# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Gardening >  Garden

## equus

Poco and I are going to have a garden next year but I am wondering how big should we have one?  We are going to try and can next year as well.  For a family of 4 how big of a garden do I need?  Thanks for the advice.

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## crashdive123

Equus - The size of your garden will really depend on several factors.  I know at your new place that you have quite a bit of room, so that may not be one of the factors.  One of the references I use in garden planning is a book titled Back To Basics.  In it, it states 


> A garden to supply a family of two adults and two school-age children with staples the year round should cover at least 2,500 square feet (50 by 50 feet or the equivalent).  However, a garden as small as 15 by 20 feet (300 square feet) can produce an amazing quantity of fresh vegetables.


That being said, you don't want to every plant more than you are willing to take care of.  If you can of dry some of your harvest, you can enjoy the bounty of your garden year round.

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## Rick

I would suggest starting small and increasing each year if that's something the two of you enjoy and want to do. You will need to consider the initial investment of seed and plants, and any amenities that need to be added to the soil. Remember, too, that maintaining a garden requires an ongoing commitment and starting out with a very large garden might overwhelm and discourage you because of the cost and time involved. 

You have some great fertilizer that you can add to a garden. The horse manure is really quite good. When I started my garden here I used a truck load as the base. 

Decide on what plants you would like to include in your garden and how many. Draw out a map with room for the plants to grow and be maintained. That will give you an idea of how large a garden you will have.

You should also take a sample of soil to your county extension office to be analyzed. They will tell you what, if anything, needs to be added and what kind of soil you are dealing with. To some degree, that will determine what plants you will grow and what kind of drainage (or lack of) your location has. For example, a very rocky soil makes growing carrots difficult. The rocks cause the carrots to split into fingers rather than one large root. There are ways around that but knowing what you are dealing with is important.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Poco and I are going to have a garden next year but I am wondering how big should we have one?  We are going to try and can next year as well.  For a family of 4 how big of a garden do I need?  Thanks for the advice.


 I've also been thinking about starting a garden, this spring.(I haven't had one, since I was a kid.)  I think I will start with a very small one. I just don't think I'm ready for a Rick, or Canid garden.

 Let us know how it does....and don't forget the pictures! :Innocent:

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## Rick

Actually, I don't have all that large of a garden. It's a roughly 20 x 30 raised bed. The fruits are planted around the house in flower bed fashion (strawberries, raspberries, currants) and I do have an area for my blackberries. But the main part of the garden is for my veggies. 

Another great book with a lot of useful information is Square Foot Gardening. You can get an amazing amount of food out of a very small area. 

http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

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## Chris

Is this your first garden? Why are you planting it?

Do you merely wish to grow your own food? Or is this for fun?

IF you merely wish to grow your own food, understand, there are two types of edible gardening.

1. Active gardening. Planting, an annual vegetable, weeding, fertilizing, harvesting, composting.

2. Passive gardening. Planting a raspberry bush, strawberry patch, blueberry bush, apple tree, walnut tree, asparagus patch, grape or kiwi vine, etc. These are all things that once established need little care, only harvesting of their bounty.

So the point Crash makes is applicable, don't plant more than what you can care for. But remember, some things take less care than others.  

Raspberry and Strawberry go best in raised beds because they spread, and because that is less stooping you need to do to harvest the strawberries (and keeps them less accessible to critters, a little bit). Raspberries also need support.  Blueberries can just be planted, in sun, in acidic soil. They may require netting when fruit comes to keep the birds off. Raspberries and strawberries will give you a harvest the first year, blueberries usually take a few, and of course the size will grow in subsequent years. You only need a few plants for raspberries and strawberries, they multiply rapidly. 

Grapes and hardy kiwi vines do best on a T bar trellis. They require pruning but otherwise both grow very vigorously without much need for extra water or fertilizer (that goes for all permenant edible plantings I'm talking about). Sun.

Asparagus do best in sun as well, and very loose soil, but take note. Plant them once and forget about moving them. Their roots can reach 15 feet deep. Don't harvest them the first year, let them get established.

Fruit and Nut trees generally need sun. I would get at most semidwarf varieties, even if you have a lot of land, managing a full size apple tree can be tough. My favorite source is starkbros.com Any fruit or nut tree is going to take 3-5 years to yield. 

As for the rest, understand, not everything grows everywhere.  I apparently can't grow good brussel sprouts here, I love them, but I tried growing a lot last year and they all came out bitter and it took them all summer to do so. Hot peppers also never perform well for me. So, to get the best yields, think about what grows good near you, talk to other gardeners or farmers, or lookup statistics.

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## equus

To answer your question Chris it is a little of both.  I want one to help support my family and 2 just for relaxation.  I really enjoyed helping my om with one when I was a kid. Here is another question should I start with plants or seeds?

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## your_comforting_company

starting with seeds is not that much more work unless you live in a colder climate where the young sprouts might be damaged by late frosts. Sprouts are also more costly, unless you sprout your own seeds indoors. My mom sprouts most of her plants then transplants in Libra to the garden after easter.
I prefer to use seeds myself. we have a really long growing season so I usually get 2 crops per summer from seeds.
Mine is 50x50 and it is a LOT of extra work in the summer when I'm a lot busier with work. It feeds my family of 5 + my grandma = 6  all year. 
spend the money to get the soil tested.. it's worth it. I think it's $40 here.
I keep referencing the book Gaia's Garden and it can tell you a lot about the "relaxation" garden, how to implement it so that it takes care of itself and adds beauty to your home, while providing food. I'm gonna be adding a lot of this type stuff over the summer to my own yard so maybe we can learn about that together  :Big Grin:

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## Chris

Also... seeds give you access to more variety, and if you sow directly in the ground (after frost has passed) I think you get healthier plants than if you did a transplant.

You can build a simple plastic hoophouse around a section of your garden to cheat nature a few weeks on the frost date.

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## Rick

Dottie, I rustled up a document for you. 

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/id/id128/id128.pdf

If you want to plant seeds for above ground crops like cucumbers, tomatoes or beans, then you want to plant them in small containers now. Otherwise, you can purchase them as plants from Walmart, Lowes or just about any other place. There are so many folks that sell plants it helps keep the price low but you can still sink $100 or more in plants if you go with a big garden. 

Here are the frost dates for Kentucky. 

http://www.victoryseeds.com/frost/ky.html

You don't want to put plants out (purchased or from seeds) until after the last frost. Just keep an eye on the weather for a week or so after your plants go in the ground and if frost is predicted you'll need to cover them up. 

Lettuce, radishes and spinach seeds can be planted in early February. I sew the seeds on Valentines Day every year. Even if there is snow on the ground. The seeds will be fine and as soon as the ground warms they will germinate.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

OK a couple of things I need to add I guess. I would also like to "augment" our Garden with some wild edibles that I could plant in various places around the farm. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what/where to plant those?  I know that I want blueberries for sure, but am a little doubtful/unsure to other fruits as some are poisonous to horses. Any suggestions to those? Plums,and Pears I am pretty sure are safe. I don't mind the horses eating some,as long as we get the majority of the harvest. I know that Cherries are out. Poisonous to horses.

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## Rick

I can't comment on anything around the horses, I don't know. 

Raspberries and blackberries will do very well where you live. Plant them in an area where you can easily access them. You can keep them mowed back so they don't overtake everything. 

You might also try cultivating Purslane. Easy to do. Easy to gather seeds, too. Great for salads. Incredibly hardy. You can break stems off and replant the stem and they will grow. Just darn hard to kill it.

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## hunter63

> OK a couple of things I need to add I guess. I would also like to "augment" our Garden with some wild edibles that I could plant in various places around the farm. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what/where to plant those?  I know that I want blueberries for sure, but am a little doubtful/unsure to other fruits as some are poisonous to horses. Any suggestions to those? Plums,and Pears I am pretty sure are safe. I don't mind the horses eating some,as long as we get the majority of the harvest. I know that Cherries are out. Poisonous to horses.


It's been my experience that transplanted "wild plants" don't do well.
They seem to like it where they are, or they wouldn't grow.
Ricks advice, (think it was Rick), Start Small is still the best.

You need to learn what grows where, in what type of soil, and what food you will actually use. (friend of mine does not like onions, so I asked him why he grows them, his answer, "just so I can throw them on the ground and watch them die"!)

I started small, got bigger, got out of control (weeds, wheel barrows full of the same kind of produce everyone else has) got frustrated, wasted a lot of produce.
Come to realize that tilling was a quick way to "erase your mistakes" and start over. Like erasing a black board.
Big into mulching now.

Now I go along with the "Less is more" theory.
Plant what you can take care of, (thinning weeding), harvest when ready, learn how to store excess (This is a big deal).

Some of my favorite references:
http://www.amazon.com/Ruth-Stout-No-.../dp/0878570004

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...11A3882CNSHG3M


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## Rick

Mulch is definitely your friend. More mulch = less weeds.

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## equus

What kind of mulch is the best.

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## crashdive123

Grass clippings work well.  If available - straw or pine needles too.

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## cabingirl

If you use  straw make sure it has no seed in it, I have used straw before that had seed in it and the seed came up and took over the plants.
I would also start off  with  a smaller garden the first year since you have a full time job,  a garden takes a lot of work, after the first year you wil  know if you can handle working a larger garden.
If you make the rows closer together you can plant more plants, plus when the plants spread out the will help to shade out weeds
I have found that it is best to start with seed, just wait untilt he ground warms and there is no danger of frost, then plant your seed. You may want to try starting your tomatoe plants inside, put them under light or in a South facing window.

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## hunter63

> What kind of mulch is the best.


I like free mulch.
I use:
newspapers (not the colored pages)
cardboard (brown)
Leaves (shredded or not) wet down to keep from flying around, they will mat up.
grass clippings-lots (fresh and not too deep)
Straw bales, pick up at curb after holiday season (people buy them for decoration, then throw them away)
old carpet, jute backed Lay out over leaves, cut hole where you want to plant.
black plastic,  some like it, I don't use it.
compost-dig in or side dress

Trick is to put everything down, then cover with what ever you have the most of, so it "matches".

Kinda goes back to a post by canid:
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=9848

As you move around, keep your eyes open.

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## Rick

You can start a mulch pile with anything green and brown. Leaves, grass clipping, etc. Just pile some up, pour a can of beer in it, toss some dirt on top (not a lot) and turn the whole thing every week. The dirt contains all the necessary microbes to break down the plant material and the beer has yeast that the microbes like. 

I have a grass catcher on my mower so I toss all my grass clipping in my garden. About the only weeds I have is when the @#$# ground squirrels bury the sunflower seeds put out for the birds or the corn set out for the squirrels.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

How about horse biscuits? Anyone ever use it for fertilizer? We have about 2 truckloads worth piled up outside the barn. I figured maybe we could spread it out in the garden plot then till it into the soil. It's not like we have a shortage of it.LOL We will ALWAYS have more!!!

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## crashdive123

> How about horse biscuits? Anyone ever use it for fertilizer? We have about 2 truckloads worth piled up outside the barn. I figured maybe we could spread it out in the garden plot then till it into the soil. It's not like we have a shortage of it.LOL We will ALWAYS have more!!!


Rick said that he did in post #3.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> The horse manure is really quite good. When I started my garden here I used a truck load as the base.


Woops! You are right Crash! How did I miss that? Oh that's right Dottie was talking to me and I got distracted....

Think he could use another truckload?? LOL

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## crashdive123

> Woops! You are right Crash! How did I miss that? Oh that's right Dottie was talking to me and I got distracted....


It might have been your new avatar.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> It might have been your new avatar.


WHAT!!?? you don't like my horse? (see my post in "absentee Ballot")

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## hunter63

How old is it?
If it's been there awhile, should work good tilled in. 
Very good amemet, has some nutrients, but mixed with bedding (organic material),helps build up "tilth" nad water retention.
If fresh, would be too "hot" need to let age or till in the fall, plant in the spring.
Don't spread too thick....6" or so then till.

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## ClayPick

You sure have a good start with all that horse manure. The only thing to watch out for would be fire fanging.  Some manure can break down real fast and loose a lot of its nutrients. Horse poop is one of them. If it has lots of bedding material mixed in and doesnt dry to fast it should be fine. Either way your soil will like it. Compost everything you can get your hands on! Heres the 12 rules for finding a good spot for a garden, good luck!
  Crop yield may be the best overall indicator of the condition of soil in a field. However, crop producers can check for signs of soil quality before harvest, says agronomist Denise McWilliams of the University of Minnesota extension service. She says the growing season is a good time to look at fields and evaluate soil according to 12 quality indicators.

"One indicator is the presence of earthworms," says McWilliams. "The best time to check for them is spring or fall, but you can also do it in the summer. Take a shovel full of earth from the top foot of soil and do a quick count. Ten earthworms per shovel-full are a good soil health indicator, according to the book 'Building Soils for Better Crops' from the Sustainable Agriculture Network. Birds following behind tillage in the spring looking for worms are also a good sign."

A second positive factor is organic matter, sometimes indicated by color. McWilliams says topsoil that is clearly defined and darker than the subsoil usually means excellent soil health. Organic residues on most of the soil surface are a third indicator, and the degree of subsurface compaction is a fourth.

The fifth quality indicator is soil tilth or mellowness, also called friability. If you can place wire flags into the ground easily down to the plow layer with only your fingers, soil tilth is good, says McWilliams.

If the soil crumbles well, is easily sliced and even spongy when you walk on it, you have a sixth indicator of quality. No gullies and no apparent soil runoff is a seventh factor. Eighth, the soil should hold water for long periods without signs of drought. Ninth, there should be no ponding or runoff from normal rainfall. Water should move steadily through the soil. A tenth indicator is crop color, which should be a healthy dark green throughout the season. Eleventh, the soil pH should fit the crop grown.

The twelfth soil quality indicator is nutrient holding capacity. Soil tests should show an upward trend in soil nutrients in relation to fertilizer applied and crop harvested. However, nutrient levels should not go into the "very high" category, says McWilliams.

"It's difficult for any piece of land to hit all 12 soil signs perfectly in one growing season," says McWilliams. "However, hitting as many as possible is a worthwhile goal."

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## hunter63

CP. What the heck is "fire fanging", never heard of it.

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## Rick

fire fanging is that gray colored look manure gets when it's older. At that point its decomposing. Old timers (older than me. Not many left) used to say manure was past its peak if it was gray in color. I think it's caused by heat build up in the manure. 

Also, for those that don't know tilth and friable are close to the same terms. They mean the soil has the right mixture of organic materials, sand and clay to produce good crops, manage water well and avoid compaction. 

Earth worms are wonderful for the garden. A++! Great little aerators and their castings also make great fertilizer. Keep adding any you find to the garden.

Crash - I had never thought about it until I saw CP's post but you might try adding some worms to one or two of your tomato buckets and see if it increases yield in them. They will allow the roots more access to O2.

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## hunter63

One thing to remember, new gardener........

You can really get bogged down in all the...This is the way to do it(s).
I will drive you crazy, pick a spot, a sunny preferred, dig it up, dump in any thing that will rot, "except meat".

Dig it up again, rake it out, mark out rows (or not)

Decide what you want to grow.......Then plant it.
Weed it. (a weed is any plant that's growing where you don't want it)
Sit back  and enjoy the fact you are doing something for your self, (something about getting yours hand in the dirt).

Pick it, eat it and make plans to do it again. 
You are now a gardener.

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## LowKey

Manure with bedding in it may be good, but if the bedding is sawdust or shavings you are gonna need nitrogen amendment. Straw bedding is better for composting.

I grow the size of my garden every year by getting a yard of fresh manure and a yard of screened loam and covering the new section of the yard-to-be-garden with about 6"-8" of the mix, with some compost thrown in. Do that in late August and September. The manure burns the grass as well as smothering it. In the spring I just till it all up and pull out the rocks (lots of glacial till in my area). First year planting is peas followed by beans. After that I rotate it. This year the garden is 15X30. Last year it was 15x24. This year I'm going to try a green-manure seeding in the fall.

Watch where you buy your plants. I didn't have a problem with tomato blossom-end rot until I got some Walmart plants. If you can, get them from a smaller local commercial grower that has clean greenhouses. That would be better than mass produced Walmart. Look around at all the plants they have, not just the ones you are going to buy. I've got one more year of not planting tomatoes and hoping the rot spores are gone. I even solarized the garden under clear plastic I salvaged from work last August to speed that up. We'll see.

Starting long-season plants from seed can be very tricky for the beginner. It's best to start out with things that will give you instant gratification just by planting them in the ground after the soil has warmed. Pole beans are fun for the kids and darn near indestructible. Bush beans give good yields and amend the soil with their nitrogen fixing roots. Don't pull them out, till them under. Radishes are plant em and stand back. Onions from sets or plants are fun, but depending on your soil how well they'll do. Zucchini or yellow squash and of course cucumbers for pickles. Those are all easy things. You might want to try to start your own tomatoes or other things from seed but don't be discouraged if at first you don't succeed. It is a real trick guessing your frost free date and working backwards. A Farmer's Almanac may help.

Peas, onions, any of the brassicas (broccoli, cauliflower, brussles sprouts), beets, radishes all can be set out or seeded as soon as you can work the ground. Peas have the uncanny ability to know when to sprout. Once you see them, your other cold tolerant seeds/plants can go in the ground. I'll put peas in before the frost is out of the ground, as soon as I can work the top 2 or 3 inches.

The trick with brassicas is to grow them during cool weather. Start them early indoors and put them out after the last killing frost (they can take a light frost). Or start them in mid-summer and get them in the ground for the cool days of autumn. They hate the heat. Brussel sprouts should be allowed at least one frost to get really sweet.

The other trick is not planting things that hate each other too close together. Check around the web on Companion Planting to get the basics.

The do's and don'ts will drive you crazy. The best advice you might get would be to talk to others in your area who have gardens and see what they grow. Local produce farms especially. Most towns these days have garden clubs. They aren't all little old ladies growing petunias.  :Smile:

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## Rick

Good stuff, Lowkey. Companion planting can have a big impact on a smaller garden. 

On the blossom end rot it's a combination of water uptake and calcium. I don't know anyone that isn't impacted by it at some time or other. Generally, when one gardener has it, everyone has it. Last season was especially bad around here. I've started adding lime to my tomato plants at time of planting to ensure they have adequate access to calcium. Then I try to maintain even watering so they have enough water to uptake the calcium and aren't deprived. Higher salts in the soil will increase blossom end rot because the salts block the uptake of the calcium. 

I've been pretty lucky. Generally only my tomatoes are affected. I've seen gardens that had it on tomatoes, peppers and even eggplant.

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## rwc1969

I had lots of problems with the stuff metioned above and started using Jerry Baker's gardening tonics and everything went away, bugs and all. my tomatos, squash and everything else rocked.

Epsom salt, cola, beer, mouthwash, dishsoap among other things. Conditons the soil, kills off molds and mildews, etc. and gives bugs the sheets so they don't come back. Even the groundhog quit messing around. You have to follow his directions and time frames, but the stuff really works good and is simple and cheap to use.

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## Rick

Tiny little high pitched bug conversation.

"Hey! You got your BOB."
"I'm leaving!"
"The garden? How come?"
"I got the sheets from all the stuff he's put in here."
"Well, whatcha gonna do?"
"I'm buggin' out."

(get it? Bugs buggin' out? I slay myself)

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## your_comforting_company

all the comedians out of work and here you go trying to be funny. lol.
that is pretty funny though.. i imagine stuff like this when weeding  :Big Grin:

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## hunter63

> You can start a mulch pile with anything green and brown. Leaves, grass clipping, etc. Just pile some up, pour a can of beer in it, toss some dirt on top (not a lot) and turn the whole thing every week. The dirt contains all the necessary microbes to break down the plant material and the beer has yeast that the microbes like. 
> 
> I have a grass catcher on my mower so I toss all my grass clipping in my garden. About the only weeds I have is when the @#$# ground squirrels bury the sunflower seeds put out for the birds or the corn set out for the squirrels.


One suggestion on a compost pile:
Quote Rick:
Just pile some up, pour a can of beer in
End quote
Beer abuse, beer abuse!
Strain it thru you kidneys first...............
Adds nitrogen.

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## ClayPick

Yup, it has to be strained through the kindeys first. :Smile:

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## Rick

I was actually referring to the cheap stuff. You know, that Ba Moui Ba or Tiger Beer stuff. Anyone have a can opener?

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## hunter63

> I was actually referring to the cheap stuff. You know, that Ba Moui Ba or Tiger Beer stuff. Anyone have a can opener?


O.K. I concede this one.......there is stuff out there that is pretty......
bad?

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Even some of the "Good stuff" is pretty bad. Just sayin'.... It makes me wonder about some of them. A "Good" beer that tastes like.... well I can't really say that here. Bad just seems so lame.

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## hunter63

> Bad just seems so lame.


I know, but for some reason the system won't let the truth get thru????

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## Trabitha

> Grass clippings work well.  If available - straw or pine needles too.


Thought I would add...
I use straw, but I'm cheap.  I go to the greenhouses and farms in the spring and they usually have a few bales that have been sitting around too long and got wet.  They can no longer use it, so most of the time I get it for free!  It's GREAT for the soil and it keeps the weeds down.  I also like the fact that it's a darker brown and not so golden.  I just find it more visually pleasing.  :Wink: 

Another way to get mulch is to call around to your local tree removals or landscapers.  They have to PAY someone to take their chipped branches and bark.  Many of them will let you have it for free or only pay to have it delivered if you don't have a way to do it yourself.  If you get them to deliver it in a hot sunny place, just let it sit for a summer in the heat, and you can use it in the fall and next year.  It's not perfect like some of that stuff you get from the store, but it works just as well and keeps things VERY tidy.

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## Chris

> Thought I would add...
> I use straw, but I'm cheap.  I go to the greenhouses and farms in the spring and they usually have a few bales that have been sitting around too long and got wet.  They can no longer use it, so most of the time I get it for free!  It's GREAT for the soil and it keeps the weeds down.  I also like the fact that it's a darker brown and not so golden.  I just find it more visually pleasing. 
> 
> Another way to get mulch is to call around to your local tree removals or landscapers.  They have to PAY someone to take their chipped branches and bark.  Many of them will let you have it for free or only pay to have it delivered if you don't have a way to do it yourself.  If you get them to deliver it in a hot sunny place, just let it sit for a summer in the heat, and you can use it in the fall and next year.  It's not perfect like some of that stuff you get from the store, but it works just as well and keeps things VERY tidy.


An important note to let it sit in the sun for a year. 

A lot of times tree people are called in because a tree is dead, dying, diseased, or infested, and you don't want to invite any of that into your garden. So if you do take random chippings, compost them first.

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## Rick

The town I live in has it's own chipper and allows you to take the resulting mulch for free. As much as you want. Just back your truck in and take it. Most folks use it to mulch around flower beds.

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## hunter63

Wood chips in the veggies use up too much nitrogen tring to break down.
use for paths, and around trees.

One advantage of mulch that hasn't been brought up, is keeping the dogs feet from getting muddy.
This is important to keep from getting killed, both me and the dogs.

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## LowKey

^yup. I wouldn't use chippings in the garden for that reason. The other problem I've had with raw chippings is termites. Don't use them on your foundation plantings.

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## Rick

That's a great point, LowKey. I actually switch to rubberized mulch last year for around the house. I had started finding small termite nests in the wood mulch so that had to go.

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## Trabitha

> An important note to let it sit in the sun for a year. 
> 
> A lot of times tree people are called in because a tree is dead, dying, diseased, or infested, and you don't want to invite any of that into your garden. So if you do take random chippings, compost them first.


Good point.  I use the guy right down the road though...and he's always good about telling me where he got the trees and their condition.  All depends on the people you use.  :Wink:   Bugs that could become an infestation or brought in from outer areas are always an issue too, so be careful with that. 

Oh, my bad.  I have a LARGE perennial garden too, so I should have specified that wood chips should never go into a veggie garden.  :Wink:   Thanks for that add-on fellas.  :Big Grin:  

I swear by straw and/or hay for the veggie garden though...

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## Trabitha

> That's a great point, LowKey. I actually switch to rubberized mulch last year for around the house. I had started finding small termite nests in the wood mulch so that had to go.


What do you think of the rubber chips, Rick?  Does it have a smell?  Does it LOOK like rubber?  My biggest fear is using it and then having my garden look like a trash dump...ya know?

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## Rick

The rubber mulch I use is recycled tire with 99.9% no metal. They are dyed red and have a ten year no color fade warranty. There is a smell when you first put it down but it dissipates very quickly, within a couple of days. I've had people ask me where I bought my mulch and when I tell them it's rubber they are amazed. They can be standing next to it and don't realize it's rubber. I was really hesitant at first so I did a lot in research on it. The fact that it's recycled tires was a plus. It's a way to reuse some refuse and it looks nice so that, of course, was a plus. 

It doesn't float away like wood mulch did with a heavy rain. It pretty much stays put and it doesn't compress as bad as wood mulch. You won't have the problem with termites or earwigs like you do with wood mulch either. 

I'm pretty pleased with it.

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## doug1980

So does anyone can then?  Seems to me if you plan on using the garden to feed you thoughout the year than canning is a must.  My wife and I plan on planting a garden when we move back to IN, small one, and she would like to learn how to can.  Any good info about the whole process?

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## Rick

Doug - There are several good threads on canning. About the best web site I can offer up is: 

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/index.html

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## doug1980

Thanks Rick.  I might have to pick your brain when it gets closer to planting.  Find out what grows best in IN and all that.  Only thing I know how to grow is corn and soybeans.  That's about all the farming experience I have...well that and livestock.  :Smile:

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## Rick

No problem. I'll help any way I can. I'm sure Nell will be a great resource too.

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## doug1980

Last garden I had we planted watermelon and pumpkin too close to each other I guess and ended up with purple watermelons that didn't taste good at all.  Pumkins never did come up.  Of course my dad planted a huge garden that ended up being way too much work for us to maintain.  So starting a smaller garden and slowly enlarging it every year is the best way in my opinion.

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## Rick

You'll be hard pressed to grow watermelons with any luck in Indiana unless you're near the river bottoms or you have very sandy soil. We have so much clay around here that melons don't do well. You can grow them but they are always small and take forever to make fruit.

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## Batch

Watermelons cost like $5 now. That is crazy!

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## LowKey

I use crushed stone in the foundation plantings. We can get a good brown variety of stone in 1" to 2" chunks. Put it down about 2" thick on top of a weed barrier around the house and it stays nice looking all year. And it doesn't blow away when using the leaf blower.

I do a bunch of canning._ Putting Foods By_ has a couple of excellent waterbath pickle recipes. The bigger Ball canning book is full of weird stuff but their jelly and jams are useful. Also Carla Emery's_ Encyclopedia of Country Living_. Hoping for a pressure canner for next fall. I want one with a weight rather than a gauge and they are damn expensive.

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## your_comforting_company

the watermelons bring to mind some things that should NOT be planted together. I've been told that squash and cucumbers will cross pollinate making Gerkhins, and pumpkins and watermelons will make similar unusable fruits.

I have not tested this, I just heeded the warnings of the old timers who told me. I'm probably wrong about the specifics of the plant pairings, but you get the gist. I'm terrible with searching on the net for such things, so better luck to you for finding the info!!!

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## LowKey

Squash and cukes are actually companion plants. Two different species not likely to cross pollinate.
Potatoes near cukes can be disasterous.
Not sure about watermelon and pumpkins. I hate watermelon so have never grown it, and smaller winter squash can do anything a pumpkin can do in less space.

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## Chris

> So does anyone can then?  Seems to me if you plan on using the garden to feed you thoughout the year than canning is a must.  My wife and I plan on planting a garden when we move back to IN, small one, and she would like to learn how to can.  Any good info about the whole process?


Ironically enough I blogged this last night.

http://www.gardeningblog.net/2010/01...w-to-make-jam/

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## Chris

> the watermelons bring to mind some things that should NOT be planted together. I've been told that squash and cucumbers will cross pollinate making Gerkhins, and pumpkins and watermelons will make similar unusable fruits.
> 
> I have not tested this, I just heeded the warnings of the old timers who told me. I'm probably wrong about the specifics of the plant pairings, but you get the gist. I'm terrible with searching on the net for such things, so better luck to you for finding the info!!!


That isn't how plant biology works really.

The fruit will ALWAYS be based on the genes of the mother plant.

The seeds inside the fruit will be based on the mother and the father.

If the cross polination of cukes with zukes was possible you probably wouldn't be able to save or do anything to the seeds, but the flesh of the fruits shouldn't taste any different.

Think of how fruit trees work.

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## Chris

> Wood chips in the veggies use up too much nitrogen tring to break down.
> use for paths, and around trees.
> 
> One advantage of mulch that hasn't been brought up, is keeping the dogs feet from getting muddy.
> This is important to keep from getting killed, both me and the dogs.


You can always toss a bag of bone meal in when you're using wood mulch. It should rectify the nitrogen problem. It is what I always do.

That or I guess, pee all over it.

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## Rick

Yeah, YCC, I'll second what Chris said on the cross pollination. My winter squash and cukes were so inter mingled last year you had to really look to see what you were picking. Squash was squash and cukes were cukes.

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## equus

Thanks guys.  I am learning a lot.

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## your_comforting_company

maybe the old folks were wrong and were just doing what I did and I said I wouldn't... repeating something without trying it first (at least I did say I hadn't tried it lol). I had been warned and didn't want to ruin a crop for the sake of experimenting.
I was under the impression that some of them were in the same family (squash flowers and vines look almost exactly like pumpkin flowers and vines) and could create a sort of "hyrbid".

I'll have no fear this year of planting whatever I want. Thanks for clearing that up guys. I learned something today. It's a good day  :Wink:

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## Rick

Who knows what they might have encountered. And perhaps that's what they had been taught and had never questioned it. Sort of like tomatoes are poisonous.

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## crashdive123

> Sort of like tomatoes are poisonous.


 :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:

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## Chris

> maybe the old folks were wrong and were just doing what I did and I said I wouldn't... repeating something without trying it first (at least I did say I hadn't tried it lol). I had been warned and didn't want to ruin a crop for the sake of experimenting.
> I was under the impression that some of them were in the same family (squash flowers and vines look almost exactly like pumpkin flowers and vines) and could create a sort of "hyrbid".
> 
> I'll have no fear this year of planting whatever I want. Thanks for clearing that up guys. I learned something today. It's a good day


They would create a hybrid... the seeds...

Think of people... when a man loves a woman... er well... you know how things happen.

But in anycase, the baby is half dad, and half mom, but the mom's genetics don't change through the act of carrying the baby. 

In a plant the fruit is still part of the mother plant, and has the mother plant's DNA, the only part that contains DNA from the father are the seeds. So, this would certainly be true for a crop where you eat the seeds (nuts, etc) but when you're eating the flesh of the fruit, it isn't the case. 

Many people save seeds though to replant next year, and in the case of cross polination, the seeds will not be like the mother, or the father, but could be something better (or worse). 

But for eating, and not seed savings, it is not a concern.

This might explain it better:

http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/vege...-cucumbers.htm

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