# Survival > Bushcraft Medicine >  Treatment of Sleep Apnea in wilderness/ off grid (& for the poor/uninsured)

## TresMon

I have severe chronic obstructive sleep apnea. Perhaps you do or likely you know someone.

99% of the time treatment is a CPAP air machine- you wear a mask over you nose & mouth at night and it keeps your air way INFLATED.
This requires dang near $1g out of pocket to purchase, or good insurance and then tolerance. I liken using a cpap to hanging your face out the window of the car in the air stream doin 75mph on the interstate.. And trying to drift off to sleep. SUCKS.   
REGARDLESS- they require electricity!

Lesser employed treatment are oral devices that hold the jaw forward that are expensive, never covered by insurance and marginally effective.
Lastly there are surgical alterations of the tongue and airway- controversial, taboo in the surgical depts- likely not an option. Exorbitant is cost.

Sleep apnea is where the soft tissue in your throat relaxes and block your air way. It causes you to stay in a state of o2 deprivation throughout the night, which makes you miserably tired every day and makes you die early. Most likely heart failure before age 60 if untreated.

One of the huge choices I had to make in deciding to go off grid and pursue a wilderness life is me having to leave my cpap behind, be willing to be quite tired every single day of my life and die earlier......  I decided to LIVE for a while as opposed to "existing" for a long while.  I left the grid, my cpap and long life behind.

I was re-updating my combat medic training and had an epiphany...  Over and over I heard "establish airway."  I began to get angered with life or fate and thinking "well I lose my d@mn airway ever time I sleep!"   Then BAM!

I asked myself why I can't use the same technique to ESTABLISH my airway during my sleep that a medic does for a trauma victim with a compromised air way?????????????

I began to do 'net research and lo-n-behold some meds are experimenting with just that thought:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18520380
and others.

SO I have been sleeping with a NPA in place: Nasopharyngeal airway  or commonly called a "nasal trumpet"
http://www.itstactical.com/wp-conten.../11/Airway.jpg

http://www.sedationresource.com/PDGI...airway-set.jpg

Wikipedia on NPA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasopharyngeal_airway

I'm very excited to have found a means to treat apnea off grid, deep woods, whatever. Like when I was prescribed a CPAP back in the day I was told my body was so deprived it would take a few or several months to see good effects.  I expect the same with the Nasal trumpet- better health long term.

Despite what my medic buds and trainers told me I may experience I do not gag when inserting the NPA, nor do I have hoarseness the next morning.

Lastly NPA's come in several sizes. YOu'll need to either by an assorted set or get fitted prior.  I'd just waltz into my a fire department and ask if you can speak to the medic. Ask him to size you....

The correct size of NPA will be the length from your nose to your ear.......

They are available on ebay, w/o prescription for a whopping $6, free shipping.

Good NPA training here:
http://centegra.org/wp-content/uploa...eal-Airway.pdf

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## BENESSE

I'd be kinda afraid of potential for infection using it out in the bush...that is, unless it's an emergency.

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## randyt

I have read somewhere that playing the australian aborigine didgeridoo helps with sleep apnea. Something to do with strengthening the airways. Can't remember where I read it but perhaps a web search would turn up something.

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## randyt

I had to google this treatment. Sometimes something will pop in my head and I wonder if I dreamed it. LOL
Here's a link
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/od/s...Didgeridoo.htm

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## TresMon

I have been trying the Didg for several months- 7 to be exact.....
 :Frown:

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## randyt

well that sux. Do you enjoy playing the didg? hope so, at least there is that benefit.

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## nell67

I agree with Bee,cleanliness here would be an absolute must to keep from getting an infection,and inserting  that with even the tiniest amout of bacteria or virus so close to the brain is playing russian roullette,hoe you ordered tons of them,and have a way to sterilize/sanitize them.

My ex had to use one of those but he lost lots of weight after the house burned and he no longer required it.

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## randyt

maybe use a neti pot with goldenseal root powder, to keep things clean.

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## kyratshooter

Tres, how much overweight are you?

That is generally the primary factor in apnea and weight loss is the first step in treatment.  Even a small weight gain will trigger apnea and eliminating the excess weight will often bring it to an end.

Neti pots and home remedies occasionally work for sinus problems but not for muscle issues like apnea.

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## randyt

agreed a neti pot will do absolutely nothing for your sleep apnea but if you're sliding a tube in and out your nose you will benefit from keeping that area clean.

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## TresMon

several plants are anti viral anti fungus. Keeping it clean is my least worries.

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## kyratshooter

OK Tres, you still did not say how much weight you need to drop!

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## TresMon

5 pounds,  maybe?

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## Celticwarrior

I would never intubate in the field without the hope of sterile procedures. Not a good idea, but I guess it is better than asphyxiating in your sleep because you forget how to breathe.

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## TresMon

Not hard to sterilize the device in the field.
Soap & water
Betadine
iodine (tabs?)
Anerobic o2 water treatment
Boiling or steaming (some are rated for autoclave)
iodine
tea tree oil
bleach water solution
alcohol...
Vinegar
Tannins from trees

On & on

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## Rick

I would never willing stick anything up my nose in the wild (fingers don't count) or use a neti pot. I love my brain too much. 

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/1...n-cold-remedy/

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## nell67

> I would never willing stick anything up my nose in the wild (fingers don't count) or use a neti pot. I love my brain too much. 
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/1...n-cold-remedy/


I bought one of them thar neti pots last winter on the recommendation of a pharmasist,this was after the neck surgery and I could not use the darn thing because to properly use it,you must be able to turn your head much more than I was /am able to .nearly drowned myself with that darn thing.

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## LowKey

I had a gung ho doc wanted me to buy that CPAP thing a few months ago. Yeah...right. 
Dropped 20 pounds (30 to go) but already the symptoms are not as bad. Not waking up as much and not as messed up during the day.

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## Geek

I use a CPAP and it has been very effective.  The machines I have are relatively inexpensive and the only real issue is insuring that you have elctrical power available to operate them.

This turns the whole problem back to what happens if you have a loss of power.  Having suffered two 3 day power interruptions last year, I installed a generator.  I also have a back up CPAP machine.  At some point I will want to put together a Faraday cage  and a machine will go in along with whatever else I choose to store in the cage.  Beyond that I'll probably add a small solar unit to my preps at some point, etc.

I tend to look at Grid Down scenarios as a question of time.  If power went down, there would be an effort to restore it.  The question then becomes how long can you wait?  A few days? weeks?, months?, years?

Depending on your situation, you might have to make special preparations, in this case CPAP, for a diabetic insulin, etc.  This is just another challenge.

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## TresMon

Why not stash a $6 NPA in your bag in case your forced to take off?

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## Geek

> Why not stash a $6 NPA in your bag in case your forced to take off?


I travel with a CPAP regularly.  It will run off either AC, or 12 volt DC, or even a battery.  Why would I bug out with something different than what I use for travel all the time?

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## wildgarlic

If you guys would like toi try something alternative for apnea (and it might take a couple days to work). Take a Turmeric EXTRACT capsule with lunch and dinner and when you wake up in the morning take a serrapeptase capsule on an empty stocmach and wait 1 hr before eating.

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## Geek

CPAP is the most effective treatment, but another treatment is a dental appliance which positions your palate so it doesn't block the airway.  Wearing it is somewhat similar to wearing a retainer for those of you who have had orthodonture.  The dental appliance can be used in conjunction with CPAP or seperately.  I seem to do best with both but do okay with either one.  I suggest you talk to your dentist about a dental appliance.  You might get an improvement over CPAP alone with it and it will definitely give you some help if the power goes out.

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## coaldust

I too have sleep apnea and most of the machines only require4 to 6 volts to operate, even tough plugged into 110v outlet, I have a cigar lighter (12V) plug for mine and it will work for
at least 2 nights on a 12v battery before needing recharging. I have my gell cell battery hooked to a solar charger that I set-up in camp to keep the batt charged and have used it like that for 
extended camping trips.

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## prariewolf

In regards to off grid ,  a hunter came into camp with acpap machine that operated off a solar panel..The weight was real reasonable ( I loaded it on the Mule )and it seemed to work fine for him...

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## Geek

That sounds interesting.  What sort of solar panel, charging set up, etc. did he use?

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## MaveRick

My unit is a Respironics REMstar Auto. I like this unit because it is one of the smaller and lighter units. For home use the main unit consists of 2 components, a large AC to DC adapter and the Main CPAP unit. All CPAP units run on DC but some of them have the adapter built into the main unit. Try to avoid getting one of those units if possible. Knowing that this was a DC powered unit, I turned it over to see just exactly how much DC power it needed to run. The sticker on the bottom reads 12v@5.0A. I then went to the Respironics web site to see what accessories were available for this unit. Fortunately Respironics had a ready-made power cord to plug directly into a cigarette lighter jack. It also came with an adaptor with a cigarette lighter to alligator clip adaptor. I was able to run my unit for a full 2 weeks on a single marine battery. My OTG power setup consists of 4 marine batteries and 8 15 watt solar panels so I am covered at home.

For my GHB I have one of those dental positioning mouthpieces, a chin strap antihistamines and a snore stop throat spray. Also sleeping with your head elevated or sitting will reduce the effects of sleep apnea.

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## chinookpilot77

I have horrible sleep apnea...I have for my whole life it seems.  

My cure?  Sleep on my stomach.

I never snore on my stomach, I never choke according to my wife.  What this means for me in the bush is that hammocks are pretty much out.  I "might" try sleeping on my side in one someday, but I'm a pretty big advocate of a stiff mattress and sleeping in the prone!

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## senna

most people who have apnea need to lose  50 lbs or more. If you are 6 ft tall, it is most unlikely that you are muscled enough to be weighing over  175 lbs. :-)

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## Rick

Do you personally know most people with sleep apnea? Just curious.

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## welderguy

> most people who have apnea need to lose  50 lbs or more. If you are 6 ft tall, it is most unlikely that you are muscled enough to be weighing over  175 lbs. :-)


  you must know a lot of skinny tall people, I'm considered under weight and I am 6'2 197 pounds. Both the nutritionist I visit and a trainer said I need to boost my weight up to 220 for my frame.

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## senna

your nutritionist is ignorant or lying to you. Unless you do nothing but workout for years, or use steroids, if you're  6 2 and 197, you're  25% bodyfat (or more) and 12% is all that's healthy, for males. Almost all height gain is in the femur. A 1" thick slice across both legs is less than 4 lbs.

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## Rick

When posting "facts" it's often helpful to also post sources. That way everyone has the opportunity to learn. In this case, you've failed to consider frame size in your calculations. If Dave is large framed then his 197 is considered ideal. However, since both the nutritionist and his trainer have actually met him it seems they might have a leg up on his physical needs. 

http://www.healthchecksystems.com/heightweightchart.htm

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## chinookpilot77

> most people who have apnea need to lose  50 lbs or more. If you are 6 ft tall, it is most unlikely that you are muscled enough to be weighing over  175 lbs. :-)


Senna, you are a troll to beat all trolls.  I have read about half a dozen of your posts now, and every single one of them has been either smart-assed, sarcastic, or uninformed.  I'd love to meet you in person someday.  

Just for the record, I'm 6'2-3" and 255 in this picture.  Still think I don't have enough muscle to be over 175 you stupid (insert four letter word here)?

photo.jpg

This picture was taken today.  And yes it's me...just check out my signature if you need more proof than that.  You are the biggest waste of bandwidth on this entire forum.

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## chinookpilot77

haha, I posted this and then saw he was banned.  Way to go admins!   :Thumbs Up:

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## BENESSE

> haha, I posted this and then saw he was banned.  Way to go admins!


Glad my suspicions were confirmed. Something was "off" about this guy and sometimes you _feel_ it before you know it. I love how that works.

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## pete lynch

> Glad my suspicions were confirmed. Something was "off" about this guy and sometimes you _feel_ it before you know it. I love how that works.


All I can say to that is "Yep!"

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## yassine

why you don't try surgery 
******oopsy. link removed. that are commonly conducted in people who have obstructive sleep apnea. In surgery, the doctor will remove any part that can obstruct the airway. The tonsils, uvula or soft palate are common parts that are removed.

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## #1WVBonBonQueen

Ok, after reading and checking out all the links that are still working links I must say Thanks Y'all.  I have found this interesting.  I am a bad snorer.  Hubby puts up with a lot from me, everynight on any side, and I still snore.   Yes, I need to lose weight, will I? probably not.  When I was thin, I still snored. Didn't make a difference. 
But I liked the post about the Didgeridoo and Learning to play will help strengthen the muscles.  I also like the NPA too. I don't know if I can put one up my nose, but I would try, as it would seem a lot less intrusive than those CPAP machines that all the drs are prescribing.  
Thanks again for the information.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

For years, #1 wife tried to get me to go do a sleep study.  I hardheadedly refused. After all, my grandfather snored like a freight train, had sleep apnea, and I'm just like him, body type and all, same disposition and everything.  I'm just like him and he lived to be 63....... uh ................... Okay, where is that sleep study place anyway. 

First night, horrible, swore I wasn't going back.  Four days later, i figured I was halfway so I went back. The hooked me up to the wires and set up the machine.  I slept for 10 hours, woke up, looked at the clock and slept for two more hours.  In the last 6 years I've had 7 nights without the CPAP machine.  I have not been camping where there is no electricity either.  

I've been looking at the head mounted types and solar rechargers.  Looks to run about $850.  I've spent a lot more than that on other stuff and had a lot less to show for it.


Alan

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## EvaUnit

*I'm an idiot.  I'm a spammer.  I thought I was being slick by coming back and editing my post.  I was wrong.*

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## crashdive123

Thank you for registering today under another screen name.  I'm guessing you will be back to edit the inoquous post you made to something more spammy.  We'll wait.

Just so that you know......I may not have noticed your changes to this post unless you did.......so thanks.

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## sandykostin

I wish you a lot of patience; if you tune into good vibes, then everything will start working out for you. Now there is such a level of medicine that you will have to suffer from sleep issues for a couple of years at most in extreme cases. Try to engage in some physical activity during the day so that you then want to sleep heavily and fall asleep without any problems. Or some brain activity can also help you fall asleep at the end of the day easily. Still, you are already guided by yourself about any activity and preferably consult with your doctor. You can use SPAM so that your doctor can look at your tests at any time and make sure that everything is fine

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## Rick

Oh, this should be good. I'll check on your vibes just to see how they work out for you. Not well, I suspect.

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## crashdive123

It's kind of strange/weird/expected (pick whichever fits) that so many spammers are using services out of New Jersey, New York and Ontario.

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## madmax

ptthh. Yeah really odd.

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## Rick

Virtual VPNs. They want to be incognito. As opposed to Incong...neato, which we are. 

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## crashdive123

Yeah, but they are still fun to play with.

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## Rick

I knew you'd be back. Your vibes were not so groovy but spam is always tasty. Risk it for the biscuit as we used to say.

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## crashdive123

Way too predictable.  I guess making a living from mom's basement is tough.

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