses

----------


## trax

Jason, I have to say, the people you're using as examples again were the few and the majority stayed behind or followed after when those few had made the wilds safer for them or blazed the trail they would follow. I can definitely see evidence of your's and hopeak's argument everywhere today, my fervent hope is that the spirit of adventure and the requisite willingness to possibly have to sacrifice creature comforts is still alive and I am certain that it is to some degree. We have new people every day asking us for advice, will they actually go out into the wilderness and follow through? Well, I hope so, there' still enough wild in North America for all of us and some could make the argument that there's nothing left undiscovered, but there's plenty left that's still pretty close to pristine.

By the way, do you read Robert Service as well?

_"There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold

The arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold..."_

----------


## Rick

...The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, But the queerest they ever did see Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge I cremated Sam McGee. 

I love that poem. I was in Skagway, Alaska the first time I ever heard it. 

Jason, I would submit that the new boundaries are macro and micro compared to yesterday's adventures. Today they are in micro biology and micro bionics. The new frontier is in digital electronics and communication or out among the stars. The new adventurers are not so much wilderness men but still have the same "right stuff" as Hopeak said. Their "right stuff" is just different. I believe your generation will take us to places my generation didn't even dream of. I listen to a talking Garmin and just shake my head. Some young engineer with for more over his shoulders than I do probably sketched it out on a knapkin while having a latte at Starbucks. 

In any case, I'll bet if you had taken the lure of gold away from folks like Jack London they would probably have written their chronicles on the edge of some San Franciso wharf. :Big Grin:

----------


## crashdive123

One of the members of our Submarine Veterans group recites The Cremation of Sam McGee at one of our annual gatherings.  Great poem.

----------


## DOGMAN

> Jason, I have to say, the people you're using as examples again were the few[/I]


During the time of the Klondike Gold Rush the population the USA was about 76 million people.  Nearly 250,000 people reportedly struck out to the Klondike to be a part of it.  Of course not all them made it to the Gold Fields, but at least they had the gumption to give it a shot.

Now, our population is over 300 million people.  Percentage wise that would be like every able bodied man in Memphis, Portland, Eugene and all of Montana heading somewhere.

I'd hardly say thats a "few" people.

----------


## Sourdough

Alaska Magazine, Finally sent me the story, I cried through most of it.

----------


## DOGMAN

I do agree that there are still Frontiers to explore- both in Wilderness, Space, technology, science, etc...

However, I just don't think there are many people in our society willing to sacrifice their creature comforts to explore them.

The next country to rise to "super power" status will ultimatly be made up of people with nothing to lose and everything to gain. They will be seeking adventure and prosperity and willing to accept whatever fate comes there way..."When you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose".

Meanwhile, we are lulling ourselves into submission, because we don't want to risk our comfort. This is why I'd say we are becoming a nation of wimps.  Why work to save money to buy something you want when you can "charge it" .. Why risk getting to hot, or to cold when you can stay in your climate controlled home or vehicle.  Why risk getting hurt in the name of adventure when you can sit at home or go to the mall and safely be entertained.

----------


## trax

> During the time of the Klondike Gold Rush the population the USA was about 76 million people.  Nearly 250,000 people reportedly struck out to the Klondike to be a part of it.  Of course not all them made it to the Gold Fields, but at least they had the gumption to give it a shot.
> 
> Now, our population is over 300 million people.  Percentage wise that would be like every able bodied man in Memphis, Portland, Eugene and all of Montana heading somewhere.
> 
> I'd hardly say thats a "few" people.



Uh yeah, I was thinking more along the lines that those 250,000 struck out based on, initially 3 guys who found gold....

----------


## DOGMAN

> Uh yeah, I was thinking more along the lines that those 250,000 struck out based on, initially 3 guys who found gold....


Undoubtedly, there are still people forging ahead.  For sure, there are hardy souls that stay up late, and get up early all in the name of mental or physical adventure.  But, in general the masses of this nation have become soft- and will never challenge themselves. 

However, the masses that built the USA into what it historically was were willing to put in the hours and the sweat to achieve greatness.  Unfortunatly, the masses today aren't willing to put in that same effort, because they don't want to miss the next episode of "American Idol".

----------


## crashdive123

Now ya see........that's what TIVO is for. :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## trax

> But, in general the masses of this nation have become soft- and will never challenge themselves. ....  Unfortunatly, the masses today aren't willing to put in that same effort, because they don't want to miss the next episode of "American Idol".


Never meant to argue against that point.

----------


## Sourdough

If you guy's read the original story, that was the basis for this thread, you would be clear what I am talking about.

----------


## trax

Oh yeah, I knew what you meant, I just think there's some out there that still have that spirit, both men and women.

----------


## Rick

Ditto. Ditto.

----------


## Sourdough

> Oh yeah, I knew what you meant, I just think there's some out there that still have that spirit, both men and women.


That is only because you ain't read the story.

----------


## Sourdough

There are rules to logic, there are rules to deductive logic. If you do not use the rules the conclusion is invalid. I know that you know that.......Remy. Now you know that I know that you use garbage logic.

----------


## Rick

That's been around for a very long time....garbage logic or not. :Wink:

----------


## crashdive123

> There are rules to logic, there are rules to deductive logic. If you do not use the rules the conclusion is invalid. I know that you know that.......Remy. Now you know that I know that you use garbage logic.


Regardless........I kind of liked the story.

----------


## Sourdough

> Regardless........I kind of liked the story.


I like the story also. I like and respect Remy. He is very smart. Very educated, and he like to study us. Which is fine, he brings a lot of wisdom to the conversation. Which after all is the point of a forum.

----------


## ryaninmichigan

> I like the story also. I like and respect Remy. He is very smart. Very educated, and he like to study us. Which is fine, he brings a lot of wisdom to the conversation. Which after all is the point of a forum.


I respect him also. But in the end I think he more show than go... (let it roll off Remy) I gave you a + and a - in the same post.

----------


## BraggSurvivor

I've read 'Art of a Horses Arse' years ago studying The Rise & Fall of the Roman Empire. If I remember correctly, the question was asked 'what were the ruts in the road'? Amazing facts really.

----------


## klkak

I'm not one who must have things explained out to the umpteenth decimal point.

"Train tracks are spaced 4' 8.5" because thats the spacing between the wheels under the rail cars".

In other words "Who cares weather the chicken or the egg came first". The important thing is: We have chickens and their eggs to eat.

----------


## Rick

And you thought you could get ahead of him...

----------


## wareagle69

> Remy's questions always get me thinking. Speaking of philosophers, when I picture a typical American philosopher, I see him as a hippie-type wearing tie-dyed shirt, sandals, and round sunglasses with long hair. 
> 
> Why can't a modern philosopher wear a cowboy hat, a long leather coat, carry a 12 gauge, and smoke a fat stogie?


his name was edward abbey

----------


## glocker36

> Odd that as a country we have 850, Billion dollars for some things. Buy youth outdoor programs go broke.
> 
> Maybe it is as SAM said, you raise your kids as best as you can, and hope some government agency does not come down on you because you took your kid camping in the rain, or he cut himself.
> 
> Maybe the whole nanny state mentality is some how a part if the issue.


*What the real man laws should be:*

Take care of your family

Be strong in your faith

Take responsibility for your actions

Help those that cannot help themselves

----------


## trax

> *What the real man laws should be:*
> 
> Take care of your family
> 
> Be strong in your faith
> 
> Take responsibility for your actions
> 
> Help those that cannot help themselves


four huh? Yeah, they look about right. I think I can remember four...nice job glocker

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## Rick

Here is a link to the article Hopeak referenced in the first post on this thread. It's a good article. 

http://www.alaskamagazine.com/index....1021&Itemid=46

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## Sourdough

Rick, Thank you for posting the article.

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## Rick

No trouble. When you purchase a Wilderness-Survival support agreement with a SUPER Moderator it comes with the package. :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

Why does it say "invalid" when I try to do attachments.....?

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## Rick

My guess is the attachment is too large. When you click on Go Advanced then Manage Attachments a window opens that lists the various file sizes. Your attachment must be less than or equal to the sizes listed for the file type.

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## Sourdough

I "Was" a fairly good Man about 35 years ago, or so I arrogantly thought till reading, that real men regularly hiked overland, not on trails 80 miles in 24 hours, with a light 40# pack. I never though about hiking non-stop for 24 hours, but in a survival situation one might have to.

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## hoosierarcher

> There are Damn few men on this Forum who could grab there gear, and walk into the wilderness for 3 to 6 months with zero fear in there gut.


I have to disagree with one aspect of this statement. Yes they were brave men to head into the unknown wild. However to say they did so "with zero fear in their gut" is a misconception. Bravery is not the absence of fear but the ability to hold fear in check and do what needs to be done.

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## Sourdough

> I have to disagree with one aspect of this statement. Yes the were brave men to head into the unknown wild. However to say they did so "with zero fear in their gut" is a misconception. Bravery is not the absence of fear but the ability to hold fear in check and do what needs to be done.



I agree 100%. You make a important point.

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## Sourdough

> Here is a link to the article Hopeak referenced in the first post on this thread. It's a good article. 
> 
> http://www.alaskamagazine.com/index....1021&Itemid=46




For those who are inclined to jump to the last post, here is the story.

----------


## your_comforting_company

Had to bump the original post




> A ... There was a vast uncharted, unexplored expanse between Fairbanks and America. ..guy to walk on snowshoes (Because he would not be able to cross unknown rivers in the summer) from Fairbanks to America. ..-30 degrees below the day he started in January. 1,500 miles alone, took three months, his 
> 
> parka weighed 7.5 pounds, 
> his sleeping bag weighed 8 pounds. 
> His gun was a .22 rifle.
> 
> No Goat-tex, no GPS, No maps. Just go.
> 
> *Now days it's, "what is the best panties, what is the best shirtie, whats the lightest pack frame, because I am not man enough for 1.1 extra pounds. Would someone hold my hand, I am think of go out in the dark. WHAT happened to MEN.....?*
> ...


This is my idea of what it's all about.

I say ditch the 45lb pack..
live off what the earth provides you.

That man did it for 3 months, walking all the way with only necessities that were essential to his life.

my personal ultimate goal is to be able to know more, take less, and survive comfortably.

If my dad can't take his packed down RAM and 4 wheeler and have a beer, he ain't goin!

I'm tellin you guys, I'm a different kind of guy than the adults I was around growin up. Me and my friends back then (don't know what happened to them really) had a different way of thinkin. If we were goin fishing for a week it meant anything you carried got wet. we would set out for days on end wading creeks, fishing all the way just for the fun of it. We'd sleep in the wet dirt, eat what we caught and had a lot of good times. Those were the good old days.

I wonder every day why I settled down and thought mediocre was good enough.

just to get back on track.. let me not say that we were not afraid for our lives at times, but we did what we had to do to get out of there. snakes, hogs, wildcats.. jagged rocks and high cliffs, down trees, flash floods.. it was hell and it's a wonder any of us are alive today. We did it because it made sense on a primal level. that basic animal level that the tv and "civilized society" takes away from you.

sorry for the rant, I had to read all the way back to the first page to see what we were talking about and that post really moved me. I could go on and on but thats enough for now.

----------


## Old GI

> I have to disagree with one aspect of this statement. Yes they were brave men to head into the unknown wild. However to say they did so "with zero fear in their gut" is a misconception. Bravery is not the absence of fear but the ability to hold fear in check and do what needs to be done.


That, Sir! is the essence of the matter! :Thumbup:

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## hunter63

Got here late I guess, seem y'all got this all figured out.
So, what happened to Remy?

----------


## pocomoonskyeyes

> Got here late I guess, seem y'all got this all figured out.
> So, what happened to Remy?


He still hangs around occasionally, He prefers to Lurk and not post. I PM ed him a month or two ago and that is what he told me. He just prefers to sit back and observe now. I think he logs in, in invisible mode, meaning that only the Mods can actually see when he is here.

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## hunter63

Reason I asked was that the qoutes are still there, but the orginal posts don't seem to be.
OK carry on....lots of good ideas all around.

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## crashdive123

He has deleted most of his posts over time.  His reasons are his own I guess, but it does leave you wondering sometimes when you read a thread.  I'd venture a guess that if he hadn't deleted any posts that he'd have well over 1000.

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## hunter63

Thanks for clearing that up, just looked odd.
I know everyone will not agree on a lot of stuff, but it is intresting to get different points of view.
It's kina why I enjoy hanging out here.

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## crashdive123

> Thanks for clearing that up, just looked odd.
> I know everyone will not agree on a lot of stuff, but it is intresting to get different points of view.
> It's kina why I enjoy hanging out here.


I have found that having multiple personalities helps me accomplish the same thing when I am not on-line.

Oh - you're just saying that!

No I'm not.

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## rwc1969

Originally Posted by Sourdough  

"There are Damn few men on this Forum who could grab there gear, and walk into the wilderness for 3 to 6 months with zero fear in there gut."

I agree with that 100%, but I don't agree as you posted that any man, past or present, would walk 80 miles thru the wilderness carrying a 40 lb. pack, etc. in 24 hours. I suppose it's possible, but very unlikely. If it was done it was in optimum conditions most likely on a well blazed and familiar trail. If a man did that back then he was a rare breed then too. 

You said something about mythology, well there's a lot of mytholgy in tales of old. I'm sure you realize that. Many of the manly figures of our past were just glorified thru the writings of some pencil necked geek who had no real knowledge of the outdoors. You need to keep that in mind. Sure they were tough, but a lot of that stuff you read is seriously blown outta proportion. 

Regardless, I think FVR summed it up fairly well in his first post on this thread. 

Most guys are denied and discouraged from this way of life at a young age and it continues into adulthood with rules and regulations. Also, I'm sure it was much easier living in the wildrness back in "the day". More game and no real regulations to follow.

If I could walkout into the wild, cut down trees, kill all the game I wanted, build fires wherever I felt like, brandish weapons, etc. I could easily live in the wild right now with very little modern stuff. But, for the most part it's illegal to do any of that around here. You will go to jail if you do. If you think that's bull**** then you should feel happy living a place that doesn't regulate the hell outta you. Because, for most of us it ain't so. I'm sure even alaska has far more regulations than it did 100 or even 50 years ago. Someone scoufed when I said it was a felony to carry a 4" folding pocketknife in you pocket here. Well it is a felony and I got in serious trouble at an early age for carrying one. I wasn't doing anything wrong, just hunting legally, with no prior record I got nailed hard and spent 6 months in juvenile detention. I know many other people who have got in trouble over the same or similar. Just because a pig was feeling frisky and judgemental I got screwed. It happens all the time man.

The reason those guys were so manly is because they most likeley did it all their life from a very young age and had people around them that supported that way of life or at least allowed it to flourish by not discouraging them from doing it or jailing them because of it.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, I think it's a good one, but do you, Sourdough think you are that man?

----------


## Sourdough

> I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, I think it's a good one, but do you, Sourdough think you are that man?



NOPE.......I never even got close, even at my personal peak, which was at about age 35.

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## rwc1969

Ya, me neither. I think i peaked physically at about 25-30. Even then I would spend up to 3 weeks in the wild with very little gear, but most always had the car or a store within 30 or so miles and rarely in the summer or winter, most times spring and fall. The most I ever packed was maybe 30 or 40 lbs. including my gun and rod/ reel. For me hiking 10 or so miles in a day with that was a bit much. Hopping over fallen trees, balancing across trees that fell across creeks, wading thru swamps, thickets, and such. It's not like walking a well defined trail or roadside that's for sure.

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## hoosierarcher

Another thing to bring up is that men like those that do what has not been done before or gone where no one has gone are and always have been rare. Your own statements show this SD. ONE man went. It is only after that one man does it and returns do a small number more pioneer.

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## Sourdough

JJ, My point is that, over and over we hear people say if the SHTF, that they would leave the "Lower 48" and somehow make their way to Canada or Alaska Wilderness, and live off the land. My goal is to point out the folly of this thinking without lots of research. Note: See my Blog post.

----------


## Mtnman Mike

> JJ, My point is that, over and over we hear people say if the SHTF, that they would leave the "Lower 48" and somehow make their way to Canada or Alaska Wilderness, and live off the land. My goal is to point out the folly of this thinking without lots of research. Note: See my Blog post.


There are still a few areas in the lower 48 states where people can live off the land.   For a while at least.   Canada and Alaska are not perfect survival areas although better than most.   I should not have to tell people here what those problems are.    And this probably is not the thread to discuss Alaska vs.  other areas.

About real men etc.  is that many of you have put it well.  I could go on and on about how suciety has changed, womens lib, etc. has changed people and seems like made many men more sissy etc.   And seems like most men don't want to get their hands dirty but just sit behind a computer or have some kind of sales or office job.   And kids today mostly would rather play video games, maybe even hike and shoot a deer on a computer but never in real life.   But I won't go on about all that. 

I think that one of the last real men who was able to do and live the way he wanted to "Alone in the Wilderness" building a good cabin Alone etc.  is Dick Proenneke. 

I aspire to be like him.   I am his age when he first set out into the wilderness - 51  and I try to be somewhat like him for I always hike alone, never have had fancy gear or a gps etc.       And try to live cheaply and do what I want and need to do and live differently than most people as I have tried to show with many pics    >     

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=9812

And here is something that seems to fit this thread >

The Men That Don't Fit In
         by Robert Service

There's a race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
They range the field and they rove the flood,
And they climb the mountain's crest;
Theirs is the curse of the gypsy blood,
And they don't know how to rest.

If they just went straight they might go far;
They are strong and brave and true;
But they're always tired of the things that are,
And they want the strange and new.
They say: "Could I find my proper groove,
What a deep mark I would make!"
So they chop and change, and each fresh move
Is only a fresh mistake.

And each forgets, as he strips and runs
With a brilliant, fitful pace,
It's the steady, quiet, plodding ones
Who win in the lifelong race.
And each forgets that his youth has fled,
Forgets that his prime is past,
Till he stands one day, with a hope that's dead,
In the glare of the truth at last.

----------


## owl_girl

> If you read Alaska's Wolfman, He (Grasser) walked back and forth across Alaska, over and over, and over, North to south, East to west, west to east, in 1915. WHAT happened to the real MEN....?


do you realize that if someone came to this forum and admitted they were planning to do this they would probably be chased out of the forum?




> And I mean no map, no GPS, no new wonder thingie, just basic gear that real men did it with in the days when men were men.


especially if they siad they wanted to do it without the GPS and wonder thingies. 




> The time to man-up is now. America suffers from a lack of strong man spirit.


woman suffer from this as well

----------


## hoosierarcher

There was a poem or book or something I read as a teenager that I only remember the gist of. When he had reached the end of his journey he wept, bitter tears of anguish, because this hero realized there were no more worlds left to conquer.
Also I saw many SciFi movies that dealt with the "diminishing level of human physical prowess" One had a line that was something like , The caveman was here, the medievel man here, American pioneers here and we are here.
Each a little lower on the prowess scale. I think part of this is going from hunter/gatherer to farmer to city dweller, from grower that lived with an intimate knowledge of the land and the Seasons to total consumers that make nothing and sit in front of first the radio, then the TV and now the computer order food delivered, etc.
One thing that I notice that is very obvious, I am taller and stronger than my father as are most of the men I went to high school with most of these men's son are smaller and weaker than they are. The difference? We grew up climbing trees, playing vacant lot sports, hiking in the woods, swimming in gravel pits, lakes and rivers, getting hurt, healing and getting hurt again. they grew up playing, friggin Soccer Without scoring with protective padding and sitting at video games more than playing outside and eating and drinking probably 10 times the sugar we ever had. I went up to a high school 4 years ago when I lived in California to teach a cooking class and the 17 year boys and girls were the same size on average(5'6"-5'9" and 145-155). And at least a good percentage were the decendents of wagon train pioneers. In the "fly over country" aka the MidWest it's a little better.
This all is linked to what SD was talking about. The last thing I'll say is something we traditional bowhunters have been saying for years. Modern men use gear and technology as a substitute for skills. One time hunting in California in the Sierras I came across a guy with all the latest gizmos and gear. I was stalking a trail carrying my longbow with a day pack on my back with three canteens fastened to it and one on my belt and a messenger bag over my shoulder at my hip. He said hello, asked what I was hunting and how I planned to kill anything "with a slow old fashioned bow like that" I told him my bow was faster than his. He opined that there was no way that was true. I asked if he had a small game arrow in his quiver and if so we'd put it to the test. I located a punky stump about 25 yards away and pointed it out to him. Then said, "starting standing side by side with all arrows in the quiver, you say go we'll get an arrow from our quiver and shoot at the stump, first one to have his arrow in the stump obviously has the faster bow." he said go and 1 second later my arrow was in the stump and he was still figuring out which pin to use. that longbow shot those heavy wood arrows 180 fps, his hightech compound shot his light weight carbons over 300 fps. But simply apparatus is faster to actually use. He didn't think it was funny as I did. He did think my showing him my compass and map when he asked if I had a GPS was funny.
I think a lot of the folks on this site have the courage to step into the unknown, as well as the skills, but making a living and providing for a family trumps the urge.

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## Sourdough

> I think that one of the last real men who was able to do and live the way he wanted to "Alone in the Wilderness" building a good cabin Alone etc.  is Dick Proenneke.




Mtnman Mike, I only met Dick twice and that was in Port Alsworth and in the mid 80's. I think that NativeDude had more time with him. Now I would like to know more about the guy who built the cabin that Dick used while building his cabin. 

A totally unrelated piece of Information, near Dicks cabin on Lake Clark is the remains of the Kijik Village.........the entire village (104 humans) was wiped-out in 1918 buy the "Influenza Pandemic". Two males were out of the village at that time hunting and lived. They with two women from Illiamna Village, were the start of the Nondalton Village.

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## Rick

You can change the earth under your feet
but never the sky over your head.

----------


## Batch

Sourdough, while I get the reasonomg for this topic, I could not help hearing your continued questioning of the audacity of that young man who wanted to go into the woods with just a knife.

Why? What would it change?

You could ask that of many things. Such as shooting a big buck with a particular rack that would score well. 

Climbing a particular mountain.

Riding rapids.

Wanting to catch a trophy fish.

Hiking a particular trail, such as the Appalachian Trail.

The willingness to venture out is the first step in any journey. All of the activities above sharpen skills needed to survive. Though they may just be done for personal satisfaction or ego.

A hunter who can score a big buck is probably going to be capable of putting a meat deer on the table. Though he may not actually know how to use the animal correctly.

I would rather be the hunter with his belly full of backstrap, then the computer survivalist with his head full of ideas never tried.

Climbing, boating, hiking and camping are not necessarily going to give you the skills you need to start great endeavors. But, they can be a start.

You could, I guess, start you fire making skills with a bowdrill. But, wouldn't you be better off with a lighter so you can focus on learning how to use natural tinder, kindling, and firewood?

As for manly men, I have met quite a few people on the trail that were very small height and build who were very conscious about there environment and the needs to survive in almost and conditions. All of these people carried modern gear.

I also have met folks that just fit into nature. Barefoot and grabbing a hold of any critter foolish enough to cross their path. No tent, no sleeping bag, no "survival gear". Just them and the woods. These guys would be laughed off of or banned from these forums. But, also would be least likely to read here. 

I myself grew up barefoot with an annual prescription to tetanus shots... :Innocent: 

I have couple of these guys in mind. They are often referred to as idiots. But, when you sit to tell the stories, they get more than their share told...

Anyway, just seems to me like we should encourage any steps into a survival mindset or outdoors lifestyle. 

As for this generation being smaller then the last. That just isn't true. They are both taller and fatter!

ttp://usgovinfo.about.com/od/healthc...tallbutfat.htm

One thing also to remember, if you took Jim Bridger or any other legendary mountain man and had them try to fill their own legendary shoes. You would probably be disappointed. Trappers and explorers have always been and probably will always be. But, in a brief period of time between around 1810 to the 1830's our nation was focused on western exploration and these men who braved the unknown were immortalized in tall tales and novels.

Later settling the west would give way to stories of cowboys where one man was attributed with the deeds of many and a back shooter became a lightning fast pistolero who fought at ten paces, only drawing after the other man had grabbed for his own gun.

Anyway, I think I missed my own point typing this... But, I already typed it so I am hitting submit. LOL

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## rwc1969

I think Hoosierarcher made a good point using the bow story.

It's one of the things that drives me crazy.  

People these days tend to rely on high tech without ever giving low tech a chance. many people ask what's the best site for a bow. I've often responded by asking them to try instinctive shooting first. I usually just get laughed off the board or outta the conversation and the person ends up buying the most expensive sights they can find. 

I don't understand why people are so eager to jump to high tek without first giving traditional ways a chance. It seems to me that most folks these days are more interested in high tek gadgets rather then the purpose for which they were created. Also, it seems people jump to the most expensive or popular without first considering lower cost less popular options.

The point being, a manly man today is vastly becoming the one with the most expensive high tek gear rather than the one who knows how or why to use it, or doesn't need it in the first place. People just aren't interested in low tek. No flashing colorful lights and buttons to push, no bragging about how much their bow cost, etc. I guess.

BTW, I never got lost until I started using GPS and compass. Now, I only use GPS to quickly find terrain features in an unknown woods or to mark locations in the same. I keep direction in my head and if I fail to do that I will usually become lost or at least disoriented.

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## Scoobywan

Most of the points made so far on this topic are pretty good, no true role models, different priorities nowadays, even the new high tech equipment making it so there is no need to learn "the old ways".  So now I'll throw in my 2 cents on this  :Smile:  ... another aspect that I think is a big issue in the world right now is the "medicate it away" factor.  If a child/teenager starts acting like they want to live a life that far off from the "normal life", parents worry and the kid ends up diagnosed with some mental disability and get medicated.  Even on these forums when the subject of "into the wild" was brought up most of the posts basically said "he shouldn't have stopped his medication".  So maybe those people you're reading about really weren't manly men, maybe they were just undermedicated. :P

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> I think a lot of the folks on this site have the courage to step into the unknown, as well as the skills, but making a living and providing for a family trumps the urge.


I think this might have more to do with it than many would think.We have "arrived" at a point where there isn't as much wild open places left as there once was,as well. I spent a lot of time in the woods as a kid,with no map,no compass,no firearm for most of it too. I once walked 18 miles(along backcountry roads - mostly dirt roads) to one of my Mom's friends house,just to "do it". I made it there a couple of hours before my Mom thought I would,and she grew up in the Depression. I had no father or male role model through most of my young life,Yet still attempted things I had read about in "mountain man stories" and what not. I think that the "Nerve" is still there,however the places and times are not. Yes I realize that there are places like Yellowstone and Alaska where there are vast wilderness areas. Yet those places are just not accessible to most people. I don't have the money to "just up and go", I have a family that I have to think about. Funny the same thing applied back then too,Maybe that is why there are so few who have done something like that regardless of day and time.

----------


## Ole WV Coot

How many of you can remember growing up without electricity, running water, wood cook stove, heat with coal in an open grate. Walk to the well in any weather, wake up in the morning with frost on the blanket and walk to school around the hill because the creek was the road if you had a vehicle? Probably not many besides me so I wonder what, in 2010 you need to go backward for? I use and know the old ways but I would much rather turn up the furnace instead of going to get a bucket of coal and burn on one side, freeze on the other trying to get warm. I plan on taking advantage of all the modern technology I can and have learned. I may get a little soft but the knowledge don't leave and you can survive if you are forced. I personally don't have the need to impress anyone with the little I know and have done. I sure don't want to put on a pack and hit the snow to prove anything when I can get the Jeep out, stocked with most everything and go when I want, but I won't because I think I have earned my recliner in front of the fire. Personal opinion always.

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## Rick

sjj -  You can only give out no more than 10 reputation points per each 24 hour period. You can give a reputation point to the same user only after you have given reputation to 20 other users. Basically, if you have given 'Joe' a reputation, you must give 20 other members reputation before you can rep Joe again.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> sff -  You can only give out no more than 10 reputation points per each 24 hour period. You can give a reputation point to the same user only after you have given reputation to 20 other users. Basically, if you have given 'Joe' a reputation, you must give 20 other members reputation before you can rep Joe again.


HUH? sff? you mean sjj?

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## crashdive123

He types fast.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> He types fast.


Apparently faster than his brain can keep up with!! LOL

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## Rick

I do believe that's what I said.  :Innocent:

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## crashdive123

Ain't it nice that an Administrator can edit and leave no trace?  Kind of the way we like to hike and camp huh?

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## Rick

I try to practice "Leave no Trace" in all things.

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## crashdive123

I'm the same way when I eat.

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## Sourdough

> HUH? sff? you mean sjj?




You turn them upside down they all look the same.............sjj vs. sff .... :Innocent:  :Innocent:  :Innocent: 

(what were you thinking i ment)

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## hunter63

It occurs to me, that is possible that a lot of "real men" are in the bush, and don't bother playing around on the 'net.
To busy Living.

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## klkak

> It occurs to me, that is possible that a lot of "real men" are in the bush, and don't bother playing around on the 'net.
> To busy Living.


Thats why I'm hardly ever on here in the summer and havent been on here much this winter.  Been in the bush.  By the way, being in the bush is only fun until you get cold.  It's also mostly hard work.

Most of my clients are outsiders who want a wilderness experience without the danger or discomfort.

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## Nativedude

> Sourdough wrote: *"A friend called yesterday to read to me something in the Oct. issue of Alaska Magazine. A piece about back in the 1930's when some businessmen in Fairbanks were dreaming of a road to Alaska. There was a vast uncharted, unexplored expanse between Fairbanks and America. So they get this guy to walk on snowshoes (Because he would not be able to cross unknown rivers in the summer) from Fairbanks to America. It was -30 degrees below the day he started in January. 1,500 miles alone, took three months, his parka weighed 7.5 pounds, his sleeping bag weighed 8 pounds. His gun was a .22 rifle.
> 
> No Goat-tex, no GPS, No maps. Just go.
> 
> Now days it's, "what is the best panties, what is the best shirtie, whats the lightest pack frame, because I am not man enough for 1.1 extra pounds. Would someone hold my hand, I am think of go out in the dark. WHAT happened to MEN.....?
> 
> If you read Alaska's Wolfman, He (Grasser) walked back and forth across Alaska, over and over, and over, North to south, East to west, west to east, in 1915. WHAT happened to the real MEN....?
> 
> Really, what happened in the last 50 to 80 years to men.
> ...


 :clap:   :Thumbup1:   :clap:   :Thumbup1:   :clap:   :Thumbup1:  BRAVO, EXEMPLARY POST SOURDOUGH! SPOT ON!!  :clap:   :Thumbup1:   :clap:   :Thumbup1:   :clap:   :Thumbup1: 
I've been wondering the exact same thing for many years. Too many men have become too effeminate, too soft. I used to hear all the time from women; _"I love a guy who's 'sensitive'"!_ Sensitivity gets you hurt or killed!!

I have never been afraid of being in the woods. You can drop me anywhere, and (while most would call it 'surviving') I would be, quite simply, living. Living to my fullest ability. The more remote, the better I like it!

No knife, no man-made fire starter, no extra clothing, no sleeping bag, etc. Mother Nature provides me everything I need.

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## crashdive123

Why thank you.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Rick

Well, real men or not, my idea of a "man" isn't beating around the wilderness for months on end. It may be for you and if it is cudos to you. My idea of a man is someone that raises his kids, gives them his time, teaches them, tutors them, guides them and gives them enough rope to learn on their own without getting hurt. My idea of a man is someone that can be a partner in a relationship. A friend, a confidant. Call me effeminate if you wish, I really don't mind but it's about priorities, to me. Mine have little to do with living a solitary life style. Mine has to do with raising my family and teaching them by being a living example (I hope). I think it's incredibly fortunate that we all have different priorities. That allows us to learn from one another and to offer different perspectives on the same subject.

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## crashdive123

System said I had to spread some rep around.  Nice post Rick.

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## Sourdough

Nice Post Rick, tried to give you a big greenie thingie :Innocent:  But Alas I could not do so. NOTE: For the record, Said green thingie was not attached to a Jolly Green Giant............... :Sneaky2:

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## Rick

I don't mean to sound disparaging to those in the wilderness. If it came across that way, I apologize. I respect how anyone chooses to live their life as long as it's lawful or doesn't harm others. I just tried to outline my philosophy and my priorities. (shrug)

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Dagnabit! I can't give ya' any rep either!! Shazbots!Nanoo Nanoo and all those other expletives that Mork used to say!!

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> Rick,
> 
> Thank you for the information kind sir - despite how goody it is


Yeah but he called you sff!! :Innocent:

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Call me effeminate if you wish,


Pfft....pu-leazzze! Just how many of us do you think can spell efim....afem...efeman.......what you said! :Innocent: 

 All joking aside, I agree with you, but I'd add that it has a lot to do with taking care of your obligations, and responsibilities. Not everyone has the same ones, but everybody has at least some. :Innocent:

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## Winnie

Speaking from a girlie point of view I think a real man is one who does take care of his responsibilties and/or obligations. JMO :Smile:

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## 2dumb2kwit

Oh...and I should add, that although I don't have children, I do think that raising children is the biggest responsibility that anyone can take on. I still think that "parent" is the most important job, in the world. It really ticks me off, when I see people not taking it seriously.

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## Justin Case

> Well, real men or not, my idea of a "man" isn't beating around the wilderness for months on end. It may be for you and if it is cudos to you. My idea of a man is someone that raises his kids, gives them his time, teaches them, tutors them, guides them and gives them enough rope to learn on their own without getting hurt. My idea of a man is someone that can be a partner in a relationship. A friend, a confidant. Call me effeminate if you wish, I really don't mind but it's about priorities, to me. Mine have little to do with living a solitary life style. Mine has to do with raising my family and teaching them by being a living example (I hope). I think it's incredibly fortunate that we all have different priorities. That allows us to learn from one another and to offer different perspectives on the same subject.


Excellent Post !  Well Said Indeed !!

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## Sourdough

> Excellent Post !  Well Said Indeed !!



Are your "BAITING" or just trying to bump your post count in the big'boy League......... :Innocent:

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## hoosierarcher

Why is it that when people try to add rep to me they can't? What have I done to deserve this? LOL

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## Sourdough

> Why is it that when people try to add rep to me they can't? What have I done to deserve this? LOL



I just sent you a greenie'thingie........I think your fixed...Buddy :Smile:

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## Justin Case

> Are your "BAITING" or just trying to bump your post count in the big'boy League.........


I told Rick He made an Excellent post as did many others,  Nothing more, Nothing Less,  What is wrong with you ?  Are you a heavy drinker ?

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## Sourdough

> What is wrong with you ?  Are you a heavy drinker ?



YES.........But, can still bring-on a # 10 Can of Woop-A$$......... :Sneaky2:

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## Justin Case

> YES.........But, can still bring-on a # 10 Can of Woop-A$$.........


You cant even build a door for your toilet.

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## Ken

The Battle of the Century.  :Innocent: 

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## Sourdough

> You cant even build a door for your toilet.



O' I could build it...........but "REAL-MEN" don't need doors even at -38* Below.

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## Justin Case

> O' I could build it...........but "REAL-MEN" don't need doors even at -38* Below.


They do if they could get a "REAL-WOMAN" to visit them.

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## Ken

Who will it be?   :Innocent: 

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## BENESSE

> Who will it be?  
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.



I smell a brand new classic (thread) in the making.
You and 2D started getting a little too friendly. :Sneaky2:

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## Sourdough

> They do if they could get a "REAL-WOMAN" to visit them.




YOUR......Not my TYPE............ :Sneaky2:

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## Justin Case

> YOUR......Not my TYPE............


Nothing is your type .

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## Ken

I feel another one coming...........   :Innocent: 

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## Justin Case

No Its Ok, I know How to use the ignore feature,,  SD no longer exists to me  :Smile:

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## rebel

Refrain  also works.  Just sayin'.

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## oldsoldier

Hmmm........ Maybe as nell said to a good extent. Men have become  more
"civalized" and "complacent" As time has passed the everyday challenges men had to endure have disapeered. No longer do they have to hunt for food the just drive down to the local costco. Why walk from A to B just jump in your Lexus and cruise  in style, don't work about getting lost just use your GPS or call for directions on your cellphone. Why "rough it" camping  when the latest luxury motor home is rented by the week. You see my point here.  

 IMO a lot of change has come from our educational system especially in college. Men are "conditioned" to be more sensetive, politically correct, and in tough with their " femenine side" when all the reasons to be "a real by golly he man" are gone then why be that way, especially when society in general looks down on it and condemns or at least frowns on and ridacules that kind of behavior.   I may be WAY of base but again just my opinion here.

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## Justin Case

> Hmmm........ Maybe as nell said to a good extent. Men have become  more
> "civalized" and "complacent" As time has passed the everyday challenges men had to endure have disapeered. No longer do they have to hunt for food the just drive down to the local costco. Why walk from A to B just jump in your Lexus and cruise  in style, don't work about getting lost just use your GPS or call for directions on your cellphone. Why "rough it" camping  when the latest luxury motor home is rented by the week. You see my point here.  
> 
>  IMO a lot of change has come from our educational system especially in college. Men are "conditioned" to be more sensetive, politically correct, and in tough with their " femenine side" when all the reasons to be "a real by golly he man" are gone then why be that way, especially when society in general looks down on it and condemns or at least frowns on and ridacules that kind of behavior.   I may be WAY of base but again just my opinion here.


Not Off base at all, !00% correct,  Only a fool would not take advantage of anything available to make life easier,   Maybe its Fun to go camping and "Rough It" But That is only fun for a few days ,,  you will quickly start missing your Hot shower and everything else ,,  IMO,  :Smile:

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## BENESSE

> Hmmm........ Maybe as nell said to a good extent. Men have become  more
> "civalized" and "complacent" (Civilized doesn't have to mean wimpy. Opening a door for a lady is good manners. Refraining from spitting on the street and belching in public, also a nice touch. Doesn't take away from your masculinity, imo.)As time has passed the everyday challenges men had to endure have disapeered. No longer do they have to hunt for food the just drive down to the local costco. (some still have to work their a$$ of to provide for their family.)Why walk from A to B just jump in your Lexus and cruise  in style, don't work about getting lost just use your GPS or call for directions on your cellphone. Why "rough it" camping  when the latest luxury motor home is rented by the week. You see my point here. (Maybe someone renting a motor home is a reward for hard work and sacrifices elsewhere. This may not be _my_ choice but I understand how someone might think it's the ultimate)
> 
>  IMO a lot of change has come from our educational system especially in college. Men are "conditioned" to be more sensetive, (nothing wrong with showing you give a damn) politically correct, and in tough with their " femenine side" when all the reasons to be "a real by golly he man" are gone then why be that way, especially when society in general looks down on it and condemns or at least frowns on and ridacules that kind of behavior.   I may be WAY of base but again just my opinion here. (It's easy to think that until you start noticing real life examples)


I think everyone still admires a "real man" and most would agree with what that definition includes (hard working, responsible, principled and fair) or doesn't.(violent, callous, with a sense of superiority based on faulty mores) Sourdough is no less of a "real man" just 'cause a commercial makes him cry, nor is Rick, just 'cause he wears thongs. And don't get me started on Ken.  :Smile:

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## DOGMAN

Benesse, i think your right on target.  When I see guys who are trying to act macho and show off their masculinity I usually view them as weak, poser, redneck wannabes...not real men.  Real men are guys that work hard, face responsibility, are kind to animals, children, women and show respect to everyone, and are polite in society.

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## Rick

OS - I think your comment on conditioning is absolutely correct. We are conditioned to view certain things as good and certain things as bad. In the 18th century, women of pear shape were most desirable. Today, curves are in. Same with clothing. The days of the wild man are passed yet many of us still have the old school conditioning to regret that ... even if just a little bit.

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## oldsoldier

Benessee I agree with you here as well IMO " good gentlemanship" shows IMO a true man, as does expressing your feeling toward your significant other. IMO going to the store to pick up those "items" for your wife/girlfriend, while you are out without embarresment, is a sign of a "real man"  That still don't mean you can't do the "he man thing" as well.

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## oldsoldier

> Not Off base at all, !00% correct,  Only a fool would not take advantage of anything available to make life easier,   Maybe its Fun to go camping and "Rough It" But That is only fun for a few days ,,  you will quickly start missing your Hot shower and everything else ,,  IMO,


 Agreed here. Enjoying it short term is GOOD. having the hot shower, the A/C and the fridge of cold ( insert favorite beverage here). Is also great.  Knowing that worse comes to worse, you can make it long term is PRICELESS.

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## Beans

I grew on  a farm in the 50's. Things have changed. WE would/could take a gun to school and hunt on the way home. Nowdays a kid draws a picture of a gun or says BANG he is suspended from school and has to go see a consulor.

IF we got into a fight, the parents would ask you if *you gave as good as you got*.
I agree with the statement about knives, they were tools you carried everyday even to school, NO one fought with them.

I became aware of the difference when I joined the USMC and the mix was city kids and country kids.  We ended up showing them how to start a fire in the rain Etc. When doing field training *US* country kids would spend a comfortable night and the City kids wouldn't be comfortable, It was just a lack of knowledge.

When you grow up chasing cows at night in 2-3 ft of snow and tracking them for several miles because they wanted to roam, hunting several times a week, sitting under a tree and listening to the Coon dogs howling after they treed a racoon, raising you own food, Grandmother was great at canning Veggies from the garden, doing you own butchering Etc you have a different life experience to draw upon then those that got what they needed from a store.

Crank telephones, party lines, baths in a wash tub, cistern water handcranked, wood cutting & chopping for heat and cooking, Shucking corn by hand, bucking hay bales Etc. I enjoy things they are now and wouldn't want to go back.

I liked Gym in school because I could shower afterwards.  At 66 years old I'm still addicted to showers and enjoy going to a motel/hotel and just standing in the shower daring the hot water to run out.  :Smile: 

My sons were taken camping, hunting Etc, Sleeping by an open fire wrapped in a blanket. They are still outdoormen today. But they will take a camper when they can, use a charcoal grill, sleeping bags, Goretex and all the othe things that make things more comfortable for them.

I tried to instill in them that a man will take a stand in his beliefs, and protect his family foremost.  I was sucessful.  They are also sucessful in their private and public lives.

They don't beat their chest, swing from vines, do drugs, abuse women or childern.

In MHO men still exist.  and I am proud to be a father to two MEN.

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## kyratshooter

Oh, back when I was in my 20s and 30s I shouldered my 70 pound load with pride and grunts.  I forced myself to geep going.  Saved the extra buck and carried the extra pound.

Three back surgeries and a heart attack latter I decided I did not want to stop being in the outdoor world.  Light gear it is!  And I am happy to have it.

And don't forget that in the 1920s and 30s the life expectancy of a male was 53.  Oddly, the biggist killer of outdoor professionals was phneumonia, followed by strangulated hernias.

Yep, they were real men, but only a few of them lasted long.  One out of five of the mountain men lasted more than one season.  Only a handfull died natural deaths.  Most of the '49ers went back east broke.  And never forget the good ole' Donner Party.

Where did the spirit go?  We have seen where it went right here on these pages.  It left when the men, and the women, decided the man needed to ask permission to go outside and smoke a cigar after supper.  Outside mind you, not in his easy chair.  When he had to come up with a good argument for buying a shotgun with the money he sweated to earn.  It came when he had to fight with his wife to take his kid hunting for the first time.  

It came when our economy finally crossed the line and two income families were the ones with all the good stuff.  When husband and wife decided the good stuff was more important than home and hearth.  Suddenly it is "my stuff" and "our stuff" and none of it is "his stuff" and "who said you could buy that?"

I think it was around the time Tom Hanks started doing the movies John Wayne should have done.

And the sack one used to carry his testicles became a zip lock bag in his wifes' purse.

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## Sourdough

Now "THAT" is a "Boots in the Field" Post if there ever was one.

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## BENESSE

> Where did the spirit go?  We have seen where it went right here on these pages.  It left when the men, and the women, decided the man needed to ask permission to go outside and smoke a cigar after supper.  Outside mind you, not in his easy chair.  When he had to come up with a good argument for buying a shotgun with the money he sweated to earn.  It came when he had to fight with his wife to take his kid hunting for the first time.  
> That's what happens when people choose the wrong mate. Did this difference in core values come out AFTER the wedding ceremony? If yes, then someone wasn't asking the right questions to begin with and was blinded by superficial things. Part of being a real man is also having the right judgment and priorities in life, IMHO. 
> 
> It came when our economy finally crossed the line and two income families were the ones with all the good stuff.  
> When husband and wife decided the good stuff was more important than home and hearth.  
> Now you need two incomes just to make ends meet, forget the good stuff. 
> 
> Suddenly it is "my stuff" and "our stuff" and none of it is "his stuff" and "who said you could buy that?"
> Again, _HE_ picked wrong. If he wanted just "his stuff", he should have stayed single. When he has the maturity to discern who to _share_ his life with, he shares everything in that life. The good, the bad, and all the stuff created together. He does it without even thinking about it. Something else a real man does? He marries a soul mate for life not a housekeeper or a trophy for the time being. 
> ...


And just to clarify...
I prefer my husband hang on to his cojones since I need the extra room in my purse for CCW.  :Wink:

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## Sourdough

> And just to clarify...
> I prefer my husband hang on to his cojones



 :Smash:  :Smash:  :Smash:

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## finallyME

I agree with Benesse here.  A lot has to do with who you marry, and how you treat each other.  A real man will see the real priorities and put kids and family before his own, just like a real wife/mother.  I do have to justify a major purchase like a shotgun.  A purchase that will only benefit me.  If my kids need shoes or a trip to the dentist, those come first.  My wife stays home a raises my kids.  The only money she sees is what I take home.  We have agreed that I can buy whatever I want, as long as she can do the same.  So, if I want that shotgun, all I have to do is save twice as much, then I don't have to ask permission.  If a marriage is to last forever, then both need to make sacrifices.

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## coyote hunter

I have to agree with Sourdough on this subject. There aren`t too many men today that could do what those old timers did back then with what they had to work with ! Look at a guy like Teddy Roosevelt, he had it all and his favorite place to be was roughing it in a hunting camp in the wilderness !

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Well hmmm....I guess I'd like to bid for the real man award...I can't hold a women but can sure as heck take care of myself and my child. I have been married 3 times...yep count'em 3. I have a first, third wife! I have a child by my second wife and refused child support as I am her Father. I have raised her mostly alone with full custody since she was 1. I did remarry my first wife when she was 5. She is 6 now....Lasted less than a year and will take longer to get divorced. I also have 2 houses, 3 dogs, a horse, and a donkey. Oh and I also have a 60 hr. a week job and have for 20 yrs. Lets see 3 trucks...2 boats...8 acres just sayin' I have so many choices and it is my way that nothing can stop the train! Is it stressful? Heck yeah, put us in church last Sunday. When it is all said and done I will have raised an Angel from  heaven! I never look back just keep up my fortitude and move forward.

Dad used to say " I beleive everything will be alright now that the pecking order is established!".

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## BENESSE

> Well hmmm....*I guess I'd like to bid for the real man award*...I can't hold a women but can sure as heck take care of myself and my child. I have been married 3 times...yep count'em 3. I have a first, third wife! I have a child by my second wife and refused child support as I am her Father. I have raised her mostly alone with full custody since she was 1. I did remarry my first wife when she was 5. She is 6 now....Lasted less than a year and will take longer to get divorced. I also have 2 houses, 3 dogs, a horse, and a donkey. Oh and I also have a 60 hr. a week job and have for 20 yrs. Lets see 3 trucks...2 boats...8 acres just sayin' I have so many choices and it is my way that nothing can stop the train! Is it stressful? Heck yeah, put us in church last Sunday. When it is all said and done I will have raised an Angel from  heaven! I never look back just keep up my fortitude and move forward.
> 
> Dad used to say " I beleive everything will be alright now that the pecking order is established!".


And you deserve it!
What's more, you teach your daughter by example every day what a real man is so that one day she'll be able to tell the difference and pick someone just like her daddy. That kind of legacy is worth more than any material thing you can give her.  :Smile:

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## Alaskan Survivalist

These are just personal views and my definition would be a person that rises to the challenge whatever it may be. It could be the man that goes to a demeaning job for 40 years to support is family or the other guy that charges a machine gun with a bayonet. It is an indominable spirit that will ALWAYS rise to the occasion. Many are untested but this does not mean they don't have it in them. There are a lot of excuses to take the easy way out these days. Real men can be good or bad and walking tall is threatening to the weak and frowned apon. In the early 1900's Japan was integrating with the rest of the world and felt they were loosing face because of thier fudal wars and the once revered Samoria were reduced to being street performers. One man chose thier defensive techniques to start the sport of Judo (the gentle way) in an effort to preserve that way without offending public opinion. I remember my father talking of the days of wooden ships and iron men and only point this out to say it has been going on a long time. Each advancement has weakened us becoming a crutch. Something primitive survivalists should take to heart. Just being out doors and being subjected to the elements all your life toughens you. I saw a show about aboriginy people up on the Nile, these guys had calouses on thier face from being sand blasted by blowing wind and sand. Men are soft and getting softer all the time. Still I believe it to be a mind set and as long as you rise to the challenge you can call yourself a "real" man but because we have become so soft many will be dead men, still a man though.

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## Justin Case

> Well hmmm....I guess I'd like to bid for the real man award...I can't hold a women but can sure as heck take care of myself and my child. I have been married 3 times...yep count'em 3. I have a first, third wife! I have a child by my second wife and refused child support as I am her Father. I have raised her mostly alone with full custody since she was 1. I did remarry my first wife when she was 5. She is 6 now....Lasted less than a year and will take longer to get divorced. I also have 2 houses, 3 dogs, a horse, and a donkey. Oh and I also have a 60 hr. a week job and have for 20 yrs. Lets see 3 trucks...2 boats...8 acres just sayin' I have so many choices and it is my way that nothing can stop the train! Is it stressful? Heck yeah, put us in church last Sunday. When it is all said and done I will have raised an Angel from  heaven! I never look back just keep up my fortitude and move forward.
> 
> Dad used to say " I beleive everything will be alright now that the pecking order is established!".


Good For You ,,  Here Comes some Rep !  wish It was More  :Smile:   TCB, Good Man !

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## alexander super-apple

Exactly! The Native Americans wore furs in the winter, and now everyones running around searching for Gore Tex and North Face and Camelbaks. Did the Native Americans have any of that? No. Were they far superior than ANY of us here in terms or survival skills? Definitely. I understand how you might bring sock liners in the winter to whisk away sweat and avoid blisters, or a knife with a VG10 blade rather than 440, but we take it all too far! We spend hundreds of dollars on the best boots. Theyre BOOTS! I understand not running off into the bush in crocs, but come on, people! The bottom line is, the human being has become soft. Thousands of years of inventing things with our precious intelligence has removed our need for things like night-vision and acute senses. Compared to any animal you'll find in the wild, we're soft, pathetic creatures that rely on equipment. Now we can't avoid that anymore, but we DO NOT NEED the _best_ gear. We just need to go. Man has become asphyxiated on his things being top of the line because man has come so far that he can have those things. We can actually make them. 50 years ago, did we have Gore Tex? Did we have Camelbaks? This dilema was actually easier for us because we didn't have to realize that those things aren't necessary. And we didn't have to realize that because those things didn't exist. The farther along we come, the tougher this is going to be. But the tougher we can become. We have to sit down and realize that those things aren't necessary, and we're still MEN.

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## Sarge47

> Exactly! The Native Americans wore furs in the winter, and now everyones running around searching for Gore Tex and North Face and Camelbaks. Did the Native Americans have any of that? No. Were they far superior than ANY of us here in terms or survival skills? Definitely. I understand how you might bring sock liners in the winter to whisk away sweat and avoid blisters, or a knife with a VG10 blade rather than 440, but we take it all too far! We spend hundreds of dollars on the best boots. Theyre BOOTS! I understand not running off into the bush in crocs, but come on, people! The bottom line is, the human being has become soft. Thousands of years of inventing things with our precious intelligence has removed our need for things like night-vision and acute senses. Compared to any animal you'll find in the wild, we're soft, pathetic creatures that rely on equipment. Now we can't avoid that anymore, but we DO NOT NEED the _best_ gear. We just need to go. Man has become asphyxiated on his things being top of the line because man has come so far that he can have those things. We can actually make them. 50 years ago, did we have Gore Tex? Did we have Camelbaks? This dilema was actually easier for us because we didn't have to realize that those things aren't necessary. And we didn't have to realize that because those things didn't exist. The farther along we come, the tougher this is going to be. But the tougher we can become. We have to sit down and realize that those things aren't necessary, and we're still MEN.


Well, we do have WOMEN on here as well, are you a chauvinist?  Back in the old days the  restrictions on what you could hunt wasn't like it is today.  Don't knock modern technology; it saves the lives of animals that might otherwise become extinct.  The American Bison is a good example.  Also, many lands that were wide open are now State Parks.  Life goes on.  I like the new tchno stuff, it saves wear & tear on a 63 year old!  :Cool2:

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## alexander super-apple

No, I respect that. My greatest wish is for everyone to live like the Native Americans, as I think I've stated, and if we did, we would respect the land and wouldn't need to protect nature by making state parks, or protect animals species. We would take only what we needed. The reason the American Bison is threatened is because people hunted it without respect. The plains indians would have never let the species become threatened, and had such respect for the earth that protecting it wouldn't be an issue.

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## Rick

Well, your facts are a bit out of phase with reality but okay. You're looking at this whole Native American thing from an overly optimistic eye. You aren't looking at how many starved or froze to death because they lived off the land. You aren't looking at how many died from disease because they simply didn't have appropriate medical care. You can Shaman yourself silly but if you don't have the appropriate meds then even a small infection becomes your death. 

I understand your desire to protect nature and all of us on here believe in that. But we also need to temper that understanding with simple fact. 

As to the plains Buffalo, it was hunted to near extinction to deprive the Native Americans of a vital resource and to capitalize on the hides. Mountains of carcasses lay rotting in the sun. The meat and other resources unused. 

There is some speculation that the Mammoth was hunted to extinction by indigenous peoples. There are other schools of thought as well but I suspect the pressure applied by hunting at least helped in its demise. How would a people know they had hunted an animal to extinction or near extinction? How would they even know that concept when all their life that animal was just beyond the next ridge line? In their mind that animal would still be beyond the next ridge or the next...maybe the next.

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## Sarge47

The Native Americans made their own tools & weapons, until some smart trader came along and traded guns, knives & tools for whatever they were wanting at the time.  The N.A.'s were glad to get their hands on the newest "hi-tech" stuff!  They weren't stupid.  They did what they had to do until something better came along.  My wife has two different tribes of NA blood in her.  She loves her AC in the hot summer.  While your vision sounds noble on the surface, it is highly unrealistic.  For one thing I don't want to live like they did; nor do a lot of people.  Would you force everyone to live like that?  Now you start to see the problem.  Enjoy what's left of the outdoors while it's still there, it's going fast!   :eyore:

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## alexander super-apple

Sarge, I know that the Native Americans traded for guns and other modern tools when they could. But my point is their respect for the land. We all know that the plains indians respected the buffalo over almost everything, and used everything they possibly could from it. And Rick is right about the whole ridge concept. His point is that they didn't know they were capable of killing off a species, is it not? They didn't know. And if they did know, would they have acted the same? The mammoth walked the earth a VERY long time ago, and we can agree that the natives didn't know as much then. But the plains indians DID know. Other tribes knew about the potential of man to destroy. My point is that with no knowlege, there is no responsibility. But when we know that we're killing off a species or harming the environment, it's our responsibility to make it right. I don't see anything wrong with using guns to hunt. They don't hurt anything, they just make hunting, which would happen anyway, easier. But what if that smart trader came along with a machine that could produce food, but destroyed the environment and killed plants and animals? When I talk about the Native Americans, I mean the ones who respected the land the most. My question for you is this: If those Native Americans could get their hands on such a machine... Would they use it?

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Some tribes adopted european ways rapidly and we called them the civilized tribes. In the end they did not fair any better. Population is what brings balance to nature not indian morality or modern technology. The mear presence of man deprives wild life of habitat. Those things can have affect but population is the main issue. Sarge said on one of his posts that the wilderness is disappearing fast. This is more true than any imagine.

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## Sarge47

> Sarge, I know that the Native Americans traded for guns and other modern tools when they could. But my point is their respect for the land. We all know that the plains indians respected the buffalo over almost everything, and used everything they possibly could from it. And Rick is right about the whole ridge concept. His point is that they didn't know they were capable of killing off a species, is it not? They didn't know. And if they did know, would they have acted the same? The mammoth walked the earth a VERY long time ago, and we can agree that the natives didn't know as much then. But the plains indians DID know. Other tribes knew about the potential of man to destroy. My point is that with no knowlege, there is no responsibility. But when we know that we're killing off a species or harming the environment, it's our responsibility to make it right. I don't see anything wrong with using guns to hunt. They don't hurt anything, they just make hunting, which would happen anyway, easier. But what if that smart trader came along with a machine that could produce food, but destroyed the environment and killed plants and animals? When I talk about the Native Americans, I mean the ones who respected the land the most. My question for you is this: If those Native Americans could get their hands on such a machine... Would they use it?


How can someone asnwer that?  Different tribes view things differently.  There is a misconception that , back in the wild west it was only "whites vs. Indians!"  However, the sad truth is that different tribes warred with each other constantly!  Each tribe would have wiped their NA enemies off of the face of the earth if they could have!  Your viewpoint is highly unrealistic & based on a "White-man's" flawed view of their life style.  I don't know about you, but I ain't eating dog unless I absolutely have too.  The NAs were good at using what they had, yes; but that doesn't mean that we have to "throw the baby out with the bathwater."  Today the NAs appreciate Technology just as much as we do!  They would have loved to have Gore-Tex back then, who wouldn't?  Have you ever went to an Indain "Pow-Wow?"  They're quite interesting.  The thing that you need to remember is that there are many full-blooded NAs that view ALL white men, including you, as their enemies.  Then there are those who view us as fellow human beings.  Remember, in the eyes of many NAs, it was the Whit men that stole their land & forced them to live on reservations.  Why should they give 2 farts in the wind about ho you might view their original lifestyle?  This is why I always liked the movie:  "Thunderheart" with Val Kilmer.  You weren't born yet during the 2nd "Wounded Knee" episode.  That in itself is an interesting story.   :Cool2:

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## tsitenha

alexander super-apple, you glorify the Aboriginal way to much, we weren't that all knowing, we made bad judgement calls just like the white man did.
You speak of the plains indian with such a high reverence, did you know that the Lakota were a woodland (hunter/gatherer/farmer) indian till the advent of the horse which allowed them deep into the plains and change to the plains model you refer to. They ended up relying on the buffalo to such an extent that they were not able to revert and use the agricultural heritage that they once knew, things were happening way to fast.  
Sarge is right we wared against each other a much as we were able to for land and power.
Don't make us as sage when we were and are just men.

As far as using that said machine I garantee you we would if if it could give us an edge over the others (hence the musket and such) did think twice about wiping out ours enemies or at least trying to. (humand are so hard to completely eradicate)

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## klickitat

I look at remarkable men of the past and realize that I will never measure up. The problem, was that the majority of men back then, never did either. That is why these stories were written. These guys were incredible. 

What about to day, people like Marcus Torrel?  There are always people who do extraordinary things and we all marvel.

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## alexander super-apple

> alexander super-apple, you glorify the Aboriginal way to much, we weren't that all knowing, we made bad judgement calls just like the white man did.
> You speak of the plains indian with such a high reverence, did you know that the Lakota were a woodland (hunter/gatherer/farmer) indian till the advent of the horse which allowed them deep into the plains and change to the plains model you refer to. They ended up relying on the buffalo to such an extent that they were not able to revert and use the agricultural heritage that they once knew, things were happening way to fast.  
> Sarge is right we wared against each other a much as we were able to for land and power.
> Don't make us as sage when we were and are just men.
> 
> As far as using that said machine I garantee you we would if if it could give us an edge over the others (hence the musket and such) did think twice about wiping out ours enemies or at least trying to. (humand are so hard to completely eradicate)


I really don't mean to glorify, and I know that we're all men. I know that Native Americans warred with each other, and made mistakes too. But compare what the white man has done to the earth with what Native Americans have done. Compare each race's impact on the planet. Maybe they made mistakes. Maybe they WOULD have used the machine I mentioned. I don't care if they DIDN'T respect the land, the point is, they didn't harm it nearly as much, and overall, I care about that the most. I don't mean that everyone should have the same great passion for nature, but it should be taken care of so those of us that do don't have a passion for something that's nearly gone. My point with all of this is that if we DID live like that, we wouldn't lose an area of rainforest the size of a football field every second. If we did, we wouldn't have 8% of our original old growth forests left.

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## alexander super-apple

I'm going to assume that everyone here has been in the mountains. Assuming that, I think everyone here has experienced that feeling you get there, where you feel so small and insignificant amongst their sheer magnitude and majesty. To me, it's the greatest feeling in the world. And it exemplifies the true nature of man's existence, that we're so insignificant compared to all of nature. We're just a part of it all, however much of it we have the power to destroy. Everything comes from nature, and we're just another species, one that posesses the intelligence to make things from other parts of it. To me, when we destroy nature, we're destroying the biggest and deepest part of ourselves. Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant. Maybe some of us want Gore Tex. But who are we? Haven't we all come to this forum sharing a passion for nature? Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I'm going to assume that everyone here has been in the mountains. Assuming that, I think everyone here has experienced that feeling you get there, where you feel so small and insignificant amongst their sheer magnitude and majesty. To me, it's the greatest feeling in the world. And it exemplifies the true nature of man's existence, that we're so insignificant compared to all of nature. We're just a part of it all, however much of it we have the power to destroy. Everything comes from nature, and we're just another species, one that posesses the intelligence to make things from other parts of it. To me, when we destroy nature, we're destroying the biggest and deepest part of ourselves. Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant. Maybe some of us want Gore Tex. But who are we? Haven't we all come to this forum sharing a passion for nature? Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.


 Most of us here, have a great love of nature. What some of us think, is that some of the things that you are speaking about, aren't just black and white. There are many shades of grey, in reality. While it's true that we cut down forest, we also plant and grow new forest. We may clear large areas to farm, but so many less people now die of starvation that it's hard to call that a bad thing. Along with some of the bad things have come a great deal of good things. Compare the life expectancy now, compared to 100 years ago. You say that today's man is weak, but others could argue that he is better off, living twice as long. Maybe some of that longer life comes from not having to work so dang hard, just to survive.

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## NightShade

Well put 2d2k

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## Sarge47

> I'm going to assume that everyone here has been in the mountains. Assuming that, I think everyone here has experienced that feeling you get there, where you feel so small and insignificant amongst their sheer magnitude and majesty. To me, it's the greatest feeling in the world. And it exemplifies the true nature of man's existence, that we're so insignificant compared to all of nature. We're just a part of it all, however much of it we have the power to destroy. Everything comes from nature, and we're just another species, one that posesses the intelligence to make things from other parts of it. To me, when we destroy nature, we're destroying the biggest and deepest part of ourselves. Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant. Maybe some of us want Gore Tex. But who are we? Haven't we all come to this forum sharing a passion for nature? Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.


1st off, Alexander S-A, just let me state right from the start that I'm not putting you down.  I think that for a 16 year old to have the passion that you do for our country & nature is great!  It's because I care about the young people of today that I write what I do.

Yes, I have been in the Rocky Mountains & have even camped out on Wolf Creek pass...in the summer of course.  However I beleive that Nature was created for man, not the other way around.  We should use the land properly, yes, but not as servants to it, but as concerned citizens.

Also, don't put down ANY new technological  products such as Gore-Tex.  No one is going to look upon you any different if you wear a GT coat, or a fur one made from a large mammal.  

Next, why do you keep insisting that it's the Naitive Americans who are the role-models for nature loving?   :Confused1:   Today there are many organizations that promote the safe-guarding of nature.  The Sierra Club & The Mountaineers stress "leave-no-trace" camping.  Green Peace & many other groups fight to save the planet from destroying itself.  The truth is that our huge population growth is dwarfing what used to be the Wilderness.  However I believe that Nature has it's checks & balances & that at some point things will even out.  Meanwhile I suggest that we all enjoy what we can while we can!  Oh, & great post 2D!   :Thumbup1:

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## CoyoteBC

> No, I respect that. My greatest wish is for everyone to live like the Native Americans, as I think I've stated, and if we did, we would respect the land and wouldn't need to protect nature by making state parks, or protect animals species. We would take only what we needed. The reason the American Bison is threatened is because people hunted it without respect. The plains indians would have never let the species become threatened, and had such respect for the earth that protecting it wouldn't be an issue.


Pure wishful thinking.
A perfect example is here on the west coast.
An aboriginal group would move into one of their camp sites, then exploit the resources to the extent their technology allowed.  When they could not get enough food to survive they moved to their next camp.
Some groups would return annually to a camp, sometimes every second year.  They did this because this is how long the area took to recover.
The bison was chased off cliffs and killed in large numbers by aboriginal groups.
Once again it was technology more then anything that limited the ability of early man to fully exploit nature.
The desire to eliminate the bison, was a desire to remove the food source from the plains Indian.  It was a form of warfare

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## CoyoteBC

> I really don't mean to glorify, and I know that we're all men. I know that Native Americans warred with each other, and made mistakes too. But compare what the white man has done to the earth with what Native Americans have done. Compare each race's impact on the planet. Maybe they made mistakes. Maybe they WOULD have used the machine I mentioned. I don't care if they DIDN'T respect the land, the point is, they didn't harm it nearly as much, and overall, I care about that the most. I don't mean that everyone should have the same great passion for nature, but it should be taken care of so those of us that do don't have a passion for something that's nearly gone. My point with all of this is that if we DID live like that, we wouldn't lose an area of rainforest the size of a football field every second. If we did, we wouldn't have 8% of our original old growth forests left.


If we had been 50 to 100 years later in coming to North America it is likely that the Iroquois would have carved out a huge empire.
My Celtic ancestors had similar ideas and mythologies as other neolithic people.
All peoples lived pretty much the same way with similar mythologies until quite recently.

If you want to look at a modern "real man" google a young man who died 30 years ago called Terry Fox, or another called Rick Hansen.

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## rwc1969

> .... Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant.... Maybe I'm naive. But I think you all know what I mean.


Consider the audience. You could talk this stuff till your blue in the face, and even provide good supporting materials for your argument. But, if you're audience isn't wanting to hear what you are saying it's a waste of effort.

Other people have provided "their" point of view in this thread and provided zero supporting material to back it up, yet it is taken as truth by some.

Same with the natural remedy thread about garlic or whatever. People here are going to stick to their point of view regardless of what you say or prove otherwise.

That's why I don't get involved in these kind of threads here anymore. It's a waste of effort!

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## shooter_250

complacency

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## Sarge47

> That's why I don't get involved in these kind of threads here anymore. It's a waste of effort!


Really???????   :Confused1:

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## Sarge47

> ...Maybe my talk of Native Americans is foolish and ignorant...


Alexander dude, have you ever been to a Native American Pow-Wow?  They're a real eye-opener.  My wife has both Cherokee & Crow in her DNA, so I took her to a couple of these out in Colorado.  a small group of NA women came up to me & asked us if we were NA's, though they used the term:  "Indians."  I told them about my wife & explained that I'm Irish-German with a Polish last name that I got from my foster father.  I told them that my maternal Grandmother's maiden name was Calhoun, just like Vice President Calhoun who sent Custer in to solve the Indian problem.  I added that it was very possible that while my wife's people were making treaties my people were breaking them!  They thought that was very funny & told me they approved of my honesty.  Then they told me something I never forgot.  They pointed to an obvious "non-indian" woman who was trying to pass herself off as an NA.   :Red Indian: 

"There are some here," they said, "who try to pretend that they are us, and they are not!  We earned the right to our heritage and do not want that stolen by white people like they stole our land.  You are welcome because you are honest!"

"Super-Apple," be yourself, not Chris McC., not an Indian, be you & stand up for what you believe, but keep it within yourself.  Only share it with others that share your values!  Don't waste your time by trying to make the world believe that you are right & that they are wrong!   :Brickwall:    You cannot change the world, many have tried.  They all failed.  You set the example by your words & by your actions, but don't be a fraud!  I can tell from reading your posts that you're better than that!   I highly respect your values, as do many on here, but don't forget that you are here to learn, not to teach!   BTW, I would suggest you read the book,  "The Frontiersmen" by Allen Eckert, I believe that you would enjoy it.  It's not a novel but a true narrative written in the form of a novel.   :Cool2:

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## CoyoteBC

> Consider the audience. You could talk this stuff till your blue in the face, and even provide good supporting materials for your argument. But, if you're audience isn't wanting to hear what you are saying it's a waste of effort.
> 
> Other people have provided "their" point of view in this thread and provided zero supporting material to back it up, yet it is taken as truth by some.
> 
> Same with the natural remedy thread about garlic or whatever. People here are going to stick to their point of view regardless of what you say or prove otherwise.
> 
> That's why I don't get involved in these kind of threads here anymore. It's a waste of effort!


If that was directed at me what proof would you like?

A source to information on the extinction of the St. Lawrence Iroquois by the Iroquois proper.  Or perhaps other information on the Iroquois confederacy?

You could google Head smashed in buffalo jump for an example of this type of hunting technique.

If it wasn't directed at me then I apologize

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## rwc1969

No it wasn't directed at you CoyoteBC, and that's the exact reason I don't get involved in these kinda threads anymore.

I'm not here to argue, but to learn and share ideas about real world stuff.

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## CoyoteBC

> No it wasn't directed at you CoyoteBC, and that's the exact reason I don't get involved in these kinda threads anymore.
> 
> I'm not here to argue, but to learn and share ideas about real world stuff.


Wasn't arguing just giving some sources.
I asked you a direct question to avoid confusion to which you answered.
Now there is no confusion or reason to argue.
On the internet sometimes the only way to be sure what someone means is to ask directly.

No harm no foul

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## CoyoteBC

> No, I respect that. My greatest wish is for everyone to live like the Native Americans, as I think I've stated, and if we did, we would respect the land and wouldn't need to protect nature by making state parks, or protect animals species. We would take only what we needed. The reason the American Bison is threatened is because people hunted it without respect. The plains indians would have never let the species become threatened, and had such respect for the earth that protecting it wouldn't be an issue.


I realize that my other posts may have seemed as if I was coming down on you.
That is not my intent.
We westerners (European and New World) tend to romanticize other cultures and idealize them in a way that did not exist.  We also tend to knock our own culture.

Spend time with almost any hunter (regardless of religion, race, colour or creed) and you will find someone who respects nature.
The same can be true for most "outdoors type" people, even the groups that despise me because I am a hunter (like bear watch), I will admit that they respect nature.  I believe they don't understand nature and mans role in it. I may despise them right back, but I acknowledge that they think they are doing right.

Look at groups such as Ducks Unlimited and you will find those that respect nature.
Most Scouts I've met have that same respect

Look to other cultures and take the ideals that you find valuable, but also look at your own culture to find ideals you believe in.

I love the outdoors in part because my father showed me the way.
My daughters love the outdoors in part because of what my wife and I showed them.

Take what you want from the teachings of  others and then make your own philosophy.

Sometimes a grumpy old guy like me forgets what it was like to be 16.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

A real man would boldly speak his truth and only last a couple of posts on any forum before being banned.

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## crashdive123

A real man would be able to convey his message in such a manner that it would be received by others in a way in which it would have a positive impact.  Anybody fool can shout from the mountain tops.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

The truth is seldom welcome no matter how it is said.

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## DOGMAN

As CoyoteBC says, its a misconception, that all Indians made the most of the resources all the time....Buffalo Jumps are definetly an example of that.  In college, i worked on a couple of different Archaeology digs of Buffalo jumps in Montana, and we were amazed at what we'd find.

There would be evidence (cut marks on bones) of animals that were massively utilized, and then others that only had a couple of marks on them...and under them sometimes, buffalo that not even been touced!  So, basically the theory there was "Take what you need, and leave the rest".  

I view Indians, just like I do every other people- they will do whatever it takes to survive.  All of the tribes were quick to incorporate every tool/concept that made their lives easier.  When the Spanish brought the horse over- no Indians turned their backs on it and said- "NO, we are traditionalist and only travel by foot and dog travois!"....no Indians, said "No, we don't want your steel bladed knives- we are a stone tool people!". 

 Also, about Gore-tex...they would've embraced it in a second....look at the early photos of Indian tribes- they are wearing a mix of traditional stuff, and modern (for the  time) wool coats and shirts.

All that said, I do really admire traditional Indian ways, and I really admire how industrious, tough, and in-tune with Nature their traditional cultures were. But, I don't idolize them, and hold them falsley in my mind with mythological reverence . THey too were just people- just like Chris McCandless, just like you, and just like Rick.

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## trax

Hold it there pal--just like Rick? I think you may have gone a little too far with that assertion. I mean come on, who could possilby be just like Rick? 

(I type this with absolute certainty that Rick is going to view it only in the most positive of lights)

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## abe

Real Men vs Modern Wimps. Every father has been saying " I don't want my children to go through what I had to go through", for decades and centuries. Its finally here, a nation full of spoiled rotten brats. A lady down the road offered a boy $50 to cut and weed wack her lawn, the boy said " if I want 50 bucks all I have to do is ask my mom". This is just one of millions of examples why our country is fizzling down the tubes.

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## DOGMAN

well said Abe!  that about sums it all up......

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## letslearntogether47

"Really, what happened in the last 50 to 80 years to men."

Progress..... :Whistling: 
I've read and re-read the beginning of this thread a few times.And all I can figure out is that if you don't go trecking through Alaska in Jan. with minimal gear and alone you're a"wimp".Interesting thought,but,no thanks.
I would like to see how this guys biography ended.
And he became grizzly poop. :Blink:

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## Rick

> A lady down the road offered a boy $50 to cut and weed wack her lawn,  the boy said " if I want 50 bucks all I have to do is ask my mom". This  is just one of millions of examples why our country is fizzling down the  tubes.


Sounds more like what could be said about one kid and his parents rather than a whole generation. If you want to see why our country is fizzling down the tubes take a look at the young men and women serving in the sand box. Take a look at the young men and women that are working in our nation's ERs and staffing the ambulance that take people there. Take a look at the cops, firemen and other first responders that are just stepping into the role or the first year educators. 

I watched young men and women all summer long coach and umpire little girls softball. I saw a lot of really young men and women at the 4H fair this summer. I see all kinds of kids at church on Sunday. 

If fizzle down the tubes is the latest term that means something good then I think our country is fizzling along pretty well 'cause personally, I don't think there's a thing wrong with our kids today.

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## letslearntogether47

> Sounds more like what could be said about one kid and his parents rather than a whole generation. If you want to see why our country is fizzling down the tubes take a look at the young men and women serving in the sand box. Take a look at the young men and women that are working in our nation's ERs and staffing the ambulance that take people there. Take a look at the cops, firemen and other first responders that are just stepping into the role or the first year educators. 
> 
> I watched young men and women all summer long coach and umpire little girls softball. I saw a lot of really young men and women at the 4H fair this summer. I see all kinds of kids at church on Sunday. 
> 
> If fizzle down the tubes is the latest term that means something good then I think our country is fizzling along pretty well 'cause personally, I don't think there's a thing wrong with our kids today.


Well said,Rick.
Simply putting everyone in one basket with a label is wrong.
When it comes to kids,it's up to US to set the example.

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## DOGMAN

I am obviously looking through different glasses than you two...Sure, there are some decent younger people out there.  But far too few.  So, many people want to be famous- but don't want to work and become skilled at something that may bring them notoriety. They want instant gratification and celebrity....reality tv types.  People would rather watch life on TV than live their own.

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## rwc1969

I don't think it's the kids, but the parents and the general mentality of people these days.

Today kids get out of the service and the first thing they do is sign up for disability and they can continue to work a regular job. Something is wrong with that picture. Either you are disabled or you are not.

Too many people and businesses/ organizations have learned how to ride the system for all it's worth and the system is failing because of it.

It's too bad really and all the hero cops and firefighters/ emt's etc. aren't doing a thing to fix it. In fact they nurture it. Because many of them are riding the system too.

You can't blame just one group, it's everyone's fault, young, old, rich, poor, powerful, weak, etc, etc..

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## tsitenha

I think we just react to what we see then generalise onit. We see a kid doing a mindless act and it stays with us,, they are all bad [B]OR(B] 
A pin cushioned, tattooed, greasy haired, leather jacketed, "punk" sharing his lunch at work just because.... the guy is waiting to get paid so he can eat...
Judge the deed and actions not the package, age or the times
I have been pleasently surprized usually

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## CoyoteBC

My daughters are 20 and 21 and I have to say that I think most of their friends are good kids.
Part of my job as a Corporate Safety Officer is training.
During the summer we hire students to work in our factory and distribution center.
There are some lazy kids and some that think this work is beneath them, however I find those ones are in the minority.

As I tell my kids
The older I get
The better I use to be

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## rwc1969

It is a minority, a growing one. And, if we don't see it in our neck of the woods or if we turn a blind eye to it, it will continue to grow and our country will continue to weaken because of it. Just because things are peachy in your neighborhood doesn't mean they are peachy all over. Maybe you are the minority. You should heed the warnings of your fellow Americans and consider the possibilities before quickly brushing it off as "a minority" or you may find yourself the minority and no one will listen to you. The path of least resistance runs deep into the countryside clearing brambles and woodlots to make more trails as it goes, one by one they fall. Next thing you know there is no resistance, just a bunch of sheep grazing in the opened fields waiting for slaughter.

I have nothing against free speech, media, capitalism as a whole, but checks and balances need to be made to ensure these aren't abused and to ensure that the freedoms we have aren't undermining our strength as a nation. National media, etc., is a great tool unless it's sole purpose is to spew forth corporate and government propaganda. I feel the media, including tv shows, newspapers, etc. needs a huge makeover and is a large part of the reason men aren't men anymore and a reason people act the way they do these days. There's just way too many hidden agendas, subliminal messages, and what have you.

Free speech is arguably a thing of the past, but, if we believe it still exists we need to ensure that those freedoms aren't undermining national security and such. We need to stand up and protect the free speech of others even if it doesn't agree with us. A paradigm, in a free country you can't do one without impeding the other.

I would have nothing against corporations if they supported the system. Historically, and lately, they are becoming just another dependant upon it, and they are not giving back what we put in. They are what I call a "fair weather friend", a fair weather friend that never dies or goes away, unless they foolishly encumber too much debt, or the grass is greener somewhere else, like China or Mexico. Then they continue to suckle off our teet while promoting the interest of other nations, interests which are at work to destroy us. If they do die, we as the taxpayers, investors, and consumers pick up the bill for their losses, while the ones that caused their demise, being virtually free of responsibility, move on and continue the same thing all over again under a different name or for a different corporation.

Perhaps there never were any "real men" to begin with, only a naive and accepting populus that yearned for something to believe in and look up to that was somehow better than their own works and beliefs. I look up to myself and believe in God and no other, the same was true for my forefathers. We didn't need someone else's approval, we just did and still do what we must to survive, live and be right under God.

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## Rick

I remember when I was a kid. Everyone said I wouldn't amount to much and look at me. I made it all the way to Administrator. I'll bet they never thought I'd make this kind of money modding a forum either.

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## Ken

> I remember when I was a kid. Everyone said I wouldn't amount to much and look at me. I made it all the way to Administrator. I'll bet they never thought I'd make this kind of money modding a forum either.


That much, huh?  And to think that I've asked Chris to give you and Crash and Sarge a 20% raise.   :Lol:

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## Rick

You'd be surprised how many 20% increases we've received. That Chris is a generous man. I probably shouldn't say this but that's part of the reason he's had to increase your logon fees.

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## CoyoteBC

> It is a minority, a growing one.  You should heed the warnings of your fellow Americans


If this was directed at my last post, you are in error.
I have very little knowledge about what is happening in the USA.
I am not American

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## rwc1969

once again,




> No it wasn't directed at you CoyoteBC, and that's the exact reason I don't get involved in these kinda threads anymore.
> 
> I'm not here to argue, but to learn and share ideas about real world stuff.


 
 :Confused: 


Not sure why you think all my posts are directed at you BC, especially ones that are directed at "americans". Although, I feel it is something everyone should consider. We all live in the same fishbowl which gets smaller every day. 




I post my opinions and walk away if you want to argue amongst yourselves be my guest.


 :toomany:

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## rwc1969

Actually BC, I see how you could think that now as you said minority in your post, but it wasn't directed specifically at you. A few here in this thread, and other threads on this forum have recently made generalizations and implications of "minority". That's what that part of my post was referring to.

One bad apple in a whole bunch is a minority, but that one bad apple will ruin the whole bunch nonetheless. That's my point. Also, people tend to think if bad things aren't happening in their neighborhood as Rick stated, or country, then it must be a minority issue, and don't concern themselves with it. That is a mistake as history has proved time and time again.

People these days have a tendency to overlook problems until they are out of control.

Just as with modern medicine we treat the symptom, but don't bother to address the root cause.

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## Rick

Ouch! I certainly got singled out on that one. You might go back and re-read my post. There was no mention made of my neighborhood. Folks serving in the sand box and elsewhere certainly didn't all come from my neighborhood. But citing a single example of bad conduct then painting everyone with the same brush is over generalization. If you think today's kids are somehow different or worse than your generation or any generation before them then that's perfectly fine. Every generation seems to think that kids are taking the country to heck in a hand basket but the country remains strong through each successive generation. So I'm hard pressed to think ill of today's kids based on the actions of the "minority". 

If anyone wants to look at meaningful numbers then research graduation rates, secondary education rates and enlistment rates within the military and remember that the military has increased their standards from my generation.

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## rwc1969

> ... I see all kinds of kids at church on Sunday. 
> 
> ....


I think you edited your post Rick, but this isn't reffering to your neighborhood? Or do you go to church out of state. LOL!

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## Rick

Actually, I didn't and wouldn't do that. If I edit a post and make a material difference in it I always so note it.

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## CoyoteBC

> Actually BC, I see how you could think that now as you said minority in your post, but it wasn't directed specifically at you. A few here in this thread, and other threads on this forum have recently made generalizations and implications of "minority". That's what that part of my post was referring to.
> 
> One bad apple in a whole bunch is a minority, but that one bad apple will ruin the whole bunch nonetheless. That's my point. Also, people tend to think if bad things aren't happening in their neighborhood as Rick stated, or country, then it must be a minority issue, and don't concern themselves with it. That is a mistake as history has proved time and time again.
> 
> People these days have a tendency to overlook problems until they are out of control.
> 
> Just as with modern medicine we treat the symptom, but don't bother to address the root cause.


You are right it was your use of minority in the post right after my use that had me wondering.

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## rwc1969

I was just kidding bout the edited part Rick, but you did imply "your neighborhood" when you made the statements you did make. LOL!

Thanks BC! Not looking to ruffle feathers just trying to understand and perhaps help others understand why the world is the way it is and give some ideas for positive change.

It all starts at home in the mirror and goes out from there to your family, neighbors, city, county, state, etc. If we work hard at keeping things right in our neck of the woods and don't turn a blind eye to the pleas of others the world would be a much better place.

But, simply saying that things are fine where I live so who cares what goes on elsewhere is a huge mistake IMO, as that's how we got here in the first place. That's how some of the most evil empires came to exist and grow in power. We need to make sure we got things squared away on our end first, but, we also need to pay attention to what's going on around us, even if it's not directly affecting us at the moment.

That's what real men and women do!

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## CoyoteBC

I have always taught my daughters (and foster kids) it is the duty of the strong to help the weak.
And even the weak will at times be stronger then the strong.
The worse beating I ever took in my life was caused because I couldn't watch 10 armed men (knives and clubs) beat on a guy.  In the end we both walked away so it wasn't a big deal

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## Sourdough

Bump.....Bump For JPGreco

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## JPGreco

Thanks, I think this should answer my question quite well when I read through it later.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

If courage in exploration is the measure of a "Man" how can you possibly top strapping yourself in a hydrogen rocket and being shot to the moon at 17,000 miles an hour?

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## Rick

Catching the rocket. Just sayin'....That would sort of top it.....I think.

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## NCO

Dropping my two flies in this soup...

I can't honestly say that I read every post on this thread, or even checked every page, but the once I did got me thinking.
Some of you might know that I'm one of the younger members here, only 23 years old. And from a foreign country and culture to rest of you.
On the first page there is a mention about the lack of "rite of passage" for men in USA. I thought of this a bit more and came to a conclusion that this is indeed a significant thing.
Here, in Finland, we do have a rite of passage. It is the legally mandatory army service for the whole male population.(these days it's not that mandatory, but mandatory on paper at least) We say that the military turns boys in to men(_and men in to single men..._), when I see guys on a leave with their uniforms on I pick on them and buy them a beer. That is what was done previously to me, and generations before me. After a man has done his service with honor, we certainly see them in a different light, and they feel it in themselves too. There is a culture to it that effects every aspect of our society. When couple of Brittish men, strangers, might chat about the "bloody weather", we chat about our army times... It creates a common bond to all men through out the society.

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## LongHuntre

Well put, I agree as i am a the son of a real man a man who was born in 1922 and survived the Depression and was a  W.W. 2 vet. who served overseas in theater  and who came home from the war and worked in the Oilfield his entire life on Cable Tool Rigs and Pulling Units doing back breaking work heating and pounding drill bits in a fire and roughnecking casing and tubing all outdoors in all kinds of weather working in the oil patch his entire life, a man who broke his ankle in a fall off an icy oil tank ladder and then managed to drive home , shave, change clothes and drive himself to the E.R. ............ My Dad was 49 when i was born in 1971 I never heard him complain and never knew him to be sick until he was older and diabetes and heart problems sidelined him a bit but he still mowed the yard, planted a garden, cut wood, etc... Yes my Dad was a real Mans Man but me....well i am not even 1/4 of the man my old man was and the reason is because i never had to endure the sacrifices and hardships that my Father went through, so therefore I am 3/4 less the Man that i am glad my Dad was for me to look up to because i would not have traded my Dad for anyone else in the world.....I am a modern day certified "wussy" compared to the old timers of days gone by !!!

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## JPGreco

I've read the first 10 posts of this thread and it is spot on.

From one of my absolute favorite books on the subject:

'Society at large can't make up its mind about men.  Having spent the last thirty years redefining masculinity into something more sensitive, safe, manageable and, well, feminine, it now berates men for not being men.  Boys will be boys, they sigh.  As though if a man were to truly grow up he would forsake wilderness and wanderlust and settle down, be at home forever in Aunt Polly's parlor.  "Where are all the _real_ men?" is regular far for talk shows and new books.  _You asked them to be women_, I want to say.  The result is a gender confusion never experienced at such a wide level in the history of the world.  How can a man know he is one when his highest aim is minding his manners?'
~Wild at Heart~ By John Eldredge

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## BENESSE

Sounds nice but...NEWS FLASH!... the definition has expanded into the 21st century.
Ask Cowboysurvival (a single dad raising a little girl) what a real man is. Just for starters.
Let's get real here and stop fantasizing.

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## JPGreco

I think I can throw a thought into this thread now after reading it.  The question what happened to men is valid, but I think the better question from reading through is what happened to the SPIRIT and the HEART of man.  100 years ago things were tough because that was life.  I won't begin to compare that lifestyle to today's.

The spirit and heart of man has been tamed over time.  It starts when most of us are little boys.  Dad is either working all the time or not even in the picture, which is problem number 1.  There is nobody to be a warrior with, to fight with, somebody to encourage you to jump off or climb whatever you are going after.  We are tamed and told not to do these dangerous things for whatever reason or maybe no other reason than "i say so".  This goes on through most of our youth and as posted in this thread, when we are dangerous, we are severely punished (not to go into the problems specifically).  Then we are expected to be men?  Pretty difficult.  Thats where it starts.

Then as men, something is missing in our hearts.  Some men try to fill that with infidelity or any number of things that takes him away from his family, which propogates the cycle.  The majority of these things that are tried fail to fill that void.


What is needed then?  Adventure is one of those things and I think some people missed this point in this thread.  Adventure isn't going where nobody has gone before.  For some it is, but how many people have that opportunity?  No, the adventure that most men need is simply going where they have not been.  To test themselves against nobody but themselves.  An element of danger is needed as well.  I'm not talking going to vegas or on a relaxing vacation and staying in a hotel.  I'm talking a challenge.  A lot of the new people who chime in saying I'm going go live in the woods for months with nothing but a knife are on the right track, just misguided.  Thats too extreme for most.  But a week can do it.  Hell, even a few days can do it.  It's what the heart and spirit want.  An adventure.

It was posted earlier by SD if this is a youth issue only.  Clearly by my post I believe its several generations deep.  Currently up to three generations.  I'm about to turn 30.  I can see the longing in the eye's of a lot of my elder's.  I know I have it.  And I know the majority of the youth is misguided.  I know I long deeply for an adventure, as well as the other things I've come to learn that I need.

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## JPGreco

> Sounds nice but...NEWS FLASH!... the definition has expanded into the 21st century.
> Ask Cowboysurvival (a single dad raising a little girl) what a real man is. Just for starters.
> Let's get real here and stop fantasizing.



Nothing in that post would put him down and I whole heartedly applaud single parents for raising their children.

As for the demasculinization of men, I've seen in it in many of the boys I've coached.

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## 1stimestar

Yes that is a big part of it, not having a right of passage.  But it does not even have to be a national thing.  It could be a family thing, such as first kill for a hunting family.

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## BENESSE

> Here, in Finland, we do have a rite of passage. It is the legally mandatory army service for the whole male population.(these days it's not that mandatory, but mandatory on paper at least) We say that the military turns boys in to men(_and men in to single men..._) After a man has done his service with honor, we certainly see them in a different light, and they feel it in themselves too. It creates a common bond to all men through out the society.


I have _always_ believed that a piece-time mandatory draft (not just for men!) would be beneficial on so many levels. It would teach timeless valuable skills, instill discipline, toughen young people up and strengthen the love & bond to country. (The added benefit would be that the whole approach to owning and properly handling guns would radically change and diffuse the present polarization)

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## Rick

I think the whole thing is pretty silly. People are people. The only reason men did the things they did is because they had to. What about all the men in 1920 that worked in the cities as accountants or police and fire or doctors or lawyers, etc. ad infinitum. We're taking a single segment of society and applying to every man and that just isn't applicable. 

As for men being home with their boys. They certainly weren't during WWI. Many were off trying to find jobs during the depression or working for the CCC. Same during the dustbowl years and during WWII. My brother was 18 months old when dad returned from the service. Those are formative years that stay with you throughout your life. 

I don't see a nickles worth of difference between men of yesteryear and men of today. The men of yesteryear built the roads and strung the wires that pulled this country together and they are still doing it today sweating the same sweat and bleeding the same blood.

We're in love with an ideal not a real person and that's probably from all the advertising we've been subjected to.

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## BENESSE

.  .  .  +1 Rick.

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## randyt

+2 Rick

I was chatting with a buddy the other day about world war two. I wondered if the young men and women of today would be as capable. I think if push came to shove, they would step up and surprise the world.

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## crashdive123

I think that if you look at the young men and women of today's military that they are making the WWII vets proud.  IMO they are every bit as capable.  They all volunteered knowing the risks.  They darn sure make me proud.

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## Pal334

I can say that I have served in combat situations in several eras (Vietnam through Iraq) and the young men and women  serve with a courage and selflessness that would and does make the "Greatest Generation"proud. I think that has been one constant in our countries history, when needed our young people are capable and more than willing to step up and be counted. So the  "Real Men vs Modern WIMP men" discussion rings hollow with me.  And I am especially proud of how our female service members on the whole are serving courageously and (at least in my experience) do not ask for any concessions for their service.

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## BENESSE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wtZaJa0IgM

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## randyt

Absolutely,  my hats off to our armed services, they're awesome.  

If I understand correctly, 10 million were drafted into active duty during world war two.  Could we come up with 10 million in these times? Young folks seem to have different values these days but I still think they would rise to the challenge.

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## FVR

Good book, Making the Corps.  It explains how the USMC has evolved, how it had to just to keep up with the technology.

As far as being a Real Man, I'm a real man.  I do what has to be done for my family.  If that means shoveling crap in a ditch or sitting behind a desk, I will do it.  Granite, I'm a little hard on the kids, sometimes the Marine comes out.  But I think they've seen my watery eyes at sad movies.  I tell them, "I got something in my eyes, no, no, allergies, just pass the damn tissues."

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## Winter

> Joseph Campbell wrote extensively, about mythology, and the lack of any rite-of-passage for modern males.


That is the reason I joined the service. It didn't feel right to be considered a man and not have a stepping stone under foot.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

My daughter left her mountain bike at my house. 

Could I be a real man and ride a girls bicycle? 

What if I paint it OD green?

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## Camp10

> My daughter left her mountain bike at my house. 
> 
> Could I be a real man and ride a girls bicycle? 
> 
> What if I paint it OD green?


Nah, a real man would leave it pink....get pics!  Lol!

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## BENESSE

> My daughter left her mountain bike at my house. 
> 
> Could I be a real man and ride a girls bicycle? 
> 
> What if I paint it OD green?


The bears don't care what color it is.

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## Rick

Wait a minute......AS riding a girls bike?........Hmmmm.......pics or it didn't happen.

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## ChudaJohn

I wonder, was it a "Mans Man" or a Feminine Man who made it possible to be on the Internet, to have a computer, a car, groceries, clothes and so on? Anyone get my point?

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## BENESSE

> I wonder, was it a "Mans Man" or a Feminine Man who made it possible to be on the Internet, to have a computer, a car, groceries, clothes and so on? Anyone get my point?


_I_ get your point Chuda, but some men don't like to acknowledge that. They don't understand that the definition of what a "real" man is, evolved the way everything else in life did. The core values will never change and those have never been in dispute. The superficial stuff has.

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## roxanwright

You guy's are doing great....so here is a side question, and I hope I don't derail the conversation. But without saying it is you, is this a youth issue only..?? or are there a fair amount of middle aged or older men without basic outdoorsman skills, that feel a void.???

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## Seniorman

"Real Men As Opposed To Modern Wimps"

*The Real Man Test* 

*Note: All "real men" answer "C" to all of these questions.  Knowing this, women will have come far in understanding men and enriching their own lives if they carefully review the "C" answer. 

1. Alien beings from a highly advanced society visit the Earth, and you are the first human they encounter. As a token of intergalactic friendship, they present you with a small but incredibly sophisticated device that is capable of curing all disease, providing an infinite supply of clean energy, wiping out hunger and poverty, and permanently eliminating oppression and violence all over the entire Earth.   You decide to: 

A. Present it to the President of the United States. 
B. Present it to the Secretary General of the United Nations. 
C. Take it apart. 

2. As you grow older, what lost quality of your youthful life do you miss the most? 

A. Innocence. 
B. Idealism.
C. Cherry bombs. 


3. When is it okay to kiss another male? 

A. When you wish to display simple and pure affection without regard for narrow-minded social conventions. 
B. When he is the Pope. (Not on the lips.) 
C. When he is your brother and you are Al Pacino and this is the only really sportsmanlike way to let him know that, for business reasons, you have to have him killed. 

4. In your opinion, the ideal pet is: 

A. A cat.
B. A dog. 
C. A dog that eats cats. 

5. You have been seeing a woman for several years. She's attractive and intelligent, and you always enjoy being with her. One leisurely Sunday afternoon the two of you are taking it easy. You're watching a football game; she's reading the papers when she suddenly, out of the clear blue sky, tells you that she thinks she really loves you, but, she can no longer bear the uncertainty of not knowing where your relationship is going. She says she's not asking whether you want to get married; only whether you believe that you have some kind of future together. What do you say? 

A. That you sincerely believe the two of you do have a future, but you don't want to rush it. 
B. That although you also have strong feelings for her, you cannot honestly say that you'll be ready anytime soon to make a lasting commitment, and you don't want to hurt her by holding out false hope. 
C. That you cannot believe the Vikings called a draw play on third and seventeen.


6. Okay, so you have decided that you truly love a woman and you want to spend the rest of your life with her, sharing the joys and the sorrows the world has to offer, come what may. How do you tell her? 

A. You take her to a nice restaurant and tell her after dinner. 
B. You take her for a walk on a moonlit beach, and you say her name, and when she turns to you, with the sea breeze blowing through her hair and the stars in her eyes, you tell her.
C. Tell her what?


7. One weekday morning your wife wakes up feeling ill and asks you to get your three children ready for school. Your first question to her is: 

A. "Do they need to eat or anything? 
B. "They're in school already?"
C. "There are three of them?" 


8. When is it okay to throw away a set of veteran underwear? 

A. When it has turned the color of a dead whale and developed new holes so large that you're not sure which ones were originally intended for your legs. 
B. When it is down to eight loosely connected underwear molecules and has to be handled with tweezers. 
C. It is never okay to throw away veteran underwear. A real man checks the garbage regularly in case somebody (and we are not naming names, but this would be his wife) is quietly trying to discard his underwear. 


9. What is the human race's single greatest achievement? 

A. Democracy. 
B. Religion. 
C. Colts Govt. Model .45 ACP.*

 :Thumbup: 

S.M.

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## Spooky Ol' Joe

> Nothing is to be gained by insulting one on his type of gear.


Amen. That goes for all of us.

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## Spooky Ol' Joe

Seniorman,

For the last 40 years I have been married to a woman, now 64-years-old and o-so-liberal, who could probably eat your lunch every day of the week, and ask for seconds each and every time.

In other words, don't assume that 'liberal' means 'weak'....

Happy Days,

Spooky Ol' Joe

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## Spooky Ol' Joe

> Seniorman,
> 
> For the last 40 years I have been married to a woman, now 64-years-old and o-so-liberal, who could probably eat your lunch every day of the week, and ask for seconds each and every time.


Recognize the cultural differences here. I chose her, and she chose me, because of our determination to ensure the long-term survival of our species (in this case, Native American).  She is my PARTNER, not my subordinate. She has successfully defended my back on more than on occasion.

Happy days,

Spooky Ol' Joe

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## Seniorman

> Seniorman,
> 
> For the last 40 years I have been married to a woman, now 64-years-old and o-so-liberal, who could probably eat your lunch every day of the week, and ask for seconds each and every time.
> 
> In other words, don't assume that 'liberal' means 'weak'....
> 
> Happy Days,
> 
> Spooky Ol' Joe




Uhhhhh, huh??   :Lol: 

S.M.

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