# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Gardening >  Organic Food is No Healthier

## Chris

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090729/...s_food_organic

Duh.

I've always been annoyed by "oh its organic so it's healthy."

Organic gardening is about self sufficiency, permaculture, or sustainability, it has nothing to do with health unless you count the exercise you get working in your garden. There are plenty of reasons to garden organically, but to buy organic produce the only reason is that you want to encourage organic gardening.

Animal products of course are a different story, but produce doesn't care what type of fertilizer was used on it.

Also not unhealthy, genetically engineered hybrids. Not liking such foods has nothing to do with health.

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## RangerXanatos

As my organic chemistry instructor said, "If it's not organic, then it's not food."

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## BENESSE

> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090729/...s_food_organic
> 
> Duh.
> 
> I've always been annoyed by "oh its organic so it's healthy."
> 
> Organic gardening is about self sufficiency, permaculture, or sustainability, it has nothing to do with health unless you count the exercise you get working in your garden. There are plenty of reasons to garden organically, but to buy organic produce the only reason is that you want to encourage organic gardening.
> 
> Animal products of course are a different story, but produce doesn't care what type of fertilizer was used on it.
> ...


There are actually more reasons to go with organic than not, the most compelling having to do with pesticides.
Here's an indispensable site (of a non-profit organization) that will give you definitive answers on this topic and much more:
http://www.cspinet.org/about/index.html

They deal with facts so you can make up your own mind.

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## Chris

Pesticides don't affect the plant.

If they're sprayed on the part we eat, which isn't often the case, you wash it off. Otherwise, no harm. 

Did you know that you can put houseplants in your house that will filter out various carcinogens from the air? Does that mean that if you eat the plant you're eating the carcinogens? No, absolutely not. 

There seems to be a lack of understand of plant biology whereby people think plants absorb chemicals, then do not change said chemicals, and simply store them in their flesh that we eat. Plants do not work like that.

You can say pesticides are bad because they kill beneficial insects too, but is important to differentiate between that and the notion many people have that if a potato vine was sprayed with a pesticide the tubers in the roots now have pesticides in them.

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## crashdive123

Pesticides bad?  Blasphemy!

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## DOGMAN

What about soybeans?  I read an article several years back (sorry,cant site it- don't remember were I read it) that talked about the danger of "Round-Up Ready" soybeans because of the amount of toxins/Round-up that were absorbed into the soybean.

Personally, I eat "organic food" because I am discustingly wealthy and I like to flaunt it. I like to go to restaurants and cause a big scene when I find out their produce is not organic.

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## Rick

Uh, Jason, do you need a gopher? I'm not cheap but I am obedient.

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## BENESSE

> Pesticides don't affect the plant.
> 
> If they're sprayed on the part we eat, which isn't often the case, you wash it off. Otherwise, no harm. 
> 
> Did you know that you can put houseplants in your house that will filter out various carcinogens from the air? Does that mean that if you eat the plant you're eating the carcinogens? No, absolutely not. 
> 
> There seems to be a lack of understand of plant biology whereby people think plants absorb chemicals, then do not change said chemicals, and simply store them in their flesh that we eat. Plants do not work like that.
> 
> You can say pesticides are bad because they kill beneficial insects too, but is important to differentiate between that and the notion many people have that if a potato vine was sprayed with a pesticide the tubers in the roots now have pesticides in them.


Every year, new research is published demonstrating the toxicity of pesticides to human health and the environment, often at doses previously declared "safe" by the pesticide industry and the government.

As acknowledged by the U.S. and international government agencies, different pesticides have been linked with a variety of toxic effects, including:

    * Nervous system effects
    * Carcinogenic effects
    * Hormone system effects
    * Skin, eye and lung irritation

Pesticides are unique among the chemicals we release into the environment; they have inherent toxicity because they are designed to kill living organisms – insects, plants, and fungi that are considered "pests." Because they are toxic by design, many pesticides pose health risks to people, risks that have been acknowledged by independent research scientists and physicians across the world.

Here's a list of the top 15 fruits and vegetables found to contain the highest amount of pesticides:

RANK 	FRUIT OR VEGGIE 	SCORE
1 (worst)	Peach	                100 (highest pesticide load)
2	        Apple  	                  93
3	    Sweet Bell Pepper	          83
4	         Celery	                  82
5	         Nectarine	                  81
6	        Strawberries	          80
7	             Cherries	          73
8	             Kale                 	  69
9	           Lettuce	                  67
10	    Grapes - Imported	          66
11	         Carrots	                  63
12	            Pear	                  63
13	     Collard Greens	          60
14	           Spinach            	  58
15	            Potato	                  56

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## BENESSE

> Pesticides don't affect the plant.
> 
> If they're sprayed on the part we eat, which isn't often the case, you wash it off. Otherwise, no harm. 
> 
> Did you know that you can put houseplants in your house that will filter out various carcinogens from the air? Does that mean that if you eat the plant you're eating the carcinogens? No, absolutely not. 
> 
> There seems to be a lack of understand of plant biology whereby people think plants absorb chemicals, then do not change said chemicals, and simply store them in their flesh that we eat. Plants do not work like that.
> 
> You can say pesticides are bad because they kill beneficial insects too, but is important to differentiate between that and the notion many people have that if a potato vine was sprayed with a pesticide the tubers in the roots now have pesticides in them.


Some fruits and vegetables seem to be more resistant to absorbing pesticides but most aren't--not even potatoes.

Organically grown fruits and vegetables are not covered with synthetic fertilizers, anti-fungal treatments or radiation – and they’re not genetically modified. “Peeling also reduces exposures but valuable nutrients often go down the drain with the peel. The best option is to eat a varied diet, wash all produce and choose organic when possible to reduce exposure to potentially harmful chemicals”. 
Organic meat, eggs and dairy products come from more humanely raised animals that haven’t been pumped full of antibiotics or growth hormones. 
Another reason to support organic agriculture is that organic farms are generally smaller-scale and conservation-conscious, which means that they strive to reduce the impact of their practices on natural resources. Furthermore, many seem to maintain that organic food also tastes better. 

The Environmental Working Group suggests that switching to organic could start with just a few foods that are most often eaten. Here are the recommended seven foods to start with: 
Dairy products: Milk, yogurt and cheese are considered healthy bone-strengtheners, especially for children, but the additions of hormones and antibiotics undermine the simple goodness of commercial dairy products. 

Potatoes: Commercially farmed potatoes are among the most pesticide-filled vegetables, and they still contain residues after being washed and peeled. 

Meat (including poultry and eggs): Animal products can contain antibiotics, hormones and even heavy metals like arsenic that is used to prompt an animal’s rapid growth. 

Ketchup: Even besides the pesticide issue, research has shown organic ketchup has nearly double the good-for-you antioxidants of conventional ketchup. 

Apples: Apples are among the most pesticide-filled fruits out there. Coffee: Conventional coffee farming relies heavily on pesticide use and contributes to deforestation around the globe. 

Nuts and seeds (including peanuts and nut butters): Pesticides and fungicides are rampant in the production of these foods, and many varieties are bleached after harvest. 

The Environmental Working Group has developed the “Shopper’s Guide to Pesticides in Produce”, now in its fifth edition, which ranks 43 fruits and veggies according to their pesticide content. The Association suggests that it is better to choose the organic grown varieties of peaches, nectarines, cherries, strawberries, table grapes, apples, pears, peppers, lettuce, carrots – which register the highest level of pesticides when conventionally grown. 

On the contrary, onions, avocados, corn, pineapples, mangos, asparagus, peas, kiwifruits, cabbages, aubergines, papayas, watermelons, broccoli and tomatoes don’t contain in general worrisome levels of pesticides.

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## Rick

Here is a write-up by Consumer Reports: 

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/bab...organic%20food

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## OhioHillbilly

I just figure that if I don't put them on the plant, I ain't eating them. This way I don't have to worry about it, either way. I also realize that everyones situation is different.

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## chiangmaimav

In Thailand they spray pesticide everywhere and do not seem to worry much about regulations. However it is also easy to find organic food and I grow many of my own vegetables. There are many Thai people who live over 100 years and many of them say one reason is they eat food without pesticide.

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## BENESSE

> In Thailand they spray pesticide everywhere and do not seem to worry much about regulations. However it is also easy to find organic food and I grow many of my own vegetables. There are many Thai people who live over 100 years and many of them say one reason is they eat food without pesticide.


Growing your own produce is best but if that's not feasible, buy from the local farmers who you know aren't using pesticides. 
Or, join a food co-op (bigger savings than buying organic from a grocery store),
and if that's not possible, just buy organic where you can.

Being prepared for a calamity also includes keeping your body as healthy as you know how. After all, if you have your health...
But that's a whole another post.

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## Ken

In the true spirit of this thread, I would like to announce that this evening I consumed a non-organic 8 oz. burger (medium rare) on a non-organic bun with a side order of non-organic fries with non-organic ketchup and washed it down with a 24 oz. non-organic coffee-flavored extra thick malted frappe (what we New Englanders call a milkshake with ice cream).

That was over an hour ago and I still feel no ill effects. If I don't post tommorrow, you'll know that something went wrong.  :Blushing:

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## BENESSE

> In the true spirit of this thread, I would like to announce that this evening I consumed a non-organic 8 oz. burger (medium rare) on a non-organic bun with a side order of non-organic fries with non-organic ketchup and washed it down with a 24 oz. non-organic coffee-flavored extra thick malted frappe (what we New Englanders call a milkshake with ice cream).
> 
> That was over an hour ago and I still feel no ill effects. If I don't post tommorrow, you'll know that something went wrong.


I'm sure you'll live Ken.
The best part of it all is the suspense of not knowing if or when
you might feel the effects.

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## Ken

> I'm sure you'll live Ken.
> The best part of it all is the suspense of not knowing if or when
> you might feel the effects.


Naaa.  I already know when and how I'll die.  I've even posted about it.

I'll be 93 years old, piloting my own personal Lear Jet back from a scuba diving vacation in Aruba with my 22 year old girlfriend.  The Lear Jet will experience some type of mechanical failure and crash into the sea.  However, I won't see it because I'll be in the back with my 22 year old girlfriend.........   :Innocent:

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## SARKY

Then how can you be piloting the jet???

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## Ken

> Then how can you be piloting the jet???


Autopilot.  Forgot to mention that.   :Blushing:

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## Rick

In his dreams, Sarky. In his dreams. ZZZZzzzzzzzzz.

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## Ken

Does anybody have a "BAN BUTTON" that they'd like to sell????   :Sneaky2:

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## crashdive123

> Does anybody have a "BAN BUTTON" that they'd like to sell????


If I did that, you wouldn't be able to afford that jet.

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## Ken

> If I did that, you wouldn't be able to afford that jet.


Rent???????

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## BENESSE

> Rent???????


Well if you're renting the girl, you might as well rent the jet.

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## Ken

> Well if you're renting the girl, you might as well rent the jet.


The BAN BUTTON, not the GIRL!  Besides, the best things in life are free.  :Innocent:

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## crashdive123

> The BAN BUTTON, not the GIRL!  Besides, the best things in life are free.


Not these.

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## Ken

> Not these.
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Go ahead.  Tease me.  Stress me out even more now that I'm arguing with Chris over the proposed Q.C. department ammunition allowance and golf course benefits budget cuts.   :Sneaky2:

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## Rick

Cut! Cut! Cut! If you can't remember the words then read the cue cards. Really! It isn't that tough. 

Okay everybody. Let's take it from the top. 

(entire cast groans)

Quiet! Que the jet sounds. 

Ken's Fantasy. Take 26!

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## Ken

> Cut! Cut! Cut! If you can't remember the words then read the cue cards. Really! It isn't that tough. 
> 
> Okay everybody. Let's take it from the top. 
> 
> (entire cast groans)
> 
> Quiet! Que the jet sounds. 
> 
> Ken's Fantasy. Take 26!


 
Where's the 22-year-old girlfriend?   :Innocent:

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Where's the 22-year-old girlfriend?


 Uh ohhh! Looks like Ken has his helpers out, looking for this "22 year old girlfriend"! :Innocent:

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## Ken

> Uh ohhh! Looks like Ken has his helpers out, looking for this "22 year old girlfriend"!


Blessed are the meek.........

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## BENESSE

Get the checkbook out Ken, we'll find her!

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## Ken

> Get the checkbook out Ken, we'll find her!


The last time I got the checkbook out was to pay for my divorce.  It's still overdrawn, but it was worth every penny........   :clap: 

I won't pay to start anything.  Only to end it.   :Sneaky2:

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## BENESSE

> The last time I got the checkbook out was to pay for my divorce.  It's still overdrawn, but it was worth every penny........  
> 
> I won't pay to start anything.  Only to end it.


Wait 'til you're 92!

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## Ken

> Wait 'til you're 92!


Ah, Ye who have no faith.

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## BENESSE

> Ah, Ye who have no faith.


"I respect faith, but doubt is what gives you an education."

-Wilson Mizner
1876-1933  American gambler, sportsman and wit

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## Rick

Ohhhhh. She's good. She's reeeeeaaaaaaal good.

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## Ken

> "I respect faith, but doubt is what gives you an education."
> 
> -Wilson Mizner
> 1876-1933 American gambler, sportsman and wit


What kinda' education you lookin' for?   :Innocent:

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## BENESSE

I thought we were talking about you.

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## Ken

> I thought we were talking about you.


Wow.  You're just loaded with misconceptions.......   :Smile:

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Hey Ken isn't Faith the name of the 22 year old we're supposed to be looking for?

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## Ken

> Hey Ken isn't Faith the name of the 22 year old we're supposed to be looking for?


Yep!  That's her, Poco!

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## BENESSE

> Wow.  You're just loaded with misconceptions.......


Enlighten me.

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## Ken

> Enlighten me.


Well, to begin with, you seem to have some misconception (you repeated it more than once in different posts) that I would need to write a check to get a date.  Why is that?  Do you require a payment by check to go on a date?

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## BENESSE

> Well, to begin with, you seem to have some misconception (you repeated it more than once in different posts) that I would need to write a check to get a date.  Why is that?  Do you require a payment by check to go on a date?


Sorry man, I thought we was talkin' bout organic produce.

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## Rick

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## Ken

Looks like a certain Moderator found a new toy that he likes playin' with.   :Innocent:

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## Chris

Environmental data put out by political groups aiming for social change is not worth being considered.

You're also vastly ignorant if you think commercial organic farming uses no pesticides or herbacides. They do, they just use organic ones. You don't think something organic or natural can be dangerous? Let me introduce you to nightshade, hemlock, cocaine, heroine, peyote, etc etc.

"all natural" chemicals or synthetical chemicals, they're still chemicals. 

Also, the primary all natural fertilizer is manure, which carries a risk of ecoli contamination. That has actually happened recently and has actually killed people. Synthetic fertilizers, while not perhaps encouraging beneficial soil organisms, also don't spread things like ecoli. 

Finally, anyone who comes out against GMO really just shows their true colors of being a zealot using environmental claims for social change. Really, this is scientific progress, and all of our food has been genetically modified going on thousands of years, we can just do it faster now. Modern science gives us food miracles that feed the hungry and cure vitamin deficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

The fact is, if the whole world gardened organically, we could feed about 3 billion people. Every other person would starve. We'll eventually reach the limits anyways, and genetic engineering will help push us beyond them by increasing crop yields. You can't feed the hungry without scientific advancement. Don't be a luddite.

And this is exactly why (one of the reasons) so many socialists and communists have coopted the environmental movement, they're all in favor of strict government control, to the point of controlling reproductive rights, putting in population limits, euthanizing old people, etc. It is all about power and resources. All animals are equal, some are more equal than others, and the ones more equal than others want to ensure more resources for themselves. The twit street person who is just a joiner and sucks down the propaganda might not realize the motivation behind it, but in the higher echelons of these movements environmentalism is not seen as a tool of saving the earth, it is seen as a tool of social change and control. 

Every once in awhile though the mask slips.

I garden organically in my yard, I buy all natural grass fed bison and don't eat ground beef. I try to grow as much of my own food as possible. I walk places instead of drive if I can. But when an Al Gore-type pulls up in his limosine and hands me a glass of koolaid, I don't drink it. You have to be an independent thinker, not a joiner.

Organic gardening is great for soil, it can be cheaper for the home gardener because you're getting free fertilizer from your compost. It is better for beneficial insects which are killed by non-selective pesticides. But the idea that it is more nutritive is just hype.

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## Sarge47

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


OK, anybody who saw the movie, "Saving Silverman" where R. Lee Ermy plays a gay football coach who marries Jack Black at a Neil Diamond concert, then plants a big "wet one" on Black's kisser, raise you hands!  One thing I gotta say, though, the dude is BUTCH!   :Innocent:

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## Nativedude

Pesticides that are used in commercial gardening are in deed harmful over the long period and deadly (cancer causing) and it's been proven. These pesticides do get absorbed through the skin or peel of the various veggies & fruits, then we eat them and they get absorbed into our bodies.

If you don't believe it then you are one of the in denial sheeple! Why do you think cancer is so prevalent in the world today.

Whether sprayed on fruits & veggies (pesticides) or injected into livestock (growth hormones & steroids), these substances are killing us little-by-little each and every day! Eating organic is a much healthier way to live.

Also, organic foods last longer than commercially processed foods. That is one reason why the commercial growers (they're not farmers!) try to dis-credit organic foods.

Preservatives that are put in most commercial food actually breaks the food down quicker. This is done so that the consumer has to buy more, more frequently. Whereas, organic food lasts 3x to 4x times longer. When I used to buy organic milk, it's expiration date was about 6 weeks (usually).

All the food I grow in my garden lasts, almost, indefinitely. Notice I said "almost". 

And, I personally, know 3 people, besides myself, that have a problem with "regular" milk. We get upset stomach, gas, etc. but, with organic milk we don't have any problems. When I drink it, I can drink it by the quart with no ill-effect. So can the others. So don't tell me there is no difference. There absolutely is! . . .

Not to get off topic, but another thing that is killing us, through cancer and sickness, is our public water supply.

Millions of people flush their old out-of-date prescription medications down the toilet, which in turn, dissolves into the water system and then billions of people ingest this tainted water, which then gets absorbed into our system (bodies) and causes who knows how many problems?!

So don't be a sheeple thinking that the chemicals used for the aforementioned is not affecting us. . .THEY DO!!

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## primitiveroots

I am shocked that you truly believe that organic food is no better.  Maybe mass grown commercial organic food is no better.  But I can guarantee, that my home grown organic food is 100x's better than the stuff they call food in the super market.  One you can taste the difference, see, smell, and feel the difference in organic food grown by someone who really cares about the quality of their food. 

But does that mean, I believe the hype about organic.  No of course not, if I know that produce is grown by local farmers that don't have the money to buy the organic stamp of approval but don't use toxic chemicals on their plants, I will honor them.  I don't need some stamp to tell me the quality of the food that I buy just my brain.

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## BENESSE

> I am shocked that you truly believe that organic food is no better.  Maybe mass grown commercial organic food is no better.  But I can guarantee, that my home grown organic food is 100x's better than the stuff they call food in the super market.  One you can taste the difference, see, smell, and feel the difference in organic food grown by someone who really cares about the quality of their food. 
> 
> But does that mean, I believe the hype about organic.  No of course not, if I know that produce is grown by local farmers that don't have the money to buy the organic stamp of approval but don't use toxic chemicals on their plants, I will honor them.  I don't need some stamp to tell me the quality of the food that I buy just my brain.



primitiveroots, you said it all!!!
You know what you're talking about because you LIVE it.
If one chooses not to listen, obviously their mind was made up ahead of time
and they're looking for validation.

That's cool, let's just recognize it for what it is.

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## Chris

Hey, I said I garden organically, you just gotta seperate science from psychology. 




> If you don't believe it then you are one of the in denial sheeple! Why do you think cancer is so prevalent in the world today.


That is utterly ridiculous, and just the kind of scare tactics too often used to push a social agenda.

http://ehstoday.com/news/ehs_imp_33319/
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-263.html
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/health/cancerfs.htm

For one, assuming pesiticide use is rising (it probably isn't), and assuming cancer as a percentage is rising, you cannot randomly imply causation between them. Correlation != causation. Use of the Internet is also rising, does the Internet cause cancer?

Obesity is rising, does obesity cause cancer? That you can scientifically prove.




> Also, organic foods last longer than commercially processed foods. That is one reason why the commercial growers (they're not farmers!) try to dis-credit organic foods.


No they don't.




> Preservatives that are put in most commercial food actually breaks the food down quicker. This is done so that the consumer has to buy more, more frequently. Whereas, organic food lasts 3x to 4x times longer. When I used to buy organic milk, it's expiration date was about 6 weeks (usually).


No, they don't.




> All the food I grow in my garden lasts, almost, indefinitely. Notice I said "almost".


Do your beanstalks also lead to a castle in the clouds? I want to meet these magical apples that do not rot in the presence of ethylene gas.




> And, I personally, know 3 people, besides myself, that have a problem with "regular" milk. We get upset stomach, gas, etc. but, with organic milk we don't have any problems. When I drink it, I can drink it by the quart with no ill-effect. So can the others. So don't tell me there is no difference. There absolutely is! . . .


An anecdotal placebo effect, that is hard evidence. Ask someone to take organic and nonorganic milk and put them in the same jug and give them to you to drink, and do this for like 10 trials (20 total jugs), and see if you have any statisically significant results. No cheating!




> Not to get off topic, but another thing that is killing us, through cancer and sickness, is our public water supply.
> 
> Millions of people flush their old out-of-date prescription medications down the toilet, which in turn, dissolves into the water system and then billions of people ingest this tainted water, which then gets absorbed into our system (bodies) and causes who knows how many problems?!


Not really cancer, cancer isn't some medical bugaboo you can attribute as a result of anything bad. BUT flushing medicines down the toilet does have negative health consequences, and is something no one should do. The one thing in your post that is accurate.

Also, mercury pollution effects people who eat a lot of fish, that is a scientifically proven fact. 




> But I can guarantee, that my home grown organic food is 100x's better than the stuff they call food in the super market.


That has nothing to do with what kind of fertilizer you use, or if you use certified organic seeds, or if you use pesticides. That has to do with the food being grown 10 feet from where it is cooked. Fresh food tastes better, food left to ripen on the plant tastes better, food that hasn't been shipped thousands of miles is fresher. 

This is a big reason why I grow a lot of my own food, the better taste, but you get that regardless of if you use a processed nitrate to fertilize your corn, or bags of manure.

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## Nativedude

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I learn, first, from what I see and second, from what I get from people I know whom study these causes and effects. I just spent the last two weeks with a good friend whom works at a non-public nor gov't funded, independent lab that tests the effects of the chemicals I mentioned on the human body.

Obesity does not cause cancer, but it is the #1 leading cause of heart disease and the #1 leading cause of diabetes. And obesity has "factually" been linked to all of the processed and fast food that people eat everyday. And, in fact, an article just came out about the fact that "enriched flour" causes the pancreas to not function properly, which leads to diabetes.

Countries like Tibet never had a problems with people being over-weight or obese, but ever since the introduction of the "golden arches" to their country, they have seen an exponential increase in these two problems, as well as, diabetes, heart disease, digestive problems, and an increase in cancer.

Man-made synthetic chemical compounds, such as those used to make pharmaceuticals or pesticides or plastics or synthetic clothing are all petroleum-based and do cause cancers and other illnesses to humans and other animals.

Ever since the beginning of the industrial revolution (Post WWII) manufacturers have been coming up with ways to "improve" everything, food, household cleaners, clothing (textiles), etc.

As well. The prevalent use of growth hormones and steroids has risen exponentially over the last 50 years. We as a race have gotten progressively bigger from all of the hormones and steroids that are being used in beef, veal, poultry. There is also a trickle down effect to the milk, cheese, eggs, etc., which, we in turn, ingest.

Studies have proven that these chemicals are absorbed into our systems and work their way into our genetic makeup, we then pass these chemicals onto our off-spring, and so on and so on. . .

Another cancer that is on the rise is Melanoma (skin cancer). Why do you think that is? It is because of all of the chemicals that pople put on their skin. Creams, lotions, potions, hair spray, mousse, gels, colognes & perfumes, etc.

Initially, all of these things are absorbed into the epidermis then get absorbed into our other vital systems. Then, when you go out in the sun with all this stuff on your skin and get a "tan", you are literally *baking* your skin with all of these chemicals. So, these chemicals, over time, break down the skins ability to block UVA and UVB rays, which in turn, causes skin cancer.

Take a look at how illnesses and cancers are on the rise in our domestic animals/pets. Why? Because of all the chemicals that are put into animal food and through the "human" food that people feed their animals.

Most of this is just common sense. . .I would think?!

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## Rick

> Another cancer that is on the rise is Melanoma (skin cancer). Why do you think that is? It is because of all of the chemicals that pople put on their skin. Creams, lotions, potions, hair spray, mousse, gels, colognes & perfumes, etc.


Actually, no. No to the chemicals. I've had skin cancer and I can assure you I put nothing on my skin. The rise in skin cancer has to do with the way we dress, the sun loving culture we have, and our direct exposure to the sun. The sun (or the UV rays) being the operative culprit here. Only in the last one or two generations have we seen men and women, scantily clad, laying on the beach cooking themselves in sunlight and/or going to tanning booths. 

As for me, it had to do with my constant outdoor exposure because of work and the fact that I didn't wear a wide brimmed hat. The cancer was on my ear. You can bet I DO use chemicals today. It's called sun screen and I do wear a wide brimmed hat. 


As to the organically grown debate, I doubt anyone is going to convince the other about their point of view. We believe what we choose to believe for our own reasons. It's one of the things that makes us 'interesting', I guess. Now, what's the perfect survival knife?

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## Nativedude

I have no doubt that people can get skin cancer as you did Rick, but. . . .

According to Dr. Ingar Nesmussen at the Denmark Medical Institute, In a 2003 report on dermatology and the effects of the sun on the skin (written after a 7 year study), the report concludes that 72% percent of the grades of melanoma that humans contract is directly related to the extensive use of synthetic chemicals used on the skin which breaks down the epidermis and allows the suns rays to penetrate and damage the stratum basale cells*.

*_The stratum basale cells help to generate new skin cells which, as the outer skin dies, pushes their way up to the surface. Once the stratum basale cells get damaged it affects the cells growth and ability to protect the skin from UVB rays (the most damaging sun rays), as well as, the effects from pollutants in the air._

Other causes are from:

Smoking contributes 87% to the bodies inability to defend against the effects of UVB rays. (Smoke severely hinders the body's ability to keep the skin moist and nicotine dries out the body internally.)

Consumption of unhealthy foods with artificial additives and synthetic chemical compounds ingested into the body and a poor diet, contributes 63% to the bodies inability to defend against the effects of UVB rays.

Excessive consumption of Alcohol contributes 41% to the bodies inability to defend against the effects of UVB rays.

This is taken from the report from Dr. Nesmussen.

And Rick, the melanoma on your ear could have been a direct result of the shampoo you use on your hair. The shampoo get absorbed in the ear and breaks down the skin cells. Again, chemicals on the skin?! Just a thought!

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## Rick

Yeah, right. Like I use soap. Just kidding. 

I can accept your argument. There may well be truth in it. The shampoo could have been a contributor or a cause.

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## Chris

> Obesity does not cause cancer, but it is the #1 leading cause of heart disease and the #1 leading cause of diabetes. And obesity has "factually" been linked to all of the processed and fast food that people eat everyday. And, in fact, an article just came out about the fact that "enriched flour" causes the pancreas to not function properly, which leads to diabetes.


Point 1. Fast food != gardening. Really, you want to talk about how bad eating habits cause health problems, great, I agree with that notion 100%. But this has nothing to do with the notion that if you use a synthetic fertilizer on your blueberry bushes they'll have less antioxidants.

Point 2. Obesity does cause cancer. The #1 risk factor for most cancers is smoking. The #2 risk factor is obesity. Some of it is correlation, fat people probably don't eat a lot of fruits and veggies, but it is their lack of nutrition, rather than their huge waistline, that contributes to cancer. Some of it is causative though, fat has an inflammatory affect on the body which can slowly degrade and wound our organs, eventually allowing them to become cancerous. 




> Countries like Tibet never had a problems with people being over-weight or obese, but ever since the introduction of the "golden arches" to their country, they have seen an exponential increase in these two problems, as well as, diabetes, heart disease, digestive problems, and an increase in cancer.


Again, unrelated to organic gardening. And in fact if you wanted to take this argument in this direction I could point out that hundreds of years ago we all gardened organically and we all ate organic food and we all had a life expectancy of 35. 




> Man-made synthetic chemical compounds, such as those used to make pharmaceuticals or pesticides or plastics or synthetic clothing are all petroleum-based and do cause cancers and other illnesses to humans and other animals.


All plastics all made from petroleum and cause cancer? Did you read the links I posted? I suppose not, something like less than 1% of all cancers are from chemical pollutants. Not all plastics are made from petroleum, not all plastics leech dangerous chemicals, not all chemicals are cancerous.  




> Ever since the beginning of the industrial revolution (Post WWII) manufacturers have been coming up with ways to "improve" everything, food, household cleaners, clothing (textiles), etc.


And what has happened? Life expectancy has skyrocketed.




> As well. The prevalent use of growth hormones and steroids has risen exponentially over the last 50 years. We as a race have gotten progressively bigger from all of the hormones and steroids that are being used in beef, veal, poultry. There is also a trickle down effect to the milk, cheese, eggs, etc., which, we in turn, ingest.


Fact: All cow's milk has hormones in it. Cows that are close to ovulating have extreme amounts. All animal flesh has hormones in it as well, organic raised or otherwise.

The reason we as a race have gotten bigger is because of increases in available nutrition and medical care. Malnutrition stunts growth and we rarely have malnourished kids in the developed world anymore.




> Studies have proven that these chemicals are absorbed into our systems and work their way into our genetic makeup, we then pass these chemicals onto our off-spring, and so on and so on. . .


I actually majored in genetics in school, and thats bunk. Sorry. That is tinfoil hat quality bunk.




> Another cancer that is on the rise is Melanoma (skin cancer). Why do you think that is? It is because of all of the chemicals that pople put on their skin. Creams, lotions, potions, hair spray, mousse, gels, colognes & perfumes, etc.


Sun exposure. 




> Initially, all of these things are absorbed into the epidermis then get absorbed into our other vital systems. Then, when you go out in the sun with all this stuff on your skin and get a "tan", you are literally *baking* your skin with all of these chemicals. So, these chemicals, over time, break down the skins ability to block UVA and UVB rays, which in turn, causes skin cancer.


More pseudoscience.




> Take a look at how illnesses and cancers are on the rise in our domestic animals/pets. Why? Because of all the chemicals that are put into animal food and through the "human" food that people feed their animals.


I'm not even sure where you get all the statistics about X disease being on the rise, Ive been assuming you're correct, but I'd like to see a link or something.  You have to understand a few things about statistics first.

1. Percentages matter, literal numbers do not, because populations have increased.

2. With many medical conditions doctors have gotten better at diagnosing things or records have been kept better. For instance people think Autism is on the rise, but in reality the definition of it has been expanded to include a wider range of symptoms, and doctors have been better educated to spot it and so correctly diagnose it. Autism as a percentage of the population isn't necessarily higher than it was in the past, it is just in the past you just called the kids "slow" or "special" and they did not have a clinical diagnosis. 

3. One of the downsides of increased medical care is that you die from different things. It used to be you'd die from an infection, or dehydration, or the flu, or diarrhea. Now you live longer, but that means you end up dying from cancer or heart disease. Is cancer on the rise? Or are you just living longer?

Suppose you have a car and the tires always die after 10,000 miles. Now suppose you redesign the tires and now the car lasts 30,000 miles and then the engine dies. Is there a new engine killing pandemic? Or was the engine always vulnerable at 30,000 miles it is just you rarely got there before?

4. As people have become wealthier they have spent more on their pets and all of the above apply as such. They're more likely to go to a vet, to pay for expensive tests and diagnosis, for surgery. They're more likely to take better care of the animal, to help it live longer. Used to be you'd take the animal out back and shoot it, and animal may have had cancer, you didn't know, you just knew it was suffering. So when you say "something is on the rise" you need to compare to things like use of veternary services, availability of veternary services, animal life expectancies, etc.

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## Chris

by the way, John McCain got skin cancer from his time as a POW. Was it from all the fancy salon products he got offered by the vietnamese? Nah, it is because he was laid out in the sun often as punishment. 

99/100 dermatologists will tell you to wear sunscreen and stay out of the sun as much as possible and not use tanning beds. They will not tell you to stop using shampoo. 

http://www.skincancer.org/Guidelines/

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## Mountain Man

I stopped using shampoo no my own accord.

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## Rick

Hondas generally don't look that much better if you use shampoo on them anyway. Regular car soap is okay.

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## crashdive123

Took me a second....

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## BENESSE

> Hondas generally don't look that much better if you use shampoo on them anyway. Regular car soap is okay.


LOL!!! Good one Rick.

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## Mountain Man

> Hondas generally don't look that much better if you use shampoo on them anyway. Regular car soap is okay.


 :clap:  haha

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## Ken

> Hondas generally don't look that much better if you use shampoo on them anyway. Regular car soap is okay.


If any of my Forum membership fee is going to the humor department, I want a partial refund.

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