# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Gardening >  Starting a New Garden

## woodsman86

We will be moving into our new house soon and it happens to have some good soil for a garden. So this will be my first crack at a garden not in a tote bin. I know the basics, but thought I would start a conversation looking for suggestions on the best way to start without having to dig thru 100s of post. 

What are some best practices for starting a new garden? (i.e. raised beds, soil prep, fencing, layout, ect...) Keep in mind I live in lower WesternNC, but it does not get prolonged freezing so I should be able to work the ground some before spring. Since it does not get a hard freeze here, I will also be interested in what can be planted for a fall harvest and also stay over the winter.

Thanks in advance.

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## Rick

I think this fall should be devoted to making certain your soil is good. Take a sample to your county extension office and let them analyze it. They will have soil sample kits you can use with instructions on how to take the sample. Here's some information for you. 

http://durham.ces.ncsu.edu/files/library/32/UNH%205.PDF

Some of the counties are charging fees through the winter and the dates appear to vary. One county I looked at is starting 11-1. This one is 12-1 so find out when your county is charging so you can get in ahead of the fee. 

http://rutherford.ces.ncsu.edu/2013/...sampling-fees/

Once you have your results back you will know what amendments your need to be make if any. Then you can work on making certain your soil is really good. Talk to the folks at CES and ask them what garden problems are most common in your area and what to do to avoid them. Knowing what diseases and pests you will be faced with and how to avoid or deal with them will increase your harvest and help ensure you have strong healthy plants. 

It's also helpful to know what kind of soil you have. How much is loam, sand, rock, etc. There is an easy test to find this out. It's called the Mason Jar Test. Here's a step by step on how to perform it. 

http://www.todayshomeowner.com/diy-s...for-your-yard/

Here's a table that tells you how your soil handles water. 

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Once you know what you are dealing with then you can determine what you need to add, how much and how best to do it.

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## woodsman86

Thanks Rick! As always, you are a wealth of information.

Looks like in Polk County, I need to get my sample in before December 1st. According to the state site, only about a week turnaround for results. I will hopefully have time to stop in to the county extension this coming week. Conveinant as it is only a few blocks away, advantage of living in the county seat with a wopping population of approx 800. I hope they are more up-to-date than their website, but seems most this county's websites are outdated.

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## Rick

You might also talk to them about their Master Gardener program. It's usually one night a week for 12 or 16 weeks. I don't remember how long it was. Then you have volunteer time to complete. At least in our county there were several ways you could volunteer and it was over the course of a couple of months (3, 4, 5?) so you didn't have to get the volunteer work done in a couple of week-ends. It has been several years since my wife and I completed the program and I just don't remember the specifics. One of the ways we could volunteer was to work in a community garden on the 4H grounds. That was really helpful because you network with some really knowledgeable people and pick up a lot of information.

You'll gain a wealth of information on plants, diseases, soil, pests and a lot more. When finished you'll have a 3 ring binder about 4 inches thick with reference material. Just as importantly, as long as you maintain your Master Gardener credentials you'll receive updates from your state's extension service. They are really helpful, usually one page, that focuses on one topic and covers it very well. Things like a particular disease or insect that is causing problems in your area and how to deal with it. That type of thing.

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## gryffynklm

Rick +1 on the master gardener classes. I will be taking it in the next group. I just finished the Master Naturalist class and have some volunteer hours to complete in the spring. Definitely a good  program.

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## woodsman86

I guess I really need to start a to-do list. Master Gardener sounds fun and I am sure the networking would be very beneficial.

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## Solar Geek

Woodsman 86 if your soil is no good and too large an area to "amend", you can do either lasagna gardening or the Ruth Stout method. We built on stone and sand and clay. The the topsoil they put down was more foxtail (huge weed) than grass seed. Short of scraping it all up (how?) and then amending the "soil" for 3 years we were stuck.

So we had 5" regular garden soil put down all over after cutting the foxtail; then 25# fresh straw all over; then strips of "raised beds" by having 3 truckloads of compost put down in strips 4'x6' or7' long with a 5' walkway down the center. 2' walkways between each strip. Not too costly; each bale of the straw (the large circle ones) was $40 and we used 14; 3 large truck loads of dirt (would've needed that anyway) and then 3 truckloads of compost - think they were $185/truck but maybe less. This also was used to plant 10 trees in a separate orchard so the cost was split up.

Now, I have smothered weeds, fresh beds ready for spring and with some fall plantings; and peace of mind. If we had had a tractor we could've done all the work but had to hire someone as DH doesn't want to get tractor till next spring.

We will NEVER TILL this and weeds just get raked up as everything is so loose and you never walk on the beds as you can reach in from each side. 
Hope this helps in thinking process. We will continue to add our own compost as everything settles. SG

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## woodsman86

Thanks for the idea. At my current place, that would had been the only solution as it is all clay. I built some raised beds for my mother (much smaller scale than my intent) and she filled them in a similiar fashion. Her house also sits atop a mountain of rock and clay. The new house is down the mountain in the valley, so we are hoping the soil will be actual soil. Currently there is a little less than acre off the side off the house of very lush green grass, so hopefully there is some sustainability.

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## Solar Geek

One other thing I meant to add was this house we built is for "aging in place" including the gardens. I don't want to kneel on hard packed ground each day; also don't want to weed everyday; and I also wanted space to experiment with vegetables, berries, hops (DH wants to try making beer), flowers and such. 

My beds do not have any edging or box as last time I did that and it hurt to kneel or lean over them. I plan to get one if those wheely seats/tool wagons Jackie Clay Of "Backwoods Home" magazine uses to move between the row beds. 

Ok just wanted to clarify these are not wood or plastic surrounded raised beds- we joke they look like graves  :Smile:

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## Rick

Another thought. I don't know what your yard looks like but remember that a tree is as large or larger underground as it is above ground in most cases. The roots of some trees may be 2-3 times the distance of the overhead branches especially if the water table is shallow. Make certain you are well away from nearby trees or your garden will be competing with the tree for soil moisture and nutrients.

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## Winnie

As you know, I started an allotment garden from scratch this year. First thing I did was to take measurements. Then made decisions on where the paths, compost bins and rain barrels were to go and whether I wanted fruit and other permanent plants. Then I divided the plot into four to rotate the crops and then did a soil test, ordered in a ton(literally) of manure and I'm digging for victory at the moment. 
I had raised beds at my previous house, and they were great. but very hungry. I am going back to traditional gardening this time, it's a lot of effort to start with, but the rewards are well worth it. 
A lot will depend on the state of your plot now. Is it overgrown, are there a lot of perennial weeds or just annuals, do you want to be all organic or use chemicals.
I think the gardeners here all have a different method of growing and maintenance. 
A few things to be aware of.
Be careful where you buy your manure from. some Herbicides will go through an animals gut intact and kill your crops.
Don't use treated wood for any beds or borders, the treatment will leach into the soil and some are not people friendly.
Make a plan.
Keep a record of everything you do from year to year. I take photos every time I make a change.
Grow different varieties of one type of vegetable and keep records of how well each variety performs and whether you liked it. 
Don't get disheartened if you have failures, something always makes up for it.
Most of all, enjoy your garden. It's a great way of keeping fit and improving the health of the whole family.

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## Rick

Success is a learning experience with produce. Failure is a learning experience without produce. The first one is funner but the last one sometimes teaches you more than the first. 

A ton of manure is a lot of shXX and a crappy job of having to work it in. That kind of work stinks. (I slay myself)

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## woodsman86

> One other thing I meant to add was this house we built is for "aging in place" including the gardens. I don't want to kneel on hard packed ground each day; also don't want to weed everyday; and I also wanted space to experiment with vegetables, berries, hops (DH wants to try making beer), flowers and such. 
> 
> My beds do not have any edging or box as last time I did that and it hurt to kneel or lean over them. I plan to get one if those wheely seats/tool wagons Jackie Clay Of "Backwoods Home" magazine uses to move between the row beds. 
> 
> Ok just wanted to clarify these are not wood or plastic surrounded raised beds- we joke they look like graves


I am sort of liking the grave idea  :Smile:   Seems a good way to sort of have raised beds without all the extra stuff. Thanks for the input.

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## woodsman86

> Another thought. I don't know what your yard looks like but remember that a tree is as large or larger underground as it is above ground in most cases. The roots of some trees may be 2-3 times the distance of the overhead branches especially if the water table is shallow. Make certain you are well away from nearby trees or your garden will be competing with the tree for soil moisture and nutrients.


There are trees for sure, probably the youngest would be 40-50 years oaks and spruce. I want to say I have a plot on the property line that should be far enough away to avoid the dense roots.

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## woodsman86

> As you know, I started an allotment garden from scratch this year. First thing I did was to take measurements. Then made decisions on where the paths, compost bins and rain barrels were to go and whether I wanted fruit and other permanent plants. Then I divided the plot into four to rotate the crops and then did a soil test, ordered in a ton(literally) of manure and I'm digging for victory at the moment. 
> I had raised beds at my previous house, and they were great. but very hungry. I am going back to traditional gardening this time, it's a lot of effort to start with, but the rewards are well worth it. 
> A lot will depend on the state of your plot now. Is it overgrown, are there a lot of perennial weeds or just annuals, do you want to be all organic or use chemicals.
> I think the gardeners here all have a different method of growing and maintenance. 
> A few things to be aware of.
> Be careful where you buy your manure from. some Herbicides will go through an animals gut intact and kill your crops.
> Don't use treated wood for any beds or borders, the treatment will leach into the soil and some are not people friendly.
> Make a plan.
> Keep a record of everything you do from year to year. I take photos every time I make a change.
> ...


It is all maintained grass/yard weeds at this point. I am not looking forward to the manure, maybe some neighborhood kids want to make a few dollars. I have noted some of your other suggestions, thanks!

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## woodsman86

> Success is a learning experience with produce. Failure is a learning experience without produce. The first one is funner but the last one sometimes teaches you more than the first. 
> 
> A ton of manure is a lot of shXX and a crappy job of having to work it in. That kind of work stinks. (I slay myself)


ahhh...O I'm sorry Rick, did you say something funny again?

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## crashdive123

Again????????

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## Rick

You know, you guys are gonna mess around and hurt my feelings some day.

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## woodsman86

> You know, you guys are gonna mess around and hurt my feelings some day.


Well I'd hope so, there would be no other point to it if we didn't  :Banana:

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## hunter63

Our yard was scraped of down to clay to build the house.....idea was to sell you your own dirt back...

Anyway, the had been a swing set that left a hole on the yard.....we were the second owners.....and was hard as a rock.

Actually started the first garden with cheap bagged soil, not potting  soil but just black dirt.
Laid the bag out, cut then open and had a raised garden (kinda).....

Well, that kinda softened up the hard pan and was able to till in at the end of the year.

35 years of amending with leave mold, compost, sand, gypsum (clay break up) and manure.....aged doesn't stink.....some really nice soil now.
Added some fresh cow flop on the garden one year on Mothers Day...neighbors were having a picnic...for a awile...won't do that again.

Certain trees to near will kill off your plants...so stay away from trees if possible.

Low plants in the front, tall in back.
Remember to have fun.

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## woodsman86

Well I have some mushroom compost and screened top soil coming tomorrow. Once I got out on the property, I discovered it was all fill dirt. So I am several days into getting it tilled and changed some of my garden plans because of it. I am planning to amend the soil and then send off a sample for testing.

I did get a nice visit by a red-shouldered hawk, but was unable to find my good camera in time to get close-ups. He took off from my trees and flew into the neighbor's place. 

IMG_9142 - Copy.jpgIMG_91421.jpgIMG_91441.jpgIMG_91481.jpgIMG_91491.jpg

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## Rick

You might want to send off a sample first so you know what needs to be amended.

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## woodsman86

I thought about that, but the soil is really rough and mostly clay and rocks. I probably have a couple more days of raking and tilling to get all the junk out of it. Then I am going to till in compost and soil in equal parts until I have nice loose dirt mounded up. Of course the rain today did not help anything.

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## Winnie

Good to know you're making progress. I have heavy clay too. After one of the chaps at the allotment field rotovated it for me I went from concrete blocks to clay pebbles and that's about as good as it's going to get without many more years of hard graft. We'll have to compare notes at the end of the season. :Wink:

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## hunter63

I love the mushroom mulch.....The stuff I used to get was a bag about the size of a 55 gal drum....about 1/2 full...they said a yard?....but was only $25 cents a bag...to get rid of it.

Wad 1/3 composted cow manure, 1/3 sandy dirt and 1/3 grounds up straw........You couldn't ask for a better amendment for clay.
I would drive out to the mushroom farm and load up my little Toyota pick up.....for like $5 bucks....LOL.

Even got some mushrooms out of the garden.

Then came the fateful day....I drove out there to find a semi trailer, hammer mill and a bagging machine......some one had bought all of the used, was kinda grinding it up, and re-bagging it for sale......The end of a good thing.

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## woodsman86

> Good to know you're making progress. I have heavy clay too. After one of the chaps at the allotment field rotovated it for me I went from concrete blocks to clay pebbles and that's about as good as it's going to get without many more years of hard graft. We'll have to compare notes at the end of the season.


Tilling has been great fun...my thighs are thoroughly bruised from riding it like a bull. I am using the same tiller my father rebuilt over 20 years ago for my mother's garden, so no modern comforts but it gets the job done. The delivery came, so now it is just a matter of mixing and spreading it out. I still have not nailed down a list of what I am going to plant. 




> I love the mushroom mulch.....The stuff I used to get was a bag about the size of a 55 gal drum....about 1/2 full...they said a yard?....but was only $25 cents a bag...to get rid of it.
> 
> Wad 1/3 composted cow manure, 1/3 sandy dirt and 1/3 grounds up straw........You couldn't ask for a better amendment for clay.
> I would drive out to the mushroom farm and load up my little Toyota pick up.....for like $5 bucks....LOL.
> 
> Even got some mushrooms out of the garden.
> 
> Then came the fateful day....I drove out there to find a semi trailer, hammer mill and a bagging machine......some one had bought all of the used, was kinda grinding it up, and re-bagging it for sale......The end of a good thing.


It has killed me to buy compost and dirt for the first time. Unfortunately everyone that advertises cheap stuff around here doesn't advertise they don't know how to answer a phone or return a call. I ended up going with one of the retail places and it cost me about 4x as much but at least it is all nicely screened and clean. I read a lot of good stuff about mushroom compost, a little bit goes a long way they say. I live amongst about a dozen horse farms, so I plan to have some manure dropped off to compost for next year. Finding it fresh for a small delivery fee is easy but not what I needed to get started this year.

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## woodsman86

First, I will make an effort to take some pictures and upload them tomorrow. We are in the regular 70s-80s now, so I got some seeds in the ground. I have two row prepared so far. The first one I used some giant bamboo from the property as stakes and ran wires across them to hold tomatoes and peas. I saw a youtube video where a guy did this instead of cages and seemed to work well for tomatoes. So I have a mix of large heirloom, large hybrid, cherry tomatoes, and peas planted. The second bed I planted corn, watermelon, cantaloupe, and pumpkins. I covered it with plastic to keep it nice and warm, so hopefully there will be some sprouts in a few days. 

When I get the next bed prepared, I plan to add another set of poles for beans. I also have radish and beets in the plan. I have yet to decide what else to plant and will still have another bed to prepare. 

On the edge of the property I have grapes, blackberries, raspberries, an apple, peach, and plum tree all planted. They seem to be doing well and there is already some noticeable growth. 

I will update when there is some new progress.

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## Winnie

That's great! My garden is ahead of you in preparation, but our temps are not high enough to plant out the more tender veg. I hope to update with a few pics myself in a day or so.

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## crashdive123

I got a late start this year due to the cooler temps, but everything is blooming now.

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## woodsman86

Just a few cell phone pics. Have a few days off, so hopefully I will get the rest done. 

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## roxanwright

I am planting some tulips in my garden. But I would like to ask where to place them.I am thinking about placing them near the pond.

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## Rick

Are you folks going into fall down there? Tulip bulbs do best planted in the fall in well drained soil. Ours are nearing the end of their blooming season. The blooms are just starting to wilt and will probably fall off in another week. You will be okay near a pond, if that's where you want to plant them, as long as the ground isn't wet. Tulip bulbs will simply rot in wet ground.

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## woodsman86

Well, I got a bit of ambition and ended up double digging my next bed. It was not the most fun I have had, but was really pleased with the results. I will probably do it to my next bed as well. I wanted to have very loosed and debris free soil for my root vegetables. I also managed to get away with burning the eyesore left by the previous owners. I was happy to find a mound of composted logs underneath the burned burned brush. My little guy was there to help me all day when he wasn't chasing butterflies. I took a picture of a cutaway of the original soils, the sifted layer, and finally the sifted compost/topsoil just to show what I am trying.

I do have corn and pumpkins sprouting, just waiting on watermelons and catelopes to reveal themselves. I also got my sweet and hot peppers in the ground yesterday.

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## hunter63

I would say you are doing well......good looking dirt after the double dig.

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## Rick

I agree. By the way, I think the newer child labor laws forbid children under 4 operating machinery. Just one more example of governmental interference. I could be wrong of course.

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## hunter63

You are gonna need ROP and belts.....LOL

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## 1stimestar

Oh I am so jealous of you all with your gardening weather.  I can hardly wait!  But we rarely dare to put anything in the ground before June 1.  I'm waiting on a warm weekend to even start the garden and finagle my grey water sand filter.  I hope it works!

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## Rick

If you want to gain a few precious weeks then you can either build a frame and cover it with plastic. You can use just about anything that will bend into a half moon shape so you can drape the plastic over it. Just make it about six inches from top to ground so you have a small place to warm and make sure it's where the sun can hit it. You'll be surprised what you can do with a mini me greenhouse.

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## woodsman86

Thanks fellas. The 2yo needs a lap but does help driving, the 6yo has it on his own now in 1st gear. He helps when not in school and is more than happy to pick up sticks when he gets to drive  :Yawnb: 

I saw Walmart use the same concept with bent pvc pipe on their plants when we were still having the in between weather. I may try something like that next year when I am more prepared.

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## woodsman86

Here is my recent update...I also have lettuce and beet sprouts since taking these pictures. 

Made sure to add a picture of my garden warriors  :Smile:

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## woodsman86

The rest of the pics...

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## Rick

That first pic is just the berries. They'll be laughing at that when they are 25 or so. My kids just wen through some old pictures Saturday when they were over. Great job on the garden. You'll forget all the hard work when you start harvesting the food.

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## Winnie

That's some serious help you've got there! 
All my tender veg is still in the greenhouse, and I have major soil envy! Everything looks fantastic.
I must update the allotment thread. I had a battle with flea beetle on the brassicas last week, there were some losses and I was reduced to chemical warfare, I'm afraid.

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## hunter63

DD and SIL garden here in Louisiana is going full tilt boogie........They picked about 4 bushels of green beans, bartered w/a neighbor,  a bushel of beans for 10 jars of pickles and jelly from last season.

Cherry tomatoes already ripening.

Guess they need to get the garden in early before the hot weather starts.

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## crashdive123

Great progress and cool help.  While they'll appreciate the pics when they are older........you can blackmail them with the pics when they are teens.

Dad:  Now remember...home by 10:00 otherwise the new love of your life will see those pics.

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## woodsman86

I need to get some updated pictures of the progress. Shannon Valerie was born on the 27th, so I have been busy taking care of the boys while momma gets settled again. The garden has been backseated to only maintenance. 

The garden has been battling and winning for the most part. First my oldest decided to stop the pumpkin plants, they came back and then got eaten, and now back again with some buds. The tomatoes have been buffeted twice now, but survived and full of green tomatoes. I lost all the lettuce and beets to another buffet compliments of the groundhogs which are currently being hunted by my brother-in-law. If only I thought I could get away with discharging a firearm in city limits, that problem would be solved. My lovely neighbors think they are cute and been feeding them...I would like to feed them to the groundhogs. The peppers are doing great and looks like I should have a harvest within a month of bell and jalapeno. Corn is over waist high and not slowing. Cantaloupe have also come back from being eaten but no buds yet. Peas are gone, but I am planning to replant them with a bed of beans after I get the lettuce and beets going again. 

Hope everyone else is having a successful garden this year.

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## crashdive123

Congrats on the birth of Shannon Valerie.

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## Rick

Congratulations!!!! I'm glad mom and daughter are doing well.

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## Winnie

Congratulations! Glad to hear all are well.

I feel your pain on losing plants. This year has been a constant battle with slug, snails and flea beetle. I lost a few things and have replanted, others are hanging on in there and opefully will pull through. Your weather is obviously much better than mine as I have only just planted out Squashes, Pumpkins and beans. Look forward to comparing.

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## hunter63

Congrats , man....to you and Mom and family.

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## Rick

Had to replant cukes, zukes and beans yesterday. Dang rabbit had a field day and set up shop in my garden. My grandkids have some toy snakes here at the house so I planted them too. We'll see if the rabbit is impressed or eats them as well.

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## ClayPick

Congratulations, growing a garden is easy compared to a family. This year I started a 3rd world garden spot. Its only nutrient is charcoal from my wood stove and its doing surprising well!

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## woodsman86

Thank you everyone. If all is well, some of you that attend the Jamboree will get to see the rugrat bunch. 

Garden is still doing good and I plan to eat some peppers this coming week. For some reason my pepper plants decided to grow sky high, have to be every bit 3 1/2 feet tall. Tomatoes are getting heavy and I have to keep tying them up.

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## Solar Geek

Congrats on Shannon and MOM and you :Smile:

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