# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Hunting & Trapping >  Hunter shoots bear in its Den!

## Mtnman Mike

It would be interesting to know what some of you think of a hunter who shoots a bear hibernating in its den.

If the guy needed food etc. maybe it would be ok but he must have been pretty desperate to get a trophy bear, to go into a den to shoot it >>

"A hunter from Craig may have killed one of the biggest bears ever in Colorado. 

But how the hunter bagged his prize is creating quite a controversy, according to CBS affiliate KCNC.

Richard Kendall told The Craig Daily Press that he tracked the 700 pound bear to its den north of Meeker, then waited five hours for it to come out.

When the bear did not emerge, he went in and killed it.

The Division of Wildlife says it has been getting lots of calls from people outraged about how Kendall killed the bear.

"There are certainly ethical standards within the hunting community: Don't shoot ducks on a pond. Don't shoot turkeys on a roost. Don't shoot bears in a den," Hampton told the station."

full story here:    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...68-504083.html


Much more on the story with a new pic of the bear hanging >   http://www.gjsentinel.com/outdoors/a...d_bear_attract

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## Camp10

This is a pretty complicated question to answer.  The knee jerk reaction is to attack the guy for being unethical but it says he tracked the bear to its den.  He didnt expect the hunt to end with the bear in bed and because he waited 5 hours makes me think he is an ethical hunter who just knew what a trophy he was following.

While hunting is about meat at most of our level, it is about so much more when you back up and look at the full picture.  There is quite a bit of science behind the decisions that the state biologists and conservation officers make when determining what zones are open and how many tags are issued.  The harvest is also about protecting the population of an animal and keeping it healthy.  

There was a study several years ago up here and while I cant remember the real numbers anymore, it was determined that for every whitetail taken in Maine it would keep x number more from starving to death.  It seems it was around 6 or 7 back then but I really cant remember...

The other side of it is that the animal was a trophy.  The idea of getting a "trophy" is what makes people spend millions and millions of dollars on the sport.  That money opens up land for everyone to use and enjoy..not just hunters.  That is a pretty important part of hunting that so many people want to ignore.  There are lots of state parks all over this country closed to hunting even though it was their dollars that made them possible.  It also helps finance the studies that keep the animal levels at a healthy level.

I agree that there is a level of sportsmanship that says dont shoot a sleeping animal, a sitting bird or the younger animals but it was a fair chase hunt that just ended in the bears bedroom...every deer hunter has jumped a deer bedded down,there isnt much difference IMO.

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## Rick

+1 Camp. Not much to add. The guy didn't do anything illegal. While it may not seem like an appropriate thing to do that is only a matter of opinion and we all know about those.

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## BENESSE

That's a new level of low. Just 'cause it's legal doesn't make it right.

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## Justin Case

I think Killing for a trophy is just wrong,,,  :Angry:

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## kyratshooter

Is one person making more money than another wrong?

Is competing for a footbal/baseball/basketball trophy wrong?

Is being the best wrong?

Is pursuing the biggist baddest bear in the state wrong?

Does shooting a scroungy meat deer make you more noble than taking a 10 point monster that is standing right behind it? 

JC you have swallowed the southern Kalifornia thought process hook line and sinker!

Anyone here want to crawl into a hole in the ground with a 700 pound bear that might or might not be asleep?

Personally, I think the guy should have stood beside the den opening and thrown rocks inside until the half asleep critter came to the door and shot it.  I have no idea why he told anyone the bear was in den when he shot it.  I would have hooked it to the pickup and drug it out before anyone got there.  

The western states take in a big part of their WMA revinues from people going there to hunt species not available in their home areas.  Many of my friends spend thousands of dollars on hunts to Wyoming, Montana and Colorado each year pursuing elk, mule deer and bear.  

I am sure the loophole in the law will be closed next year after all the left coast liberals impose their wishes on the Colorado WMA.

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## Justin Case

WHY do you keep making reference to where I live ?  Thats just stupid !   I think killing for the hell of it is wrong,,  Thats all,,  Take it or leave it,  I think people that take the life of another "Animal" just to have a trophy are A$$ Holes !!  BTW,,  Lots of people "Hunt" in California,,  LOL

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Every animal I have ever hunted was a "Trophy" to me. No, none of them had big horns/antlers, they weren't larger than others, nothing "Special" to anyone other than me. Yet every single one was a trophy, from the doves to the deer.
Tracking an animal to it's lair/Den Usually poses it's own difficulties. Think it's easy? Try it.

Hunting a bear, can be very dangerous all in itself(Especially tracking them on the ground). The fact that this guy waited 5 hours outside HAD to be very stressful all in itself. "Do I wait?" "Do I go in?" "What if the bear smells me and rushes me?" "Should I wait, should I go?" "It's starting to get dark... gotta' do something soon." "If I leave him, will he wake and hunt me?" Took me only a couple of minutes to come up with those thoughts.... he had 5 hours.

Now I'm sure he KNEW he had a "Big 'un" holed up there, but whether he "knew" he had a "Trophy" is debatable. Tracks in snow can deform and make a smaller track look MUCH Bigger, especially on a sunny day. People have found bobcat tracks in snow and "Just KNEW" they had found Mountain Lion tracks. A Mountain Lion is an Animal that is easily twice the size of a bobcat, with a track that is Remarkably larger by far. All I can read from what I know about hunting into this story is this.... He knew he had a bear, he knew it had been active recently,possibly debating on whether to attack him or not.

While I personally don't think it's ethical to do what was done..... I can understand perhaps some of the thoughts that may have crossed his mind. I don't think I would have left the bear alive either, even considering my thoughts on this type of hunting.... Bears are faster, more stealthy, better senses, and sometimes they can hold a grudge even where no reason may exist. It could have just boiled down to what is "Prudent"... a simple question of "Me or him". This story could have a totally different ending had he decided to leave the bear, It woke up, and hunted and bagged him instead. Then people would be saying "Why didn't he just kill the bear?" Well he did. I guess it's just a matter of " Durned if you do, durned if you don't." If it hadn't been a "Trophy bear" would this story have garnered the same attention? I doubt it.

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## KhonHd

Hunting is hunting, killing is killing.  Shooting from a tree stand or going into the den.  It all hunting weather you like it or not...  There is no sanctuary where the bear can call "time out".  Just like the bear wouldn't walk away because a moose calf was small and with its mother...  It would snatch the calf and start eating.  It called hunting.  Now I would never condone a person taking a sow with cubs.  That is just wrong.

He didn't bear any laws.  So if he has the stones to go into the den, all the power to him.  I would personally soil my pants just thinking about going into the den...

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## BENESSE

Good lord kyrat, you're all over the place!!!
If you could settle down for a sec. you'd realize that competing for a footbal/baseball/basketball trophy or being "the best" has squat to do with shooting a sleeping bear in his den and calling it "sport".
If we want to open up the floodgates, I could think of a s-load of things _I_'d like to do just for sport. Turning a rooster into a chicken would be on top of the list.  :Sneaky2:

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## ClovisMan

I tell you one thing, it takes some pretty large cajones to go into a bear den. I'll call it a good hunt.

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## Rick

There was nothing in the article that said he hunted just for trophy. He might have been hunting for food and happened upon the tracks of what turned out to be a trophy sized animal. There's nothing in the article that says he wasn't trophy hunting either. 

Whether you sit in a blind and call in animals/waterfowl or sit in a tree or bait a hook or crawl in the den if you are trying to get food it's all good in my book. When I go squirrel hunting I sit in the woods and look nuts. Is that fair?

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## Reverend Greg

Personally I think that it was not right to have gone into the den and shot the bear....he should have waited longer or lured the animal out.I also think if you are not going to use a great majority of the beast then you shouldn't kill it.My son trapped a large raccoon at my fathers house and wanted me to come shoot it and skin it.Well....I don't like 'coon meat,and we were only going to use the skin and a few of the bones...so I had my Dad take it to the relocation site he takes all of the squirrels and other varmints from his neighborhood....does that make me better than the cat who shot a resting bear?I don't think so,I just have hippy streak is all.Besides there is a 'coon in his back yard that expired form acute high speed lead poisoning,and rabies that will be ready to harvest bones from soon...
(G)

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## Mtnman Mike

Thanks for the comments guys.  I guess there are no gals posting in this thread?

In a couple other places I posted 99% have taken the bear's side.   And some seem to actually hate the guy  by saying he should have his ..... nevermind..  


I wonder what people would think if a news headline was "Bear shoots hunter sleeping in his den ?

Here is what  would happen in an animal dominated world  :Banana:  >

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## Rick

Yes, there are women on the board. We refer to them as Goddesses, however. Some even posted to this thread.

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## klickitat

Camp 10 and Kyratshooter are both spot on!

The only thing I would add is that the guy actually had the balls to go in there and face his prey. How many in here would go in after a 700 # bear not knowng if it was sleeping or awake? 

I'd sit down at camp with guy any day of the week.

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## SARKY

If he went into the den with just a knife I have no problems. Shooting a bear in it's den I do have a problem with. There were a number of things he could have done including smoke the bear out.

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## BENESSE

"There are certainly ethical standards within the hunting community:  Don't shoot ducks on a pond. Don't shoot turkeys on a roost. Don't shoot  bears in a den." --quote from the article.

If you're not going to be an ethical hunter, you are not going to be ethical _anything_. People who operate on a personal ethical sliding scale are probably doing more than shooting hibernating bears in their den. And it doesn't take balls.

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## kyratshooter

Say B, that's your second reference to testicular equipment, which is a personal jibe and has nothing to do with hunting.   

I know lots of female hunters, I married one from New York.  

I do believe that your desire to do a sex change on hunters not making your prefered behavior list is quite unsporting! 

All of those "Dont's" you point out are not laws, they are the standards set by aristocratic hunters on food hunters to seperate "sport hunters" from market hunters  back in the early 20th century.

People that did not need to worry about having food on the table could be picky about when, where and what they shot.  Somehow, modern people instantly take the stand that no one HAS to hunt so everyone should follow the "sporting" rules.  

This particular person may have mixed sport hunting with subsistance hunting, but he broke no laws.  In one state hunting over bait is illigal, in another it is OK.  In some states chasing deer with dogs is legal, in others it is not.  In one state shooting deer with buckshot is legal, in others it is not.  In my county I can shoot an unlimited number of deer, one county over I can only take 2.  

It is up to each state to set their standards and sitting in KY or NY or CA gives me zero authority to tell Colorado what to do or how to write their game laws.

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## crashdive123

Oh for goodness sakes!

If you want to comment on the OP, then by all means do so - but drop the personal jabs.  They do little to further your argument.

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## klickitat

The most unethical thing in the world is a pure sportsman. A person who hunts for the pleasure of killing an animal with no intentions of using the game. He or she will make up arbitrary rules to make themselves feel good with their false morality. 

Killing anything is an ugly matter. However if you kill to feed your family, then the killing is justified and for a higher purpose. This includes killing for furs if those furs are used to supplement your income.

How many people on this site are willing to crawl in a den with a 700# bear? I am willing to wager that even with a gun MOST on here would never even consider it.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> How many people on this site are willing to crawl in a den with a 700# bear? I am willing to wager that even with a gun MOST on here would never even consider it.


Uh.... not me. I have no desire to go into an enclosed area of any type where more advantage is given to the animal than it already possesses. Bear are extremely fast too, for a short distance. Even faster than a Quarter Horse, which is one of the fastest Horses in a short distance. Dense bone, powerful, .... yeah it was not something I would want to do.

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## Camp10

Poco made a great point about "trophy animals" and I think it is one of the most misunderstood terms to non-hunters.  My best whitetail dressed out at 209 lbs and while I never scored it (cause we dont do that up here) I'm sure it is a 150-160 class buck.  Not a bad animal...I turned him into meat just like the 115 pounder I got the following year.  A "trophy hunter" can still be a meat hunter but one who has learned enough patience to wait for a good animal to take.

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## Justin Case

almost anybody can kill a sleeping bear with a gun,,  now had he beat it to death with his bare hands,,  well that may be worthy of a "Trophy"   :Wink:

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## Mtnman Mike

I just added another link that tells much more about the guy and the bear he killed.  It will help understand what happened >>   http://www.gjsentinel.com/outdoors/a...d_bear_attract

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Well when it got to this point......



> I went in about 6 feet, and I could just see the tip of his nose without a flashlight, Kendall said. He was growling and snapping his jaws at me.
> 
> Kendall said that after he shined his flashlight on the bear, the bear laid back its ears.
> 
> A buddy told me when they lay back their ears theyre usually going to charge, so I decided I better shoot while I have the chance, said Kendall, who was carrying a .45-70 caliber lever-action rifle.


I think it quit being about ethics, and became a matter of survival. At this point it is not about ethics or legality, but about whether you live or die. The bear is obviously awake, menacing, and not hibernating.

Presented with this situation, face to face with an angry large bear, It would not matter if it were  hunting season or not, Game laws at this point are irrelevant. Judge on what was done prior to this point all you want, but at this point it is a done deal in my book. At this point it is "Me or the bear". I know who has my vote. Bye Bear. Callous of me? No more so than fishing for food, at this point, it's all about staying alive to see tomorrow.

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## BENESSE

> Say B, that's your second reference to testicular equipment, which is a personal jibe and *has nothing to do with hunting.  * 
> *You are right, it doesn't.* My reference was in response to people mentioning cojones and balls as though what this nimrod did had _anything_ to do with having any. I have NO idea why _you_ took it personally and wouldn't even want to guess.
> 
> I know lots of female hunters, I married one from New York.  
> 
> I do believe that your desire to do a sex change on hunters not making your prefered behavior list is quite unsporting! 
> Where on earth did I say hunters? And yes, turning a rooster into a hen would be as unsporting as shooting a bear in its den. THAT was the point I was trying to make.
> 
> All of those "Dont's" you point out are not laws, they are the standards set by aristocratic hunters on food hunters to seperate "sport hunters" from market hunters  back in the early 20th century.
> ...


Kyrat, if you are going to take issue with what I said at least _read_ it. I don't make a habit of writing between the lines and hope people won't read it that way. And for the record, I only have a problem with frivolous "sport" hunting, which is anything but.

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## BENESSE

Poco, the guy went INSIDE the den. If he went home instead it wouldn't have been a matter of life and death.
Even legitimate hunters have a problem with what this guy did.

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## Justin Case

I agree B,   I think this gives hunters in general a black eye,,  just my humble opinion of course ,,,   :Smile:

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## NightShade

I think the guy is more dumb than either ballsy or cruel... crawling into a occupied bears den?
like Sarky pointed out, smoking an animal out of it's den is a good idea... safer and easier than crawling in!
but as for "Anyone can shoot a sleeping bear"....... only somebody who has never tracked or stalked a bear would say that...  I don't hunt bear anymore, because I'm Not keen on the taste.. but I can guarantee you that tracking a bear, and crawling into its den to kill it..... is NOT something anyone can do.

Right or wrong??... when hunting for food, I would see this as a crazy..not cruel... tactic.

Hunting just for sport.. well, I enjoy hunting, but never understood killing for" fun and sport" only.

Oh, and just because you get a trophy animal, doesn't mean you're a "trophy hunter"

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## klickitat

This does not give a black eye to hunters. The sissy little girls who are upset about this are never going to be happy with any hunting, that or they are clueless.

The man spent big money on tags, licenses, fuel, equipment and food, just to go out and try and fill the freezer. He did not buy a canned hunt. HE TRACKED A BEAR AND THEN CRAWLED INTO IT'S DEN AND KILLED IT! 

I would shake this mans hand while those who are chastising are not worth warm p!ss on a hot day.

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## Justin Case

> *This does not give a black eye to hunters.* The sissy little girls who are upset about this are never going to be happy with any hunting, that or they are clueless.
> 
> The man spent big money on tags, licenses, fuel, equipment and food, just to go out and try and fill the freezer. He did not buy a canned hunt. HE TRACKED A BEAR AND THEN CRAWLED INTO IT'S DEN AND KILLED IT! 
> 
> I would shake this mans hand while those who are chastising are not worth warm p!ss on a hot day.


wanna bet ?  look at the comments given with the links to the stories above.

I think the guy is a chicken shi,,,, !

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## RangerXanatos

I have no problem with people hunting for food.  Shouldn't matter if it is a trophy, exotic, or whatever as long as it's meant for food.  I'd support a person shooting and eating a bald eagle if they were in dire need.  I'd hope the same person would have the ethics (courtesy?) to shoot a wild turkey of the same size before the eagle, given the opportunity.  But I believe this guy was just hunting for sport, to claim a title.  I hope I'm wrong.

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## NCO

Well, two things. First, hunting and sports don't mix. I see no "sportsmanship" in it. I actually generally don't like the term mixed with anything but 100m Dash... That's just me. 
Second, that's how we used tu hunt bear from two millenia ago all the way to late 20th century... If it's legal, go ahead.

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## klickitat

> wanna bet ?  look at the comments given with the links to the stories above.
> 
> I think the guy is a chicken shi,,,, !



If I gave you a gun, would you go into the den?

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## Rick

Folks, let's drop the name calling. The fact is what this man did was legal. Any and all other comments are, as I said in the beginning, opinion. Everyone is welcome to their own so stop the name calling.

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## Camp10

> wanna bet ?  look at the comments given with the links to the stories above.
> 
> I think the guy is a chicken shi,,,, !


Anyone can claim to be a hunter and then bad mouth him, right?  Lets see a copy of their hunting license with their comments.  The guy tracked this bear..he didnt find it with a radio collar or a dog.  I am sure he would have rather shot it out near a road or stream but he shot it where he finally caught up with it. 

I'm a tracker/stalker and have walked miles and miles to get a deer.  You can be sure that if I find the deer I've tracked for 10 miles sleeping, I'm going to take it and I dont care what anyone who will never work that hard for a meal (or 60) has to say about my choice.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> Poco, the guy went INSIDE the den. If he went home instead it wouldn't have been a matter of life and death.
> Even legitimate hunters have a problem with what this guy did.


True... but he also didn't know for sure that the bear was really in there from his interview. He only knew for sure once he went inside. At that point it was too late.

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## Justin Case

> If I gave you a gun, would you go into the den?


I have a gun,,,  and ,  No, I wouldn't,,  but then I only hunt if i am hungry,  I am just not into killing things for the fun of it,  its not fun for me,   and I dont think it was even a little bit "sportsmanlike" to shoot this animal as it slept in its den, just as its not "sportsmanlike" to spotlight deer. shooting ducks before sunrise,  etc etc,,

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## klickitat

I hate it when people dance. 
If you were hungry and had tracked the bear back to it's den. Would you be willing to go into the den to get the bear or would you be too afraid to go in after it?

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## NCO

To go a bit more on the history side again, the reason bear was hunted here in the den for such a long period of time was respect and fear. Not fear as in "omg scary beast", but more like "it can rip me to pieces, such a magnificent animal" kind of fear. What is greater sign of respect than not even dearing to hunt the animal until it is at it's most voulnerable...

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## Justin Case

> I hate it when people dance. 
> If you were hungry and had tracked the bear back to it's den. Would you be willing to go into the den to get the bear or would you be too afraid to go in after it?


Why would i be afraid , I would have a gun !It would be like "shooting fish in a barrel"  But, I would,'t do that unless me and/or my family was starving,,  its really that simple,,

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## LowKey

This from MtnMan's posted link:



> Kendall and a friend rushed into Meeker for a license and the next morning they were at the den.


This was apparently the day AFTER he tracked it to the den...and after he saw the 8" paw prints and new it was in record territory. Paraphrased but his words.

He didn't know the bear was in there. He saw the tracks the day before. He was looking for a record. Not food. I don't care if you crawl into a den if you are looking for food. I also can't care much as his actions were legal, he harvested a bear in legal hunting season by whatever legal means, but was his reasoning good? <shrug> I wouldn't have done it that way. But that's my opinion.

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## RangerXanatos

> This from MtnMan's posted link:
> 
> This was apparently the day AFTER he tracked it to the den...and after he saw the 8" paw prints and new it was in record territory. Paraphrased but his words.
> 
> He didn't know the bear was in there. He saw the tracks the day before. He was looking for a record. Not food. I don't care if you crawl into a den if you are looking for food.


+1..........

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## Ted

Yes, he was wrong IMO, and I wish the bear would've ripped his face off!

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## klickitat

Hmmm..............

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## LowKey

If he was there in the morning and only waited 5 hours that's not very long. I've never observed bear in the wild. If they go out foraging, when during the day do they normally do that?
We have one black bear here on State Forest property. She's usually seen during the middle hours of the day. Lots of people around here though. Don't know if that's typical.
(actually there must be two as she had a couple cubs last year and they had to put up huge orange signs on the trailheads not to chase the mother bear with video cameras. LOL.)

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## Justin Case

> This from MtnMan's posted link:
> 
> This was apparently the day AFTER he tracked it to the den...and after he saw the 8" paw prints and new it was in record territory. Paraphrased but his words.
> 
> He didn't know the bear was in there. He saw the tracks the day before. He was looking for a record. Not food. I don't care if you crawl into a den if you are looking for food. I also can't care much as his actions were legal, he harvested a bear in legal hunting season by whatever legal means, but was his reasoning good? <shrug> I wouldn't have done it that way. But that's my opinion.





> +1..........


+2



> Yes, he was wrong IMO, and I wish the bear would've ripped his face off!


Me too Ted,,,,

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## wildWoman

It seems unethical to me because I don't see how you place a good, clean shot at an animal inside its den. 
For me, a key component of ethical hunting is to minimize suffering to the animal. If an animal needs to be killed (and to me, wanting a rug or mount is not a need), it should be done clean and fast.

If this guy always hunts his meat and figured a 700lb blackie would fill his food needs and the bear wasn't moving around or curled up so that he could get a clear shot at it, then I don't have a problem with it.

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## LowKey

sounds like it was looking at him if he could see its nose, and that it was snarling and putting its ears back.

not enough story. Or just enough for a liberal cause. I don't trust newspapers much anymore.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> I have a gun,,,  and ,  No, I wouldn't,,  but then I only hunt if i am hungry,  I am just not into killing things for the fun of it,  its not fun for me,   and I dont think it was even a little bit "sportsmanlike" to shoot this animal *as it slept in its den*, just as its not "sportsmanlike" to spotlight deer. shooting ducks before sunrise,  etc etc,,





> I went in about 6 feet, and I could just see the tip of his nose without a flashlight, Kendall said. He was growling and snapping his jaws at me.
> 
> Kendall said that after he shined his flashlight on the bear, the bear laid back its ears.
> 
> A buddy told me when they lay back their ears theyre usually going to charge, so I decided I better shoot while I have the chance, said Kendall, who was carrying a .45-70 caliber lever-action rifle.


Doesn't sound like it was "sleeping" to me........It probably knew the hunter was there the whole time. Bears can smell things at a Loooooong ways off. Better noses than a bloodhound.

You probably wouldn't like the guys that "Live catch" Wild hogs either. They use dogs to catch them and sell the live animals to "Game Ranches", so that they have the best available animals for the hunters to hunt. Some guy with enough money pays for a hunt on a game ranch which has all these animals running around on the property, All applicable laws are observed as well.... Nothing Illegal about it. Everything is on the "Up and up". These big hunters just don't have the time to put in scouting, and everything that goes into it. All laws are observed, the Hunter gets his trophy, the game ranch gets paid, money goes into the economy, the guys who caught it to begin with are able to feed and clothe their families. Everyone is happy.... except for people that think it is morally reprehensible to do this. Yet it is the most expensive type of hunting anyone can do.

I said it before and I'll say it again.... if it weren't for the fact that this bear was of "Trophy" Class, we most likely would never have heard anything at all about it.

Look, WHEN I hunt, I hunt for one reason...meat... no other reason for me to hunt. It is a type of meat that it is ILLEGAL to buy in most places. Yet My Mom made some of the best food you could ever taste.... from wild animals. Not farm raised beef,chicken, pork, or other types.

Before you condemn this guy any further..... Stop eating beef,chicken,pork, or Turkey...or lots of fish/seafood too. They are all raised on farms and have LESS chance than this bear did. WAY LESS of a chance. From the day they are born/hatched they are destined for YOUR dinner table. Their Whole existence is to provide sustenance for us.... never allowed to run wild or be free. At least this bear had a chance.

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## LowKey

I have absolutely no problem with game ranches. As you said, it puts a lot of food on a lot of people's plates, if not the hunter (and someone gets the meat even if the hunter keeps only the stuffed head mount for his wall. I doubt it goes to waste.)

It's like raising pheasant for shoots. You're going to kill them and eat them anyway. If you release them for shoots, some do actually get away.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> I have absolutely no problem with game ranches. As you said, it puts a lot of food on a lot of people's plates, if not the hunter (and someone gets the meat even if the hunter keeps only the stuffed head mount for his wall. I doubt it goes to waste.)
> 
> It's like raising pheasant for shoots. You're going to kill them and eat them anyway. If you release them for shoots, some do actually get away.


You're right. Most people that are offended will jump on that paragraph to pick to pieces too.... and ignore the last paragraph altogether. When, in fact, it is the most important paragraph. 

People are offended that this bear was killed this way...defenseless. Yet it is NOTHING that a cow,pig or chicken is even MORE defenseless than that bear was, when they are slaughtered. But they eat it anyways, no matter if they buy it from the store or raise it themselves. That seems just a wee bit hypocritical to me.

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## BENESSE

Klick, now you _know_ the guy wasn't there 'cause he was hungry. Read the articles. ALL of them.
He was there 'cause he got to salivatin' over them big paw prints he came across so he scrambled around to get permits, etc. so he could legally do the deed pronto.

As to the other sentiments in general:
If I were hungry and there was no other way, yeah, I'd crawl into the bear's den, raid SD's tuna stash or even god forbid, knock on kyrat's door. 
None of that happened here, and that's not what were debating. Let's stick to the facts, or short of that, just agree that it's a sticky, sensitive subject (not a legal one) and no one's gonna sway anyone from what they already believe.
What else is new and different?

----------


## BENESSE

> At least this bear had a chance.


What chance was that? He was IN his den, minding his own business, and in crawls the dickweed with his gun.
What's a bear to do, put his paws up and raise a white flag?
Sorry Poco, I just can't wrap my mind around this one.

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## klickitat

I threw some stuff in there because I admire his courage for being willing to go in the den. MOST people are too afraid to do anything like that.

Now when it comes to hunting and fishing. I hunt where the deer and elk sleep and eat and have shot many while they are bedded down and at least one that was asleep. When I fish for salmon I used a boat pole, 30# test braided line and I towed them in. I stood right over the 3' wide channel that they were held up in and flossed their teeth. 

I once tracked a deer down that I seen a coyote hamstring in the deep snow and killed it for my family. Not only was it unfair and unsporting it deprived the coyote family a weeks worth of meals.  I found a coyote den one time and set up 3 dozen snares around the area and wiped the entire family out.  I am not about being fair or right, I am all about getting the job done.

This is a survival forum and if you expect to play by some sort of rules, then good luck.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Benesse Quite honestly The majority of hunters who hunt are NOT hungry, they hunt for many other reasons. The ones that hunt because of Hunger are usually called poachers. Can't afford all the stuff that goes into hunting. Instead of money for a license, they buy shoes or clothes, or pay bills. At least the ones that hunted to fill their bellies that I have known. 

No most Legal hunters I have known weren't hunting to feed themselves, although they eat what they kill. Some buy brand new vehicles, take nice vacations, own nice things.... maybe not the best, but still nice. Groceries are not why most people hunt. Their reasons are as myriad as the people who hunt. Ted Neugent is a BIG hunter.... do you think he's doing it to put food on his table? Well he does, but not because he needs to.

Funny thing is that the ones that hunt for food around here do it illegally. Just as hunting in days of old was reserved for nobility, so is it the case today. The really poor then were peasants who were not allowed to hunt. Today the poor can't afford it either... not legally anyways. So the case about "doing it for food" should really be reserved for the "Last frontiers". Places like Alaska, some parts of The Lower 48, and Canada, in North America anyways. No one else really "Needs" to hunt. But if hunting were stopped, many species of animals would starve... Game and non-game animals both. Everyone else is a "Sport hunter".  Like it or not, there are VERY few "Subsistence hunters", people who do it to feed themselves. As mentioned those are mostly in Alaska and Canada.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> What chance was that? He was IN his den, minding his own business, and in crawls the dickweed with his gun.
> What's a bear to do, put his paws up and raise a white flag?
> Sorry Poco, I just can't wrap my mind around this one.


What chance does a cow have?  A Chicken? That bear had a better life than the bacon you have in the morning.

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## BENESSE

> This is a survival forum and if you expect to play by some sort of rules, then good luck.


Well I _was_, but now that you mentioned it, maybe I'll reconsider...with mods' blessings of course.  :Winkiss:

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## BENESSE

> What chance does a cow have?  A Chicken? That bear had a better life than the bacon you have in the morning.


I'm a vegetarian. (OMG!!!...guards, where are the damn guards?!#@)

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## Beans

> There was nothing in the article that said he hunted just for trophy. He might have been hunting for food and happened upon the tracks of what turned out to be a trophy sized animal. There's nothing in the article that says he wasn't trophy hunting either. 
> 
> Whether you sit in a blind and call in animals/waterfowl or sit in a tree or bait a hook or crawl in the den if you are trying to get food it's all good in my book. When I go squirrel hunting *I sit in the woods and look nuts*. Is that fair?


Is that just limited to only sitting in the woods?????   :tabletalk:

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> I'm a vegetarian. (OMG!!!...guards, where are the damn guards?!#@)


Oops! :sweatingbullets:  LOL Guess that one fell on deaf ears! OK You have a point then, as you don't eat meat. But ANYONE that eats meat really can't complain as the bear lived a better life than the meat they eat can't live as free as the bear. And they die a MORE confined death than the bear did. The bear still could have maneuvered in the Den better than that man, and faster too. Personally I think it was more dangerous for the hunter in the Den, than outside the Den.....

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## Rick

I'm goin' to bed. Don't no one come in there with a gun. This bear will shoot back.

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## BENESSE

Poco, I guess we'll just have to let the sleeping bears lie (or not) and move on. It is what it is, my friend.

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## DOGMAN

I'd say the guy is  a dedicated, determined, serious hunter....

first, he found a record class bear without dogs or baiting...then he was able to track and stalk it all the way back to its den....I know very few people that have those skills

then he had the patience to wait 5 hours for it to come out....very few people I know are tough, patient or determined enough to sit-out in the cold, winter of the Rocky Mountains for 5 hours staring at one-spot!

Then finally after waiting all that time, he realized the bear wasn't coming out, so he crawled and wiggled into the tight, cramped confines of the giant bruins den and finished the job.  THats pretty damned hardcore.

I understand the arguments people are making...however, bear hunting is legal, and it was in-season. Obvioulsy the bear wasn't hibernating...because he was out walking around leaving tracks.  He was in his pre-denning phase and preparing to hibernate, but he was still getting out and rambling around a-bit.  I think people would be shocked at how most of the Black bears are hunted and killed in the USA....in many states its common practice to either lure them in with "bait-stations" (dumping doughnuts and other concoctions in the same spot- week after week in the woods at the same spot to get bears to hang-around that area)....if not baited, they are run by hounds, chased up a tree- then shot out of the tree!....Literally thousands of black bears are shot every year using those techniques.
Tracking, stalking, waiting several hours and then crawling into a bear's hide-out is by far more sporting in my opinion then creating a doughnut dump, or shooting a bear out of a tree.

I love bears, and am inclined to even say I wish bear hunting was banned.  I think bait-stations and shooting treed bears is ethically questionable. However, crawling into a friggin tiny- cave after a bear you know is probably one of the biggest ones ever to live in Colorado is far from being cowardly or unsportsman-like.  I applaud the guy....

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## NCO

+1 DOGMAN

Also about the baiting.. It is illegal here by the way..

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## Camp10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jGr3jNvT3s

How many poor little deer or young elk do you suppose a 700 pound monster bear like that could have killed in its life?  I'm sure it gave all the fawns hiding in the grass waiting for their mothers to protect them a fair chase and didnt kill any while they slept!  

This whole notion that hunting can only be okay if the hunter is starving is so PC and thoughtless.  IS it also wrong to have any canned or dry food stored up at home?  Do you have to wait until you dont know if you can go another step before its ethical to go to the grocery store?  

Hunting is also about management.  Sometimes (this might hurt some people that feel instead of think) animals need to be killed for the protection of their own or other species and if they never make it into a pot it is still important.  

The coyotes here in Maine have destroyed our rabbit population.  They kill many deer and grouse as well.  While it might seem arrogant for humans to decide what animals are more important, it will hit a saturation point soon where the coyotes will also suffer and die from lack of food.  The job of the biologists are to find the happy medium where all species can survive with the food availible.  This means that some animals including predators needs to be removed in order to keep the rest healthy.  A 700 pound bear eats lots and lots of food.  Getting it out of the area will do quite a bit of good for younger bears and for the other animals that a bear would feed on.

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## Wood Duck

I don't care much for Trophy Hunters, they waste a lot of meat. No ethics in this type of hunting. Hunting is not a sport to me but it is a way for me to gather food for myself and my family. Guess it depends on how you grew up.

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## randyt

> What chance does a cow have?  A Chicken? That bear had a better life than the bacon you have in the morning.


or how about veal or lamb

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## randyt

a few things come to mind. 700 pounds!!!!! that's a bbbbig bbbblack bbbbbear.
as far as fair goes, there is nothing fair about life and death. it never will be.
if crawling in a den with a bear isn't ethical either is trapping, shooting a animal while it eats, actually shooting a animal only while in active pursuit would seem like the only ethical way.

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## Mtnman Mike

This has turned out better than I thought the discussion might.

I don't really like to argue so I won't pick a certain post and try to refute it.
But my thoughts are that the guy who killed the bear was Not hunting the bear for meat.   He was hunting it for a trophy.  
After he saw the large  bear pawprints in the snow he went to town to get a license then tracked - followed the bear tracks to the den.

After he got tired of waiting 5 hours he went into the den saw the bear awake, got scared and then killed the bear.

If I don't have it perfectly straight then someone can correct my version.
But I hate waste.    I very much doubt this guy used any of the bear meat for food.   He will very possibly have the bear taken to a taxidermist to show off over the coming years.
To "prove" what a great white hunter he is.

I have worked in a slaughterhouse and seen cattle killed, then the bloody process until they are cut up and sold.
I have seen a cow lay down with its eyes bulging out for it knew that it was going to be killed.   I saw the worker keep prodding that cow to make it go to its death.

I still ate meat, I know the difference between raising meat for food and  going out into the wild to hunt for food.
The guy / "hunter"  did not hunt this bear for food but for a Trophy, possibly even a Record breaking prize.

People can call me PC or whatever.  I cannot be classified and if any really knew me then they would know if I am a sissy if I don't want to kill something for the sport of it or to help Manage the wild.

Anyway, people can have their own opinions.   Maybe it is the way people are raised with different ideas.   
Seems like some have more compassion for animals and also humans than others do.
Some while they will hunt and kill for food, if and when necessary,  do so reluctantly.    
Did this great "hunter" say I am sorry for taking your life Brother Bear or did he just kill the bear for Sport and for the Prize?

Here is a relevant short verse written by a good writer,  not me.   This writer can say who he is if he wishes, I will not embarrass him but I do want to quote this:    
"This man shares his woods with a bear.
The bear shares his woods with the man.
Between the two of them they worked it out."

All I wish to say except that if people cannot Live with wild animals, in peace, unless it is necessary to take them for food,  are they able to live with humans?

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## Rick

I know squat about bear hunting but the question I've had all along and no one has touched on it, is this. How tender is the meat on a 700 pound black bear? I'd have to assume it's an old(er) bear to weigh that much. If the guy had hunted bear for 25 years he would have known what he was looking at from the print and apparently did. So would meat from this bear be worth cooking (assuming that's not all you had)?

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## Justin Case

He could have taken Pictures of it to prove he "Tracked" it,,   Sorry,  but in my opinion, he should not have killed it unless he was hungry and "needed" to,,  But now,  He has a 700 pound penis to stand in the corner of his den to show all his buddies,,,,

btw,  since he didn't have a license in the first place, i would bet he just stumbled onto the bear den,,   I doubt he "tracked and stalked" anything.

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## NightShade

Be worth cooking if you like bear meat!  I don't mind it once in awhile... certainly don't enjoy enough to hunt bear though.... that's alot of meat from just one animal!

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## BENESSE

+1 Mtnman Mike.
It helps reading the articles and really _processing_ what they say.
Ultimately, people are gonna believe what they want to believe and that's that.

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## DOGMAN

Just a little background on "true" trophy hunting....Many people confuse trophy hunters as people that just luck into a large animal and then shoot it....But, in the purest sense of the phrase...real trophy hunters are often very ethical and use great restraint and pass on many, many animals.  So, often trophy hunters dont buy licenses for the species they are hunting...until they find that one true trophy.  Because they know the odds are against them ever finding a record book animal- so they dont spend the money, until they find the right crittter.

A true trophy animal is a record-book animal. Less than 5% of any species reaches record book status. So, that means- 95% of animals out there aren't trophies.....Many trophy hunters will hunt years for a record book animal and vow to not shoot another animal of that particualr species until they get the record book one.  Normally, trophy class critters dont hang out near roads or easily accessible places, they also didn't get that old and big by being dumb and being spotted by every yahoo with a rifle....so, there is no rush to kill the trophy for the truly skilled tracker, and hunter.  I know a guy that found a trophy class rams and went back and killed it 6 months later!....

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## Rick

> Be worth cooking if you like bear meat!


As I said I know nothing about the subject but would it? It seems to me that an animal that had been around long enough to attain that kind of weight would be a tough animal. If you were looking for meat wouldn't you pass him up and go for something younger/smaller/more tender?

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> As I said I know nothing about the subject but would it? It seems to me that an animal that had been around long enough to attain that kind of weight would be a tough animal. If you were looking for meat wouldn't you pass him up and go for something younger/smaller/more tender?


Well to be honest I wouldn't know. I've only ate Bear meat once, when I was a kid.... but it was better than any Beef Steak I have ever had. It was cooked on a grill. Then it was illegal to kill any bear.... unless it was wrecking Bee-yards, which this one was doing. Then you had to sit at the Bee-yard WITH a Game Warden,  and wait until the offender showed up. This could take weeks, due to the number of Bee-yards back then. Between just 3 uncles who kept Bees they had over 50 Bee yards in 2 counties near my home (Plus other counties in Ga. and some down in Florida, for Orange blossom honey). That was just in my family, that didn't count all the other people who also kept Bees. That one bear was responsible for wrecking about a dozen or so Bee-yards. Don't know the age or size of that bear.... I just remember that it was some of the BEST meat I have ever had. Better than Beef to me.

+1 to DOGMAN on the Trophy hunters I have known. The amount of other animals they have let pass is kind of incredible. They didn't meet their criteria so were not taken. (This being Deer Hunters, who knew a "Trophy sized Buck" was in the area) Some have waited in the same area for years waiting for that 1 Buck to come into range. They always had that 1 tag unfilled each year..... until "THAT Day" came. Sometimes they were in competition with other "Trophy Hunters" as well. "Trophy class" animals don't get that way by sheer luck. "Trophy class" animals tend to get that way because they are smarter, stronger, faster, and better all around critters.

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## BENESSE

> "Trophy class" animals don't get that way by sheer luck. "Trophy class" animals tend to get that way because they are smarter, stronger, faster, and better all around critters.


There goes Darwin's Survival Of The Fittest theory, down the crapper. 
It just stupefies me to want to kill an animal _especially_ because it's smarter, stronger faster, and better all around. To think..._what a magnificent creature_...I wanna to kill it! What kind of place in a person's mind and soul does that come from?

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## Justin Case

> There goes Darwin's Survival Of The Fittest theory, down the crapper. 
> It just stupefies me to want to kill an animal _especially_ because it's smarter, stronger faster, and better all around. To think..._what a magnificent creature_...I wanna to kill it! What kind of place in a person's mind and soul does that come from?


Well Said !  :Smile:

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## Batch

I spend $105 a year for a sportsmen's gold license. $275 gator tags. $65 for additional tags. I pay $50 per decal for off road vehicles. All of that goes toward management of the lands. 

Lots of people want to impose their own morality on the lives of others. I know some bass fisherman who think using live bait is wrong. So THEY should not use live bait.

If the biologist that is assigned to recommend management rules says its a legal method then it is legal. All those fees I pay go toward conservation efforts. 

I hunt for recreation. If I needed to hunt for food I would have to poach. The rules are stacked way too much in favor of the animals. I choose good eating animals so I guess I am a recreational meat hunter. 

I wouldn't have shot that bear. But, I got no criticism for a guy who appears to have followed all applicable rules.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> There goes Darwin's Survival Of The Fittest theory, down the crapper. 
> It just stupefies me to want to kill an animal _especially_ because it's smarter, stronger faster, and better all around. To think..._what a magnificent creature_...I wanna to kill it! What kind of place in a person's mind and soul does that come from?


Hmmm... kind of like the chickens, cows, and pigs, etc that we eat every day.... Interesting analogy. You see the BEST of those species are where the "Breeding stock" comes from. Good point.... except when they have reached the end of their usefulness, they too are sent to slaughter.

I just find it extremely odd that such different perceptions can be applied to domestic and wild animals. It's OK for one, but not the other. :gagged: 

It is to me at least as clear of an example of double standards as can be exhibited. This is OK/Good for this_____ but not this_____.
Oh BTW My vote is the only one in the undecided category. I can see valid points on both sides, yet have been arguing in favor of the guy almost all along. I wouldn't do what he did for my own various reasons, of which there are several, yet see nothing actually wrong with what was done. All laws were in fact followed.

I just thought I would reveal where my vote actually fell, as I am done with this argument/Debate. I cannot fathom how it is OK for that and worse to be done to "Domesticated" animals. Yet for a wild animal it is an entirely different set of standards. The Hypocrisy is astounding. Domestic Chickens are grabbed in the wee hours of the morning when they are shipped to the slaughterhouse, while they are on the roost. The chicken house is lit with nothing but red lights during this process so as to NOT disturb the sleeping chickens. Chickens cannot defend themselves near as well as that bear either. Yet it is OK for one but not the other. Pick any meat you eat and the story is pretty much as bad as that.... just different circumstances. It really makes me wonder how many have ever seen the total process of the life cycle of the animals we eat every day. Or ever been on a farm where people raise the animals they slaughter to put on their own table. I've seen it done, I've seen members of my family go out and get the best chicken in the coop because company was coming. The neck wrung, the carcass dressed out and cooked. 

If you've ever watched "Ole Yeller" you have seen the free range hogs... that were for all intents and purposes "Wild" or Feral. There is not one bit of difference between that and hunting today.... except that there are more laws involved, "Rules, standards, and Ethics". Meat is meat. If you eat it it is not so pretty and ethical in any sense of the word. You go out, find the desired animal, kill it, clean it, and eat it. Fishermen do the same thing with "Trophy" catches..... but they are only fish after all.

American Indians respected ALL life. Everything that grew and lived sacrificed it's life so that we could live. Plants, animals, fish all were equally appreciated.... They ALL died so we could live. Just my opinion, but the further removed we become from the Earth, the more artificial our attitude towards all living things become..... Oh it's just a tomato, soybean, rabbit, chicken, deer, bear.... Yet they all live and died so that we can live. The Great beasts were honored with stories of their existence.... Trophy Hunters are able to do this too with the animals PRESENCE as well. In a sense these animals are immortalized. Yet no one sees this aspect. 

Someone will eat that meat. It might be a Nursing Home, a homeless shelter, school, or hospital, or the hunter, his friends and family.... but someone will eat it I am fairly certain. The ONLY thing used to determine the "Trophy status" of a bear is the dried skull, and it's (the Bears) measurements. They have the weight, so no need to save the meat to waste it, it can be harvested and used. Someone please tell me that I am not the only one to see the double standard here between "Domestic" and "Wild" animals. This is why I have argued so long in defense of that hunter. OK to grab a sleeping chicken to slaughter, but heaven forbid the same is done with a bear that was NOT asleep.

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## randyt

Hey Poco, 

I see the double standard but I take it a step farther and apply it to plants too. Life is life and a plant is alive too, pretty crazy eh.

I grew up on a farm and we ate goat, mutton, beef, chicken, pork and wild game. Our stock was treated better than the stock on large farms but in the end dead is dead.
I blame it all on walt disney. LOL

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## BENESSE

> I just find it extremely odd that such different perceptions can be applied to domestic and wild animals. *It's OK for one, but not the other.*
> OK to grab a sleeping chicken to slaughter, but heaven forbid the same is done with a bear that was NOT asleep.


No, it's not OK, at least not by _me_!!! That's exactly why I became a vegetarian 15 years ago.
I wouldn't feel right about engaging in this type of discussion if I made excuses for my double standard.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> Hey Poco, 
> 
> I see the double standard but I take it a step farther and apply it to plants too. Life is life and a plant is alive too, pretty crazy eh.
> 
> I grew up on a farm and we ate goat, mutton, beef, chicken, pork and wild game. Our stock was treated better than the stock on large farms but in the end dead is dead.
> I blame it all on walt disney. LOL


I totally agree. If it weren't for me eating things that once lived (Turnips or turtles makes no difference) I would be dead. All are respected.... soybeans to sheep, Dill or duck, beet or bear, greens or goose..... all have lived and given up their existence so that I may continue mine. No Randy not crazy, not at all. Just respectful.

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## klickitat

This is an issue I have. If you elevate animals to the same level as humans then you devalue the life of your fellow man. This is the root of eugenics, euthanasia and abortion.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> No, it's not OK, at least not by _me_!!! That's exactly why I became a vegetarian 15 years ago.
> I wouldn't feel right about engaging in this type of discussion if I made excuses for my double standard.


 B, you know that you and I disagree on the meat eating, and hunting stuff, but I have to say that I respect you for standing by your beliefs. I think you are the only one in this thread, that has a reason for criticizing this guy. I don't know that I agree with that reason....but I admit that you have one! LOL

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## randyt

> This is an issue I have. If you elevate animals to the same level as humans then you devalue the life of your fellow man. This is the root of eugenics, euthanasia and abortion.


I agree, that's why I blame it on walt disney.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I agree, that's why I blame it on walt disney.


 Bambi burgers........MMmmmmm. :Shifty:

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

I used to hunt. I quit when I shot a 4 point buck and couldn't find it. I felt if I was incapable of bringing home what I killed, then I shouldn't hunt. I found that deer later when the vultures were circling, and the meat was no longer edible. It had ran away and circled back almost on it's own trail, laid down,hid and died. The blood trail had ended not long after it had run. The brush was so thick I couldn't follow it and gave up thinking it was only wounded and would recover. It didn't, and I no longer hunt. However if I have to I will take a shot at another animal to eat and make every effort I can to retrieve it. But only if I have to. Just my opinion but tracking has to be the hardest thing to learn about Hunting. That was the only animal I ever hunted that I couldn't find, after I had killed it. THAT  is why I don't hunt now. Not the Laws or Ethics of anyone else, just my own.

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## randyt

that's all part of the cycle, nothing goes to waste in nature. the vultures have to live too. in my opinion their life is just as important as the next animal. something would have made use of that animal.

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## Rick

> This is the root of eugenics, euthanasia and abortion.


I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all on that. I watched my dad die a slow, long, agonizing death from cancer. I assure you if I could have helped him and gotten away with it I would have. He wanted to go on his terms and in the end he had to go on legal terms. Not everyone will agree with me and that's fine but defining your demise with dignity has its place. And it has nothing to do with elevating animals anywhere. It has to do with the deep abiding love and respect I had for a great man and the desire to end long standing suffering that simply didn't need to happen when the outcome was quite apparent......end rant.

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## DOGMAN

> There goes Darwin's Survival Of The Fittest theory, down the crapper.



Not at all....the bear has reached the pinnacle of its maturity when its become record- class.  After reaching the pinnacle- its most likely all down hill from there!  When an animal is of this catagory its pretty much about to be past its breeding prime...this animal undoubtably spread its seed for many years before meeting this hunter

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## BENESSE

Why didn't _I_ think of that?!

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## Rick

You probably could think too well perched way up there on your soap box.  :Innocent:

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## 2dumb2kwit

> You probably could think too well perched way up there on your soap box.


 I was gonna guess.....'cuz she's a girl. 
(Snicker, snicker.)

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## aflineman

For a trophy, no. If it was one that was killing my or my friend's livestock, maybe. It would have to be doing one heck of a lot of damage (and be one heck of a lot smarter than the ones around here) before I would even consider killing one asleep in it's den.

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## aflineman

> I used to hunt. I quit when I shot a 4 point buck and couldn't find it. I felt if I was incapable of bringing home what I killed, then I shouldn't hunt. I found that deer later when the vultures were circling, and the meat was no longer edible. It had ran away and circled back almost on it's own trail, laid down,hid and died. The blood trail had ended not long after it had run. The brush was so thick I couldn't follow it and gave up thinking it was only wounded and would recover. It didn't, and I no longer hunt. However if I have to I will take a shot at another animal to eat and make every effort I can to retrieve it. But only if I have to. Just my opinion but tracking has to be the hardest thing to learn about Hunting. That was the only animal I ever hunted that I couldn't find, after I had killed it. THAT  is why I don't hunt now. Not the Laws or Ethics of anyone else, just my own.


I can easily respect that.

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## BENESSE

> You probably could think too well perched way up there on your soap box.


Ever since I slipped off of my soap box and landed on my a$$, I learned to just stay put and work from there. That's where I be posting from.
Now, any time people feel challenged in their belief, instead of facing it head on, _some_ (you know who you are, and so do I) like to dance around and deflect. Answer questions that weren't asked, and say things just to hear themselves talk. Well, fine...whatever floats your boat is OK with me. But let's not kid ourselves. Just cause I cant _see_ you doesn't mean I'm not on to you.
Yeah, you too 2D, and you know it! (who loves you baby?)

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## Rick

Would you look at that?! I said soap box. I meant pedestal. A thousand pardons.

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## BENESSE

Unh huh...
Compliments to Mrs. Rick...well done, madam, well done!!!

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## aflineman

> Hmmm... kind of like the chickens, cows, and pigs, etc that we eat every day.... Interesting analogy. You see the BEST of those species are where the "Breeding stock" comes from. Good point.... except when they have reached the end of their usefulness, they too are sent to slaughter.
> 
> I just find it extremely odd that such different perceptions can be applied to domestic and wild animals. It's OK for one, but not the other.
> 
> It is to me at least as clear of an example of double standards as can be exhibited. This is OK/Good for this_____ but not this_____.
> Oh BTW My vote is the only one in the undecided category. I can see valid points on both sides, yet have been arguing in favor of the guy almost all along. I wouldn't do what he did for my own various reasons, of which there are several, yet see nothing actually wrong with what was done. All laws were in fact followed.
> 
> I just thought I would reveal where my vote actually fell, as I am done with this argument/Debate. I cannot fathom how it is OK for that and worse to be done to "Domesticated" animals. Yet for a wild animal it is an entirely different set of standards. The Hypocrisy is astounding. Domestic Chickens are grabbed in the wee hours of the morning when they are shipped to the slaughterhouse, while they are on the roost. The chicken house is lit with nothing but red lights during this process so as to NOT disturb the sleeping chickens. Chickens cannot defend themselves near as well as that bear either. Yet it is OK for one but not the other. Pick any meat you eat and the story is pretty much as bad as that.... just different circumstances. It really makes me wonder how many have ever seen the total process of the life cycle of the animals we eat every day. Or ever been on a farm where people raise the animals they slaughter to put on their own table. I've seen it done, I've seen members of my family go out and get the best chicken in the coop because company was coming. The neck wrung, the carcass dressed out and cooked. 
> 
> ...


Interesting point. I have killed many an animal on the farm, and I do respect and thank them for giving their lives for my sustenance. Maybe it is because I don't kill bears for food (although I eat the ones that I have killed). Mainly kill them when they are repeatedly killing livestock close to the house. Other than that, on the norm I leave them alone.

----------


## klkak

> "There are certainly ethical standards within the hunting community: Don't shoot ducks on a pond. Don't shoot turkeys on a roost. Don't shoot bears in a den.


Dang all this time I thought I was an ethical hunter!

I hunt for meat and I kill it where I find it.

BTW, the deer I shot the other day was a doe.

----------


## randyt

> Would you look at that?! I said soap box. I meant pedestal. a thousand pardons.



Freudian slip ??? perhaps LoL

----------


## Camp10

> Ever since I slipped off of my soap box and landed on my a$$, I learned to just stay put and work from there. That's where I be posting from.
> Now, any time people feel challenged in their belief, instead of facing it head on, _some_ (you know who you are, and so do I) like to dance around and deflect. Answer questions that weren't asked, and say things just to hear themselves talk. Well, fine...whatever floats your boat is OK with me. But let's not kid ourselves. Just cause I cant _see_ you doesn't mean I'm not on to you.
> Yeah, you too 2D, and you know it! (who loves you baby?)



With all do respect, Presenting ideas and facts about any position while trying to remain neutral is not the same as dancing around a persons beliefs. You've done it plenty of times in the gun threads.. I'm not even sure who you are refering to with this issue, most on both sides have been quite clear where they stand.  Mike (the OP) might be the exception but he was clear that he wanted to know what we thought.

I've never been a good dancer...I do like to give my reasons for why I believe what I do and most posters on one side of this has been giving their reasons and facts about hunting and why it is ethical and the other side is talking about 700 pound penis'.  

Just in case your not clear with my beliefs...This guy did nothing wrong and in fact, probably did more good for the younger bears, the fawns that will be born (and not eaten by this giant) in the spring and even the stores in that area that rely on hunters and hunting.  If you've ever camped,hiked or had a picnic at a state park or any state owned public land, you've probably benefited from hunters $$....your welcome!

----------


## BENESSE

> If you've ever camped,hiked or had a picnic at a state park or any state owned public land, you've probably benefited from hunters $$....your welcome!


Yes I did, just this past summer. Yellowstone & Custer.
And I paid too, just to get in. You gotta pay to play. Don't mind at all, worth every penny.

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## Justin Case

In all honesty, I am quite surprised by the poll results,    Just sayin  :Smile:

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## BENESSE

Actually, I am too. 
I thought I'd be in the minority and it certainly _felt_ that way.

----------


## Justin Case

a little more ,




> THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> *
> GRAND JUNCTION — Colorado wildlife managers say they’re discussing whether to change hunting rules after a man reported shooting and killing a large black bear in its den.*
> 
> Division of Wildlife spokesman Randy Hampton tells the Grand Junction Daily Sentinel the hunter didn’t break any rules. Hampton says the incident does raise “ethical issues.”
> 
> The hunter, Richard Kendall of Craig, defends his decision. He says he waited outside the northwest Colorado den for five hours, hoping the bear would emerge, before crawling about 6 feet into it and seeing the bear.
> 
> The Sentinel reports the bear weighed 703 pounds, about 50 percent more than most black bears.
> ...

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## Justin Case

> Actually, I am too. 
> I thought I'd be in the minority and it certainly _felt_ that way.


Nope,  Firmly in the Majority  :Wink:

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## cm79

Not sure how to answer,In Northren WI we use bait stations and dogs those are the means of hunting bear here.Seems like tracking a bear to its den is all right to me.I don't think it any more ethical to build a fire and "smoke a bear out" and put a bullet in it only 10 feet from where it was sleeping.

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## DOGMAN

> Dang all this time I thought I was an ethical hunter!
> 
> I hunt for meat and I kill it where I find it.
> 
> BTW, the deer I shot the other day was a doe.


yeah, I thought, that don't shoot ducks on a pond comment was funny as well...I've shot alot of ducks on ponds...the elk i killed this year was a nice fat cow...it seems the more connected to your food you are- the less "ethical" you are!  Its much more ethical to export your exploitation of animals and let someone else kill your food and wrap it up in sell it to you then it is to get your hands dirty...

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## BENESSE

> yeah, I thought, that don't shoot ducks on a pond comment was funny as well...I've shot alot of ducks on ponds...the elk i killed this year was a nice fat cow...it seems the more connected to your food you are- the less "ethical" you are! * Its much more ethical to export your exploitation of animals and let someone else kill your food and wrap it up in sell it to you then it is to get your hands dirty*...


Says who?
People who object to shooting bears in their dens _also_ object to unethical treatment of _all_ animals even the ones solely intended for consumption. The others pipe in only when their food gets contaminated with feces and mouse droppings. Or when roach legs get discovered in their SPAM.

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## Rick

I don't know, B. My neighbor has a dog I'd like to shoot while it's sleeping or even while it's barking its danged fool head off at 11:00 at night. And I wouldn't eat it, just let it lay for the neighbor to deal with. I wouldn't consider it ethical, just profoundly satisfying.

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## BENESSE

Maybe you should off the idiot neighbor who _allows_ it to happen.
It's like blaming kids for irresponsible parenting.

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## Rick

Naaaaa. That would be to ethical.

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## BENESSE

Didn't y'all just got through tellin' me how that don't matter...and I was startin' to believe you?

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## Justin Case

Have you voiced your concerns with the dogs owner ?  Maybe they need a punch in the nose to remind them to put the dog inside at night,,,    Ya know, I never could understand why dogs that bark like that do not drive the owners crazy as well ??

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## klickitat

It's official 65.22% of the people responding to this poll have put me into a quandary.  If I was to say how I feel about these people, I will be kicked off this forum for good. If I sit back and say nothing then I look like a nut for cussing at my computer.

I guess I probably said enough.

Merry Christmas.

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## Rick

Remember, it's just an opinion.

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## Justin Case

> It's official 65.22% of the people responding to this poll have put me into a quandary.  If I was to say how I feel about these people, I will be kicked off this forum for good. If I sit back and say nothing then I look like a nut for cussing at my computer.
> 
> I guess I probably said enough.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


well if you could harbor bad feelings for people just because they do not share a certain opinion as you,  then YOU are the one who is flawed,   BTW,  The gap in the poll is slowly closing,,,  Just sayin.

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## aflineman

> It's official 65.22% of the people responding to this poll have put me into a quandary.  If I was to say how I feel about these people, I will be kicked off this forum for good. If I sit back and say nothing then I look like a nut for cussing at my computer.
> 
> I guess I probably said enough.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


Just because you don't agree with someone does not make them (or you) wrong, it just means you disagree. 
It used to drive me nuts with what some of the folks who were political opposite of me said. Then I got to thinking about it. Part of the reason I stayed in the AF and live in America is that I enjoy the freedoms we have (and defending those freedoms). One of those freedoms is to disagree. Besides, the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone agreed with my point of view.  :Smile: 
I still think that shooting a bear in it's den is NOT something that I would normally do (just not how I was raised). I also realize that some folks don't agree with that. (And bring up some VERY valid points as to why they feel that way). It does not really change my mind about what I would do, but it does help me to understand and appreciate why someone would chose to hunt a bear in it's den.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> It's official 65.22% of the people responding to this poll have put me into a quandary.  If I was to say how I feel about these people, I will be kicked off this forum for good. If I sit back and say nothing then I look like a nut for cussing at my computer.
> 
> I guess I probably said enough.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


LOL How do you think I feel? I can see points on both sides of this, as well as some contradictions. Straddling the fence can "get your panties in a wad" too!

Sure Hope you have a Merry Christmas!

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## 2dumb2kwit

> *well if you could harbor bad feelings for people just because they do not share a certain opinion as you,  then YOU are the one who is flawed,*   BTW,  The gap in the poll is slowly closing,,,  Just sayin.


 Nah...I disagree. Sometimes I want to choke you and just shake you by the collar, because of your thoughts being so different than mine......but that doesn't mean that I don't like you. Heck, I don't want any real harm to come to you, even if you are a pig headed, stubborn, wrong most of the time, pain in my.....

....sorry, I kinda strayed off topic. LOL :hugs:

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## BENESSE

> Nah...I disagree. Sometimes I want to choke you and just shake you by the collar, because of your thoughts being so different than mine......but that doesn't mean that I don't like you. Heck, I don't want any real harm to come to you, even if you are a pig headed, stubborn, wrong most of the time, pain in my.....


...especially that too. 
But the fact I'm not married to you...PRICELESS!
You make me appreciate what I have and come back for what I don't. 
I LOVE _all_ of you knuckleheads even if you don't love me back.
Merry Christmas!

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## 2dumb2kwit

> ...especially that too. 
> But the fact I'm not married to you...PRICELESS!
> You make me appreciate what I have and come back for what I don't. 
> *I LOVE all of you knuckleheads* even if you don't love me back.
> Merry Christmas!


 We love you too, B.....now, how much have you had to drink? :Big Grin:

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## BENESSE

None YET.
Well be commencing at 6pm sharp.

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## klickitat

I did not say I did like the people who disagree with me, however if I agreed with them I would be wrong too. 

It's all good.

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## 2dumb2kwit

When I first saw this thread, I couldn't help but think of this. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfN_gcjGoJo

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## BENESSE

You are SO right!!! That's EXACTLY what it's like.

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## randyt

I would be curious what the demographics are of the poll respondents? and what the demographics of the poll respondents where they grew up? I'm presuming we are all grown up but some of us may be to old to grow up. Lol

I live in a rural area and I grew up in a rural area.

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## klickitat

I grew up in a rural area and live in a rural area.

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## Justin Case

i spent time in Willard Colorado , Farmimgton New Mexico when I was young, But basically grew up in Apple Valley California,,  all VERY rural then,  I have never lived in a big city,   oops,  spent a couple of years in Kennewick Washington when i was a teenager too.

I Have Hunted Deer in Arizona and California,,,  Ducks and geese and other small game in California,

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## Camp10

> well if you could harbor bad feelings for people just because they do not share a certain opinion as you,  then YOU are the one who is flawed.





> Nah...I disagree. Sometimes I want to choke you and just shake you by the collar, because of your thoughts being so different than mine......but that doesn't mean that I don't like you. Heck, I don't want any real harm to come to you, even if you are a pig headed, stubborn, wrong most of the time, pain in my.....
> 
> ....sorry, I kinda strayed off topic. LOL


Lol!  +1 2D.   

@ JC and Benesse...I'm glad that you are here, I really enjoy your posts...most of the time!   :Whistling:  :Innocent:   Merry Christmas to you both!

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## Justin Case

> Lol!  +1 2D.   
> 
> @ JC and Benesse...I'm glad that you are here, I really enjoy your posts...most of the time!    Merry Christmas to you both!


LOL,  I haven't answered 2dumb yet because I am trying to find just the right words !    :eyepoke:  :eyepoke:   :Laugh:  :Laugh:

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## Camp10

I grew up rural and live in a very rural area.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Rural By birth and raising. Cosmopolitan when Uncle Sammy took me away from home...well some anyway. A mixture since then, but mostly Rural. I never have liked Big Cities much...except for Nashville and Dallas. Which are Kind of Rural cities now that I think of it.

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## DOGMAN

grew up in rural area, went to college in a town of 30,000 then back to a rural area....

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## DOGMAN

> Says who?
> .


that quote was sarcasm on my part....

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## aflineman

> I did not say I did like the people who disagree with me, however if I agreed with them I would be wrong too. 
> 
> It's all good.


 :Santasmile:

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## aflineman

I was born rural, and have bounced back and forth between rural and urban. I much prefer rural. Now that my family and I can choose where we live, we are in a more rural area.

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## Batch

I grew up in a world half way between urban and rural.

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## hunter63

I wouldn't "hunt" a beer in it's den.
I don't hunt bear anyway, but the whole deal seems unfair to me.

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## FVR

Guy is a chicken****.  Shoot a bear in it's den, if'n he had any gonads he would have gone in there with a Kabar or bowie and killed him like a man.

Another case of killing an animal to compensate for his little peepee.

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## Mtnman Mike

> I wouldn't "hunt" a *beer* in it's den.
> I don't hunt bear anyway, but the whole deal seems unfair to me.


Not sure if you meant BEER in its den but  I think many an American man hunts down the elusive beer in his Man Cave or den.    :Yes: 


And I won't respond to some of the more unfriendly posts in this thread.... 

Wish more would vote.   In another busy forum way over 200 have voted with a little over 80% voting that the guy was wrong to kill the bear in its den.     

I have little time since I am posting in one of Greeley, CO libraries and only have a few minutes left on this high speed computer.

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## mosquitomountainman

If he had tracked it and found it sleeping or eating on a mountainside and shot it most people would be fine with that.  I have a difficult time seeing anything wrong with killing it in it's den.  It couldn't have been in there too long if he could still find the tracks leading in so it was probably not in hibernation yet.  

The only bear I ever shot I found curled up asleep under a tree.  If I could have shot it sleeping I would have.  I was so close all I could see in the scope was fur.  It was just a big black ball of fur.  I couldn't even tell where it's head was. When I cocked the rifle (Marlin 336 in 35 Remington) the bear took off walking.  As soon as he turned broadside I shot him.  He was about 20 yards away at that time.  I was within ten feet of him when he was sleeping.

I did everything "fair" according to the books.  I was walking an old logging road in the woods (not road hunting in a vehicle) wearing the legal amount of orange with a legal rifle and specifically hunting bears.  If he was sleeping when I found him that was his problem.

I have a bit of a problem with attaching "sport" to hunting.  Taking even an animal's life is not a "sport" in my book.  There is the concept of "fair chase" but then sniping at an animal from ambush 100 or more yards away doesn't seem all that fair either.  If you want to make it fair take him bare handed or with a rock.

Game laws are (or should be) there to protect the wildlife as a resource and should be obeyed in that respect.  I hunt.  I tend to obey the law.  I take killing very seriously but at least when I eat game taken in the wild I have the satisfaction knowing that it was wild and free up until the moment I killed it.  I hunt for the challenge and for the meat.  I also have a problem with people who are against hunting but still eat meat.  In my book that's hypocritical.  

Any way you look at it the bear had a lot better chance at living than some cow confined in a pasture from the time of its birth, loaded into a truck and hauled off to the packing plant.

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## Mtnman Mike

I don't truly care  if many think the hunter was right or wrong in shooting the bear in the den.
I might do it IF I and my people were starving, needed a good bear coat etc.

But I would rather let sleeping bears lie... or something like that unless attacked.   Which I have always seen black bears run away never threaten.

And I made this poll so people could vote anonymously,   I don't want to see who votes which way.

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## crashdive123

Jeeze - are you just trying to stir up crap now?  You've got your poll - quit jabbing sticks in an open sore.

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## Rick

Is there a full moon or did the lunar eclipse just play havoc with the collective psyche?

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## Justin Case

Personally I dont think Mike was trying to stir anything up,  he was just commenting on his thread,  IMO,,,,  He cannot stay online for long periods of time so he kind of pops in and out, i doubt he has been following the forum closely enough to see whats gone on in other threads of late,,,,    He has talked to me in PM about this thread and he stated that it interested him because he had posted the same thing elsewhere with different results,

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## Rick

I'll bet he found a kinder, gentler murdering heathen on the other forums didn't he?

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## Justin Case

> I'll bet he found a kinder, gentler murdering heathen on the other forums didn't he?


I have no idea,,,  i think he said he posted it on survivalistboard,,  I am banned from there because I dont like the saints LOL

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## crashdive123

> Personally I dont think Mike was trying to stir anything up,  he was just commenting on his thread,  IMO,,,,  He cannot stay online for long periods of time so he kind of pops in and out, i doubt he has been following the forum closely enough to see whats gone on in other threads of late,,,,    He has talked to me in PM about this thread and he stated that it interested him because he had posted the same thing elsewhere with different results,


Well JIC, he edited his post about 30 minutes after I responded to his post.  Trust me - he has been reading all of the ethics in hunting posts, and his post, while maybe not intentionally, was stirring the pot.

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## Justin Case

> Well JIC, he edited his post about 30 minutes after I responded to his post.  Trust me - he has been reading all of the ethics in hunting posts, and his post, while maybe not intentionally, was stirring the pot.


ohhh,,,,  I gotcha,,  okeedokee,,,,,

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## rwc1969

> Is there a full moon or did the lunar eclipse just play havoc with the collective psyche?


 
I don't know, but it seems like this forum has taken a turn for the worse, again, since it happened. I think it's because folks have too much time on their hands and aren't getting out as much due to the cold or something myself.

Lots of topics and replies posted lately to try and get a rise out of folks. It shows how hurtful some are in their side talking and dominant submissive ways. I'm not talking about mtnman Mike, Batch, hunter63, JIC, mosqitomountainnman, aflineman, dogman, FVR, camp10 or poco either.

There's 3 or 4 very vocal members on this forum who are always looking to cause trouble and get folks panties in a bunch, you know who you are.

 :Innocent: 

As far as the bear goes I personally would have felt no joy in sneaking up on anything and killing it while it slept, but that's just me. I certainly wouldn't have felt I was more of a man for doing it and you'd never catch me bragging about it.

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## Mtnman Mike

> Personally I dont think Mike was trying to stir anything up,  he was just commenting on his thread,  IMO,,,,  He cannot stay online for long periods of time so he kind of pops in and out, i doubt he has been following the forum closely enough to see whats gone on in other threads of late,,,,    He has talked to me in PM about this thread and he stated that it interested him because he had posted the same thing elsewhere with different results,


Thanks Justin / Scott.    I do lurk mostly but after I saw the Klickatat's posts here and the one thread he made with a poll I just quickly posted something not tooo nice about shooting fawns etc.   His thread was locked so I just wanted to make one post about it.  

I deleted the "offensive" words since I regret making that post.     
I do have one or two other places to post in but I don't really feel like posting anywhere nor do I have a lot of time to read everything and post a lot.

I should probably just stick to my pic threads which quite a few in 3 different groups have mostly liked.

I might post more in this good wilderness group but  I will see how much time I do have.

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## crashdive123

Post anywhere that you like Mike.  I was just trying to maintain the civility here, and I do appreciate you editing your post.

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## Mtnman Mike

> Post anywhere that you like Mike.  I was just trying to maintain the civility here, and I do appreciate you editing your post.


Ok and thanks.

If I don't post much anymore it is not because I am mad at anyone, in this group anyway.    It is sorta ridiculous getting angry at people on the internet anyway.  

I do have another thread or two I can make but my home pc is slow with only dialup.    I can hardly even check my yahoo email with it.
I can lurk after downloading pages though.

So I am right now at one of Greeley, Coloradica's  3 nice libraries which these libraries are where I made my pic threads with their high  speed computers although I only get  a little over an hour per day at these library computers.  

later,,,  MMMike

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## hunter63

Everyone has their own ideas about what is fair and what is not.

Like politics or religion we all seem to be pretty zealous on our respective positions, but in the end, it comes down to what *you* will or will not do.

Trying to convivce anyone else of your position has pertty much the same result. No change in opinion.

So, I would not do it, don't really care who knows it, I was asked my opinion, that is what it is.
I don't shoot ducks early or deer at night either.

My beer is always close, don't need a den for that......LOL
Carry on......

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## rwc1969

> ...I should probably just stick to my pic threads which quite a few in 3 different groups have mostly liked.
> 
> I might post more in this good wilderness group but I will see how much time I do have.


 
I like your posts and figured you fell off the face of the earth until you posted this.

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## Mtnman Mike

> I like your posts and figured you fell off the face of the earth until you posted this.


I should have made a farewell thread last early June just before I left for my mtn  paradise / BOL / survival retreat.

And I guess I thought most who have seen much of what I post knew that I spend from June to Nov. every year since 1999, on my mtn place, camping, working and Living up there.    

I have a link showing pics of it on my profile and the latest long pic thread with over 50 New pics is here >   http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ad.php?t=14614

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## randyt

I came across something interesting last weekend. 

I don't mean to pick at a wound but for the sake of higher learning or at least curiosity I would post this. 

I was reading a book called Canadian Wilds by Martin Hunter. the book is circa 1900 and earlier. anyhoo there is a chapter in the describing a method of hunting bears by tracking the bear to it's den. It was considered a dangerous job and at least two people was recommended. I found it odd that here we have this thread and I come across this information. if ya get a chance to read this book it is interesting.

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## BENESSE

In 1900's they also used to "bleed" people to reduce fever. Just sayin'.

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> In 1900's they also used to "bleed" people to reduce fever. Just sayin'.


 And women knew their place!
(Snicker, snicker....love ya B!)

----------


## Camp10

> And women knew their place!
> (Snicker, snicker....love ya B!)


I'll speak well of you 2D!! Lol.

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## Rick

And men slept in the hay loft (they didn't have dog houses then).

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> And men slept in the hay loft (they didn't have dog houses then).


Ah..... those were the days. The smell of fresh manure drifting up to sooth the soul, and calm the psyche..... oh wait, that was just last week!!! :Blink:

----------


## BENESSE

> And women knew their place!
> (Snicker, snicker....love ya B!)


They still do! Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
(Who loves you, baby?!)

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> They still do! Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
> (Who loves you, baby?!)



 LOL...That's a good one! :Thumbup1:

----------


## Supertramp

i think he was ok in shooting the bear -the fact that he tracked it to the den and waited is just a nice tidbit to add.However i think it is safe to lose the mental picture of this guy crawling into a hole and killing the bear as most dens are actually quite shallow and i'm sure he just looked in and blasted -and if not...... the man is a fool either way
 -what is the diff in wiring  coons out of a hole in a tree or sending a ferret down a rabbit hole? what is the end means of hunting -to procure game for the table i figure

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## Rick

All of it is illegal here.

----------


## Supertramp

> All of it is illegal here.


i stand corrected -i have heard about people doing that also but never knew the legalities

----------


## Rick

It is illegal to...
• Remove wild animals from any cavity or den;
• Disturb the den or nest of any animal by shooting, digging, cutting  or chipping; 
with the aid of smoke, fre, fumes, chemicals, ferret or other small animal; or with 
any device introduced into the hole where the animal is sheltered
• Use or carry tree climbing or cutting equipment for the purpose of dislodging 
an animal from a tree.

----------


## rwc1969

What if you shoot an animal and it dies, but gets lodged in the tree? Legal, illegal? Ethical, unethical?

----------


## Rick

I'd just pull the tree up, give it a good shake and let the animal drop out.

----------


## rwc1969

I tried that, the trees too big. I can't even shake it. But, it is climbable with gear.

----------


## msudawgs56

I do not think I would have gone in the den and killed it. Just my opinion.

----------


## crashdive123

> I do not think I would have gone in the den and killed it. Just my opinion.


You could try this place http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...-Introductions  It's not nearly as bad as the bear den. :Tt2:

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## randyt

> I do not think I would have gone in the den and killed it. Just my opinion.


what I find interesting about this whole matter is according to the book I mentioned in a earlier post going into the den after a bear was not a preferred method. it was considered dangerous and a two man job. To read some of the replies it sounds like folks think it's like shooting fish in a barrel, not even close.

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## EdD270

Depends on how you define "wrong".
If you mean "legal" or "Illegal", then he apparently didn't violate any game or other laws or they would have charged him, so no harm, no foul.
If you mean "ethical", that's another thing entirely. I would never kill a bear in it's den unless necessary for true survival when I'm on the verge of starvation. I wouldn't kill a turkey on it's roost, either. But that's my own standards, and different folks have different strokes. If he's happy with it, I guess that's all that's necessary for him.

----------


## sushidog

He was wrong. Period.

I won't judge him though. Heaven knows I've done worse. May God have mercy on all our souls.

Chip

----------

