# Survival > Bushcraft Medicine >  Penicillin??

## Ima Sponge

I know penicillin is made from a mold that grows on plants, but does anyone know if it can be found locally in Western New York, or even the Northeastern section of North America? I just watched a TV show tonight called Revolution, and supposedly they were making it on a poppy plant farm. This area may not be the most ideal for this, but I think it'd be good to know, just in case of an emergency.. I'm also curious about ergot and rye grass. There have been many instances of mass hysteria, and I believe ergot definitely played a part in it all. If there's a medicinal use for it, please speak up.

----------


## crashdive123

I doubt they were growing on the poppy plants.  The most common ("civilian") growth mediums are bread and citrus fruit peels.

----------


## mountainmark

I have couple strains of pennicilium that grow on my cheese. Wonder if I could harvest some of that.

----------


## Chris

You ever get green mold on bread? That is the stuff. Before pennicilin was discovered people would bandage wounds with moldy bread. It is very common, you can assuredly make some at home.

Though, since the discovery of antibiotics, many bacteria have become immune to it, so it is not as useful as it used to be. Still, knowing how to make it is a good skill.

----------


## hunter63

I sure a TV show would use some literary license to lead people to believe that growing penicillin or find it wild, is a considerable stretch.

Seems that the gist of the story line, was of the grower guy, that was into growing and manufacturing pharmaceuticals, for power and profit, but was the only source around for them, good or bad.

Mixing the two, poppies and penicillin, doesn't wash.

You need to research this considerably further.........TV show do put ideas into peoples heads....good and bad.

----------


## canid

When I hear of green spored mold on bread my first thought is generally Trichoderma. Azure blue, or light blue-green are common for domestic Penicillium species. It should be noted that hundreds of species of molds grow in homes, on bread and other nutrient sources. Identifying them positively to species is not a simple matter of noting their spore color and the medium on which they grow. Do remember that while some household molds are harmless (or even tasty), others are pretty toxic. Some infact produce toxins which are immunosuppressants.

I've commented on this before, but Penicillin is not one substance, but a family of substances. Those which are used in modern antibiotics are not produced by the mold, but synthesized from precursors obtained from the mold.




> You ever get green mold on bread? That is the stuff. Before pennicilin was discovered people would bandage wounds with moldy bread. It is very common, you can assuredly make some at home.
> 
> Though, since the discovery of antibiotics, many bacteria have become immune to it, so it is not as useful as it used to be. Still, knowing how to make it is a good skill.

----------


## canid

Further, I would point out that many strains of the various mold species used to produce various antibiotics or their precursors are likely to be GMOs. The ramification here is that the laboratory strains of these species used to not share identical properties with the wild strains of the same which might be encountered in "the wild". These differences could range from the proportions of metabolic products produced, to even the identity of the metabolites themselves.

----------


## WolfVanZandt

Ergot has been used as an abortifactant. Some ergot derivatives have been used in the treatment of Parkinsonism.

The big problem with ergot is that the therapeutic dose is very close to the lethal dose, which is why I question the link between ergot poisoning and the werewolf trials - not to mention that it's a theory without any evidence.

----------


## canid

The symptoms, symptomatic doses and lethal doses are different between the various alkaloids, who's concentrations and proportions again vary between strains and the couple of Ergot species which produce them. Ergotamine itself is also used to treat migraine, as well as being the primary precursor in the synthesis of LSD. These alkaloids (and all indoleamines) are very different from the β-lactam and the antibiotic compounds made from it.

As for the theory, it's just a fun theory, originating in a speculative college paper if I recall.

----------


## Rick

Even at the height of penicillin's heyday it could only treat a specific type of bacteria based on how the bacteria divide and penicillin's ability to impact that cell division. It worked on Gram Positive bacteria but not Gram Negative. So it has never been a panacea but it was an important step forward. Add in the ability of Gram Positive bacteria to adapt defensive mechanisms toward penicillin and you will find the efficacy of home made "penicillin" to be nill and probably far more dangerous than beneficial because of other contaminants (bacteria, fungi, etc.) that would be included.

----------


## canid

With the proper education, experience and resources, myco-antibiotics could certainly be produced in the home, provided you accept that that place in the home by definition would be a compounding pharmacy, and the diyer by definition would be a pharmaceutical chemist. but hey, even professional compounding houses make dangerous mistakes, as this recent fungal meningitis outbreak bears out.

I'd say, become a competent chemist first, *then* decide whether you want to play that game, try to do so in an accredited academic setting, but surely make sure i'm dying with no access to professional care before giving me any.

----------


## tjwilhelm

Being allergic to penicilin, and having experienced a pretty severe MRSA infection (which penicilin wouldn't help with, anyway), I'm wondering if there are any other "home-brewed" antibiotics anyone is aware of.

Thoughts?  Info?

----------


## jfeatherjohn

Buy aqarium meds...
Even an incredibly competent pharmacist would not attempt diy antibiotics.

----------


## canid

> Being allergic to penicilin, and having experienced a pretty severe MRSA infection (which penicilin wouldn't help with, anyway), I'm wondering if there are any other "home-brewed" antibiotics anyone is aware of.
> 
> Thoughts?  Info?


There are tons. Do you happen to be an experienced organic chemist?

----------


## RandyRhoads

As soon as I read the first post (and Chris's) I couldn't wait to read Canids response.... So many people think everything green on bread is Penicillin... Nasty  Trich... always ruining my substrate....

----------


## mountainmark

Antibiotics are not new and don't require a chemistry degree to utilize. Many native peoples from around the world use(d) antibiotics. Some common ones in my area are Usnea, Chaga, Hen of the Woods, pine pitch and balsam poplar. Of course you want to know which one to use for your particular infection (something i'm still working on) and in what dosage. So it requires some work, but is not unimaginable to become proficient at it w/o a degree. As for penicillin....  don't know much about it....

----------


## canid

Yes, it is a wonderful thing that the plant and fungi kingdoms give us so many useful compounds (and indeed, our modern beta-lactam, tetracycline, etc derived mycoantibiotics stem from some of them), but in only very few cases are the quality, consistency or applications of these products competitive with refined drugs. raw Foxglove material for example is not a wise replacement for digoxin, or other glycosides used in the treatment of congestive heart failure.

A plant containing compounds which appear to have some efficacy in the treatment or one or another disorder in traditional usage, or in in-vitro trials which do not fully represent their cycle of in-vivo action is not always a substitute for isolated compounds who's effects have been fully evaluated in an objective proccess, followed by a history of carefully documented use the the whole system.

There is surely room for both, but I'm not inclined to trust bracket fungi in a life threatening emergency if there is an established alternative with quantified efficacy.

----------


## RandyRhoads

> . raw Foxglove material for example is not a wise replacement for digoxin, or other glycosides used in the treatment of congestive heart failure.
> .


I've been wondering for so long if digitalis had any practical use for CHF or any other cardiac issues in wilderness medecine. Are most things in nature that meds are derived from not a practical solution to the problems they are used to treat once refined? Where do you learn more about things like this?  You mentioned in only a few cases does it compare to refined drugs, in what cases?

----------


## canid

It's possibly useful for that, or for killing the patient faster. Digitalis species again demonstrate that the various species may contain varying compounds in varying proportions as to compare with a refined product which can be known to contain only what is put into it. What good is it to treat a patient for heart failure with a plant which also contains compounds which can cause heart failure?

Name a single medicinal plant with only one bioactive substance in it. Let's take the shelf fungi example. Certainly many (probably most, for that matter) of them are shown to contain varying amounts of antimicrobial compounds. Because they are not sterile, they are also covered in potential sources of secondary infections. Some contain such small amounts of such substances that in their raw form they might be useless for treating a wound anyway.

Many of these fungi produce compounds which have tumor inhibiting properties in one type of trial or other. These also contain several known or suspected human and animal carcinogens.

I learn about this, such as I know, primarily from research material published online, and from various user generated wikis.

----------


## RandyRhoads

Ok, do you know of any plants or fungi that CAN be used like the man made refined drugs?

----------


## canid

The FDA, and counterpart organizations in other nations keep rosters of exactly that. They are certainly very far from complete, but determining how, under what circumstances and to what degree they can do so is exactly their purpose.

----------


## WolfVanZandt

There are quite a few natural materials with antiseptic properties - sphagnum moss, honey, wild garlic, and pine sap come to mind. As far as something you can inject or swallow, just keep in mind that the molds that produce antibiotics also produce a host of other substances - some toxic. The man who raised a wolf pack as their alpha swears that their saliva has effective antibiotic properties (and, of course, saliva does have lysozomes, but having me lick your wound would have you in the hospital in a couple of hours - I dunno about wolves). Organic purification techniques would be the key skills for a would-be wilderness pharmacist.

----------


## mountainmark

Edit: couldn't make this sound right.... so I will scrap most of this post (if the mods are ok with that)

I don't trust the FDA, they have far to many conflicts of interest. IMO. Thanks Canid for sharing some good info.

----------


## RandyRhoads

As far as honey and pine sap being a good antiseptic- I just tossed that idea around the ER , and the responses were that the sugar would heavily increases bacterial growth. Any thoughts?

----------


## mountainmark

I haven't tried honey, but I have tried pine sap on more than a few occasions. It took the infection out quick. Though after tasting pine pitch, I can't imagine it has a very high sugar content.

----------


## WolfVanZandt

Sounds like the ER people haven't looked into natural antiseptics. Yes, sugar would normally increase bacterial growth but honey has good antiseptic elements and the osmotic pressure it creates is enough to explode most bacteria around. It has been used successfully (and documented) for treating diabetic ulcers and burns. Honey has been used as an antiseptic for at least as far back as classical Greek times.

----------


## RandyRhoads

They made is clear they weren't educated in wilderness survival or natural remedies but said as a general rule the sugar would be a bad idea. Can you explain how it creates osmotic pressure that explodes bacteria?

----------


## crashdive123

Some in the medical field believe in the use of honey.  I keep these in my first aid kit.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## RandyRhoads

Wow that's really cool Crash. Thanks for sharing that.

----------


## Rick

I can't say I've ever seen honey go bad. No mold or bacteria growing in it. It will convert to sugar over time but that's all I've ever seen. I just keep it stored in the cabinet. 

I'll have to look for those and do some research on them. They do peak my curiosity. Nice post.

----------


## nell67

Honey is the ONLY food that does not go bad,it will get grainy,but heating it up returns it back to it's natural state.

----------


## nell67

> Some in the medical field believe in the use of honey.  I keep these in my first aid kit.
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Honey is used in medical practice,namely for babies born with spina bifida,and it worked,the honey kept the hole from getting infected (antibacterial) .

----------


## canid

There are almost no bacteria which can grow in very high concentrations of sugar, for several reasons, one of which being the sugars' hygroscopic properties, which dessicate living cells, be they sucrose, glucose, maltose, dextrose, lactose, etc. with that said, if you dilute that sugar to a reasonable concentration with water, or water containing material, you're providing one of the most efficient foods imaginable for a great many of them, in a highly usable form.

how concentrated does that sugar stay when your honey 98-80% application is diluted at it's interface with the skin to 1/6 by blood and sweat?

----------


## canid

let's really not forget that in any case, a topical antiseptic does nothing whatever for the need of an internal, systemic antibiotic.

----------


## Rick

That's an excellent point, Canid. The whole purpose of a topical dressing is to prevent external contaminants from having a way inside your bod. A clean, dry dressing does an admirable job. One with some antibiotic properties...all the better. Once the buggies get inside, though, whole new ballgame. By my calculations it would require eating 2.6 tons of honey if you contracted Septicemia. I could be a little off on the math so don't try this at home.

----------


## RandyRhoads

> A clean, dry dressing does an admirable job. .


Not as much as you would think....

----------


## WolfVanZandt

Thanks Randy and Canid. I dropped a byte, there. Hygroscopic pressure doesn't "explode" the bacteria, it dries them out.

Internal antibiotic is useful but the best is a healthy immune system and plenty of blood. I once gouged my finger really good when a Tigershark saw (really aggressive thing, that) jumped the cut and attacked my finger. It bled profusely and everyone wanted me to clean it out and bandage it. I refused - as long as it bled, I was happy. The next day there was a plug clot. The next day, the clot fell out, the next day there was a scar. A week later, you could barely tell that I had been cut to the bone by a wood saw.

In a survival situation, don't let a wound get infected. Keep your tetnus shots up to date Treat a wound when it occurs - don't wait. Remember that a small wound can escalate into a life threatening situation in the wild. Understand when your body is attacking an invader (as, with an abscess or inflammation) or when it is going overboard (when the inflammation turns into an -itis).

Unless you let things get away from you, you shouldn't need an antibiotic in the short term unless you have a compromised immune system. In a long term colony-type situation, it might be a good idea for someone to have taken the precaution of learning wilderness pharmacy - which will require some knowledge of natural drug purification techniques.

That said, I think I've read that garlic does have some systemic antibacterial effects. I'm not so sure I would want to trust that with a serious case of septicemia, though.

If I hadta, though, I think I would find every herb plant I could and make a tea and wash out of it. Many herbs have a mildly antibacterial effect and the cooperative effect might do the job. There's a tradition down south that "Thousand weed" tea (to the rest of you, that would be "cow manure tea") has an almost magical effect on systemic infections. I'm skeptical. The stories I've heard swear that "It always cured me of colds and other respiratory infections within three days" (typically, you get over a cold in three days, anyway).

"It cured me of the whooping cough when I was a child."
"Well, how long did it take."
"Whoa, I coughed and coughed for a long time but it finally cured me....."

The idea, though, is that cows much a wide variety of greenery and the combined effect of all that herbal medicine going through their gut will cause a pharmaceutical wonder to come out he other end.

Well, it doesn't seem that it will kill you; boiling it kills all the enteric bacteria that would make you sick. And some folks include crushed up cough drops in their recipe (I would recommend Ricola for your cow manure tea.) You can try it if you want. I'll demure.

----------


## Wildthang

Man I am not going to drink no cow poop :Scared:

----------


## WolfVanZandt

Heh, I know a state senator that swears by it. In fact, to put a name on it.....

http://www.al.com/specialreport/birm...lackbelt7.html

----------


## wildgarlic

Honey is such concentrated sugar, it dehydrates the bacteria and kills them. High concentrations of salt water would do the same. But in these cases you are talking topical. If you dilue the honey with water, bacteria will thrive in it. Penicillan is the first one discovered, but many other antibiotics are discovered in organisms in soils, the question is, how toxic are they.

----------


## GreatUsername

> Ok, do you know of any plants or fungi that CAN be used like the man made refined drugs?


Unfortunately, most of them are laxatives, and while they work VERY effectively (cascara, from which exlax is made, and called "the kybo rocket" by my old scout troop) that's not as exciting as say... anti-biotics. There are a myriad of topical antiseptics as previously mentioned, but one I noticed was missing was red alder. Supposedly (I honestly don't know, but I've heard this) alder sap can not only be topical, but can be effective if concentrated and taken internally. I also know pacific yew is effective for mild cancer-treatment, and is in fact a protected species specifically because of the drugs made from it, but I imagine the efficacy is significantly less. You might try a tincture of the bark, and then concentrate it as much as possible, but honestly, if you're in a situation where you are treating cancer in the woods, something is already very wrong.

I also heard there is a plant in the Pacific Northwest with purple flowers and leaves that look like mint called "heal-all", which is supposed to be good for various respiratory problems and a handful of other ailments. Does anyone know of this plant, and if so, how effective it is?

----------


## canid

Here's a secret of herbalism: every plant which isn't especially dangerous (and some which are) has been claimed at one point or other to be effective at treating 'breathing problems' (tuberculosis and other respiratory diseases), fever (epidemic viral fevers, e.g. malaria, yellow fever), and 'sores' (venereal disease), for want of an actually effective treatment. Essentially, for all your common, recurrent, epidemic diseases of which people were afraid for about which little could be done.

----------


## GreatUsername

According to wikipedia, though it doesn't seem to do as much with what herbalists claim it does, heal-all (Prunella vulgaris) does some stuff. "In vitro studies have shown it to have an antibacterial action, inhibiting the growth of pseudomonas, Bacillus typhi, E. coli, Mycobacterium tuberculi.[14] It is also showing promise in research for AIDS,[15] and allergies."

I imagine that's kind of how a lot of this goes though. "It's good for this." -shaaman. "Actually, no, but it does have some effects you didn't consider." -modern botano-chemist

----------


## canid

Yeah; that happens a lot.

What really gets me is when the in-vitro studies seem to confirm the claims, but no such human effects greater than statistical error can be observed in internal studies. Some of it's got to be what starts as a confirmation bias, but I wonder if a little of it was healers who paid even more attention to detail than modern reseachers. Basically saying 'Yes, this does seem to do what you said it did, but not strongly enough to observe in a whole person, even statistically.'

----------


## WolfVanZandt

Often, folk medicines have no more than a placebo effect (but, then, placebos can be very effective). Shamans don't just give a medicine and say, "Go home and call me tomorrow". They are holistic practitioners, calling on the entire client, their environment, their circumstances, and their relationships. A shamanic treatment, taken out of context would not even be expected to have results.

On the broader issues, shamans deal with chaotic processes and very tiny initial states (even unmeasurable) can cause very drastic divergences down the line. In that way, they can be effective in situations where science, which is handicapped in chaotic processes, is limited. Most modern shamans will quickly emphasize that they are an adjunct to, and not a substitute to modern medicine.

----------


## ubercrow

> Buy aqarium meds...
> Even an incredibly competent pharmacist would not attempt diy antibiotics.


^X2.You can go into the pet store and buy 99% pure antibiotics for a few bucks.  

Mold that grows on grain can be extremely deadly.. it can rot a person to death with no cure. It is so complex and so much of it is unknown, it is not something to play with. It would be the equivalent of skipping thru the wood eating random mushrooms.

----------


## welderguy

> ^X2.You can go into the pet store and buy 99% pure antibiotics for a few bucks. 
> 
> Mold that grows on grain can be extremely deadly.. it can rot a person to death with no cure. It is so complex and so much of it is unknown, it is not something to play with. It would be the equivalent of skipping thru the wood eating random mushrooms.


Here is a little info on fish antibiotics, before you buy any check these following things out, The manufacturer , and the imprint on the pill, Some fishbiotics are exactly the same as ours from the same manufacturers ..

----------


## WolfVanZandt

There is also the issue of knowing how to use them.

Penicillin is one of the least toxic substances around (in pharmacy, they told us that it's less toxic than sugar), unless you're allergic to it. Other antibiotics are another matter. It's easy to overdose on tetracycline (a double dose will do it) and once you get too much of that one, you won't want to do it again. Antibiotics like sulfa drugs and fluoroquinolones (Cipro) have some rather nasty (and common) side effects.

And individual antibiotics are good for different things. Penicillin is pretty much worthless for the new antibiotic resistant bacteria. Penicillin, in it's active form, doesn't partition out very well into the urinary tract, but Cipro does. So does tetracycline. Tetracycline is a drug of choice for the kinds of things you get off ticks.

----------


## Cement Blonde

When civilization comes to a halt I will break into the local drug store and help myself to what ever I need.

Until everything in there expires.

Damn, didn't anyone read "The Stand"?

----------


## welderguy

> When civilization comes to a halt I will break into the local drug store and help myself to what ever I need.
> 
> Until everything in there expires.
> 
> Damn, didn't anyone read "The Stand"?


 Do you really think  that there your the only one thinking that. with in days maybe hours , grocery stores, Pharmacies , and sporting goods stors will be stripped bare.

----------


## ubercrow

> Here is a little info on fish antibiotics, before you buy any check these following things out, The manufacturer , and the imprint on the pill, Some fishbiotics are exactly the same as ours from the same manufacturers ..


I think your link is missing.?

----------


## welderguy

> I think your link is missing.?


 I didnt post one. Ill find it and link it if you want it.

----------


## ubercrow

> I didnt post one. Ill find it and link it if you want it.


Oh my bad,, I read it wrong "check these following things out" not- check this out.

----------

