# General > General Guns & Ammo >  Rethinking the "Survival Firearm" For Alaska (Yes, one more time)

## Sourdough

One of the problems for Alaska is the Damn BEARS. For me even in a full'out E&E I would expect more problems from Bears than Humans. And starvation would be a even greater danger than the Bears. So my quest has been to find a single firearm, not a rifle and meat'getter pistol combo, but one single firearm, that is light, short, uses small compact cartridges. Versatile enough for food gathering, and bear & moose attacks.

So I am considering (For Me, not selling the idea) the Ruger 77/44 Bolt Action w/4 round magazine. Yes it would suck in a gunfight but I see that for me as behind #1 food procurement, #2 bear & moose protection, #3 ease of carry (light and short) #4 smallish cartridge, and finally #5 defense from humans.

The .44 Magnum could have 320 hard cast loads for walk'around & Moose and Bear harvest or defense. CCI shotshells for birds on the wing. And mostly carry .44 special "cowboy" loads for general food procurement. The Ruger 77/44 weighs 5.25 pounds and is 38.5 inches long. With a 1.5 to 5X Leupold with quick release rings (the scope and rings would not live on the firearm but in the pack) the .44 Magnum w/pointed bullets would be effective to about 200 yards for caribou, bear, moose & if necessary human targets. http://ruger.com/products/rotaryMaga...eets/7408.html

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## Winter

I'm curious as to the bolt action selection over a lever action .44 mag?

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## Sourdough

> I'm curious as to the bolt action selection over a lever action .44 mag?


I like the rotary magazine, and the integral scope rings. But I have always liked Bolt Actions for their ease of field stripping. Which is my main issue with lever actions, they are not inclined to field stripping.

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## Winter

Ahhh, makes sense.

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## Sourdough

77/44 review:    http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-77-44.htm

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Seriously, if it were me.... I would go with a lever action in .300 Savage (Model 99 or 1899) or .45-70 (Winchester, Marlin and Henry)...and if you need to sub caliber down for other game, use a sub cal insert...... mcace.com for the inserts and ACE is in Alaska.

You are in BIG bear country, not just Black Bear but Kodiak and Grizz (black bear, .44mag loaded up is ok) and I have had customers tell me in horror how their .44mag (out of almost any rifle/pistol) barely even pissed off a Brown Bear regardless of ammo used, loaded up or off the shelf. Granted the bear may die later, but that does not help you in the moment.  

I really like Ruger .44 products, they are great........but where you are at you have to think LARGE. Yes, .44 is large, but basically too small for YOUR intended purpose. I just tend to be a careful gun. 

This only in my humble opinion............... bows and smiles..... the below info is from handloads.com

44 Magnum, 310 gr 
Bullet Powder Weight Powder Velocity OAL Primer Source 
LFP  23.0 gr h-110  1,710 fps 1.7"  Win LP  guest 
4.5" groups @ 100 yards out of marlin 1894,these gas checked bullets poured from lee moulds.

Email author: paparoy523 
See all of paparoy523's loads  
LBT-WFN  18.0 gr H-4227  Unknown crimp"  Fed LPM  guest 
This is an accurate and extremely deadly large deer load (and God only knows what else)in a M-94 Winchester, and it is amazingly quiet. It’s a grain or so under maximum according to Lyman, even further below according to Hodgdon! It compresses the Oregon Trail, True Shot bullet lightly. I exited one through both shoulders of a big Mulie buck at 50 yards as if he were made out of luke-warm butter. Accurate enough to hit apples at 100 yards. No leading. Recoil in the rifle is in the tolerance range of Brownie Scouts, (or not quite an alley-cat on the animal scale!)

--------------------------------------------

300 Savage, 180 gr 
Bullet Powder Weight Powder Velocity OAL Primer Source 
FS  38.8 gr Win 748  2,350 fps     Winchester 
Suggested starting load: 34.9 gr

Pressure: 45,600 PSI


SP  40.0 gr Win 748  2,375 fps     Winchester 
Suggested starting load: 36.0 gr

Pressure: 43,000 CUP


SP  44.5 gr Win 760  2,410 fps     Winchester 
Suggested starting load: 40.1 gr

Pressure: 41,000 CUP


--------------------------------------

45-70, 350 gr 
Bullet Powder Weight Powder Velocity OAL Primer Source 
JSP  60.0 gr Accurate AA2520  2,000 fps 2.550"  Win LR  guest 
JSP from Hornady, very strong load, accurate, and it will kick some. Shot from a Marlin 1895 new model. The brass is once fired PMC, crimped with Lee Crimp die. MAKE SURE that you work up to this load, it is close to max.

Email author: cutshaw3 
See all of cutshaw3's loads  
LFP  55.0 gr H4198  2,200 fps 2.55"  Win LR  guest 
Great general purpose hunting load that is equal to or slightly better than the Hornady standard load for the new 450 Marlin. I lube my cast bullets with Apache Blue in the grooves then roll then in Lee Liquid Alox for extra protection. I use this in my Marlin 1895SS and in it the recoil is very gentle, (this is relative, if you’ve been shooting nothing but .223’s all your life, then this will feel like it is breaking your shoulder!) My rifle has been lightened up as well by slimming down that massive forstock and even slimming some on the butt stock so they match. It now feels much more like a Winchester 1894, except the balance is still not there due to the short magazine tube, but it is still much improved over the factory original, and the 20 hand rubbed coats of Tung oil on the Wlanut stock looks great!

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## klkak

> One of the problems for Alaska is the Damn BEARS. For me even in a full'out E&E I would expect more problems from Bears than Humans. And starvation would be a even greater danger than the Bears. So my quest has been to find a single firearm, not a rifle and meat'getter pistol combo, but one single firearm, that is light, short, uses small compact cartridges. Versatile enough for food gathering, and bear & moose attacks.
> 
> So I am considering (For Me, not selling the idea) the Ruger 77/44 Bolt Action w/4 round magazine. Yes it would suck in a gunfight but I see that for me as behind #1 food procurement, #2 bear & moose protection, #3 ease of carry (light and short) #4 smallish cartridge, and finally #5 defense from humans.
> 
> The .44 Magnum could have 320 hard cast loads for walk'around & Moose and Bear harvest or defense. CCI shotshells for birds on the wing. And mostly carry .44 special "cowboy" loads for general food procurement. The Ruger 77/44 weighs 5.25 pounds and is 38.5 inches long. With a 1.5 to 5X Leupold with quick release rings (the scope and rings would not live on the firearm but in the pack) the .44 Magnum w/pointed bullets would be effective to about 200 yards for caribou, bear, moose & if necessary human targets. http://ruger.com/products/rotaryMaga...eets/7408.html


I don't know how many times I've almost talked myself into buying a 77/44.  You are going to make me spend money and upset my wife!

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## Pal334

I readily admit no experience in bear defense etc.  But I guess since you are "voting" with your safety, that is good enough for me. In my experience, 4 hits with the .44 (or almost anything else) certainly will put you in a "good place"in a defense from humans scenario. Many(not all) folks with the high capacity "black guns" seem to  want to rely on putting out large volumes (spray and pray) . And as you know, practice, practice comfort with the weapon and confidence are a good part of the game.
I can recall an incident  during which a couple of good guys got jumped by bad guys a mile or so away from where I was. We heard the distinctive sound of three AKs being fired in a high volume manner. During the altercation,  I heard three seperate and distinct single shots (M16 sounding) . At the last M16 shot, there was no more firing.  Moral of the story, the bad guys fired over 100 rounds, good guys three and party was over.

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## Winter

Accuracy is the key to victory,,lol.

I feel pretty confident an AR will stop a bear with a couple well placed shots.

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## crashdive123

Does the rifle also need to withstand the rigors of a "walk about gun" that you talked about a few years ago?

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## Sourdough

> Does the rifle also need to withstand the rigors of a "walk about gun" that you talked about a few years ago?


YES, as that would be it's primary application.

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## Sourdough

> Accuracy is the key to victory,,lol.
> 
> I feel pretty confident an AR will stop a bear with a couple well placed shots.


I fully agree............which is why my walk'about firearm for the last (3) Three years has been a Rock River AR-15 in 6.8 SPC It is fine for defense agenst human and Grizzly bear attack, but they are horrable to carry and heavy, the magazine and hand grip stick out 90* angle. And they are less than perfect for harvesting small birds.

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## Sourdough

> I don't know how many times I've almost talked myself into buying a 77/44.  You are going to make me spend money and upset my wife!


Kevin: We might be able to cut a deal if we ordered two at the same time. I am going to be selling about 40  firearms, and some dealers want my consignment business.

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## Rick

Looks like somebody found out where all the canoes flip.

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## klkak

> Accuracy is the key to victory,,lol.
> 
> I feel pretty confident an AR will stop a bear with a couple well placed shots.


The problem is, you rarely get a follow up shot on an attacking bear.

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## hunter63

Is there some reason that you seem to limiting your self to hand gun type cartridges?
Just curious..

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## KhonHd

BTW, they do make a 47/70 hand gun...  Just sayin'

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## Sourdough

> Is there some reason that you seem to limiting your self to hand gun type cartridges?
> Just curious..


My first choice (if not for the grizzly Bears) would be the .22 Magnum. The reason for the handgun cartridges is small and compact, versatile as in 150 gr. .44special loads to shotshells, to 320 gr. Core bond. So Question: what would you'all recommendation be.......? But you "MUST" stay with-in the criteria layed out in the first post.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Now yer scarrin me deeply SD LOL

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## hunter63

> My first choice (if not for the grizzly Bears) would be the .22 Magnum. The reason for the handgun cartridges is small and compact, versatile as in 150 gr. .44special loads to shotshells, to 320 gr. Core bond. So Question: what would you'all recommendation be.......? But you "MUST" stay with-in the criteria layed out in the first post.


OK, like I said I was just curious.

I personally have passed "need" a long time ago, so "want" drives a lot of my reasoning.

I do not have a problem with the quest for the "perfect" system for what ever your needs.

I do like the 77/44 as well, as it's short (works well in my box stand) light, .44 and various configuration of same basic loads wouldn't have magizine and chambering issues with a bolt gun.

Was looking at them serious a while back, then acquired the Rem Model 600 .35 Rem, which fits my needs.

I'll be quiet now.....carry on.

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## Sourdough

> Now yer scarrin me deeply SD LOL


So what would you suggest, but it MUST fit the criteria in the first post. I am willing to reconsider my choice.

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## klkak

> My first choice (if not for the grizzly Bears) would be the .22 Magnum. The reason for the handgun cartridges is small and compact, versatile as in 150 gr. .44special loads to shotshells, to 320 gr. Core bond. So Question: what would you'all recommendation be.......? But you "MUST" stay with-in the criteria layed out in the first post.


I think the direction you're heading with the .44 mag carbine is true. My Smith 629 is always with me and quite often so is my Win M-94 trapper .44 mag.

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## Sourdough

Kevin, I think it is the "BEST" Compromise. Not perfect for any of my criteria, but the Best compromise.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Seriously, fitting your criteria.....AND including Grizz/Kodiak bears (for typical black bears it will be fine in .44mag loded up) I cannot suggest anything off the shelf. Anything I suggest would be custom. Your suggestion of the 77/44 is honestly the best in the criteria... BUT............ the criteria does not take into effect certain conditions. 

I sincerely do not suggest going to the bush where there are Moose and Bear abundant such as in your location with a .44 mag BOLT rifle...... really really really I do not. I am NOT saying that a .44 out of x.x inch rifle barrel will NOT take a bear or moose down, sure they will, but I believe it would need to be with multiple shots. It is the need for follow up shots that concern me in such a low power'd round for such high powered animals in such a high stressed scenario. 

IF, .44 mag is your hearts desire, I would make it at least an auto loader like the Ruger .44 carbine or the lever... if you need to shoot .44 specials, bird shot as well as round ball and wadcutter rounds, you can hand insert those into the chamber. You will have immediate follow up shots on your MAX rounds in the auto or lever, if in fact you even have a chance at a follow up shot. Yes, I know some folks that can operate a bolt as fast as an auto, lever or pump.....they are young, in perfect health and have practiced with about 60,000 rounds and are sponsered by the big gun companies. 

I honestly question the .44mag all together for your 1 gun scenario. If it is the only gun you have available, well thats it, that is what you are stuck with, but you do have choices in this scenario and future purchase.  

I still believe in going larger caliber with higher down range energy and use sub caliber inserts for the game getting and such, especially if you are dead set on a bolt action. I have never enjoyed screwing around in going minmal gun when maximum truly is what is needed where animals are concerned. 

If you would consider a custom bolt action, and still using a pistol cartridge, then at least go to .50ae or .500S&W mag and load them up MAX with a connical hard cast from Meister Bullet Company or some company just as good and be dang sure of your shot placement. You can load those down as well, especially out of a bolt, dang near down to .50 cal muzzle loading velocities and energy. There are 100's of custom bolt action makers out there. I can suggest a few with two of them being right there in Alaska. 

All in all, it is your gun, your time, your life and possible death.......it will be your decision. 

Also.... IN FAVOR of a TWO gun scenario (rifle & pistol) what is to say you will have the correct rounds in the magazine or chamber of the rifle that you need at the time you need them. Shooting for small dear or game getting and the bear or moose scenario pops up (very possible for the bear if blood is in the air already from the game), your change out time for mags, rounds or even doing it single load shots..........is under medium body/mental stress to say the least and more likely than not, HIGH stress. 


All of this IMHO

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## hunter63

If mixing loads is in order, it always seems that you have the wrong one loaded at the time........Murphy's law.

I used to carry ariund my H&R SS in a broke open position, with bird shot in the bore, and a 12 ga slug between my fingers.
See a grouse, action closes, hammer is being pulled back as the shot gun is being raised to firing position....bang.
If deer is sighted, slide out #8's bird shot, in goes slug and same deal.

Did not work as well as I thought..........I'm thinking a SXS double barrel would have been more useful.

My suggestion would be add a .450 upper to the AR
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Bushm...h-All+Products

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## Old GI

C'mon SD; just don't put a door on the outhouse and you shouldn't have a problem.

Speaking of lever guns:  Winchester 71 (.348 Win). (If you ever put a door on the outhouse).

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Hunter63, for the longest time I carried a Kriegoff drilling. 16ga-Kriegoff (longer shot shell made of brass) x 8mm mauser x 6.63 Mannlicher, it covered everything for me, birds, small game and large game, was a super fast chamber and lock as well as smooth glassy trigger (single trigger, multi-set). Sadly, I traded it for a 1984 Vett LOL

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## OhioGrizzLapp

* Runs with hair on fire at the suggestion of an EBR upgrade....*looks at hunter63

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## Sourdough

> Seriously, fitting your criteria.....
> I honestly question the .44mag all together for your 1 gun scenario. If it is the only gun you have available, well thats it, that is what you are stuck with, but you do have choices in this scenario and future purchase.


You do understand that I own "About" 70 firearms. Including several .375 Holland & Holland rifles, and some .458 Winchester Magnum Rifles, which I used extensively when Guiding on Kodiak Island, Afognak Island, Alaska Peninsula, in my 34 years as a professional hunter. I have nine AR-15's mostly in 6.8 SPC cartridge. I also have several Freedom Arms "Custom" built revolvers in .454 Casull cartridge, including one with a 10" Barrel & a Leupold 2.5 to 8X Extended Eye Relief scope. I have built 19 custom rifles, mostly in .458 Win. Mag. some as light as 6 1/4 pounds.

My thinking is, If I at 64 years of age I am going to hump 20 miles a day with an escape and evasion pack of say 45 to 50 pounds I would be inclined to not carry a rifle & pistol both as most revolvers weigh three pounds empty. I feel I would be better served with three more pounds of ammo.

My vision (or Goal) is to be able to exit my cabin with one pack and one firearm, and have NO food resupplied, No human contact for at least six months. With enough fishing gear, the proper firearm, and my 41 years guiding all over Alaska, I feel it is doable, not enjoyable, but doable.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I bow to your experience....as I do not have that much guiding behind me, especially not in my future.  

I too have a collection and have built a few customs..... BUT..... NONE of those exclaimations are IN your criteria;-) In your criteria: Bolt, Pistol cartridge, short gun, light..... custom 50ae or .500S&W....not the .44mag. 

(ducks first) 50lb pack is way too much for old men like us LOL drop 10lbs from the pack and carry the side arm too....* ducks and weaves.....But at least with a revolver you would have 6 immediate shots...immediate and right now...compared at best (2) shots from a bolt action within the 5-7 seconds a Bear or Moose will charge you. * zigs and zags around the camp, dodging the frozen paint balls and marbles being shot.........    

Like I said, your choices....... I would be safe rather than sorry

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## Sourdough

> 50lb pack is way too much for old men like us LOL drop 10lbs from the pack and carry the side arm too....* ducks and weaves.....But at least with a revolver you would have 6 immediate shots...immediate and right now...compared at best (2) shots from a bolt action within the 5-7 seconds a Bear or Moose will charge you. * zigs and zags around the camp, dodging the frozen paint balls and marbles being shot.........    
> 
> Like I said, your choices....... I would be safe rather than sorry


I already live more remote than 99.999% of peoples Bug'out land. I am in the heart of the Chugach National Forest. Question: If you really think about it, if you had to live exclusively on what you went into the wilderness with, with no resupply of anything. Would you really want two firearms or would you wish you had (5) Five more pounds of ammo or supplies. I wrestle with that question. 

If I was too take two firearms, I would most likely cut the stock off my Anschutz .22 Magnum for a meat gun, and take the Freedom Arms .454 Casull with the 5 1/2" Barrel for protection.

Thanks for engaging in the conversation.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I love honest to goodness chat/conversation with someone that knows what they are talking about or knows what they want....and I believe you do...all too often I get people in the shop here that read a headline and try to converse the subject in full. If you were here, we would be chatting with Coffee and a just made by the GF Praline Pie..... as we both tinker with guns and talk. 

Supplies no.... the way I have my pack structured (as well as my plans) and for MY environment (this is an really important point, MY environment) and plans, the immediate supplies will last about 3 weeks, enough time to gather more supplies naturally. I cannot speak for AK, but where I am, I am confident that my pack at 14 lbs plus a pistol and a rifle (one on the hip and one carried), both in .357mag along with sub cal inserts + ammo (included in the 14 lbs.) will get me through indefinately only because my 5 state area truly has what I need naturally to survive in all 4 seasons. If I had to add one more item, it would be a second CS-SRK knife....I have 3 inserts for the .357, 22lr, 22mag, 327fed, they will fit both guns. I have taken much game with the 327fed....as well as the .22's. After the ammo is gone (about a year, maybe a lil more,) I would have by then created other means to gather game and by then cultivated a series of small gardens, tools, woods craft....with perennial and annual stuff. I have nothing in Ohio, PA, IN, W.VA & KY that the .357 and family can't handle effectivly.  
Ammo maybe and most likely will decide on a bit more, but I would want compatabilty in firearms, if I wanted sub cal ability, I would take very light weight inserts for my main gun and their ammo or for that matter both guns, since they are the same caliber. I have found the inserts truly are game getters, I have proven that over the last 10 years. I do NOT have to worry about Moose, Brown bear (we have smaller black bears) or Caribou. We have decent sized Bucks, smaller doe and all kinds of ground and tree dwelling small game as well as upland and seasonal birds. 

In all, the reason I say 50ae or 500S&W is the larger CD or cross density. The extra .060 in CD provides for almost a 23% in DRE and especially at short ranges over the .44mag. I feel you either need a really low CD like in .30 something cal bullets travelling very fast or the biggest bullet or large CD traveling at pistol velocity. 

In your scenario.... it depends on a large CD in pistol calibers due to the animals you have there. To me, that is a .500 bullet loaded as hot as it can go. 

So for your scenario, I will stick to my guns (no pun intended) the bolt in 500 S&W, 18" barrel, 5 shot on a mauser action and since you can make the gun yourself.... it is a win-win. If I had to go to .44mag, then it would be the Ruger Carbine 44 semi auto as it is short, a pistol cartridge, fast, durable and faster follow up shots.

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## Sourdough

> If I had to go to .44mag, then it would be the Ruger Carbine 44 semi auto as it is short, a pistol cartridge, fast, durable and faster follow up shots.


The rifle you talk about (Ruger 99/44) was my original choice, but they are hard to find around here. When I went looking is when I saw the 77/44 at 5.25 pounds and said, "WOW". What 
I would like is for Ruger to offer the 99/44 in 327 Federal. And I have always wished for a "NEW" cartridge. A .25 Caliber Rimfire an 1/8" longer than the .22 Magnum cartridge.

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## Sourdough

http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/ya/down...ean=0&inline=1

I hope this works........This was just sent to me from SJJ.

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## Rick

Nope. It fails at the .com even.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

ahhhhhh Guess what... I have two of the Ruger auto carbines, 1 new in the box and 1 used but in very good condition with ruger rings, ruger case with 3 magazines which also fit the 96/44 and the 77/44. if you would like details, let me know. I have a Ruger 96/44 Lever International (full Manlicher style stock) 50th Anniversary as well, new in the box but the dang thing is expensive, I know I would not buy it for the price and that is just being honest. I checked the specs and all three rugers, they can take max CUP in .44mag, there is no difference in CUP between pistols and rifles, max is max for the cartridge. 

ALTHOUGH I still disagree with the .44mag for your scenario LOL 

LOL those wishes can come true... but not from a major maker. I am sure at some point, someone is going to offer a Camp type rifle in .327 fed mag, it is a very popular round here.

On the 25 RF, I have an Martini low wall in .22.mag here..... nuttin to bore it out and re-rifle, the issue would be ammo, but there is a place out West that will hand make RF ammo to your specs. If you give me some dimensions of what you are thinking about (I know you said 1/8 longer than a .22mag), the issue there would be rim size, I'm sure they can make them though. They also invented a reloadable rimfire case they have patented.... the outer ring of the rim is replacable with new rims that snap on with side primer holes that align when snapped on, I am not sure if they can do it for smaller than .32, I can ask though. The firing pin may need to be altered so it does not hit the cartridge inner rim. Would the bullet be plated or jacketed, are you thinking the same bullets as the .25acp or centerfire rifle bullets? What grain bullet? Custom Mold ? 

My friend has a .25acp AR-7 he made, that round out of a rifle barrel is actually pretty good. 

I literally fell for the 327 ... that is one heck of a round. I have 5 inserts for my 30-30 that it shoots perfect out of and is a true perfect fit for that rifle, very accurate and super cheap to reload. The inserts work in the 94 action real well as they are the same size as real 30-30 rounds and the  bore is actually .32. I also have a S&W pistol in the same 327....that thing puts out almost as much muzzle flash at night as the .357. I have not hunted with them yet as I just got em last year.  I have shot them at the range though.

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## randyt

would it be practical, feasible, or even a decent idea to chamber a 44 mag bolt action to .444. The .444 most likely couldn't be loaded into the magazine but most likely could be hand fed into the chamber. With the 444 a guy could carry some rounds and have added zip if needed. I realize it would depend on a lot of factors. one comes to mind is the .444 simply a long 44 mag also would the action take the additional pressures. and with the longer chamber how would the accuracy be with a 44 mag shot out of a .444 chamber.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Not really, the 77/44 is a short throw action and yes of course the magazine. Would be better off taking a single barrel rifle like a handi rifle and making a 444 out of it. I have however made .410 shot shells out of 444 shells. The 77/44 is not a large rifle by any means.  

444 data
444 Marlin, 300 gr 
Bullet Powder Weight Powder Velocity OAL Primer Source 
LBT-LFN  54.0 gr H322  2,305 fps   CCI SP  guest 
Zips right thru railroad ties I stood up 200yds away. Sighted 3.5" high @ 100yards, the drop figure, by actual careful shooting (measuring 10 shots), is between 16 and 18" low at 300 yds and about 46" at 400.... comparing very favorably with a 30-06/220gr except that it hits about twice as hard.

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## randyt

it figures, I'm not familiar with the rugar 77/44. Was there a company making .444 on SMLE actions? I seen a few in 45-70 but I thought there was some in .444 too.

have you shot 44 mag in a .444? if so how did accuracy fare? 

those handy rifles are a handy rifle but I would be reluctant to use a single shot for a working rifle.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

There is a SMLE in .410 shotgun used by the India Police, 2 1/2" shell. The 45-70 ons were made by a company out in Cali, rebarreled  and a strength band of steel in front of the chamber. I do not think there were any 444's. 

Many people do use those singles as their working and truck guns because they can switch from shotgun to hi power rifle to .22 in about 20 seconds. They are low cost, comes with all 3 barrels, case etc..... The one I have here is a 12ga/.223-5.56/.22mag

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## hunter63

> * Runs with hair on fire at the suggestion of an EBR upgrade....*looks at hunter63


LOL, Well thats what I would do.
Sorry about the hair....good thing you can still run.

Sounds to me like you do have selection of possible bear stoppers, and have been dealing with all conditions for a long time....The quest for the perfect combination seems to be never ending, but fun.

I would just buy the bolt gun Ruger 77/44 and let us know how you like it.........

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## hunter63

> ............Many people do use those singles as their working and truck guns because they can switch from shotgun to hi power rifle to .22 in about 20 seconds. They are low cost, comes with all 3 barrels, case etc..... The one I have here is a 12ga/.223-5.56/.22mag


I have 10 barrels for one of my Handi's, allows me to shoot calibers that I wouldn't buy a new gun for, but would still like to have on.

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## BH51

Survival?..Alaska?..Bear!?......Would I be out of line If'n I used a sawed-off 835 Mossberg
12 ga. with a magazine full of slugs, with pistal grip, sling and a pocket full of heavy load
6's for other stuff?...I know it would be heavy but "heck" I would seek no questionable
comprimise if'n I was unable to out'run one of ya'll...and besides, I figure I would be losing
weight down both britch's legs to compensate within the moment.........................BH51..

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## Sourdough

> I would just buy the bolt gun Ruger 77/44 and let us know how you like it.........


A man should never let his mind be clouded by silly concepts like "NEED". "WANT" is a adequate requirement to justify the procurement of a new firearm...... :Ohmy:

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## hunter63

> A man should never let his mind be clouded by silly concepts like "NEED". "WANT" is a adequate requirement to justify the procurement of a new firearm......


That is correct, Sir, I agree, espcecially when you invoke the 50 year old rule.....First 50 years of your life, you try to play nice, by the rules, be sensible, because you are expected to..........The second 50 years, have fun as best as you can.........

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## OhioGrizzLapp

BH: I am not sold on a shotgun against a bear or a moose. You need penetraition and hitting vital or the brain. If a guns projectile will not penetrait a Threat Level III vest, it will not penetrait a Grizz or Kodiak.... black bear MAYBE. The last thing you want to do is make something madder than it all ready is. 

Hunter: I am a believer in the handi rifle...... good platform, good range of calibers and even can be made into some really awesome stuff. Can be scoped or otherwise upgraded sights. Lots of pontential for them.

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## BH51

Penetration with a 12 ga slug?....perhaps not...but it offers alot of knock'down
and tho it wouldn't penetrate a bullet proof vest it just might gentlely persuade
a large animal running for you at 35 mph to slow down a bit if not re'evaluate
the situation altogether....I know not the difference between mad and madder
to a bear........Hey, that's just me................................................  ....BH51..

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## Sourdough

> Penetration with a 12 ga slug?....perhaps not...but it offers alot of knock'down
> and tho it wouldn't penetrate a bullet proof vest it just might gentlely persuade
> a large animal running for you at 35 mph to slow down a bit if not re'evaluate
> the situation altogether....I know not the difference between mad and madder
> to a bear........Hey, that's just me................................................  ....BH51..


Did you see post #29........??? All shotgun shells would be to large to carry enough for six months.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Madder simply means when it comes to Bear....BIG Bear I mean.... they just eat cha instead of toying around with you and rolling you around and leaving for a bit. The bears skin is NOT like ours, we react to blunt force trauma. A bear just gets pissed off when it is not killed or at least disabled. The blunt force to a bear is like a push, they do not bruise etc.... I would much rather go against a bear with a one shot .375H&H out of a TC Contender and a decent bowie knife than 6 shots out of a 12 ga. It is basically the same thing as trying to subdue a drunk...they can take an aweful lot and still get up and hurt you. A bear is built to take punishment or what we think of as punishment. When they are pissed off and their adrenalin is flowing, there is NOTHING so fearful than a bear...standing...roaring and growling and extending themselves outward, making themselves bigger, claws extended apart and out. Slapping rocks together at this moment or using a tear fogger on them and I do say a 12 ga....is NOT going to shy them away from you, it is at that moment, it is kill or be killed....no second shot. I honestly hate to preach undergunning a bear, especially to someone like SD who well knows a bears capabilities, but anyone who does either has a lot of brass ones or is generally uninformed and looking for a thrill of their last breath..... this is just my own humble opinion....and from experience.

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## Rick

Glad to see you back, sjj.

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## randyt

Those handi rifles are nice rigs. I have five of them and 3 different barrels. I also have a savage 219 in 22 k hornet. Even though they are nice rifles none of them would be my first choice for a working rifle. I want a repeater, by repeater I don't necessarily mean a semi auto. With that said if all I had was a handi rifle I would do as always, do the best with the cards that were dealt me.

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## BH51

SD?...sorry to say, I failed to recall the revised criteria of post #29 as I got as far as post #21 
which sent me back to post #1 and I was merely stateing what (I) would use on a short stint
of survival in the wilds of Alaska...Personally I wouldn't hike 20 miles a day in one day much less
repeatedly over the course of 6 months at 24 years of age much less 64...

OhioGrizz'.......the differerance between mad & madder relative to  mauled or eaten' just
didn't occur to me as I lack the experience...there are no bears in my area...either scenerio
does not paint a pretty picture.....I am hopeful you'll share with us your experiences with bear
sometimes...interesting.......I wonder tho, how long would it take for a bear to get to someone
in a state of mad....seconds, my quess...maybe buckshot or #4's would be better....taking it's
eyes out might be prefered.....How about that?.....still assuming the bear issue stems from an
attack in a survival situation rather than intentionally hunting....Penetration is merely luck of 
the draw if vitals are missed given seconds to react, in my world...I've seen the reaction of 
whitetail to high-speed projectiles quite a bit in my day....even in vitals, they can move quite
a distance in a few seconds time....a far cry from bear I know but observed non the less...BH51

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## aflineman

Sourdough, you ever shot .44 shotshells out of a rifle? From what I have played with them in a .357mag rifle, you might not hit much. The rifling seems to spin the shot to much to get a tight pattern. I have done the trick of a roundball over some shot. Seemed to work better for me, but still not even to .410 patterns. Works OK for snakes, but I would not count on it for birds. At the ranges I got, I was more accurate (and lucky) with a "bird stick" thrown by hand.

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## BH51

I would concur with aflineman from my experience as well but with 45 cal. muzzler..
seems the rifled barrel generates too much "flyers" of shot and creates caos within
a signifcant shot pattern...not practical, IMO............................................BH5  1

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## Sourdough

> Sourdough, you ever shot .44 shotshells out of a rifle?


NO........I have not, only in a revolver, and the results were fair. A 1 in 20 twist in a 4" barrel would result in a 1/5 rotation if my math is correct. It would be a very interesting research project to test the pattern on 4" & 10" & 16" and 20" barrels.

HEY KEVIN, you have a 4" and a 16"..........Buddy. We should agree on a distance, say 25 feet.....?

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## Rick

Pics or it didn't happen......just sayin'.

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## hunter63

I have shot home made loads in both the Ruger Old Army .45 BP, and the Navy Colt .36 cal with #8 and #4 , pattern pretty much blown @ about 15 ft.
Fiber/cardboard wads over powder, wax plugs over shot.


My NEF/H&R .45 lc/.410 barrel has a screw in choke for the bird shot, seems the idea is to straighten out the shot, haven't shot it much.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Over an 8" barrel that is rifled, you will get an elongated donut hole. The only way to stop it is add a screw on choke tube, much like the TC Contender does with the .410 barrel.

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## klkak

> NO........I have not, only in a revolver, and the results were fair. A 1 in 20 twist in a 4" barrel would result in a 1/5 rotation if my math is correct. It would be a very interesting research project to test the pattern on 4" & 10" & 16" and 20" barrels.
> 
> HEY KEVIN, you have a 4" and a 16"..........Buddy. We should agree on a distance, say 25 feet.....?


Yes I shoot a 4" 629 and a 16" Win 94. I don't use factory shot shells. In my opinion the shot is to small. The only ones I've used were hand loads using #6 shot. I used them in my 629 with very good results. I've knocked a couple spruce hens out of the air with them. I don't have any right now. I'd have to get more to do a test.

I'm inclined to believe that a 1 in 20 twist is a 1 in 20 twist whether it's in a 4" or 30".

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## klkak

> BH: *I am not sold on a shotgun against a bear or a moose. You need penetration and hitting vital or the brain. If a guns projectile will not penetrate a Threat Level III vest, it will not penetrate a Grizz or Kodiak*.... black bear MAYBE.


Ok, I missed this post. If you haven't done it, don't offer an opinion on the issue. Defer to people who have the experience.

I have shot a charging brown bear. Not a real big one. It measured just under 9 feet. I was using my 870 and Brenneke Black Magic slugs. The slug entered the front of the bears skull just above eye level, blew out the back of the skull. Re-entered the bear at the hump and smashed its spine. Continued through the bears body and exited the rump. Over an ounce of lead moving at only about 1400fps. That bear died and died really quick. (I shared the complete story in another post some time ago)

The 12g shotgun and the .44 magnum are the most carried firearms in Alaska for bear protection.

Why? Because they work. Big, heavy, slow moving bullets with flat fronts are what work.

If you are going hunting its a different story. Then the .338 Winchester is the most carried gun. Unless you are a PH, and they usually carry something bigger.

A .223 will penetrate a level III vest, does that make it a bear stopper? Not even close!!!

By the way. When I shot that bear I had my shotgun at the high ready position. If I had not, I would not have had time to get off the shot. You rarely ever have time for a follow up on a charge. It's one shot or nothing. It just happens to fast.

_My 870 is carried with Breeneke Black Magic slugs
Both my .44's are carried with Buffalo Bore 305's_

_My 870 wears an 18" smooth bore with rifle sights and factory magazine tube w/o plug._

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## Sourdough

Project Update: I have been walking the Ruger 44/77 regulary for about a month now. It is very easy to carry @ 5.9 pounds. I have removed the recoil pad & cut 1/2" off the LOP (That is Length of Pull for you'all Non-firearm people) & after seeing the size of the cavity inside the composit stock, I decided to replace the recoil pad with a "Slip-on" pad.

This will give emergency access to some very light survival supplies with-in the butt-stock. I am thinking Fishing gear, steel wool, waterproof matches, etc.

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## Pal334

I may have over looked it, but are you carrying more than one of those 4 round magazines? Or do you even see the need to have more than one (obviously you are carrying the ammunition)?

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## Sourdough

> I may have over looked it, but are you carrying more than one of those 4 round magazines? Or do you even see the need to have more than one (obviously you are carrying the ammunition)?


I sometimes drop two or even three extra cartridges into my pocket. It is just Bear Insurance for now.

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## klkak

When I'm walking about, I don't carry a lot of ammo with me either. I usually have six in the tube and an extra eight on the butt stock.
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## shooter_250

quick question Sourdough...have you considered round availability?...being meagerly military minded..I this in terms of the commonality of rounds in my location..for example...in some countries, while I love the .45 (cause they don't make a .46), the availabilty of 9mm ammo decides my carry handgun..

just thinkin in my mind..

God Bless

Lee

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## klkak

The .44 Magnum is very common in Alaska!

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## Sourdough

> quick question Sourdough...have you considered round availability?...being meagerly military minded..I this in terms of the commonality of rounds in my location..for example...in some countries, while I love the .45 (cause they don't make a .46), the availabilty of 9mm ammo decides my carry handgun..
> 
> just thinkin in my mind..
> 
> God Bless
> 
> Lee



My cure is own lots of ammo. I feel that U.S. Dollars will be worthless, and ten .22LR cartridges will buy a steak and potato dinner. (I just ordered 3,000 rounds of .45 acp it is sitting in Anchorage, waiting pick-up).

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## Rick

It'll cost you six rounds of .44 to pay for the gas to pick up the .45.

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## Sourdough

> It'll cost you six rounds of .44 to pay for the gas to pick up the .45.


Cost me $105.00 for diesel fuel to go round trip into Anchorage.

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## Rick

You should invest in a boat. You could cut across the Turnigain and be there in about half the time.

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## Sourdough

> You should invest in a boat. You could cut across the Turnigain and be there in about half the time.


Or die trying...............

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## shooter_250

Yep, I gotta agree with your way of think there Sour,  I can't help but think having both an AK as well as an AR laying around  would be a good idea, and I'll tell you why.   Hopefully I can do this without sounding too paranoid.  Keep in mind I'm not familiar with Alaska or where you are Sour, I think one should consider were the economic collapse of the U.S. to occur, we (the U.S.) would be subject to invasion by either or both China and Russia...see what I'm getting at Sour.  On the other hand Sir, I greatly respect you and I enjoy reading you thoughts.  I am not in your situation so I know you know what is best for you, I am only offering friendly thoughts and Sir, I hope you take them the way they are intended.

God Bless

Lee

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## Rick

Ooh. So close. You were this close to not sounding paranoid. Well, you did ask. 

How many countries invaded Russia when the economy collapsed there?

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## shooter_250

LMAO...(---) this close Rick?...LMAO...I understand that,,,keep in mind I am rather meagerly military minded...Look for the worse thing, anything less is gravy...

so close..LOL

Lee

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## kyratshooter

Sourdough, do you realize that your "walking around rifle" falls into the concept of Col. Cooper's "scout rifle".

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## Sourdough

> Sourdough, do you realize that your "walking around rifle" falls into the concept of Col. Cooper's "scout rifle".


Yes, Kind of. I have never embraced his forward scout scope system. In fact I prefer no scope on rifles.

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## hunter63

> Yep, I gotta agree with your way of think there Sour,  I can't help but think having both an AK as well as an AR laying around  would be a good idea, and I'll tell you why.   Hopefully I can do this without sounding too paranoid.  Keep in mind I'm not familiar with Alaska or where you are Sour, I think one should consider were the economic collapse of the U.S. to occur, we (the U.S.) would be subject to invasion by either or both China and Russia...see what I'm getting at Sour.  On the other hand Sir, I greatly respect you and I enjoy reading you thoughts.  I am not in your situation so I know you know what is best for you, I am only offering friendly thoughts and Sir, I hope you take them the way they are intended.
> God Bless
> 
> Lee


I question that, why invade when they already own so much stuff?
It would like invading your own garage..........
All they have to do is wait for the "sale"............

Now stocking up on "precious metals"  (ammo, brass, lead) is a wise investment.........

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## kyratshooter

> Yes, Kind of. I have never embraced his forward scout scope system. In fact I prefer no scope on rifles.


His origional concept allowed iron sights or conventional scope placement.  He never considered the placement or presence of the scope critical.  It was the 3 meter length, 6.6 pound weight and adequitely powered cartridge that were primary for a "walking around scout rifle".

It seems to never cross anyones mind that if the U.S. is invaded or comes under widespread insurrection our ownership of military hardware will not be relevent.  As in any situation where force of arms is in progress, there will be plenty of usable hardware lying around waiting to be removed from the cold dead hands that brought it.

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## Rick

And some of our members own cannons. I'm not sure how fast he can pull it or reload it but once he touches off the powder God help ya.

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## Highhawk1948

Marlin Guide Gun of your choice in 45-70.   love .41s and .44s but in big bear country I want bigger.  Good luck.



Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth. Teddy R.

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