# General > General Guns & Ammo >  Self defense against a dog attack?

## jim Glass

Friend of a friend was walking two very small dogs on a public side walk.  One or both dogs were puppies.  Without notice or provocation 3 pitbulls  attacked the small dogs and the lady walking the dogs.    One dog is in serious condition, the other dog died from the injuries and the lady was hospitalized with wounds from the dogs.   The pitbull owner claims it was not his dogs but witnesses say they were his dogs.

Having a debate with friends.  Some say if the lady was conceal carrying  the pitbulls could have been shot.   Others disagree saying the lady could defend herself but not her dogs in the attack.   The state of New York makes it perfectly clear attacking dogs can be killed under certain circumstances.  In New York a witness to the attack may shoot the attack dogs.   This dog attack happened in Northern Illinois not far from home.

Opinions?

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## hunter63

Nope....will not speculate .....local and state legal problem.

If I were her I would report and sue the crap out of them.

If nothing done....then burn the house down (Joke)

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## jim Glass

I think the hospital is required to report certain injuries to the police.   I would think the dog owner is in serious trouble.   He should pay the bills and pay to buy another dog.   I had a dog come after me a few days ago.  Fortunately the dog was tied up.   I still had my hand on my knife.   I'll conceal carry in the future.

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## hunter63

Dog DNA can be used to match the offender....
AS far as concealed carry....that all always a thought...and have to admit I do in my walks.....

That said...unless you were a really good with a big caliber ,... not likely.......even if you know what you were doing....AND had your weapon in the ready position....you can't put down 3 pits that fast.

LEO have killed several.....around here....and generally take a full mag....from a couple of LEO....

So...this lady would be far better off with a big walking stick and pepper spray......

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## kyratshooter

A walking stick is useless on a pumped up pit bull.  

I broke a shovel handle over the head of a P-bull that had one of my chickens cornered once.  The dog did not even flinch.  I clobbered him with the shovel end and that had about the same effect.  By the time I went inside and retrieved the shotgun he was gone with his feathered prize.  One of the few times I have walked out of the house unarmed and one of the reasons I carry a pistol with me while mowing the yard or walking to the mailbox.  

Also why I do not carry a .22 as primary anything.  All my defensive firearms are selected with dog killing abilities in mind.  The first gun I ever bought specifically to kill dogs was an M1 carbine purchased when I bought my first homestead back in the '70s.

You look up and there they are!  They were not there the last time you looked and where they appeared from is anyone's guess, they are simply between you and the house and have their teeth barred and their hair on end, like you were threatening them with that water bill.  The fear of man is not in them.  They are the pack leader and they will rule.  Humans are simply prey.

It is also the reason I get my exercise on a stationary bike rather then going outside.  There are unrestrained dogs everywhere in my neighborhood, since it is a rural area and the leash laws are simply ignored.

The old fashioned mutt is no longer the preferred breed on the farm, folks have gone high class and have Rottweilers, Dobermans, Boxers and Pit Bulls all running lose and chasing people that walk and ride bikes for sport.  

Now the old fashioned mutt had some good sense. He knew who the neighbors were and might give a welcome bark to alert everyone to their arrival, but he would calm down and allow the neighbor to pat his head once the owner showed up.  He might get a bit aggressive with a stranger but the owner could call him off and he would go under the porch and pout.

This present trend toward breeds with no good sense and too much adrenaline means the dog does not know when to stop and no one can stop them.

I am not a "dog person".  I do not dislike them, and I really like some, just not all of them with no qualifications.

Basic use of the 3-S rule applies.

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## Rick

I was out walking a couple of years ago and a boxer came charging out of a yard after me. I drew my 9mm and was ready to put the dog down. He stopped 1/3 of the way out in the street. I guess because I faced him. Had he made it to the center of the street he would have been shot. It was a standoff for a few minutes and the owner came out and called their dog and he went running home. We have a leash law so I had no qualms about shooting the dog. I am not about to get ripped up because some idiot can not bother to keep their dog tied, chained or fenced. I can appreciate that even the best owners can have their animals get out on occasion. It happens. But there may be consequences if that dog presents itself as less than friendly. I do not know your dog and I am not going to take a chance if I fear it. Wagging tails are one thing. Low guttural growls quite another.

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## rebel

My wife carries a small air horn when she walks the dogs. It's been effective against dog fights.

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## jim Glass

Amazing stories here.  My wife told me just now me  the woman and her puppies were on their own property when the attack occurred. The pitbulls came from next door.

Been a few years when my neighbor acquired 2 dogs that would attack me when I was walking from the house to the machine shop.  I spoke to the neighbor several times about the dogs.   I told the neighbor no big deal if the dogs wonder over into my yard but not in attack mode.    Finally one day the dogs attacked my wife taking out the trash.   No contact was made but my wife was terrified and in tears, she called me at work.    I came home and I was pissed, went straight to the police.   I told 3 officers, "if the dogs ever attack someone on my property again I'll shoot the dogs".  This was long before conceal carry.  The cops said they would arrest me for shooting the dogs.   I  told them, "go ahead, I'll work it out with the judge".  The cops came and had a talk with the neighbor about the dogs.   A few months later the dogs attacked the mail man.  He took refuge on our front deck then sprayed the dogs.   The neighbor finally got rid of the dogs.

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## Rick

Utility and mail have a bit of leverage because they can say we are not coming around as long as that dog(s) is running loose. If the mailman (lady) walks the mail route then they just won't deliver the mail. Pretty simple. Dog spray is pretty good stuff but if the dog has hair over their eyes like a sheepdog or if they are really pumped up then the spray won't bother them. I've used it on quite a few dogs with limited success. I've also written up no access cards and tossed them out the window while the dogs were trying to chew the tires off the truck. That worked pretty well.

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## LowKey

Do not read if squeamish about hurting a dog:
https://exigentcircumstance.wordpres...o-fight-a-dog/

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I was weed eating at #1 son's house one morning and caught some movement out of the corner of my eye.  I had enough time to turn and see a pit bull coming straight on in.  I stuck the weed eater at full throttle in her open mouth.  She stopped but would not leave.  I backed her up, hitting her several more times, so I could get in my truck.  I went home and got a pistol. While I was there #1 wife told me that the dog had treed her and my grandkids the day before.  I went back and there was a girl standing in the middle of the street.  She asked me if I would help her put the dog in a pen.  I said, "you're kidding right?"  I told her if the dog passed the property line again it would be very easy to get her in a pen, or a bag, or a box, or whatever. She put the dog inside her trailer house while I watched.  If the dog would have attacked her I'd have shot it.  

I don't know what happened to that dog.  It just disappeared one day after it showed up at another neighbor's chicken coop.  I think it got a chicken bone stuck in its throat.

But, to answer the question….  The only self defense against most any large dog is a firearm.  Pitbulls and the like, some kind of firearm.  When #1 son was hog hunting he used pits as catch dogs.  I've seen him slam a five cell maglight into a pits skull and the thing still would not let got of a dead hog.  With pits and the like, it's not about getting dog bit, it's about getting mauled.

Alan

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## Manwithnoname

> Friend of a friend was walking two very small dogs on a public side walk.  One or both dogs were puppies.  Without notice or provocation 3 pitbulls  attacked the small dogs and the lady walking the dogs.    One dog is in serious condition, the other dog died from the injuries and the lady was hospitalized with wounds from the dogs.   The pitbull owner claims it was not his dogs but witnesses say they were his dogs.
> 
> Having a debate with friends.  Some say if the lady was conceal carrying  the pitbulls could have been shot.   Others disagree saying the lady could defend herself but not her dogs in the attack.   The state of New York makes it perfectly clear attacking dogs can be killed under certain circumstances.  In New York a witness to the attack may shoot the attack dogs.   This dog attack happened in Northern Illinois not far from home.
> 
> Opinions?


JG my opinion is kinda based on where I live and I think that's probably key to what you can get away with or not.  Here you have every right to put down an attacking dog whether it be on a person or livestock. Way back when when I lived in town a neighbor let their dog run the neighborhood loose. I had a Chesapeake/lab mix at the time and the trespesser left requiring a ton of stitches. It's owner thought they would press charges. Animal control ticketed them for an unleashed dog.  The farm I lived on about 3yrs back, a neighbor let there's run free and it would come chase the chickens. The farm owner warned them, he shows up again, he will be shot and I was given a shot on sight order. Where I live now used to have a problem with a feral pack that was killing random stock animals around the lake. They were all eventually killed off.   If I lived in some bleeding heart other state I might still be in jail.

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## Antonyraison

no idea,
I have yet to be attacked by any dog, even the most viscous of them seem to be ok with me.
walking with other dogs well y ou need to take care as that can trigger dogs to fight.
But IMO its more of the owners problem than the actual dogs problem, some ppl just have no idea how to raise animals.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

There is something about lawn mowers and gas powered yard equipment that triggers some of the ones in this area.  There's an old lady down the street for whom I mow. A pit bull lives next door.  It wears an electronic collar 24/7 and for five passes next to its fence it tries to jump the chain link and electronic barrier.  It is literally inches from coming over the fence.  I've know the owner for many years and I told him about it.  His reply was that the dog didn't like lawn mowers (I guess the dog rules his back yard because it hasn't been mowed in years).  I told him that I was not going to get dog bit mowing a yard for free.  He understood and I guess is okay with it.  I mow the five passes next to the fence first and have hit the dog with a stick several times before it could climb all the way over.  It is persistent.  Once I get away from the fence a bit it stops jumping, but one of these days the fence and the shock collar are not going to be enough and it will require more. 

Border Collies and Aussies in the neighborhood don't like mowers either, but they go for the tires.  That pit is looking at my legs.

Alan

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## Antonyraison

People need to be trained ..lol not dogs.
I dont see any breed as innately bad or aggressive.
I see the people that raise the animals incapable of understanding dogs. 
Just my 2 cents..
but yeah I do own like 5 dogs, a great dane cross Rottweiler, a Rottweiler cross German shepard, a Dachaund cross jack russel, and a real mutt border collie cross several other things.

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## madmax

FL has some strange gun laws.  I took a gun law seminar a year or two back.  I didn't get a straight answer for your scenario and with people behind me with questions,  I gave up pretty quick.  I live in town right across from an elementary school.  Any discharge of a firearm would provoke an investigation.  Rural property belonging to you with animals on it?  I would hope the sheriff would take a statement and go his merry way.

But.  If a dog that has the potential to do great harm to me, my wife, or my dog attacks,  I'll shoot him, regardless.

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## Antonyraison

> FL has some strange gun laws.  I took a gun law seminar a year or two back.  I didn't get a straight answer for your scenario and with people behind me with questions,  I gave up pretty quick.  I live in town right across from an elementary school.  Any discharge of a firearm would provoke an investigation.  Rural property belonging to you with animals on it?  I would hope the sheriff would take a statement and go his merry way.
> 
> But.  If a dog that has the potential to do great harm to me, my wife, or my dog attacks,  I'll shoot him, regardless.


and you should. If that danger is there and unavoidable, you cant take a chance with your family.

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## Rollicks

Today someone's German Shepherd wandered into our camp and it was barking, growling and approaching me aggressively. I backed away slowly and avoided eye contact. The dog continued to approach me, growling and backing me into a corner. Several thoughts were running through my head:

#1.) I will probably die if I run away from the dog, to the dog, or just in general (I'm out of shape). 
#2.) TKD hasn't helped me against most assailants, so why would it help me now?
#3.) Knives are only good if you don't leave them in your tackle box.
#4.) Hmmm...

Eventually, the dog backed off and went away, but after that confrontation I grabbed a hoe from the garden shed just in case I needed to act scary in front of the dog (Chimpanzees have been known to wave a large branch around and smack it on the ground to scare off an approaching Tiger). 

Later on, a Ranger drove up and was reading a camper the riot act, because several other campers had complained that her two dogs had been wandering around acting aggressively towards them. Not only that, but the person left the dogs unsupervised all day long. Anything could have happened...Thankfully, nothing bad happened to my fellow campers or the dogs. 

The best defense against a dog attack is to be a responsible pet owner.

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## crashdive123

> but after that confrontation I grabbed a hoe from the garden shed just in case I needed to act scary


Nope.  Not going to do it.

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## Rick

Some things in life are just too easy. Even at our age we need some kind of challenge. Oooh, tinfoil.......

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## rebel

Kind of tired of the low iq lynching mentality. Does legality make something right? My dogs could come running at you. Because of their size and speed you would be afraid. Your son could be driving a car and not paying attention. Statistically who's more likely to cause harm? Do you shoot the kid? No.

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## Antonyraison

I get your point, and I am an advocate for animals and dogs,etc.
And find 99% of the issue is not the dog at all, its the owner of the dog.
Yet one could find oneself in the back woods faced with a rabbid dog and you have yourself and your family and your well behaved dog to protect.
the choice is simple...

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## rebel

I agree. A buddy of mine was hiking alone and had an encounter with a pack. Now he hikes armed.

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## kyratshooter

Back in the early 1980s I built a homestead in a place that was really rough woods country with miles of gravel road access.  It was a good run from town and ASPCA and rescue groups did not abound back then. The custom of the people in town was to bring unwanted litters of pups and kittens out to the country and drop them in the woods.  

Most of the dropped litters starved but some of the very strong survived so the woods was inhabited by packs of wild and savage dogs that had no human fear and killed anything they came across, sometimes for "sport".

On one occasion I remember grabbing my binoculars to see why a horse was trotting across my pasture, since I did not own a horse.  I got the glasses focused to discover I was watching a huge great dane type critter lope across the field.  No one in the area owned a GD.

I encountered a pack my second week on the property, and fortunately had a firearm with me but still barely made it back to the safety of my truck without being mauled.

I immediately switched from revolver to semi-auto with extra magazines on the belt for my primary belt gun and started carrying a Browning A5 in the truck.

It was not but a short time latter that one of the neighbors was mauled in his yard by one of the packs and had to under go intensive surgery to get repaired, as well as the full rabies treatment.  

The entire community went dog hunting crazy.  We hunted them like people hunt coyotes today, except we did not have some of the fancy electronic predator calls.  I probably killed a pickup truck load of wild dogs over the course of the 5 years I was on that place.  Others killed more than I did.

Everyone had a 30-30, M1 carbine, or a magazine fed shotgun handy at all times.

So when you think of the 1980s and all those guns in the back window of the southern "good ole boys" pickups, remember that some of those "good old boys" had college degrees, taught at the local high school, and had wild dog problems.

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## jim Glass

Wild dog problems, never heard of that one before.   Although I remember squirrel hunting as a teenager along our local river.  I was walking a wooded high river bank area.   Looking down at the river I saw a pack of dogs running along the edge of the river.   The dogs were unaware of my presence.   It was weird because it was 5 or 6 dogs of different breeds and sizes.   Never saw them again or heard of a pack of dogs causing problems.

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## hunter63

Wisconsin DNR used to do wild dog round ups every once in awhile....all wardens called in and back up trucks....even a Piper Cub in the air.

Many that were running and shot...had collars.
Fido's not coming home tonight.

That just bad owners....dog are dogs....

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## kyratshooter

Wild dogs were once a real big problem in my old area but not so much any more.

The coyotes eat most of them.

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## Batch

People drop off all sorts of pets at edge of the glades. That is a contributor to the exotic python, boa, anaconda, tegu, monitor lizard, ad nazeum...

They also drop off dogs and cats. The cats are well established and like most invasive plants and animals, it is that they out compete natives for resources. The dogs have the potential for feral dog packs. But, there has been only a few cases down here in South Florida. It's more humanitarian thing. Leaving a domesticated animal to fend for itself in the Everglades.

There have even been people leaving horses out there.

On the defense against dogs issue. The owner of the company I work for has a neighbor who has an unfriendly German Shepard. She came out to get in her car yesterday morning and the German Shepard was out of the gate and ran over snarling and growling. It chased her around the car and she jumped in the passenger door and was able to drive away. Still it scared her pretty good. You should not be afraid to walk to your car in your own driveway.

I have been bitten by dogs. But, only one I would say was attacking me. I was running to a friends house when I was a kid and a dog ran down a driveway and ran behind me and bit me.

All other times dogs that have run up to me have stopped a few feet away and just did aggression displays.

On one hand I will defend against a threat to me or mine with what ever I deem necessary at the time. Without regard to contrary laws or consequences.

On the other hand, twice my dogs have gone out through the front door when it wasn't closed properly. I have a 100lb Dogo and an 80lb + Red Nose. I always worry that someone like minded will do the same as I might. But, if they are on their property or approaching their family and are unknown to them and not leashed as they are required to be by law. I have no one to blame but myself for the loss of my dogs.

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## Rick

Hold the phone. Back the truck up. Tegu? Tegu? No. See? No. That's not right. On the list!

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## rebel

I have two German Shepards that I've been training for a couple of years to be therapy dogs. They're good hearted. I take them to the old folks home. However, they are prey driven. If you move too fast they will react. It's best to just not move. Not a problem with old folks.

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## Batch

I was working on my dock and an iguana sneaked up behind me. He got within 3' of me and then I noticed him. He just proceeded on by me.

A treacherous little bastard. Now, I know iguanas are harmless. But, there is nothing says you can't be harmless and treacherous too. Least I never read that in any rule book I ever read. 

And then we had a few Jesus Lizards running back and forth as well. Cool little critters!

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Does neighborhood cats pissing on my front porch count for nuisance animals.  I have three cats, all female, all spayed.  They stay in the back yard.  There is really no reason for any cat pissing on my front porch.

Alan

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## Rick

I don't need lizards sneaking up behind me. That's just not right. You could have three lizards sneak up behind you them WHAM suddenly it's a dinosaur. That's just not cool. 


Yeah, cats peeing on my porch? that would do it. I mark territory a bit different than cats do. It's a bit noisier too.

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## Wise Old Owl

Not a fan about pit bulls to say they are like other dogs is a mistake... I have read the reports, seen the statistics, IDGAD - in the past 20 years there have been more laws passed against dogs in parks that need to be mentioned. Clearly a few cat lovers are a bit leftist. You are in power to do what ever you want on your property, even if it pisses off your neighbor. Just don't shoot your neighbor, it doesn't go down well. Look I have heard that this dog once bites keeps it jaw locked on prey, included in the news on child faces and arms thru a fence. It may be true and very disturbing. I don't like haring about this... I too blame trainers and bad parents for making this decision. But I too see a different side as I am invited into the homes of rentals and the poor. And I see chained pitbulls & dogs that live in a 10x5 dining room on a slab where the carpets are ripped up so when they poop they can be cleaned up. The poor do not treat these dogs well - but I won't be a part of it.
\

Yes I love my dogs far too much.

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## kyratshooter

> I don't need lizards sneaking up behind me. That's just not right. You could have three lizards sneak up behind you them WHAM suddenly it's a dinosaur. That's just not cool.


It gets real bad when they start running in packs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRnEOUxZm0

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## Rick

Yeah, 'zactly. 

Just stare at him. Humans get real nervous if you just stare at them. (the other way, George. He's behind you)

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## bigbob

I suggest you carry bear spray. If it does not work you might carry a hammer for heads. Nice sharp end walking stick. Pistol handy to use if situation/location is appropriate.

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## JohnLeePettimore

Dropping off animals you don't want is cowardly, and it makes me sick.  The animals either die slowly of starvation, disease, or injury, they get eaten by something else, or they end up wild and dangerous to people.

We had a dog a few years back that was lovable, not dangerous, but a total pain in the ***. It replaced a dog that we let roam free, but never caused any problems.  This new one would go and break into a neighbors chicken coop and kill his chickens. We had to tie him up (on a run), along with another dog that everyone in the neighborhood loves, and was never any trouble on her own (or before with the other dog), but would follow along with this one. I tried to give the new dog away, but couldn't find anyone to take him.  Well, about two weeks after we hooked them up, we noticed that the older dog was really skinny.  The new dog had been eating all the food.  That was the last straw. I was about to take the dog out somewhere and shoot him.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea, but I didn't want to pay $75 for someone else to kill the dog (just as quickly, but a more cleanly). I was not going to release him and let him die a cruel death or become someone else problem.  The only thing that saved the dog was someone finally took us up on the free dog offer.

Unless they're a little off, no one is going to look forward to shooting their own dog (in this kind of circumstance anyway).  But releasing him off somewhere is immature, irresponsible, cowardly, and cruel.  Either cough the funds for the vet to do it, or do it yourself.  Get a spine, or a set (depending on your gender).  Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.  It's part of being an adult.

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## madmax

Well said JLP!  My dog Max came out of the NC woods.  Skinny and covered in ticks.  He had to be miserable but he attached himself to us.  We tried to find his owners in vain and took him to the shelter.  More like killing house.  They said they'd put him down the next morning.  Took him home and started training.  Best dog I ever had in my life.  I shudder to think what a terrible short life he would've had wandering through the mountains.

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## hunter63

> Dropping off animals you don't want is cowardly, and it makes me sick.  The animals either die slowly of starvation, disease, or injury, they get eaten by something else, or they end up wild and dangerous to people.
> 
> We had a dog a few years back that was lovable, not dangerous, but a total pain in the ***. It replaced a dog that we let roam free, but never caused any problems.  This new one would go and break into a neighbors chicken coop and kill his chickens. We had to tie him up (on a run), along with another dog that everyone in the neighborhood loves, and was never any trouble on her own (or before with the other dog), but would follow along with this one. I tried to give the new dog away, but couldn't find anyone to take him.  Well, about two weeks after we hooked them up, we noticed that the older dog was really skinny.  The new dog had been eating all the food.  That was the last straw. I was about to take the dog out somewhere and shoot him.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea, but I didn't want to pay $75 for someone else to kill the dog (just as quickly, but a more cleanly). I was not going to release him and let him die a cruel death or become someone else problem.  The only thing that saved the dog was someone finally took us up on the free dog offer.
> 
> Unless they're a little off, no one is going to look forward to shooting their own dog (in this kind of circumstance anyway).  But releasing him off somewhere is immature, irresponsible, cowardly, and cruel.  Either cough the funds for the vet to do it, or do it yourself.  Get a spine, or a set (depending on your gender).  Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.  It's part of being an adult.


Well said....
My dogs, my responsibility....for all aspects of our time together.... including deciding when it's "Time"

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## rebel

Yep. Back before the feeling generation, you did what you had to do.

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## hayshaker

In minnesota a few years ago the state passed a vicious dog law.
state wide, it was done cause a unfit parent letting thier 7yr'old child
run loose up and down the block. a neighbors pit got loose from the yard an mauled
the child.  now the owner of any dog on this list' shepards pits chows dobes
like that will automaticy recieve a year in prison. where is the responibilty of others.
to automaticly place blame on the pet owner. and prison time to boot. thats crazy
and this law is state wide not just the cities.

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## Rick

I don't even know what to say to that. I suppose a good parent would have kept their child chained up at home. A parent is unfit because they let their child play? I have to hand it to you. That's certainly a twisted way to look at it.

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## madmax

There's a guy that wears a wife beater T shirt and a lot of gold chains that occasionally walks his pit bull up our street.   The dog wears a spike collar and is on a chain.  I mean a chain.  It pulls that guy down the street straining the chain the whole way.  It takes great interest in other dogs, cats, kids, and adults.  The guy either crosses the street or pulls the dog off the sidewalk to let people go by.  Dog has intense prey instinct, aggression, and is very reactive.  My observations and fear have nothing to do with the breed.  I live across the street from an elementary school.  Kids are always playing over there.  I hope the guy moves soon.

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## WalkingTree

> In minnesota a few years ago the state passed a vicious dog law.
> state wide, it was done cause a unfit parent letting thier 7yr'old child
> run loose up and down the block. a neighbors pit got loose from the yard an mauled
> the child.  now the owner of any dog on this list' shepards pits chows dobes
> like that will automaticy recieve a year in prison. where is the responibilty of others.
> to automaticly place blame on the pet owner. and prison time to boot. thats crazy
> and this law is state wide not just the cities.





> I don't even know what to say to that. I suppose a good parent would have kept their child chained up at home. A parent is unfit because they let their child play? I have to hand it to you. That's certainly a twisted way to look at it.


...heh...whew...

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## hayshaker

the thing is this, this incident took place in the ghetto so to speak.
in such a neighborhood and given the world we live in today.
it's not the world we grew up in many moons ago.
child abductions, driveby shootings and the like.
children SHOULD be able to play freely.
but sadly our world in many places has changed for the worse.

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## LowKey

15 people watched while 2 pit bulls killed a 7-year-old child last week.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/loc...new_what_to_do

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## Seniorman

> 15 people watched while 2 pit bulls killed a 7-year-old child last week.
> http://www.bostonherald.com/news/loc...new_what_to_do


You can bet the farm if someone there at the scene (Mass.)  had pulled out a handgun and shot the dogs, he would now be in jail.

S.M.

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## LowKey

In Lowell MA, there was probably a pretty good chance someone there did have a gun, but didn't want to add 'felon in possession of a firearm' to dog killing charges.

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## Wise Old Owl

> the thing is this, this incident took place in the ghetto so to speak.
> in such a neighborhood and given the world we live in today.
> it's not the world we grew up in many moons ago.
> child abductions, driveby shootings and the like.
> children SHOULD be able to play freely.
> but sadly our world in many places has changed for the worse.



Children do play freely in the Ghetto- mostly in the basement with the nintendo...

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## jim Glass

> 15 people watched while 2 pit bulls killed a 7-year-old child last week.
> http://www.bostonherald.com/news/loc...new_what_to_do


I couldn't get your link to post but if I saw any human being attacked by a dog I would intervene.   Doubtful I would shoot the dog because I rarely conceal carry (except in Florida) but I would either club the dog or choke him to death with my hands.   Two dogs would require some kind of weapon though.

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## jim Glass

Received this email today from my Brother-in-Law.   Wife's sister and Brother-in-law live in Palm Coast Florida.   We visit them a couple of times while we are in Florida.  They have a very small dog.   This was shocking:

Today started kind of like a normal Sunday, I went to church and came home and started to walk my pup Dolly I went to the left from my house and got as far as the first corner That's when things changed. 
 I looked up and there was two 2 big dogs loose and they were headed my way. I stopped and turned back toward my house and got as far as the first driveway when the two dogs caught up to me

I tried to get dolly behind me so the big dogs could not hurt her. 

 Then one of the dogs was biting at me and trying to get to Dolly. Thats when I pulled out my concealed carry pistol and shot one of the dogs.

I went directly home and called 911 and told them that I shot someones dog. About 4 or 5 minutes later there was 4 or 5 squad cars down at the neighbors house and one at my house.

 They took my drivers license and my carry permit and copied Dorothys license and my friend from down the street license and carry permit and copied them.

When all was said and done the police officer gave everything back to me Dorothy and my neighbor and said I was in my rights to protect myself and my Dog.

 I carry a Ruger 380 with alternating Critacal Defense and Starfire ammo It worked great But I sure hope that nothing like this ever happens again.

Jim

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I was weedeating at my son's house one day when I caught some movement behind me.  I turned just in time to see a pit  coming full on and way too close.  I had enough time to bring the weedeater around and shoved it in her open mouth.  That pretty much stopped her in her tracks but she did not back up.  I raked it across her face and she retreated across the street.  I started walking to my truck (weedeater still running) and here she came again.  After that weedeating she was done trying to get at me for the moment.  She stood across the street watching me and when I turned the weedeater off, here she comes again. I was able to get in the truck but not by much.  She was biting the tires as I drove away.  I went home and got a pistol and went back.  I called the SO and told them that I was being attacked by a dog while mowing my grandchildren's yard and if it came in the yard again I was going to shoot it.  They never came out.  When I got back to my son's house the girl who owned the dog was in the street (I say girl, she was about 25).  When I stopped, she asked me to help her put the dog in the pen.  I told her that norlmally I would be glad to help but that today I was not going to get dog bit and I really didn't want to shoot her dog (actually I really did want to.... the dog was a menace and a danger to my grandchildren).  I started weedeating again as long as the girl was in the street the dog stayed put.  I soon finished the yard and left.  So never showed up.  

When I got home, #1 wife told me that the day before the dog had made her jump up on the picnic table with the kids and would not leave until the owner called her (nobody tells me these things when they happen).  Well, that did it.  I drove back over there and the girls father had put the dog up.  I told her that if I saaw the dog loose again I was going to kill it, that it was dangerous and had proven that it was going to bite someone if given the chance.  

I heard.... that it got out and got into my son's next door neighbor's chicken coop and killed all the chickens.  It was still in there when the neighbor got home.  The dog has not been seen nor heard form since.

I can't imagine an animal that can take a weedeater to the face and mouth and still want more, but there you have it.  As far as killing or stopping one of the dang things with your bare hands?  Well, if that's all you got, go for it.  When #1 son was into hog hunting he had pits for catch dogs.  I have seen them take a five cell maglite to the skull and it doesn't even faze them.  Three good whacks and you can shove the maglite into their jaws and pry them loose from a dead hog.  A hog in the 250# class will sling a 60# pit around like a rag doll.  I really don't think a person could beat one to death.  

These days, I'm too old and heal too slow to allow myself to get bitten by a dog.  

Alan

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## Rick

> These days, I'm too old and heal too slow to allow myself to get bitten by a dog.


I felt that way when I was in my 20s. That's why I carried Dog Stop and a 2 lb. line hammer when I had to. One of the guys I worked with had a St. Bernard jump up over a 4 ft. privacy fence and grab him by the face while he was talking to the owner. I had a chihuahua that thought he was Napoleon until he got drop kicked. And then there was the goat and the German shepherd. They were a very effective but class act. In a decade outside I never ran into two animals that had a more polished attack. They were good and I had to take my hard off to them.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I'd rather take on a German Shepherd any day than a billy goat.  A GS will bite you but a billy goat will kill you.  I had spanish goats when I was younger and they were bad enough.  My dad had boers.  A boer billy gets big and no less cantankerous than his hispanic cousins.  

Alan

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## Rick

I got out of the trunk and that German Shepherd met me barking and raising all sorts of cain but he would get no closer than about 10 feet backing up as I walked toward the house. The goat was behind me and following along. As soon as I cleared the truck that @##% goat butted me from behind. I pushed him away keeping an eye on the dog and the goat butted me from behind again only harder. I turned and took the goat by the horns. When I did the dog ran in and grabbed me by the heel of my boot just as the goat pushed and down I went. The goat jumped aside to let the shepherd jump in the middle of me. I had my Dog Stop in hand so that made short work of the dog but it would have been a much different story had I not had it. Those two had worked that scheme before. They would have been great at rolling drunks in some back alley.

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## jim Glass

My Brother-in-law made it to the local news paper, good write up:

*          The dog and another dog from the same household had a history of getting out of their yard,
                                                according to an FCSO case report. 
*
by: Jonathan Simmons   News Editor  



A 69-year-old Palm Coast man shot and killed an unleashed German Shepherd mix dog that attacked as he walked his puppy the morning of July 1, according to a Flagler County Sheriff's Office case report.

The man, James Armes, said he was walking his puppy on Westchester Lane, where he lives, when two German Shepherd dogs approached "in an aggressive manner," according to a deputy's summary of the Armes' statement.

Armes turned around to go home, but one of the two dogs came after him and his puppy near 33 Westchester Lane and tried to bite him and his puppy, he later told a deputy. 

Armes drew a Ruger LCP .380 from his pocket, "crossed his body with it and discharged the weapon at a downward angle into one of the dogs that was adjacent to his left calf," shooting the dog in the head, according to the case report. The other dog ran away. Armes was licensed to carry the gun.

Armes' wife and a friend who was at Armes' home when deputies arrived told a deputy that although they hadn't seen the incident that led to the shooting, they'd previously seen the two dogs "running loose and possibly acting in an aggressive manner," according to the case report. 

The dogs' owner, 39-year-old Michelle Wisher, said the dogs that escaped from her fenced backyard on Westcliffe Lane had gotten loose in the past. 

She said that after the dogs got loose, her daughters "ran out front of their residence and heard a loud pop in the area," according to the deputy's summary of her statement. 

Wisher drove out looking for the dogs and found the one dog, a 5-year-old female named Caroline, dead.

"After obtaining all parties' statements and the prior history of Caroline getting loose and being aggressive, James' actions were being determined to be in self-defense," the Sheriff's Office case report states. 

“This is an unfortunate, tragic neighborhood situation," Sheriff Rick Staly said in a Sheriff's Office news release. "While we never want to hear about the killing of a pet, pet owners must be responsible and watch over their animals. If you know your pet to be aggressive, it is your responsibility to keep them on your property or on a leash.”

*Only in Florida would they describe the weapon used, I like that.*
My brother-in-law is a firearm expert (ex Marine) he knows what he is doing.   We go shooting all the time when we visit.   The dog chose the wrong person to be hostile with.   Sometimes he packs a 45 ACP.   Boy, that could have been messy.   :splat:

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## crashdive123

Happy ending for your brother - sad ending for the dog - hopefully a wake up call for the owner.

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## randyt

I would not own a mean dog and never have.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

There have been six months of my adult life that I have not shared with a dog.  My responsibility is to care for the dog.  The dog's responsibility is to care for all that is mine.  They cannot molest the humans, the cats, chickens or potted plants that are under their care.  As the head of Ranch Security, the dog is help to a high standard of behavior.  They also must never "mark" any of my possessions as their own.

I have had some really great dogs.

Alan

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## davidgoldberg

you can kill a dog who attacks you- if you feel your life is in jeopardy, defend yourself and worry about the law later. most jurisdictions allow self defense. See all the posts about fighting off a police dog for that specific issue.

But, can you actually kill the dog?

Not without weapons, training and help. Unless it was a mop dog or lap dog, of course, but anything over say 1012 kg (maybe less) and you are in trouble. Thats how much a staffordshire bull terrier weighs, and although I love staffies, Ive seen one take a face full of pepper spray and keep attacking, and he was not going to stop unless he was prevented from attacking by some brave soul, who happened to be the SPCA officer with a neck loop. The SPCA guy nearly garrotted that dog before he would stop biting.

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## jim Glass

Hey David, a fellow hog hunter         :clap:   Oink

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## chiggersngrits

> I would not own a mean dog and never have.


  I feel the same way. although the dog I have now has been a real challenge. She does not tolerate other female dogs or squirrels.

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## Bardiel

In my opinion, we should not hurt the animals, rather try to calm them down in case they fight with us, but if we don't manage to tame them, we certainly have no choice and we have to fight, but not to the point of bloodshed. In general, I like animals to the fullest and I don't like to see that they are injured because my heart breaks into thousands of pieces. I have a dog and I always try to take care of him to the fullest. At first I searched for a good name for him and in the end I was lucky with this site with ****SPAMMERS R US****** because it gave me so many good ideas.

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## kyratshooter

What's the matter with a little bloodshed now and then, for a worthy cause anyway?

let me ask now, since you are in the gun section, do you happen to own one?

A gun I mean.  

Or is it just for targets and paper stuff?

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## jim Glass

WOW, where did this guy come from?

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## kyratshooter

New recruit from La-La Land.

He's watching too many Nat Geo specials.

He apparently thinks the animals can understand you when you talk to them.

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## WolfVanZandt

Hey, Vincent understands me when I talk to him...when he wants to.

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## madmax

"For he can talk with the animals.  Walk with the animals.  Grunts and squeaks and squawks with the animals...

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## WolfVanZandt

Anyone can grunt, sweak, and squawk with an animal. Take a bear...prelude to a show and meal...

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## madmax

Well you know the best protection against bears... pick a hiking partner that's slower than you.

Of course there's nothing like that...

"HUFF!"

To get the race on.

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## kyratshooter

Problem with that Max is that you and me are the slowest ones in the bunch.

Even if the bear caught you first he would finish lunch and catch me for supper before I was out of sight!

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## madmax

> Problem with that Max is that you and me are the slowest ones in the bunch.
> 
> Even if the bear caught you first he would finish lunch and catch me for supper before I was out of sight!


LMAO!  Awwww the truth hurts.

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## Rick

I don't know. At our age it might be best to just sit down and wait. Given the choice of running and being eaten by a bear....that bear thing is looking better and better.

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## madmax

Bwahaha!  I tried to run after our puppy at the last camp when he got loose.  I still have a pulled muscle in my buttocks.

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## WolfVanZandt

Seriously, though, running is the last thing you want to do (although it could come to that. Bears are not as slow as they look and they can (and will) track you for miles.

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## kyratshooter

Wolf, seriously, this is all in jest with us concerning our behavior toward bears.  

I have read all the bear advisories, all the info posted by every vegan backpacker on the trail.  How to act, how to react, how to crawl out of the woods after being mauled. 

I guarantee that if Max and I were confronted by an angry bear in the open woodlands the poor creature would think the gates of he!! had opened.  

Some people see bear as a photo op, some see them as a meal going to waste.

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## WolfVanZandt

That crawling out of the wilderness thing seems like a cool trick. DeCaprio did a decent job on that.

I've had bear and I'd have to be pretty hungry to do it again.

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## Rick

You're supposed to cook it, you know. It ain't like sushi.

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## madmax

Sometimes ya catch the bar...
Sometimes the bar catches you.

Always carry.

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## kyratshooter

> You're supposed to cook it, you know. It ain't like sushi.



It all depends on the abilities of the cook.

A bad cook can ruin a good steak and I have had fried chicken that wasn't fit to eat.

We used to cook bear like it was pork roast and it came out pretty well.  You do have to cook it very well done because it is susceptible to Trichinosis parasites, just like old fashioned free range pork.

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## WolfVanZandt

Eh, I guess a matter of taste. I like bears but I'll eat anything if I'm hungry enough.

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## kyratshooter

The answer to life, the universe and everything? = hot sauce.

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## Hummer70

In South Carolina if you are out walking and a dog comes into the road after you they can be shot.  I generally walk about five miles a day and used to ride a mountain bike 14.4 miles a day and I shot a pit bull that came into the road  while riding once.

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## drane

I was a dog handler for the Army, and I've done well in world-level IPSC combat pistol matches, and I assure you that I CAN handle 3 pits plenty fast enough, especially if two of them are distracted by my dogs.  If the the pos pit-owner wants some, I carry a spare mag.

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## Rick

I can handle five pits plenty fast if four of them are tied up and one of them is a cripple. I can also pull the pop top off a can without breaking a fingernail AND...AND shoot the right ring off a fly sitting on a ten penny nail at 25 feet with open sights. Yeah, I'm good like that.

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