# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  Knives - modern vs traditional

## akumabito

Hi everyone, I'm new here and I'm just curious to people's opinions on modern versus traditional knives. 

Personally I'd like to think that for example a Finnish puukko is pretty much ideal - they haven't changed much in ages, and that's probably for a good reason, right? Plus they have been designed and used in serious outdoor conditions for just as long so any 'bugs' should have been out of the design by now. I guess they can safely be labeled 'tried and tested'.

On the other hand there are all these new knife designs like, for instance, the SOG Seal Pup and many others, which were designed after a serious amount of research on knife use. They could very well be more advanced - synthetic sheaths instead of leather, modern corrosion proofing, etc.. 

What do you guys think? Are the new products superior over the classics in every single way imaginable? Or have the classic designs become classic for a darn good reason? In the end, does it just boil down to personal preference, or are there real good reasons to pick one over the other? 

Just curious  :Smile:

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## Rick

I think it's another knife thread. Try the search feature. There must be 1001 knife threads on the "best" knife out there. There's also a sticky on the best knife.

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## akumabito

I'm not looking for the 'best knife'.  :Wink: 

I'm just interested in people's thoughts on this particular criterion - the traditional side versus the high-tech angle.

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## crashdive123

I honestly don't have a preference.  I've got quite a few.  What I take out into the woods are what I guess would be called modern.  My criteria is that it has to be reliable.

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## warman87

well considering that different areas have different traditional knives and those knives usually have specific purposes in my opinion tradition can be the best choice cuz they benn honed to preform at there spicific task
but if you want a jack-of-all-trades blade go modern better steel also special features like dive knives have ect...my2c

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## Ole WV Coot

Best to check your knife laws. They get a little strange on that side of the pond.

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## FVR

What do I think?  Think many here put too much emphasis on knives.  But, since you asked.

A knife is a knife is a knife in my book.  I like my old knives made from files because they can be used as a striker when I have flint.  But they are a might bit brittle, but then it's just a knife.

What many fail to think about, is that knife design is used to attract buyers.  Is that Tom Brown any better than a Kabar, or a short machette, or a Buck, or a Puma, or Gerber, or any knife for that matter.  No.  It's a tool that is designed to be used up.


I don't think any one knife is better than another in a survival situation, a freak'n cut piece of bamboo will work.

Knife selection is personal pref. unless you are buying a specific knife like a throwing knife, a saw knife, a fillete knife, you get the pic.

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## Rick

Thank you, Frank! Now about those $400 knives....

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## FVR

LOL............$400.00 knife.

Why in the heck do you think I make my own bows, arrows, and gear. 

I like to do it on the cheap.  Make it, trade it, and spend as least amount as possible.  

400 bucks, wow, you know what you can do with that?  That is a years worth of clothes, including shoes for my kids, it's a new set of 4 tires for the minivan, I can go on....

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## Rick

See ya'll. Frank knows. That's why I carry a $15.00 knive.

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## klkak

I have found a few very good knives that cost almost nothing. All my expensive knives are excellent. My Green River knife is a very good knife at $14. My Eagle River Knives Bowie is an excellent knife at $200. My K-Bar D-2 extreme is the toughest knife I've ever owned. I don't remember how much I paid for it but it wasn't cheap. My advice to you is buy a knife and use it. If you don't like it, buy something else and use it.

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## Gray Wolf

$400?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Do I hear $700.00 (plus S & H) for Bears knife????

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## Gray Wolf

> Personally I'd like to think that for example a Finnish puukko is pretty much ideal - they haven't changed much in ages, and that's probably for a good reason, right? Plus they have been designed and used in serious outdoor conditions for just as long so any 'bugs' should have been out of the design by now. I guess they can safely be labeled 'tried and tested'.


Personally I wouldn't bet my life on any knife that didn't have a *full tang*, and the Lappland Puukko, Aito Puukko, Kauhavalainen Puukko, *DON'T!*

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## Beo

I'd like to stick Bear with his knife. 
I prefer an old fashioned file knife with an antler handle. As FVR said its a tool, most of the ones I got that were expensive were presents or gifts and ended up getting traded or sold. Buying a good knife blank for about $20 or $30 bucks and put a wood handle or antler handle on it and I'm good, or easy sale to someone. 
In the end a knife is a tool, I will spend money on them but those are collectors from bygone days. Of course I still use them though.

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## Bibow

i say traditional designs theyv'e been tested the best all you need is a normal knife you don't a knife designed by/for the SEALS to clean a deer

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## Ole WV Coot

I probably have said before I am partial to a Nessmuk style blade. An Old Hickory skinner about $8 can be modified. No way will I pay for a custom knife like I want so I make my own. I did a repair job on cutting out a piece of pine at the bottom of a double door, replacing it with seasoned treated. I used one I made, plus a hammer on the spine. When I finished my repair job a couple of minutes on a stone and had a shaving edge back. That's a traditional design and it works for me. If I break it, I will make another. I like wood handles, no guard and have strange looking blades but they work for me.

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## Gray Wolf

Am I the only one that thinks a full tang knife is a much better made and stronger all around wilderness tool?

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## flandersander

you may be, but I bought a knige advertised to be "full tang" for 15 bucks, and the firts rabbit I went to skin, the blade broke right off when I accedintally stuck it in the breastbone. I don't think that had anything to do with full tang, but I really would like to know what "full tang" and "half tang" and what not means. If sombody could explain it please?

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## crashdive123

> Am I the only one that thinks a full tang knife is a much better made and stronger all around wilderness tool?


Nope.  Other than folders, and of course the Rambo Super Deer Slayer Delux with Laser/Holo Sight/Scope/Tac Light, all of my knives have a full tang.

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## crashdive123

> you may be, but I bought a knige advertised to be "full tang" for 15 bucks, and the firts rabbit I went to skin, the blade broke right off when I accedintally stuck it in the breastbone. I don't think that had anything to do with full tang, but I really would like to know what "full tang" and "half tang" and what not means. If sombody could explain it please?


Full tang means that the piece of metal that the blade is made of continues up into the end of the handle.  If you were to remove the handle, you would have one solid piece of metal.  This is considered much stronger because if the metal ends and a handle is attached to the butt end of it, that becomes a very weak point that can break under stress.  As far as your blade breaking, it may have been a defect in the metal.

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## Rick

flandersander - The tang is the part of the knife that the handle is attached to. A full tang is as Crash said. The metal of the blade extends to the end of the handle. It's one piece of metal from the tip to the butt end of the knife. The "handle" is referred to as scales and attaches to either side of the tang by screws, rivets or sometimes pins. It can also be nothing more than paracord wrapped around the tang. A full tang eliminates potential weak points where the tang attaches to the blade because it's one continuous piece. 

You can also find rat-tailed tangs. The maker generally attaches a rod to the end of the blade. Today, that's commonly done by welding it on. Then the handle is slipped on over the rat-tail. Sometimes there is a decorative cap at the end that is screwed onto the rat-tail rod to hold the handle on. It's a lighter method of making the knife but a weaker method since the knife can break at the weld. 

Stub tangs are really short pieces of metal or rod welded to the end of the knife. Normally not more that a couple of inches long. The handle can be glued on, pinned on or both. You'll find these in cheap kitchen knives. Now you have two weak points. The knife can break at the weld like the rat-tail OR the handle can break away from the stub. If the stub happens to be one piece with the blade you'll find the metal around the hole where it is pinned can also break on a downward cut since all the pressure is applied at that point. Not uncommon to have the blade come right out of the handle.

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## trax

FVR, klkak and Gray Wolf between them said everything anyone needs to know about knives, IMHO, a knife is a knife is a knife, get a knife ...use it...if you don't like it get a different knife. But I agree absolutely with Gray Wolf about a full tang.

flandersanders, what in God's name were you doing sticking a knife into a rabbit's breastbone to skin it?

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## Beo

Here's a bad pic of my knives for trekking and that I use in the wilderness.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
These are just tools, its just a knife, and all are full tang but the bottom one which is for used on fish and as a cooking knife in camp. Troopers is secone from bottom in knife stack. Top knife is the one I made.

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## Gray Wolf

Beo, I like that hatchet on the top.

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## Bibow

beo , how long is that hawk at the bottom?

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## trax

Really like that 'hawk at the bottom of the pic bro

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## Riverrat

Nice set Beo, like a Trax said, really like that hawk at the bottom.

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## Rick

> like a Trax said


a Trax? Is there more than one? Whoa is me......

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## nell67

> a Trax? Is there more than one? Whoa is me......


 Nope,there is only one,unless there is something he hasn't told me???

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## trax

> a Trax? Is there more than one? Whoa is me......


Hey, there's three or four just running around in _my_ head, I don't know about any others besides those

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## Riverrat

Hee hee, oops....

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## Jericho117

Depends, I enjoy the primitive ways but I at least carry a modern knife on me, I only use crude flint blades when my knife is dull and I don't have a sharpener.

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## Beo

The pipe hawk is 18 1/4 inches long, the handle is drilled and is a working pipe also.
I'm looking at making another one, never made a hawk let alone one that is smokeable. 
I'm gonna have to order the head but I'll be looking in the forests for a good wood, I
want curly maple but I don't wanna cut into the big maple tree where I hunt just for a hawk handle.

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## Beo

I got me a new lead ladle and .60 cal bullet mold so I'm gonna make my own round balls for my flinter, I was thinking of using copper instead of lead, I got a huge jar of pennies and was gonna make about 30 to see how they would fire.

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## Jay

Well guys, over here we dont have brand name knives.  What I use are homemade kinves and axes.  however one of the knives in the pic is from America.  A friend brought it for me.  can u guess which one? 
I once checked out a Ka-bar about 8 years ago...it cost 7500rupees.  way beyond my budget!  But I find that our knives are best suited for our jungles even if they a touch crude.

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## Gray Wolf

The picture is small (yes even enlarged), but I'll guess the top left knife. What's the story behind the bottom bow?

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## nell67

> The picture is small (yes even enlarged), but I'll guess the top left knife. What's the story behind the bottom bow?


if you click on it again,it will get bigger Gray Wolf
I guess the the one next to the bottom on the left?

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## Gray Wolf

Thanks nell, but I just forgot to put on my glasses.  :Big Grin: 


Now that I can see, I'm stickin with the top left...

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## Jay

> The picture is small (yes even enlarged), but I'll guess the top left knife. What's the story behind the bottom bow?


The bottem bow is one that I made myself from a picture I saw in a magazine about native american bows.  it is made from Gauva wood.  Works pretty well for small game. The second knife from the top on the right is an American kinfe.  A friend got it for me from a kinfe show in Tucson, Arizona a few years ago.   Nice kinife...but will not stand up to the riggors of our jungles.  fairly good as a skinner....which it was ment to be I guess.

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## Gray Wolf

> The bottem bow is one that I made myself from a picture I saw in a magazine about native american bows.  it is made from Gauva wood.


Nice work on that bow Jay!

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## Jay

> Nice work on that bow Jay!


Thanks GW.  The bow on the top is a pellet bow made by our indigenous folk,(they are called veddas), it shoots a small round stone and can carry for around 150yds. very effective against crop raiding birds such as parrots etc.
The vaddhas are pretty much like your plains indians. except that they live in the forests.  however they have been assimilated (if that is the correct word) into the Singalese society, and are now a dying breed.  even their traditional knowledge is gone.  it is a sad thing.  I try to talk to as many elders as I can in my travels about their traditional ways and try to learn them. but I fear its too late now.

  The first blade from the top left is a very thin blade I use for skinning.  its made in Germay. brand name"Okapi".  one of the best I've used.  Top right, bottom right and bottom left are blades I made my self.  I'm not very good at it as you can probably tell.  I do prefer full tang heavy bladed knives for general jungle use.

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## Rick

Impressive, Jay. Really nice stuff. I've never heard of a pellet bow. It looks like there is a small pouch in the middle to hold the stone. 

Not very good on the knife making? Pretty darn good to my eye!

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## davef

This is a very interesting question.
Actually, there are 2 very different aspects to this question.

First of all, there is the design aspect of the question.
If you are talking strictly about the design of the knife, then I think the 
designs that have been tested, perfected and proven over the years are by 
far more preferable.  To stay around over a long period of time, the designs 
must work.
I'm firmly in the traditional design camp, and don't really care for the modern 
"tacticool" design of knives.

The second aspect of the question deals with the materials and methods 
used in the construction of the knives.  The modern methods are fine tuned 
and specialized in both the composition of the steels, and the heat treat 
process.  The ability of modern day knife makers to "tune" their knives to 
specific needs is impressive indeed.  We now have knives that can be 
pounded through steel pipe on instant, and be able to cut mushy tomatoes 
the next.  Methods for the heat treat that utilize cryogenics in the process 
just boggles my mind.  We have seen a revolution in knife making with the 
advent of "super steels".

Are they better than the steels from the past?  At the risk of offending 
some, I will say yes.

Does this mean that the Kabar with 1095 steel is no good?  
Absolutely not!!!
Just ask anyone who owns one.  They would give you a look like you're one 
step from the looney bin if you suggested that their Kabar was no good.

For a moment though, just let your mind wander to the prospect of utilizing 
new methods and new super steels in the production of a Kabar knife.
I've read on here that some who own a Kabar made with D2 steel think that 
it is the toughest knife they have ever owned, yet D2 really is better suited 
in a knife that is used for slicing, not for a knife that takes a lot of pounding 
and abuse.
If I had the opportunity to own a Kabar that was made with CPM3V, INFI, S7 
or SR101 steel, I would not only jump at the chance to buy one or more of 
them, but I would also be willing to spend hundreds of dollars on each knife.
Why?

Because I know that those steels are some of the toughest there are.  
Combine them with a great traditional design like a Kabar clip point and you 
have the best of both worlds.

I would have to firmly say that I'm in the modern camp in regards to the 
newer steels used for knifemaking today.

Sorry for the long winded answer folks.  
It was my way of explaining that when it comes to design, 
I'm a traditionalist, but when it comes to materials, I'm a modernist.

Where does this leave non-metal knives?  Obsidian or flint knives?
That I can't comment on, as I've never had the opportunity to use
any of those types of knives.
Hopefully, someone who makes those types of knives will join in and 
give their opinion.

My $150.00 worth ($0.02 adjusted to modern inflation levels  :Smile:  )

Cheers
Dave

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## Gray Wolf

The heat treating, the way a blade is tempered, grain structure and carbide distribution of the steel, are the keys to a great performing knife blade. One company that is using SR-77 steel for their blades, which is a slightly modified version of S-7 tool steel (S-7 steel is commonly used in jackhammer bits), sounds like they have made a great blade. But I have many questions about using that steel in the field. I'm trying to get one to test (possible pass around 3), and hopefully find that it's as good as the marketing says.

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## tonester

i am more on the traditional side. i mean certain knife designs have been around forever and i think that just proves how good they are to pass the test of time. if the steel of the blade is a good steel and you take care of it properly it should last you forever, you dont really need a new super steel to have the best blade or knife.

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## Gray Wolf

All tools have evolved with time. Once they were made of stone, bone, wood, etc. Even tools of metal have evolved, whether it be a knife, sword or hammer. All guns have evolved. What's wrong with a better widget?

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## Gray Wolf

tonester, is that non-traditional RAT knife in your avatar yours?

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## tonester

yah, its one of many. although its carbon steel and has micarta scales, i think the overall design is still simple and traditional, its just a drop point.

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## Gray Wolf

Don't forget about the new type of blade coating (to protect the steel). Love that knife.  :Big Grin:

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## Blood Groove

What I really like is a good old fashioned knife design with new materials and made by a modern company. Then you get the good traditional  design and better materials to make it.

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