# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Making Stuff >  How to Grow Axe Heads onto a Handle

## erunkiswldrnssurvival

How to Grow Axe Heads onto a handle by splitting a branch or pressing between two branches that will grow into each other. This is the ancient method and also the best for solid connections from wood to stone. The wood swells as it grows encapsulating objets inside of it.

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An Axe Head positioned in just the right spot where the wood can converge and fuse,an exelent situation occurs. An Axe Head fused in this manner will not loosen or release from the handle that encapsulsates it.

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Once positioned the tree can take as long as 8 to 10 years to grow closed the gaps and produce a perfect work of nature.The end product is well worth the effort, awsome,exelent and forgotten by man, this skill of woodlore,I struggle to make a comeback.


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## crashdive123

That's very interesting, but I got to say that if I need and axe now, waiting 8 to 10 years for the handle to form around the head........well let's just say my honey do list will not wait that long.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> That's very interesting, but I got to say that if I need and axe now, waiting 8 to 10 years for the handle to form around the head........well let's just say my honey do list will not wait that long.


When this was being done, your Grandfather would have started five axes for you, you would start axes for your grand children ,Your elders would have provided that for you. Thanks for bringing up that point. nessesary said. Something that good realy is worth waiting that long for. the wood fuses tight like concrete grabs rebar.

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## Pict

OK, this might be basic but if you're axe head is growing into the tree how do you cut down the tree to get it back?  Mac

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## crashdive123

With the saw that you grew out of crystals.

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## tacmedic

I had never thought of something like that.  Very cool.  I am curious if you have any sources that cite this type of thing being done, or if it is something that you thought of?

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## Gray Wolf

I think it is something that he thought of while testing some psychedelic mushrooms!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Gray Wolf

But seriously:




> This is the ancient method


Who's ancient method????  :Confused: 




> and also the best for solid connections from wood to stone.


Where did you get that fact from????  :Confused:

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## Pict

I've heard of this method and seen it illustrated in books before.  It is a very old method.  It always struck me as odd given the long time it would take to handle the axe compared to the relatively short lifespan of a stone axehead.Mac

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## crashdive123

....but it kind of makes sense in times long, long ago.  Erunkiswldrnssurvival - care to give a bit more detailed background, or do you want us to keep guessing?

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## bulrush

> OK, this might be basic but if you're axe head is growing into the tree how do you cut down the tree to get it back?  Mac


You make your first axe using another method, then make this higher quality axe later. Then when this "grown" axe is done, you cut off the branch it was grown on.

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## klkak

I may have said this in another thread. The old ways are kinda cool but the reason we don't use them any more is we as humans have progressed and developed more efficient and durable tools. It's good that folks are posting ways of making tools from natural materials but come on. Eight years to make an axe. That would do no good if your life were hanging in the balance and you needed a tool right now. Now if someone on here with the knowledge were to illustrate how to make a field expedient stone axe. We could all benefit from it. IMHO!

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## crashdive123

Another thing to consider about growing your axe handle around your axe.  Knap the edge before you place it in the tree.  It would really suck big time to mess up putting the edge on after 10 years :EEK!:  and have to start all over again. :Mad:

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> I had never thought of something like that.  Very cool.  I am curious if you have any sources that cite this type of thing being done, or if it is something that you thought of?


The Cherokee used this and other techniques. it takes time to see results mastering the skill, would take a lifetime.

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## Jericho117

It's a neat little trick, but with survival purposes it would simply be a consumption of materials and tools, not to mention the time it would take. But I think it's amazing I never knew you could do that.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> ....but it kind of makes sense in times long, long ago.  Erunkiswldrnssurvival - care to give a bit more detailed background, or do you want us to keep guessing?


heres a few , Because of the stone axes used for this purpose chip tiny pieces every time the blade is struck the axe maintains a sharp edge.Second the Axes of this Genera were used primarily for de-boneing Mammoths and other Bison or Caribu like animals. The axe lasts for years. Pressure was thier primary wood "Cutting" method. either split or snapped wood was not cut with Axes. So you see to partly Cherish the animal and to do the most important work of divideing up the hunt , The axes of this nature were a functioning tool of cerimony and tradition, and it helps demonstrate that nature helped to teach them to survive.

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## zaebra

i wonder, could this technique be used with a modern metal axe head in a similar fashion?

if you greased up the axe head so that it would be resistant to moisture and then fed a tree through the hole, in a year or two (a blink of the eye compared to this one!), the tree would have swelled to the point where it fits.  i'd think this would only work with round-hole axes (like splitting axes), not oval-holed ones (like hatchets).  what do you guys think?

still, very cool technique, if a little impractical.  i can see the spiritual-ish value of such a technique more than the practical value, as someone would appreciate a gift far more if you said "i've been growing this for the last ten years" instead of "here, this took me half an hour to whittle".  as a tradition, it has merit.  as a survival tool, not so much.

just my .02!

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## crashdive123

Weeeeeeeeeeeeell, was it the Cherokee or the caveman?

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## trax

Or Cherokee cavemen?

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## Pict

> You make your first axe using another method, then make this higher quality axe later. Then when this "grown" axe is done, you cut off the branch it was grown on.


Seriously, you've got enough time there to train a beaver.  I was just kidding around.  

I have heard of this method though.  I recall a book on American Indians (maybe it was primitive man) when I was a kid that illustrated it but just with drawings. Mac

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## crashdive123

> Or Cherokee cavemen?


Caveokee or Chermen?

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Caveokee or Chermen?


As this method of wood working was first developed before the Croix Magnus,
60,000 years ago the Cave man or Cherokee were not first to use it.

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## Gray Wolf

Alrighty then.

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## Ole WV Coot

Very common around here, only it's a big cut nail in a black walnut. Seems black walnut were used a lot for boundary markers and nails were driven in to point to the next marker. I hit one ripping a 3' section about 18" diameter. I ruined a chain but learned to run a detector over all black walnut. Seems like a lot of barbed wire was nailed to trees also. I have seen a rock grown around but sure wasn't a tool.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

Black walnut is a suitable wood to use thanks for that.

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## Pict

Here you go.  I actually found a review of the book I had seen as a kid...

*Weapons: A Pictorial history*

Page 16 in the review.

Mac

*Edited to add: * This is the book for sure that I had seen as a kid.  The edition being sold in the review was published in 1999, but the first edition was published in 1954.  The author died in 1973.  In my head it had become infused with another similar book on Indians that I would look at every time I had gone to the school library.  The other book was "Indians", also by Edwin Tunis.  Formative stuff, weapons and bushcraft, I'm still interested.

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## Pict

Back when I worked for our township parks department we had a huge limb come down from an ancient tree.  About six feet off the ground, the limb simply fell off the trunk.  Where it broke off there was a large stone that had become entrapped in the trunk as the tree grew around it.  The stone is still visible fused into the trunk.  Mac

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## canid

i can see a definite value in this for creating art pieces.

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## Fletcher

So if I start one now.............I'll be 71 when its ready.....I think I'll go to my local hardware store!!!!

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Here you go.  I actually found a review of the book I had seen as a kid...
> 
> *Weapons: A Pictorial history*
> 
> Page 16 in the review.
> 
> Mac
> 
> *Edited to add: * This is the book for sure that I had seen as a kid.  The edition being sold in the review was published in 1999, but the first edition was published in 1954.  The author died in 1973.  In my head it had become infused with another similar book on Indians that I would look at every time I had gone to the school library.  The other book was "Indians", also by Edwin Tunis.  Formative stuff, weapons and bushcraft, I'm still interested.


Thanks for that! exelent! I be sure to add that to my favorits. I know tha tecnology is out there, And I hope to be able to experiment with as much as I can.

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## hard county

What would be the best tree to do this with? The first ones that come to mind that are native around here are osage orange, oak, hickory, locust and cedar (to use the cedar I think you would have to wait for the hard wood to grow to the axe head.)
My interests would be in the metal axe head slid over the tree, the other way seems like it would just take to long.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> What would be the best tree to do this with? The first ones that come to mind that are native around here are osage orange, oak, hickory, locust and cedar (to use the cedar I think you would have to wait for the hard wood to grow to the axe head.)
> My interests would be in the metal axe head slid over the tree, the other way seems like it would just take to long.


Rhododendron,laurel, myrtle,hophormbeam ,and possibly many others.

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## Gray Wolf

> Once positioned the tree can take as long as 8 to 10 years to grow closed the gaps and produce a perfect work of nature.


It doesn't take that long (only 2-3 years), and you don't make it the way you described. 

The book Mac linked to describes "making a split into a growing tree limb, then forcing the flint head into it. The tree seeking to heal its wound fill the split tightly around the stone......"  

That makes much more sense, not as colorful a story as yours though.

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## tsitenha

not a kind word to say to erunkiswldrnssurvival, even though he is right.

there's always more than 1 way to skin a cat

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I intend to try every suggested method and examine those results, thanks grey wolf. I am not trying to elaborate,I seek only understanding.

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## Gray Wolf

> not a kind word to say to erunkiswldrnssurvival, even though he is right.


tsitenha, no malice has ever been intended. I would rather error on the side of historical facts, than folklore or a misinterpretation of how something's done to attain the correct results. What makes this site, is the credibility of the information given by it's members.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> tsitenha, no malice has ever been intended. I would rather error on the side of historical facts, than folklore or a misinterpretation of how something's done to attain the correct results. What makes this site, is the credibility of the information given by it's members.


Thats why we test. well known practices then;are long forgotten now so even things already known must be re-explored instead of remembered.

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## sh4d0wm4573ri7

no comment @ all

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## hard county

> Rhododendron,laurel, myrtle,hophormbeam ,and possibly many others.


Would hickory not be better? Most axe handles are made out of hickory.

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## Pict

I imagine the hard part about this method is setting it up in a place that not only has the right type of wood but will also be left alone for several years.  I also imagine if done incorrectly that it could very well kill the tree through disease.

This is something I just might try, though I have no stone axe heads.  I leave the country for four years at a time.  I could set one of these up and then return and get it in 2014 (provided the Myans were wrong).  On a small protected woodlot you could make up some interesting pieces.

The main drawback to this method is that it will take years to get it right. Mac

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Would hickory not be better? Most axe handles are made out of hickory.


Though there are many species that could be sitable,Sour Wood is a good choice,or Honey Sucle vine, and mabe crepe myrtle or other rhododendron like trees, Hickory, I would like to experiment with. 

And the trees have to be left undisturbed a period of years so that they can grow and mature into the finished product.

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## tsitenha

I think one of the major stumbling blocks we have on this thread is the time factor, we are too wrapped up by today's standards of compressed time perception. We don't want it now, we want yesterday.
Peoples that live in a wilderness or agrarian setting, would measure time in a scale that would include seasons, work tithes, generations, years even centuries to conclude project. 
Look at the cathedrals in Europe they were developed over many years or generations as expenses/skilled labor, seasonal tasks would allow.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> I think one of the major stumbling blocks we have on this thread is the time factor, we are too wrapped up by today's standards of compressed time perception. We don't want it now, we want yesterday.
> Peoples that live in a wilderness or agrarian setting, would measure time in a scale that would include seasons, work tithes, generations, years even centuries to conclude project. 
> Look at the cathedrals in Europe they were developed over many years or generations as expenses/skilled labor, seasonal tasks would allow.


Perfcectly said,tsitenha. Thank you, an integeral notion to co-exist with nature and to plan for a way of life that Gives to your decendants long after you are no longer able to.

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## Ole WV Coot

Just wondering if you've tried a vine on top of a live 1" tree, with the head wrapped with a living vine. Between the tree growth and the vine shouldn't take but a season or two to do almost the same thing. Maybe just good for one good THUNK but who knows?

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Just wondering if you've tried a vine on top of a live 1" tree, with the head wrapped with a living vine. Between the tree growth and the vine shouldn't take but a season or two to do almost the same thing. Maybe just good for one good THUNK but who knows?


Exelent suggestion! Thats what I need opinions for, I am going to try that, that could be just the right thing. the actual process hasnt been used for so long nobody exactly remembers the "Perfect" way to make one. Thanks for that Old Coot

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## yukon55

sitll its a ROCK haha jk, it looks cool

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I just recently went to the Florida Keys, down there grows a tree called the Strangler Fig.That tree is a perfect candidate for encapsulating foriegn objects.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> I just recently went to the Florida Keys, down there grows a tree called the Strangler Fig.That tree is a perfect candidate for encapsulating foriegn objects.


This is a 1000 Plus year old Strangler Fig tree On Lignumvitae key,

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## Gray Wolf

> This is a 1000 Plus year old Strangler Fig tree On Lignumvitae key


Where do you get these numbers??? I've been to Lignumvitae Key, which is now called Lignumvitae Key State Botanical Park. Only 50 people are allowed on the Key at the same time, 25 on the trail and 25 in the clearing.

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## klkak

> Where do you get these numbers??? I've been to Lignumvitae Key, which is now called Lignumvitae Key State Botanical Park. Only 50 people are allowed on the Key at the same time, 25 on the trail and 25 in the clearing.


Yahoo and Google have nothing on the age of the tree's on Lignumvitae and nothing on the maximum age of the Florida strangler fig. I even went to Lignumvitae Key State Botanical Park web-site. Nothing!

I tried to call the park but they are closed today. I'll try again tomorrow!

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## klkak

tsitenha, runkis and anyone else,

No body doubts that you can make an axe handle in this fashion. But this web site by its title is about wilderness survival. Going by the spirit of this section of the forum, yes it is a good post. An interesting piece of history. However we do not live in the stone age any more and it is highly unlikely that we ever will again.

If you want to suggest passing something down through the generations. Try this.

"I have a steel axe head outside that belonged to my Great grandfather who was a logger and then to his son my Grandfather who was also a logger. Now I own it. I have replace the handle probably a dozen times. Twice with handles I made myself. A few years from now I will give this axe to my grandson and I will teach him how to use it and care for it as I was taught, including how to make an axe handle. If my grandson honors this tradition, this axe will be passed on to his son or grandson".

Back in the stone age growing an axe handle may have been a good idea and a tradition passed down through the generations. Today steel rules! Teach your sons the old ways, to remember and honor them. But also teach them the new ways. Buy a high quality steel axe. Teach your sons how to care for it so that it can be passed down. And when a better way comes the cycle starts all over.

Its good to remember the passed so we don't end up repeating it. But by our nature we forge ahead into the future.

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## crashdive123

> This is a 1000 Plus year old Strangler Fig tree On Lignumvitae key,
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Looks like a Banyan Tree to me.

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## tsitenha

Never said to bypass the steel ax, how did you know my grandfather and father were loggers (in winter)? By the way 2 man cross cut saws in my grandfather's youth and chain saws in my fathers. any axes used for work would be nubbings now
As in many post FVR amongst others reminds us to look beyond and relinquish the "need" to rely on "steel" for an example. Knowing other ways may just come in handy, knapping and such.
I know that we are not your of tea with our posts.... ignore us if you must.

I do pass on knowledge of steel as well as stone and wood if it comes to that.

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## Gray Wolf

Here are pictures of the Florida Strangler Fig. They get their name from growing around other trees, and wind up strangling them.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> tsitenha, runkis and anyone else,
> 
> No body doubts that you can make an axe handle in this fashion. But this web site by its title is about wilderness survival. Going by the spirit of this section of the forum, yes it is a good post. An interesting piece of history. However we do not live in the stone age any more and it is highly unlikely that we ever will again.
> 
> If you want to suggest passing something down through the generations. Try this.
> 
> "I have a steel axe head outside that belonged to my Great grandfather who was a logger and then to his son my Grandfather who was also a logger. Now I own it. I have replace the handle probably a dozen times. Twice with handles I made myself. A few years from now I will give this axe to my grandson and I will teach him how to use it and care for it as I was taught, including how to make an axe handle. If my grandson honors this tradition, this axe will be passed on to his son or grandson".
> 
> Back in the stone age growing an axe handle may have been a good idea and a tradition passed down through the generations. Today steel rules! Teach your sons the old ways, to remember and honor them. But also teach them the new ways. Buy a high quality steel axe. Teach your sons how to care for it so that it can be passed down. And when a better way comes the cycle starts all over.
> ...


I am telling you about wilderness survival, you think you know alot , but you dont post anything except insults, I think for this web site you could conduct 
yourself a little better , and also post something educational for a change.

The practices i am trying to describe are the methods of survival of those who came before us , some of us survivalists are primmitive techies, for some reason you speak out against it , your just misinformed. my methods are genuine practice.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Here are pictures of the Florida Strangler Fig. They get their name from growing around other trees, and wind up strangling them.


Exelent pics, thanks for posting those.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Yahoo and Google have nothing on the age of the tree's on Lignumvitae and nothing on the maximum age of the Florida strangler fig. I even went to Lignumvitae Key State Botanical Park web-site. Nothing!
> 
> I tried to call the park but they are closed today. I'll try again tomorrow!


Well I went to lignumvitae Key personaly and took the photo that i posted. the age of the tree isnt publicized but they do offer information on the 1919 building of a house. And thank you for trying to call, the people there are very helpful and courtious.

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## Gray Wolf

> Well I went to lignumvitae Key personaly and took the photo that i posted. the age of the tree isnt publicized but they do offer information on the 1919 building of a house.


So again, how do you come up with these dates you state???  :Confused: 
How did you come up with that tree being *911 years older* than that house??  :Confused: 

As I posted earlier, 



> I've been to Lignumvitae Key, which is now called Lignumvitae Key State Botanical Park. Only 50 people are allowed on the Key at the same time, 25 on the trail and 25 in the clearing.


The State Park workers don't date anything before the 1919 house, from when the Matheson family of Miami owned the island. They're are a couple of other buildings on the island also. The records of the island ownership itself only dates to 1843.

Also, sorry but the picture you posted doesn't look like the Florida Strangler Fig. That why I posted the pictures of 3 different Florida Strangler Figs.

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## klkak

> I am telling you about wilderness survival, you think you know alto , but you dint post anything except insults, I think for this web site you could conduct 
> yourself a little better , and also post something educational for a change.
> 
> The practices i am trying to describe are the methods of survival of those who came before us , some of us survivalists are primitive teaches, for some reason you speak out against it , your just misinformed. my methods are genuine practice.


You are not talking about *wilderness survival*. You are talking about an antiquated practice. In your own words;



> The practices i am trying to describe are the methods of survival of those who came before us.


If you were in a true life or death "survival situation", growing an axe handle is not an option. 

There are folks on here that are into running around with stone tipped spears and stone Axe's. Or black powder guns and tomahawks. If thats you, then good for you. Some of that technology is very useful for survival. Growing an axe handle isn't one of them.

I have made post other than insults. Some of them are even educational. But unlike a good deal of other folks. I am reading the multitude of information that is already here. In that way I don't post something that has already been discussed. If and when I decide to make another educational contribution. It will be something new to the forum I hope, as well as throughly tested. Maybe even documented with video, photograph's or wittiness's.

Now to me being misinformed;
I lived the first 8 years of my life in miserable conditions on a stinking reservation. My Fathers brothers, taught me to make bows, arrows and knapping. When my Father died we moved off the Res. It was now up to me to provide for my Mother, sisters and brothers. We subsisted on what Mom grew in the garden and the meat that I provided. Mostly squirrels and jack rabbits at first. I killed my first deer at age 9 with a single shot .22lr. I started trapping that same year. I became very good at both hunting and trapping.

Misinformed, not hardly. I choose the new ways because they are for the most part better (_thats why the old ways are not in common practice any more_). I know what it is to be stranded in a hostile environment with almost nothing. I know what it is to be unsure if I would be alive or dead in the next 10 minutes let alone any hope at the time of being rescued. I have lived it and I have the memories and the nightmares as souvenirs. When I post something here it is tested, it is simple and it is productive. It has to be. If I put information on here and someone used it and lost their life because it wasn't relevant teaching. Or gave up their desire to learn about things wild because of the difficulty. I would never forgive myself.

Now wake up and realize that I'm not the only one who feels and has voiced that some of the stuff you put on here is, for lack of better words "way out there"! And quit being so tender skinned.

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## Gray Wolf

> The practices i am trying to describe are the methods of survival of those who came before us , some of us survivalists are primmitive techies, my methods are genuine practice.


*This is not a flame!*
I also don't understand where you got the method you're describing. Every place I looked described the same way Mac's book did. They describe making a split into a growing tree limb, then forcing the flint head into it. The tree healing itself would fill the split tightly around the stone. Please point me to any place that describes your way of using a tree for this purpose, I always want to learn, real ways, not what might have been. Again, _this is not a flame_, I just can't find doing it the way you say anywhere. Please don't say it's something that was never reported or described or written about, that it's just some secret way handed down...

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> So again, how do you come up with these dates you state??? 
> How did you come up with that tree being *911 years older* than that house?? 
> 
> As I posted earlier, 
> 
> 
> The State Park workers don't date anything before the 1919 house, from when the Matheson family of Miami owned the island. They're are a couple of other buildings on the island also. The records of the island ownership itself only dates to 1843.
> 
> Also, sorry but the picture you posted doesn't look like the Florida Strangler Fig. That why I posted the pictures of 3 different Florida Strangler Figs.


Its a strangler fig, trees are one of my fields of study. strangler figs spread when they cant climb once a wide base is established then they rise.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> You are not talking about *wilderness survival*. You are talking about an antiquated practice. In your own words;
> 
> 
> If you were in a true life or death "survival situation", growing an axe handle is not an option. 
> 
> There are folks on here that are into running around with stone tipped spears and stone Axe's. Or black powder guns and tomahawks. If thats you, then good for you. Some of that technology is very useful for survival. Growing an axe handle isn't one of them.
> 
> I have made post other than insults. Some of them are even educational. But unlike a good deal of other folks. I am reading the multitude of information that is already here. In that way I don't post something that has already been discussed. If and when I decide to make another educational contribution. It will be something new to the forum I hope, as well as throughly tested. Maybe even documented with video, photograph's or wittiness's.
> 
> ...


When your Atv runs out of gass, and your shotgun mis fires its final wet load,
you would be to take care of yourself. 

Klkak, Survival is a life style, yours must be like madd maxx, (thugs with guns) and dune buggies looking to take from someone who worked to earn what they have. Horticulture, is a very important aspect of survival, that helps to leave something for someone else.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> *This is not a flame!*
> I also don't understand where you got the method you're describing. Every place I looked described the same way Mac's book did. They describe making a split into a growing tree limb, then forcing the flint head into it. The tree healing itself would fill the split tightly around the stone. Please point me to any place that describes your way of using a tree for this purpose, I always want to learn, real ways, not what might have been. Again, _this is not a flame_, I just can't find doing it the way you say anywhere. Please don't say it's something that was never reported or described or written about, that it's just some secret way handed down...


Theres not much info out there, and i am not so sure that what is availible is accurate. when I posted this thread i was hoping for suggestions or methods that work. I have done experiments with fish sized bones and small glass knives. now I am expanding that research in hopes of answering those "UNKNOWN" questions, Was it done for conservation, The iron hard connection of wood and stone in a tool like this cannot be duplicated by any other means. these techniques are important to know even if you never make use of them. And remember that someone cherrished even the stones more than we do.

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## tsitenha

And the Academy Award for most theatrical post goes to:

come on you know who you are: :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I haven't seen so much warmth and friendship since my dog got neutered

klkak: when you were on the rez, did you look around? there were a lot of us around. we all went through it 
get on with life, don't use it as a shield/crutch

Gray Wolf: prove him wrong, give the book, page correction of his post
not many books were written by paleo peoples, word of mouth passed on at night around a communal fire, on the trail, while actually participating in a task etc....was the norm 
today we are trying to reclaim some of those truths...memory is not always long enough so we have to retro understand and try out what happened.

As far as being only about "survival" in the bush well no one can tell what small skill knowledge acquired here will serve them in a time of need.

As I said before, sort it out by trial and error, ignore what you don't want
get on with your lives.

Personally I wont loose sleep over it.    yoh

(but it does make for a good gigggle)

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## Ole WV Coot

Folks all this is kinda interesting, if it was done or not I don't think we will ever know. I do know one thing, in a survival situation nobody would waste their time on this method. I am sure IF I wanted to attach a "rock" to a stick I could find a live tree with a fork, put whatever in it and have wood on both sides. Good for one good THUNK on somebody's head and then take his hatchet, knife, food, women, booze and probably the other useless stuff he worked so hard to hoard. That is either survival or too much "shine" on a Sat. nite.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

If we consider this as a form of agricultural practice, wood lore has more to say.

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## klkak

> klkak: when you were on the rez, did you look around? there were a lot of us around. we all went through it 
> get on with life, don't use it as a shield/crutch


*Tsitenha:* Yes I looked around. I know I wasn't alone. When I left the rez, I left for good. I never returned not even to visit. I don't use my experience there as a "shield/crutch" either. In fact I rarely ever think or talk of it. However, I have never forgotten the lessons I learned there and the years following my Fathers death. The only reason I brought it up in my post, was to reveal that survival for me was not and is still not an "interest, hobby or pass time". It was also to let our forum brother know that I have more then just a passing knowledge of the primitive ways. In fact, it is not uncommon to find me out by the shed making stone tools or a bow (both "self" and "backed").

Now, for me this subject is a "dead horse".

*Eugene*, If my ATV were to run out of gas and I had fired my last round. It would be but an inconvenience. If I were to die because of it....I am ready and have been waiting my turn to go "home" for a very long time. :Smile: 

*Everyone:* Please forgive me for my aggressive comments.

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## Sam

> *Tsitenha:* Yes I looked around. I know I wasn't alone. When I left the rez, I left for good. I never returned not even to visit. I don't use my experience there as a "shield/crutch" either. In fact I rarely ever think or talk of it. However, I have never forgotten the lessons I learned there and the years following my Fathers death. The only reason I brought it up in my post, was to reveal that survival for me was not and is still not an "interest, hobby or pass time". It was also to let our forum brother know that I have more then just a passing knowledge of the primitive ways. In fact, it is not uncommon to find me out by the shed making stone tools or a bow (both "self" and "backed").
> 
> Now, for me this subject is a "dead horse".
> 
> *Eugene*, If my ATV were to run out of gas and I had fired my last round. It would be but an inconvenience. If I were to die because of it....I am ready and have been waiting my turn to go "home" for a very long time.
> 
> *Everyone:* Please forgive me for my aggressive comments.


 Hey Klkak, how is your ankle? I have not heard anymore about it. And how is Mrs. Klkak? I hope you both are doing better. I am glad that you are taking the time to share what you know with your decendants.
-Sam

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## klkak

Sam, I have an appointment on the 6th of this month to have my cast removed. At that time they will x-ray it. I hope it shows the bone has healed. I will be posting an update about my wife in the next day or so in the thread "Brain Tumor". Thank you for asking.

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## klkak

erunkis, Would you please quit side stepping GW's question.

*How did you determine the age of that tree?*

Spell it out in plain English. Either you have a factual source or you injected your own truth!

*Which is it?*

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> erunkis, Would you please quit side stepping GW's question.
> 
> *How did you determine the age of that tree?*
> 
> Spell it out in plain English. Either you have a factual source or you injected your own truth!
> 
> *Which is it?*


I asked a horticulturist on Islamorada Key about that tree and others in the local island area. The mans name is Brian Zarcone. He is also a diving instructor/ tour guide.

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## tsitenha

Klkak, no apology needed to me
if I apologised for every idiot word out of my mouth I'd be forever on my knees

The strong ones made it of the rez and did stay out...you made it :Big Grin:

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

Some of the things that Brian told me about the red Mangrove was even more amazing than that Strangler Fig.

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## Gray Wolf

> tsitenha
> Gray Wolf: prove him wrong, give the book, page correction of his post


I did, I posted what Mac had found....

Here it is again.




> Here you go.  
> *Weapons: A Pictorial history*
> 
> Page 16 in the review.
> 
> Mac





> tsitenha:
> not many books were written by paleo peoples, word of mouth passed on at night around a communal fire, on the trail, while actually participating in a task etc....was the norm.


That's why we have Paleontologists, Archeologists, Anthropologists, Historians, etc. The dinosaurs didn't write or have those communal fires, but amazingly we know so much about them. Ötzi the Iceman died by himself, yet we know what he ate, carried, wore, his tools, his weapons, that he was in a fight with at least two people, won, but died a few days to a week later. and he was from 3300 BC.  
Isn't history amazing....

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## crashdive123

> When your Atv runs out of gass, and your shotgun mis fires its final wet load,
> you would be to take care of yourself. 
> 
> Klkak, Survival is a life style, yours must be like madd maxx, (thugs with guns) and dune buggies looking to take from someone who worked to earn what they have. Horticulture, is a very important aspect of survival, that helps to leave something for someone else.


I understand the curiosity of some of these posts and the interest in learning about the ways things may have been done.  With unfamiliar and different things come the questions that are asked for clarification and understanding.  When people are passionate about a topic and get questions or challenges they may tend to not appreciate it.  Like I've always said, if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

As far as the Madd Maxx comment - I must say that if I was in a survival situation - atv or not, shotgun or not I would be mighty d***ed glad to have somebody like Klkak with me to help me through the situation.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

A lot of trees's limbs fuse when they touch, and if you scrape the bark off down to the wood where the limbs touch you get even better results. the weapons book barely describes an assumed probable method. nice try.

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## Gray Wolf

> A lot of trees's limbs fuse when they touch, and if you scrape the bark off down to the wood where the limbs touch you get even better results. the weapons book barely describes an assumed probable method. nice try.


Nice try????  :Confused: 

*FROM THE BOOK:*
"making a split into a growing tree limb, then forcing the flint head into it. The tree seeking to heal its wound fills the split tightly around the stone......"

How is that an assumed probable method????

Do you even know who Edwin Tunis is, or the books he's written?

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Nice try???? 
> 
> *FROM THE BOOK:*
> "making a split into a growing tree limb, then forcing the flint head into it. The tree seeking to heal its wound fills the split tightly around the stone......"
> 
> How is that an assumed probable method????


Sorry , What I meant was that method is just one of many that all complete the same basic job, different processes hold different ways, not all stones want to gripped that way , some times braiding limbs togather with the stone in it is more manageable.

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## crashdive123

Just for curiosity sake, have you grown any handles into or around rock yet that have successfully made a working tool.  If so, I'd love to see the pics.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I have done knife blades that way, I have a couple friends in NC that grow knife and adz handles with this method of various ways... unfortunately I havent any useable pics to share, I'm sorry about that.

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## tsitenha

Gray Wolf,

"Ötzi the Iceman died by himself, yet we know what he ate, carried, wore, his tools, his weapons, that he was in a fight with at least two people, won, but died a few days to a week later. and he was from 3300 BC.
Isn't history amazing.... "

Ok what was his language, religious beliefs, cultural distinction? 
Aboriginals seldom had written legacies to leave behind oral traditions were the norm.
As we have seen with residential schools once the the culture is gone so is most of the learning, not all is explained by the sciences.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

Here is a the "Ocala Home" Magazine (fall 2008).. It depicts a paint brush with grass for bristles, and a hammer with roots growing out of it to form a handle.

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## crashdive123

While it is a cool drawing it has nothing to do with growing a handle for a tool, but rather a metaphor for going green. http://www.ocalahomemagazine.com/

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Gray Wolf,
> 
> "Ötzi the Iceman died by himself, yet we know what he ate, carried, wore, his tools, his weapons, that he was in a fight with at least two people, won, but died a few days to a week later. and he was from 3300 BC.
> Isn't history amazing.... "
> 
> Ok what was his language, religious beliefs, cultural distinction? 
> Aboriginals seldom had written legacies to leave behind oral traditions were the norm.
> As we have seen with residential schools once the the culture is gone so is most of the learning, not all is explained by the sciences.


I wonder how the axe that Otzi had was constructed they didnt realy talk about that.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> While it is a cool drawing it has nothing to do with growing a handle for a tool, but rather a metaphor for going green. http://www.ocalahomemagazine.com/


ok, perhaps you said right. but the implied simularity, is well... simular. thanks for the link Crash!

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## tsitenha

The ax was made from fairly pure copper, poured molten into a mold and shaped. Surprised a lot of people with its relative modern technology per say.
Short form: Copper has the ability to harden as it slowly cools off and work hardens further as it is used, not terribly hard but very abrasive. 
By adding zinc or tin; bronze or brass alloys were later achieved. 
Opposite to iron which hardens with rapid cooling in water for example often it is too brittle to do specific task. By decreasing/or managing the carbon content and tempering the ore steel is produce. Short form of course

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

This is what I am going to try , three years from now i will know how well it worked.

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And  it is set into a split in the wood just below a branch.

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## Pict

It seems to me that instead of actually splitting the green wood until the head can be forced in that it might be less damaging to the tree to rather bore an oblong hole through it large enough to just barely fit the axe head.  That would leave the wood immediately above and below the head relatively untouched. Looking at that photo it seems that one side or the other could very well die or at least take a very long time to heal up that long split above and below the stone.  

I would imagine that in order to maximize the regrowth/healing of the tree that the bark should be split vertically and then held open and undamaged while the inner wood was bored out.  This would allow the vertical split in the living cambium to have very little distance to heal, as the vascular bundles in the cambium run up and down the wood splitting it vertically would cut very few of them.  I would also try to start such a project at the end of winter before the sap starts to run in the tree allowing it to scab over as soon as it does.

It also seems like a good tactic to use a larger section of green wood and shape the outside of the handle down to the proper proportions once it is healed, cut, and seasoned.  Shaving down the outside of such a handle would be no big deal even with stone tools.  

I don't think this exercise has much to recommend itself to wilderness survival but it is an interesting experiment in stone age methods. Mac

*Edited to Add*:  As a kid growing up in PA we would make formidable war clubs by taking a green stick and boring a hole (with an auger) in it just large enough to force a railroad spike through.  They had a hammer head on one side and a sharpened chisel spike on the other.  We never thought of leaving one on a living tree but come to think of it, it probably would have worked as long as the spike was painted with that black stuff they use to seal wounds in trees.  Of course by the time they would have been ready we would have been beyond the years when we walked around with rail spikes in our belts for "protection".  Yes, my childhood was a fusion of "Stand By Me" and "Lord of the Flies".

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## crashdive123

To prevent that branch from dying you may want to put some wound dressing on it and close it up a bit with grafting tape.  Granted that would not be in keeping with the primative methods, but it may give you success with the project.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I am trying to figure out the methods that have positive results, as I mentioned the weapons book may have not fully explained how the axe head was placed then grown into the handle, i'll try different trees and see what happens

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## tsitenha

Wouldn't binding the split at bottom of the stone head keep the limb from further splitting and maybe minimize the injury; also binding the top of the split kind of force the limb to repair itself.
Adding a little pine gum, pitch to the expose parts help with re-healing and insect control?

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## Gray Wolf

> I wonder how the axe that Otzi had was constructed they didnt realy talk about that.


Yes they did. In detail. Also see tsitenha's post #86. They even know how his clothes were woven and what materials were used.

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## crashdive123

> Wouldn't binding the split at bottom of the stone head keep the limb from further splitting and maybe minimize the injury; also binding the top of the split kind of force the limb to repair itself.
> Adding a little pine gum, pitch to the expose parts help with re-healing and insect control?



I would think so.  That was the point I was trying to make.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

possibly so, binding above and below prior to splitting may make a difference, I will try that. thanks

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

this is another attempt at getting it right, i just pushed these into the living wood without splitting it. these bones are for cutting wood.


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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I still havent found a good photo of an axe mounted in this manner . But i will keep looking

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## Gray Wolf

> this is another attempt at getting it right, i just pushed these into the living wood without splitting it. these bones are for cutting wood.
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Those are minute (mī-nūt') compared to the other one you posted. With these tiny ones, you could have split the branch just under the size of the bone, and pushed them through the branch until a small part came through the other side and then you would not have to worry about killing it. Same as what the book said.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

Until I master a suitible technique, I'll stick to this trusted method of hafting an Axe....

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## Gray Wolf

Maybe it's the shadow in the picture, but that edge looks mighty thick. You could crush walnuts with that, but chop down a small tree????

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> Maybe it's the shadow in the picture, but that edge looks mighty thick. You could crush walnuts with that, but chop down a small tree????


Yea that axe head was not too good, It did however manage to chip back to a sharp edge during normal use (self sharpening) Because of the direction of the grain pattern in the stone when it chips it leaves a sharp cutting edge. that axe cut pretty good and was also in poor condition.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

its been 7 months since i last posted on this thread. the axe head is wedged tight and the wood is encapsulating it as predicted.ive uploaded a pic to my forum album. this is an exelent method. in three years this stone would be lost in the wood.i guess using the crepe myrtle was a good choice,with encouraging results in just 7 months. mabe after the spring growth period it will be ready.i'm uploading a video today to my youtube channel

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

one of my friends in NC makes knives (like the ones that FVR posts),nice pointed flint and chert, that have been grown over by wood. only he uses honey sucle trees (red flower). the flowers of the huney sucle tree are edible,the bark is good for rope,and the wood grows fast(up 8 feet per year) i have access to one of those so ive started a couple knives,the spring growth is already closing in on the stone.

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## NCO

I've heard some stories about that.(growing handles to axes.) Here it includes this kind of stone axe:
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The you just place it on the ground upside down so that a small rowan goes through the hole and crows in tight. The core wood of a rowan is very hard and is still often used in axe shafts here.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

wow thats realy nice NCO. ive seen simular tools to that. they were for boat building. some of them are for hammering off aspen slats where you beat a length log and peel up the strips of wood loosened by the malot. others are for wedging wood burls ect..stump hafting is an awsome way to wail! thanks for the post NCO. cant see the size of it but that one may have served the ambergris industry. (Whale oil and perfumes)

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## Smok

As I remember it when we made those it was not axes we were making bot war clubs . On the berth of a son the farther would go out and start some of these so that when his son was of age he would have a good war club

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

the scrimshaw industry demanded its tools too, the far traveling hunters of seal and whale would also as SMOK said use those same tool/weapons to break up the animal bones to make tools and scrimshaw which was as valuable as the oil. and at that time the spongy porous bones were used for the wicks to burn the oil.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

most stone axes and hammers that i have seen have been bone working tools. dont forget, work habits developed during the iceage with the wooly mammoth. the tools were passed down by need and tradition.

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## Rick

Scrimshaw was the making of tools. Later, it became known as little more than the whaler's way of passing time. Very similar to knot tying. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrimshaw

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I would like to have a set of Fids and Darners made out of bone,but whale and seal parts are extreemly hard to get raw and the finished work too expensive to buy.

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## Barefoot

this post made me think of this art form.....

http://www.pooktre.com/

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## NCO

The axe I posted here was actually a war axe. The great "industry" in here during stone and Iron(viking)age was furs. Not so much seal or whale oils. Seals were hunted of cource, for food, but they used big stone maces for that.

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## ClayPick

I rounded up an old axe head and am going to set it on a ash sappling. I would really like to have buddies pooktre chair in my yard. Check out the poplar that's been eating my private road sign!
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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

exelent links and pics, thank you for your contribution to the thread. that chair is AMAZING!

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

> The axe I posted here was actually a war axe. The great "industry" in here during stone and Iron(viking)age was furs. Not so much seal or whale oils. Seals were hunted of cource, for food, but they used big stone maces for that.


its perfect too, no visible chips or cracks. I bet that would break some bones,bend metal, wow

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## NCO

Yup, and see the seam(?) on the center ridge of the axe. They made it so that the axe would look like a metal one.

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## erunkiswldrnssurvival

I noticed that, to be threatened by someone wielding that hammer would be terrifying.those guys back then must have had nerves of steel,and plans that they could depend on. by understanding what that thing could do to you ,you know what you need to protect yourself from it,and that takes planning equal to the "Brawn" so to speak.

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## your_comforting_company

I just got hold of this thread (thanks gryff)

I'd like to suggest red and paper mulberry trees. rather straight saplings, it's a thicket former and I've seen old ones that had trunks that would dwarf many live oaks. Might be worth a shot. I'm not sure about growth rate, I've only recently planted either in my yard.
Sparkleberry has similar characteristics to crepe myrtle and so does littlehip hawthorne, might be worth a go, I don't have access to a lot of them.. wife won't let me stick rocks in her pretty trees (yet). 
One more thing with the axe head idea is Red tips. Mine are overgrown and it's a good hard wood that grows fast. makes good handles in my little hand tools, and I've been using one limb for softening hides for quite some time now. very durable.
I have a couple old axe heads I'm gonna try this with, and maybe knock a rock or two into shape and see how long it takes to heal a split.. I'll let you know what I find.

Also, I'd imagine that a forked limb in that crape myrtle could be trained to twist around, like they do bonzai trees..

you got my primitive wheels turning. good stuff.
Thanks for passin this along gryff!

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## hunter63

James Michener mentions this in his book "Poland", was kind a peasent thing to do.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Hxg...age&q=&f=false
I sure it wa done by a lot of peoples over time, I mean, wasn't like they had to go to work..........

Couple pieces I found in a dried up river bead, appears to be an adz and top pf a bow drill.


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