# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  EMP does NOT effect most autos + everything else you ever wanted to know on EMPs

## TucsonMax

There were a few old/odd threads on this topic, so I thought I'd start a new one.  

The Commission to Assess the Threat to the US from an EMP Attack completed a 200+ page report last year.  The participants are impressive and their findings, quite a read:   http://www.empcommission.org/index.php

The one thing I want to point out specifically is, according to their tests, only a few cars and trucks (10% they estimate) will stop running while 2/3 will experience nuisance malfunctions (blinking dashboard lights, etc) but will still run.  Also cars/trucks with engines turned-off during the EMP experienced no problems starting, afterwards.  The bigger problems associated w/ Transportation are: street lights malfunctioning causing huge traffic delays and gas pumps not working. (The auto section begins on p122.)

----------


## Ken

That's a great link.  Thanks!

----------


## Rick

Interesting take. We've discussed that possibility. The body of the car can serve as a nested faraday cage making the components safe. Of course, grounding is essential in non-automotive applications. I expect this will be a good read. Thanks!!!!

----------


## crashdive123

I haven't read through the report yet (I will), but my understanding is a lot of what is affected by an EMP will be determined by the magnitue and location of the blast.  Some studies that I sas basically said that three to four well placed, high altitude detonations would take out most electrical devices in North America.  As far as cars - anything pre (don't remember the exact year) 1980 - 1985 should not be affected.  Maybe this stuff is covered in the link you gave - I will take a look at it.

----------


## TucsonMax

> my understanding is a lot of what is affected by an EMP will be determined by the magnitue and location of the blast.


This is true.




> As far as cars - anything pre (don't remember the exact year) 1980 - 1985 should not be affected.


According to the report, this (common thinking) is incorrect.  It's counterintuitive:  "While electronic applications have proliferated within automobiles, so too have application standards and electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility (EMI/EMC) practices. Thus, while it might be expected that increased EMP vulnerability would accompany the proliferated electronics applications, this trend, at least in part, is mitigated by the increased application of EMI/EMC practices."

(Pretty good, hedged, government-speak :-)

----------


## crashdive123

I will read it.  I'm basing my understanding on the studies that I read regarding the nuclear weapons that the ships I was on were capable of carrying.  This may be a more up to date report, taking into account many of the advances in technology.

----------


## Mountain Man

A running car only does so when it has fuel to power it.  They said gas tanks can't pump, and if gas stations are down I`m guessing super markets will be down / cash only. What about the factories that make the replacement parts? Will they be good if they are on the shelf / not in use or will all new ones need to be replaced? If they need to be replaced will the machines that are used to make them work?

I didn't read the report, but more importantly than a running car how will the power grid / system be affected by an EMP?

Would the blast burst their system and blackout the country? That seems a bit worse than a non-running car.

And if that's the case then your solar at your house does no good most likely either.

----------


## Schleprok

Crash, would be older vehicles thatn 1980. Basically, if it has a point type ignition (non electronic) it will be safe. Most cars probably pre 1975, boats some years later. Most mid 80's vehicles can be retrofitted with systems from earlier vehicles.

----------


## crashdive123

I wasn't sure of the years.  Well, I've read about half way through the abstract.  So far nothing has been different from what I had previously learned.  I'll finish it later then on to the book.

----------


## Rick

MM - To your questions, we've experienced EMPs before. Here are some examples of EMP damage that has occurred because of solar flares: 

Satellites (upset and damage)

1994:  Anik E1 & E2 damaged (TV and data services lost to 1600 communities)1998: PanAmSat's Galaxy IV satellite (disrupted pager service across USA)2003: Extensive satellite upsets and damage due to a solar storm
Power grid (especially Extra High Voltage (EHV) transformers) (damage) 

1958 & 1972 : Transformer failures at British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority

1989: Hydro Quebec power interrupted/damaged; Salem NJ nuclear plant transformers failed

2003: 14 transformers damaged in South Africa
  Long communications lines (disruption and damage)  
1859, 1882, 1909, 1921, 1926: Telegraph lines disrupted, operators shocked, fires started

1940 and 1958: Landline and undersea lines disrupted and/or damaged

1972: US and Canadas telephone system damaged/disrupted
  HF radio paths (disruption)  
1991 upset of HF radio support Gulf War

Solar flares killed radio communications in North and South America in 2005. Same thing in 1998.

EMPs are nothing new. A device designed as an EMP weapon would be.

----------


## sgtdraino

[QUOTE=Rick;131888]
1958 & 1972 : Transformer failures at British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority
2003: 14 transformers damaged in South Africa

Were those Decepticons, or Autobots?

----------


## Rick

Why Autobots, of course. The solar flares were caused by the evil Decepticons in their misguided bid to control All Spark, those dirty ....

----------


## TucsonMax

> A running car only does so when it has fuel to power it.  They said gas tanks can't pump, and if gas stations are down I`m guessing super markets will be down / cash only. What about the factories that make the replacement parts? Will they be good if they are on the shelf / not in use or will all new ones need to be replaced? If they need to be replaced will the machines that are used to make them work?
> 
> I didn't read the report, but more importantly than a running car how will the power grid / system be affected by an EMP?
> 
> Would the blast burst their system and blackout the country? That seems a bit worse than a non-running car.
> 
> And if that's the case then your solar at your house does no good most likely either.


MM: My thinking on EMPs & Cars was all about the short term.  If the EMP is an attack that takes down the whole grid nationwide and thus TSHTF, then:
- For Americans: It will likely happen during the day, when parents are at work and kids in school.  I think the first instinct of most people will be reuniting w/ their families at home. A working car will enable parents to get kids and get home, which will help calm the country.  Or let me put it the opposite way, if parents were stranded at work and couldn't reach spouses & kids, society would break-down much faster.
- For Members of this site: many may want to bug-out, and from what I've read, appear to need their cars to get started on their trip.
- For me personally, bug-in for a few days until road travel diminishes dramatically (lack of gas, government telling the country to stay at home) and head for Mexico (under 1 hr drive), which, I'm hoping, after a few days, the border will calm down and be open.

----------


## Schleprok

I have come across a 1967 Dodge Coronet with an electric fuel pump mounted in the trunk connected to 30 feet of fuel line. Easy to drop into a stations tank during power outages and pump the car full. Gotta be attended. Yes, it was the station owners car.

----------


## Rick

I can't conceive of an EMP Attack let alone one that affect the entire nation. I'm much more concerned about the tornado that happens when family is separated or the wild fire or blizzard. Those could easily happen, could occur within a short amount of time, could happen with no advance notice (depending on where you are) and could serve to keep you and your family separated.

----------


## crashdive123

While I agree that it is not the most prominent threat that we face, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities (I realize that nobody is saying it is).  A large nuclear detonation in the atmosphere will disrupt electronics in a line of sight area from the location of the detonation.  The scenarios that have three large detonations taking out much of the electrical/electronic equipment in North America assumes a fairly high altitude detonation.  A less wide spread, but equally as devastating detonation could be accomplished from a device carried in an aircraft flying above 30,000 feet.  It may sound like the stuff of Hollywood movie creations, but before September 11, 2001 so was flying aircraft into buildings  for many.  If (and it's a big if) something like that happened, while it would cause a huge disruption and panic it would be much easier to recover from.  Not unlike a large regional weather event.

----------


## Rick

Wouldn't a detonation at that altitude have to be a very large weapon in order to impact the grid on a national level? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I would also think we'd have much more to worry about in that scenario than EMP. 

In my previous post, I was also thinking of a pure EMP weapon rather than a nuke. I know EMP weapons are on the board but I'm not aware of anyone outside the US that has one functional.

----------


## crashdive123

I'm not aware of any pure EMP weapons outside the US either.  All nuclear detonations will produce an EMP.  The larger the blast, the greater the affect.  EMP affect is defined by line of sight, so the higher the altitude, the more widespread the coverage.  The reason I postulated an aircraft carried detonation is that those countries with the technology to perform high altitude (by that I mean at least 50 miles up) are not likely to do it.  Launches are easily detectable, thereby retaliation is almost assured.  Kind of like the mutually assured destruction stand-off that existed with the former Soviet Union.  Obtaining a nuclear device is obviously not easy, or we probably would have seen evidence of that already.  That is why there is such a concern with North Korea.  It's not so much IMO that they will use them against us or another nation, but that they might sell them.  I believe all of the blustering and firing of short and medium range weapons that they are doing is nothing more than a sales pitch to would be buyers.  So, a detonation at an altitude of five or six miles would certainly cover a large area, but would be more recoverable than a high altitude detonation (IMO) since much of the country would not be disrupted.

----------


## bulrush

> That is why there is such a concern with North Korea.  It's not so much IMO that they will use them against us or another nation, but that they might sell them.  I believe all of the blustering and firing of short and medium range weapons that they are doing is nothing more than a sales pitch to would be buyers.  So, a detonation at an altitude of five or six miles would certainly cover a large area, but would be more recoverable than a high altitude detonation (IMO) since much of the country would not be disrupted.


Good point. Kim Jong Il, well, he is just plain crazy. But he may be reigned in by his advisors into not launching against the US.

----------


## TucsonMax

> Good point. Kim Jong Il, well, he is just plain crazy. But he may be reigned in by his advisors into not launching against the US.


I'm sorry, but who reigned-in Stalin, Hitler?

----------


## TucsonMax

We're off-topic... any more thoughts on EMPs?  I agree w/ Crash on the altitude detonation... I think it would be pretty tough for a North Korea or one of their customers to get it TEOTWAWKI right.

----------


## crashdive123

Korea and their long range missiles don't concern me as much as them selling their short and mediium range missiles.  How hard would it be to launch a short/medium range weapon (don't really need much in the way of guidance) from a freighter as it enters the waters around New York - Seattle - or any major sea port?

----------


## Rick

You could even stow one on board a shipping container and track it via GPS. When it arrives in port, detonate by remote control. Good heavens, I just scared myself. That could work.

----------


## jamesbarrington

Hi there, I thought this thread is very interesting. I wanted to ask you guys. In case of an EMP due to a perfect solar storm, what areas of the world would be less affected? I'm from Spain so I'm wondering if it could effect the whole worlds communications.

Do you guys believe this is possible to happen this year? I'll leave you with this interesting article from NASA confirming what you say:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...espaceweather/

Many thanks and I'll be awaiting your replies!

----------


## Rick

> what areas of the world would be less affected?


Why, the side opposite the sun of course. Earth just got hit with an X5 flare, the largest classification, and nothing of consequence...dang it! My power just went out. 

Keep an eye on this site. 

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/

----------


## Sparky93

My truck is a 86 F-250, runs on hard wiring, fuses and diesel.... I think I'm good lol

----------


## Allen Currie Author

I'm surprised at you guys and the population in general. If a car is grounded (thru dirt on the tires or whatever) most would be a fairly effective faraday cage. Second, Emps are subject to the inverse square law from the point of origination. A small emp at high altitude won't effect much because the induced voltage from the EMP drops off so rapidly. Get high enough to cover a large area and the size of the EMP has to go up exponentially. Nuclear explosions MIGHT do it, but only the sun has the energy to cover large areas. 

On the other hand, I have the plans for a small EMP covering max 5 miles and likely nearer 3,  which would likely be useful during an electronically assisted night attack . MAYBE. I lack only one part plus I have to test it, soon I hope. I found and figured it out by googling Electromagnetic pulse. Simple hey?

Allen

----------


## Rick

No reason to be surprised at us. Most that posted don't think it's a problem.

----------


## kyratshooter

> On the other hand, I have the plans for a small EMP covering max 5 miles and likely nearer 3,  which would likely be useful during an electronically assisted night attack . MAYBE. I lack only one part plus I have to test it, soon I hope. I found and figured it out by googling Electromagnetic pulse. Simple hey?
> 
> Allen


I would love to be a fly on the wall when you test that thing.  They will be chasing the person at the epicenter of that event instantly. You are going to be a very well known person around the security circles almost immidiately. 

Here in the States you would instantly have the attention of the FCC, FAA, DOT, DHS, FBI and ATF.  That is a whole lot of alphabet soup for one person to stir.

If it worked you would be responsible for falling airplanes, fried auto electronics. blown TV sets, melted down computers, wrist watches self distructing on peoples' arms and stopping every heart pacemaker in the affected area.  I can not imagine the multiple murder charges and civil damage suits!

That is in all honesty, one bit of information and a capability I would not want to have or to allow anyone to know I had.

Oddly, the National Geographic Institute did some testing a year or so back and it took an EMP generator the size of a shipping container to stop a car engine 25 feet away.  They restarted the car and drove it away.  It also took them a while to find a car the device would work on.  Most were unaffected.

----------


## crashdive123

You could always test it out in the woods, say about 240 miles from the nearest road.  A place like that shouldn't draw too much attention.

----------


## kyratshooter

> You could always test it out in the woods, say about 240 miles from the nearest road.  A place like that shouldn't draw too much attention.


That's going to take a really long extension cord!


Do you suppose it will it run on AA batteries?

----------


## natertot

> That's going to take a really long extension cord!
> 
> 
> Do you suppose it will it run on AA batteries?


Just use a "Flux Capacitor"!

----------


## Rick

Personally, I'd use a flux pump. About 500 pumps and you'd have enough energy to EMP stuff for a whole day. Ooh. Ooh. Maybe it's one of those EMP devices you shake. I understand they only work on a Fair day, though. (get it? Fair day....Faraday) I slay myself.

----------


## kyratshooter

Are you supposed to keep the flux pump in the fair day cage?

Why would you only use stuff in bad weather and put it in a cage on a fair day?

Did anyone notice that we had the worst solar flare receintly that we have had in decades and it did not even make a blip in the twitterized world.  If it had not been all over the internet survivalist sites I would have never realized it had occurred.

----------


## Wildthang

My theory of an EMP event, would be mostly data and communication damage, and even at that, would take a very high magnitude event. The economy and the radical nut jobs of the world worries me much more than an EMP

----------


## crashdive123

While the recent flares didn't went mostly unnoticed in North America, it seems that in some places that was not the case.

http://news.discovery.com/space/sola...on-110217.html

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...111256/1/.html

----------


## randyt

In russia there was a some type of explosion that created a big crater sometime during the very early 1900's. There has been speculation that it was some kind of electrical experiment that tesla was conducting. If that's the case I wonder if it was EMP.

----------


## crashdive123

Probably one of the early batteries for Tesla Motors. :Innocent:

----------


## SARKY

Being on rubber tires, I thought a car wasn't grounded.
In the pre 80 something cars wouldn't an EMP still fry the condenser and possibly the coil?
I have 2 electric fuel pumps mounted on boards and wired up to plug into the cigarette lighter of my vehicles, with enough hose to get down into the gas station fuel tanks. One is for gas while the other is for diesel.

----------


## kyratshooter

> While the recent flares didn't went mostly unnoticed in North America, it seems that in some places that was not the case.
> 
> http://news.discovery.com/space/sola...on-110217.html
> 
> http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...111256/1/.html


Thing is the "difficulty" with radio signils in one area of southern China is not quite TEOTWAWKI.  They are probably not even using isnsulated cables there yet!  One reason the CME of the 1800s in our country was so influentual was that absolutely nothing was sheilded by insulation in any form.  Thousands of miles of bare copper wire was acting as an antenna.  

The Tunguska event is pretty much accepted as a meteor strike.  No mystery there anymore.

----------


## Rick

The electronics in your car is surrounded by metal.......a great big Faraday cage. Unless you're driving a Corvette of course in which case you spent waaaay too much money to get hosed. 

I don't know about that whole meteor strike in Siberia. I read on www.truestuffonthenet.com that a local village ran out of everything to eat but Borscht so everyone in the village had Borscht for dinner. The cabbage started working overnight and the next day...Kaboom! The only thing left was one badly shaking dog and a blind donkey. Actually, the donkey wasn't really blind he was just too scared to open his eyes.

----------


## Wildthang

Well a lot of high voltage transmission lines are uninsulated, and a huge very powerful EMP could take some station transformers off line, but I doubt that a normal magnitude EMP from the sun would ever take our entire grid down. Now if they start launching nuclear EMP devices, we are in deep stuff regardless.
I am much more worried about the economy than EMP's right now!

----------


## hunter63

I still swear that I was hit by a EMP at the house, as when I returned for Louisiana last winter. 
Garage door opener wouldn't work, several lights out in garage, both vehicles in garage batteries were dead....What a PITA.

----------


## Daniel Nighteyes

> I still swear that I was hit by a EMP at the house, as when I returned for Louisiana last winter. 
> Garage door opener wouldn't work, several lights out in garage, both vehicles in garage batteries were dead....What a PITA.


Sounds like Gremlins to me (the creatures, not the cars)... :W00t: 

Another thought:  Does Ferris Buehler live or vacation in the vicinity? :FRlol:

----------


## hunter63

> Sounds like Gremlins to me (the creatures, not the cars)...
> 
> Another thought:  Does Ferris Buehler live or vacation in the vicinity?


Actually just down the road.......as do the Blues Brothers......

Gremlins were made here, and still a lot's around.......

----------


## Allen Currie Author

Kyrat
Even where I am at there isn't a light bulb within 10km, and I certainly wouldn't test there if I do at all. And the reason I would test is that I'm not positive it would work. I know how unreliable theories are. I doubt the explosion would take out more than one or two trees. Fear of forest fire would be one of the larger concerns. Every explosion creates at least a very small emp. The trick is to magnify it. Yes Rick, there are reasons not to particularly fear man made EMPs. But that very weakness can be turned into a strength.

Allen

----------


## Rick

WT - It really doesn't matter if a wire is insulated or not. The only real reason for insulation is to prevent grounding or a short. Transmission lines are such high voltage that insulation wouldn't mean anything anyway. All you have to do to induce voltage is place the wire within the magnetic field of a "source". Voltage will then travel one way or the other depending on the difference in potential. You can flat get your willies knocked off if you are working underneath a transmission line whether it's TV or Phone. Remove the ground strap and you get a beautiful blue arc suitable for scarring even the older kids among us. 

We've had in depth conversations about EMP on a couple of other threads. The gist is that the only time you see damage on the grid from a solar emp event is when there is a problem with a component (broken insulator, etc). The over voltage causes problems at the location only. In the past, that has triggered systematic shut downs and associated blackouts. Those were automatic and built into the grid. A multitude of changes have been made based on things learned from past events.

----------


## crashdive123

....and while a cascading event could take down a large area of the grid, as Rick said - changes and lessons learned will help to ensure that those outages are recoverable within a relatively short period of time.

----------


## Wildthang

Rick there are a lot of high voltage circuits that use shielded dielectric insulation, but most of those are underground, in raceways, and inside switchgear. I know that induced voltages will affect insulated transmission lines as well as bare conductors. It is the long expanses of transmission lines that help build up the magnitude of an induced voltage, by increasing the exposure to the magnetic impulse.
Modern protective relaying will normally react very quickly when a curcuit is taken off line and return power to the grid.

----------


## hunter63

Personally I would be interested to know just how basic a vehicle would have to be to avoid having a possible problems with EMP.

Now MY reasoning would be,.... say if I was to find, say... an older jeep Cj5...... with a few mods, as a BOV (yeah, that's the ticket, BOV...read fun truck here)....that I could pass off as a 'prepper gotta have"....not that I personally "need" permission, but for all those poor suckers that still have to justify a stuff like this.

So I'm thinking a big 6, (maybe snall block v8) normally aspirated, a points and coil ignition....jack job, 36" buck-shots...ROP.......
I'm gonna like this EMP prep........I think?

Maybe not quite this extensive.....LOL.....
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Rick

Pretty darn basic.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Wildthang

I have a sheet metal pole barn, and anything parked in there would basically be immune to EMP's. So I should still have 2 motorcycles, and 2 ATV's ready to do, but I really doubt that an EMP would immobilize a car or truck in good condition.

----------


## Wildthang

> Personally I would be interested to know just how basic a vehicle would have to be to avoid having a possible problems with EMP.
> 
> Now MY reasoning would be,.... say if I was to find, say... an older jeep Cj5...... with a few mods, as a BOV (yeah, that's the ticket, BOV...read fun truck here)....that I could pass off as a 'prepper gotta have"....not that I personally "need" permission, but for all those poor suckers that still have to justify a stuff like this.
> 
> So I'm thinking a big 6, (maybe snall block v8) normally aspirated, a points and coil ignition....jack job, 36" buck-shots...ROP.......
> I'm gonna like this EMP prep........I think?
> 
> Maybe not quite this extensive.....LOL.....
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Get the most basic of them all, a horse and buggy :Smartass:

----------


## whitis

Contrary to the assertion above, the power companies have not learned from past mistakes.   The grid is known to be vulnerable, today.  And contrary to another assertion above, we are not talking about short term power outages.

A strategically placed high altitude EMP optimized relatively low yield nuke can create damaging emp levels throughout most of the US.  You don't need three or high yield.  Intense geomagnetic storms can have a similar effect.   A storm capable of causing extensive damage to the power grid is highly likely within the next few decades with 2013 being particularly risky.   The threat of naturally occurring "EMP" is considered greater than the terrorist/enemy state threat.   The sun is the ultimate nuclear power.

EMP or geomagnetic storms can push transformers in the power grid into saturation, resulting in their destruction.  It takes around 15months to get replacement transformers, today; in the event of a widespread EMP event, it would be much worse - we would have to build new factories to make all the replacement transformers needed.  It will take an estimated  4-10 years to repair the grid.  Here is a map of the percentage of transformers expected to be destroyed in each state by a geomagnetic storm.  Six states will only lose single digit percentages. Half a dozen states lose over half of their transformers.  One state will lose 97%. My state loses 47%. Most of the east coast and northern states get hammered bad.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook/12507/png/79.png


A faraday cage does not necessarily have to be grounded.   It does need to be fully enclosed on all sides with conductive seams and have proper conductive gaskets or metal fingers on the edges of all openings.    The passenger compartment of a car is not a faraday cage (if it was, your cell phone would never work inside).  Windows and lack of conductive seals on doors make it ineffective.   However, the ignition system on the car is itself a source of  EMP like emissions so critical car electronics tend to be designed to withstand high voltage spikes.   A metal pole barn is not likely to have the gapless electrical connection needed between the walls and ground (which in this case is the bottom of the "cage") and welded seams between the walls and roof.  An ammo can does not have proper conductive seal between the walls and lid.   Without the proper connections between the 6 sides of an alleged faraday cage, it not only can fail to stop EMP but portions of the "cage" can act as an antenna making things worse.  TV, ham radio, CB, and FM radio antennas and power lines, cable tv, and phone lines can also act as antennas bringing EMP inside even structures which are safe.   A 1 meter length of wire is enough to bring 10,000 to 50,000 volts inside in an EMP event or destroy electronics inside an unshielded structure.   Many connecting cables (power cords, USB, HDMI, DVI, phone, ethernet, RS-232, IEEE-488, firewire, cell phone charger, etc) are 1 meter or longer.

The inverse square law does not cause EMP to drop off rapidly with distance as you might expect.   The earth's magnetic field affects the results, among other things. Also, the effect is integrated across the height of the atmosphere.  As a result, the dropoff from a high altitude burst seems to be roughly inversely proportional to distance rather than the square of distance.  And the magnetic conjugate affect can cause damage at large distance similar to that under the blast.

Most cars are expected, by a simple minded interpretation of the study results, to be able to operate after EMP after restarting and/or disconnecting  battery.   However, many cars being driven at the time will temporarily malfunction and this is expected to cause multi-car accidents, disabling more vehicles and blocking roads.  Also, note that in testing they increased EMP until the car malfunctioned, then stopped.   So the percentage of cars which continue to be operable (after restart) may be highly exaggerated since most test vehicles where never exposed to full strength EMP - especially those which were most vulnerable.

It has been said that a broken micowave oven with the power cord cut off (cover the cord entry hole with metal foil tape) would make a good faraday cage for EMP protection of personal electronics (since it is carefully designed to contain microwaves which are particularly troublesome).   I found, however, that when I put an FM radio inside my microwave oven (still plugged in) that it still was able to receive broadcast stations (inside a house with aluminum siding and metal window screens).  The door seal is largely capacitive and not so effective at lower frequencies.   Still, likely to be more effective than most attempts to build your own -it is almost a nested double faraday cage and is  at least effective at some frequencies which is better than most lay attempts would be.  Sealing the door shut with metal tape would help some as would wrapping with overlapping aluminum foil.  Note that the oxide layer on aluminum interferes with a proper conductive path across seams.  And paint and non-conductive tape adhesive also interfere.   Better, yet, strip the paint off down to bare metal and use conductive adhesive copper tape to seal the door on all sides and cover the front panel.  I did this FM radio test after an aluminum clipboard case (inside which i keep some ham radio gear) flunked a similar test, as expected (lack of EMI gasketting on lid).    

Whole house surge supressors installed in the breaker panel plus local power line surge supressors on electonics and EMP arrestors on phone lines, cable tv, and exterior ham/cb/fm/tv antennas (which all need to be brought in, grounded, and surge surpressed next to the breaker panel) with added ground rods installed at the entry point and properly connected with straps to a single point ground at the circuit breaker panel should improve your odds some in areas where the EMP is not too severe.  Even so, all connections to the outside world as well as connections between equipment inside your house are a vulnerability.

Installed photovoltaic systems, as opposed to those stored disconnected inside a faraday cage, are also at risk.
Note that batteries need to be charged periodically, however, or they will be permanently damaged by self discharge.  Even the solar cells themselves are potentially vulnerable; they are semiconductor junctions themselves and can withstand limited reverse voltage and can be damaged just by shading a portion of the array (bypass diodes help with this but are themselves vulnerable) while other portions are generating power.  The panels have a large surface area to collect the falling emp charge.  Charge controllers and inverters are electronic devices which can be susceptible.  Long wires may interconnect parts of the system.   Grid-tie systems connect to the power grid.   Lightning strikes, somewhat similar to EMP, are the major cause of solar system failure.  Improper grounding of the system is usually implicated.   The good news is that good lightning protection design helps resist EMP but lightning arrestors may not be fast enough to protect against EMP which requires response times almost a thousand times faster.

It is very hard to find good quality information on EMP protection - even if you are an electrical engineer.
I am an EE and have experience with circuit design, solid state systems, high voltage, high current, high power, lightning protection, RF shielding, transformers, ham radio/emergency communications, astrophysics, satellites, military electronics, alternative energy, motor control, electric vehicles, repair, failure and reliability analysis, etc.   I take the threat of EMP and geomagnetic storms very seriously.

----------


## Rick

I would humbly suggest that a nuclear device large enough to cripple the power grid would most likely leave us .... dead. In which case the grid is the least of my worries. 

I would also like to see your reference on the six months required to build a transformer. Unless your reference is to extremely large sub-station transformers and even then I'd be shocked at that time frame. 

The rest is purely hypothetical except to say that the EMPs that have caused damage to date have not caused massive damage. They generally have affected a single or a few components that were already in disrepair, which resulted in a planned and controlled shut down of the grid. 

You actually have no practical references to claim that outages will be long term since none exist. And to say that power companies (or any company) has not learned from it's past mistakes is somewhat short sited. Not only are these types of events costly in terms of repair but also in terms of lost revenue. They also draw the ire of governing bodies as well as citizen groups that force changes. My experience has been it's much easier to make the correction up front than to have to deal with state commerce commissions or the FCC, which tend to go a bit overboard. 

An outage the scale that you are talking about is never a single cause event. It is, rather, a series of events, often involving human error, that cascade into a large scale event. Here is a link to a perfect example. If you scan down the page you'll see the time line. Look at all the events that occurred that tied what should have been isolated incidents into a large scale blackout. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northea...ence_of_events

Incidentally, a post mortem is generally conducted on any large scale event in order to determine the cause(s). That post mortem will also include corrections to preclude future events from occurring. 

Finally, your reference to surge suppressors, even following single point grounding in accordance with federal electrical standards offer little protection against anything other than minor voltage fluctuations, which is what they were designed for. Lightening or a large emp event of any source can and will overwhelm any protection device installed by any company. I've replaced a lot of wiring that contained no metal because lightening had passed through or circumvented protection devices and melted all the metal inside the insulation. Since an EMP device induces current flow it would do so on both sides of the protection device rendering the device invisible to the EMP source.

----------


## Rick

Whitis - I took some time to download and read through the document you referenced above. It makes some fascinating reading but it failed to include some important resources that are currently in place. 

1. Almost all power companies have mobile transformers that they can use while substations are being worked on either for upgrade, expansion or repair. Those mobile transformers could be used where outages occur in the 300 projected transformers referenced in the study. If a power company does not have enough mobile units they can call on other companies, even across country, to provide mobile units as well as manufacturers and equipment leasing companies that specialize in leasing long term power solutions. 

2. Their reference to 12 month lead times on manufacturing is under normal conditions. There are also hot spares programs in place that circumvent that process. If Company A has a planned expansion and will be installing a substation their order has already been placed with the manufacturer for the transformer(s). That transformer is already in process or may have been completed and be ready to ship. If Company B experiences a failure they can call the manufacturer and requisition Company A's transformer. It's just how the business works and Company B pays a premium to the manufacturer to be able to do that. If the transformer has been completed it is shipped to company B and Company A is first on the list to receive the next one manufactured. If it's in production phase then it's shipped when completed and Company A is still first on the list. If it's a massive outage that requires multiple transformers (as in a tornado or hurricane) then Company A is shoved down the list until Company B's needs are met. Maintenance takes precedence over upgrade and expansion. I've had to shut down projects before because I was in Company A's position and some outage in another company took my gear. I was always fortunate enough and we were big enough that I never had to invoke a hot spare for a project. We always had spares in place. But transformers, mainframe computers and servers all operate with a hot spares program. 

Finally, I had to read the study with a bit of a jaundiced eye. Metatech Corporation, which helped develop the study, suggested the installation of filters and transient suppressors to reduce the incidence of damage. 

*"With respect to the entire grid, remedial measures to reduce GIC levels are needed and are cost-effective. The installation of supplemental transformer neutral ground resistors to reduce GIC flows is relatively inexpensive, has low engineering trade-offs, and can produce 60-70 percent reductions of GIC levels for storms of all sizes."*

It should be noted that Metatech was in the business of manufacturing EMI and transient suppressors through their commercial products division. They've since sold that business to Quell Corporation.

----------


## kyratshooter

> Kyrat
> Even where I am at there isn't a light bulb within 10km, and I certainly wouldn't test there if I do at all. And the reason I would test is that I'm not positive it would work. I know how unreliable theories are. I doubt the explosion would take out more than one or two trees. Fear of forest fire would be one of the larger concerns. Every explosion creates at least a very small emp. The trick is to magnify it. Yes Rick, there are reasons not to particularly fear man made EMPs. But that very weakness can be turned into a strength.
> 
> Allen


If you test an EMP device in an area where there is not a light bulb within 10 KM you will still not know if it works!!  Would you happen to be interested in an buying some swamp land in Florida?  We are presently developing the technology to drain it, it just has not been done yet.  Sale price will be computed based on the anticipated value of the swamp after the technology is developed.  Get back to me on the deal the next trip you make to McDonalds for the free internet.

If your device does work you are missing out on a fortune!  The U.S. Army would pay big bucks for a portable device that would shut down a simple car engine as it approached a checkpoint after being told to hault.  Presently we have to shut the engines down using .30 or .50 caliber machine gun bullets and a directed EMP device would save a lot of lives.  I would have that thing patanted and in front of the DOD by sunset!


I feel we should instate some prerequisites to pass before posting any EMP thread or response.

First, if you are a believer you must own a horse and buggy in good usible condition and have at least a half acre of garden planted.  A fully shielded off grid retreat home must be shown (this must be more than a shack in the woods).  Their year of supplies must be accomplished as well as a year of emergency income.    

Second, you must understand what EMP is, how it is created and its actual capabilities at this point in history.

Third, anyone claiming to have an EMP device must show proof it works, verified by the highest LEO of their district that they have knocked power out in a purposeful way and paid for the resulting damages.  The test must include more than an AM radio exibiting static.

----------


## Rick

Would a prison sentence suffice as proof it worked?

----------


## Rick

And before I get lambasted....There is a huge difference between the amount of time it takes to manufacture an item and the amount of time the manufacturing process takes. If that doesn't make sense then consider that "six months to manufacture a transformer" implies that someone is working on it for six months. A six month manufacturing process means from the time the order is taken until the item is shipped. That does not mean that folks are working on it the entire six months. Huge difference.

----------


## whitis

> I would humbly suggest that a nuclear device large enough to cripple the power grid would most likely leave us .... dead. In which case the grid is the least of my worries.


False.   Starfish prime caused emp damage 900 miles away.   EMP levels were actually low (about 12% of the levels expected from an emp weapon) but if the burst had been more stragecally placed they would have been much higher.   There were many nuclear tests conducted without killing large numbers of people.   The circumstances which result in large numbers of deaths and those that generate widespread EMP are different.




> I would also like to see your reference on the six months required to build a transformer. Unless your reference is to extremely large sub-station transformers and even then I'd be shocked at that time frame.


I didn't say 6 months, I said longer.  And my statement was consistent with many of the major studies of effects of EMP on the grid.  A source I linked to above(National Acadamy Press)  said repairs could take 4-10 years.   Also, if you can make 9 babies in 9 months it doesn't mean you can make 1 baby in 1 month.    Here is a quote from the 197 page Mastech report:



> The failure of many large EHV transformers and the need to suddenly replace a large
> number of them has not been previously contemplated by the U.S. electric power
> industry. Under normal conditions, the purchase placement of a single EHV transformer
> order in the 300-400MVA class has normally been quoted as taking up to 15 months for
> manufacture and test. For larger sizes of transformers and transformers with special
> reactance or tap-changer requirements, several months may need to be added to the above
> mentioned figure, and the suitability of qualified manufacturers may be more limited.





> The rest is purely hypothetical except to say that the EMPs that have caused damage to date have not caused massive damage. They generally have affected a single or a few components that were already in disrepair, which resulted in a planned and controlled shut down of the grid.


So far, we have been lucky in the game of EMP russian roulette.  Our lucky streak is not likely to continue.

The power grid is a relatively new development in human history.   A century ago only a small portion of the US population had access to electricity.    And the latter half of that history, as the grid got more complex, happened to coincide with a a relatively calm period in terms of geomagnetic storms.     The 1989 storm completely destroyed just 1 big transformer but it caused 11 others to fail later.  The 1982-07-13 storm missed us by about 6-7 hours (i.e. it affected other parts of the world more than here).   When simulations shift the storm to occur on our side of the world, the stresses on the power grid are 3-6 times worse.  A 4800nT/min storm (equivalent of what already happened in 1921 when we did not have much of a grid) at 50 degrees latitude produces stress on the grid  that is 11 times higher than the 1989 storm.   The 1989 storm did produce ground currents in Japan that if the happened in the US puts 42 500kV transformers (89% of capacity) in one category in the state of virgina alone) at risk of destruction (levels which have actually destroed transformers).  A 2003 storm took out 14 400kV transformers in the tiny country of south africa at the tiny level of 100nT/min.   Most of our transformer capacity is 30-40 years old.




> You actually have no practical references to claim that outages will be long term since none exist. And to say that power companies (or any company) has not learned from it's past mistakes is somewhat short sited. Not only are these types of events costly in terms of repair but also in terms of lost revenue. They also draw the ire of governing bodies as well as citizen groups that force changes. My experience has been it's much easier to make the correction up front than to have to deal with state commerce commissions or the FCC, which tend to go a bit overboard.


If a major portion of the grid is damaged it will take a very long time to repair and I have provided multiple references for that.    There won't be enough mobile spares to go around.   The mastech report also notes that the eastern US grid uses many different designs of transformer making stocking spares more difficult.   And there would not be enough transformers in the production pipeline to replace the large numbers of units predicted to be destroyed in a severe EMP event.

You give the corporations too much credit.   The S&L crisis, the banking collapse, and the collapse of the auto industry are a few examples of how corporations ignored very foreseable and inevitible risks and then depended on government bailouts.   It wasn't in BP's financial interest to disregard the safegards which lead to the deepwater horizon blowout, either.




> An outage the scale that you are talking about is never a single cause event. It is, rather, a series of events, often involving human error, that cascade into a large scale event. Here is a link to a perfect example. If you scan down the page you'll see the time line. Look at all the events that occurred that tied what should have been isolated incidents into a large scale blackout. 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northea...ence_of_events


In the case of EMP, many causes can have a single root cause.   If our systems fall apart due to isolated independent failures, a coordinated series of failures is much worse.




> Incidentally, a post mortem is generally conducted on any large scale event in order to determine the cause(s). That post mortem will also include corrections to preclude future events from occurring.


The major reports on EMP type events show that the grid is at risk.   




> Finally, your reference to surge suppressors, even following single point grounding in accordance with federal electrical standards offer little protection against anything other than minor voltage fluctuations, which is what they were designed for. Lightening or a large emp event of any source can and will overwhelm any protection device installed by any company. I've replaced a lot of wiring that contained no metal because lightening had passed through or circumvented protection devices and melted all the metal inside the insulation. Since an EMP device induces current flow it would do so on both sides of the protection device rendering the device invisible to the EMP source.


Serious lightning grade surge supression can significantly reduce the risk  of damage.  An intense direct strike will overwelm most lightning supression.   But grounding done merely in accordance  weak standards would be laughable in terms of serious lightning protection.    Most damage is caused by less severe lightning events.
There are systems that survive frequent direct strikes.   Arrestors with 300kA rating (extreme positive llightning) are made. Here is an example of a ham radio station that survives monthly direct hits: http://www.w8ji.com/station_ground.htm
Lightning or EMP spikes can be induced in wiring inside the building which is one of the reasons to have supressors at the equipment as well as at the point of entry.

Mastech report:
http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/geomag.pdf

----------


## Rick

Uncle.....you win. Believe as you will. I have no intention of debating the theoretical.

----------


## hunter63

Haven't y'all heard, gonna be a super volcano, not an EMP.....saw it on the TV.

----------


## Wildthang

Well if we had an EMP at the same time as a polar magnetic shift, the entire earth would become a permanent magnet generator, and nothing would be safe!

----------


## Rick

Can you hang a permanent magnet generator on the fridge? The grand kids love playing with that stuff.

----------


## Thaddius Bickerton

TO me emp is kind of like reading how to make a fire, until you experience either one, or someone else does, it is all pretty much theory.

Thus I tend to prepare for the worst that could happen and hope for the best.  If I'm ready for everything I can be to go wrong in an EMP event (man or nature) then anything else should be manageable.

However, Thank you for that link, and I have bookmarked it and will slowly wade through it.  More importantly I have a fellow I know who may be able to follow it and apply his considerable knowledge to this and evaluate the evaluators if that makes sense.

When someone issues a report I kind of look it like the fully informed jury, I want to know the specifics, but I also want to judge the law, or in this case the people and  reasoning behind those making this report.

Unfortunately I have found that sometimes agendas can effect what goes into reports, and the current crop of global warming people who are found to have faked evidence is on my mind when any study now comes out.

The scientific community has played little boy who cried wolf quite a few times, and now I think I am from MO and need a "show me" thing to be satisfied.  

I do try to not let that creep into my day to day doings, but doubt is a hard monster to conquer.

Thanks for sharing 

Thad.

----------

