# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Using a 3 season tent in cold winter weather?

## jc1234

I really dont have the money to buy a 4  season tent.  I do have a -30 sleeping bag and self inflating pad and a sleeping pad.  Is there any reason that a 3 season tent wont due?  My 3 season tent has plenty of attachment points for guying out and does well in the wind.  My dog has a fluffy double winter coat and a self inflatable dog bed along with a few blankets.

Any reason I cant make due with a 3 season tent? 

Temperatures would be -5 to +20 without windchill.  Not less than -15 with the windchill.

I know a few of you dont even use a tent when you camp, so Im figuring if you can do it with no tent, a 3 season will work as long as it will stay up under snow and wind?

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## crashdive123

The big differences are in material weight/strength, poles, mesh panels.  The four season tents will hold up better to the extreme conditions and higher winds.  Your three season will work (hopefully your mesh panels have a zip up cover) but may not hold up as well to prolonged use.

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## Sourdough

The MAIN difference between a so called three season tent & a so called four season tent is: the four season tent Fly will come down and touch the ground, and the three season tent the fly will only come about six inches from the ground........I do hope this is pertinent.

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## jc1234

Yes, my tenet has the outer shell that covers everything including the fly and comes down about 6" above the ground.  I am planning on going camping once or twice this winter for a few days each and I just dont have the hundreds of dollars that a 4 season tent costs.

I figured with enough insulation around me, the tents only real use would be to keep the wind off (mostly) and keep me dry.  I was thinking that I could pack snow around the gap between the outer shell and the mesh as an insulator against the wind.  Do you think that would work?

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## pgvoutdoors

Many times I've used a strong three season tent for winter camping. If it has a good frame system it will hold up just fine. Make sure you do use the guy-lines and stake it out. Most four-season tents are made for mountaineering and are over built for normal winter camping.

The one problem you may have with a three-season tent is the sceen panels; the fine snow crystals will blow through them. No tent is really warm in the winter, it just keeps the wind and snow off you.  Once your in your sleeping bag all is good.

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## crashdive123

> Yes, my tenet has the outer shell that covers everything including the fly and comes down about 6" above the ground.  I am planning on going camping once or twice this winter for a few days each and I just dont have the hundreds of dollars that a 4 season tent costs.
> 
> I figured with enough insulation around me, the tents only real use would be to keep the wind off (mostly) and keep me dry.  I was thinking that I could pack snow around the gap between the outer shell and the mesh as an insulator against the wind.  Do you think that would work?


Yes.......

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## jc1234

> Yes.......


Cool.  Snow is free...tents are not lol.  Besides, I have a big furry dog to keep me warm.  It was 8 degrees out last night with brutal winds and he kept closing my laptop with his nose until I let him outside to go enjoy the weather.  Sometimes he makes me wonder lol.  But he is an amazing heat generator...although he does snore pretty loud which can be annoying when Im trying to sleep.

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## finallyME

Tents don't keep you warm.  As long as your tent can hold the snow load, all is good.

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## Sourdough

Professionals here use Eureka "Bomb Shelter" tents. Or North Face VE-24 or VE-25.

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## hunter63

Problem with snow, it may be there it may not when you need it to do your filling, but you don't want too much for snow load reasons.
Not dependable.....so I would come up with some kind of skirt for blocking wind and such.

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## jc1234

> Professionals here use Eureka "Bomb Shelter" tents. Or North Face VE-24 or VE-25.


Ive looked at TNF mountain 25, the Nemo 2p & 3p and some of the mountain hardware mountaineering tents, they all look great.  I will get one eventually, but I upgraded most of my gear this year and I dont have another cent to spend on gear until next winter.




> Problem with snow, it may be there it may not when you need it to do your filling, but you don't want too much for snow load reasons.
> Not dependable.....so I would come up with some kind of skirt for blocking wind and such.


Ive thought of getting a really big tarp, like the generic ones they sell for covering a car or small boat and.  They have plenty of gromets on the edges that can be staked out and they are water resistant.  Its certainly not a perfect solution and its not breathable, so condensation will be annoying, but it seems like a cheap bandaid for the time being.

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## huntermj

My three seasom, north face has done me good down to 5 deg. but i havent tried it here in 20 below, we will see

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## jc1234

> My three seasom, north face has done me good down to 5 deg. but i havent tried it here in 20 below, we will see


Thanks for the info.  I tend to stay home when the high is below +5.  Im just not man enough for hiking when its much colder than that...plus the cameras all seem to freeze up and get lens fog near those temps.

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## klkak

> Professionals here use Eureka "Bomb Shelter" tents. Or North Face VE-24 or VE-25.


Or Alaska Tent and Tarp's "Arctic Oven" tent.

http://www.alaskatent.com/oven.html

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## rwc1969

the only problem I've had was trying to put one up or take it down when it's real cold and windy. Things ice up and seem to get brittle. I broke a tent pole on my dome tent taking it down in heavy wind with ice and snow.

I use it for ice fishing and stay plenty warm with just a thick Mexican blanket to insulate the floor of it. If I have my one mantle lantern going I can sometimes lay there with my t-shirt on and boots off.

I really haven't camped in the winter with it, but if I can sit on the ice all day and night in below zero temps with a severe wind chill I'd think it would work. 

Mine is just a cheapo dome tent with fly that only comes about 6" below the mesh. I've never had issue with snow forming on it, icy rain will though.

I like the idea of using a tarp along with it, would make it more wind resistant and if you run it out front would make a portal to enter as well.

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## jc1234

> the only problem I've had was trying to put one up or take it down when it's real cold and windy. Things ice up and seem to get brittle. I broke a tent pole on my dome tent taking it down in heavy wind with ice and snow.
> 
> I use it for ice fishing and stay plenty warm with just a thick Mexican blanket to insulate the floor of it. If I have my one mantle lantern going I can sometimes lay there with my t-shirt on and boots off.
> 
> I really haven't camped in the winter with it, but if I can sit on the ice all day and night in below zero temps with a severe wind chill I'd think it would work. 
> 
> Mine is just a cheapo dome tent with fly that only comes about 6" below the mesh. I've never had issue with snow forming on it, icy rain will though.
> 
> I like the idea of using a tarp along with it, would make it more wind resistant and if you run it out front would make a portal to enter as well.


I have an REI quarter dome t3 tent that I really like, it seems pretty sturdy as long as its staked out well.  I havent had to guy it yet, but in winter I would.  I use a tarp inside the tent to keep my dogs nails from destroying the tent material and it just seems like a larger tarp on the outside would do pretty good.  The downside is they are really heavy, much, much heavier than a 4 season tent when you combine the weight of my tent with a large tarp, but this winter I'll just be car camping, I wont be backpacking.  Although I would really like to do some winter backpacking eventually.  For the time being Im happy hiking my same set of trails because I like taking photos of the frozen waterfalls in winter, but eventually I really need to branch out and expand my hikes which will require more than just car camping.

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## Stargazer

The wife and I camped for our first anniversary.We had a 3 season EMS North Star. It was all mesh. And the rain fly came about the same 4-6 inches shy of the ground.We were the only ones camping on Mt Monadnock on March 31st.That night we got treated to 6 inces of snow.The tent held up great.And we didnt get any snow inside.Yes it was cold but once you were in your bag everything was good.

I say try it in the back yard first.If you run into any problems just take the walk back inside.We have the REI Quarter Dome T2 now.Its got less mesh than the older EMS tent did and the fly comes closer to the ground too. I'd give it a shot.

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## jc1234

on our last camping trip it was 35 in the tent and the only issue I had was with my sleeping pad not insulating enough from the cold of the ground.  Even when I get a 4 season tent, I think that will remain an issue.  Has anyone had good luck with a particular pad?  Id like something light enough that I could backpack with, but Im willing to compromise if I find something really cheap just to use for this winter.

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## klkak

Here is a picture of an Arctic oven Tent with the discription.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
Alaska Tent & Tarp’s Arctic Oven tent is the premier cold weather camping tent. It has been in use for years as the elite winter camping tent from the North Pole to the South Pole. Although it can be used as a four season tent, the Arctic Oven tent specializes in winter camping with its condensation-free interior and the option of putting a stove inside for warmth. The Arctic Oven tent is a specialized piece of equipment that redefines the standard of quality, durability, and functional performance. Alaska Tent & Tarp has combined proven design, superior materials, and quality craftsmanship to create a truly no compromise, all-season tent.

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## jc1234

> Here is a picture of an Arctic oven Tent with the discription.
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
> Alaska Tent & Tarps Arctic Oven tent is the premier cold weather camping tent. It has been in use for years as the elite winter camping tent from the North Pole to the South Pole. Although it can be used as a four season tent, the Arctic Oven tent specializes in winter camping with its condensation-free interior and the option of putting a stove inside for warmth. The Arctic Oven tent is a specialized piece of equipment that redefines the standard of quality, durability, and functional performance. Alaska Tent & Tarp has combined proven design, superior materials, and quality craftsmanship to create a truly no compromise, all-season tent.


So how much does something like that weigh?

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## SARKY

Tents!..... You don't need no stinkin' tents! Just build yourself a leanto, insulate it, close off half of the open front, build a fire with reflector in front of (but not blocking) the open half and you will be toasty warm all night.

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## finallyME

Most winter campers use two pads.  Make sure they are insulated pads.  A closed cell foam, or an inflatable with insulation inside.  Walmart's blue CCF is around $6.  I use a BA insulated air core and a ridgerest I got at a thrift store for $5.  The army OD green CCF is also a great choice.

Oh yeah, some will also put a space blanket either under both pads, or in between them.

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## jc1234

> Most winter campers use two pads.  Make sure they are insulated pads.  A closed cell foam, or an inflatable with insulation inside.  Walmart's blue CCF is around $6.  I use a BA insulated air core and a ridgerest I got at a thrift store for $5.  The army OD green CCF is also a great choice.
> 
> Oh yeah, some will also put a space blanket either under both pads, or in between them.


I have one close cell foam, one self inflating (ya right) pad and a -30 sleeping bag (another yeah right) the only places I feel fold from are underneath me and of course the zipper area.  I got my closed cell foam pad for $15.00, its pretty heavy and was hoping to find something better thats a little lighter.

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## Rick

Check eBay. I bought a couple of Thermarest military surplus pads and they've been great.

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## finallyME

> I have one close cell foam, one self inflating (ya right) pad and a -30 sleeping bag (another yeah right) the only places I feel fold from are underneath me and of course the zipper area.  I got my closed cell foam pad for $15.00, its pretty heavy and was hoping to find something better thats a little lighter.


Heavy and CCF generally don't go together.  You will be hard pressed to find a lighter pad than a CCF pad.

Almost all pads have an R-value.  This is like your insulation in your house.  The higher the value, the better it is at keeping you warm.  My BA mattress has an R-value of 4 and weighs 21 oz.  A regular length blue CCF has an R-value around 1.5 and weighs 7 oz.  A thermorest basecamp regular length has an R-value of 5 and weighs 41 ounces.  The thermorest prolite regular length has an r-value of 2.2 and weighs 16 oz.  The king of mattresses IMHO is the Exped Downmat 9 with an R-value of 8 and weighs 36 oz.  This pad is probably one of the most comfortable and only costs $180.  The price is the only reason I don't have one.  I will get one (I will claim it is for my wife, she will use it when we are together, and I use it for Boy Scouts  :Smile:  ).  I believe you can stack pads and then just add the R-value for the total.  So, 2 Blue CCFs will weigh 14 oz and have a 3 R-value.  That beats the thermorest prolite in weight, cost, and R-value, but not packability.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Or Alaska Tent and Tarp's "Arctic Oven" tent.
> 
> http://www.alaskatent.com/oven.html


If only I could afford one. I use thier wall tents but if the Nenana ever breaks up when it is supposed to I'll have one.

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## jc1234

> Heavy and CCF generally don't go together.  You will be hard pressed to find a lighter pad than a CCF pad.
> 
> Almost all pads have an R-value.  This is like your insulation in your house.  The higher the value, the better it is at keeping you warm.  My BA mattress has an R-value of 4 and weighs 21 oz.  A regular length blue CCF has an R-value around 1.5 and weighs 7 oz.  A thermorest basecamp regular length has an R-value of 5 and weighs 41 ounces.  The thermorest prolite regular length has an r-value of 2.2 and weighs 16 oz.  The king of mattresses IMHO is the Exped Downmat 9 with an R-value of 8 and weighs 36 oz.  This pad is probably one of the most comfortable and only costs $180.  The price is the only reason I don't have one.  I will get one (I will claim it is for my wife, she will use it when we are together, and I use it for Boy Scouts  ).  I believe you can stack pads and then just add the R-value for the total.  So, 2 Blue CCFs will weigh 14 oz and have a 3 R-value.  That beats the thermorest prolite in weight, cost, and R-value, but not packability.


Mine has to be at least 1.5 pounds and has a R rating of 1.4.  I did get the wide and long version, which is part of the issue probably.  It was one of the first gear I got a few years back when I put comfort first and weight second.  I dont do the large sized stuff anymore.  I see either really thin CCF or air mattresses on REI and LL bean.  I dont mind the weight, if its really warm, otherwise I can find the same R rating for 1/3 the weight.

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## finallyME

> Mine has to be at least 1.5 pounds and has a R rating of 1.4.  I did get the wide and long version, which is part of the issue probably.  It was one of the first gear I got a few years back when I put comfort first and weight second.  I dont do the large sized stuff anymore.  I see either really thin CCF or air mattresses on REI and LL bean.  I dont mind the weight, if its really warm, otherwise I can find the same R rating for 1/3 the weight.


If I were you, I would buy a $6 ccf from Walmart and give it a try.  Ditch your old ccf and put the self inflating on top of the wally world one.  If that doesn't work, then look to spend more.

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## klkak

> If only I could afford one. I use their wall tents but if the Nenana ever breaks up when it is supposed to I'll have one.


I too have one of their wall tents, a 12x14. Had them add an extra 2ft to the wall so the wall would be a foot higher and have extra material laying on the ground to prevent under wall drafts.

One day I would like to have an Arctic oven myself.

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## RichJ

I won't quote everyone who says that a tent won't keep you any warmer but...  I have a 4-season tent and it definately is warmer on the inside than the outside air temperature.  There is a good reason so let me explain.

The difference between a 3-season tent and a 4-season tent isn't how far the rain-fly comes down to the ground but instead, how it closes up; specifically the mesh panels.  Yes, my tent's fly comes all the way to the ground all the way around, but's that's not what keeps it warmer.  It has large mesh "windows" on each side and the top and each of them have their own solid panel that zips over it.  You can let those panels down when it's warm for ventilation or close them all up when it's cold.  I don't care if you have a $400 North Face tent, if you have any open panels you are going to let in cold; or more importantly, you are going to let out heat.  Once the tent is sealed, your body heat gets trapped and has an oven effect.  If there are open panels, the tent won't "oven" but instead let out all that good body heat.  The smaller the inside space, the less air you have to heat and the greater the "oven" effect.  Therefore, A winter tent should only be big enough to be a relatively comfortable space for just the number of people you put in it.  You wouldn't want a 4-man tent if you only have 3-people because of the extra air space that you have to heat up.  I have tested my tent many times by measuring the air temps both outside and inside once you get in and stay a while.  From my observations I can say that my tent is consistantly a solid 10 degrees warmer inside than what it is outside.  10 degrees is a big difference when you are talking about having to sleep in 30 degree temps as opposed to 20 degree temps.  I hope this helps.  By the way... my tent is a 2-man REI backpacking tent.  I can't remember the name of it though but it is a great tent.  I've had it for 12 years and have camped so many times in it I can't even estimate how many uses it has gotten and it still looks practically brand new.

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## Trabitha

> I really dont have the money to buy a 4  season tent.  I do have a -30 sleeping bag and self inflating pad and a sleeping pad.  Is there any reason that a 3 season tent wont due?  My 3 season tent has plenty of attachment points for guying out and does well in the wind.  My dog has a fluffy double winter coat and a self inflatable dog bed along with a few blankets.
> 
> Any reason I cant make due with a 3 season tent? 
> 
> Temperatures would be -5 to +20 without windchill.  Not less than -15 with the windchill.
> 
> I know a few of you dont even use a tent when you camp, so Im figuring if you can do it with no tent, a 3 season will work as long as it will stay up under snow and wind?


I was thinking he same thing this past week.  I also have a 3 season tent that I was wondering about functioning...but do you know what I came across?  THIS!  http://www.trailspace.com/gear/eurek...e-outfitter-4/
It's more than a 3 season, but not by a lot...the box claimed to keep the temp in the tent above freezing, even if the temp is below 20 outside.  Now...I have the normal Timberland 3 season, and from experience the tent was actually WARM at 35 degrees and never leaked.  The 4 person we have fits all three of our family members comfortably with our packs.  I would just recommend a "floor saver" as an investment...because the material they use for the floor is really thin.  I just worry about it getting wet if the ground beneath thaws...

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## Rick

Throw a tarp under it. I generally lay a tarp down under my tent just to take the abuse from rocks and sticks I might miss and the bottom of the tent stays dry and clean so packing it up is easier. If I'm car camping that is.

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## Trabitha

> Throw a tarp under it. I generally lay a tarp down under my tent just to take the abuse from rocks and sticks I might miss and the bottom of the tent stays dry and clean so packing it up is easier. If I'm car camping that is.


yeah, I use a tarp too.  I'm just a bit paranoid.  The last thing I want is to wake up wet. LOL!  Those floor savers are really thick...cost more than a tarp but they are really sturdy and don't have that irritating crinkling sound that the tarps have.   :Wink:

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## JPGreco

I don't know what our tents were rated when I was in scouts, but the two types we used could all close up their vents.
We had a BIG one, it slept like 6 people easy and you could stand up in it.  Had to be at least 7'x7'x7'.  Heavy duty fabric too, though we only used them when we drove to the site.
The other one we used was for hiking.  Slept 3, had a rain cover that also created a vestibule(sic) for a nice waterproof foyer.  Rain cover went almost all the way to the ground and the back of the tent had a 'window' that we could zip up a cover.  The front had a little vent that could be drawn closed.  Never used those in the cold, but they seemed good.  I want to get one like this to use myself.

Like RichJ said, the key is stopping heat loss.  All the tents I've used in scouts could close up nicely, so stayed pretty warm.  I borrowed one from a friend recently since I don't currently own a tent and it sucked.  Let all of the heat out and the floor material was super thin.  I would have been better off just taking a tarp and some rope.

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## hoosierarcher

> Or Alaska Tent and Tarp's "Arctic Oven" tent.
> 
> http://www.alaskatent.com/oven.html


I'd have to win the Powerball to be able to afford one of those of save my change in a big jars for so many years I'll be too old to want to camp in Winter.

You can increase a 3 Season tents effectiveness by putting a tarpaulin A frame over it with a 6 inch spacing between the roof of the tent and the underside of the A frame. The A frame will help keep the heat in and shed heavier snow than a 3 season tent can hold. Make the A frame long enough and you can have a covered "porch" for your tent.

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## NightShade

> Tents!..... You don't need no stinkin' tents! Just build yourself a leanto, insulate it, close off half of the open front, build a fire with reflector in front of (but not blocking) the open half and you will be toasty warm all night.


Gotta agree with Sarky here...
 A well constructed debris hut with THICK walls can work well also.   I'd really only use a tent in the winter if I was on a long hike and my shelter had to stay mobile with me... I find tents more useful in the summer... to keep the mosquitoes at bay.

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