# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Gardening >  Can someone explain Heirloom seeds to me?

## jc1234

I have been really frustrated, especially with my tomatoes that I can never get second generation plants to grow even after I plant seeds from what I grow, or bury the entire vegetable.  Im still relatively new to gardening although I thought I knew the basics.  I was talking to a friend of mine and he said that I needed to buy Heirloom seeds if I want to be able to produce plants from the seeds of the vegetables that I grow.  He stated that the seeds sold in most stores are altered so that they cannot produce a second generation from the vegetables that they produce.

Its this true?  If so, is this a case of altering the seeds to turn more profit by forcing people to buy year after year, or is it some mandate by the govt to prevent invasive species of plants (I cant imagine any govt agency would think that far ahead since typically, they are quite reactive to situations like that).

Can someone clarify for me please?  Also , where is a good website to buy these Heirloom seeds from?

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## Winnie

If you want to save your own seed grow varieties that are not F1 hybrids. If it does not say that on the packet, then you can save seed and the progeny will grow true.  Heirloom seeds as I know them are ancient varieties. You don't need to grow Heirloom varieties to produce your own seeds. If you grow more than one variety of anything, then you need to prevent cross pollination which result in non viable seed. HTH
Here's a basic "how to" on saving seed.

http://www.realseeds.co.uk/seedsavinginfo.html

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## nell67

Heirloom seeds are seeds taken directly from original (not hybrid) plants,and will grow and produce fruits and veggies.

Hybrids are developed to be hardier (able to grow in less than ideal conditions and areas they would not grow othewrwise)they can tolerate heat,cooler weather,drought etc. better than heirloom as well as more disease resistant,they also produce a larger yield generally.The down side to that is they only produce fruits from the 1st generation of seed,saving seed from those plants will generally grow a plant but not produce fruits as they are sterile.

You can liken the hybrid seed to a mule, the cross of a horse and a jackass that is hardier and stronger than its parents,but not able to pass on it genes to another generation.

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## Rick

Great explanations, gals!!

The only thing I'd add is you need to understand the difference between Self-Pollination and Open-Pollination. 

Self-Pollination means the parent plant is able to reproduce by itself. The off spring are genetic clones of the parent plant since only one set of genes is involved. If the flower can self pollinate and can produce viable seeds then it's considered Self-Compatible. 

Good examples are some legumes (peanuts), peas and sunflowers. The up side is if the parent displays good qualities then these will be passed to the child. The down side is there is only one set of genes and the inbreeding can be a disadvantage when new diseases spring up or when planted in different geographic locations because of different soils and pests.  

Open-Pollination is just the opposite. It requires two parent plants to produce the offspring. This means there will almost always be some variation to the child. You might have a great parent plant and be sorely disappointed in the child the next season because the cross of genetics produced an inferior child. Most heirlooms are Open-Pollination and are very good at adapting to local conditions of soil and pests. Rice and tomatoes are good examples of Open-Pollination.

While the term Heirloom implies you will have viable seeds succeeding years there is no guarantee that the plants produced will be as good as the parent.

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## Chris

http://www.halcyon.com/tmend/define.htm

Sometimes the heirloom label just denotes an old hybrid, but still a hybrid, that may not grow true. It isn't as if there is a government body regulating use of the word for standards or anything.

So make sure you're getting what you actually want to be getting.

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## BENESSE

How do you properly store H. seeds and what's
max time they can last like that?
(are there freeze dried seeds that can last 20-30 yrs the way food can?)

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## Winnie

If seeds are stored in cool, dry conditions they can remain viable for a very long time. Some seeds at the RHS Seed Bank at Kew Gardens are in excess of 100yrs old and still viable!

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## jc1234

Thanks for all the responses.  Im still a bit confused though.  It sounds like some people are saying that I can grow new plants and new fruit / veg from those plants and some are saying that I can grow new plants, but will likely not grow new fruit / veg?

Maybe Im just misunderstanding?

I grow tomatoes, cucumber, asparagus, a few cabbages, and carrots.  The only things I hoped to come back was my asparagus plant (which got eaten by something even though its inside a big fence), my cucumbers that I planted the seeds of the cucumbers from the year before and the tomatoes.  I replanted about a hundred cucumber seeds and about as many tomato seeds in groups of 5, as well as had a number of tomatoes rot cause I couldnt pick them fast enough, so I let them reabsorb into the ground.


All that and I didnt get a single plant back.  This was the first time I didnt just replant by hand.  I really thought Id get a few plants back, but nothing.

So Im trying to figure out if this was due to the seeds.  If I had gotten a tomato plant back, would tomatoes have grown, or am I just a really bad gardner??

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## Winnie

You've lost me JC, but I'll try and answer. Firstly, everything that you mention, apart from the Asparagus are known as annuals. this means they sprout, grow and produce in one season. To save your own seed, you do need to go through a series of steps to keep the seed viable. Also you need to sow the seed at the right time of year, cucmber and tomato in particular are not frost hardy, so if you planted them outside they may well have been killed off by frosts. I'm pretty certain that's what had happened to the tomatoes you left to rot, that and you probably has mice feasting away on the seed. They can sniff out seeds like no tomorrow, they're particularly fond of peas and beans.
As for getting tomatoes from a plant had it grown, again it would depend on the time of year. I hope I've read your questions right and this has helped.

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## jc1234

> You've lost me JC, but I'll try and answer. Firstly, everything that you mention, apart from the Asparagus are known as annuals. this means they sprout, grow and produce in one season. To save your own seed, you do need to go through a series of steps to keep the seed viable. Also you need to sow the seed at the right time of year, cucmber and tomato in particular are not frost hardy, so if you planted them outside they may well have been killed off by frosts. I'm pretty certain that's what had happened to the tomatoes you left to rot, that and you probably has mice feasting away on the seed. They can sniff out seeds like no tomorrow, they're particularly fond of peas and beans.
> As for getting tomatoes from a plant had it grown, again it would depend on the time of year. I hope I've read your questions right and this has helped.


Yes, thanks.  That helps a lot.  I'll read more about the process of saving the seeds and replanting.

Is their any benefit to Heirloom seeds in my case then?  As far as the soil.  We have very mineral rich soil with a high water table.  Things seem to grow pretty easily around here in general.  It seems like some people will go through a lot of trouble to get the Heirloom seeds vs. what I can buy in our feed store.  Would I notice a big difference in the fruit and vegetables produced from those seeds vs the standard seeds I buy?

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## ravenscar

my four o clocks are  seeding hevily year after year, and i bought them  from ferrymorse.  im always  weeding out the youngins.

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## Old GI

monsanto ........

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## crashdive123

> Yes, thanks.  That helps a lot.  I'll read more about the process of saving the seeds and replanting.
> 
> Is their any benefit to Heirloom seeds in my case then?  As far as the soil.  We have very mineral rich soil with a high water table.  Things seem to grow pretty easily around here in general.  It seems like some people will go through a lot of trouble to get the Heirloom seeds vs. what I can buy in our feed store.  Would I notice a big difference in the fruit and vegetables produced from those seeds vs the standard seeds I buy?


You may or may not notice any big differences - I suspect not, since you are fairly new to gardening.  Where the big difference will come in is if you want to harvest seeds to have an ongoing and ever lasting supply.  Heirlooms are the only way to be sure that what you plant will turn out the same as what you previously had.  Of course this means that you must properly harvest the seeds in order to ensue a successful follow-on crop..

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## ravenscar

since we are talking seeds, how do i garner seeds from blackberries?

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## jc1234

> You may or may not notice any big differences - I suspect not, since you are fairly new to gardening.  Where the big difference will come in is if you want to harvest seeds to have an ongoing and ever lasting supply.  Heirlooms are the only way to be sure that what you plant will turn out the same as what you previously had.  Of course this means that you must properly harvest the seeds in order to ensue a successful follow-on crop..


Well it would be nice to just buy them once and then be able to save money year after year.  Im not really picky about much other than my tomatoes.  I am pretty picky about the flavor I like, so once I find something that I really enjoy eating, Id like to have consistency.

Id really like to try a few rows of corn too...I dont know the first thing about corn other than you need two rows of differing sexes or something?  We have tons of people who grow acres of corn here, so Im sure someone could help me out.  I would just like about 8 total corn (plants???) I dont have a ton of space to graden in because of the deer.  I have about a 50 x 20 ft patch fenced off that is deer safe and keeps most of the rabbits out.

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## ravenscar

blocks of 8 rows os best for pollination

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## Old GI

> since we are talking seeds, how do i garner seeds from blackberries?


Pick them out of your teeth.  Jesty joshin'.

Some farmers are fighting some issues over GMO.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Loc...l-seeds-stalls

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## crashdive123

I have not harvested blackberry seeds, but a quick search on how to harvest blackberry seeds yields quite a few results that appear credible.

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## ravenscar

i found a more productive way to produce nem blackberry plants

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## crashdive123

> i found a more productive way to produce nem blackberry plants


Is it a secret?

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## kyratshooter

> blocks of 8 rows os best for pollination


Yes, you plant corn in clusters or blocks.  Two rows will net nothing for the season.

A couple of years ago I planted a special garden for the grandson.  I did a "Three Sisters" plot.  I raked up six hills of dirt about 3 feet in diameter and planted the hills with corn, beans and squash.  I used Indian corn, pinto beans and butternut, acorn and pumpkins for the squash.  I did them all with nonhybred seed just so we could save the seed and plant every year.  He had to take granma out to check his garden every visit.  My wife died that summer, so last year he planted "Granma's Garden" in his own back yard.  

If you are new to gardening check with your county extension agent.  They are a wealth of free advice and info.  My agent will take time to actually circle nonhybred seed in the wishbooks if you ask. After the first of the year they start having beginners classes in my area.

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## Rick

JC - Most gardeners will plant a variety of tomato plants so they can harvest from early, mid summer and late summer fruiting varieties. The problem with this method is if the plants flower at the same time then cross pollination can occur. I grow Brandywine heirloom tomatoes and I segregate them away from other tomatoes to reduce the chance of cross pollination. That way my succeeding generations will be the same. 

To harvest seeds, look for fruits the exhibit the traits you want then gather seeds from only those plants. The big difference in heirlooms is generally in flavor. They are usually pretty ugly but taste wonderful. It seems we've bred tomatoes for transport, storage and uniformity and lost the flavor in the process. In any case, harvesting seeds is actually fermenting them. Here's a good article that tells how. It's really simple just time consuming. 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...5/ai_64702592/

The difference in hybrid and heirloom is the hybrid won't produce a plant the second year. The seeds are sterile.

Oh, yeah. On storage....I store my seeds in ziplock bags with a note inside on plant variety and harvest date. I keep them in the refrigerator and I've successfully planted seeds that were 4 and 5 years old.

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## jc1234

> Yes, you plant corn in clusters or blocks.  Two rows will net nothing for the season.
> 
> A couple of years ago I planted a special garden for the grandson.  I did a "Three Sisters" plot.  I raked up six hills of dirt about 3 feet in diameter and planted the hills with corn, beans and squash.  I used Indian corn, pinto beans and butternut, acorn and pumpkins for the squash.  I did them all with nonhybred seed just so we could save the seed and plant every year.  He had to take granma out to check his garden every visit.  My wife died that summer, so last year he planted "Granma's Garden" in his own back yard.  
> 
> If you are new to gardening check with your county extension agent.  They are a wealth of free advice and info.  My agent will take time to actually circle nonhybred seed in the wishbooks if you ask. After the first of the year they start having beginners classes in my area.


I might try some corn outside of my fenced garden area then, but Im betting between the deer and whatever other critters are out there, they wont survive.




> JC - Most gardeners will plant a variety of tomato plants so they can harvest from early, mid summer and late summer fruiting varieties. The problem with this method is if the plants flower at the same time then cross pollination can occur. I grow Brandywine heirloom tomatoes and I segregate them away from other tomatoes to reduce the chance of cross pollination. That way my succeeding generations will be the same. 
> 
> To harvest seeds, look for fruits the exhibit the traits you want then gather seeds from only those plants. The big difference in heirlooms is generally in flavor. They are usually pretty ugly but taste wonderful. It seems we've bred tomatoes for transport, storage and uniformity and lost the flavor in the process. In any case, harvesting seeds is actually fermenting them. Here's a good article that tells how. It's really simple just time consuming. 
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...5/ai_64702592/
> 
> The difference in hybrid and heirloom is the hybrid won't produce a plant the second year. The seeds are sterile.
> 
> Oh, yeah. On storage....I store my seeds in ziplock bags with a note inside on plant variety and harvest date. I keep them in the refrigerator and I've successfully planted seeds that were 4 and 5 years old.


Cool thanks.  I will definitely go heirloom on the tomatoes then.  Im very picky about my tomatoes.

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## LowKey

Hybrid seeds aren't necessarily mules. Quite often most aren't. You can get viable seed from a hybrid plant fruit that has cross pollinated. It just probably won't resemble the parent plant in the next generation. It may not even resemble the parent plants of the hybrid. But you should get some germination.

The seeds that are put out by the likes of Monsanto that don't produce viable seed the next generation are called Terminators. The plant grows and produces fruit and even seeds, but the seeds are genetically rigged not to germinate so you have to go back to Monsanto for more seed. It will be a tragedy if this gene enters the wild in any form.

Heirlooms can be old Hybrids as Chris pointed out. If you look for open-pollinated sources you can be fairly certain you aren't getting hybrid seed. If you buy from an established company they are fairly careful to prevent crossing in their heirloom open-pollinated stock. If you buy from a seed swap, beware.

Don't confuse open-pollinated with cross-pollinated. Some plants, and especially fruit trees, require a different variety to cross-pollinate the flowers in order to set fruit. They don't self-pollinate. This means the seeds are naturally hybrids. That's why most fruit trees you buy are grafts. Self-fertile means the same plant has male and female flowers on it or the flowers have both male and female parts. Squash and cucumbers for instance. These plants can also be open-pollinated from other plants of the same variety or from other plants in the same family.

It gets really tricky saving seed in a small garden. As Rick said, you have to isolate the plants you grow or only grow one variety at a time. Winter squashes will cross with summer squashes. Melons will cross. Watermelons can cross with cucumbers. You can see where it could be a big mess.

Some plants are biennials and require two seasons to set seed (like carrots, onions and celery to name a few). In cold climates you have to protect the root stock from freezing or you won't get the second year plant for the seed set. You either mulch heavily or in extreme freeze conditions, lift the roots, pot em up or heel em in, and keep them in a cool place (like a root cellar.)

Asparagus and Rhubarb are perennials. It should come up every year from eyes on the rootstock. It is best not to harvest all of it though. Let some plants go to feed the roots for next year. Don't begin harvesting until the second or third year after planting. You propagate both by division of clumps when the plants fill out their bed.

I can't get tomato and squash seeds to quit growing. The heat of the compost pile just doesn't kill them so every spring they sprout everywhere. They will be killed by a heavy frost and you might not recognize the young tomatoes in the two-leaf stage. 

Corn is wind pollinated. You have to plant it in blocks and it's a good idea, with a small garden, to be sure of your prevailing wind direction. Don't plant along a fence or beside a house or outbuilding.

Raspberries and blackberries these days are hybrids and some of them may actually be mules. Multiply by slips (root cuttings) or by clump division. You won't get much from blackberry seed unless they are the wild type. Then you just soak em in water until the pulp turns to mush, wash em in a sieve and let them dry a bit. I'd plant them right away. They may need a cold treatment in order to germinate so planting in fall and leaving overwinter may increase your chances.

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## Rick

+1 Lowkey!!

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## jc1234

Wow, thanks for all of that information Lowkey.  I have lots of studying up to do.  I will plan out my garden better for spring, thanks again everyone.

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## ravenscar

@crash
no, its burying the tip in dirt. i think its called airlayering, but i could have my terms wrong

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## Rick

Check with your local county extension service. They probably offer a Master Gardener's class. Most do offer it. Ours was one one night a week for seven weeks (I think it was 7) and you learn a ton. If you want to carry the Master Gardener title then you have to do 100 hours of community service and renew each year (?). If not, then the information is still great to have. I've never renewed so I can't claim the title.

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## jc1234

> Check with your local county extension service. They probably offer a Master Gardener's class. Most do offer it. Ours was one one night a week for seven weeks (I think it was 7) and you learn a ton. If you want to carry the Master Gardener title then you have to do 100 hours of community service and renew each year (?). If not, then the information is still great to have. I've never renewed so I can't claim the title.


I'll have to look around.  I dont recall seeing anything in the papers, but that would be great. There is lots of info around at the garden shows for growing flowers, but havent found as much for growing veggies.

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## Rick

Here the Master Gardens have a veggie sale every year. It includes both heirloom varieties and the best of the commercial varieties. Sometimes, the only place you can acquire specific varieties is at the annual sale.

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## 2dumb2kwit

I thought I heard somewhere, that to be considered "heirloom" seed needed to go back 100 years. Is this correct?

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## Rick

There are many schools of thought on what heirlooms are. Many say pre-1950. Some say 100+ years. There is no government agency assigned to define heirlooms....yet.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> There are many schools of thought on what heirlooms are. Many say pre-1950. Some say 100+ years. There is no government agency assigned to define heirlooms....yet.


 Thanks Rick.

I just googled it.....I think my brain is full, now. LOL :Alucard:

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## ravenscar

> There are many schools of thought on what heirlooms are. Many say pre-1950. Some say 100+ years. There is no government agency assigned to define heirlooms....yet.


Future newscast " tonight at ten, we take a look at  congress's decision to further regulate seed sales, stay tuned after NCIS"

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