# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Making Stuff >  your favorite survival rifle?

## fishpole

just curiouse as to what your prefered firearm is for survival. maybe the one you keep in your truck or in you pack when in the wilderness, whatever it may be. 
currently ive taken to carrying a AR-7 in .22 cal. it is extremely light, the barrel, action, and magazine collapse into into the stock and is easy to conceal/carry. i keep it in my pack on hikes and canoe trips, in the truck, and even bring it to deer camp for plinking a rabbit for the pot. its just a great rifle to have around. 
ive used to take a variety of small game and it is a real tack driver even with the peep sights. woodchucks, squirrels, rabbits are all critters that have been taken with the little guy. believe it or not my dad even took a javelina with one during some times in texas when he was in need of meat badly and short on cash. its a great little rifle to have around for whenever you need it. fits my needs perfectly. 
ive also shot an SU-16 made by keltec and liked the way it shot. i believe it was chambered in .223 and was also colapsible. a friend of mine kept it in his truck all the time and more than once kept the coyotes away from his livestock with. also i good little gun but i could never justify it for me as the .223 seemed a little overkill for my needs, with in most cases is simple small game.
i understand that as we all live in very different area's the needs of a rifle will change from person to person, so this isnt a "what the best" kind of thing, just a whats your prefered survival rifle?
 lets here it!
-cory

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## Dave Johns

The Su-16 seems like a pretty cool piece. But in all honesty, I don't have a "survival" rifle, so I, too, look forward to the responses to this thread.  In a survival situation, I plan on snaring and fishing for small game, and larger game (if it is to be found) I have several different loads for my shotgun. 

In a real TSHTF, I really dont think I want to advertise my position with a loud bang, yanno?

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## sgtdraino

> currently ive taken to carrying a AR-7 in .22 cal. it is extremely light, the barrel, action, and magazine collapse into into the stock and is easy to conceal/carry.


Interesting, I hadn't really ever looked at this gun before! Looked it up on wikipedia, sounds interesting. Apparently the newer Henry versions are of pretty good quality, too. Wikipedia did say something about the action not working with low velocity ammo, but that standard or high velocity ammo can warp the barrel. ???

If you think the SU-16 is neat, you should check this out:

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su22.htm

Same thing, but in .22lr. I'd really like to know if this is a reliable gun, as it seems like it would be a really handy survival rifle if it is reliable.

I myself am presently favoring a lever-action .357 magnum. I like being able to use rounds that are interchangeable between my rifle and revolver, and I feel like .357 magnum has some pretty good performance for its size.

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## huntermj

Not necessarily a survival rifle but my favorite rifle is a Savage model 8 single shot made about 1950, 22" barrel and drives a tack at 100 yards. Picked it up at a local gun shop for 45 bucks refinished the stock and blued the barrel. I really like using short rounds they make no more sound then a pellet gun.

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## Sourdough

I have a SEARS "Craftsman" Tack Hammer it drives tacks at arms length. Works better than most rifles for driving tacks. And if a tack needs to be driven at 100 yards, you just walk 100 yards and drive some tacks. She is a real tack driver..... :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

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## chiye tanka

:Cool:  Hopeak, not THOSE kinda tacks! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## tsitenha

Mine is a Cooey single shot that has had a peep sight installed. A lot of us have similar rifles, inexpensive and easy to maintain, reliable as the day is long.
I also carry a .308 win bolt for bigger animals.

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## Sarge47

I find it interesting that Sgt. Draino hadn't been aware of the AR-7 since it started out back in the 50's as the AR-5; a bolt-action Survival Rifle for the military; more specifically, for SAC.(Strategic Air Command.)  It chambered the .22 Hornet round.  If anyone cares to do a search, we've done quite a bit on Survival guns, including the AR-7.  I personally own the Henry model & my kid brother owns one made by Charter Arms.  However, in any "long-term" survival situation, a gun is only good as long as the ammo holds out; then it's just an expensive club. :EEK!:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Cool:

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## Sarge47

Check these out: :Cool: 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...earchid=624593

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## Sourdough

CZ-452 in .22 Magnum w/Weaver Rail & 1.5-5X Leupold w/QR rings.

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## muddyredneck

i would have to say my sks cheap and easy

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## fishpole

what caliber is an SKS? .30/06 correct?

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## fishpole

oh and hopeak i gotta say that i absolutely love the .22 magnum, and yes i love it more than the newer .17 HMR, match, and fireball. i have a bolt action marlin in .22 magnum and it can work wonders on all manner of game. i have taken coyotes with it even, keep your shots to within 100 yrds and your good to go. 
i do not advocate in anyway doing this but i have heard several people mention that the gun is capable of taking deer sized game. ive heard conservation officers swear they hate this caliber because of its relative cheap and easy ammo/ rifle combo and it's ability to take game out of season. ive also heard the poachers say the same thing, but who knows those guy "say" alot of things.
all and all its my favorite caliber for all around use, dont think the AR-7 comes in .22 mag though.
-cory

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## trax

> what caliber is an SKS? .30/06 correct?


you can get them in different calibrations, corey. 7.62x39mm (.308 _ish_  :Smile: ) are very common.

.22 magnum should drop a deer, illegal as **** any place I've ever hunted, but in a true "I've gotta kill that thing to eat situation"....I don't discourage it.

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## Sourdough

Why is it that when people think survival firearm, that they see them self eating deer meat only forever. Think of it this way. I am going to drop you off in the wilderness, and you will be killed if you come out of said wilderness in less than 5 years. Everything is supplied but food. Hunt or die. there are more hawks, owls, robins, blue jays, snakes, gofers, woodchucks, rabbits, kitty cats, dogs, rats, squirrels, etc than deer or elk.

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## Sourdough

What I see most days, that is edible is ravens/crows, Bald Eagles, Golden Eagles, small birdies.

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## fishpole

although i do agree with that, one elk or deer can save you alot of time an energy hunting smaller game. i see where you are coming from though. personally i would take a deer come winter when their are other things that need doing or when hunting becomes harder. thats just me, good point though.
-cory

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## Rick

There have been a couple of these, "favorite survival rifle" threads. Here is another one: 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...survival+rifle

Mine would be the Ruger 10/22.

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## HOP

I have a Henry Golden boy 22 that is real handy Will take shorts, longs and long rifle, but my all time favorite is my Stevens over and under 410/.22 I just love this gun and you can put some slugs and buckshot and bird shot through the 410  and again most .22 shorts and long rifle. in the .22.

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## fishpole

you sure that golden boy will take all the .22 rounds? i heard ya cant switch shorts longs and mag's around in the same gun. just what i heard though.golden boy is lever gun right?

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## HOP

Fishpole it won't take mags that is why I did not mention them , yes it is a levergun. It Will also fire the Little squib rounds that have no powder although care should be taken with them to make sure they actually go down range.

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## FVR

Well, I usually venture into the woods with a 22 WMR revolver with a 4.5" barrel and a hundred or so rounds.

For around here, it'll take care of business.  But, I wonder how a 22WMR would do on a mountain lion?  Seems we have them migrating in from somewhere.  Gent just killed one on the Ga. / Alabama border.

That throws a stick in the spokes.

Not much on carrying rifles if I don't have to.  Rather take a fishing pole.

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## Ole WV Coot

> Well, I usually venture into the woods with a 22 WMR revolver with a 4.5" barrel and a hundred or so rounds.
> 
> For around here, it'll take care of business.  But, I wonder how a 22WMR would do on a mountain lion?  Seems we have them migrating in from somewhere.  Gent just killed one on the Ga. / Alabama border.
> 
> That throws a stick in the spokes.
> 
> Not much on carrying rifles if I don't have to.  Rather take a fishing pole.


We are getting lots of strange critters around here also. Never had rattlesnakes when I was a kid either or coyotes. Seen a wildcat or two. I don't care for carrying a long gun either. For all I know they could be stocking these critters from populated places.

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## trax

> although i do agree with that, one elk or deer can save you alot of time an energy hunting smaller game. i see where you are coming from though. personally i would take a deer come winter when their are other things that need doing or when hunting becomes harder. thats just me, good point though.
> -cory


If you're in a 'stuck out in the bush' for whatever reason situation cory, also think meat storage. Killing it is easier than keeping it. There are threads here on the subject and you might have mastered those skills, I don't know, just a point.

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## trax

> Not necessarily a survival rifle but my favorite rifle is a Savage model 8 single shot made about 1950, 22" barrel and drives a tack at 100 yards. ..


Memo to self: do not ask this man to hang  pictures on my walls.  :Big Grin:

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## Rick

To your point, Coot. More and more folks are acquiring exotic animals only to turn them loose once they realize they can't take care of them or the "new" wears off. You really never know what you might run into out the woods any more. If someone says they saw a black panther. Who knows? Maybe they did.

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## Sarge47

> Why is it that when people think survival firearm, that they see them self eating deer meat only forever. Think of it this way. I am going to drop you off in the wilderness, and you will be killed if you come out of said wilderness in less than 5 years. Everything is supplied but food. Hunt or die. there are more hawks, owls, robins, blue jays, snakes, gofers, woodchucks, rabbits, kitty cats, dogs, rats, squirrels, etc than deer or elk.


...horses, cattle, sheep, pigs, longhorns, mules, donkeys, your hunting partner :EEK!: ,
Reindeer,(actually saw some of these kept by a farmer up north of here recently), Llamas, etc.. :Cool:

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## huntermj

if you must know, i have other firearms but me and that little 22. have something special. My SKS , i could not hit the side of a barn with but my Savage at 50 yards i don't even think about it, i just look at what i want to hit and its done. at a 100 yards it just takes extra takes a second. O.K. driving a
tack is just an expression, The rifle is capable  of doing this but i am not. At least not every time. I know this may sound weird but the the first time i walked into that gun store and touched that rifle i knew we belonged toghter

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## Sarge47

> I know this may sound weird but the the first time i walked into that gun store and touched that rifle i knew we belonged together


Wierd?  Nah!  Kinky?  Well....(Theme from "Brokeback Mountain plays softly in the back ground.) Yeah, I hear you, it's hard to find a friend of that "caliber." (Music ends, we hear Marine "Boots" chanting:  "This is my rifle!  There are many like it, but this one is MINE!")  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Sourdough

> Well, I usually venture into the woods with a 22 WMR revolver with a 4.5" barrel and a hundred or so rounds.
> 
> For around here, it'll take care of business.  But, I wonder how a 22WMR would do on a mountain lion?  Seems we have them migrating in from somewhere.  Gent just killed one on the Ga. / Alabama border.
> 
> That throws a stick in the spokes.
> 
> Not much on carrying rifles if I don't have to.  Rather take a fishing pole.



One of my favorite firearms is my S&W model 17 that I reamed out to .22 magnum. it has a 8 3/8" barrel, TT,TH, TS (Target Trigger, Target Hammer & Target Sights). Drives "Tacks" at 400 yards away, if I am willing to walk 380 yards closer.

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## Gray Wolf

> If someone says they saw a black panther. Who knows? Maybe they did.


I saw one talking at a conference in Chicago.  :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

Yep, they were in Rochester, New York back in the 60's.

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## fishpole

huntermj,
sounds like you and your rifle have something beautiful, i hope to meet a rifle like that someday (sigh) lol...actually i do! my marlin bolt action .22 mag. is my significant other if you will lol!
-cory

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## Blood Groove

Rifle...I don't know. What I really would want for a fire-arm out in the woods would be my Winchester 870 12 gauge. I mean what's better than a shotgun in the woods. You can get fowl and Mammals! A shotgun is the perfect survival gun.

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## Sourdough

> Rifle...I don't know. What I really would want for a fire-arm out in the woods would be my Winchester 870 12 gauge. I mean what's better than a shotgun in the woods. You can get fowl and Mammals! A shotgun is the perfect survival gun.



The problem, is ONE 3" shotgun shell, weighs roughly the same as (50) .22LR cartridges. and the 50 .22LR cartridges are about the same size as one 3" shotgun shell. I can put 300 rounds of .22LR in each front pocket, try that with 3" shotgun shells.

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## Bibow

i think a 22 hornet or 223 is the best. you can carry alot of both. the 410 also seems pretty good if you think of it more of a rifle than a shotgun when your shooting birds because theres so little bbs in a 410 that you need to be smart with your shots. much easier to carry than a 12 but not as nice as a 22.

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## Sourdough

Question: when I think survival rifle, and all meat comes from the land. I think in terms of forever more, and atlest 10 years. You guys must think in terms of 10 hours or 10 days.

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## Sourdough

I don't see the survival rifle as the firearm I like. I like my .375 Holland & Holland, but for survival I want just barely enough power, and 10,000 rounds of ammo. As Sarge pointed out, once the ammo is gone, it is good for a jack handle.

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## Stony

i have a rossi ss in .22 with a .410 change barrel. this one takes .45 LC also.
that combo does the trick.

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## Runs With Beer

The 22 is king, Its cheap, Its everywhere, You can feed yourself, Keep away the bad guys, Ruger 10.22 Nuff said!

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## Sourdough

> The 22 is king, Its cheap, Its everywhere, You can feed yourself, Keep away the bad guys, Ruger 10.22 Nuff said!



Hard to build a case against the Ruger 10/22. It's only downfall is an awful trigger, miles of creep, and very heavy. It can be replaced. but the replacement cost as much as the whole rifle. Still if it is your choice and it is a keeper, a good trigger could be money well spent.

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## chiggersngrits

does anyone have any personal experience with keltec firearms? i have read some o.k. reveiws on them but don't know anybody who owns one. i saw one of the su-16b models for $570 the other day at a local shop, very light and took the ar 15 mags. i would prefer one in 7.62x39 that used ak mags.

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## fishpole

gosh love the idea of a .10/22...more than a .22 mag. and its been a long time before could think of something much better than a .22 mag. lol. but hey im partial as its my first gun, or first love should i say haha.
-cory

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## huntermj

> Wierd?  Nah!  Kinky?  Well....(Theme from "Brokeback Mountain plays softly in the back ground.) Yeah, I hear you, it's hard to find a friend of that "caliber." (Music ends, we hear Marine "Boots" chanting:  "This is my rifle!  There are many like it, but this one is MINE!")


Hay it gets lonely out there :Big Grin: 
You know the theme from Brokeback Mountain :EEK!:   :Big Grin:

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## Rick

> i have a rossi ss in .22 with a .410 change barrel. this one takes .45 LC also. that combo does the trick.


Hey! Aren't you the guy that said firearms should be banned?  The Feds should confiscate them? More regs against ownership? 




> I agree with Bragg's first post:
> firearms need to be more controled.
> mendatory safety training, safe storage, 
> background checks, 
> licesing of both gun owner and gun,
> confiscation (without compensation),
> caping the number of firearms a person can own (3?),
> caping of how much ammo a person can store, own or buy,
> continent wide prohibiting handgun use for hunting purposes,
> ...


It's looks like pepper spray, a stick and 911 on speed dial would be your perfect survival weapon.

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## trailhopper

Thompson Center Encore - .223 and 30.06 ammo is relativly easy to find and with it being a single shot it's easy to conserve ammo . the gun weights in at 6 1/2 pounds so you can carry it all day long.

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## Sarge47

> Hey! Aren't you the guy that said firearms should be banned?  The Feds should confiscate them? More regs against ownership? 
> 
> 
> 
> It's looks like pepper spray, a stick and 911 on speed dial would be your perfect survival weapon.


He's from Canada, so he's not qualified to speak out on American gun laws, in my opinion. :Cool: 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...5554#post35554

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## Sourdough

> Thompson Center Encore - .223 and 30.06 ammo is relativly easy to find and with it being a single shot it's easy to conserve ammo . the gun weights in at 6 1/2 pounds so you can carry it all day long.




A single shot firearm does "NOT" conserve ammo. Good shooting conserves ammo.

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## trailhopper

being a good shot will conserve ammo also when you have to make one shot count you really cant spray and pray with a single shot rifle.

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## Sourdough

Real hunters don't spray and pray.....you can put only one cartridge in any firearm and have a single shot. I generally carry my magazine firearms with no magazine, and the CZ's come with single loader magazines.

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## trailhopper

I think this topic has really taken a turn the topic was "Your favorite survival rifle" instead this has become a bash session.

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## Sourdough

> I think this topic has really taken a turn the topic was "Your favorite survival rifle" instead this has become a bash session.



Please explain: It is a forum, you took a position, either defend your position, or capitulate. You jump in with no introduction, Tell me why 30.06 will work better on blue jays and squirrels. Why it is more gooder to have a few cartridges, than a lot of cartridges.

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## nell67

trailhopper,I really don't see any bashing going on,hopeak is just explaining his point of view. How about heading over to the introduction thread and telling us a little about yourself?

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## chiye tanka

Get'em Nell. :Big Grin:

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## trailhopper

i took my position when i answered the topic of MY favorite rifle. in MY choosen calibers  .223 and 30.06 i didnt not critize or mean to if i did. i have seen way to many people go out buy a cetme or ar-15 and consider there selves as a survivalist and not even know how to shoot their weapon let alone try to survive with it. i would never consider a 30.06 for squirrel or blue jay unless need be and i would not have a problem being able to hit or harvast any animal i set out for.

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## FVR

Blah, blah, blah...............

This is like asking  "duh, what's the best duh, survival knife."  Your going to get answers from all over the place.

So ya make your statement, defend it, until ya gits tired and go to a new thread.

So that being said, anyone who does not think that a 22 is the best survival weapon, IS JUST PLAIN WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG.

So there.  Nananana  boobooo.

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## trax

See people? Like Frank just said, he used clear, concise, rational logic to make his point, vis: I'm right, you're wrong. You can't go wrong with nananana booboo to seal the argument. Way to tell 'em FVR, I bet you're gonna be just like Dad when you grow up. I hope I will.

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## Sarge47

1st, I give you're arguement a big 'ole rasberry!  :Stick Out Tongue:  2nd, like Nell said, git over to the "intro" section and tell us about yourself.  :Mad:  3rd, Hopeak is simply stating & defending his opinion, which he has every right to do. :Big Grin:   I happen to agree with him since to me it's the only LOGICAL choice.  Ammo cost, weight, and fire-power all are against you. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Now give us a good intro! :Cool:

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## Rick

I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self. - Aristotle.

I know that has nothing to do with the thread but everyone was posting such cool stuff I wanted to post something cool, too.

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## rebel

For myself, I want more than a single shot.  Just in case a bunch of Nananana Boobooo's come over the hill at the same time.

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## Rick

That would just be Frank and Trax. No worry, there.

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## crashdive123

I think Hope has it right.  If you like a single shot, just load one bullet.  Me, I prefer options.

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## Ole WV Coot

> See people? Like Frank just said, he used clear, concise, rational logic to make his point, vis: I'm right, you're wrong. You can't go wrong with nananana booboo to seal the argument. Way to tell 'em FVR, I bet you're gonna be just like Dad when you grow up. I hope I will.


That's what I like to see, clear and rational people like those two. We kicked this can before and think it was decided that a 10/22 was best for survival. That tiny piece of lead beats the dickens out of yelling BANG !. Saw a little spray and pray and I will admit it clears a path. You take their advice you may live long enough to thank them. Try a little common sense,  rifle without ammo equals club, now you done went back several thousand years.

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## JRJ

Marlin model 60 22lr w/scope and sling.  Ive taken everything up to white tail deer. 40 gr. copper is great but I have used 36 gr. lead hollow point plinking ammo and killed deer by placing a few rounds in the neck.  Ive had the gun over 18 years and it operates flawlessly in a texas summer or a michigan winter.

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## Rick

Kicked....this...can....before. Rifle....without....ammo....equals....club. I'm sure glad I'm writing these down. Gems I tell. Absolute gems.

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## Runs With Beer

I can dig that, Nice quote.

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## Runs With Beer

The best weapon is the one you have when you need it.

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## Gray Wolf

> Marlin model 60 22lr w/scope and sling.  Ive taken everything up to white tail deer. 40 gr. copper is great but I have used 36 gr. lead hollow point plinking ammo and killed deer by placing a few rounds in the neck.  Ive had the gun over 18 years and it operates flawlessly in a texas summer or a michigan winter.


Were those planed deer hunts with .22 (40gr copper and the 36gr. lead HP)? If so, and you weren't in a survival situation, that's sad. 
JMHO

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## rebel

> Kicked....this...can....before. Rifle....without....ammo....equals....club. I'm sure glad I'm writing these down. Gems I tell. Absolute gems.


I think someone is doing their homework for next years Cootism competition.  Don't think I'm not paying attention.

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## Rick

Ssssshhhh. I'm not going down with a fight.

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## Sarge47

> For myself, I want more than a single shot.  Just in case a bunch of Nananana Boobooo's come over the hill at the same time.


Ya durn straight!  Especially when they teamed up with the "Heathen Chinee Spambots," "TBWN", & those "Pygmies from down New Guinea way!" :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Blood Groove

> The problem, is ONE 3" shotgun shell, weighs roughly the same as (50) .22LR cartridges. and the 50 .22LR cartridges are about the same size as one 3" shotgun shell. I can put 300 rounds of .22LR in each front pocket, try that with 3" shotgun shells.


Ahh that's a good point, I never thought about the ammount of ammo that you could carry. Yea then I'd prabable want my pump action 22. Less complex than a semi auto 22 and it can hold more than 10 bullets. It also shoots 22 shorts as well as 22 long rifles.

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## klkak

> I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self. - Aristotle.
> 
> I know that has nothing to do with the thread but everyone was posting such cool stuff I wanted to post something cool, too.


I agree with you Rick but I also believe it has everything to do with this thread.

A man overcomes his desire to buy an AR because of hearing some b.s. from a bunch of fear mongers is a brave man. 

I agree with FVR about the .22. The only thing a person can do with a more powerful weapon then I with a .22 is make longer shots.

And for all the Nananana BoooBoooo's coming over the hill with AR's. Hit the Nananan in the head with the first shot.  When all the BooooBooo's stop to look at their dead Nananana, shoot another one in the head.  Most folks have no idea what to do at this point and either drop to the ground (where you can continue shooting more of them in the head) or they run. In which case you get up and go loot the bodies.

I have seen hundreds of Nananan Booooboooo's running around with M-16.  With the first shot or GBS they all stop running and lay down. Easy pickings. :Big Grin:

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## klkak

> Were those planed deer hunts with .22 (40gr copper and the 36gr. lead HP)? If so, and you weren't in a survival situation, that's sad. 
> JMHO


All right now. I resemble that.

Cep'n I only needed one round for each deer I killed. One 40gr pill to the eye or ear and it's all over. Course I was hunting at night and barefoot with a 2 D'cell chromed metal ray-o-vac flashlight. :Big Grin: 

My mom and siblings could sure go through some venison.  You'd a swore they had tape worms..............hmmmmm, maybe they did.  I remember my youngest sister used to talk to someone named molly when she was in the bathroom. I opened the door once. Other then her on the pot there was no one else in there.  :Confused:

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## Sourdough

> Ahh that's a good point, I never thought about the ammount of ammo that you could carry. Yea then I'd prabable want my pump action 22. Less complex than a semi auto 22 and it can hold more than 10 bullets. It also shoots 22 shorts as well as 22 long rifles.



Well, good for you BG, for seeing the light. You may not know this but even if .22 Shorts will not cycle through your Semi-Auto .22 and auto feed. You can still insert each cartridge by hand into the chamber, and hand eject spent case, in an emergency. 

I do not at this time own a pump-action .22 however I am shopping for a pump .22 magnum take down.

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## Rick

I've said this before but I'll repeat it here. In a true survival situation, I think a larger caliber weapon limits you on the game you go after. Unless you live in the bush, like Hopeak, where do you store an entire elk? Moose? And you certainly won't take a squirrel or rabbit or bird with a 5.56 round. At least you won't have much meat left if you do. 

My .22 can supply all the meat I need (assuming I can hit it), it's light, as Hopeak said, I can carry tons of ammo, can be used for self defense if need be, and is pretty inexpensive all around. What more could I ask for in a survival weapon?

Note to self: Never hit the ground when Klkak is shooting at me. He prefers a bit of a challenge.

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## crashdive123

> All right now. I resemble that.


I do believe it was in reference to the "multiple neck shots" comment.

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## Blood Groove

> Well, good for you BG, for seeing the light. You may not know this but even if .22 Shorts will not cycle through your Semi-Auto .22 and auto feed. You can still insert each cartridge by hand into the chamber, and hand eject spent case, in an emergency. 
> 
> I do not at this time own a pump-action .22 however I am shopping for a pump .22 magnum take down.


Yeah I've done that befoer with my 10/22 and .22 shorts. I forgot about that. A 22 pump is really fun to shoot. A pump 22 magum sounds like a great survival rifle.

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## JRJ

> I do believe it was in reference to the "multiple neck shots" comment.


Whats wrong with shooting your dinner multiple times in the neck?  Dead is dead.  I never had luck sinking a round through the eye at night, I figured I just suck at gaging how far away those blue/green pearls were from me.

As far as using a bigger round..  Ive been told you can "bark" squirrels.  Place a round an inch or so away and let the shrapnel kill the animal without damaging the meat with the actual bullet.

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## crashdive123

> Whats wrong with shooting your dinner multiple times in the neck?  Dead is dead.


My thinking is respect for the animal.  You are right, when you are putting food on the table dead is dead.  I personally am of the belief that if you are going to take an animal it should be as quickly as possible.  If that means getting closer to get the proper shot, then get closer.  If that means using a round more suited to the abilities of the shooter, then use the proper round.  I don't mean to sound preachy, those are just my thoughts since you asked.

----------


## trax

Crash, I don't much care if it sounds preachy, I have hunted for my food more than once in life, and your thoughts are right.

----------


## Cannonman17

> you can get them in different calibrations, corey. 7.62x39mm (.308 _ish_ ) are very common.
> 
> .22 magnum should drop a deer, illegal as **** any place I've ever hunted, but in a true "I've gotta kill that thing to eat situation"....I don't discourage it.


It's legal in Wisconsin. I don't know of anybody who has ever used that small of a gun for deer but if you want you can.

Survival rifle.. no question about it, a .22LR of just about any sort, as long as it's a weapon you're familiar with it's a good all around gun. Larger game, self defense call for different things but if I could only ever own one gun that would probably be it.

----------


## trax

Well see, I've never hunted in Wisconsin  :Big Grin: , but if you're inviting me down.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Cannonman17

The hunting here used to be MUCH better but since they (the DNR) have re introduced wolves and been trying to thin down the heard as fast as possible (to prevent the spread of CWD) by issuing virtually unlimited tags for $2.00 each over the past few years there are very few deer left. Musky fishing on the other hand is alive and well!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Gray Wolf

> I do believe it was in reference to the "multiple neck shots" comment.


Yes It Was!




> Originally Posted by JRJ  View Post
> Whats wrong with shooting your dinner multiple times in the neck? Dead is dead


Are you serious? What about snaring the deer, then clubbing it to death? That ok too?

----------


## klkak

> Originally Posted by klkak  
> All right now. I resemble that.





> Originally posted by Crashdive
> I do believe it was in reference to the "multiple neck shots" comment.


Oh, ok then.......,

----------


## klkak

> you can get them in different calibrations, corey. 7.62x39mm (.308 ish ) are very common.
> 
> .22 magnum should drop a deer, illegal as **** any place I've ever hunted, but in a true "I've gotta kill that thing to eat situation"....I don't discourage it.





> It's legal in Wisconsin. I don't know of anybody who has ever used that small of a gun for deer but if you want you can.
> 
> Survival rifle.. no question about it, a .22LR of just about any sort, as long as it's a weapon you're familiar with it's a good all around gun. Larger game, self defense call for different things but if I could only ever own one gun that would probably be it.


2008
W I S C O N S I N
Deer Hunting Regulations

Firearm and Bow Restrictions
Rifles:
• Must have an overall 26” minimum length with 16” minimum barrel length.

• Are legal for hunting deer in areas not restricted to shotguns, muzzleloaders and handguns only as indicated by the maps on page 13.

• It is illegal to possess any rimfire rifle larger than .22 caliber or any center-fire rifle .22 caliber or larger during any gun deer season in shotgun only areas unless it is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Note: Rifled barreled shotguns and muzzleloaders are not considered rifles for purpose of hunting deer.

*• It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle, rimfire rifle, or any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber.*
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/...egs/Deer08.pdf

----------


## Beo

FOR WILDERNESS SURVIVAL THE RUGER 10/22 IS MY FAVORITE BUT LATELY i BEEN CAYYING THE Patriot Ordnance P-416 Offensive Compact Carbine in 5.56mm NATO since I'ma be in the middle east in about a month. My sidearm will be either a Sig. or H&K .40

----------


## Cannonman17

> 2008
> W I S C O N S I N
> Deer Hunting Regulations
> 
> Firearm and Bow Restrictions
> Rifles:
>  Must have an overall 26 minimum length with 16 minimum barrel length.
> 
>  Are legal for hunting deer in areas not restricted to shotguns, muzzleloaders and handguns only as indicated by the maps on page 13.
> ...


the key part "LESS" than .22 caliber.

----------


## Gray Wolf

> I'ma be in the middle east in about a month. My sidearm will be either a Sig. or H&K .40


I like the Sig, a very reliable sidearm IMHO. And as far as your deployment in the mid-east, be safe, Via Con Dios my brother.

----------


## Runs With Beer

> FOR WILDERNESS SURVIVAL THE RUGER 10/22 IS MY FAVORITE BUT LATELY i BEEN CAYYING THE Patriot Ordnance P-416 Offensive Compact Carbine in 5.56mm NATO since I'ma be in the middle east in about a month. My sidearm will be either a Sig. or H&K .40


Are you going to the sand pit?

----------


## Sourdough

> the key part "LESS" than .22 caliber.



NO the KEY part is "RIM"    Not less
What part of "RIM" Fire do you not understand.......? Do you know the difference between CENTERFIRE and RIMFIRE....??????

----------


## Cannonman17

Seriously? Read it one more time, it doesn't say you can't use a rim fire, it says you can't use one less than .22 calibur.

----------


## crashdive123

As many of you know, sometimes I catch on slow.......but I read it the same way that Cannonman reads it.

----------


## Runs With Beer

It does say RIMFIRE RIFLE.

----------


## Sourdough

YOU guys are NOT reading it correctly......reread. Carefully

----------


## Cannonman17

"• It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle, rimfire rifle, or any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber." 
It's illegal to hunt with any of these *points up* *less than 22 caliber*. You guys are getting stuck on the rimfire part... notice it also mentions cneter fire right after that... what type of projectiles do you suppose we use here if centerfire and rimfire are both illegal?

----------


## crashdive123

I ain't going hunting there unless I bring a lawyer.  *Ken!*

----------


## klkak

*- It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle.

- It is illegal to hunt deer with a rim fire rifle.

- It is illegal to hunt deer with any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber.*

If you don't believe it. Then you go kill yourself a deer and take it to your local check station and let them know you killed it with a .22 magnum rim fire.  When they start writing you a ticket you argue with them and cause as much fuss as you can.  When law enforcement shows up, you argue with them too.

P.S.  Make sure you have someone there taking pictures or videotaping it.

Crash, get out your copy of "Tongue and quill". (every good NCO had one) Read what those cama's mean as well as the use of the word "or"

----------


## Runs With Beer

Ask your local Game Warden if its OK.

----------


## Beo

It is illegalto hunt deer with any air rifle, rimfire rifle, or any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber.

Yeah I see what Cannonman said.

----------


## Runs With Beer

> *- It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle.
> 
> - It is illegal to hunt deer with a rim fire rifle.
> 
> - It is illegal to hunt deer with any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber.*
> 
> If you don't believe it. Then you go kill yourself a deer and take it to your local check station and let them know you killed it with a .22 magnum rim fire.  When they start writing you a ticket you argue with them and cause as much fuss as you can.  When law enforcement shows up, you argue with them too.
> 
> P.S.  Make sure you have someone there taking pictures or videotaping it.


Thats right.

----------


## Beo

Are you supposed to break it down? How does the regulations actually print it?

----------


## Sourdough

> Seriously? Read it one more time, it doesn't say you can't use a rim fire, it says you can't use one less than .22 calibur.



When you get to a comma, stop take a breath, then continue.

----------


## Cannonman17

> *- It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle.
> 
> - It is illegal to hunt deer with a rim fire rifle.
> 
> - It is illegal to hunt deer with any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber.*
> 
> If you don't believe it. Then you go kill yourself a deer and take it to your local check station and let them know you killed it with a .22 magnum rim fire.  When they start writing you a ticket you argue with them and cause as much fuss as you can.  When law enforcement shows up, you argue with them too.
> 
> P.S.  Make sure you have someone there taking pictures or videotaping it.


You're nowhere near as smart as you think. My son was able to take his hunter's safety course this year and I sat through all the classes with him. During one session the game warden stood in front of the class with a .22 and some gigantic shell for safari hunting that looked to be almost .50 cal is size.. he asked, and I quote, "Do any of you know which of these you can use to hunt deer in Wisconsin?" *silence from the class... then one little boy sheepishly raises his hand.. "Yes.." "Um, the big one?" "Actually, you can use either." From the game wardens mouth. You can't rewrite it like you did.. You can't use a rimfire of less than .22 caliber, it's just that simple. It doesn't say It's illegal to use a rimfire, it says it's illegal to use one of less than .22 I'm telling you that I am 100% certain on this, there is no doubt. Like I mentioned, I've never heard of anybody using one, don't know what the point would be but it is 100% legal.

----------


## Sourdough

You can use a centerfire of .22 calaber or larger

You may not use any RIMFIRE PERIOD.

----------


## Cannonman17

You're wrong plain and simple..

----------


## Runs With Beer

Im sorry but I dont Belive it.

----------


## klkak

> You're nowhere near as smart as you think. My son was able to take his hunter's safety course this year and I sat through all the classes with him. During one session the game warden stood in front of the class with a .22 and some gigantic shell for safari hunting that looked to be almost .50 cal is size.. he asked, and I quote, "Do any of you know which of these you can use to hunt deer in Wisconsin?" *silence from the class... then one little boy sheepishly raises his hand.. "Yes.." "Um, the big one?" "Actually, you can use either." From the game wardens mouth. You can't rewrite it like you did.. You can't use a rimfire of less than .22 caliber, it's just that simple. It doesn't say It's illegal to use a rimfire, it says it's illegal to use one of less than .22 I'm telling you that I am 100% certain on this, there is no doubt. Like I mentioned, I've never heard of anybody using one, don't know what the point would be but it is 100% legal.


Ok, Thats fine. You go ahead and try it.

----------


## Cannonman17

I'll make you a bet.

----------


## Cannonman17

A friendly bet of course. I will email the Wisconsin DNR, better yet, YOU email them personally so you know I didn't tamper with it and simply ask them if it's legal to use a rimfire .22LR for hunting deer in this state. When you get your response I won't even rub it in.

----------


## Runs With Beer

> Ok, Thats fine. You go ahead and try it.


I dont know of any where you can use a 22 rimfire to deer hunt legal.

----------


## Sourdough

> You're nowhere near as smart as you think. My son was able to take his hunter's safety course this year and I sat through all the classes with him. During one session the game warden stood in front of the class with a .22 and some gigantic shell for safari hunting that looked to be almost .50 cal is size.. he asked, and I quote, "Do any of you know which of these you can use to hunt deer in Wisconsin?" *silence from the class... then one little boy sheepishly raises his hand.. "Yes.." "Um, the big one?" "Actually, you can use either." From the game wardens mouth. You can't rewrite it like you did.. You can't use a rimfire of less than .22 caliber, it's just that simple. It doesn't say It's illegal to use a rimfire, it says it's illegal to use one of less than .22 I'm telling you that I am 100% certain on this, there is no doubt. Like I mentioned, I've never heard of anybody using one, don't know what the point would be but it is 100% legal.



Sounds great. But you still wrong. And I'll put big money on it. He may have been holding a .22 Hornet which is center fire. We have the same law here. With a clear exception for shooting caribou in the water from a boat.

----------


## Cannonman17

The thought never crossed my mind until I sat in that hunter's safety class with my son and listened to the game warden. I don't know of anybody that does, I don't know of any other place in the country where it's okay, but as sure as I'm sitting here right now I guarentee that it's legal. Crazy but legal.

----------


## Cannonman17

> Sounds great. But you still wrong. And I'll put big money on it. He may have been holding a .22 Hornet which is center fire. We have the same law here. With a clear exception for shooting caribou in the water from a boat.


Okay, what do you want to bet? And will you be willing to do the email or should I?

----------


## Runs With Beer

I want to see the outcome of this one.

----------


## Sourdough

Call the State Attorney Generals office tomorrow.

----------


## Sourdough

The Game Warden may have not understood the law, not the first time.

----------


## Sourdough

> Okay, what do you want to bet? And will you be willing to do the email or should I?


I think you should do it, It does not impact me at all.

----------


## Cannonman17

> Call the State Attorney Generals office tomorrow.


You think the State Attorney Generals office is going to understand the game laws better than the Department of Natural Resources?? Yeah... I just looked on the Wisconsin DNR page and can't find email but found a 1 800 number for you to call with any questions..  here you go.. 1-888-936-7463 M-F 7 AM to 10 PM 
Now what did you want to bet?

----------


## crashdive123

Well - found this (can't verify it's accuracy) that supports Klkak, Hope and others that say no to the 22 rimfire.  http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8224138AAHjM1u

----------


## Cannonman17

For some reason that link won't load for me. All you guys have to do is go back to the original copy and paste from the Wisconsin rule book and read it slowly out loud, it's in plain English, 

No air, rim, or centerfire less than .22 means that a centerfire or rim of .22 or bigger is perfectly fine to use.

----------


## Beo

Here it is straight outta the Wisconson hunting regs for rifles read it and take it for exactly what it says do not read into it.
*Rifles:*
• Must have an overall 26” minimum length with 16” minimum barrel length.
• Are legal for hunting deer in areas not restricted to shotguns, muzzleloaders and handguns only as indicated by the maps on page 13.
• It is illegal to possess any rimfire rifle larger than .22 caliber or any center-fire rifle .22 caliber or larger during any gun deer season in shotgun only areas unless it is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. 


*Note:* Rifled barreled shotguns and muzzleloaders are not considered rifl es for purpose of hunting deer.• It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle, rimfire rifle, or any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber.

----------


## Sourdough

Cannonman, you seem like a nice guy, I think the warden misspoke, or something, I don't know. But the wording is word for word, same as Alaska's. And this was one of the questions on the Assistant Guide Test, that we created years ago. It is not personal, and I am sorry. But no rimfire, means no rimfire. And if I am wrong I will make a new thread and state clearly Hopeak was WRONG.

----------


## klkak

I just sent the following email to the Wisconsin DNR.




> Mr. Loomans,
> 
> I am a member of an on-line forum.
> 
> There is an on going discussion concerning firearms for hunting. One of the other members states that it is legal to use a .22 magnum rim fire to hunt deer in Wisconsin.
> 
> After reading the on-line regulations several of us believe it is not a legal practice.
> 
> We try to provide helpful, accurate information on the forum.
> ...


I will post his reply when I receive it.

----------


## Beo

No you can't use a .22 rimfire.

----------


## Cannonman17

Look, I'm the new guy here and don't want to cause a bunch of problems. I gave you the number to call. Please do. I'll come back on here tomorrow. The DNR agent who gave the talk has been working this county for a long long time, Warden Miller. He hands out more tickets than anybody I know and follows the rules to the T. 
You're just reading only part of it, you're reading it's illegal to use a rimfire. That's it... but that's not it. Notice after rimfire there is a comma and then centerfire? By the way you're reading it that would make all centerfire rifles illegal as well...

----------


## Sourdough

Wow, klkak you sure know how to stir up trouble.........And then leave...... :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Cannonman17

> I just sent the following email to the Wisconsin DNR.
> 
> 
> I will post his reply when I receive it.


That will work. Where did you find an email for the DNR? I couldn't find one?

----------


## Beo

I'ma call tomorrow.

----------


## Cannonman17

> No you can't use a .22 rimfire.


This is for anybody who wants to sign up. I will bet one ounce of pure silver bullion. If I'm wrong I'll send it to you and if I'm right you find one to send to me.

----------


## Sourdough

> Look, I'm the new guy here and don't want to cause a bunch of problems. I gave you the number to call. Please do. I'll come back on here tomorrow. The DNR agent who gave the talk has been working this county for a long long time, Warden Miller. He hands out more tickets than anybody I know and follows the rules to the T. 
> You're just reading only part of it, you're reading it's illegal to use a rimfire. That's it... but that's not it. Notice after rimfire there is a comma and then centerfire? By the way you're reading it that would make all centerfire rifles illegal as well...



No ONLY centerfire sub .22 as in .17 caliber.

----------


## Cannonman17

> I'ma call tomorrow.


I think the call to the DNR office would be best myself but no way to prove to the skeptics what is said.

----------


## Cannonman17

> No ONLY centerfire sub .22 as in .17 caliber.


How are you getting that to apply to one but not the other? They are listed together... It is illegal to use any rimfire or centerfire less than .22 in caliber.

Okay, I'm done with this subject until tomorrow. Perhaps I will have to eat my words and ship out some silver. Perhaps I will be getting some for christmas.

----------


## Sourdough

> This is for anybody who wants to sign up. I will bet one ounce of pure silver bullion. If I'm wrong I'll send it to you and if I'm right you find one to send to me.



Your on, I accept.

----------


## Sourdough

I would have gone up to $250,000.- There is NO question for me, what it means.

----------


## Sourdough

Cannonman, I admire you for NOT backing down on what you understand to be correct.

----------


## Beo

I'ma call and ask if you can use a .22 rimfire to hunt deer, I really don't care so why would I lie about it, not saying either is wrong but I will say in a survival situation I'd shoot a deer with a frig'n rubber band gun if it'd kill his azz and I could eat him so's I don't starve to death.
BTW I don't bet, so sorry. I will post what I am told though take it or leave it.

----------


## Cannonman17

I would not have gone up to 250,000 because my father always told me 1) don't gamble, 2) If you do, make sure you have enough to cover the bet no matter how sure you are that you're going to win.  :Smile:

----------


## Sourdough

It is only money. Are you into Cannons?

----------


## Beo

Cannonman, I admire you for NOT backing down on what you understand to be correct.

Very true and I do to, and I'm not even sure what is correct. Hey Cannonman being new don't mean jack, I'ma be the new guy when I start with the team I'm going with so don't sweat it.

----------


## Cannonman17

No, just a nickname-

----------


## Cannonman17

> Cannonman, I admire you for NOT backing down on what you understand to be correct.
> 
> Very true and I do to, and I'm not even sure what is correct. Hey Cannonman being new don't mean jack, I'ma be the new guy when I start with the team I'm going with so don't sweat it.


I swear to God I'm not normally this argumentive!!

----------


## Sarge47

> Okay, I'm done with this subject until tomorrow.


So, while you're waiting, hike on over to the "Introcuctions" area & introduce yourself. :Cool:

----------


## Beo

Not arguing just different opinions, makes for good conversation. everyting's irie mon  :Big Grin:

----------


## Cannonman17

> So, while you're waiting, hike on over to the "Introcuctions" area & introduce yourself.


I did already.

----------


## Beo

he did yesterday at 8:54 pm and welcome brother to the pack.

----------


## Beo

Oh and Sarge your wolfie picture scares me... he hee hee!!! he hee hee!!! he hee hee!!! he hee hee!!! he hee hee!!!

----------


## Sarge47

> I did already.


Sorry, my bad, missed it when I 1st checked; :Embarrassment:  great intro, BTW & welcome to the Wolf Pack.  Warning!  they can be a little frisky at times. :EEK!:   Good luck on your debate as long as you keep it friendly; sounds interesting!  I can tell you right now that in Illinois you can't even hunt deer legally with a Centerfire Rifle nor OO Buckshot; slugs only, Black Powder, & Bow hunting is all. :Cool:

----------


## Sourdough

Where the Hill is Illinois anyway....? It is in America....Right..... :Smile: 

And Welcome to the forum Cannonman....... :Smile:

----------


## klkak

I must be a glutton for punishment.  For some reason I just can't let ignorance prevail.

----------


## klkak

Hey Hope, Where'd everyone go? It's only 10 of 10pm.

----------


## Cannonman17

Looks like I'm going to be eating a big old bowl of humble pie through the course of the day. I called the 1-888 number and asked, he said nope. No hesitation, nothing, in fact he sounded like I woke him from a sound sleep... I went on to mention the wording of it and was met with uninterested silence... so I said thanks and got a unenthusiastic "yep." So... unless you folks find out otherwise I'm going to have to eat all my words, go back and appologize to everybody and worst of all send out some silver... *sigh* how humiliating! I'm still holding out hope of talking to the game warden though and being redeamed... looks like a long shot at this point but... Either way I will be having an interesting conversation with him when I see him. Now I'm off to go call the main teacher of the hunter's safety class and tell him-  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Sourdough

> Hey Hope, Where'd everyone go? It's only 10 of 10pm.


My generator ran out of fuel at about 10:15. no power, no computer.

----------


## Ole WV Coot

Time for my "humble" opinion. You CAN kill almost anything with a 22LR or Mag if you hit the right spot and are a better than average hunter. On the legal side I don't know any state that will allow you to hunt deer with a 22. I can just see you being checked by the local game warden and after he stops laughing you will be making little rocks out of big ones for a long time and the 22 will be on a tipboard the same day. Now this ain't a survival situation where anything goes, just a regular season deer hunt.

----------


## Cannonman17

No no no... I never would hunt deer with a .22, it's just silly in my opinion. I hunt them with a .308, the whole discussion was about the legality of it. 

I remember being deciding when I was a little kid that I didn't like the taste of humble pie and it's been a LONG time since I've been forced to eat some... guess what? I still don't like the taste of it!  :Big Grin:

----------


## trax

well Cannon, I'll still go hunting with ya cuz I wasn't about to bring a .22 anyway, lol. :Big Grin:  That was fun catching up on this and watchin y'all kicking sand at each other, no cussing, no insulting, well done gentlemen. (polite applause)

----------


## Sarge47

> Looks like I'm going to be eating a big old bowl of humble pie through the course of the day. I called the 1-888 number and asked, he said nope. No hesitation, nothing, in fact he sounded like I woke him from a sound sleep... I went on to mention the wording of it and was met with uninterested silence... so I said thanks and got a unenthusiastic "yep." So... unless you folks find out otherwise I'm going to have to eat all my words, go back and appologize to everybody and worst of all send out some silver... *sigh* how humiliating! I'm still holding out hope of talking to the game warden though and being redeamed... looks like a long shot at this point but... Either way I will be having an interesting conversation with him when I see him. Now I'm off to go call the main teacher of the hunter's safety class and tell him-


So, big gun, please tell me, where is it written that teachers are always right? I tend to drive many people crazy as I follow a motto that says "Question Everything."  However, I'm agreeing with Trax; you all handled that debate like gentlemen...you guys must have caught something! :EEK!:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Big Grin:  :Cool:

----------


## crashdive123

Don't worry Sarge - won't last. :Wink:

----------


## trax

> However, I'm agreeing with Trax;


Does anyone just want to do a little count of how often statements like that tend to pop up in these conversations? I never get tired of .... :Embarrassment:

----------


## Rick

Just print this and hang it over the computer. If you get to feeling low just glance at it. 

RULE 1: TRAX IS RIGHT
RULE 2: IF IN DOUBT, REFER TO RULE 1.

You have to admit. That's darn near a Cootism.

----------


## crashdive123

> Looks like I'm going to be eating a big old bowl of humble pie through the course of the day. I called the 1-888 number and asked, he said nope. No hesitation, nothing, in fact he sounded like I woke him from a sound sleep... I went on to mention the wording of it and was met with uninterested silence... so I said thanks and got a unenthusiastic "yep." So... unless you folks find out otherwise I'm going to have to eat all my words, go back and appologize to everybody and worst of all send out some silver... *sigh* how humiliating! I'm still holding out hope of talking to the game warden though and being redeamed... looks like a long shot at this point but... Either way I will be having an interesting conversation with him when I see him. Now I'm off to go call the main teacher of the hunter's safety class and tell him-


Cannonman - there is absolutely nothing wrong with having to admit you were wrong.  I had to do it once.....well twice.....ok maybe three times.....oh nevermind.

----------


## Sourdough

What I like about humble pie is that it has lots of fiber, so it will pass quickly. Which comes in handy when you have an outhouse with no door, at -23*F

----------


## trax

> Just print this and hang it over the computer. If you get to feeling low just glance at it. 
> 
> RULE 1: TRAX IS RIGHT
> RULE 2: IF IN DOUBT, REFER TO RULE 1.
> 
> You have to admit. That's darn near a Cootism.


...and if you have to pass the immigration quiz, that's also the entire legal code for Free Traxistan  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rick

I will freely admit that there are a large number of things I have never experienced in this life. There is a bit shorter list of things I never want to experience. Using an outhouse at -23F (with or without door) is very high on both lists!

----------


## trax

It does discourage lingering....

----------


## Cannonman17

*Cannonman offers his humble pie to the others... here, you want some? They say it's good for you from time to time... I think it tastes like.... well, you know*  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I didn't have any luck getting a hold of the instructor for the safety class... he must have had the day off. I don't suppose I will see the warden any time soon either since this week is deer season... Okay, I don't need to talk to them anyway to conceed defeat, send me your address so I can get the silver out to you and I can put this fiasco behind me!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## SARKY

I have an AR-7 and a Keltec SU-16, I like them both but for dependability My first choice would be one of my Ruger 10-22s. I presently have one in .22 LR and the other is in .17 Mach2. I installed Volquartsen trigger groups in both of them as well as carbon fiber barrels. This makes them both light and accurate. I am presently working on making a P-90 stock to drop one of these barreled recievers into which will greatly reduce the over-all length of the rifle. If you decide on the SU-16 , go for the CA model.

----------


## SARKY

As far as ammo goes, a box of Federal 550 rounds of .22LR is around $10.00 at Walmart and the box is about 2inches by 3inches by 3inches so it doesn't take up much room. I probably have 10,000 rounds on hand at any time. I am also a certified pistol instructor so I burn through a lot of this stuff eaching.

----------


## Rick

Just curious how you store 10,000 rounds of rim fire? I had some .22LR that was about 20 years old and about half was click with no bang!

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## Sarge47

> *Cannonman offers his humble pie to the others... here, you want some? They say it's good for you from time to time... I think it tastes like.... well, you know*


...a Twinkie?  If so, Rick might be interested. :EEK!:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Big Grin:  :Cool:

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## Sourdough

> *Cannonman offers his humble pie to the others... here, you want some? They say it's good for you from time to time... I think it tastes like.... well, you know* 
> 
> I didn't have any luck getting a hold of the instructor for the safety class... he must have had the day off. I don't suppose I will see the warden any time soon either since this week is deer season... Okay, I don't need to talk to them anyway to conceed defeat, send me your address so I can get the silver out to you and I can put this fiasco behind me!



I figure one oz. of silver at spot is $10.30 but in some denomination or one oz. round worth about $15.95 to $16.50 add in shipping. I figure you buy your son a brick of .22 Long Rifle ammo at wall mart for $17.50 on sale, and we call it all squared up. :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Sarge47

> I am also a certified pistol instructor so I burn through a lot of this stuff teaching.


What, you instruct pistols?  To do what, shoot their mouth off?  :EEK!:  Thought you'd get a "bang" out of that one. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   "Sit down & listen up ya little "son-of-a-gun!" :Big Grin:

----------


## FVR

My survival rifle.................

22 WMR

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Best 50 bucks I've spent.  Except for the grips, some kind of monkey wood, will be making a new set soon.


My theory on nana booboos running over the hill, when they get to where I was, I was.

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## Rick

That's what make the Ruger Single Six so sweet. Best of both worlds.

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## Pal334

Chuckling, a lively discussion. Mmm to throw a bit of gas at the rifle question, my choice is a simple double barrel shotgun (coach gun) http://www.stoegerindustries.com/fir...coach_guns.php
simple, light, multi use.  That is my nickels worth

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## crashdive123

buuuuuuuuuuut --- if you were out for a long time and had to lug around all of your ammo, would you still want the 12 ga or prefer a 22?

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## tsitenha

A .22lr please, ooohh my aching back from all those shotshells.

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## Pal334

Well,, I carried a 12 guage pump off and on for 30 years, in SEA and most recently in the sand box and numerous points in between.  The coach gun is much lighter. I agree it does get " heavy", but have always liked the versatility that a 12 guage offers. Simple to use, easy to keep clean and ammunition is fairly easy to get. And it does deliver a rather satisfying *Boom*.

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## crashdive123

I wasn't so much thinking of the weight of the weapon, but rather the weight of - say - 5,000 rounds.

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## Runs With Beer

> A .22lr please, ooohh my aching back from all those shotshells.


Im with you on that!

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## Pal334

well,,  5,000 rds would require that I be issued a junior troop to haul it  :Smile:  . But 40 rds is a reasonable  load to carry. And I dare say that would be more than enough for a normal walk in the woods. And was an ample amount for some "social engagements". I guess it just depends on your needs and comfort level.

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## Runs With Beer

I can dig it!

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## crashdive123

The reason I suggest that many rounds was that somebody had described a scenario of an extend period - months to a year.  But hey, if it works for you, then it works for me.

----------


## Pal334

My bad then,,  I would need several troops to lug in that amount  :Smile:   Or talk the wife into being a bit more cooperative  :Smile: .

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## Cannonman17

> I figure one oz. of silver at spot is $10.30 but in some denomination or one oz. round worth about $15.95 to $16.50 add in shipping. I figure you buy your son a brick of .22 Long Rifle ammo at wall mart for $17.50 on sale, and we call it all squared up.


Well, I must say that is very nice of you and I will take you up on that offer... but: If you would send me your address I could send you some token of my appreciation. And humble humiliation.

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## crashdive123

No worries.  My ideal situation would not be just one weapon, but in a survival situation small game is likely to be on the menu more frequently than larger game - hence my choice of the 22 (haven't used the word hence in awhile - feels good - go ahead and try it)

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## Pal334

Last time I used the word hence, someone took my temperature  :Smile:   A .22  does make sense.  I guess I hold to my old ways , "bigger is better"

----------


## klkak

I would have no trouble carrying 5,000 rounds of 12g..............(in the back of my truck!)

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## Gray Wolf

Was a SS M6 Hornet .22/410 (someone's enjoying it), now a Savage BV(.22 lr) then the Savage .22 BSVT stainless steel bull barrel w/ lamanent thumbhole stock.

----------


## fishpole

gosh i left NH to go back home and do a little deer hunting (with a .30/06, not a .22 lol!!!) and there were 34 posts...now there's 189! nice to see such interest in a thread started by the new guy, appreciate all the posts guys! keep em coming, im really liking this place so far!
oh n hopeak, enjoy your winnings lol!
-cory

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## Sourdough

My winnings have been given to a fine young man.

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## Sourdough

One of the problems is that all the Bloggers, Gun Magazines, and yes, "US" use the words "Survival Rifle" which is confusing, and misleading. 

"Subsistence Rifle" might be a better title for the firearm. It would NOT be a perfect hunting rifle, it would NOT be the perfect battle rifle, it would NOT be a perfect home defense weapon. 

My understanding of "Subsistence" is just enough to stay alive. Maybe a mouse one day, maybe tree bark the next day. The objective is to live one more day. To subsist. To me implied in subsistence is hunger, your going to be hungry.

There are many types of solutions that did not get mentioned, like sleeves, or chamber adapters. Or switch barrel firearms like Contenders or H&R.

I do feel the the firearms industry has never fully embraced this market. H&R with its survivor firearms may be a starting point.

The firearm needs to be simple, with the least moving parts, and the ability to function with out oil, grease, or lubricants. Maybe all parts would be Teflon coated.

The .22LR with it variants, .22Long, .22short, .22CB Cap, .22BB Cap, etc. is versatile, but still limiting. However it could be a chamber adapter for a .223 Remington, or .22 K-Hornet "Survivor" Subsistence Rifle.

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## Pal334

I agree in concept with _hopeak_.  A simple design is best. Few parts, easy to maintain. I would submit that a "Drilling rifle/shotgun" maybe an ideal compromise. You can select caliber and gauge combo depending on your needs. http://www.apachego.com/drilling/index.htm 
Unfortunately all I have seen, are extremely expensive.

----------


## Sourdough

> I agree in concept with _hopeak_.  A simple design is best. Few parts, easy to maintain. I would submit that a "Drilling rifle/shotgun" maybe an ideal compromise. You can select caliber and gauge combo depending on your needs. http://www.apachego.com/drilling/index.htm 
> Unfortunately all I have seen, are extremely expensive.



The SAVAGE Model 24 used will run $250.00 to $495.00 depending on cartridge/gauge. The .222 Remington over .20 gauge can be reamed out to .223 Remington for cheaper ammo.

----------


## Pal334

Thanks hopeak.  Was not seeing the forest for the trees  :Smile:   . Now this is a good "compromise" to my compromise.  I try to be a "KISS" (Keep it simple stupid) guy. The Savage design is as simple as it gets.

Thanks again

----------


## fishpole

if i could tolerate carrying shotshells then id go for it. the contender is a great firearm and ive shot quite a few lately as they've gotten awful popular. but after following this thread im really into the idea of picking up a 10/22 to pack around.

----------


## Sourdough

> if i could tolerate carrying shotshells then id go for it. the contender is a great firearm and ive shot quite a few lately as they've gotten awful popular. but after following this thread im really into the idea of picking up a 10/22 to pack around.



You might also look at the 10/22 Charger. A 10/22 with a 10" barrel and comes with a scope base and Harris Tripod. Cute set-up for a back pack/day pack.

----------


## Sarge47

> if i could tolerate carrying shotshells then id go for it. the contender is a great firearm and ive shot quite a few lately as they've gotten awful popular. but after following this thread im really into the idea of picking up a 10/22 to pack around.


Many on here, including me, own the 10/22.  It's a great "all-purpose" rifle.  I wouldn't call it a "Survival" rifle though; more like Hopeak said, a "subsistence" rifle. :Cool:

----------


## omegaman

new to the sight , but there being leagle issues as to caliber ,i think of it this way atlatles are not leagle for hunting deer in most states ,but our ansesters fed us deer from those same primitive wepons. as for the ruger ,a well placed shot to the heart ,lungs, or head and you have your deer . :Smile:

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## Sourdough

> new to the sight , but there being leagle issues as to caliber ,i think of it this way atlatles are not leagle for hunting deer in most states ,but our ansesters fed us deer from those same primitive wepons. as for the ruger ,a well placed shot to the heart ,lungs, or head and you have your deer .


Skipped to the end, and did not read the middle.

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## Sarge47

If you're not part of TheFreakinBear why not hike over to the intro section & introduce yourself? :Cool:

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## omegaman

there are no mistakes in life ! just lessons to be learned

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## AKS

> If you're not part of TheFreakinBear why not hike over to the intro section & introduce yourself?


He put his intro on his profile page.  Somebody who has more time to spend on the forum want to help him out? :Smile:

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## Sarge47

It's considered rude NOT to post an intro in the introductions section, not your home page.  You can find it at the bottom of the page in the "Forums" list.  Also you posted a question to "yourself" in your profile area, that could also be listed in your intro as hardly anyone is going to see it in the profile section.  Finally, we had a serious problem with a crazy Troll calling himself "TheFreakinBear" who runs a site with the same name as your user name, so I'll be watching you very close & if I think you're here to simply cause trouble you'll be gone, understand? :Cool:   (PS, I've sent you the same message via PM so I expect you to read one of these & respond,ok?) :Cool:

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## Pal334

> You might also look at the 10/22 Charger. A 10/22 with a 10" barrel and comes with a scope base and Harris Tripod. Cute set-up for a back pack/day pack.


I just "googled" and came up with this: 
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-22Charger.htm

Very nice, may cause me to reconsider my "Coach Gun" decision :EEK!:

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## Beo

I called DNR at 1-888-936-7463 and it was closed, called a friend in Ashland County, Wisconsin today at 12:30 and he said no you cannot hunt with a .22

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## Sourdough

> I just "googled" and came up with this: 
> http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-22Charger.htm
> 
> Very nice, may cause me to reconsider my "Coach Gun" decision


I have had one (Charger) for about 5 months. but I have never done anything with it, but I will.

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## Beo

Several people have asked about the rifle I said I am going to be using, well Blackwater is a private contracting company so I had actually a pretty large armory to pick from but the standard weapon is the M4, I choose the P416 because I like how it handled, here the specs on the P416 I'll be carrying.
Patriot Ordnance Factory P416 (Basically an M4 but better in my opinion)
*Barrel:* 11.5" Heavy contour, Fluted to reduce weight and heat, corrosion resistant and 10 times thicker and hardness than mil-spec chromed lining, it has a right-handed 1x7 twist (16" 1:8 twist), button rifled (Rock Creek Barrel Blank)
A2 Flash Hider
*Chamber:* 5.56 mm Nato (.223 Cal.)
*Method of Operation:* Gas Piston operated, rotating bolt (short stroke system) Reversible piston / gas trap design (two modes of fire, single shot and 3 rnd burst) C.R.O.S. (Corrosion Resistant Operating System): 
(Chrome plated: Barrel, Gas Block/Tube, Gas Plug, Gas Piston, Bolt Carrier Assembly) 
*Bolt & Carrier:* Chrome plated 8620 Integral Keyed Steel Bolt Carrier (billet machined), heat treated/plated per Mil Spec. Chrome plated steel bolt, heat treated, to Mil-spec. 
*Sights:* Trijicon Red Dot
*Weight:* Empty – 6.5 Lbs
Along with this I'll have a Sig .40 on my hip with three 11 round mags, for a total of 34 pistol rounds.
Any questions ask and I'll let ya know what I can, but it shot great and did great in all weather conditions, heat, cold, rain and covered in dirt it had little to no problems. I put around 3000 rounds through it and had only two problems of jamming, applied a generous amount of lube and it shot without problems. Being a gun if you abuse it it will jam, take care of it and it keep you alive.
Beo,

----------


## sgtdraino

> I find it interesting that Sgt. Draino hadn't been aware of the AR-7 since it started out back in the 50's as the AR-5;


I was aware of it, I'd just never really taken a serious look at it before. Heck, anyone who's seen James Bond is aware of it.




> does anyone have any personal experience with keltec firearms? i have read some o.k. reveiws on them but don't know anybody who owns one.


I currently own a P3AT in .380 and a Sub2000 in .40 S&W, and I would give both firearms very high marks. The P3AT is the easiest gun I have ever carried concealed. It is so small and light, you can literally forget it is there. Shooting it takes some getting used to, but once you learn how to hold it properly, I found it to be reliable. The Sub2000 is a folding carbine that accepts popular pistol magazines (in my case, Glock 22 .40 S&W). I've been very pleased with it. It has never malfunctioned on me, and I actually shot better with it than I did with a scoped M4.

I do not have any experience with keltec's SU series, though I have always heard good things about them, and I really like the design.




> I am presently working on making a P-90 stock to drop one of these barreled recievers into which will greatly reduce the over-all length of the rifle.


SARKY, am I understanding correctly that you are making a stock for your 10/22 that would allow it to fold somewhat like an SU? That sounds exactly like what I am looking for!

Regarding the Wisconsin law: It looks to me like it was rather sloppily written, I can see how it could be read either way. I think anyone charged with hunting with a .22 would have a very valid defense in court using that text.

Question for you all: Is there a reason why a lot of you seem to pick .22 LR over .22 WMR? Seems to me like .22 WMR would be a superior round in most respects. Nearly as small and light as .22 LR, but significantly more punch. What am I missing?

Also, I see that Ruger made a 10/22 Magnum up until 2006. Anybody know why it was discontinued? Would it be worth trying to get my hands on one of these?

----------


## SARKY

Hey there SGTDRAINO the P-90 stock turns the rifle into a bull-pup design. The reciever is now where your right ear would be on a regular stocked rifle, so even though the over all length is 26 inches, I still have a full length barrel on it. As to the Ruger 10-22 Mag I have one of those as well. It is nice, dependable and reasonably priced however have you checked the price of .22mag ammo as opposed to .22LR ammo? Also the .22Mag was never very popular so that is why it was discontinued. If you do decide to get one invest in theVolquartsen trigger group and an extra barrel chambered in .17HMR.

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## SARKY

sgtdraino,
If you haven't guessed by now I'm heavy into firearms and home gunsmithing. Your Sub2000 is a nice piece. Have you thought about getting a couple of 9mm barrels for it? You could keep one as 9mm and have the chamber reamed out to .357Sig on the other. This would give you the option of firing any of these 3 calibers in the one gun.

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## Sarge47

> I was aware of it, I'd just never really taken a serious look at it before. Heck, anyone who's seen James Bond is aware of it.


Yeah, good old Hollywood tried to make it look like a "Sniper Rifle" with a "1 shot-1 kill" concept on a grown man.   It's best for "1 shot-1 kill" on small game, however, not "spray & pray" as it can be prone to jamming.  The AR-7 does come with an extra magazine which stores in the stock.  However, even though the receiver is grooved for a scope, the scope will have to travel on the outside.  There's no room for it in the stock.  Over all, I think I'd like to have an older AR-5 with the .22 Hornet round, but they're kinda scarce. :Cool:

----------


## sgtdraino

> Hey there SGTDRAINO the P-90 stock turns the rifle into a bull-pup design.


Wait, you mean the FN P-90? The Stargate SG-1 gun? With the magazine on the top? Interesting. It's hard for me to envision a 10/22 going into that thing, I'd really love to see a picture of what you are doing!

I actually have one of those Muzzelite stocks that turns a 10/22 into a bullpup, but I was never totally happy with it. The sights sit up really high, away from the barrel, and I don't know if I like the trigger transfer mechanism, where you pull this other trigger, which pushes a thingy to depress the 10/22's real trigger. I felt sorta disconnected from the "feel" of the trigger, if that makes sense. I never felt like the design was capable of being very accurate.




> As to the Ruger 10-22 Mag I have one of those as well. It is nice, dependable and reasonably priced


Tempting. I see some on gunbroker.




> however have you checked the price of .22mag ammo as opposed to .22LR ammo?


Well, sure, .22LR so cheap there's really no comparison. .22WMR is priced more like a "real" round. But is that really a consideration for "survival" applications? In the field, you're carrying as much as you can and you're not going to be running down to the store to buy more. So, you get the best that you can afford, right?

Are there other reasons to shun .22WMR? So many folks on here seem to be on the .22LR bandwagon, I figured there must be other reasons besides cost. The collective seems to agree that the 10/22 is the best survival rifle. Why the LR version and not the Magnum?




> If you do decide to get one invest in theVolquartsen trigger group and an extra barrel chambered in .17HMR.


Meh. The .17HMR round never excited me. I'd feel like I'd be shooting little needles at things.

----------


## sgtdraino

> sgtdraino,
> If you haven't guessed by now I'm heavy into firearms and home gunsmithing. Your Sub2000 is a nice piece. Have you thought about getting a couple of 9mm barrels for it?


Would that actually work? I have at times wished I had gotten the 9mm version instead of the .40, because I have heard the 9mm has a more effective range. I never would have guessed that you could simply swap out barrels!

Now, at one point I looked into getting a Glock 19 barrel to put in my Glock 23, so I could shoot 9mm in it, but my research indicated that the action would probably not cycle dependably because it is built to work with .40, not 9mm. Extractor, firing pin, springs, slide weight, all designed to work with a different round. Is the Sub2000 designed in such a way that you really can swap barrels and get reliable feeding with 9mm?




> You could keep one as 9mm and have the chamber reamed out to .357Sig on the other. This would give you the option of firing any of these 3 calibers in the one gun.


An intriguing thought. However, on a similar note, I have heard that for a Glock you can safely put a .40 barrel in a .357, but that it is not safe to put a .357 barrel in a .40. The higher pressures of the .357 round could damage a G22 or G23, that the .357 Sig Glocks actually are built to higher tolerances, even though their dimensions are the same as the .40.

Again, is this different for the Sub2000? Is a Sub in .40 S&W really strong enough to withstand the pressures of .357 Sig?

----------


## Sourdough

> Question for you all: Is there a reason why a lot of you seem to pick .22 LR over .22 WMR? Seems to me like .22 WMR would be a superior round in most respects. Nearly as small and light as .22 LR, but significantly more punch. What am I missing?
> 
> Also, I see that Ruger made a 10/22 Magnum up until 2006. Anybody know why it was discontinued? Would it be worth trying to get my hands on one of these?



.22WMR $10.95 box vs. .22LR at $1.75 per box. WMR's cost more than .223 ammo. If price is no problem I would go with a .256 Win. (.357 Magnum case necked down to 1/4 bore.

Ruger could not compete price wise in the market heads up to the Remington 597. And it was a small market to start with.

----------


## stellacotton

I have one rifle its an AR7 so by default its my favorite rifle. Ive never hunted with it as Ive never had the need to but I have killed many a soda can with it. It's very accurate, light weight and ammo is cheap. When and if the time comes I feel with the aid of my AR I could get accustomed to the taste of just about anything that moves if things get dire enough. 

This is my first post and I look forward to many more. This forum offers a plethora of useful info. I hardly know where to begin.  :Big Grin:

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## crashdive123

Hello and welcome Stella.  Nice pics in your album.  When you get a chance head on over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.

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## klkak

> An intriguing thought. However, on a similar note, I have heard that for a Glock you can safely put a .40 barrel in a .357, but that it is not safe to put a .357 barrel in a .40. The higher pressures of the .357 round could damage a G22 or G23, that the .357 Sig Glocks actually are built to higher tolerances, even though their dimensions are the same as the .40.
> 
> Again, is this different for the Sub2000? Is a Sub in .40 S&W really strong enough to withstand the pressures of .357 Sig?


I have a Glock 23 .40 s/w. I had a .357 sig conversion for it that I put maybe 2000rds through. It handled it just fine.  I sold the .357 sig setup because I ended up not liking it as much as the .40.

----------


## GreatWhiteHunter

i prefer to use an ar-15 in .308 or a 7mm hunting rifle

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## Sarge47

> i prefer to use an ar-15 in .308 or a 7mm hunting rifle


Whatever "trips your trigger!" :Cool:   Myself, I'd stay away from the big guns.
A waste of money on both them & the ammo.  .22 is enough for me. :Cool:

----------


## Sourdough

> i prefer to use an ar-15 in .308 or a 7mm hunting rifle


The .308 will not fit into the AR-15 platform. You are perhaps thinking AR-10 Platform.........

----------


## crashdive123

....or a survival club.

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## Sourdough

> ....or a survival club.


Your so bad, Crash. He is young let him back 300 pounds of ammo.

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## Sourdough

> i prefer to use an ar-15 in .308 or a 7mm hunting rifle



How many Hours were you thinking that you might be in a survival situation...? I figure years with no resupply.

----------


## Ole WV Coot

If I need heavy artillery like that I will surrender before the heart gives out. That's a lot of firepower and gotta add a little red wagon to haul enough ammo for a day or two. Kinda rethink survival or combat, you are betwix and between.

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## FVR

Most when speaking of survival are actually just talking of a planned camping adventure.  Most survival situations will be with those who are backwoods hunting or doing extreme sports.

Backwoods hunters, yeh, they will have hunting weapons.  As far as rounds they carry, don't know about you but when I went into the woods with the 308, I carried about 30 to 40 rounds.  When I venture into the woods with the smokepoles, I carry a total close to 40 lead balls with enough powder and caps, it really depends on which rifle.  The 45 enables me to carry a boat load of balls, the 50 I will go with about 25 loose balls with 6 in one block, 5 in another block and one in the barrel.  Now the 54, that's alot of lead.

I like the 22 pistolla, put two boxes of 50 rounds in the pack, load 6 and I'm off.

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## crashdive123

I'll bet that 308 is for taking squirrels at distance.......you know, about 4 miles.

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## Sarge47

> I'll bet that 308 is for taking squirrels at distance.......you know, about 4 miles.


I love the smell of Squirrel burger on the grill in the morning! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## klkak

> The .308 will not fit into the AR-15 platform. You are perhaps *thinking* AR-10 Platform.........


Thinking!  Is that possible?

----------


## Kankujoe

My favorite survival rifle is a choice between my Ruger 10/22 carbine w/ a folding stock & a few 25-50 rnd magazines, and my SS Ruger MkII 512 pistol (I know its not a rifle but it can do just about anything my carbine can do and can be concealed when/if necessary).

As many have stated, for survival (food/protection/stealth/practicality) a .22lr weapon is the most versatile & a large cache of .22 ammo can be carried easily. If I had to choose between the two (10/22 rifle or MkII pistol) I would most definately take the pistol. Beside that I always carry my usual CCW weapon.

Even though I have many other options available for both long guns & handguns, one of my MkII .22lr pistols is always in my bug-out-bag.

----------


## Fletcher

.50 cal works for me and 3500 rounds.  O and 4 foot long SURVIVAL KNIFE!!!!!!

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## SARKY

sgtdraino;
as far as the p-90 (Stargate)(you fanboy) (and I watch it too) stock goes, the 10-22 will still be a bottom feed right eject, it will just look and feel like a p-90. The trigger is the hardest part of this project, as I already have a volquartsen trigger group in the gun (it breaks like glass at 2.5 lbs) I just want to feel the manipulation of the trogger.
If you like the .22rfm round the 10-22 mag is built like a tank you will need to address the trigger pull. The first time I took mine out to shoot, I had to keep checking to make sure the safety was off, that is how heavy and gritty my trigger was.
The other reason most of like the .22lr is that you can find ammo any where and it is less destructive of small game meat. The native americans of Maine will drive a moose into a lake, chase him into deep water then come along side in a canoe or small boat and shoot him in the ear with a .22lr.
As for the sub-2000, yes it will work. If you pull out the hinge pin on your barrel, you want that exact same assembly only in 9mm. You may need to get a longer extractor claw for it to grab the case rim. and then it should still work with the .40
Your glock should work fine if you change out both the barrel/recoil spring and the slide.
I am almost certain that if you put a heavier recoil spring in with the .357Sig barrel it should work fine without beating up your gun.
as to the Sub-2000 cycling is all a balance of bolt weight and recoil spring weight.
I hope this helped
Sarky

----------


## SARKY

Hopeak, I find it interesting that you picked out the .256 Win Mag. round. I like the round and have taken deer with it (Maine Whitetail) Mine is an old Universal Ferret (.30 Carbine barreled for the .256 WinMag) I wouldn't mind getting carbine chambered in 5.7 MJ/.22 Spitfire (a .30 carbine round necked down to .22 caliber. Both the 5.7 and the .256 are very efficient cartridges. The .22 spitfire round predates the P-90s 5.7 round by decades and the are almost identical in performance and demensions.

----------


## Sourdough

> Hopeak, I find it interesting that you picked out the .256 Win Mag. round. I like the round and have taken deer with it (Maine Whitetail) Mine is an old Universal Ferret (.30 Carbine barreled for the .256 Win Mag) .



I like the Idea of a cartridge more powerful than a .22 Magnum or .22 Hornet, but is still small, so you could have a pocketful if one wanted.

----------


## Vextor

It depends on what kind of situation that one is trying to survive. 

The firearm I would choose for surviving in the hills of Arkansas is vastly different from the firearm I would choose to fight my way out of an urban SHTF hell.

Assuming I will need to survive in the backwoods for a very long time, I would likely take my Stevens .22LR/.410 O/U.  Yes, certainly I own more accurate rifles, however the simplicity of the break breach O/U greatly reduces the complexity of field repairs in a low tech environment.  With the .410, I would have the option to throw a slug or buckshot downrange at larger game if necessary.  

The .22LR is capable of taking down game up to and perhaps exceeding deer.  I would probably opt to avoid game any larger than a mule deer.  Additionally, the .22LR could be "silenced" if stealth was an absolute necessity.

Lets face it, I can haul a significantly greater number of rounds of .22LR compared to .300 Weatherby Magnum or 12ga. 

If I were to wish, it would be ideal for the rifle to shoot .22S, .22L, .22LR or .22mag (possibly though the use of interchangable chambers) and the "under" would be 12ga with the ability to accept a rifled barrel insert chambered for either .410 or .45LC which could be stored in the stock.  Also, I would like the barrel to be tapped so that I would have the option to scope it.  The stock could be more utilitarian allowing for the stowing of ammunition as well as a very baseline survival kit and the .45LC/.410 barrel insert.

That being said, the M6 for some reason doesn't appeal to me.

----------


## marberry

.45LC is a bad choice . a .460 S&W can take .460 S&W (obviously) .454 casull And .45LC the footpounds difference with commercial ammo is substantial . my stats for the three are 



.45 LC           523 FtLb      $.90 per round
.454 Casull    2003 FtLb    $1.15 per round
.460 SW       2860 FtLb    $1.40 per round

alot more bang for your buck and there all nearly the same size (external dimentions) prices may have changed though i wrote the book 3 months ago.

also, the .45 is weaker then a .40SW and since your firing from a rifle why not choose a larger caliber?

----------


## Sam

> Whats wrong with shooting your dinner multiple times in the neck?  Dead is dead.  I never had luck sinking a round through the eye at night, I figured I just suck at gaging how far away those blue/green pearls were from me.
> 
> As far as using a bigger round..  Ive been told you can "bark" squirrels.  Place a round an inch or so away and let the shrapnel kill the animal without damaging the meat with the actual bullet.


 Why are you shooting deer at NIGHT? WTF? I am not feeling real confident of your judgment. If I am missing something here please explain it to me.
-Sam

----------


## Vextor

> .45LC is a bad choice . a .460 S&W can take .460 S&W (obviously) .454 casull And .45LC the footpounds difference with commercial ammo is substantial . my stats for the three are 
> 
> 
> 
> .45 LC           523 FtLb      $.90 per round
> .454 Casull    2003 FtLb    $1.15 per round
> .460 SW       2860 FtLb    $1.40 per round
> 
> alot more bang for your buck and there all nearly the same size (external dimentions) prices may have changed though i wrote the book 3 months ago.
> ...


The 460 SW is a bad choice.  Ballistically, it is orders of magnitude weaker than my personal wildcat that is in development, a M61 Vulcan round necked down to .45.  Then again, I have a friend that is necking a 25mm M242 down to .22, which will blow my wildcat out of the water.  /jk  :Big Grin: 

Basically, my ideal gun would be one that could be fed the most common ammunition that could be purchased or scavenged in a post disaster situation.  So your recommendations of adding the .454 and 460 SW fit right in line with that goal.

After sleeping on this, I think I would also like to add the ability to chamber 5.56 NATO, so perhaps what I am looking for is a .223/12ga with inserts for .22LR and .22 mag, an approach that could be implemented with off the shelf products.

So, that would leave figuring out some way of creating a barrel insert or interchangeable barrel to swap out the 12ga with a barrel capable of firing .410, 45LC, 454, and 460SW.  Since this is a wish and the goal is to be able to fire as many types of 45 cal ammunition as feasible, why not add the capability to chamber .45 ACP (a ubiquitous round) and the .45-70 Government?

One could choose a barrel insert or interchangeable barrel so that one could also swap out the 12ga for the 30cal family of products (30/06, .308) if that was their cup of tea.

----------


## marberry

thatd be one **** of a .45 ACP barrell to fire 45/70 Gov. i fired a marlin in that caliber at my uncles ranch and it knocked me over. but many of these rounds have outer dimensions on the brass that dont fit with eachother. my personal opinion on survival rifles is the 10/22 due to the ammo (.22LR hyper velocity is actually more powerful then .25ACP or .32ACP) iv been thinking of just saying **** it to the gun laws and making a rail gun (electromagnetic field to propel a hardened steel ball bearing fast enough to go through a 2 by 4) but palladium is just too damn expensive (its actually traded as a precious metal and along with gold silver and platinum its the only metal canada makes a bullion of) for the amount id need to get a ball bearing going 3000 fps. thinking of using a rifled pvc pipe for the barrel and a taser for the electronic parts but its just a pipe dream. best thing about a rail gun is there is absolutely no noise apart from the humming. 

and a wildcat means the only ammunition you are ever going to have is what you start with. and i cant even imagine what the powder charge on a vulcan would do to a .22 round.  

and you could always Make a 4 barrell hinge action. not that hard actually i made the plans for something along thoes lines but with more of an M4 look to it (2 pistol grips and a telescoping spring loaded recoil reducing stock) and a 4 pronged plate on the end of a spring loaded bolt made to fire 4 10 gauge sabots at the same time, now That would be some fun recoil ehh?

----------


## A190

Well, I guess it would be my ar with the 22 adapter.  YEs I have one of those I keep with the ar.  Makes a great little squirrel gun and is very fast and easy to change back to 223.
I real SHTF and my ar is available there is my .303 with scope and if that isn't available, I have a great pair of PF Flyer's.............Now at home its just the old Stevens pump 12...............I reckon from reading most post here that the  sidearm is relegated to kit status.........

----------


## reluctantpawn

I have an AR-7 and is is an O.K. piece for what it is. I cam across the Marlin Papoose in stainless bought it and never looked back. It is two piece instead of three, and the barrel is attached to the action. It shoots almost as well as my Ruger 10-22, and has much less weight. It is heavier tyhan the AR-7 though.

reluctantpawn

----------


## Runs With Beer

Ruger 1022 Nuf said.

----------


## minuteman

I have owned several different makes and models of .22 caliber rifles.  I just purchased a ruger 1022 rifle because they are simply the best, most reliable semiautomatic .22 rifles probably in the world. I sold all of my other .22 rifles because they jammed time after time even after thoroughly cleaning the gun.  Ask anyone who owns a ruger 1022 how often it jams.  Not saying they can't or won't jam ever, but they don't jam very often and the type of ammunition can make a difference on function of the gun.  They are accurate and cheap to shoot, not to mention a decent self defense weapon if the situation requires it.  Also you can easily throw a brick of 500 rounds in your pack.

----------


## Tuckahoe

Ok here is some food for thought. If my only need for a firearm was to provide meat to eat I would be much better served with a shotgun than a .22 rifle. Of all the hunting I have done for deer, squirrels, rabbits I saw birds ever single time. I wish I could say the same about the other game that I was hunting. There is one rifle that comes to mind as a near do all the Savage 24. The Savage 24 comes in combos that would fit most situations from .22/.410 to 30.30/12ga and even .223/12ga You would be the judge of which fits your needs best but any would be a great combo rifle.
Another neat option is with a Rossi youth combo. The Rossi combo is one rifle with two barrels one a 16 inch .22 long rifle and the other an 18 inch 20ga shotgun. Both are very compact and fit into a zip up carry case. The 16" .22 barrel has fiber optic sites and is drilled and tapped for a scope to be mounted if wanted. The best thing about this package is the price I bought one new at Dicks sporting goods for my son for $89. This is cheaper than buying just one used rifles in most gun shops.

----------


## Gray Wolf

Here is a .22 rifle (w/5 shot clip) that won both the Editor's Choice and Great Buy for 2008.
With stainless-steel action and barrel and a laminated hardwood stock along with Savage's new Accu-Trigger, which is adjustable down to less than 2lbs.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/article_g...n-Test-%2708/7

Every review I found on the Mark ll BV and the BTVS (Mark ll heavy barrels), were amazed at it's accuracy and value for the money. And especially the accuracy using the Lapua ammo @ 100yds.

----------


## Sarge47

> Ok here is some food for thought. If my only need for a firearm was to provide meat to eat I would be much better served with a shotgun than a .22 rifle. Of all the hunting I have done for deer, squirrels, rabbits I saw birds ever single time. I wish I could say the same about the other game that I was hunting. There is one rifle that comes to mind as a near do all the Savage 24. The Savage 24 comes in combos that would fit most situations from .22/.410 to 30.30/12ga and even .223/12ga You would be the judge of which fits your needs best but any would be a great combo rifle.
> Another neat option is with a Rossi youth combo. The Rossi combo is one rifle with two barrels one a 16 inch .22 long rifle and the other an 18 inch 20ga shotgun. Both are very compact and fit into a zip up carry case. The 16" .22 barrel has fiber optic sites and is drilled and tapped for a scope to be mounted if wanted. The best thing about this package is the price I bought one new at Dicks sporting goods for my son for $89. This is cheaper than buying just one used rifles in most gun shops.


Once upon a time I had a model 24 .22/20ga. but got hard-pressed for cash so I sold it.  :EEK!:  Dumb!  Dumb!  Dumb!  Just recently bought a couple of the Rossi Combo guns for me & the misses; really cool fire arm that covers all the bases! :Cool:

----------


## Sarge47

> Here is a .22 rifle (w/5 shot clip) that won both the Editor's Choice and Great Buy for 2008.
> With stainless-steel action and barrel and a laminated hardwood stock along with Savage's new Accu-Trigger, which is adjustable down to less than 2lbs.
> http://www.outdoorlife.com/article_g...n-Test-%2708/7
> 
> Every review I found on the Mark ll BV and the BTVS (Mark ll heavy barrels), were amazed at it's accuracy and value for the money. And especially the accuracy using the Lapua ammo @ 100yds.


Way too expensive for me, thanks. :Cool:

----------


## klkak

I have this really cool little gun that nobody seems to like but be.....it's .22 hornet over .410.  It weights in at about 4 lbs.  It's made of all stainless steel.  To bad they don't make them any more. :Big Grin: 

Here's a picture for those of you who haven't figured out what I'm referring to.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## crashdive123

> I have this really cool little gun that nobody seems to like but be.....it's .22 hornet over .410.  It weights in at about 4 lbs.  It's made of all stainless steel.  To bad they don't make them any more.
> 
> Here's a picture for those of you who haven't figured out what I'm referring to.
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Aw shucks.  Now you're just teasing Gray Wolf.

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## tsitenha

Some more info on this firearm:

www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.htm

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## crashdive123

Looks like a broken link.  Was this the one?  http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.html

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## klkak

> Some more info on this firearm:
> 
> www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.htm


I had modified my M-6 long before he even bought his.  Some where on here there are some pictures of mine.

p.s. sorry GW. didn't mean to turn you green with envy :Smile:

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## Leighman

[QUOTE=klkak;90160]I have this really cool little gun that nobody seems to like but be.....it's .22 hornet over .410.  It weights in at about 4 lbs.  It's made of all stainless steel.  To bad they don't make them any more. :Big Grin: /QUOTE]

Great little rifle!
I had one years ago...I think I paid around $225 for it NIB (unfortunately, I traded it off).

I think mine was parkerized (and in .22 LR over .410 only, no .22 Hornet at the time) and IIRC, it was before Springfield Armory introduced a stainless steel version.

They eventually fixed my only complaint by placing a guard around the trigger (or whatever typle of "trigger bar" they originally employed much like the GI issue version).

The rimfire's sights were "adequate" and not precise but they seemed very sturdy. Length of pull was short, of course it was designed as a "survival" gun.

The extra ammo storage area in the buttstock was a plus.

All-in-all, I'm sorry to see that it was discontinued.  :Frown:

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## tsitenha

Yep thats the one, not very good at computers and info,

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## tsitenha

I would think the Savage 24-C in .22lr/20ga would be just the ticket, if I could find one that is.

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## minuteman

Ah, that would be the M6 Scout Rifle.  I almost bought one of these because I do believe they are a very versatile survival weapon.  You can take both large and small game.  However, the only draw back with this weapon is if or when you find yourself in a self defense situation, you will probably be wishing you had a semiautomatic rifle.  For this reason, I went with the Ruger 1022.

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## chiggersngrits

Remington has a line of shotgun/rifle combos out. It's their model SPR94 series. They come in 410/.22, 410/.22wmr and 12/.223rem. The 410 models weigh 7.5 pounds, 24 in. barrel and msrp of $390. The 12gauge weights 8 pounds and an msrp of $650.

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## Gray Wolf

> Aw shucks.  Now you're just teasing Gray Wolf.


Yep, Kev couldn't just leave it @ an M6 Survival rifle, noooo he had to, and let me quote;



> I have this really cool little gun that nobody seems to like but be.....it's .22 hornet over .410. It weights in at about 4 lbs. It's made of all stainless steel.To bad they don't make them any more.


Had to mention the one he has is a *.22 Hornet*, and *the all stainless steel one.* JUST LIKE the Model I HAD!
Then ends with, *"To bad they don't make them any more ".* AND Tops THAT with a *Smiley face!* I even heard the *Na Na NaNa Na......* But if friends can't pick on each other, who can they pick on...
Just so everyone knows, IMHO, it's the best trap line gun out there, and I'm glad that my friend has one.

----------


## Gray Wolf

> Way too expensive for me, thanks.


Sarge, the street price for the Mark ll BTVS is around $350, the Mark ll BV street price is around $250. That's why they won the Awards for Editor's Choice (it's accuracy-best .22 tested, and value for the money) Hence - Award for Best Buy .22 for 2008.

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## sgtdraino

> Had to mention the one he has is a [B].22 Hornet


I'm not too familiar with the .22 Hornet round. I seem to recall that it's more powerful than .22lr, but not as powerful as .22wmr?

How's the price-per-round compair? .22lr is super cheap, .22wmr is kinda expensive. What about .22 Hornet?

How about availability? Is it an easy round to find?

Can a .22 Hornet carbine also fire .22lr?

What is the attraction of .22 Hornet?

----------


## klkak

> I'm not too familiar with the .22 Hornet round. I seem to recall that it's more powerful than .22lr, but not as powerful as .22wmr?
> 
> How's the price-per-round compair? .22lr is super cheap, .22wmr is kinda expensive. What about .22 Hornet?
> 
> How about availability? Is it an easy round to find?
> 
> Can a .22 Hornet carbine also fire .22lr?
> 
> What is the attraction of .22 Hornet?


The .22lr kicks out a 40 gr. bullet at about 1200 fps.

The .22 wmr kicks it's 40 gr. bullet out at about 2000 fps.

The .22 Hornet kick's out a 45 gr. bullet at about 2600 fps.  Hornady loads them to 3100 fps with a 35 gr. v-max bullet.  Winchester also has a hi-v load.

Remington 45 gr. hollow point's are about $45.00 per 50 rd. box here in Alaska. But.......They are reloadable.  :Big Grin:   I've even loaded them with black powder.  :Big Grin:

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## Mike00006

My favorite survival gun would probably be a crosman 1377c air pistol. Its light, self sufficient, and it can take quite a beating. Plus you can modify it to be more accurate and add some type of sighting system. Another added bonus is that the ammunition for it is cheap, light (500 .177 pellets is about 10 ounces) and takes up very little space.

I would personally add a steel breech to it for stability, and put a .22 caliber barrel on it for added energy retention. But stay away from power modifications because it could cause the pin in the striking hammer to snap off.

Its not a rifle, but it has enough accuracy to compete with .22LRs at up to 40 yards. Also it is very quiet.

I actually just purchased a .22 Magnum yesterday, a Marlin 925M. Its a very nice peice and it is very capable of shooting 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards. I was shivering so much today I simply couldn't group at all. Winter is hitting us pretty good, and acting very weird at that. It was 45- 50 at 2 pm and about 25 at 4pm.

In response to Sgtdraino's post (other than what klkak already covered), a rifle chambered for a .22 hornet round cannot fire a .22 long rifle or any other rimfire cartridge for that matter. It has a necked down cartridge, kind of like the 17HMR. 

The .22 hornet round is a bit hard to find around here, even cabelas does not carry them in this area. I would be interested in buying a .22 hornet though, the Ruger 77/22s are very nice. 

My experience with the cartridge is very limited, I have seen a rifle chambered for .22 hornet, I have seen a .22 hornet cartridge, but only 1 person I know actually has one.... and he is a bit of a BS'er. I would imagine that they are more accurate than a .22 magnum, but less accurate than a .223. If it were such a good round you would see more of them.

----------


## flandersander

For a survival rifle, I would stay away from air rifles. Yes it can shoot squirrels and rabbits, but try to kill a deer at 100 yards with a bb gun. Not gonna happen. A .22lr would have trouble, but a .243 would be good. Cheap ammo and large animal capabilities. I would take the .22lr because of its versitility. BUT, to each his own.

----------


## Sarge47

As previously mentioned elsewhere in this forum, before the AR-7 came along, there was the AR-5; it was issued to the SAC (Strategic Air Command) as a Survival rifle.  It was bolt-action, as opposed to semi-auto, and was calibered to the .22 Hornet. :Cool:

----------


## Mike00006

I agree with you completely. My choice would easily go to a .22 long rifle or .22 magnum bolt action if it was available at the time and I did not have any type of weight limit for my kit. But that doesn't mean it is my favorite. 

To take a .22 long rifle and try and bag a deer at 100 yards with it is really stretching it, but with a .22 mag it would be very possible. Hollowpoints or a homemade partition would be nice if you have the accuracy.


A few years ago, I saw a survival rifle somewhere; It would shoot both .22 LR and .410. The other option was .243 or 22 hornet (cant remember which) with the 410. Anyone know who made it? I think I might buy one if I can find it. There was also a handy ammo storage compartment in the stock, might I add.

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## crashdive123

Mike00006 - check out post 249 of this thread.  M6 Scout Rifle - a bit togher to find nowadays (at least at the price most want to pay).

----------


## Mike00006

I ruled that out because they do not make them anymore. Maybe its just my memory but I believe that it was up for sale in a magazine , maybe a Penna. game comission handbook or somewhere on the net. But is there any chance that a copy of that rifle was made by another company?

----------


## sgtdraino

> I ruled that out because they do not make them anymore. Maybe its just my memory but I believe that it was up for sale in a magazine , maybe a Penna. game comission handbook or somewhere on the net. But is there any chance that a copy of that rifle was made by another company?


Maybe you're thinking of the Savage 24?

----------


## klkak

> In response to Sgtdraino's post (other than what klkak already covered), a rifle chambered for a .22 hornet round cannot fire a .22 long rifle or any other rimfire cartridge for that matter. It has a necked down cartridge, kind of like the 17HMR. 
> 
> The .22 hornet round is a bit hard to find around here, even cabelas does not carry them in this area. I would be interested in buying a .22 hornet though, the Ruger 77/22s are very nice. 
> 
> My experience with the cartridge is very limited, I have seen a rifle chambered for .22 hornet, I have seen a .22 hornet cartridge, but only 1 person I know actually has one.... and he is a bit of a BS'er. I would imagine that they are more accurate than a .22 magnum, but less accurate than a .223. If it were such a good round you would see more of them.


I have two 22 hornet rifles. My Ruger 77/22 is every bit as accurate as a similarly set up .223.  The .223 has the advantage of higher velocity, there for longer range. You don't see allot of them because to many people are obsessed by high velocity. Not because it's not as good a round as the .223.

The next time I get to go to the range I'll fire a couple of groups from both the 77/22 hornet and the M-6 scout .22 hornet and post pictures of the targets.

----------


## Stairman

After reading the good reveiws here for the Ruger 10/22,I have decided to buy one.I dont currently have a 22 and want a semi-auto that doesnt hang up.The camo combo with 25 round clip is the one for me.Probably be my next purchase real soon for the small game season fixin to open up.My old Marlin was not dependable and might as well have been a bolt action.I have a T/C encore in 7mag and thought of getting a 22 barrel for it but it would still be a single shot which I dont mind for deer and hogs but need a quick shooter for those running squirrels.And no doubt a cheap round and compact for any survival situations that might arise.

----------


## crashdive123

Stairman - Shooters on University Blvd. frequently has sales and offers the Ruger 10/22 at a pretty good price.  Of course there is alway Wal Mart.

----------


## primeelite

I have a tendency to like the magnum over the long rifle just because if I find a little larger game such as a deer I want to be able to take it down without having to track it for miles and get far off course or lost.

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## Sarge47

> Stairman - Shooters on University Blvd. frequently has sales and offers the Ruger 10/22 at a pretty good price.  Of course there is alway Wal Mart.


Most Wal-Marts, including ours, has quit selling fire-arms; leaving us to the mercy of the higher-priced store. :Mad:

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## nell67

Yep,ours stopped selling them several years ago :Frown:

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## crashdive123

> Most Wal-Marts, including ours, has quit selling fire-arms; leaving us to the mercy of the higher-priced store.


They still sell em here in Hooterville....I mean Jacksonville. :Wink:

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## primeelite

I have been to a few in different cities and they didn't have any firearms anymore just bows.

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## Beans

Our Wall mart sell firearms. As for a survival gun I have a couple of adapters that allow the .22  to fired in a larger caliber gun. I have had the adopters so long I don't rmemeber where I got them.

The adapter are made to look and function like the host shell but the hole in the rear had been machined to accept a .22 shell.

#1 is for a .22 hornet. 
#2 is for a ,22-250
#3 is for a .223

Once you fire the Combo shell yo remove the host casing, then push out the fired .22 shell with a nail, stick, whatever.

The machined hole for the .22 is offset so that the centerfire firing pin will strike the rim of the .22 rimfire.

They are reasonably accurate out to 25 yards.

Favorite??

Savage model 24 O/U .22 over a 20  guage
or
Remington Nylon 66 .22  almost indestructable

An O/U .223 over a 20 guage with one of the .22 adaptor cartridges. I could shoot all the .22 from CB caps to HV HPs, all the .223's and 20 guage shot and slugs. That would cover about anything in the lower 48

----------


## tipacanoe

Mike00006, here is a link that might hook you up with the M6 Scout rifle
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/springfield/M69201.asp

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## pgvoutdoors

I like the Savage 24 O/U (22LR/20ga).  This combo makes a well rounded hunting system.

Link: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...ch_notes.htm/1

----------


## outbac1

If it's for survival it's small game time. A 22lr is more than adequate for the job. Any reliable rifle will do the job. I would prefer a bolt action over a semi as they can be more tolerant of dirt and cold. Shorter and lighter is easier to carry. A 22lr tends to reach max velocity in about 16" - 18" so a long barrel is not an advantage. It is easy to carry 100 rds which will get a lot of game. 

  My 2nd choice would be a shotgun in 20,16 or 12ga. Ammunition is heavier and bulkier but it can be so versitile. Slugs for big game or life threats, 7 1/2 for birds and lots inbetween. A single shot would be sufficient but I have a Win 1300 Turkey with an 18" barrel that weighs 6lbs empty. Many rifles weigh more than that.

----------


## Mike00006

I think that that might have been what I was looking at awhile back, if not then it was probably that springfield M6 in the earlier post. 

In response to the earlier threads about wal-mart selling rifles:

A few days ago I spend some money on a Marlin 925 in .22 magnum. There were a few diferrent rifles there for less than 300 dollars. One was a Ruger 10/22, the other was a marlin 917 varmint (which is was I was originally going to get... its a .17HMR). The 10/22 was only $230 or so. I was fighting myself not to buy the 10/22 but chose the marlin on account that I already have a match 10/22 rifle.

A 10/22 would make a good survival rifle if you thought about it. They do not jam up with quality ammo, can go thousands of shots without a cleaning (do at your own risk), and are pretty compact the way it is (my rifle has a 16 1/2 inch barrel). Plus the triggers on the carbine 10/22s are very nice once you get used to them.

Outbac1: I also have a winny 1300, and they are very nice guns. Normally I take it when I go camping and load it with #1 shot in a 3 inch cartridge. The pellets are plated with steel or nickel so they are non-toxic. It packs a kick with the shells but it will knock anything out of the air if its in the general direction. 

Can you fire slugs out of yours? Im afraid to fire them out of mine due to the pressures created.

----------


## klkak

> As previously mentioned elsewhere in this forum, before the AR-7 came along, there was the AR-5; it was issued to the SAC (Strategic Air Command) as a Survival rifle.  It was bolt-action, as opposed to semi-auto, and was calibered to the .22 Hornet.


The AR-5 (MA-1 aircrew survival rifle) Was a 4 shot bolt action take down rifle made by H&R.  There were very few of them made.  They were designed like the AR-7 in that the taken down rifle was stowed in the buttstock.  It this configuration it would float like the AR-7.

I have handled the MA-1 and was not that impressed with it.  Then again I'm not very impressed with the AR-7.

----------


## flandersander

Expecting a no, but can my ruger 10/22 lr carbine shoot .22 magnum loads? Is there any way to modify it (new barrel etc) so that it can?

----------


## Stairman

> I have a tendency to like the magnum over the long rifle just because if I find a little larger game such as a deer I want to be able to take it down without having to track it for miles and get far off course or lost.


I wouldnt be planning on making any body shots on deer with a 22lr.In a pinch I would shoot em in the eye for a quick kill.

----------


## SARKY

No the 10-22 can't shoot .22magnums. The magnum round is both longe and has a larger diameter. That is because the .22lr uses a heeled or stepped bullet where as the .22 magnum uses a bullet the same diameter as the .223. In fact some of the new ammo for the .22 mag are loaded with a jacketed V-max type bullet. You could find yourself a 10-22M (and no I'm not giving mine up!)

----------


## Stairman

> Stairman - Shooters on University Blvd. frequently has sales and offers the Ruger 10/22 at a pretty good price.  Of course there is alway Wal Mart.


I used to go there when it was Southside gun.Ill check their price and compare with Gander,Dicks ect.I live in Middleburg area and dont get to town too often but will go whoever has it at the best price.Thanks!

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## SARKY

Mike00006,
For the money you spent on your new (Does it still have that new gun smell?) rifle, you could have purchased a .17 barrel for your 10-22 and doubled the capability of your 10-22.

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## Stairman

I didnt realize they sold interchangable barrels[10/22]

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## Mike00006

> Mike00006,
> For the money you spent on your new (Does it still have that new gun smell?) rifle, you could have purchased a .17 barrel for your 10-22 and doubled the capability of your 10-22.


Yeah, I thought about that but I always wanted the .22 mag Marlin 925... ever since I was 14. So I bought it, and it hasnt let me down. The trigger is very nice on this gun, and it is a tackdriver. I can keep it under 1 moa at 100 yards if its not very windy.

The VMax bullets from Hornady work the best out of it.

No, it doesnt still smell like a new gun, because I painted it the day I bought it. Now it smells like varmint death.... Cant wait to take it out for a spin at the local critters. Small game came in last week.

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## SARKY

Have you shot any of the .17 rimfires?

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## SARKY

> I didnt realize they sold interchangable barrels[10/22]


Go to www.volquartsen.com and check out all the goodies available. The one thing I reccomend above all else is their match trigger group. It makes a world of difference in the trigger pull. Both of my 10-22s amd my 10-22M have them installed.

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## sgtdraino

> Expecting a no, but can my ruger 10/22 lr carbine shoot .22 magnum loads? Is there any way to modify it (new barrel etc) so that it can?





> No the 10-22 can't shoot .22magnums. <snip> You could find yourself a 10-22M (and no I'm not giving mine up!)


flandersander, I suggest you check out gunbroker.com for 10/22 Magnums. Ruger does not make them anymore, but used ones show up on there pretty regularly.

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## Sourdough

Or buy the Remington 597 .22 Magnum for 1/3 the price. My guess is Ruger will make another run of 10/22 Magnums.

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## flandersander

Is there anything I can buy that will allow my gun to shoot 22 magnums? Like a different barrel and clip or something?

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## sgtdraino

> Is there anything I can buy that will allow my gun to shoot 22 magnums? Like a different barrel and clip or something?


Sorry, I really don't think so. The pressures in the .22 Magnum cartridge are significantly greater than .22lr. A standard 10/22 is just not built to take that.

If it's any consolation, the concensus on this forum is that the standard 10/22 is a superior survival rifle to the 10/22 Magnum.

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## flandersander

Really? So like the action couldn't take it? Yeah the pressures are too great but if I had a 22 magnum barrel and a clip suitable for the longer loads wouldn't it work? OR no the action would go. I hate to ask the same question twice, but a few specifics on what would happen would make me feel better. lol.

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## fury_m

If I had my choice and I do own one......I would like my reliable Winchester Model 94 30-30.  Kicks butt in the brush and has never let me down

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## crashdive123

Hey Fury M, how about shooting on over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.

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## flandersander

> Hey Fury M, how about shooting on over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.


Wow man, if I had a nickel for every time you came up with a sweet way of telling people to introduce themselves, i would have grain silos full of nickels.

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## fury_m

Have now done that....am I cool yet  :Smile:

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## crashdive123

You've been good ever since you registered.  I just personally like somebody that is going to exchange ideas with me to intro themselves so I have a base of understanding or a starting point.  Not meant to offend.

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## fury_m

I rarely take offense at anything....and hadn't even noticed that forum til you mentioned it.  I'm sure we will have plent of entertaining information passed through

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## SARKY

> Sorry, I really don't think so. The pressures in the .22 Magnum cartridge are significantly greater than .22lr. A standard 10/22 is just not built to take that.
> 
> If it's any consolation, the concensus on this forum is that the standard 10/22 is a superior survival rifle to the 10/22 Magnum.


Actually it was a 10-22 that was seriously modified that led to the introduction of the 10-22M. If I remember correctly the bolt had to be shortened in order to get enough rearward movement to chamber the next round. Extra springs were added so the bolt wouldn't beat the reciever to death. A weight was added forward of the reciever and attached to the bolt to give the bolt more mass. the barrel was either rechambered or a .22mag barrel from a Marlin was used, can't remember which. Lastly the reciever was radically cut open to make it all work. It really was a Frankenstien monster. The 10-22m is considerably heavier than the 10-22, at least it feels that way, so i can't wait to get a carbonfiber barrel for it.

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## welderguy

That would be my model 94 30/30. best gun I own IMHO of course. but im partial and bias LOL.

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## Sarge47

Then there was the Ruger 4/44 that held 4 .44 Magnum rounds.  It was built along the same lines as the 10/22, but handles the .44 Mag.. The idea was, I believe, to have a rifle that used the same ammo as the handgun you might carry. :Cool:

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## klkak

> Then there was the Ruger 4/44 that held 4 .44 Magnum rounds.  It was built along the same lines as the 10/22, but handles the .44 Mag.. The idea was, I believe, to have a rifle that used the same ammo as the handgun you might carry.


That would be the Ruger M44 Deerfield carbine .44 magnum. It has Rugers detachable rotary magazine.  It is an updated version of the Deerstalker carbine introduced in 1959 or 1960 which had a tubular magazine.

I own two .44 magnum lever action carbines.  One is a model 92 Winchester the other is a model 94 winchester. Two very sweet guns! :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

> That would be the Ruger M44 Deerfield carbine .44 magnum. It has Rugers detachable rotary magazine.  It is an updated version of the Deerstalker carbine introduced in 1959 or 1960 which had a tubular magazine.


Originally called the Ruger Deerstalker, till sued by Ithaca, who claimed the name was too close too the name for it's Model 37 Deer Slayer. Bill Ruger was livid.

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## klkak

> Originally called the Ruger Deerstalker, till sued by Ithaca, who claimed the name was too close too the name for it's Model 37 Deer Slayer. Bill Ruger was livid.


I like Ruger firearms.  I wish they'd get into traditional style lever actions like the model 92 Winchester to go with there Blackhawks and Bisely's.

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