# General > General Guns & Ammo >  Folding 22 as a survival tool Pro VS Cons...

## Wise Old Owl

Deep in a thread a member discussed adding a 22 folding Keltec rifle to a pack.
348330_03_kel_tec_su_16a_folding_rifle_5_640.jpg

I can see the advantage of small game & personal safety. But I can see disadvantages too.Weight vs Function. I have shot 22 before but when it comes to small game other than rabbits, a scope is also a need.  

As a group would you want one or is there something better, for a pack.

So much folks want to bring in a pack - is this one item too much?

how much ammo would you pack? 10-50 bullets.... Keep in mind I am only asking in a survival context.

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## Rick

I suppose it depends on where you are. Where I am a 12 gauge shotgun would probably be my choice with a mix of shell types. I have a folding Kel-tec 9mm, which would be fine for self defense but a little tougher on squirrels, rabbits and birds. Standing still, really big birds.

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## hunter63

Had an AR -7 that was ...ah worn out.....ended up being a single shot....they do pack into the stock for a compact auto loading .22.
Currently have a take down Ruger 10/.22......to be kept in the pack....but would carry a 12 or 20 ga of some sort......if this was a survival situation.

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## randyt

I carry a remington single shot 510 for most of my minor needs or I carry a remington 510 that I converted to 22 mag. TBH I'm not much for a semi auto, there may be one or two laying about but I seem to go back to my standbys

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## kyratshooter

If you get to cherry pick the gun you are not in a "survival context".

For me, getting caught with nothing but a .22 would be the ultimate sucky situation.  

I want a shotgun.

As for the "pack", you can keep that too, along with the concept of surviving out of one.

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## Wildthang

Get one of the over under combo guns! .22 mag or .223 over a 20Ga shotgun! Almost the best of both worlds! I would take the .223 over 20 ga. just my preference

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## randyt

A shotgun would be good, I always forget when I'm in the woods it usually checking a trapline or scouting for a new line. With that in mind I would use granddad's iver johnson 12 ga double for my un-minor needs.

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## fjrmurph

I have a US Henry Survivial 22. Two 7 shot clips , semi-auto and it all fits in the stock . Fits in my knapsack , good for squirrels , rabbits , Grouse , Partridge. It really like CCI stinger ammo. I carry this one a lot.

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## hunter63

If you could only have one gun....or two or what ever....the list would read:
1) 12 ga pump.

then everything else.

The first .22 would be on the list a couple of lines down as Ruger Single Six, after .357, long shooter.....fill in the blanks

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## taint

I've taken literally a ton of birds and critters with a .22lr handgun. Why give up the rapidfire and concealment of the handgun? Even better, you can shorten the barrel of a Ruger 2245, incorporate an integral sound suppressor, and have an end product that is BB gun quiet, weighs 22 ozs and is just 1" longer than a Govt model 1911. To get it that quiet, however, you have to run it "wet" and you have to lock shut the bolt.  if you run it dry and let the slide cycle, it's about as noisy as a mild handclap.

Hunting with a silencer is now legal in most states. Ruger has brought out a line of silencers. Soon, they will no longer be an NFA 34 restricted item!  when you miss a critter with a silencer, they often do not flee. :-) others nearby often don't flee when  you kill the first one, if it is dropped cleanly. Along with a set of luminous sight inserts, a silencer is a truly amazing addition to your gear. the added potential of either of those items has to be experienced to be appreciated and the pair, on the same pistol, wow!

With such a pistol and iron sights (I do recommend optics, for most people, specifically the Bushnell, I can stand, unsupported and hit more 2" disks with such a silenced Ruger than I'll miss at 25 yds.  That level of performance will put a lot of meat into the pot.

9mm ball ammo doesn't tear up any more meat than a Stinger .22lr hp (from a rifle)

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## Rick

Probably because I don't need concealment in the woods. Besides, I live in an open carry state so it's a mute point for me.

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## crashdive123

One trick pony rides again.

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## natertot

wait. Pony rides? I like pony rides! I just hope someone doesn't shoot the pony. Especially with silenced luminous sights!

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## Rick

I bought luminous sites last week and had the gun shop silence them. Very quiet and bright. By the way, the owner was telling me that the best all around rig for SHTF was an AR with a .22 conversion kit and a silencer. I told him he was full of beans. He was just trying to get me to spend more money on a silencer when I just had my sites silenced. I'm not that dumb.

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## crashdive123

Should have gotten the full auto, silenced luminous sights.

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## kyratshooter

Did someone say silenced, luminous ponies?

I want one of those in luminous green please.  

The grand kids can ride him, I can quit mowing the grass and he will never get lost at night.

I'm still waiting for the Cherrios box and pictures of the gear!

Do the international world leaders know that every problem they encounter can be solved with a $1.5k AR with .22 conversion unit and silencer?  

Famine=get you a .22 pistol with silencer
Plague=get you an AR and .22 adapter w/silencer
flood=paddle that boat with an AR
nuclear war=crawl under the bed and hug that AR

Do I have a vote for installing a silencer on the forum?  Can we take a poll?  This has gone way past our normal madness level and past what the "ignore button" was designed for.

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## natertot

> I'm still waiting for the Cherrios box and pictures of the gear!


I hope you aren't holding your breathe!

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## taint

why is it that the ones who are SO wise, insightful and "knowledgable"having nothing but bs to offer, hmm? why aint THEY starting new gun topics and providing links and how to info?  Could it be that they're just fos?

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## crashdive123

> why is it that the ones who are SO wise, insightful and "knowledgable"having nothing but bs to offer, hmm? why aint THEY starting new gun topics and providing links and how to info?  Could it be that they're just fos?


Well, the one that is fos has just been banned.

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## 1stimestar

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## hunter63

Thanks....was just getting plain annoying........Sheesh.

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## kyratshooter

I think it might have been a good reality check to keep us on track with sensible views of our equipment and the purposes we modify that equipment to meet.

I was afraid to tell the guy that I already owned everything he was talking about for fear he would decide I was his buddy and agreed with him!

Lost in the woods is not the same as fighting a "one man against the world" war in the woods. 

Is it safe to use the word "shotgun" again?

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## 1stimestar

Dang it, he didn't get to see my silenced luminous pony!

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## hunter63

Well, I was still waiting to find out what the rented sat phone was for...

And I think he only had  2 guns....AR .22 and a .380......cause that all he kept bringing up......Poor thing.

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## tundrabadger

For some,  the first sign of spring is a robin,  or maybe  a hint of green grass peeping through the still melting snow.  For others,  it's  the first flower,  or even the sap running in a sugar bush. 

For wilderness survival forum members, however,   the first sign of spring is a sudden influx of nutbars who want to talk about their ar .22,   brag about how prepared they for shtf, and generally show everybody that they are schlitzy the wonder survivalist.   

Truly,  it is a magical time.

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## natertot

Darn.... I guess no pics of the guns with a box of cheerios!

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## tundrabadger

> Darn.... I guess no pics of the guns with a box of cheerios!


Not this time, but I can take one of my leatherman  and a bin of oatmeal if it helps.

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## natertot

> Not this time, but I can take one of my leatherman  and a bin of oatmeal if it helps.


Lol. I am sure that was about all the guy really had too!

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## 1stimestar

> Darn.... I guess no pics of the guns with a box of cheerios!


I gottcha covered.  Honey NUT even.

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## Mr.Shrooms

This may or may not have anything to do with this thread  but has anyone ever noticed that crazy people always think everyone else is crazy? I mean this taint guy has 70 posts in 3 days he's gotta be spewing "wise insightful knowledge" from every orifice of his body or at least one of them. I mean I say I'm full of BS, what did they fill him with. O and thank you 1stimestar for the pic's . lmfao.

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## Rick

It's a case of late season cabin fever. Being stuck in mom's basement all winter does that. I think the only thing this guy had that was silent and luminous were probably his farts.

Great pic, 1st. Just perfect! That's the kind of guy that would take a handgun to breakfast for fear the Honey Nut Bee might need an eye shot.

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## natertot

Lol. Thanks 1st!

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## hunter63

Well, they don't put revolvers as prizes like that in our Cheerios around here.
Just 27 box tops?  ....  
Y'all must be tough In Alaska?

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## tundrabadger

Y'know what would make that revolver even better, 1st?  Luminous sights.   For when you're eating your cereal in the woods and the bad guys come.

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## Old Professor

I previously posted about winning a .22LR suppressor. I now have the official stamp from the NFA, so I am good to go. Nice thing about suppressors is that the suppressor is what is licensed, not the firearm. I can put the suppressor on any firearm of the appropriate caliber, once it is threaded.  I have a Ruger 45/22 with a threaded bbl, so I am good to go.  I am thinking/deliberating about buying a Ruger Take down 10/22 with a threaded bbl and/or getting the bbl of my 77/22 shortened and threaded. The second option would be better for hunting.  Michigan just made suppressors legal for hunting!!!  I have also purchased a .308 caliber suppressor and am waiting for the NFA approval. I just happens that I own a Ruger Frontier bolt action in .308 Win that has a muzzle break that screws on the bbl. All I will need to do is screw off the muzzle break and screw on the suppressor. This will be great when hunting out of my ground blind, all though it is a case of locking the door after the horse has been stolen (ie: I am already hearing inparied)

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## Batch

Florida also allows hunting with a suppressor. In many countries in Europe hunting with a suppressor is encouraged and suppressors can be bought over the counter.

there are multiple caliber suppressors on the market. Also, you can use a larger caliber suppressor on a smaller caliber barrel as long as the threads are the same. So, if you have a .45 and the threads match the barrels of your .40 or 9mm you can use the same suppressor. Stick to the type of cartridge (rim-fire, center-fire handgun, center-fire rifle) of equal or lesser caliber and pressure is fine.

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## Wildthang

We need a mouth suppressor for some of our new members, do they make those? And how much pressure will they handle?

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## tundrabadger

> We need a mouth suppressor for some of our new members, do they make those? And how much pressure will they handle?



I don't think one would have held up to Taint, somehow.

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## crashdive123

> We need a mouth suppressor for some of our new members, do they make those? And how much pressure will they handle?


I thought that was my new screen name.

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## Phaedrus

I'm not even sure what a "survival rifle" is anymore.  For personal protection I can't imagine it doing much good in a backpack.  I guess you're supposed to know two minutes ahead of time that you're going to be attacked?  Threats can come up on you just as quickly in the woods as they can at an urban ATM machine.  If you're looking to protect yourself from a mountain lion or bear it had better be in your hand already when you're attacked!  Those critters move quickly and stealthily.  Year back a photographer was shooting pics of a mama bear and cubs.  It was a little eerie looking at the pics; the bear kept getting closer in the pics.  At some point the guy realized he was in trouble but it was too late- his mauled corpse was found with a cocked but unfired .44 Mag revolver nearby.  He had time to cock it but not enough to pull the trigger.  Big cats will be upon you well before you even know they're nearby.  If you run across a narcotrafficer or wilderness drug lab those folks probably won't wait patiently for you to dig a rifle out of your pack.

If you do get it out then having your rifle in .22 LR isn't the best idea.  Not a lot of stopping power or range.  Another big issue is that .22 LR through autos isn't all that reliable.  They tend to have a lot feeding and reliability issue compared to centerfire rounds.

If you mean to use it for subsistence hunting then a .22 would be better than nothing.  It's not easy to take big game with .22 rimfire but obviously it has been a lot.  My dad used to say that the .22LR probably killed more deer than every other round combined.  I have no idea if that's true but it wouldn't be surprising. Personally I'd feel better with something larger but to be honest the only firearms I carry in the woods (if I'm not hunting) are my sidearms, normally either an HK P30S, HK USPf9 or HK VP9.  Not ideal at all for hunting but pretty handy to have for protection against two legged varmints.

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## hunter63

I guess I would question a self protection AR, with the .22 conversion...(also suggested by Taint)....and would suck to have to call time out to switch out the conversion.....to say nothing of the ear plugs.....for the extra range...as it were.

That's kinda where the rifle in a pack is for me as well....
If I'm carry something, I would want it a little easier to access.

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## randyt

this is a survival rifle

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## crashdive123

Yep, or as ole Sourdough would say........I don't even go to the outhouse without my walkabout gun in my hands.

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## hunter63

Looks like a .22......?

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## randyt

there's no proof LOL, most of those cree had a 22 rifle, 30-30 or 38-55 and sometimes a shotgun

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## hunter63

I used to lust after the Herter's bolt action, Single Shot rifles that were for sale for like $35 bucks for the field grade....and were supposedly for the Canadian native market.
Any caliber you wanted.......

I have never seen one at a show......

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## tundrabadger

I can tell you, all seriousness,  .22 magnum  is or at least used to be a really popular caliber back home,  along with .223 and I think occasionally a .243.  The latter two are what one of my inuk buddies maintains fervently are what you want if you can only have one rifle.   Another guy I knew took down at least one caribou that I know of with a .22.

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## randyt

I have a lustful heart too LOL  The inuit preferred 22 hornet for the longest time.

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## kyratshooter

Anyone else remember the scene in the documentary Happy People where the guy is going out trapping for the winter season and he has a .22, and an O/U 12ga, and an SKS, and a Mosin carbine all on the boat?

One gun?  No thanks.  

Survival gun?  Probably what you have in your hands when the survival situation emerges (Lord pray it be an AK or a 12ga).

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## randyt

sadly the four hour version of happy people is no longer available

did anyone notice no one had a handgun?

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## hunter63

You know....
Randy, I really thought that when I mentioned the Herter's rifle, you were gonna come back with, "Yeah I have a few of them".......LOL

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## randyt

I'm going to have to pull out a old herters catalog to see which one you are talking about, maybe I do, just kidding but there is always tomorrow LOL lustful heart and all

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## randyt

I cheated pulled out Frank Dehass book on bolt action rifles. Herters had a single shot rifle called the plinker available in 22 hornet and .222. It looks eerily similar to the one in the photo I posted.

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## tundrabadger

> You know....
> Randy, I really thought that when I mentioned the Herter's rifle, you were gonna come back with, "Yeah I have a few of them".......LOL


I'm personally disappointed that Kyrat hasn't  said he has any.  It's destroying my illusions.  I'm crushed.  Might have to call in sick tomorrow.

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## kyratshooter

> I'm personally disappointed that Kyrat hasn't  said he has any.  It's destroying my illusions.  I'm crushed.  Might have to call in sick tomorrow.


I did not get into the serious gun buying phase of my life until after the GCA 1968 went into effect and one could no longer just order a firearm from a catalog.  Down in TN Herters was not a real popular brand.  Down there it was mostly Sears shooting gear one catalog ordered.

I never bought any Herters rifles but I did start my reloading experience on a $12 Herters C press.  Thing was cast Iron and weighed 50 pounds!

I still have two sets of Herters reloading dies in 9mm and .357 and still use parts of them.  The resizing dies were not carbide and I wore them out sometime around 1980.  The seating and crimping dies still work.

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## randyt

I have old cast iron herters press, haven't been used in years

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## hunter63

I had a Herter's .357 revolver looked like Ruger Blackhawk....Made in West Germany.
Sent it down the road for double the money that I paid.

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## Wildthang

Well just poking around here in Ohio, I feel very safe with my Single Six with the magnum cylinder. I have shot it enough that I rarely miss, and it is very light and easy to carry in the holster. If I was in a state where there was wild hogs or bear, it would be my .357. It's really very simple!
If SHTF ever really happens I will pack my Super Dooper AR-15 with luminous sights loaded with the fast stuff!

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## crashdive123

I love my Single Six, but wouldn't categorize it as falling into the "light" category.  All relative I suppose.

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## tjwilhelm

Going back to the query and context of the original post...

"Folding 22";  survival context;  advantages vs. disadvantages (?); weight vs. function (?);  scope needed(?);  amount of ammo to pack (?);  better alternatives?

Here's one thing I have, and why, for whatever it may be worth:

I have a stainless 10-22 with a Butler folding stock.  I modified the stock to accommodate an E.A.Brown non-tapered, threaded-end barrel with a 1:9 "fast twist."  This barrel is designed for the Aguila Super Sniper Subsonic .22 ammo -- 60 grain slug in a .22-short casing.  950 fps = a bit quieter.  60 grains = more wallop.  That said, this will also shoot a more standard 40 grain .22 bullet.  

For a concealed handgun, I also have a Ruger SR-22 -- a small but sweet little shooter.

I don't have the rifle scoped.  In a small game harvest, under a survival context, I don't expect to be doing much shooting any further out then 25 yards.  I would avoid human-conflict situations; but, if forced into a close-quarters self-defense situation, I'd be going for head and chest shots with the concealed SR-22.  

I'd carry 100 rounds of ammo (at least), 50 of the 40 grain and 50 of the 60 grain.

This folder is certainly heavier and longer (when folded) than a smaller, take-down or pack rifle (with its barrel stuffed into the stock).  That said, it's not TOO heavy, and I like the 60-grain, sub-sonic ammo option.  It also deploys (unfolds, ready to fire) pretty quickly and easily.

I'm sure there may well be better options; but, this is what I've put together.

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## Wildthang

> I love my Single Six, but wouldn't categorize it as falling into the "light" category.  All relative I suppose.


I consider it light when you compare it with a .22 rifle, folding or otherwise. I want something I can grab quickly, and a folded or take apart .22 rifle is rarely a quick draw weapon unless you happen to be carrying it in a ready state.
I suppose if I was going to be in the wilderness long term, a rifle would be more desirable and would certainly merit the additional weight!

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## crashdive123

Gotcha.....

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## hunter63

Carry my Ruger single 6 (first hand gun, ever...) more than most any other shooting tool in the woods........

When canoeing, kept it in a water resistant fanny pack (before CC) along with my early version of a PSK.

We were canoeing and fishing in a state park at the confluence of the Wisconsin, and Mississippi Rivers.
Friend spent all morning telling me all the reasons I shouldn't be carrying it.....gonna go to jail for sure....Blah, blah....Blah.

He and his boy were in another canoe...banged up against a downed tree....partly in the water.....
Dropped a big water snake in the canoe with them.

He started screaming...."give me the gun, give me the gun...". 

Told him, "No, I don't want to go to jail.....It's your snake".

He called me names, and but did flip it out with the paddle. 

Our newer CC laws have made a lot of people legal.

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## crashdive123

You do realize that if you gave him the gun he would have put six holes in the bottom of the canoe don't you?  Sure would have been fun to watch.

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## hunter63

Yes, did think of that.....but would have been more fun with the .Ruger .45.....makes a LOT bigger holes.......

Duck tape......

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## Wildthang

I know this isn't a Single six thread, but I fell in love with my S6 the first time I shot it! Mine has the  7 1/2 inch barrel with adjustable sights. The day I bought it I took out in the back 40, set up a coke can, backed off about 25 yards, and put all 6 rounds right through the middle of the can. I have never had to even adjust the sights.
The little gun is one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot.
With the Mag cylinder in her I believe it would be a fair defense weapon as long as the other guy doesn't get the drop on me! Not what I would pack if things were getting crazy, but most days it is all I'll ever need!

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## hunter63

I just consider it a handy, accurate,  alternate for a folding .22 for a pack.....

While hunting is Wyoming, on an active ranch, all the cowboys were carrying them as well.....
I ask why....One said, That was all he needed for varmints.

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## randyt

had a single six with a 9 inch barrel

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## Rick

I used to love my SS but have put it back in the safe lately. It just doesn't have a luminous silencer which seems to take something away from it. I'm not sure what that something is but I'll know it if I ever see it.

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