# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  a time before bullets.

## hayshaker

A long time ago there were just sticks and stones then man learned to flint knap.
he learned to make knives, spears and stone clubs and Atlatls. and for thousands
of years they served man quite well. today there seems to ba a resurgence in 
learning the old ways of ancient weaponry.from flint knapped knivesto long bows and
yes crossbows as well.these weapons put much game on the roasting pit before their
were pots and pans.i have noticed that many not all here have the experience and passion
to build such things and that is great. it will be a learning curve indeed for those who do not
possess the knowledge to make thier own hunting gear. myself i,ve still yet to make a bow.

i own quite a few but that,s not the point i,ve yet to learn to build my own there in lies
the deal. one must learn to do those things . one day probably not in our life times who knows.
that there will be no more bullets at best MABEY black powder who knows. i just think it a good thing
to pass on all the skills we possess in aboriginal weapon making to the younger genorations while
were still able. knowledge in survival is trully priceless.

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## kyratshooter

So we are in a decent into the stone age?

We will lose all memory, knowledge and record of how to produce and maintain a technology base?

And our children will be so stupid we can not teach them how to smelt metal, build generators, machine engine blocks, make cell phones or build a firearm and the ammunition it needs?

Is it 2012 again?

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## hunter63

A worthy hobby for some people.....
Good to know how to collect materials, make and use tools primitive tools.

Not for everyone.

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## hayshaker

krat this post is not meant to be any kind of post this or that. 
more of a history and learning thing.

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## Rick

You did say "one must learn to do those things". Personally, I have no interest in making weapons. It's not something I want to do. And I doubt Winchester, Remington, Federal and the rest will go softly into that good night. Nor will we nor the NRA allow it.

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## hayshaker

as i said this may not be in OUR lifetime but our childrens lifetime.
as for the NRA that,s political and belongs in the political thread.

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## Rick

Sorry, there is nothing political about mentioning the NRA. Maybe I should have left it with "we" since I am the NRA.

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## DSJohnson

Dang it Rick your "Rep" parameters won't let me give you "REP" for that last post but Thank you!

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## Auban

I would be more interested in learning to improvise firearms.  Black powder is easy enough, but I have never made a muzzle loader, let alone my own cartridges.

Given the chance, I would try to skip the stone age...

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## kyratshooter

Once more we are dealing with the difference between wilderness survival and an apocalyptic survival scenario.

In the real world, rescue is going to be effected before one can make a good bow or chip a stone point for it, or even before the need for the bow arises.  Such need being mitigated by proper prior planning in the first place.

https://gis.e-education.psu.edu/site...l_20130502.pdf

Approximately 93% of SAR missions are completed within 24 hours, with 50% completed within 3 hours and 81% taking between 3 to 12 hours to complete (Koester 2008). As missions exceed 24-hours survival rates decrease, for example to 38% for children aged 4-6 years and to 76% for hikers (Koester 2008). Without the ability to respond to SAR incidents, these fatalities would be 20% higher (Heggie and Amundson 2009).

We keep enduring these attempts at being dragged into these long term apocalyptic situations where the desire for the  return of the "Noble Savage" dominates rather than common sense or fact. 

Making stone tools is a nice hobby and an excellent study, but its use as a survival skill can be eliminated by even the most basic shred of planning before one walks out the door of the house on his way to the woods.

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## Rick

And a simple look at the world's mega disasters show just how quickly man bounces back. Our desire to remain within our comfort zone is also what drives our return to normalcy...whatever that is in that location.

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## Enigma

> Once more we are dealing with the difference between wilderness survival and an apocalyptic survival scenario.
> 
> In the real world, rescue is going to be effected before one can make a good bow or chip a stone point for it, or even before the need for the bow arises. Such need being mitigated by proper prior planning in the first place.
> 
> https://gis.e-education.psu.edu/site...l_20130502.pdf
> 
> 
> Approximately 93% of SAR missions are completed within 24 hours, with 50% completed within 3 hours and 81% taking between 3 to 12 hours to complete (Koester 2008). As missions exceed 24-hours survival rates decrease, for example to 38% for children aged 4-6 years and to 76% for hikers (Koester 2008). Without the ability to respond to SAR incidents, these fatalities would be 20% higher (Heggie and Amundson 2009).
> 
> ...


Wow, what an awesome response. We teach (from local stats) rescue within 72 hours. However we also teach primitive, expediant and modern, for ALL survival subjects. The sad fact is most people who need rescue in the wilderness (besides medical emergencies) are either low skilled and ill prepared people, or the 'extreme' end of the skill set who push themselves too far. You'd be surprised how many bushwalkers we get, who can't use a compass or read topos. It is quite often after they have experienced getting caught out, ill prepared, that they come on a survival course. We teach that there will be a 'crossover' to long term survival after those 72 hours, therefore skills like hunting and trapping, come into play. There was a case recently of a Dad with 2 sons, who got their 4wd bogged on a remote property, and they were stuck for 11days. Fortunately they stayed with their vehicle, and were found. They had run out of food after 3 days, and just drank rain water from puddles. They were smart staying put. Recently in the past couple of months there were also deaths of individuals who tried to walk back to homesteads and died (no water).
So many people never prep their vehicles for some bizarre reason.
On the subject of primitive weapons in survival situations, weapons such as spears and throwing sticks, and clubs can be used almost immediately to procure food. One doesnt have to fashion more complex weapons like bows, if they havn't got that skill set up to speed yet.

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## Enigma

The "Apocalypse' rubbish annoys me too. This forums title is "Wilderness Survival", I thought that would be pretty clear to everyone? 

Dudes that wear cammo at the keyboard, and dream of 'when the s@#* hits the fan" crap, really need to get some counselling. Obviously their 9-5 jobs don't fulfil them much, if they need to escape into fantasyland.

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## Rick

Well, S can HTF even in the wilderness I guess. We do discuss the broader range of dangers out there. I look at weather related and some man made events (train derailment, meth lab, etc). However, just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I think they need counseling. Your desire to degrade others with different beliefs is fairly prevalent in your posts. Maybe less coffee through the day would be helpful. Post 12 was a good one.

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## hayshaker

survival comes in many forms, be it hurricaines,civil unrest,wilderness trips gone bad,economic collaspe,major riots such as 
fergusson,mo-baltimore,md and various other natural events happen all the time. these things are not delutional bs.
they do happen. survival is all about wanting to live. not burying one,s head in the sand cause of the world around them.

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## hunter63

> The "Apocalypse' rubbish annoys me too. This forums title is "Wilderness Survival", I thought that would be pretty clear to everyone? 
> 
> Dudes that wear cammo at the keyboard, and dream of 'when the s@#* hits the fan" crap, really need to get some counselling. Obviously their 9-5 jobs don't fulfil them much, if they need to escape into fantasyland.


Vote with your remote, and don't pay attention to those threads that annoy you.

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## Enigma

> survival comes in many forms, be it hurricaines,civil unrest,wilderness trips gone bad,economic collaspe,major riots such as 
> fergusson,mo-baltimore,md and various other natural events happen all the time. these things are not delutional bs.
> they do happen. survival is all about wanting to live. not burying one,s head in the sand cause of the world around them.


No-one is disagreeing with that. They are all localised events. 

However the term 'when the s#$* hits the fan' is bandied around on ALL apocalyptic/survivalist style forums worldwide, as if it's going to be a one time occurrence, and all of humanity as we know it collapses. I can go on a U.S site and read the same crap on a British site, or an Aussie one, and even European ones. 

All this crap about "when our grandchildren inherit a barren earth with no infastructure, we will all need to ride horses". etc, it's ridiculous. Just because something happens in one part of the world, dosen't mean the whole planet is affected. Take Fukishima for instance. No fallout for us, thank you very much.

I think some people just like to dream of a dystopian world they IMAGINE they would enjoy.

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## crashdive123

> No-one is disagreeing with that. They are all localised events. 
> 
> However the term 'when the s#$* hits the fan' is bandied around on ALL apocalyptic/survivalist style forums worldwide, as if it's going to be a one time occurrence, and all of humanity as we know it collapses. I can go on a U.S site and read the same crap on a British site, or an Aussie one, and even European ones. 
> 
> All this crap about "when our grandchildren inherit a barren earth with no infastructure, we will all need to ride horses". etc, it's ridiculous. Just because something happens in one part of the world, dosen't mean the whole planet is affected. Take Fukishima for instance. No fallout for us, thank you very much.
> 
> I think some people just like to dream of a dystopian world they IMAGINE they would enjoy.


It's a fad that will hopefully be outgrown at some point.  That however may take some time since there is a very strong marketing push to convince shoppers that the end is near and they need to buy (insert product here) which they happen to sell......and if you act now get your second one free......just pay extra shipping and handling.

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## hayshaker

so then is all this survival/shtf/teotawaki stuff just a hussle to sell stuff.
I really wonder if it is i still got a lot of cool gear if it is true the God help the unprepared
and those that suffer from normalcy bias/cocnitive dissononance.i must admit there is the backpack porn
and molle gear issue i suffer from.what can i say i,m a camper at heart

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## jdbushcraft

My end goal would be to become more self reliant.  Have food put away, purchased and home canned, to the point I could go several months and not have to divert funds to food that might be needed to keep the mortgage paid and gas in the truck.  Under/unemployment is my biggest concern.  I like wilderness survival knowledge because I enjoy camping and am at times in places that knowledge could save me or at least keep me more comfortable.  I'm not bugging out to the woods but would love to retire there. :-)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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## wilderness medic

> The "Apocalypse' rubbish annoys me too. This forums title is "Wilderness Survival", I thought that would be pretty clear to everyone? 
> 
> Dudes that wear cammo at the keyboard, and dream of 'when the s@#* hits the fan" crap, really need to get some counselling. Obviously their 9-5 jobs don't fulfil them much, if they need to escape into fantasyland.



 :Thumbup:  :Thumbup:  The same guys I see at Wal Mart standing in front of the ammo cabinet talking about how they like this ammo for sniping or how they are ready for the Apocalypse because they have 100 rounds of 5.56 and a cliff bar.


Then again I guess I can't talk i'm pretty tacticool myself.  :Whistling:  :jango:

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## 1983

SHTF happens to some people all the time... I'm unemployed right ATM so it's definitely hit the fan for me for the time being.

I'm currently using my time off to try to get my AZ truck licence and build and plant some raised garden beds but money's a little tight as per usual. So since I'm broke as hell I'm using the little resources I have set aside to learn more from the forest and utilizing what I already know to help ease my money situation.

Fishing and hunting and trapping help and since I can't afford allot of booze to forget my troubles I've been making axe handles for the few heads I've had sitting around and learning how to make stone aged bows and the likes to preoccupy the time I have outside of job searches and handing out resumes.

As for an apocalyptic scenario it's more feasible than people would think considering Iran is producing fissionable material for "nuclear power" and many other things still that could bugger us up.

Hell my one idea of how it could all go really bad is an epidemic where rabies and TB joined up to have a baby, Very much so far fetched and I know it isn't going to happen but look at how people now react to the common flu and tell me it's not possible.

As it stands the world is a broken place right now, I want every tool I can have for the possible coming storm being it a month or two out of work or some very long years of economical strife.

To each their own but it never hurt anyone to learn a little extra.

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## Rick

Rabies and TB? Would you cough your lungs up before or after your hair fell out? Don't matter I guess. I'm pretty sure if I saw a guy with lungs hanging off his lips I'd probably put him down just to play safe. Same with a bald guy that didn't have eyebrows. Can't be too careful.

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## ClayPick

My son hunts with with a handmade bow. He came to a point where hunting with a rifle offered little to no challenge at all.

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## Lamewolf

> And a simple look at the world's mega disasters show just how quickly man bounces back. Our desire to remain within our comfort zone is also what drives our return to normalcy...whatever that is in that location.



What is "normalcy" ????????????  :Cowboy:

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## hunter63

> What is "normalcy" ????????????


Get up when you feel like it, .....let out the dogs, .....take dump, morning slick up,....have my coffee and maybe a toast, muffin or bagel...let in the dogs...read the paper...Funnies first......flip on the 'puter, check messages....check in with y'all to see if the EOTWAWKI has happened or not.

Decide on POtD........

No need to patrol AO perimeter, or dust a couple of squatters, (maybe?)....or duck and cover......
Yeah...That's a good start.

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## kyratshooter

Normalcy is only misunderstood, undefinable, and unattainable by abnormal people.

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## Rick

As I said..."Whatever that is in that location".

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## Wise Old Owl

> You did say "one must learn to do those things". Personally, I have no interest in making weapons. It's not something I want to do. And I doubt Winchester, Remington, Federal and the rest will go softly into that good night. Nor will we nor the NRA allow it.


We are headed so fast to act like Canada... they are phoning down here and asking AhY?

Check this out....Epa at their stupidity

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...ion-production

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## Rick

Yeah, there were a couple of posts on that. It occurred in 2013 and we're still shooting. That was a decision made by the manufacturer. How is Doe Run doing today? Just fine. 

http://www.doerun.com/minerals-metal...future-of-lead

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## Rick

I remembered a pretty good article on the closing and finally found it. 

http://bearingarms.com/its-the-end-o...d-i-feel-fine/

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## TXyakr

> A long time ago there were just sticks and stones then man learned to flint knap.
> he learned to make knives, spears and stone clubs and Atlatls. and for thousands
> of years they served man quite well. today there seems to ba a resurgence in 
> learning the old ways of ancient weaponry.from flint knapped knivesto long bows and
> yes crossbows as well.these weapons put much game on the roasting pit before their
> were pots and pans.i have noticed that many not all here have the experience and passion
> to build such things and that is great. it will be a learning curve indeed for those who do not
> possess the knowledge to make thier own hunting gear. myself i,ve still yet to make a bow.
> 
> ...


IMO most people are overly intemidated by advanced knapper master crafts people or think stone that can be knapped is expensive or hard to find. Start very simple, make a crude knife or cutting/scrapping tool with broken glass or whatever tie to a stick, instructions on YouTube.
Also about 7 generations after Adam Tubal-Cain was instructing people in bronze and iron. Not sure what his youtube channel was. Ha ha ha. Genesis 4:22 this history passed down by clay tablets to Abraham then on to Moses who wrote it on papyrus.
I and many others can make simple crude firearms in garage or shop with stuff from hardware store and propellent from materials from H.W. or grocery or just dig up in certain locations, also info on Internet and public library, access via your card just use Wi-Fi from home or where ever. BUT!!! much faster, easier and cheaper to buy better firearms at local sports store or Walmart.

Warning!!! Don't blow your face off or blind yourself with foolish handmade firearms. When a teen friend shot a brass pistol intended for ornenmentation and it blew up, he was holding it around the corner of a wall. I always tied mine to old tires, pulled trigger with long cord, gradually increased charge.

You could be on a beach almost anywhere in the world for the next 300 years and easily  find a glass bottle crack it open and Knapp a useful tool out of the bottom of it and possibly the sides as well. Try it! Search youtube.

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## hunter63

> ................
> You could be on a beach almost anywhere in the world for the next 300 years and easily  find a glass bottle crack it open and Knapp a useful tool out of the bottom of it and possibly the sides as well. Try it! Search youtube.


This should read "Try it...NOW....and learn now....Search You tubes ......NOW....."
The whole point is....There may very well be no You tube ....or "An app for that".

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## kyratshooter

This reminds me that I am down to less than 200 pounds of lead and need to get down to the scrap yard and restock the barrels.

That smelter thing did get me on the ball as far as a long term supply of lead goes.  I doubt what I had in the past would have lasted me more than 10-15 years!

But I am not concerned as much about the apocalypse shutting down my supply as I am the EPA shutting down my supply.

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## Rick

In ancient China a warrior general was commanding a garrison and they had run out of arrows to defend it. Overnight, they made straw men and hung them over the outside of the walls. At day break the enemy thought they were attacking soldiers and filled them full of arrows. The general then hoisted up the straw men and collected the arrows. Presto! Instant ammo. I plan on doing something similar for lead. I'll just follow the attacking hordes and go around and dig them out of the walls after they move on.

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## kyratshooter

On the frontier it was common to dig lead out of the walls of a stockade after a siege.

It was also common for the hunters to dig the lead ball out of a dead animal, melt it down and recycle it.  

Of course they were using guns of .54-75 caliber, so it was quite a chunk of lead they were searching for.

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## 1983

Got a bunch of 30-30 cast lead rounds, If it's in a deer when I butcher it chances are I can melt it back down and make another round. As for finding lead on the go if there's a bunch of abandoned cars there'll be allot of useful wheel weights just sitting along the road.

For flint napping I have allot of shale rock around my area that doesn't like to be hit too much... Instead I break the shale into as close to an arrow head shape as I can then use another flat piece of shale to grind and sharpen it on.

As for bottles... I'd try to keep them intact seeing as you can make distillers or other odds and ends out of them. EMP hits for whatever reason and pretty much all the cars are pooched there's always the poor mans grenade that can be made.

As it sits though I got four carburrated vehicles sitting in my yard... Actually prefer them seeing as there isn't a billion sensors and things to go wrong with them.

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