# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  What can I make with deer?

## rwc1969

I shot a yearling doe and want to utilize it as much as possible.

So, what parts can I use to make stuff?

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## welderguy

Pretty much all of it, bone, sinew, the hide, brains.

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## Wise Old Owl

Seen folk make wistles and bone handles, carve stuff you name it...

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## your_comforting_company

skin and brains = clothing
ulna-radius = hide scraper
toe bones = arrowheads and fishhooks
sinew (primarily backstrap)= thread, cordage
skullcap = scraping tool
scapula = digging tool
ribs = saw, scraper
hoof = decorations
horns = knapping tools (does don't have horns, tho)
tail hair = fishing lures
jaw (with teeth) = saw
leftover hide and sinew bits = boil into glue
fat = tallow fuel, soap, grease (cooking and lube)
bladder, pericardium,  and gut = containers

A deer really is an "all-in-one" package, food, clothing, and tools. I've posted quite a few threads on using different deer parts. Searching for any of the above words should turn up a thread or two.

I really admire a hunter that wants to use more than just the meat, or only hunts for horns. Dad killed a 6pt buck two weeks ago and showed me the horns. I told him that was more horns than I could eat in a years time (har har har).

If you would like assistance with any of the projects above, I'm happy to help!

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## rwc1969

Thanks all! 

*YCC I would like assistance.*

I'm processing the deer right now and want to make sure I don't ruin a valuable part in the process.

I typically cut the legs off at the kneecap without a saw and seperate the legs without saw so I'm thinking this will be good for later removing the tendons, bones, dew claws, etc. etc.


*I want to use the tallow. Is it the hard fat that lies between the skin and flesh? Not the soft fat, right?*

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## Old GI

D-i-n-n-e-r!!!!!!

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## rwc1969

I got the tallow part figured out YCC. Thanks again for the help!

*How do you prepare the bones for use? Specifically, how do you get the remnants off the bones?*

I have all the leg bones, ribs, shoulder blades, hoofs and hocks/ forelegs, skin?, tallow, back sinew, a couple leg tendons, and the head and spine. Not sure what do with the head and spine if anything. The hard part for me is figuring out how to get all the remnants of meat, fat, cartiladge and what have you off the bones. And, I'm not sure about digging in for the brains, but will do it if it's needed for prepping the hide.

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## Rick

Deer? Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl...

(scene from Airplane)

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## RCKCRWLER

Bend the legs at the "ankle"  to make a 90* bend, let dry and screw to a board,  Now you have a rifle rack. (obviously not the whole leg but you get my point) Use the tail hair  for tying fishing flies,  Macerate the skull :Chef:   We used to clean the vertabrae and use them for neckerchief slides while in Boy Scouts.  The possibilities are endless...have fun.

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## rwc1969

The pipes are neat WOL, thanks.

Thanks RCKCRWLR.

I'm still trying to figure out how to prepare the bones for use, boil them?

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## Ted

If you boil them,add some baking soda. I don't know why the meat falls off easier, but it does.

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## your_comforting_company

Also, look into maceration. You can just drop them in a bucket of water, leave the lid cracked just a litle so bacteria can get in, and wait.
I would take the skin off the hocks before macerating tho. And the water is going to be stinky! After the meat and tendons have fallen off spread out the bones to dry, then give a good soaking in bleach water to sterilize.
Ted's method will be faster, and maceration takes the least effort/ resources.

The tallow I use is the hard fat between the skin and meat. The soft stuff might work, too, I just haven't tried it. grind/ grate/ dice the fat, add water, bring to a boil. When as much fat has melted as possible, pour off the water/fat mix into a bowl, stick it in the fridge to harden. When ready, use a knive to make a small hole in one edge of the "wax" on top, and pour out the water. What's left is your lamp fuel.
Sorry about being so late getting back to you!

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## your_comforting_company

Oh yeah.. if you macerate, wear gloves. The bucket will be FULL of flesh eating bacteria.

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## rwc1969

Thanks Ted, I think I'll try that. I just wasn't sure if boiling the bones would damage or weaken them for use.

YCC, no problem on the delay, thanks. I got a small knick on my knuckle when field dressing the deer and immediately thought of you and your ordeal. 

*What do I do with the skin?* I pulled it off yesterday and let it hang over a chair for a few hours. I'm thinking that was a mistake because it dried some. But, last night I took and rolled it in on itself fur side out and placed it in a 5 gallon bucket with a loose lid. It has some flesh from around the neck area and some blood from the shot where it pooled. Yes I read yout tut YCC, but tried a new method that failed miserably involving a rock and a rope to pull the skin. I won't be using that method again. 

The thing I'm realizing is time restraints. I have removed and saved many valuable parts, but am running out of time to prepare them in a timely fashion. First priority was getting the meat cut up and on ice, then we're getting into Final time at school and I'm still hunting whenever I get the chance. I planned on doing something with the skin, hocks and such yesterday, but got pulled away from it.

I will have time, hopefully, tomorrow to skin the hocks and possibly remove the brains and/ or flesh the hide/ soak the hide? But, I still have trim meat to grind, pack and freeze, a liver that needs cooking, and some tallow that needs rendering. Sheesh!

I thought you had a buckskin tut YCC, but couldn't find it. I'd like to do that or Barktan, but I'm thinking living in the city and not having access to fresh bark the buckskin might be the way to go? or maybe even some rawhide just to get a feel for this? 

With the time limits and such I'm not expecting this skin to turn out great, but would like to get a feel for the process at least with some hands on. Even if the skin doesn't turn out it will not have been a total waste as it will be a learning experience and get me better prepared for the next one. Beats throwing it in the trash IMO, which is what I've always done in the past.

*I need help on fleshing and/ or storing the hide and removing and storing the brains. If there are skull parts that can be used I'd like to save them as well and not damage them getting the brains out.*

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## Ted

You may find this of interest, it's a great site!http://www.braintan.com/articles/index.htm

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## LowKey

I appreciate your eagerness to use all there is to use. But the time to prepare is before you shoot the deer, not while it's laying on your butcher table.

You can salt and freeze the hide for later processing (if you have space in your freezer.)

Every time someone mentions using maceration my nose hairs curl. It doesn't just stink. It's a stink that sticks. There is nothing worse than floating decomp. When you change the water, don't get it on you. Pour it off into a hole, a deep one, then fill in the hole. And don't let it get away from you. If you get sidetracked with school and forget about it for a couple of weeks you will seriously regret it (though you'll probably remember when the stink wafts through the air.) Hope you don't have any near neighbors.

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## rwc1969

Thanks Ted, I've been checking that out for a while now.

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## your_comforting_company

No need to salt the hide, really, unless you are going to dry-store it. I just fold them on themselves, roll them up, and freeze them.
The first step, whether buckskin, bark-tan, or rawhide, is going to be removing the hair. You'll need a 5 gallon bucket, enough sifted ashes (to remove the big charcoal hunks) to fill it about halfway, and about a gallon and a half of water. This will make a lye solution that will cause the hide to swell. Once the solution has settled in the bucket and the brown water is on top, float an egg in it. This is a specific gravity test for pH. It should look like this, with an exposed area about the size of a half-dollar.
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For rawhide or bark tan, you want to leave it in the lye until *the hair rubs off with your fingers*. for buckskin, you don't need to wait quite that long.
You'll need a drawknife and a scraping beam. My beam is a piece of 6" PVC irrigation pipe. Scraping for buckskin can take quite a few hours so if you don't think you'll have time when it's done bucking (the lye step) then freeze it until the schedule will be appropriate. For just rawhide or grain-leather any old gizmo will work as long as you can get to the hair to wipe it off. *Do not freeze the hide with lye still in it!*

Once scraped / cleaned, you'll soak it in a clean bucket with the hose in it. Keeping the water running on a trickle will be crucial in keeping bacteria from moving in and setting the hide to decomp (this is the same as maceration!) Once the lye is rinsed out (it won't be "tawny" anymore) you can wring out the excess water, and freeze.

Keep an eye on that finger. I doubt that the parts have been out so long as to have flesh-eating bacteria yet, but you can never be too safe!!

I use a sawzall to remove the skullcap and my fingers to extract the brain. It can be frozen with the hide so they'll stay together. The jaw and vertebrae are the only head-bones I would bother saving, tho there are a few small bones in the head that could be used for a few things, I think you'll have enough bones that you won't be wasting anything of real value.

Buckskin is pretty involved.. I haven't done a buckskin tute simply because it is quite a labor to describe all the processes without being excessively scientific. However, it might be time to do a brief pictorial. I'll work on it as time allows.

Rawhide and bark tan are by far less labor and time intensive. Rawhide will require a frame.. There's a lot to consider, so I say the first thing is to decide which type of leather you want, and we'll work from there.

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## LowKey

Thanks YCC on the salt. I was looking into buying a hide to try my hand at this and they were salt frozen.

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## rwc1969

Thanks ycc, after re-reading your barktan tut that's what I'm going with.

I'm going to flesh it today and buck it using hydrated lime. I read over at braintan.com that shredded wood mulch from the landscape store will work for making liquor so I'm going to see if they have any, if not I may try using tea.

Does that sound doable?

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## LowKey

rwc, make sure you ask if that mulch is treated for insects in any way. Around here they treat some of it with termiticide. That wouldn't be good.

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## your_comforting_company

tea is definately doable. Save your old tea bags. As the liquor gets weaker, throw in a few more.
Use the dull side of your draw knife, or just your hand to get the hair off so you don't tear up the grain! Beyond that, the tute should cover it! You won't need the brain for bark tan, but instead use mink oil, neatsfoot, or the like, mixed with soapy water so it will emulsify. Good Luck and If you need any help feel free to ask!

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## your_comforting_company

"wood" itself does not contain tannins, it's in the layer of bark just below the ridged outer layer, so I would not think mulch would work at all since it is mostly wood chips.

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## rwc1969

YCC, does the egg suspend continuosly or does it gradually sink?

I kept adding lime and eventually the egg would poke thru the surface of the water just slightly like in your pic, maybe a quarter's worth of egg showing, but it would only do it right after stirring the solution. As it sat for maybe 10 or 15 seconds it would slowly start to sink.

I stopped there and added the hide, squished it around real good and covered it with a rock to weight it down.

Also, can I re-use the lye solution?

Thanks, and thanks LowKey. I shopped around and all I could find was bark that was colored red or black. I know a spot where an oak fell this summer and I'm going to hike in and bring some back to test. If it makes tea I'll go back and harvest a bunch.

I'm thinking on using the tallow I made to oil/ curry? this hide when complete.

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## your_comforting_company

Tallow will make the leather fairly heavy, so it just depends on what you want. Most people prefer neatsfoot. If you do choose tallow, make sure you render it very well, and clarify it best you can. I have heard folks tell that sometimes their leather gets moldy if stored and curried with tallow. I've not had this problem myself, just something to keep an eye on.

If using pickling lime, you can't make it too strong. Upon reaching a certain concentration, any excess will precipitate to the bottom. The egg test is moot when using pickling lime. If the lime precipitate in the bottom of your bucket is turned yellow, it's used up. I usually get 2 hides with a pound of lime.. so about a half pound per hide is generally enough.
Wood ashes can be used, added to, used again, added to, and so on, but lime will get weak and need to be changed with every other hide. With ashes, the egg floats continuously. A good guess would be that the lime in suspension, at it's highest pH, would float the egg, and as the precipitate excess sinks, so would the egg. Ashes can reach a higher pH so that's why the test is used. (also, different woods provide different concentrations of CaCO3 and KOH)

Also worth mentioning, bark that has been rained on will have much less, or even no tannins left in it because it's been leeched out by the rain. If possible use fresher wood, or wood that's been kept dry. I used bark from wood we cut up for firewood.

Tallow will need to be kept warm while emulsified. Try not to let the temp get over 120F. If you get it too hot it could ruin the hide. Too cold and the oil won't get in (tallow is a pretty big molecule). If it's too hot for your skin, it's too hot for the deer's skin too!

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## your_comforting_company

One other thing to mention: you'll need about twice to triple the weight of the wet hide, in dry bark. If your wet hide weighs (guess at it) 8 lbs. you'll need around 20 lbs of dry bark. Keep a little extra on hand because as the hide soaks up the tannins, you'll need to add bark to bring the strength back up.

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## rwc1969

Thanks, that's a great explanation. Well, we're in the middle of an all day soaker here, so I'm not sure where I would find dry fresh bark. We don't burn wood and I don't know anyone who does.

Have you heard of using Black tea? Would that work and do you have any idea how much tea I should use?

I stirred the hide this morning and will again in a few. The tallow sounds like it might not be the best to use. Mine is pure white and filterd twice, but having to keep it warm sounds like a hassle. We'll see!

I guess at this point I just need to wait for the hair to slip easily, carefully scrape it off as not to bust the grain and soak it in a creek for a few days to take out the lime.

Is there any environmental dangers of soaking the hide in a creek? Our garden hose line is drained and shut off for the winter due to freezing.

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## ClovisMan

Another good way to have all the meat remnants removed is to drop the bone you want cleaned into a fire ant mound for a couple days. Thats what we do with skulls before we bleach them.

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## your_comforting_company

I have heard of using tea and I am saving bags to try it now.. or I was.. Long story. I still kinda am, LOL.
Tea will work and there is a discussion on braintan.com about using tea. How strong is a matter of trial and error I guess.. I would want it fairly dilute at the start, like you can see about halfway into the bucket, and every day when you make tea, throw another bag or two in there. It will take time to tan it. You can make cuts in the neck to check it once or twice a week, but I'd just let it go for about a month, adding a bag or two (used bags) every day and stirring.
Did you know that drinking tea without milk allows the tannic acids in the tea to bind to your liver? There is a whole world of chemistry and science involved here.

A live tree will have lots of tannins in it's bark, even if it's raining, but you said you don't use firewood, so.. I would try the tea.

By the way, if it's cold enough outside to freeze the garden hose, it's gonna take a day or two for the hide to buck. keeping it stirred will speed things up, and not letting it freeze, while not letting it get too hot either.

Most importantly, as long as the creek does not feed a small reservoir, there should be no real danger in rinsing in the creek. Be sure to use a rock to weigh it down and make sure dogs can't get it!! The amount of lime rinsed back out, in proportion to the amount of water will be very, very small. *now if you were doing 20 hides at a time, then yeah.. that might be a problem* 

Sounds like you're on the right track. Wish I could tell you better about the strength of the tea, but I have not tried it yet myself. When using bark, I just try to maintain a "color". If it looks thin, I add some. It's pretty straightforward.

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## your_comforting_company

Can you find any black walnut trees? I actually lucked out today and got a TRUCKLOAD for free. Gotta get some gloves and get to work!

http://www.braintan.com/mm5/merchant...Code=Materials
You might also search for quebracho powder. 
I know you were wanting to do it natural, but if you can't _find_ natural, you can buy something like it..

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## rwc1969

That's a good tip ClovisMan. We have Army ant hills, as we call them, and I bet they'de do the same. They eat everything you throw on the mounds.

YCC, I do know where walnuts grow, but the nuts are all gone now, squirrels. I think I'm still going to try that fallen oak, it seems unlikely that all the tannins would wash out of a live tree that quick, or not? I'm still going to check out of curiosity.

But, if the oak is all washed out, sounds like it will be, I will try the black tea and see how it goes. Could making too weak a tea cause problems?

We've had a few nights under freezing, but no major freezes yet. We just shut the water off after Nov.1 because that's when it gets likely to freeze and since it's a crawl space you want to avoid having to crawl under there with a foot of snow and ice covering the entrance.

one more question or three,  :Smile:  Have you prepared hockskins and how'd you do it? I skinned mine out today and just stretched and tacked them to a board to dry. Should I salt them? They have a little fat by the dewclaws, is it ok to leave it? or should I flesh them? The only source I had said to simply skin them and tack to board without fleshing or anything. It looks like the area would be difficult to flesh.

Thanks again man, you rock!

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## your_comforting_company

If it's only been rained on once or twice, it's probably still okay. If it's been laying there since a year, let it go. Use your judgement, I'm sure if it's fairly fresh- like it still has some green on it- it's perfect.

The bark liquor will be antibacterial. Unless you let the tea get to such a weakness that bacteria can grow, then you end up with something you would not want to get on you... Get it fairly strong to start, and just add more as you go, it's pretty hard to mess this up, according to the experiences I've read using different plants.
I should warn you that it contains sugars, starches, and acids that will ferment. Just as with making wine, expect the funny smell *but it should never smell rancid.* It should be a kind of sweet-rotten wood smell. Not sure I can describe it well enough, but you know what rotten flesh smells like.. that's bad!

I have only played with hockskins a little.. a wood dowel and a dull blade will get those tendons and stuff off. I use different sized dowel-shaped things and my old hickory. Fat really needs to come off. And of course, it depends on what kind of tan you want to do. For storage, I'd tack out and salt till dry. The salt draws out fluid so put it somewhere that's ok to make a little mess.
Since you've got them tacked out they will dry and you can fashion a sharp spoon into a little dry scraper and flesh them that way. Check the brain tan pelt thread to see that ditty. Then braintan those. OR you could do them as rawhide pieces  :Wink:  There's too many options man!

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## Winnie

I know absolutely nothing of tanning, but if you have access to an Oak tree, Acorns are stuffed full of Tannins. Could they be a possible candidate if chopped up?

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## your_comforting_company

It's a good idea. I have not read of anyone using acorns to tan, but I do know that if you are going to use them for food, you boil and change the water a few times.. Should be able to save the water and use it, theoretically.

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## rwc1969

Thanks Winnie for the idea. 

That's a nice write up on the squirrel skin YCC, I think I'm just gonna make hair on rawhide with the hockskins and later make a container or something. I'm not quite ready to deal with brains and I feel the deer may have set too long to extract them for storage?? It's been almost 7 days now and it got over 50 yesterday and rained all day. 

Also, it's been close to two days in the bucking solution and the hair isn't slipping yet. I've stirred it several times and it looks like some of the white hair might be just starting to slip. I kind of expected it to be slipping pretty good by now, it's a small deer.

I pulled the hooves off today, extracted the leg tendons and boiled the bones. I made a tallow candle using False tinder fungus as a wick and it works great, doesn't really stink much or give off a lot of soot either. It seems to burn for a real long time and the fungus itself doesn't burn, only transports the tallow to the flame.

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## Winnie

That was my understanding also YCC. 
Any chance you could post pics of the end results of this experiment RWC?

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## your_comforting_company

Usually, in cold weather, say, below 60, it takes a large deer around 4-5 days. If the white hair around the belly and thin areas is _starting_ to slip, it's getting close. I'd say in another 2 days it should be good to clean off the hair. Cold works slower. just be patient  :Big Grin: 
Just an alternative.. some folks use eggs instead of brains. soy lecithin has been said to work, and my local grocer carries hog brains. After 7 days you do not really want to open that head, trust me...

And a little side suggestion.. the hocks would probably make a nice rawhide knife sheath  :Wink:

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## rwc1969

Definitely Winnie, I was thinking of doing a WIP of all the things I'm making out of this one deer, or breaking it up when finished into individual how-to's. Except I'm not really sure how to and I might look a little bit dumb. 

That's a good tip on the hockskins and eggs. A guy on another forum mentioned using the deer's ears as a sort of quickie knife sheath, I thought that was a cool idea too, but have yet to remove the ears, just too busy with school and everything else to get to it. 

I was hoping the hair would slip by tomorrow, because I'll have time to work it off, but I guess I'll be patient, yea right. LOL! Patience is not one of my virtues. I want it to slip nice and easy so I don't bust the grain.

Temps are plummeting to below freezing now and it smelled like snow earlier today. So, I'm biting my teeth hoping things don't freeze up, but it's way past due for them to freeze and let the snow fly.

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## rwc1969

As far as the pics go, could anyone explain to me how to post the tut/ pictorials with descriptions by each pic? I can't seem to figure it out.

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## your_comforting_company

Do You store your pics on photobucket? They have an IMG code that you just copy and paste into the thread. Then just type what you want above or below. You might be wanting it a little more fancy though.

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## crashdive123

I use Photbucket as well.  I've tried a few of the on-line photo storage sites and that is the one I prefer.

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## rwc1969

That's how you guys do the pictorials?

The bucking solution was slightly frozen over this morning, I'm thinking of bringing it indoors at night. Would that be a good idea? It has a tight fitting lid.

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## crashdive123

> That's how you guys do the pictorials?
> 
> The bucking solution was slightly frozen over this morning, I'm thinking of bringing it indoors at night. Would that be a good idea? It has a tight fitting lid.


Yep.  If you take a look at one of the pictorials and hit the quote button then you will be able to see what the img code thing looks like.  From Photobucket it's just a copy and past of the code, but that'll show you what it looks like in a post before the submit button is hit.

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## rwc1969

OK, I thought you guys were uploading the photos here and adding the tag pointing to them here, not photobucket. LOL! Thanks!

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## your_comforting_company

I would bring it in the garage at least, but make sure the lid is on good! It won't hurt anything for it to freeze, but it'll take forever to buck

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## rwc1969

Thanks YCC, I brought it in and the hair is maybe slipping just slightly more. 3 days and counting...

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## your_comforting_company

Like I say, I've had large bucks take 5 days to buck sufficiently to scrape into buckskin. It would have had to go longer to "wipe clean" to keep the grain on.

This is an endeavor that will teach you a lot about yourself. patience, mettle, mental, physical, resourcefulness... at least it has been for me. I'm sure you'll find it just as rewarding as I do.

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## rwc1969

Is this the right stuff? The pic shows the ingredients. It's called fast acting lime by Pennington.

I looked everywhere around and could not find hydrated lime or pickling lime. I even went online to look at local Lowe's and Home Depot and can't find it. It's not available locally that I can find.

If this is the right stuff then I may need to whip up another batch and tranfer the hide as removing it to flip and stir has reduced the amount of water in the bucket.

I had this same problem with growing mushrooms and ended up using pelletized gypsum.

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## Rick

RWC, Hydrated Lime is also Calcium Hydroxide if that helps. You can try one of these guys. 

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CEwQ8wIwBA#

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## your_comforting_company

Calcium Carbonate 95.5%
The grocery store calls it "slaked lime" or "hydrated lime" and it comes in a plastic container like this: http://store.mrswagesstore.com/mrswagpiclim.html
In fact, that's the exact kind I use. around $3 a pound and that's usually enough to do 2 hides.
That's the ticket! I bet it was way cheaper than what I buy at the grocers.

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## your_comforting_company

Actually, this is exactly what the can in my hand right now looks like.
http://www.yardlover.com/mrs-wages-pickling-lime-1-lb

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## Rick

YCC, are you sure it says Calcium Carbonate? They are very closely related but Hydrated Lime and Calcium Carbonate are not the same. Hydrated Lime is what happens when you add water to Calcium Oxide. Hence the name Calcium Hydroxide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hydroxide

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## rwc1969

Thanks Rick.

So, ycc are you saying the stuff I have should work?

None of the stores here have pickling lime because they say it's out of season. In fact, walwart was the only one who said they even stocked it in season.

I got the above stuff at Lowe's, 7 bucks for 6 lbs. They also had a 25 or so lb. bag for like 15 bucks, but I didn't think I'd need that much and am short on cash as it is. Nobody here I've talked to has even heard of hydrated lime and they always point me to the stuff I bought or pelletized gypsum.

Interestingly enough I was told sheetrock or drywall is compressed calcium carbonate. I can't verify that though.

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## crashdive123

I believe that gypsum is calcium sulfate.

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## RunsWithDeer

> Is this the right stuff? The pic shows the ingredients. It's called fast acting lime by Pennington.
> 
> I looked everywhere around and could not find hydrated lime or pickling lime. I even went online to look at local Lowe's and Home Depot and can't find it. It's not available locally that I can find.
> 
> If this is the right stuff then I may need to whip up another batch and tranfer the hide as removing it to flip and stir has reduced the amount of water in the bucket.
> 
> I had this same problem with growing mushrooms and ended up using pelletized gypsum.


Hydrated Lime is a fine powder that will dissolve easily in water, other than that it is pretty much the same as garden lime.  It can usually be found at Home Depot or Lowes in the masonry section, because it is mainly used as an additive to concrete.  I bought some at Home Depot in Benton Harbor, MI last year.

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## Rick

If what YCC is using works then by all means use it. He knows FAR FAR more about this stuff than I do. I'm just questioning the ingredients based on the common name.

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## rwc1969

There are different, but similar chemicals that produce the desired effect and different storebought products that contain those chemicals. This is where I'm somewhat confused.

RunsWithDeer, thanks, our local HomeDepot supposedly doesn't stock hydrated lime, which is odd considering it's intended use and the fact that they are a super warehouse of hardware and construction supplies.

I am just a bit impatient and anxious not knowing what to expect or when to expect it and was wondering if the stuff I used was perhaps not correct.

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## rwc1969

From what I understand hydrated lime is the least expensive option for bucking hides. Other than perhaps using wood ash if the wood and fuel is free.

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## your_comforting_company

What you have should work just fine. The only difference is 4.5% of "other stuff" where what I use sometimes is 100%.

As long as you mixed it strong enough for some to settle to the bottom it's perfect. It will only get so strong, not sure exactly what pH.

I think the main thing slowing you down is the temperature. When it's cold it takes a while. When it's hot weather (above 70) they go really fast, almost faster than you really want it to. There's a sweet spot somewhere around 65 degrees where a small hide might only take a day to buck, and a large one might take 3 days.

It's been my experience that slower is better when making buckskin as the "bond" between the two layers of skin (Dermis and fiber network) is weakened and makes scraping really easy. Of course yours isn't going to be buckskin, but rather a grain leather, and might require a little longer to slip the hair easily.

Patience my friend.

*Wood ash lye was used in times past as an ingredient in making "cinder blocks" and mortar mixes. It is the reason concrete has a warning that it "may cause burns. Wear gloves"*
*The active ingredient in Tums antacid tabs is Calcium Carbonate!*

Don't worry. All things in good time. The lime you are using is correct.

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## Batch

> Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime Gets the Job Done
> 
> For pickling cucumbers the old-fashioned way for extra crispness and flavor! Makes Cucumber Lime Pickles (recipe on each bag), Green Tomato Pickles, Watermelon Rinds and Citron Pickles. *Food grade calcium hydroxide* with no additives or preservatives.


The description from your link (both links) say calcium hydroxide, YCC. Or am I looking at something wrong here?

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## Rick

Batch, I think the 95.5% Calcium Carbonate reference was to the picture RWC posted. I was a little confused at the start as well.

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## Rick

YCC, I'm really amazed at the amount of knowledge you have in this process. Not just to know how to do it but why doing X works. I know your thirst for knowledge runs into the why's and not just the hows but your research and tenacity to learn everything related to the process is genuinely impressive.

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## your_comforting_company

Thanks Rick!

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to RWC's pic. The common names and chemical names can be a little daunting. 
Hydrated lime is Calcium Hydroxide. Slaked Lime I believe is Calcium Carbonate, although this link would have one believe they are the same thing> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hydroxide
CaCO3 comes from burned shells> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate

Either way, we are working with the loose hydrogen bonds in the skin (read mucus). The extra oxygen atom (CaCO3) will bind with the hydrogen in the skin when using calcium carbonate (leaving you with Calcium oxide and carbon dioxide, and *snot*). When using Calcium Hydroxide, you end up with calcium oxide and water because you have an OH- (meaning it needs one more H to be stable so it robs one from the skin).

Both do the same thing and are interchangeable in my opinion. Sorry for the confusion!!

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## rwc1969

It's definitely interesting how the different chemicals work. Thanks for the clarification YCC.

Since I added 3 lbs. to 2 gallons of water I'd say the mix is strong as it can be, LOL. I thought the bag I bought was 3 lbs., turns out it's 6. I was so busy reading the ingredients and trying to get an egg to float I didn't even bother to read the weight on the package until yesterday.

Anyway, like I said before the water was getting low so I added another gallon and it's still thick as pea soup, lots of extra CaCO3. But, now I can swish it around better and the skin isn't so cramped. 

I'm bringing it in at night. The temps are dropping now, it's below freezing as I type and getting colder. We got our first flurries of snow today. The mix smells a bit like raw meat, but not stinky.

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## your_comforting_company

the smell you describe is pretty accurate.. kinda like raw deer, but not rotten. I'd say you're still good. Check it tomorrow and you can probably wipe a lot of the hair off. When you get enough off it will sink instead of floating. Deer hair is hollow and will float.
I usually mix about 1/2 a pound to 4 gallons, so yeah, it's plenty strong LOL!
Have you noticed a yellowish "scum" on top of the water? That's the *snot* coming out!
It should be getting pretty close by now, even for a big one.. of course, it rarely gets below freezing here so it could take as much as (so i've read) 7-10 days (but I think that's a little far..)

when you start dehairing.. wear rubber gloves, rubber boots, and an apron.. that stuff will ruin your clothes!

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## crashdive123

You could always borrow Rick's thong. :Innocent:

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## Rick

I don't think so.

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## crashdive123

Sent it out to the cleaners huh?

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## Rick

I'll share a lot but not my thong. That would fall into the Euwwww! catagory.

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## rwc1969

I haven't noticed the yellow scum, but when you say rub off you mean it will rub right off without force?

As it is i can pull hair out, but it takes a little effort and some hairs just break off.

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## your_comforting_company

it will take a little bit of force, but not a lot.. like wiping your hand across it will make a big mess. it might still take a dull tool to get some of the hairs out; some of them can be stubborn. 

I really wish I could give specifics on this stuff but a lot of it is guesswork, especially if you don't have fancy bark-o-meters, and pH testers, and a gizmogeewhizbang. It's really organic (not sure if that's the right word) and mostly 'measured' by feel.

I would _think_ that today would be the day (day 5, right?), and would take it out and give it a test scrape/wipe. If you have to use a lot of effort to get the hair off, put it back in the buck and try again tomorrow. You'd really have to just 'set it and forget it' to ruin it in the buck.
As long as the buck strength is maintained and temps kept relatively low, it should not rot. I'm sure your buck is strong enough (overkill!), so it's mostly just a waiting game.

the scum kinda resembles chicken broth.. thin and a little greasy-looking. It might not be noticable, but I usually see it when my hides are pretty close to being bucked. Just one of the things I observed that I don't recall anyone else mentioning.

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## rwc1969

Tomorrow will be day 7. I left her indoors all day today so she could warm up good, it's below freezing outside. I pulled some hair near the neck and was able to easily clear a 2" patch to bare skin/ epidermis?. So, I think tomorrow she'll be going back on the pvc to get the hair off. WooHoo!

Just to make sure. I carefully remove the hair and epidermis leaving the grain on, then flip it, put a towel under it for cushioning the grain, and carefully remove the membrane from the flesh side and then into the creek, right?

Is it easy to distinguish the epidermis from the grain on the hair side? I don't want to bust the grain.

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## your_comforting_company

It will take a pretty concerted effort, or a really sharp tool to bust the grain. a light pressure will be sufficient, tho, at this stage, to remove the hair. The epidermis is basically just dead skin and often just looks like dirt under the hair. The grain will be slick and shiny. Right now, it might be a little yellow or greenish from the bucking, but rinsing will produce a very nice white. Hair and epidermis will come off pretty much at the same time.
Towel on your beam, flip it, and get the membrane off. You are more likely to bust the grain at this point than the previous. The membrane can be frustrating to get off sometimes as it's harder to tell where it ends and the fiber network begins. You don't have to get it all off.. this stuff is soft anyway. the disadvantage of leaving it on, the inside of your leather will look tatty. Get the bulk off, and let the rest ride.
Be careful tho about your pressure.. usually when I tear the grain it's when membraning, not dehairing! I think you'll get the feel for it pretty quick and it shouldn't be a problem.
rinse in the creek, squeegie excess water out, and freeze it till you get your bark / tea / stuff ready.

It really is that easy!

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## randyt

interesting info guys, I'm curious could a fella use commercial lye to buck hides? Most hardware's have drain cleaner that is 100 percent lye.

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## rwc1969

Ok, I'm using a smoothed out Box elder branch as a dowel to remove the hair. It started off good and I could swipe off big long sections down to the hide, nice and clean and free of hair with little effort. Then I noticed in spots, especially near the edge and seemingly more so on the white hair that it would break off near the skin and leave stubbys in the skin not removing all the hair. It seemed it was taking more and more pressure to remove it in these spots and it wouldn't come clean off, little stubbies left.

So, I put it back in the lime after getting about halfway thru de-hairing. Is it normal for these little stubs to remain? They don't rub out without greater effort than I think is required. Most won't rub out period.

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## rwc1969

Also, is it better to remove the hair with the direction it lays or against the direction it lays?

I had the above problem either way.

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## your_comforting_company

I try to go with the grain of the hair, or across it, but never against it (except at the very top of the neck).
Do you have a paint scraper thingy? you can hold it at a right angle and gengly remove the stubbies usually.
Looks like you got it right to the grain. Knew right where to stop! Good job

I think you did the right thing by giving it another day in the buck. Tomorrow should be prime and I'd expect the stubbies to come on out. usually the white slips first, then the brown hair, but I find each skin to be a little different. The back side of a knife (dull edge) and a little bit more pressure should get them out, or any dull flat tool.

RandyT. Commercial lye (KOH) can be used, but I don't recommend it because of the dangers involved in handling it. Also the pH needs to be correct.. somewhere around 12.9 - 13.0. If it's too strong, the commercial lye can eat away at the skin. I have not used commercial lye, mostly because of my oafish ways lol. I don't want that stuff gettin on my pretty face (har har har). *If you do use KOH, always add the crystals to the water, never water to crystals.* 4 oz. per 10 gallons of water, or 2 oz. per 5 gallons, the latter is for one or two hides.

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## rwc1969

Thanks YCC, I was going to use a dull blade but was afraid I'd bust the grain, will get back to it tomorrow.

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## randyt

> I try to go with the grain of the hair, or across it, but never against it (except at the very top of the neck).
> Do you have a paint scraper thingy? you can hold it at a right angle and gengly remove the stubbies usually.
> Looks like you got it right to the grain. Knew right where to stop! Good job
> 
> I think you did the right thing by giving it another day in the buck. Tomorrow should be prime and I'd expect the stubbies to come on out. usually the white slips first, then the brown hair, but I find each skin to be a little different. The back side of a knife (dull edge) and a little bit more pressure should get them out, or any dull flat tool.
> 
> RandyT. Commercial lye (KOH) can be used, but I don't recommend it because of the dangers involved in handling it. Also the pH needs to be correct.. somewhere around 12.9 - 13.0. If it's too strong, the commercial lye can eat away at the skin. I have not used commercial lye, mostly because of my oafish ways lol. I don't want that stuff gettin on my pretty face (har har har). *If you do use KOH, always add the crystals to the water, never water to crystals.* 4 oz. per 10 gallons of water, or 2 oz. per 5 gallons, the latter is for one or two hides.


I've not used it either. I try to scrounge up what ever I can from nature if and when possible.  But I figured it may be a option for folks that don't have the scrounging opportunities that some of us have.

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## your_comforting_company

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This is a pic of me removing the grain. You'll notice I'm putting a lot of effort down and forward. Hopefully you can see that difference in the layers. Be careful on the thinner areas, around the rump and belly as they usually grain pretty easy. The hair should fall right out today, and if not, I'd probably opt to struggle through it, rather than buck any longer. 8 days seems to me an aweful long time to buck but I work in much warmer (relatively of course) weather. Rarely gets below freezing here.

How are your bones and other projects going? I didn't mean for this to become a focus on the skin alone (apologies!!). great job with the tallow btw!

If anyone does use commercial lye, (NOT Drano) make sure it's 100%, and ALWAYS wear gloves, apron, and eye protection. I do use this stuff to make lye soap and it's pretty scary because I'm so clumsy!

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## rwc1969

I can't really see what you're showing in the pic, but I think it'll be ok, if I bust some grain it just wont come out as nice is all. I'll be careful not to though.

I removed and dried the foreleg tendons and needle bones, then heated the hooves and removed them, then boiled the bones to get most flesh off and am drying them. 1 strip of back sinew and the hockskins are drying, probably dried already, on a board in the shed.

Other than making the tallow candle and firestarters which are fungus and punkwood soaked in meted tallow that's pretty much it. 

I'm getting ready to head out and harvest that fallen oaks bark in hopes that it's not too washed out. Other than that I'm probably going to try black tea, although I'm getting mixed stories on whether or not it will work to tan hides and I'm completely unsure of the concentrations to use.

I have an old cooler which I'm thinking of using for the bark tan as it is larger and will allow the hide to spread out more. I'm really hoping this oak bark will work. I'm either gonna de-hair it when I get back or do it tomorrow time depending, I'm back to school now and it's crunch time.

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## rwc1969

OK, got the hair off except the little stubbies that I showed in the pic above, some were just way too stubborn even using the backside of my machete. So, I got all I could off and made up a new lime solution and stuck er back in. I also started the flesh side removing the membrane to get a feel for it. It seems to come off easy, but it's hard to tell if it's coming off or I'm just squeeging the water and slime out??

But, I went and harvested some of the oak bark I was talking about and ran a quick test run to see how dark it would come out. As soon as I put the one pound of bark into the one gallon of water it started to change color. I boiled it for about 5 minutes and this is how it came out. I'm thinking if I gather 15 lbs. of this and mash and boil it down hard it should be plenty strong enough.

What do you think?

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For reference, this bark wasn't mashed or nothing, just cut off the tree with my machete and dumped in the pot. the bark on the younger sections of the tree was still green and the leaves were still attached and some were green which leads me to believe this tree fell when the leaves started changing about 1 month or so back. So, it hasn't been sitting long. 

I am curious, if this bark is acceptable, which bark would be best to harvest, the young small branches, the main trunk, or somewhere in the middle? Or, does it even matter. This bark came from the midsection of the tree. I'd like to go back tomorrow and harvest as much as possible to store for the future. This is a variety of Red oak btw.

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## your_comforting_company

have another go at the stubbies tomorrow while doing the membrane. They'll eventually come out.

The liquor looks pretty fair. I think you should boil it longer. To my knowledge, it makes no difference if it comes off the little branches, or the base of the trunk. The Laurel oak that I used was off firewood sized pieces and it worked fine. Chipping it up will get the tannins out faster but I think boiling longer has the same effect.
Also, you can boil each set more than once, and if you want it more concentrated.. just boil the liquor down some more. You're definately on the right track!

If the tree still has green leaves on it, it's gonna be a good one to use.

I'd say get about 25lbs if you can.. it's better to have more than you need!

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## rwc1969

I am going to fill a 5 gallon pail as much as possible, but this bark is a bear getting off the tree.

So far the hardest part has been de-hairing the skin which has taken 3 hours so far. Getting the bark off the tree will likely take just as long.

Skinning was easy, Fleshing was easy, bucking/ liming the skin was easy, getting the membrane off seems easy, but I guess I'll know how well that went once I soak it in the bark liquor.

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## your_comforting_company

dehairing can be tedious because you're being so careful. Usually I take it off with the grain lol, two birds. The membraning is easy, and I'm sure you got it right. Really, you'd have to be trying a pretty wild experiment to mess up this process! If the flesh side doesn't look stringy and tatty, then you did an excellent job.

If you can get the outer and inner bark off at the same time, you can boil them together, but of course you'll need more weight. Often it takes longer to gather materials for a process than the actual process itself takes. If you think it's going to take a few days to gather enough bark, you can store the hide in the fridge, or freezer if longer than that.

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## rwc1969

Well I stuffed the 5 gallon pail chuck full of bark and it weighed 17 lbs. -2 for the pail is 15 on the nose, of course it has the outer bark on. This was about a 10-15 square foot section of tree that I removed the bark from. It took just over an hour using a hammer and utilty bar. Once started I could quickly hammer out nice long 2" wide strips right down to the wood.

I could go back and harvest more I suppose, but was thinking this would be enough?? This is a small deer. BTW, my hands are now brown. Actually, I expected the bark to weigh more, I think I will go back for another bucket tomorrow.

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## your_comforting_company

If your hands are stained brown you got PRIME bark, my friend. Excellent.

It's hard to guess how much it'll take, I would probably go for one more bucket since the bark will otherwise be wasted once the tree is dead. You might want to do another deer once you've done this one  :Wink: 

Sounds like all that's left is to make the bath, and wait!

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## rwc1969

Oh, I want to do more, actually thinking along the lines of a bark tan fur on squirrel by applying the tan to only the flesh side. Or maybe a brain tan squirrel, not sure. I saw a rabbit on the side of the road today dead, but it was too magled or I'd have stopped. I've got my eyes peeled for roadkill, but haven't seen any recently.

Getting that hair off was a pain, but it is rewarding to see a nice clean hide. It seems so small now and thin. I still have to remove the stubbies though and finish the membrane, but it's looking like something different than what it was if that makes any sense at all. LOL!

The only thing that really concerns me is the amount of blood that was on the hide to start. I squeegied as much off while fleshing as possible, but it was stained pretty badly.

 I'm not sure if the lime will remove the blood or will I need to wash it at some point?

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## your_comforting_company

You can wash it after the rinse. Blood stains will add character to the finished hide, so don't sweat it too much. those spots will be darker.

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## rwc1969

Thanks YCC, it appears a lot of the blood has washed out with the lime, but there are a few dark spots left.

Woe is me, the little hairs still won't slip, I'm leaving them in. I even had a hard time removing some of the pigment areas underneath the hair. I'm thinking the lime I bought is not good for the job. That's the only variable that is out of wack.

The skin has soaked in temps from 40-70 degrees for 10 or 11 days now, and 3 days ago I made a fresh batch of lime solution. Like I said it's the leg hair and white belly hair that's killing me. Unfortunately those are the thinner areas of skin, but even with great force and a somewhat dull blade they won't budge at all whatsoever. Except for the very nap of the neck all the rest of the hair slipped with just the lightest stroke of my smoothed over stick. This seems the exact opposite of everything I've read, confusing.

I think I have over 7 hours into de-hairing this skin and I'm calling it good.

Time to flip it, get the membrane off the flesh side and rinse this puppy out.

The weather has went from high 50's yesterday and rain to 20's and snow. I took the hide outside to de-hair it and withing 15 minutes it was starting to freeze. Winds are between 10 and 30 miles per hour. I brought it in and am finishing it in the bathtub, much more comfy, lol, and it's not freezing solid.

Next time I do this I will either use wood ash, lye, or specifically hydrated or pickling lime. Actually, I think I will avoid the lime altogether and go with the wood ash or straight up lye.

I did go back and get another pail of bark, the tree looks like an angry beaver had it's way with it now, it's pretty naked. I now have 28 lbs. of bark with outer bark on.

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## crashdive123

> looks like an angry beaver had it's way with it now


Now that right there is funny.  I don't care who you are.

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## Rick

I'd love to see the look on your wife's face when she walks in and sees you in the bathtub with that hide. 

"Don't tell, I don't want to know."
"But honey, it's not what it looks like, honest."

Maybe you need to give that thing a shave.

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## your_comforting_company

It does sound right opposite of what normally happens, perhaps it was a thicker winter coat on the belly and delicate areas? Usually the neck is the toughest spot and the white falls out. wierd. Since it bucked the rest of the hide, I think your lime was fine, and blood stains are pretty common.
28 lbs will be plenty to do this hide, and probably enough to do another.
The stubbies will be fine too. they'll probably disappear in tanning, or you can shave them off with a sharp knife once the hide is "tight". It won't affect the tanning.

Sounds like you are getting part of the storm that passed through here yesterday. Today winds 30+ mph, temps crazy low considering it was 80 degrees yesterday. Work was hell today!

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## rwc1969

I don't know about the weather, but winter came today and it's here to stay according to the weatherman. I wouldn't have wanted to be on a roof with that wind you had.

I finally got the membrane off for the most part too. The membrane had reset up or something and was a bear removing. Basically a 1/4" at a time almost as if it were a dry scrape from what I've read. Some spots would slide off and most others were a nightmare, no other way to say it. But, it's done for now and rinsed. I have it soaking in 5 gallons of cold water and will move it to the creek in the morning. Hopefully a muskrat or scuba diving cat doesn't run off with it. If so I'm setting traps and they will be my next project. I'm not kidding!

I got all the lime cleaned off my boots and everything else, it's messy stuff. Just need to wash out the buckets and get the bark chopped up and going.

The de-hairing and de-mambraning process actually took upwards of 7 hours total. 2 -1 hour sessions and 1 -5 hour session today. I may have took an hour break in there somewhere and 1 hour was cleanup. I really did not expect it to be so difficult and take so long, but it's done now and I feel good.

It took me 3 hours to gather the bark. So, I think I'm around 12 hours in now starting from skin on deer. 1/2 hour to skin, 1 hour to flesh, 1/2 hour messing around with the egg, lol, and 7 hours de-hairing/ membraning. But, in reality 3 hours was spent waiting, cleaning up, and taking smoke breaks.

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## rwc1969

I'll try and get together some pics and such of the things that stood out to me, but haven't really had time to mess with the editing and such, been too busy just trying to get this far and now I need to catch up on schoolwork. Finals are in two weeks and I have three lengthy projects coming due.

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## your_comforting_company

Hehe. If you were making buckskin, you'd still have about 13 more hours of work to go! 7 hours is actually pretty good time considering this is your first one. After doing quite a few buckskins, I average around 20 hours per hide. I don't count cleanup time or "wait" time either...

If you want to speed up the rinse, you can squeegie it, rinse, repeat.

And remember, Schoolwork FIRST. This is just a side project!

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## rwc1969

Alright, I guess this will be the thread where I post all the pics of the tanning process. It wouldn't make sense for me to do another write up on the entire process as YCC's Bark tan utility leather thread does that better than I could with my limited knowledge. But, I do want to point out a few things that didn't seem quite clear to me and a few things that may still not be clear to me.

First off I put the hide in the creek to rinse 2 days ago, nothing has ran off with it yet, but a deer crossed 2' from it overnight. there's not much to show there.

Next, before I rinsed it I had to get the pigment layer off the hair side and the membrane layer off the flesh side.

This pic shows the skin half way through removing the membrane, at least I think the darker area to the right has had the membrane removed, at least for the most part. The stuff on the left is just a gooey, fatty layer and once you get under it the skin has a much less gooey feeling.

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This next pic shows the hide after membraning, the lighter area on the left is the flesh side and the dark area to the right is the hair side. You can see in the center the hairs that just would not slip.

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After I got the hide soaking I wanted to start the bark liqour. Here is the tree I removed the bark from, I believe it has been sitting for less than 2 months after falling. I stripped from the foreground of the pic all the way to the rearmost bare spot along with about 6 squre feet from other locations. The area you're seeing is the mid section of the tree from halway to about 3/4 of the way up the tree. This section of tree had the best inner bark per chunk ratio. The outer bark was not too thick and the inner was about 1/4" thick. The outer limbs had thin inner bark, and the main trunk had really thick outer bark, but the inner bark layer was much darker meaning more tannins, I think. LOL! Buty, it was just too tough to get off and it would have taken much more by volume to get the same amount of tannins, which is the end goal.

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This pic shows the golden inner bark sandwiched between the white interior wood and the dark outer bark. I think this is helpful to someone who may not understand the make up of a tree.

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These are the tools I used to remove the bark, a ball peen hammer and a Roughneck utility bar. I was able to fill this 5 gallon bucket in about an hour or just over. This bucket isn't quite full and held 13 pounds of bark. I filled it full the first time and it held 15 pounds and took 1-1/2 hours to fill. I wore safety glasses and earplugs and would recommend using a wooden mallet rather than a ball peen for safety reasons.

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Once I got the bark home I shredded it up by hand, it was easy and took just over an hour to shred 10 pounds of bark. I did not separate the outer bark or bits of wood that were incidental. It all went in the pot. I found trying to remove the outer bark to be very unproductive, it was hard and did not separate easily.

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Here the bark is boiling, I thought this pic looked neat. But, I wanted to show what I used, a 6 gallon SS pot filled to within 4" of top with 10 pounds of bark. I then added 3 gallons of tap water and once boiling let it roll for just over an hour. The tap water can supposedly leave spots on the leather, but from what I understand it's purely visual, does not affect functionality. I need confirmation on that though.

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I repeated the boiling and pouring three times per YCC's tut and here's what I ended up with. Going from right to left; first pour, second pour, third pour, and finally 4th pour. The fourth pour was not boiled, I simply added hot tap water to the boiling hot bark and let it steep in a 5 gallon bucket just to see what the results would be. You can see how each pouring gets progressively lighter. In a white 5 gallon bucket the 1st pour is like black coffee, here it looks much lighter.

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That's it for now.

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## rwc1969

BTW, schoolwork is over halfway done. I've spent over 20 hours on it in the past two or three days and have about 8 hours to go.

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## crashdive123

Thanks for the pics.  Looks like your learning curve is steep.  Well done.

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## Rick

Another great tut, RWC. Do you think a draw knife would make bark removal easier?

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## your_comforting_company

The first picture is an excellent membraning job. That is better than I get most of mine. Great work!
Don't sweat those couple little hairs. They can be trimmed off later. Looks to me like you did a really good job with that too.
Most folks, like me have hard well water. The calcium can cause little spots, but it hasn't been a problem. With city water, the chlorine or salt (depending on how they purify) Also has some chemical properties that are able to react with the stuff in the bucket, but I don't have city water, so I can't say either way on that one. I have read about it, but not used city water.

You've done an excellent job so far. With a little research, and just "getting your hands dirty" I felt like it was a really intuitive process. Would you agree? I know it seemed a little daunting at first, but now that you're at the end of the process, what do you think? Easy for anybody to do?

Just remember to use the LAST pouring first and the first pouring last. You are well on your way to completing this project

@Rick, I tried using my drawknife back when I first tried this and the hammer + axe combo (or chisel or wrecking bar) worked better for me. 

If you chip fresh bark and it changes colors quickly, i.e. turns brown or red, that is how you know you have good bark. The tannins, when exposed to open air, oxidize. If it stains your hands you know you have REALLY good bark.

Wish I could give you some more rep rwc, Thanks for posting these pics. Hopefully you'll inspire someone else to give this a try! You've done really great so far. Just make sure you get the schoolwork first!! Two thumbs up!!

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## rwc1969

I would agree that it is an intuitive process and skinning this recent deer was easier knowing how the skin and such is made up. I suppose I paid a little more attention to the details this time around because of this process.

Also, I think it is easy enough for anyone to do as long as they have a little patience, a place to work, and don't mind getting a little drty and putting out some physical effort. I really didn't get too dirty though and so far none of the smells have been terribly offensive as i had imagined.

and, eventhough I am trying to break it down to a science and cover all the bases it's not rocket science. The tut you provided should allow anyone wanting to do this to do it.

Interesting point on the bark oxidizing. I didn't notice that, but probably wasn't paying attention.

*How do you feel about using that 4th pouring that wasn't boiled as a 1st bath?* It has darkened up somewhat since I posted the pics of each pouring.

Also, where's that brain tan tut? *I have brains and another skin now. I think I will freeze this skin and raw brains until spring though and go from there. Is that doable?* This skin doesn't appear to need fleshing as all the visible meat and fat is still on the deer. It looked just like the one you posted in your skinning tut, that thin layer of meat was left on the deer and I even kept it from peeling around the neck region where I had trouble the last time. 

Again man, thanks for all the help and tuts, you really do know your stuff. You'd be surprised what crazy stuff I read while searching for bark tan topics on the net, some good, some bad, and some was just out there. You could tell by reading some of the articles that the folks had likely never skinned a deer let alone done this, but were talking as if they were experts. It's refreshing to get first hand knowledge passed on in the way that you do it. It takes time to put it all together and I appreciate that very much.

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## rwc1969

> Another great tut, RWC. Do you think a draw knife would make bark removal easier?


I don't recall ever using a draw knife, except maybe back in wood shop, but the outer bark is quite tough and takes a little work to get through and to me it would take great effort to simply draw the knife under the bark, it is held to the tree securely, at least on this oak, whick I believe is Red oak proper, not sure though, but it is in the Red oak family.

I initially tried using my machete as a makeshift drawknife and it seemed it took a pounding force to get the blade under and along the bark, it doesn't simply slice off.

That utility bar worked excellent really, I just don't like pounding steel on steel is all, especially in below freezing temps. I have a few vids I'm slowly getting together as this progresses and one shows the bark coming off in fast motion. It's pretty neat! Once you make your first cut in the bark it peels off pretty quick and the ut. bar has a tendency to stay under the bark and lift it away from the tree which helps greatly.

Honestly, it was much easier removing the layers from the tree than it was removing them from the deer and the two are very similar in construction on a basic level. I find this entire process fascinating. Eventhough there's a fair amount of physical work involved I find it very rewarding.

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## your_comforting_company

Ok.. I won't make you twist my arm. I'll work on a braintanning tute in my spare time. You can store a fleshed skin (if it doesn't need it, it's good to go) and brain in the freezer almost indefinately. I double bag 'em in grocery bags. I would apply the same rules to the skin as any meat.. 6 months to a year.. after that it'll probably get freezerburn, etc. Freezing till spring is totally doable, but try to time it so the temps are not higher than 70-75 degrees.
A word of warning... braintanning is a monster as far as labor is concerned, and it's HIGHLY ADDICTIVE.

The 4th pouring, I'd probably start off with, undiluted, then add the third pouring a week or so later and dilute it depending on how "thick" the liquor looks. Like I say, it's not a really specific method. I would think the 4th pouring would be thin enough to start without dilution. If there isn't enough liquor to cover the hide, add some of the third pouring. I don't think it'll be too strong. About like a cup of tea, and gradually increase to almost "soup", hard to see through.
(I think I answered all the questions lol)

There are a lot of different opinions on how and what, but really it all boils down to chemistry and a little common sense. It has been said, "There are as many recipes and methods for brain (or bark) tanning as there are tanners" and I find this to hold true. There are lots of folks out there who have tanned thousands of hides and do it for a living. Whether they understand the chemistry is debatable, but they always reach the same end.
If we end with the same product, using different methods, then it must not be the method, _but the underlying sciences that take place behind the methods._

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## Gilmore

i have 3 deer carcasses from shotgun laying out in the back field.... better go see if those bones are clean yet! buzzards work good to clean em off the lazy way  :Sleep:

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## rwc1969

> Ok.. I won't make you twist my arm. I'll work on a braintanning tute in my spare time. You can store a fleshed skin (if it doesn't need it, it's good to go) and brain in the freezer almost indefinately. I double bag 'em in grocery bags. I would apply the same rules to the skin as any meat.. 6 months to a year.. after that it'll probably get freezerburn, etc. *Done!* 
> 
> Freezing till spring is totally doable, but try to time it so the temps are not higher than 70-75 degrees. A word of warning... braintanning is a monster as far as labor is concerned, and it's HIGHLY ADDICTIVE. *That's why I want to get all the info and equpment I need ready now so when the temps start getting above freezing I can get on it and have time set aside for the labor.*
> 
> The 4th pouring, I'd probably start off with, undiluted, then add the third pouring a week or so later and dilute it depending on how "thick" the liquor looks. Like I say, it's not a really specific method. I would think the 4th pouring would be thin enough to start without dilution. If there isn't enough liquor to cover the hide, add some of the third pouring. I don't think it'll be too strong. About like a cup of tea, and gradually increase to almost "soup", hard to see through.
> (I think I answered all the questions lol) *Hey, I'm just gettin' started. I have an entire list, just trying to spring 'em on you slowly, LOL. JK!*
> 
> There are a lot of different opinions on how and what, but really it all boils down to chemistry and a little common sense. It has been said, "There are as many recipes and methods for brain (or bark) tanning as there are tanners" and I find this to hold true. There are lots of folks out there who have tanned thousands of hides and do it for a living. Whether they understand the chemistry is debatable, but they always reach the same end.
> If we end with the same product, using different methods, then it must not be the method, _but the underlying sciences that take place behind the methods._


That's what I've noticed too while perusing this subject. Some swear by a certain method and condemn the next, but most seem to end with good results, so I suppose it's a preference or "what I'm used to" kinda thing. Wet scrape vs. dry scrape for instance, It seems most prefer one over the other and have strong reasons why they don't like the other method.

Anyway, I checked the skin again today and it had been moved once more. This time it was up over a log and the part exposed was frozen, hope that didn't effect it. I'm not sure what's getting a hold of it, but I moved it a little further down in an area that will hopefully get less traffic.

I'm not noticing a change in the texture of the skin as you described, but it ddidn't really have a distinct rubbery or swollen feel or look to start with.* I'm considering just pulling it on Wednesday, squeegy it and start the tan.??*

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## rwc1969

And for any who are interested I posted some vids of this process so far and some of the things I ran into along the way.

The process has pretty much been explained in YCCs tut and expanded by him even more in this thread so I won't describe each vid, it pretty self explanatory at this point.

Fleshing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RflPvyT-olM

Liming/ Bucking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTTumhFU2D0

De-hairing/ removing the membrane, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfY_PW51MNo

Harvesting and prepping the bark/ liquor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9-gKENRJ1k

At this point I'm just waiting for the hide to rinse and will then start the actual tanning process.

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## your_comforting_company

First of all, thank you for documenting these steps with video. It's something I've been wanting to do. A BIG two-thumbs up from me!
Also I'd like to say you've done fantastic with the hide so far. I really hope a critter doesn't get it.

You might not have noticed the change so much at the bucking phase because at first the skin was filled with gooey goodness, which has now been washed out. If the skin feels lighter and more stretchy it's ready to tan. I'd give it at least one more day, maybe two just depending on how it feels, and start the tan. 
This being your first one the changes aren't so noticable, after this one though, you'll kinda know what to look for.

I got started on the BT tute last night, but I still gotta get pics of my setup and tools and get it organized. I'll try to get the tools soon so you can get your stuff together.

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## crashdive123

Excellent videos.

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## rwc1969

Thanks Crash, and that 'd be cool ycc. I appreciate it.

I have my new skin folded and wrapped in on itself, flesh side in, double wrapped in a plastic garbage bag inside a paper grocery bag and into my new ice box along with a ziploc container full of brains, lol, the meat from both deer, and my shrooms.

I still have room in there for about 3 more deer and another hide or two. Convenient!

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## Rick

Way cool job, RWC. How can you and YCC walk around with 5 green thingies? That just looks heavy.

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## your_comforting_company

yeah.. it makes you walk funny too.

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## Winnie

I love watching this stuff! It's something I won't have the chance to do myself, but it's great to see the job done. Thankyou.

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## rwc1969

You're welcome Winnie and Rick. I noticed i've been walkin' a lil funny lately, thought it was the sore butt from sittin' on a bucket de-hairing.  :Smile:

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## SARKY

What can you make with deer?.........Me dinner!

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## rwc1969

That's #1 on the list Sarky. I have the liver and kidneys soaking in salt water right now and will probably be cooking them up later today. The inner loins are history.

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## your_comforting_company

You know, the dehairing video is really a cut above and is a great display of adaptability. The truth is that you just have to do it and figure it out just like you said. I think it's better than what's on the DVD's that are out there because it is REAL, and it's how anybody who goes at it for the first time is going to see it.
It should definately go in the utility leather thread. A really excellent video. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

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## rwc1969

By all means feel free to put it in there YCC, thanks.

After 6 days I decided to pull the skin from the creek.

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As you can see it's not white or anywhere close. It is now all stained up from the debris and such in the creek and is quite dirty too. There is a large orange stain along the bottom edge in the pic which came from something in the creek. Thinking back I think the creek was a bad idea. The creek level had went down greatly in the past two weeks and there wasn't much flow. Also, this creek, as most every creek and river in Southern Michigan is full of sediment, leaves and such and has no real rocks or gravel in it. I think if you're going to soak it in a creek it needs to be a swift flow of water over gravel and rocks in a stream that is not filled with sediment. That is very hard to find in Southern Michigan as all our creeks and rivers have been choked out long ago due to farming, household cleaning chemicals, industry, logging activity, etc. etc.

Nevertheless, the deed is done so I put it in a pot below with some dishsoap and a little vinegar to hopefully rinse out the grey color, stains, dirt, blood and such and bring it back toward a more acid ph, neutralize the lime. The vinegar is a tip I got at Braintan.com as well as several other sources for bark tan. It makes perfect sense to me as the vinegar will neutralize the lime. From what I understand trhis step isn't needed for bucking with lye or wood ash, but is suggested for limed hides, which is what I have.

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As you can see the water was quite cloudy still which leads me to believe the 6 days in the creek didn't do much to remove the lime, maybe it did, I don't know. I rinsed it 4 times until the water was fairly clear and scrubbed it with my hands in the soap to try and remove some of the stains and discoloration. My efforts did very little, but at least I got the dirt and leaves from the creek washed off it. LOL! I then let it soak in the pot of cold water for about 6 hours with about a 1/4 cup of vinegar to hopefully neutralize some of the lime which I was most certain it was still loaded with. 

Side note:

I'm thinking at this point the lime I used was a bad idea and next time I'll use wood ash or straight up lye instead. I'm pretty sure the majority of the discoloration is from the lime, or inert ingredients within the lime, maybe not??? It took on a grey outside color and tan inside color after placing it in the lime. It seems that most of the blood has been washed out of the hide at this point except for the area immediately surrounding the bullet hole.

So, after soaking and rinsing I placed it in the 4th pouring which I diluted about 50/50 with cold tap water. As you can see below the 4th pour, even after diluting, has darkened up considerably since I showed it in the previous posts above. It has been leaching out tannins from the bark for 5-6 days.

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You can see 1 to 2" down into the diluted liquor. I put it in yesterday and stirred it frequently for the first couple hours and three or four times today as well. The skin is taking on the brown coloration of the tannins and the liqour has lightened up noticably since I took the pic above. You can now see easily 2" down into it.

Unless you see something that throws a red flag YCC, I'm adding the third pouring full strength tomorrow as it's starting to look weak already, much lighter than pictured above.

My big question now is if the lime wasn't rinsed out thouroughly what will happen? and how do I tell if it needs more membraning?

Since the hide wasn't anywhere near white I feel it's going to be hard to tell if the tannins are soaking in evenly across the entire skin.

BTW, the orange streak I mentioned above turned pitch black when it hit the tannins. It must have been rust from something in the creek that wasn't visible to me?? Personally, I'm not worried about the staining, but want to be sure the skin is taking in the tannins properly.

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## your_comforting_company

I don't see any red flags and if you've noticed a change in the color of the liquor I'd say go ahead and step it up. It must be opened up really well and taking the tan.

Add about a half a gallon of your third pouring and see how that looks. Any time you think you might need it a little stronger than that, you can further condense any of your pourings. Like I said, none of this stuff is an exact science and it really just requires monitoring and going on what feels right.

That I know of, there is not much danger in leaving a small amount of lime in for bark tanning. I'm of the opinion that for braintanning the vinegar step can be used to neutralize the lime, but not so much to "acidify" the hide. Brains are slightly acidic, being amino acids, and acids are much less attracted to other acids than they are alkalis. That's my logic anyway..

I hate the hide got all stained and dirty like that. I don't normally have that problem since I use tapwater. I do wash mine with dawn or dove when they have stubborn spots, so don't worry about the soap.

The picture of the fourth pouring above looks good. If it's much weaker than that add some, and try to keep it about the same consistency throughout, getting a little bit stronger (darker) each time.

now it's just a waiting game. I've had one take 45 days, and I've had one take 60 days. There's no way to know how long it will take. Once a week I'd check the neck. make a small cut into the hide at the neck and look for color to go all the way to the center. You're at least a few weeks from needing that tho. I'll do my first neck check on monday which will be day 14 on the black walnut cow. That'll give you a good idea what to look for.

Man, you've really taken this thing and run with it! I'm super excited for you brother. I know that as well as you've done so far with it, that this is going to turn out great. It's amazing how with just a little background info, you just kinda "know" what to do.

I'd bet that that slow creek would have tanned it, especially if the creek has lots of leaves and "brackish" water. Leaves from many trees have lots of tannins in them too. Particularly sumac trees.

Time to hit the woods, so I'll check back later tonight. Keep up the good work!

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## rwc1969

LOL! the creek was tanning it. Wherever a leaf bit settled on it there would be a tannin stain. And when it got drug up on the log by whatever critter there was a stain as well.

This got me thinking. Many of the swamps around here are in amongst hardwood forests and the water is usally red with tannins. Hmm? Premade bark liquor or would it just rot?

Also got me wondering if fresh fallen dried oak leaves from the forest floor could be used the same way sumac leaves are??

Just a couple things I've been pondering.

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## NCO

I read the title as "What can I make with Beer"

Huh huh.
Love the way you want to use it all.

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## Rick

NCO, do you know if reindeer are utilized in the same way white tailed deer are here? I was just wondering if utilization of the animal is still prevalent in Finland or if it's just a few craftsmen left doing it like here.

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## NCO

Rick, could you be a bit more specific/simple with your question. I'm still a little bit behind a language barrier here... utilized in what way?

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## flandersander

I appologize rick, if I'm wrong, but I believe he's reffering to the fact that most people hack off the meat and toss the bones and skin of the deer.

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## NCO

Thank you for clarification flandersander!

Of reindeer, I'm not 100% certain. It is mainly the Sami people, (Wiki: Sami people) who herd reindeer. They mainly sell the meat for food industry and restaurants. Most also use few of the animals for their own food and clothing, for tents and so on. At least for those who live in the traditional way they use pretty much all of the animal. Of course, tourists like little trinkets made from reindeer bones...
About Finns, hunters generally take the meat, skin and antlers off a moose or a white tail. Some might use other bones as well for them selves, but usually the bones and some other "left overs" are given to their hunting dogs and in some cases just buried.

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## your_comforting_company

> LOL! the creek was tanning it. Wherever a leaf bit settled on it there would be a tannin stain. And when it got drug up on the log by whatever critter there was a stain as well.
> 
> This got me thinking. Many of the swamps around here are in amongst hardwood forests and the water is usally red with tannins. Hmm? Premade bark liquor or would it just rot?
> 
> Also got me wondering if fresh fallen dried oak leaves from the forest floor could be used the same way sumac leaves are??
> 
> Just a couple things I've been pondering.


I've been pondering that ever since I started tanning LOL. Perhaps I'll sacrifice a skin to some brackish swamp and see what happens. It _should_ tan it theoretically, but I haven't tried it. Sumac leaves are usually used in spring when they are still green, but as long as the tannins haven't been leached out by rain it's definately a possibility.

I read a thread on some forum somewhere in all my searching and it looked like the lady used dried leaves and didn't boil anything. just dry leaves, water and dunk the hide. If it started looking weak, add more leaves. Dunno where that was, it's been a while. Acorns should also work. break them open, mash the meat, boil it, and save the water, instead of pouring it out. :Thumbs Up:

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## Rick

Thanks, FS. That's what I was asking. Thanks for the answer NCO.

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## rwc1969

If it preserves bog people for hundreds or thousands of years it ought to preserve a hide.

I noticed a couple light spots on the skin today, grain side, so I scraped with my fingernail and removed a little of the pigment layer that was left. There are a couple larger light spots and it may be because there's some mebrane left, hard to tell really.

But, I looked at the liquor just now and it appears as though it's still a bit dark so 
I'll hold off adding more liquor. The skin is darkening up nice though and although kind of uneven and blotchy in spots is starting to look pretty good IMO. It no longer has that grey look.

If the weather was warmer or I had a place to buck and de-hair this other skin I'd bark tan it as well. But, I'll hold off I suppose and try the brain tan come spring.

I went out to hunt today and as soon as I got out of the car I saw a big doe laying smack on the trail, roadkill I think, but it was beat up pretty good skinwise and I had no way of telling how long it had been sitting there or I'd have tried to get some meat off it. It was frozen solid and covered with fresh snow.

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## randyt

> I've been pondering that ever since I started tanning LOL. Perhaps I'll sacrifice a skin to some brackish swamp and see what happens. It _should_ tan it theoretically, but I haven't tried it. Sumac leaves are usually used in spring when they are still green, but as long as the tannins haven't been leached out by rain it's definately a possibility.
> 
> I read a thread on some forum somewhere in all my searching and it looked like the lady used dried leaves and didn't boil anything. just dry leaves, water and dunk the hide. If it started looking weak, add more leaves. Dunno where that was, it's been a while. Acorns should also work. break them open, mash the meat, boil it, and save the water, instead of pouring it out.



Up in the upper peninsula of michigan there is a big falls. The falls are called tequamanon falls. any who the river is fed by swamps and due to this the water is about the colour of tea water. I've often wondered how concentrated the tannins are. I know, I know, I have such important things to wonder about, why am wondering about that? LOL

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## rwc1969

LOL, I was thinking about those falls as I wrote about the swamp tannins. Now that would be a good "creek" for rinsing a hide in.

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## your_comforting_company

Just don't let it get too weak for too long, and especially don't let it get too hot. I'm sure the skin will be fine. You've done great with it so far, and now it's just a waiting game. The way you picked up on the other details by doing, I'm sure you've figured out what you need to do here too.
When you get a chance, lets see a pic of the progress. It's been a few days now, right?

On a side note, my cow hides are as black as the space between the stars, and the liquor, though it's still very dark, is very thin on my fingers, so it's about time to step it up again. I started to get a bit of mold on top already so it's fermenting nicely. This black walnut might tan faster than bark. I'll do a neck check monday and post pics so you can see what to look for.
This pic is from the neck check on the last deer hide in laurel oak. Maybe it's good enough to see what progress looks like:
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It's not that great LOL.. Maybe it'll give you some idea tho, I'll get better pics on day 15 (monday) of the walnut.

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## rwc1969

Ok, here's some more pics.

This is the depleted 4th pouring of liquor. I can see clear to the bottom of the cooler, 3-4".

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Below is the liquor after adding 1/2 of the 3rd pouring to re-strengthen it, nice and dark once again. I can only see 1" or so down before visibility is lost.

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Here are a couple pics of the hide as of today. You can see it has light spots and black spots. The light spots are possibly where I missed removing some membrane or pigment. I simply used my thumbnail to scrape what little bit of pigment was left off the hair side after the first couple days and continued the soak.

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This pic shows the black streaks that I believe were caused by the blood and mostly by the rust that was in the creek which left orange stains on the skin.

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From what I understand this does nothing to the usable qualities of the leather, but gives it a more rustic look. The leather can be dyed to hide these imperfections or they can be left in for added character, lol. I'll most likely leave them in.

I suppose now it's just a waiting game of stirring the skin and adding ever increasing strengths of liquor. If the light spots persist I will re-membrane the flesh side in those areas, but I dodn't see any noticable membrane left at this point. ??

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## rwc1969

Looking forward to the updates and pics ycc.

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## crashdive123

I like the uneven coloring.  As you say, it adds character.

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## klkak

Has anyone suggested making dinner out of the deer?

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## rwc1969

That's the best part Kevin

Deer #1 all packed up 

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Heart and inner loins in butter and onions

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Liver, lightly breaded

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I've ate 2 livers, 2 kidneys, 1 heart, 4 inner loins, 1/2 a backstrap, 2 pounds of burger, a roast and I think that's it in the last 3 weeks.

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## your_comforting_company

YUM!  :Drool: 

I like the marbling of the hide myself, and personally, I'd leave them in. I don't think you missed enough membrane to affect the coloring and it's more likely where it picked up some minerals in the creek. Looks like the hide is going great so far, and supper looks delicious!

Props for using as much of the animal as you could, too!!

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## rwc1969

Thanks, I just need to get around to peeling the remaining meat off the bones so I can make something outta them.

Is there any special way to tell if the membrane or epidermis hasn't been removed completely after it's been in the liquor?

On a side note:

I'm considering trying a bark tan of sorts on the flesh side only of the hockskins I kept, I have eight of them now, and the ears. But, I'm thinking if I put them straight in the bark liquor the hair might slip?? I'm not worried if the hair discolors either. I'm considering just placing wet bark chunks on the skin directly and seeing if it tans with just a dry scrape fleshing and membraning or dunking them and seeing if they'll tan and if the hair slips. I have plenty of liquor and bark to go around for a couple projects. 

Back to the skin tanning

I did post two vids for the rinsing and first part of the tanning that I described above if anyone's interested. The vids are kinda low quality and nothing too exciting, but a different format for those who might prefer vids.

Rinsing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HgKH8tnITQ

Tanning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RWPpMTTZn8

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## your_comforting_company

The hair shouldn't slip on the hocks. Bark liquor will tighten the skin, setting the hair rather than making it fall out. Do an extra good fleshing job. there are a lot of tendons on that part. I have brain tanned a few, just messing around. I have a lot of stuff I need to sew up! I've even tried tanning ears and a scrotum (Don't ask), but both got stiff.
If you aren't worried about staining the fur, I say just submerge them with the skin and let them tan. I'll get pics of the black walnut cow today as soon as there is enough light.

Looking at the rinsing video, you did a very good job on removing the membrane.

Nice work, and great vids RWC!

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## crashdive123

> The hair shouldn't slip on the hocks. Bark liquor will tighten the skin, setting the hair rather than making it fall out. Do an extra good fleshing job. there are a lot of tendons on that part. I have brain tanned a few, just messing around. I have a lot of stuff I need to sew up! I've even tried tanning ears and a scrotum (Don't ask), but *both got stiff*.
> If you aren't worried about staining the fur, I say just submerge them with the skin and let them tan. I'll get pics of the black walnut cow today as soon as there is enough light.
> 
> Looking at the rinsing video, you did a very good job on removing the membrane.
> 
> Nice work, and great vids RWC!


Not gonna say it - I figured I read it wrong because of the pain meds.

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## rwc1969

Well the hide has been soaking for a week now and the light spots are darkening up nicely now. I found a bit more pigment/ epidermis on the grain side and scraped that off with my thumbnail.

YCC, at what point do you sew the holes up?

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## your_comforting_company

Anytime. It can be done before the tan, during, or after. sometime during the tan will be better for keeping it flatter. gives it a little time to tighten before sewing, and then as it continues to tighten, it will help it lay.
If sewing with sinew, a little lazy stitch will hold, but if using sewing thread you better double or triple each stitch. Cotton thread is laughably weak compared to sinew.
With a minimal amount of practice, you can make holes virtually disappear. The trick here is in using the staker to stretch the skin.. Be careful around those holes when softening or you could have an incident like this!
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I didn't sew this hole up and when softening I made it a little (ehem.. a lot) bigger. OOPS!

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## your_comforting_company

This reminded me to put the same info in the braintan thread. Thanks RWC!

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## rwc1969

Cool, thanks. Looks like i have plenty of time to decide when to stitch then.

The hide is darkening up nicely, even in the spots where I removed more pigment from the grain side.

Yesterday I put the fleshed and scraped hockskins into a 50/50 mix of the third pour and water. Prior to adding the hockskins I stirred up what remained of the third pour and it turned a milky red color. Before it looked like black coffee, now it looks like red tea with milk in it. Is it normal?? It doesn't smell funky.

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## your_comforting_company

If I ever get around to doing the neck check, I'll take a picture of my old liquor. it's rather milky too, and I think it's part of the fermenting process. As long as it doesn't smell rotten it's good to go.
I think it's like the stuff you filter out when making wine. It might be a bit more pungent now that it's had time to sit, but not rancid. If you think it's okay, I'm sure it is. You've picked up on this really well. I'm sure your judgment is fine.

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## Rick

Oh, snap. Brain tanning gnarlies and wine dregs. I'll be off food for a week.

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## your_comforting_company

No, that's not a hide in there.. It's the mold that grows on top. This liquor is about 2 years old, +/- a month.
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The stick is about 4" deep and you can only see about 2" of it.
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See how milky it looks? It's natural.
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## your_comforting_company

This is the check I just did. It lacks about 1/8" in the very center to be struck through, notice it's dark on the outside of the cross section, but only slightly mis-colored in the center. While it has taken _some_ color, I wan't to be extra sure so I'm leaving it for at least another 2 weeks.
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My liquor is getting pretty weak and runny now too, so I'll pour a little more over in there tonight.

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## rwc1969

That's pretty much how my liqour looks minus the big growth. LOL! That cow hide's gonna be something when it's done.

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## rwc1969

well today I added the first of three jugs of my scond pouring to the cooler. The liquor has been looking a tad weak for two days now, can see down over an inch or two, so I figured it was time. The cooler is over half full now, which means about 6 gallons I suppose. I think before adding the next two gallons of second pour I'll drain off half the diluted stuff so it increases the strength a bit more??

There's plenty of room in the cooler, but I'm thinking it will be hard to get the strength up with all that spent liquor in there.

Not much change in the skin, seems to have a slightly different feel and looks only a tad bit darker than before.

The second pouring I added today had a multi-color array of mold growing on it, pink, green, black. I dipped out the mold and pitched it. Also, I'm now wearing the nitrile gloves when stirring and adjusting the hide in the liquor. It still smells like bark, but I'm just not too keen on sticking my hands in there after it's been soaking so long and after seeing that mold. I always seem to have a hangnail or small cut on my hands and don't want to take any chances.

If I rub the deer skin the darkness of the tannins seems to rub off somewhat, not asure if that's normal, grain side only. The flesh side is much lighter than the grain side btw, but is slowly darkening.

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## your_comforting_company

Yep. Pour out about half of your current bath, but save it. It'll be a good start-out liquor for the next skin. I keep two buckets of bathwater, one is weak for starting hides, and the other is super strong with big chunks ofbark in it. Once the bulk tannins are out of the first bath, it seems to tan the next skin more quickly, making the second big bath (really strong) take up more quickly, too. 

If you have cuts on your hands I strongly recommend wearing the gloves. The bark liquor is antimicrobial, but it will leave a terrible scent on your hands, and after the thumb incident, I just ain't taking no chances.
My black walnut liquor is getting that pungent fermented smell as of yesterday. Had to change clothes when it splashed up on me. (I dropped the skin as I was stirring) and the wife said I wasn't going nowhere with her smelling like that!
Glad I was wearing my work britches!

I agree, it's time to make a new bath for it. It will likely start taking more color again, or it could be as colored as it's gonna get and now you just wait for the strike-through.

None of this stuff is really exact. Gotta go with your gut, and so far, your gut has been right. Do that thang!

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## Rick

Look at this way. If you go in Wal-Mart wearing those drawers you'll clear out any section where you want to buy and you'll get the best selection! Great for sale day!

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## rwc1969

Well, in three days it has taken on a bit more color, although there are small areas on the grain side where it appears to not be taking color. I see nothing but grain in those spots, so I'm unsure why so light.

I could already see more than inch down into the liquor today so I removed about 2+ gallons of the old liquor and added the remaining two gallons of second pouring. I poured the stuff I removed in with the hockskins Im doing.

Interestingly, the smaller of two hockskins has sunk while the other larger rear leg is still floating somewhat. The flesh side of them has taken on a distinct red color, I've seen no change in the color of the hair yet. As thin as they are it's likely they are struck thru, paper thin almost.

When the skin liquor lightens again i will check for strike through.

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## your_comforting_company

You're getting real close. Remember there's still the first pouring which will be your strongest and it should finish coloring the hide. It's very much possible that some of the minerals from the creek are slowing the coloring, or perhaps reacting with the tannic acid differently. Just have to take it all in stride and let it be what it is. Even the black walnut cow I'm doing has a bit of marbling. I will do a neck check on it today if I get back from hunting at any decent hour... might even do a little vid  :Wink: 

I would imagine that when you check the striking on the hocks, you'll find they move just about as slowly as a thick part of the skin because the fibers are so close together and tightly woven on the legs.
Winter deer skins seem to float more than summer skins because of the hollow hairs deer grow for their winter coat. The dead air space inside the hair acts like our winter jackets, creating space for warmth. 
Glad to know the liquor isn't staining the hair.. I have 4 large hocks from an 8 point my dad killed last weekend and I'm thinking hard about putting them in my red oak tan to make him a small hunting bag. Not sure if I want to wait till sumac season or not.. It is a much lighter brown tan, almost greenish

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## rwc1969

After hearing about the sumac, I'd like to try it too. Yet another use for a multi-use plant.

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## crimescene450

IF you wanted to bark tan a fur, do you still soak the whole thing in bark liquor? fur and all?  or is there a different method?

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## your_comforting_company

Bark tan furs are typically done with extracts, alum and salt in order to preserve the color of the furs. Our bark tan here has stains in it that will very likely discolor the fur. Quebracho extract is an option. It is a natural product that has been through a manufacturing process, but it won't stain the fur.
One other option that I have not tried yet, (but would like to this coming spring) is using sumac leaves, which make a very light brown.. almost green, and should not stain the fur the way red oak would.
To answer the question: yes and no. If _I_ were to bark tan a fur, I would submerge the whole thing in the bark liquor and not worry about the fur discoloration. If you are worried about the fur color, We might have to explore more options.
I'll try to find some information on different vegetables for tanning, and post some sort of color / stain table.

I believe RWC said he has some hockskins in his bark liquor. We'll see how badly it stains the fur on those. 
I typically brain tan furs so they'll be softish and not so stiff. Might be worth trying on a little squirrel skin tho..

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## crimescene450

> Bark tan furs are typically done with extracts, alum and salt in order to preserve the color of the furs. Our bark tan here has stains in it that will very likely discolor the fur. Quebracho extract is an option. It is a natural product that has been through a manufacturing process, but it won't stain the fur.
> One other option that I have not tried yet, (but would like to this coming spring) is using sumac leaves, which make a very light brown.. almost green, and should not stain the fur the way red oak would.
> To answer the question: yes and no. If _I_ were to bark tan a fur, I would submerge the whole thing in the bark liquor and not worry about the fur discoloration. If you are worried about the fur color, We might have to explore more options.
> I'll try to find some information on different vegetables for tanning, and post some sort of color / stain table.
> 
> I believe RWC said he has some hockskins in his bark liquor. We'll see how badly it stains the fur on those. 
> I typically brain tan furs so they'll be softish and not so stiff. Might be worth trying on a little squirrel skin tho..



im not really worried about fur color that much.  I was thinking of trying this with a squirrel, just to learn the process.  and i read somewhere that squirrel skin is too thin to remove the hair.  like if you removed the hair, the hide would just rip when graining(?).

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## rwc1969

My hockskins are coming along nicely, in fact I think they've struck through. It's hard to tell as they are so thin you can't really see an inner part of the skin, it's paper thin almost.

But, the hair hasn't disolored much if at all.

I'm going to be testing for strikethrough on my deer skin in a day or two and will post pics and/ or vids of all.

Currying the hockskins will be a test as they are so thin it doesn't take much to tear them at all, you can tear them like a sheet of thick construction paper.

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## your_comforting_company

I have not tried to remove the hair and grain from squirrels. I have heard the same thing about graining them, CS. Might be time for me (us) to do some more experimenting  :Wink: 

@RWC, Thanks for the update. Glad to hear you're not getting any bad staining. I might have a go at it myself! It's not like if I mess it up I've lost anything lol. Can't wait to see the pics!

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## crimescene450

im just gonna try bark tanning with the fur on first, that way i have at least a bit of a clue what im doing.  maybe experiments wil come later. lol

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## rwc1969

Day 26 of the bark tan:

I checked for strike through and added the first gallon of my 1st pouring, doesn't seem to be even close.

This was the first pic, but the wetness and camera flash makes it appear more white than it actually is.

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This was the second pic, which still used a flash and made it appear more white than it really was, but you can see where it is starting to strike through.

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This pic is lower quality, no flash, but shows the strike through progress better.

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This final pic is after it was let dry just slightly and using natural light from the window.

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I don't know if these pics help or not, but, the lower edge is the grain side and the upper edge is the flesh side. This sample was taken from the thickest part of the neck which is about 1/8" thick.

I expected it to be struck through further given the amount of tannins it has already absorbed. I only have 1/2 gallon of liquor left which is first pour. I suppose once that's put in the mix I'll be left with adding straight bark to the mix in order to replenish the tannins.

Not really sure what to think at this point.

YCC?  :Smile:

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## your_comforting_company

I think it's going great. You might have to put some straight bark in there to finish up. Looks like it's pretty close to the center to me, but like you said, it's hard to tell in a pic. The middle pic, in the dark looks like it might have a little farther to go, but not much!
Go ahead and add that last 1/2 gallon, give it a few days, then stick a few chunks of bark in there to finish it off.

Keep in mind I really expected it to take more like 60+ days given the cold up there. If you need to make more liquor, dilute it less, or cook it down, but be careful not to go buck wild and get it too strong.
One of my deerskins took 60 days, so if you're at day 26, just keep it going.. it'll get there!

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## rwc1969

Is it possible at this stage to go too strong considering it's been in there over a month now?

I added the final pouring of liquor today, about 1/2 gallon of first pour. The liquor hasn't appeared to get weaker, but it is hard to tell now as it too has taken on the milky tea look. Also, it seems to be more noticable to the nose now. It doesn't smell rotten, but is defintely becoming somewhat unpleasant to smell. 

As far as the hockskins go, the liquor hasn't appeared to weaken at all. Might be due to the fact that there's about 3-4 gallons of liquor to two tiny hockskins. The are dark red, but the hair is still unchanged. Can't remeber if I mentioned it, but they no longer float. As thin as they are i'm surprised they haven't struck through, but I think the hair is holding them back.

In another week I may add some fresh bark chips to both and check once more for strike through. I'm growing impatient and want to make a sheath for my double bit axe and perhaps a powder flask.

I do have one question on this, if I want to make a flask or something else by wet forming do I still need to curry and finish the skin? Or, can I just pull it out wet, cut to shape and form it?

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## your_comforting_company

I suppose it's possible to get too strong, but at this point, I would say it's highly unlikely. There should be enough inside for it to tan on out.

As long as it doesn't smell rotten, it's okay. My old bark liquor smells pretty funky, but not rotten. If that last 1/2 gallon doesn't do it, you can add bark chips to the liquor or boil a new batch and condense it stronger. Keep in mind it's a balance.. so the more tanned it gets, the darker the liquor has to stay.. I hope that makes sense lol.

I'm really surprised the hock hair isn't stained. This is great news!
At day 36 I would expect it to take 9 more days at least. If you can drop those chips on it, it should be done by then. It looked pretty close on that last neck check.

I would probably curry the finished hide and form it while it is wet from the curry, then after it's formed, oil the outside with a heavy grease. You can take it straight out of the rinse and form it, and only oil the outside if you wish. It is effectively tanned and oiling is really only to make it pliable, which you don't want too much of. The curry will help the skin take the oil from the outside (grain side) more easily. It's really up to you on that one. I believe H63 posted a thread around here somewhere about wet-forming.

I know you're eager to see and use it, but give it a few more days and a dose of chips and see what happens.

Both my Live Oak and oak/walnut tans froze last night... OOPS!

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## rwc1969

Ya, if i'd have had this outside it would freeze solid overnight. We've pretty much been below freezing since December 1st and have had constant snow cover with only a 2 day thaw and rain in between. We're approaching a foot of snow now. I just hope the liquor don't start reeking too bad or Mom will make me move it out and then I'll be screwed.

The house got steamed up pretty bad making last seasons maple and boiling the last liquor so in order to maintain peace I can't do it in the house NO MORE. It's hard to get a big pot of water boiling in the freezing wind and snow. I think I may just pour hot water on the fresh bark and make a tea that way. In 7 to 10 days it should be good and dark. Other than just dumping bark chips into my existing liquor that's kind of my only option at this point.

I'm intersted to see the hockskins after they're dry. That should let me know if the hair actually took any tannins. Being wet it might not show, but they look real good. I wish I'd had stuck the other 6 in there as well. I think they'd make a nice ML accessory pouch or even a bowdrill pouch.

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## rwc1969

Update:

On 1-15-2011 I went ahead and boiled another 3 gallons of water, then I added it to under 5 pounds of fresh unshredded bark chips to soak, off the heat. This new liquor turned dark almost immediately, and within a few days the liquor was a real dark red, almost black. 

On the 23rd I poured off this new liquor, 2 gallons worth, and added the used bark chips to my existing batches, both the hockskins and the deer skin. The once used bark chips didn't appear to do much to strenthen my existing batches. Also, I checked the skin for strikethrough, when wet it still appeared white in the center, but after it dried for an hour or two it appeared to be fully struck through.

On the 26th I pulled the skin and hockskins from the old used liquors and added them both to the new liquor undiluted. I pitched the old liquors and used bark as I feel they may have been saturated with CaCO3/ calcium carbonate from the bucking process, and they stunk. The liquors didn't stink like rotting flesh, but like very ripe bark. 

Side note:

I read over at braintan.com that it may not be good to save first run liquors that come from deer bucked in lime because the residual lime changes the liquor chemically, IIRC making it less acidic. But, I will save this new liquor for future use as by now the lime has surely worked out of the skins.

I'm going to let them go until this new liquor starts to weaken and check once more for strikethrough, probably in another week to ten days. As of now I'm well over the 45 day mark of tanning and I believe it is likely struck through, but I want to let it go further and absorb as much weight in tannins as possible. Hopefully this new batch of liquor will impart some more red into the skin, right now it's basically brown.

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## your_comforting_company

I've personally not had a problem with limes being left in, and since you rinsed in the creek I doubt if yours had much either, but still good info. I rinse and squeegee a few times before going in. Alkali limes mixed with tannic acid would surely create salts and weaken the liquor.

I'm glad you're being patient with it. For a deer, I'd think 45 days would be plenty, but being so cold up there it might take longer. Just keep doing what you're doing and I'm sure it'll turn out.

How about your bones and other projects? making any progress on those?

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## rwc1969

After putting the skin in the new liquor it seems much tighter and less rubbery/ stretchy. The grain seems more distinct when manipulated. It has a much different feel now. I have to look into getting some neatsfoot oil.

I haven't really had time for other projects and it's taking me time to decide on what to make as I want it to be something I will use and not strictly for show.

But, I took the uncooked bones from the buck and left 'em outside for the birds and cats to pick clean, worked fairly well. The sparrows, finches and such nibbled the bones quite clean in just a few days, the cats won't mess with them because the meat is frozen. I also took the cooked bones and did the same. Once the ice and snow is gone I'll try a few projects with each to see which holds up best, raw or cooked. I'm betting on raw. I had a cooked shoulder blade which I intended to make something with, but it was real brittle, I think it was from the cooking as i've found weathered shoulder blades that were not so brittle.

I have lots of sinew put up for sewing. I used the deer tallow to waterproof my boots, it worked great, but I ended up taking a hair dryer to them when finished to get the tallow to re-melt and really work itself into the seams and such. Added benefit, they are now much warmer too, but don't breath as well so it's a trade off. It makes them much better for ice fishing and slow hiking in cold wet weather.

I did use some of the new bark liquor to put a nice patina on one of my fixed blade knives, being high carbon steel it rusts easily, and I'm hoping the patina will limit that.

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## your_comforting_company

I'd like to see that knife after it's been stained  :Big Grin: 

You're talking about ice and I was outside today stretching a wet skin with no shirt on... and I was sweating!

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## rwc1969

The weather is definitely the biggest determining factor when doing this kind of stuff. Today, we're dipping to the single digits. Tomorrow and the next day we are predicted to have the highest snowfall since 2005, over 12", it could be less, but freezing rain will take it's place, which can be even worse than snow. This, of course, is all based on the weatherman. I'm not sure where he gets his information on record snowfalls because we had 18" just a few years back.

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## rwc1969

Day 58: I don't know if you can see from these pics if it's struck through YCC, but, unless you say otherwise I'm going to sew the holes up, rinse out the excess tannin, squeegee out the excess moisture, curry and finish it this weekend if time permits. 
I have a hard time seeing a distinct color change in the skin, maybe my eyes are going bad. LOL! But, the new liquor has weakened somewhat over the last 9 days, so it is still taking tannins, albeit much slower than before.

I was going back over your bark tan thread and am having a hard time drawing a distinction between currying and finishing. ??

What would you think of using mineral oil or canola oil to curry it? Those are the only two oils I have on hand, except for the tallow which would be difficult for currying. I have a feeling it would be hard to keep it melted enough to absorb into the skin. I could go buy some neatsfoot, but am VERY limited on funds, so if one of these two will suffice I'd much rather go that route.

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Same skin after I blotted off some moisture

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## your_comforting_company

The second pic definately looks darker all the way through, compared to the pictures above from day 26. I'm not sure about what colors that bark will impart, but that might be it. I can definately see the fading as it gets closer to the middle, and the middle looks darkened slightly to me. I'd say go for it!

To make the distinction between currying and finishing: Currying introduces oil into the skin by emulsifying it in water. Oil and water don't normally mix, so a wet hide won't take oil.. it'll just bead up on it and never enter the hide. By emulsifying the oil, it can be absorbed by the damp skin and when the water evaporates, the oil is inside. Make sense?
Finishing is using straight oil to cover or treat the skin, which at that point should be dry enough to absorb oil from the grain side. This process is expedited because there is already some oil in the skin. oil and oil are attracted making a nicer "finish". Also at this point, it is decided whether a texture will be added, whether it will be molded, or slicked, etc. kinda like choosing which lacquer you're going to put on a table, we call that the "finish".
hope that makes sense too haha.

I would think canola oil would make a better curry than mineral oil. Save the mineral oil for a finish, but see if you can mix a drop or two of each to make sure they don't repel one another the way oil and water would. Even if they do, you could still finish with canola too. Depending on what you are going to make, I wouldn't use the tallow unless it needs to be heavy and very water repellent!

If you want a harder, tack leather don't stretch it much, and if it needs to move and breathe, stake it. I can't wait to see the finished piece!! Good work and an excellent display of patience. Two thumbs up!!

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## rwc1969

So, which would be better for the emulsion, regular bar soap or dishsoap? I don't have any of that good ole fashioned homeade lye soap that I been hearing so much about.  :Smile:

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## your_comforting_company

Wtf?? Mods!!!

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## your_comforting_company

RWC, colgate, or fels naptha is preferrable, but if you have some gentle bathsoap like Dove, or Ivory, that'll work just fine. The soap isn't that important as long as it isn't a harsh degreaser, like gojo or lava.

I gotta make some more lye soap and I promise I'll send ya some!

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## crashdive123

> Wtf?? Mods!!!


He was a spammer and has been dispatched to the spam heap.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> He was a spammer and has been dispatched to the spam heap.




HeHeHe the way ALL spammers should be treated!

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## rwc1969

Cool, thanks YCC.

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## rwc1969

Today the skins were finally struck through, 61 days it took, and I began the process of oiling and finishing them.
Here's a few pics of the skins before they went into the oil emulsion for finishing.

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It's been a long time waiting, but perhaps it's finally about to pay off. I just need to get oil into the skins and work them dry, then they will be finished and ready for use.

BTW, I used Ivory soap and canola oil for the emulsion.

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## your_comforting_company

OH WOW!

That is BEAUTIFUL!!

I'm glad you waited brother, that is amazing!! 

I might just throw this coyote in some bark tan and see how it turns out in live oak!

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## rwc1969

I need clarification: you put the skin into several emulsions letting each sit for 24 hours? or just one emulsion for 24 hours? After the first emulsion the oily, soapy water has turned dark orange, still lots of unbound tannins?

here's some vids that show my notes on the bark tan portion, and the rinsing, sleeking and emulsification. 

Bark tan timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMm6i1dpXR4

Rinsing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSGoWF8gB0

Sleeking, slicking, squeegying, or simply "getting out the excess water"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2RVbr7r16k

Emulsion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzZ1A8ibJ5o

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## your_comforting_company

Really excellent notes on that timeline! I wish I had those kind of organizational skills!

While rinsing, you say "I don't think you'll ever get it all clear" and I do believe you are correct, which is why your emulsion turned a little brown. I would say after 8 rinsings, you got the bulk out, and I do several myself, sometimes squeegee-ing (flesh side) in between to help get excess out. Looks to me like you did a fine job. 

A spatula for a squeegie is a great idea too. My wife is getting tired of me confiscating all her stuff tho. blenders, pots and pans.. If I'm out working on a skin and I come in, she always gives me that look... "What do you want _this time?_"
Your "sponge" comment is right on. Too much excess water in the hide will keep anything else from getting in efficiently, so by removing excess water, it will readily soak up your emulsion. The emulsion in water, as I explained before, is because oil and water don't normally mix. The hide is full of water, so oil can't get in.. we squeeze out the excess water, and replace the "excess" with emulsified oil. As the water evaporates, the oils are left behind IN the skin. When you OIL the hide, the oils are attracted to one another, (the ones inside accept the ones coming in from outside), so that you can freely add more oil as desired.
That's a great looking hide!

I tyipcally only prepare one emulsion, but use it several times. I let it sit in the emulsion for about 24 hours each time. Like I say, none of this stuff is an exact science as far as "doing" it.. as long as you accomplish the end goal, you can do it once, or ten times. At this point it's tanned and won't spoil, so you can soak it longer if you like, or you can do several dunkings and dryings in a day, provided you have time and a place to let it dry a little bit in between. Your emulsion looks good and milky. Very good!
If the oil and water separate, add a little more soap and stir again (soap loses it's soapiness after a while). If you don't like how it feels, dunk it in your curry again, and repeat till you get the feel you like.. since this is your first, it might be hard to decide, but you've done so well with it all up to this point, I don't know that you really need my advice here!! It'll feel limber but not so "rubbery" and I don't like mine to feel heavy and oily.. you'll know what you like. For shoe soles, or whatever, you'll want it heavier, and for bags or whatever, lighter hide, with thicker oil on the grain side (but that's later).

Looks to me like you have done everything just right. That's a beautiful skin and I can't wait to see what you make from it!
Great job man. Give yourself a pat on the back!

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## rwc1969

Well I guess I better get to it then. Thanks for the compliments ycc, and for all the help up to this point.

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## rwc1969

BTW, I usually only take notes like that the first time around on things, after that my org. skills drop off exponentionally. LOL! It does help as a reference for the future though. Down the road, if I find things different, I'll note that as well, but leave out all the other details. The note taking started with mushrooms, and school, and has expanded to other things from there.

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## your_comforting_company

Have you decided what finish you'll go for?
staked will loosen it a little as it dries, or you can mold it or texture it or roll it, or...

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## rwc1969

I'm planning a sheath for my axe, and a possibles bag or/ M/L accesory bag, I'm not sure. I want tough and shiny smooth for the sheath, but a bit loose and a nice grain pattern would look good on the bag.

Being new to it, I think I'll just finish it out working it dry and where it ends up it ends up. Probably somewhere between soft and stiff with a rough pattern in the grain.

BTW, I finished the hockskins: 

They were full of oil from the hair, I squeegeed/ slicked the peas out of em and then worked em dry overnight. I didn't have to add any oil as the excess in the hair was enough. I just kept working the hair over onto the flesh side to remove excess oil from the hair and at the same time add oil to the skin.

Working the area around the dewclaws was the most trying, and after 12 hours they still feel cool to the touch which makes me think there's some moisture in there yet. The humidity in the house is upwards of 70% and I think that and the hair keeping em from drying completely. But, every time I pick them back up to work my hands get real soft and supple, so I don't think they'll set up hard now. Even the thin frayed bits on the edges that I couldn't work very well are completely dry and fairly soft. Only the thicker skin in between and below the dewclaws is slightly stiff. That area retained the most water and was hardest to work. This is a good pre run test for the skin though, I think it will dry quicker having no hair on it.

Some notes on color change of hair:

I'll have to compare some before and after pics of the hockskins to see how much the tannins chaged the hair, but it appears to have taken it from a grey fall deer to a summer red. The hair did take some color, but it looks natural on the deer. White areas are now off white/ tan. Brown areas are now a bit redder. I wish I'd a done all 8 hockskins now, I like the results. I would expect some color change though, especially in the lighter areas, a white rabbit would probably come out off white, yellow, tan, maybe even orange or red depending on the strength and color of liquor. A cottontail would probably come out close to the way it went in with some added red, orange, and yellow highlights. Deer hair probably is more moisture resistant than coyote, rabbit, fox, etc. as it's hollow and is not technically fur. So, I'd expect more color change on fur bearers, just a guess.

 I'm having a hard time right now finding a good stretch for oiling and finishing. We had two snow days last week, and this week is makeup for it, and prep for tests that are coming up. I may have to slick the skin and slowly work it dry over the course of a few days if possible, working it a bit each day.

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## your_comforting_company

any time you want to take a break from stretching it, just bag it and set it somewhere cool. No problem at this point.

*I'd recommend using the neck for the sheath. cut it off now and mold it so it'll retain some shape, and oil the heck out of it so it doesn't rust your axe. Don't want that one too soft!

the coloring on the hocks makes me second think doing the yote that way. I dunno, might do it anyway lol.
Good luck on the tests. Let them skins alone and get back on the books, or work em while you study, but school is more important!!

Thanks for recording this process in real-time. I think this has been a great thread! Good job!

Now you gotta come up with something to do with all them bones!

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## rwc1969

Here's a pic to compare color change rawhide vs. bark tan. Rawhide on left. There's a few more pics on my photobucket site as well.

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But, like I said before, I'm betting fur would take up more tannins than hair though, not sure.

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## your_comforting_company

I really can't tell any difference.. Ok.. yote is going in bark tan. We'll find out if it does or not  :Wink:

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## rwc1969

Those pics are fairly accurate too colorwise. BTW, I saw the pic of your Granny/ Grandma holding up your cow hide, my mom couldn't keep her hands off the hockskins once finished, and that is a surprise to me as she is not into dead things whatsoever, but, it does show just how they change through the process. She's been rattling off all kinds of ideas for using them too. Pretty cool!

I busted out all my programs and such for school, well most of 'em, and am ready to go. Burning the midnight canola oil, lol. Working the skin dry as we speak. Actually, I'm letting it hang over the shower curtain for a half hour or so to let some of the excess moisture evaporate, humidity is still hovering just under 70%,  :Frown: . It's looking good, not as oily as the hockskins, but there's oil in there and sleeking it with the metal spatula worked real good. 

I decided to work the whole thing dry, want to see the finished skin as a whole. I'm gonna use my small cutting board as a "mild" staker, it's rounded off well; just gonna sit back, wedge it between the cushions in the couch, lay out some shop rags to protect the furniture, watch the tube and work 'er dry... city style. :0 

I'm re-thinking the axe sheath due to rust issues. I was teetering on it before because of that, and since you had to go and mention it, it might be a bad omen. I never liked leather for sheaths for that very reason, love leather, hate rust.

A couple words of warning: if anyone plans on doing this like me in the house and bathtub... unlikely, just make sure you don't let the emulsified oil go down the drain, and make sure you don't drip tannins anywhere. It does a pretty good job of staining stuff, and I'm sure that oil would plug up your drain. Make sure you have plenty of old shop towels or the like to slop up the oil and tannins.

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## your_comforting_company

> I'm re-thinking the axe sheath due to rust issues. I was teetering on it before because of that, and since you had to go and mention it, it might be a bad omen. I never liked leather for sheaths for that very reason, love leather, hate rust.
> 
> A couple words of warning: if anyone plans on doing this like me in the house and bathtub... unlikely, just make sure you don't let the emulsified oil go down the drain, and make sure you don't drip tannins anywhere. It does a pretty good job of staining stuff, and I'm sure that oil would plug up your drain. Make sure you have plenty of old shop towels or the like to slop up the oil and tannins.


A heavy oiling after you cut your pattern will help keep rust away, but you have to oil the leather often. Don't let me talk you out of anything you want to do! Do it and experiment and learn. Experience is the best teacher, and you can't get that by reading anything I or anyone else puts up on the 'net. I might be learning things from you pretty soon  :Wink: 

And some very good points. I try to do it out in the shop for that very reason. Mrs ycc doesn't like me staining her towels. (and I'm the one who has to fix clogged pipes!!) Gotta love the "chop shop"!

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## rwc1969

Here's the hockdkin finishing vid, it's a long one, but to see the finished product just skip to the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUBdxMrylNI

The skin is taking some time to work dry. The thin areas, legs and belly, are drying out quick, but the bulk of it is much thicker and very slow to dry. I think I've spent about 4 hours on and off. The legs and some parts of the belly are very thin, probably thinner than a standard piece of printer paper, but the bulk is upwards of an 1/8" thick or so. But, it definitely has the look and feel of leather now and most of those initial stains from the blood and creek are gone.

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## rwc1969

Done!

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## Rick

Oh, man! You should be rightfully proud of those. I know it was a lot of work but I think you did an outstanding job. I had to give you some rep for that. You worked too hard not to get rep.

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## your_comforting_company

Awesome job! Those look Fantastic!! Beautifully marbled and rich in color. Really outstanding my friend!

The oiled one, is that _just_ canola oil? That's a really nice red. Love it!!

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## crashdive123

Outstanding!  I know that you put a lot of work intothat, and you shoudl be darn proud of the way it turned out.  Way to stick to it, and kudos you you YCC for the tutorial and help along the way.  I can't give either of you rep right now, but know that it is well deserved.

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## rwc1969

> ...The oiled one, is that _just_ canola oil? That's a really nice red. Love it!!


yep, canola oil. I wasn't quite sure when to stop oiling. I didn't want it loaded down, but didn't want it to dry and crack either. Now that the oil has had a chance to distribute, the red flesh side is much redder and more even in color. The grain side is a nice dark brown, it was red too until I added more oil at the very end which darkened it up. The more I worked and stretched it the lighter and redder it got, but as I added oil it would darken back up.

With the finishing the only hard part for me was the thin edges drying quicker than the the thicker neck and back. I ended up stretching them out a bit in my efforts to keep them from hardening up. that's why it has a ruffled look, the edges are stretched more than the center. 

I would like to know the best way to store it until I can get around to making something.

Once again, thanks for all the help.

I will say this:

De-hairing was hard work and took a good 7 hours or more total. I'm lending that to the below 50 temps during bucking and possibly a bad choice in bucking agent.

Working it dry was almost just as much work and time, but was easier because I was able to break it up over a three day period. next time I think I'll stretch it on a rack to work dry, working it in hand was a bit difficult for my worn out hands and joints. 

Those two chores combined were 12-16 hours. Everything else was a cakewalk, well removing, shredding, and boiling the bark was a bit of a chore, but not too bad, just time consuming. I'm pretty sure the times would be cut in half or at least by 1/3 next time around.

Having said that, I'll definitely be doing it again, mother nature, health and time permitting. It's well worth the effort, and it feels so good in the hand.

I'm pretty sure you, ycc, already said it in other words, but there truly is something magical and intriguing about seeing and feeling the skin transform before your senses; smell, touch and sight all play a role. You really do get a feel for it throughout the entire process.

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## your_comforting_company

I've just read back over this whole thread while finishing up hand-softening a buckskin. This is really great. Can we make it a sticky?

RWC. It's tanned. Store it anywhere, and anyhow you like to. If you bury it in the dirt, it will eventually return to the earth, but at this point it is forever preserved and usable (till you wear it out). Since it's oiled it won't get "wet". You'll have to reoil as time goes on, but that's because the deer isn't producing it's own oil anymore. When our skin dries out we add lotions, and it's really the same principle, but as far as storing, as long as you don't bury it, it's good to go. Might not want to put it in a place that will wick your oil back out. Hang it on the wall like a picture and admire it till you get ready to cut it.. *That's the hardest part.. the first cut*!

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## rwc1969

That's funny, all that work and I'm actually afraid to cut into it. BTW, I didn't even sew up the holes, they're all on the fringe. I was thinking of cutting the ruffled fringe off and making some little pouches. I'd like to do something with the fringe first as it looks the worst and is thin. So, that should give me a good opportunity to get the feel of stitching it up and stuff.

I need some ideas of things to make as I'm kind of drawing a blank now that it's finished.

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## your_comforting_company

Cut a big circle (or small one) cut a few slits around the perimeter, and run another leather strap through each, so that it'll bunch up into a little "possibles" pouch, but it'll also open and lay flat.
Small bullet pouch.
Use strips about 1/4" to do some turks-head handle wraps.
try a piece on your bowdrill
broadhead covers.
finger guard for plucking arrows.
pocketknife pouch.
make a neat bellows for blowing fire
holster for flashlight.
Your imagination is your only limit at this point.

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## your_comforting_company

did you see this?
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leg bone, split in half and rubbed sharp on a rock, sheathed in some bark-tan. Might be a good time to try that no-sew sheath I saw posted a little while back?

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## rwc1969

Nice! no sew sheath?

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## your_comforting_company

I thought WW posted it, but it was NotSoOldCrone

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...n-s-Sgian-Dubh

Looks really cool.

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## rwc1969

That's pretty neat, I remember it now, thanks.

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## your_comforting_company

Just wondering how your other projects are coming along. I know you've been really busy with syrup lately. Did your bones come clean yet? 
I have about two deer's worth of bones dried on the roof, ready to either be cleaned or macerated (probably going with maceration since temps are back in the 80's).

And where the heck did spring go? I think it only lasted about a week this year.. Tanning season is just about over for me. I don't like to mess around with rotting things when it's 85+ anymore.

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## dizralph

> skin and brains = clothing
> ulna-radius = hide scraper
> toe bones = arrowheads and fishhooks
> sinew (primarily backstrap)= thread, cordage
> skullcap = scraping tool
> scapula = digging tool
> ribs = saw, scraper
> hoof = decorations
> horns = knapping tools (does don't have horns, tho)
> ...


You are very versatile and creative.

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