# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  Time measurement in wilderness

## TXyakr

How many different ways are there to measure time in the wilderness without a time keeping device from civilization?

I was watching a recent episode of Discovery Channel's "Dude, You're Screwed" where the new guy basically lost the game because he could not tell time and did not sleep enough (On summer solstice above arctic circle in Norway). Other than that he had great skills.

Most of us were taught to use our fingers or hand against the horizon with sun (best to use electronic clock to calibrate your hand first). Here is a link, my words are boring.

http://howtowilderness.com/2012/01/0...-measurements/

But how about moon and star movements, logs burning, water draining from hole, ice melting, cord wicking water from a pot and so many more. Just ideas off the top of my head, I have never tried these or calibrated them. I apologize if there is a very long thread on this already and I was not able to find, it just seemed like a fun discussion.

Also, how difficult is the hand method to use above the arctic circle where on W.S. the sun is basically moving along the horizon not down to it?

Edit: a related thread
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...me+measurement

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/chp18.php

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## LowKey

I'm one of those maddening people that, in my current local area, pretty much knows what time it is at about any time of day. Even when cooking it drives the family crazy that I show up to pull things out of the oven just as the buzzer is going off.

Losing a game just because you don't know when to sleep? That's stupid. Even in a place with 24 hour "days" there is still a cycle to the sun. Might take a day or two to figure it out. In the meantime, sleep when tired.

Is there a reason you need to tell time in the wilderness? Because any method you use will need to be referenced first. 
The Chinese used sticks of incense that were measured. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense_clock
You can make a candle clock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candle_clock
Or a regulated water clock:
http://www.historyofinformation.com/...ed.php?id=2306
If you look at the workings of a simplified pendulum clock, assuming you can get the gearage right, you could make one.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Wood...lock/?ALLSTEPS

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## TXyakr

> Losing a game just because you don't know when to sleep? That's stupid. Even in a place with 24 hour "days" there is still a cycle to the sun. Might take a day or two to figure it out. In the meantime, sleep when tired.


That survival game on the Discovery Ch is not super realistic because it is made for TV, but basically they blindfold the guy and take him somewhere he does not know and give him 100 hours to make it to civilization or find another human. This particular game the guy was allegedly blindfolded in Maine and taken to Norway. It seemed odd to me that he would not have at least put a stick in the ground and used a rock to mark and measure the shadow's movement. Whatever, he fell asleep while floating down the river did not see that he passed a road (i.e. best takeout to civilization), and proceeded on until he almost went over a waterfall, was pulled out and disqualified with over 20 hours still to go.

He was not given much useful stuff from civilization (like a candle or pot), but something burning slowly in or beside the fire should have told him he only slept 3 hours not 6-9 hours. A takeaway for me was if you rush, you may make life endangering mistakes. So take the time to sleep enough and try to eat something that will not make you sick and has calories. Endurance race not a sprint.

When I was about 5 my grandfather in BC, Canada set up a large Swinging Pendulum to prove that the world rotates. Perhaps he was afraid I thought he lived on the N-pole or something, S.P. still rotates up there, but it was cool. This survival game guy could have used his axe or a heavy log and let it swing, but that is fairly complicated and such an improvised device would probably only swing for 15 min or an hour.

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## 1stimestar

I can understand that.  It would be hard if you come in from some other place into our summer.  The extra light does give you extra energy and you don't notice until you crash and burn.  Many, many times during the summer, we are having dinner at 11 or even midnight because I didn't realize how late it was.  Yes you sleep when you get tired but coming in cold turkey from somewhere else, your body would not be used to listening to that clock yet.

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## finallyME

When I am in the wilderness I only use the sun.....when it comes up, time to wake up, when it goes down, time to go to sleep.  Why do I care about anything else?

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## 1stimestar

Right, but what would you do if it did not come up and go down, just went in a circle around the sky?

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## TXyakr

When a kid we were visiting my father's childhood friends near Edmonton, Alberta one summer as we did on occasion. After dinner they said lets go work on this roof. I thought it seemed like a waste of time since it was a drive to the location. But we got several hours of work done in great light. It sort of freaked me out since I had spent most of my life within 200 miles of the equator. Humans are the most adaptable species, that is why we live in more environments than almost any other single species. But it takes a lot of discipline and planning way up north.

If it was overcast and the sun was moving around the sky in a circle and I had no "civilized" technology to tell time and was affected by jet lag I would probably mess up as well.

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## 1stimestar



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## ClayPick

My dogs eat at 6, noon and 10. They have it down to a science.

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## Section10

Greetings everyone.
I would think if the sun was shining, you could get pretty accurate with a compass.  Probably to an hour of accuracy with a little practice.

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## TXyakr

Section10, I agree a large quality compass is very useful for this I have one of those with clear plastic that can be overlaid on a map. In worst case a iron/steel needle suspended from thread magntized with small powerful magnet may work but difficult, I need to experiment some time, I keep 2 needles in FAK. One yarn needle and one sharp upholstery, many other uses for these.

Using 2 sticks or rocks if skies are not overcast to determine movement of sun and stars works reasonably well, if you are far from distant mountain ranges using those in relation to sun/north star is good. Here are 2 links from WikiHow that are a little complicated and should be practiced or if you are like me you will quickly forget almost everything. Generally all I really care about in the wilderness is relative time, not exact time of day as measured by a clock, but remembering when sun up and sun down helps and when sun will reach max south (typically not noon by city folk's clocks).

http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-Time-Without-a-Clock

http://www.wikihow.com/Find-True-Nor...hout-a-Compass

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## wilderness medic

> When I am in the wilderness I only use the sun.....when it comes up, time to wake up, when it goes down, time to go to sleep.  Why do I care about anything else?


Agreed.




> Right, but what would you do if it did not come up and go down, just went in a circle around the sky?


Then still, what would it matter? Just more time to get things donesleep when your tired. Unless you have a dinner date with Yogi Bear or something...

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## 1stimestar

> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Then still, what would it matter? Just more time to get things donesleep when your tired. Unless you have a dinner date with Yogi Bear or something...


It would only matter if you were in a situation like the original poster was posting about.  It's easy to get sleep deprived up here in the summer.

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## Tokwan

> When I am in the wilderness I only use the sun.....when it comes up, time to wake up, when it goes down, time to go to sleep.  Why do I care about anything else?


Me too. I use the sun to tell the morning, noon or when the sun is 45 degrees after noon, I know I gotta find a safe spot and gather firewood. i always have water so once I have enough firewood, I know its time to put up my shelter which takes about 10 minutes....But in case I could not see the sun, I have my Casio Protrek..hehehe..but usually, u can see the sun.

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## OldFlJarhead

Casio with a five year battery.

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## Rick

Shadows. I use the old sundial method. Trees trunks make a pretty good sundial.

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## kyratshooter

I use the "rock method".

First find a rock and place it in front of your tent.

If you look out of the tent and see the rock it is daytime.

If you can not see the rock it is night time.

if the rock is bright and clearly visible it is a sunshiny day.

If the rock appears dull and is dimly lit it is a cloudy day.

If the rock is wet it is raining.

If the rock is covered with cold white stuff it is snowing.

This system has never failed me.

However, one of my pet peeves in the reenactment world is the rule on historic sites that one can not wear a watch due to historic accuracy concerns, then they schedule events to the minute and gripe if you are late.  

Or they send a runner through the camp telling everyone to assemble in 10 minutes!

I love going to long term reenactment camps where not only do you not care what time it is, you also lose track of what day it is???

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## hunter63

> I use the "rock method".
> 
> First find a rock and place it in front of your tent.
> 
> If you look out of the tent and see the rock it is daytime.
> 
> If you can not see the rock it is night time.
> 
> if the rock is bright and clearly visible it is a sunshiny day.
> ...


I use that as well..............
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I hung mine in a tipi stand....Makes it multi function "weather/time rock"

Keeps it out the way......bottom brown......mud slides
If its swinging....windy....
Standing straight out.....Hurricane/tornado....Take cover.

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## TXyakr

I rarely take a watch/clock unless a shuttle/outfitter requires that I be at a trail end or river takeout at a particular time, but generally avoid this by leaving a vehicle parked there and shuttling to trailhead/putin. They are never on time anyway.

I have never lived for an extended time near the Arctic circle but I have worked night shift for many months and flown east/west by jet a lot and know how that can mess up my circadian rhythm. Especially as a person gets older if they go for days without enough continuous hours of sleep most will make dangerous judgement errors and lose coordination. Therefore in these situations I use ear plugs and a dark shirt or something over my eyes and disciple myself to sleep for more than just short cat naps at will. Not easy without some relatively accurate time measurement.

Time between flight attendant asking if me if I want another tiny drink is about "What the #%&!, I just fell asleep, leave me alone!!!".

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## TXyakr

> I hung mine in a tipi stand....Makes it multi function "weather/time rock"
> 
> Keeps it out the way......bottom brown......mud slides
> If its swinging....windy....
> Standing straight out.....Hurricane/tornado....Take cover.


Cool setup hunter, how large of a mule cart does it require to haul all that gear through the wilderness?

a.aaa.jpg

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## hunter63

This set up does nicely.....
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Or this one......

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BOB gone wild!

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## crashdive123

Yep - big red and the "pull behind cart" can haul a lot of gear.

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## kyratshooter

If you want to see gear tested from minimal to extravagant just go to a big reenactment camp.

There will be people sleeping under the stars with only a pot for cooking and a couple of blankets to folks with two or three of the wall tents, like Hunter shows, hooked together, queen sized beds, tables and chairs with chandeliers holding the candles.

My whole family was involved in this activity and I have been part of a family "cluster camp" inside one of these events that included four big tents, a couple of small ones, 9 adults and God only knows how many kids.  I never could get them still long enough to count heads.  

Want to know how a tent stove works?  look for a stove-pipe.

Want to know if you can stay warm with one blanket?  Look for the cold, miserable guy with only one blanket evident.

Want to know how accurate black powder guns are?  Go hang out at the range for a while.

And if you stop for a while these folks will talk to you like they knew you for your whole life.  

And some, like Hunter and me, have been doing the primitive thing, in various levels, for 30-40 years.  It is not unusual to stop in a camp where three guys are sitting and discover all three are combat vets, former Boy scouts or scout leaders, fill game tags and freezers every year, and have 150 years outdoor experience between them.

And once you assemble the gear you tend to use it a good bit.  Reenactors normally do several of these events each year.  In 2013 I spent 15% of my year sleeping under canvas or nylon.  

How do you tell time in a reenactment camp??   When you see folks packing their trucks you start asking if it is time to go home?

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## TXyakr

> Or this one......
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
> 
> BOB gone wild!


Nice mule cart.
With that roof rack you could haul some 20+ foot tipi lodge poles and set up a pendulum clock with a 30-50 pound cast iron cook pot or rock/ax and get a fairly accurate time measurement, also earth's rotation (Latitude) by degrees of rotation if you divide up the circle. All this on a cloudy day with no electronic or mechanical gear clock from a store. Who needs those tiny, fragile things. LOL

The mules have done a fine job trimming that hay field down to a consistent level on that battle field out in the wilderness. Where are they now hiding under the hood? LOL

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## TXyakr

My daughter very loosely keeping time in a swinging pendulum beside the Big Cypress Bayou under a luxurious sheet metal shelter on stilts while the rest of the family paddled some trails through the bald cypress and Spanish moss.

HammockCypressBayou.jpg

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## hunter63

> Nice mule cart.
> With that roof rack you could haul some 20+ foot tipi lodge poles and set up a pendulum clock with a 30-50 pound cast iron cook pot or rock/ax and get a fairly accurate time measurement, also earth's rotation (Latitude) by degrees of rotation if you divide up the circle. All this on a cloudy day with no electronic or mechanical gear clock from a store. Who needs those tiny, fragile things. LOL
> 
> The mules have done a fine job trimming that hay field down to a consistent level on that battle field out in the wilderness. Where are they now hiding under the hood? LOL


Actually that's what the rack was used for, but they were about 30 ft......for the tipi and kitchen fly......

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## TXyakr

> Actually that's what the rack was used for, but they were about 30 ft......for the tipi and kitchen fly......


Fun with basic High School Physics (not Advanced Placement, just regular dumb jock class level. i.e. typical public school in USA not Asia. Asian 10 year old would not need pen and paper, simple thought calculations.)

With 30’ Tipi lodgepoles the interior height should be at least 15’ and "canvas" should protect from wind. This is great for a primitive "pendulum clock", use a cord to hand a bag of heavy stones (anything heavy) in the center. Easy method requiring minimum math to calibrate is to “cheat” and use an electronic stopwatch, only initially (can always use trig charts to calculate and compare results, i.e. the harder method). Measure spacing between base of lodgepoles and length (height) of pendulum so arc distance is repeatable. Then use rocks or sticks to measure angular distance in degrees around the circumference of the Tipi that the pendulum rotates over a period of an hour (half hour or whatever).
This should be repeatable as long as you are at about the same latitude. Does not matter if the pendulum’s arc decreases over time, just as long as it still swings and rotates. Ideally on exact Equator it would not rotate at all, on geographic North Pole on would make one full rotation every 24 hours or 15 degrees per hour. Just use basic trigonometry and interpolation to calculate latitudes between or cheat with stopwatch and protractor if to lazy to divide out degrees of a circle and do math.
This “science” is hundreds of years old. Wrist watch is easier but not as much fun.

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## Enigma

Can someone PLEASE explain how having a compass can tell you what time it is?  That's about the stupidest thing I've ever read.

maybe a sextant yes , but a COMPASS?

All a compass tells you, is your direction of travel, and where magnetic north is (obviously taking into account declination)

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## Enigma

NSW has the same time zone over more than 1500km's, can someone PLEASE tell me how a compass will tell me what time it is. Declination will change a couple of degrees, over that same distance. The sun rises exactly east/west 2 days a year, so forget the crap about using your watch etc to find true north, you'll be out up to 30 degrees in Sydney some parts of the year.
I'm waiting for a logical answer.
I want to tell the time, no matter where I am, using a compass to the minute.

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## madmax

I spend half my time here on earth camping.  I know it's hard to believe.  But it's what I do.  My dog Max is always with me.  My wife is almost always there.  A few years from now we will be a pack.  Inseperable.

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## kyratshooter

> NSW has the same time zone over more than 1500km's, can someone PLEASE tell me how a compass will tell me what time it is. Declination will change a couple of degrees, over that same distance. The sun rises exactly east/west 2 days a year, so forget the crap about using your watch etc to find true north, you'll be out up to 30 degrees in Sydney some parts of the year.
> I'm waiting for a logical answer.
> I want to tell the time, no matter where I am, using a compass to the minute.


That right there is your problem, it does not work if you are hidden down there at the bottom of the world!

The decision to place NSW in a single time zone is a political decision not and astrological one.  A time zone is 15% of longitude.  Any other division is arbitrary or political, just like "daylight saving time".

Point your compass north, for each 15 degrees east and west on the suns arch you have one hour of time.  Divide that hour into 15 points matching the degrees and you will get to within 4 minutes using the degrees on the compass and the sun.  If you stop 10 people on the street you will probably get more than 4 minutes variation in time registered on their modern and sophisticated time pieces. 

And if you know the declination of a given point, or close to it, the declination can be factored in rather than throw you hands in the air and run in circles.  If Sidney is 30 degrees declination then factor that in.  Simple enough, right.  If you do not know true north it will be the direction of the shortest point on a shadow stick poked into the ground on a sunny day, or as some call it, noon.

Your demand of accuracy to the minute is a bit absurd.  It was not possible until just recently in world history and there were some really big rewards given to the people that could pull it off back in the late 1700s-early 1800s.  It required some really well made time pieces too!  

Many of the ancient town clocks in Europe have only an hour hand.  That was as close as they needed.  The railroads are the reason for our modern concept of keeping time to the minute.  That and the factory whistle calling workers to the job. 

Carrying the time with you, as a watch, was not possible until the late 1700s and was not common until the mid 1800s.  That was also about the time when clocks in homes became common, and still there were no time zones and everyone set their clocks to whatever "local time" the sun gave them at noon, or about noon, or when church stared by the pastor's watch.

It is not relevant in most any life situation.  I was married to two different women who could not tell time to within an hour, were never on time anywhere, and they managed to run my life quite well. 

In most 3rd world nations time is a big block concept, morning, afternoon, day and night, even though they might now have watches.  Back in the 1970s I was working with groups of people that had no concept of hours and minutes, could not tell time or read a watch, but that is another tale.

or do like the rest of us and take the watch off before you set up camp and forget what time it is!

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## Auban

find a tree trunk and watch it.  find the shadow of a low lying branch and use that as the point to track the shadow.  as the shadow moves around, place twigs and sticks in the ground to track its movement.  

at the end of the day, you should be able to find noon.  from there, you can determine what time it is.  


for training and evaluation events,  i have had to use nothing more than shadows before.  knowing the finger method, where you stretch your hands out in front of you and every finger is about fifteen minutes, works well enough.  but you will want to practice it BEFORE you go into the field.  its not entirely accurate since everyone's fingers are a different size.

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## hunter63

The reason they call them "Hands" on a closk..... is that Black Elk once held his hands up and measured the distance from the ground to the sun.....
"Eh.....Sun 3 hands high".....so the term "Hands" stuck........

Oh course he had big hands so YMMV........LOL
Or so I've heard....

Anyway Being retired it's "Get up......Coffee ...do stuff....brunch.....nap....do stuff.....4:30 Early bird Special ....Nap........News.....go to sleep.
Sooo, I really only need a watch to tell me when the Early Bird Special starts.......
OR
Hunting season, when to start shooting, and when to stop.

The rest of the time its light or dark.....

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## Rick

I just close my eyes and walk in any direction. Guaranteed to find a road in about 15 minutes. Any direction. Well, not up or down but all around.

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## hunter63

Anywhere is with-in walking distance.....Given enough time....
(Stephen Wright)

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## madmax

I've sat down in the palms until sunrise before.  An oh **** moment.  Give me East.  I'll get there.

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## Enigma

Madmax, that exact same reasoning has killed people. They follow the rising sun out for a hunt, and follow the setting sun back to camp at sunset, and wonder why they are 'lost'.

Not going to explain it, seeing as everyone here thinks I'm a dick about the whole fallacy of using the sun for certain things.

You won't have "east" mate, except for 2 days a year. if you're happy with being 30* degrees or more out, you go for it.

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## crashdive123

Let it go dude - you are steadily proving some right. 


> Not going to explain it, seeing as everyone here thinks I'm a dick about the whole fallacy of using the sun for certain things.

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## Enigma

> Let it go dude - you are steadily proving some right.


Really? What does 'right' mean?

You Yanks are way too polite.

We'd just say…."you're a ****in wanker mate".



Relax mate, new dudes always seem to upset the apple cart at first. No harm meant.

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## madmax

Did you read that I spend half my life in the woods Enigma?

Oh just nevermind.  I hate confrontation.  Ignore me.

Crash, if this gets out of hand just delete my posts.  It ain't worth the PIA.

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## jdbushcraft

Really?  How long should it take for someone interested to figure out where they live the sun is rising more north or south than true east?  Then just keep sun to left or right after you figure it out.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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## madmax

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but...

My neck of the woods isn't to far from a road here in central FL.  Traveling in western USA, Canada, and Alaska I carried map and compass period.  I got schooled hiking into the lava flows in HI at night.  Or rather back out.  Oopsie compass don't work.  Magnetics and such.

Clear skies and stars got me back no problem.

I have a learning disability with gps.

Sun and stars don't fail.

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## Rick

> new dudes always seem to upset the apple cart at first.


Actually, they don't. Just the occasional odd one. Your bushcraft skills seem to be good. You're people skills...not so much.

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## Enigma

Fair enough. I shall work on that one.

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## Auban

compass.  


works when you have nothing else.  a watch is better  :Wink:

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## Roel

@Madmax... please don't go to the east... it's hopeless, you never find it... grin...

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## Enigma

> Really?  How long should it take for someone interested to figure out where they live the sun is rising more north or south than true east?  Then just keep sun to left or right after you figure it out.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


some hunters over this way died because they followed the rising sun away from camp, hunted all day, then followed the setting sun back to camp (they were kilometres away). The point to survival training is to bring real world celestial Nav info, to the untrained. I don't really have much interest in the 'she'll be right' attitude people have to the outdoors. That's the sort of over confidence which makes people statistics. Probably comes across here as a right nit picking idiot, but that's what I do as a living. :-)

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## jdbushcraft

N,S,E and W are cardinal points, not bearings to a destination.  No matter how they estimated north they would have the same issue.  And I don't have any interest in celestial nav.  

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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## Enigma

I agree totally with you. People really need to learn proper Navigation for outdoor activities. :-)

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## kyratshooter

> some hunters over this way died because they followed the rising sun away from camp, hunted all day, then followed the setting sun back to camp (they were kilometres away).  :-)


How did they find this information out from dead men?

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## 1stimestar

> Really?  How long should it take for someone interested to figure out where they live the sun is rising more north or south than true east?  Then just keep sun to left or right after you figure it out.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Living as close as I do to the Arctic Circle, we can have as much as 7 minutes a day in loss or gain of daylight.  Add it up for a week and that's losing or gaining over 45 minutes a week.  It's pretty crazy around here the closer to Solstice (June and December) we are.  So while our sun kind of rises in the east, and kind of sets in the west, it's more south east and south west and has very much to do with the time of year.

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## Auban

i used to live in eielson air force base, when my dad was stationed up there.  about four years.  

on my birthday, the sun never really went down.  on my brothers birthday, the sun never really came up.  i can see how that could get pretty confusing for land nav...

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## Rick

> How did they find this information out from dead men?




Extensive sand drawings before they died.  :Thumbup1:

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## Enigma

> How did they find this information out from dead men?


Tracking them. Once bodies are found, or people go missing, authorities piece together the circumstances surrounding the cause, to save inquests etc.

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## Enigma

> Extensive sand drawings before they died. [/COLOR]


No, Trackers are employed here, to search for people, especially in semi arid regions.

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## 1stimestar

> i used to live in eielson air force base, when my dad was stationed up there.  about four years.  
> 
> on my birthday, the sun never really went down.  on my brothers birthday, the sun never really came up.  i can see how that could get pretty confusing for land nav...


Yep.  And I live north of Eielson.

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## ARaff1105

I'm new to the forum, so forgive any assumptions....


What I'm thinking is a typical sundial...stick in the ground and track the shadow as it changes position over the day....With the horizontal motion, you should have a tighter arc than the typical half-circle, but I'm thinking you can still use it to gauge number of hours that pass.  You'd get tricked up by the shadow going back in reverse quicker than normal, but you'd have to account for what little "sunset" there was.  I don't live in the area, but those "sunsets" change the sky color to a red due to the angle of rays as they hit the Earth.  You could measure each red sky as midnight and start counting hours from there.

Another thought would be if you know your typical pace and could determine your general distance traveled.  Most hikers can cover about a mile of fairly easy terrain at a light pace in about 20 minutes.  Just a thought.

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## hunter63

Hunter63 saying Hey and Welcome....
There is an into section at 
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...-Introductions

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## Lamewolf

Time measurement in the wilderness ?  What for ?  I go to the wilderness to "get away" from time !    Don't need no stink time measurement in the wilderness !  :Balloon:

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## hunter63

I may have stated before.......
I need to know legal starting time to hunt in the morning.....and what time I have to legally quit in the evening.......That's about it.
Knowing what Day season opens is good....and of course what day it closes is also good.

Knowing where you are, is probably more important that what time it is.

Mastering both out in the wilderness is a good skill to have....But a good old Timex works pretty well....I like the "Indigo" series.....About $20 bucks up, leather or web band.

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## 1stimestar

> I'm new to the forum, so forgive any assumptions....
> 
> 
> What I'm thinking is a typical sundial...stick in the ground and track the shadow as it changes position over the day....With the horizontal motion, you should have a tighter arc than the typical half-circle, but I'm thinking you can still use it to gauge number of hours that pass.  You'd get tricked up by the shadow going back in reverse quicker than normal, but you'd have to account for what little "sunset" there was.  I don't live in the area, but those "sunsets" change the sky color to a red due to the angle of rays as they hit the Earth.  You could measure each red sky as midnight and start counting hours from there.
> 
> Another thought would be if you know your typical pace and could determine your general distance traveled.  Most hikers can cover about a mile of fairly easy terrain at a light pace in about 20 minutes.  Just a thought.


But the "red sky" lasts for several hours.  

https://youtu.be/HO91qdyqtj8

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## 1stimestar

Also, in the winter, noon is not at 12 o'clock if noon is the highest point the sun gets in a day.  That would be closer to 1pm.

https://youtu.be/MXxRcXHI_tI

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## kyratshooter

That seems very strange to me since the astronomical definition of noon is the highest point of the sun on the horizon.

We monkey around with "time zones" based on political definitions and preferences.  Right now I am on Daylight Savings Time and have been messed up for a month.

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## Roel

No you are not messed up. Why..? The only thing you have to know is the right time... and you can act like it was in the old days.. when everything was easyer... and so on...and so on....

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