# General > General Chat >  So, how bout that carona virus?

## rebel

Cant believe this subject hasnt been brought up. This stuff is infecting more everyday. Ive read the mortality rate was 2% when we first heard about it. Now Im reading 12-19% depending on where you read about it. Ive also read that it mostly kills the elderly and those with precondition health conditions like diabetes. Ive read that it is affecting those who have type A- blood more than others. Theyre saying you could be asymptomatic for 21-24 days. Some are prepping for a quarantine. Some say it was an engineered virus. What are yall hearing and doing? 🙉🙈🙊

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## Rick

The annual flu is still way more dangerous at this point. In the U.S. alone, the flu is responsible for 180,000 hospitalizations and 10,000 deaths according the CDC. It has caused over 19 million illnesses. That's just in the U.S. Get your flu shot!

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## rebel

Heres a chart that maps the growth 

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/a...23467b48e9ecf6

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## madmax

The first year I taught kindergarten I was sick the whole year.  I started getting my flu shot and hep vac.  Still do.  So far nothing will help against the corona flu.  But there's several teams working on it...until it mutates.  I have a beard.  The N95 mask doesn't really block the virus and I'd have to shave and get fit for a haz mat mask.  Then walk around in it when I go out.  Then disinfect everything when I get home.  Then disinfect my wife when she gets home from school.  And make her stop carpooling.  Our plan is handwashing.  Limited trips to stores.  And like everybody should already be doing... prep for a bug in until it dies off.  If you're in hurricane or blizzard territory, it's not that big of a jump from what you're already doing.

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## WolfVanZandt

First, I no longer believe anything in the news.  I remember a bunch of scares (Legionnaires, West Nile, several flus) that fizzled out quickly. And Rick's right...the flu is scarier. Cars are definitely scarier.

Evidently, bodies can deal with this one (that's what "kills the elderly and people with suppressed immune systems" means). The way to prep is to maintain your general health.

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## rebel

I hear ya but, when has there been quarantine and cancelled flights for the every year flu ? You might be right. Time will tell.

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## madmax

We are stocking up on Clorox wipes.

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## Rick

Don't use those in the bathroom. Just sayin'....

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## madmax

That mistake has been made by both of us in the house... once.

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## crashdive123

There's a joke in there about anal bleaching..........butt, I'll back out of this gracefully.

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## madmax

Now see Mr. Passive Aggressive.  You provoke, then play the victim.  Just wait.  My biting sarcasm will persevere this next camp.

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## madmax

BTW. I can't see back there and don't really care what color it is.  How PC is that,

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## madmax

We've really stooped low.  From Novel Corona virus to anal bleaching?  I blame it on the submariner.

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## rebel

Im not advocating for this guy but if his hypothesis is true...
Take a read:
https://halturnerradioshow.com/index...ne-no-trucking

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## Rick

Dang it! A virus that spreads by urination. I just have to stay away from people that go around peeing on other people and I should be okay. As for the poopers of the world. I can honestly say that once my kids were house broken I've never been pooped on so I'm good to go there as well.  :Thumbup1:

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## rebel

I dont know if he isnt the guy referred to as doomer Doug. I like reading the comments section in alt news.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> The first year I taught kindergarten .....


I stopped worrying about any type of illness when I read this....

I think I just figured out who created "Florida Man" though....


Alan

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## crashdive123

> We've really stooped low.  From Novel Corona virus to anal bleaching?  I blame it on the submariner.


Hey, I'm not the one that uses Clorox wipes as tp.

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## Rick

Well, it does give new meaning to the phrase, "shines like a dime in a goats..." you know.

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## rebel

More predictions 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/14/...e-of-covid-19/

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## crashdive123

I certainly don't know any more than what I read about this.  One of the problems is that the information that the Chinese government releases is suspect at best and lies at worst.  It seems that all of the "whistle blowers" end up dead.  The doc that originally let the world know of the existence of the Coronavirus is dead.  Another doc that reported the Chinese government was telling the world that there were less than 2,000 cases stated that there were well over 90,000 (no telling where the real number is now).  She has not been seen since her public statements.

I know that our government and docs are doing what they can to ensure it does not spread.  We all need to do our part as well.

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## rebel

Prep and awareness. Same for a hike. Its who we are. Crash, if you and the Mrs. want to go rural, yall can come here.

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## rebel

NoKo has zero. Yea right. What a bunch of dingdongs

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## Fixit

Well I keep an eye on it but not to concerned yet. By my numbers death rate is more like 12% than 2%. They take cases verse deaths and I take recovered verses deaths . 

The infection rate is high 1 person infects 3 to 5 others depending on who's numbers you use . Best plan from my view is to be ready to bug in and I'm always ready to do that.

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## LowKey

Not worried. But prepared to bug in. Mostly. Been slowly refilling stock things that somehow got low, but under control.

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## kyratshooter

You have to also look at the timing of this "plague".

It has resulted in travel restrictions world wide, stock market fluctuations world wide, and general fear which has kept people at home and isolated, even though its impact has been almost zero outside China itself and not that hard there.  With a population of 1.5 billion they have more deaths daily from people falling off ladders than this virus.

It is a big deal in Europe right now and causing a new upsurge in the use of the old survival forums that had just about died over there.  Those folks are not prepared for anything and believe everything the media of any kind throws their way.  

Last week there was a headline on Sky News that a "super carrier" had brought in new infection and doubled the number of cases hitting the NHS.  They were up to 4!   Yes, their cases doubled in one day, up to four people!  They have a population of 60 million, and are known for their world wide business travels.  People going to china daily, and coming back, and they have only 4 cases.

Several hundred Brits have died from the "normal" flu during the same period. No one raises an eyebrow.  Over there flu shots are free and lots of people  refuse to take them. 

Amazingly all this restriction, fluctuation and concern occurred starting on the day GB went into Brixit, which was to have problems with   GUESS WHAT??  travel restrictions, stock market fluctuations and free movement into places that no longer had reciprocal agreements outside the EU treaties.

It has also occurred at the height of the traditional "slow season" in consumer buying, January and February.  This did not occur untill the Christmas buying season was over.   And you must also note that there have been no restrictions on goods shipped to anywhere from China, where they were probably packed by "infected or exposed" package handlers.  They have stopped "infected people" but let the flow of goods continue.  

As Europe settles into their new normal this "pandemic" will fade into a nonevent.

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## LowKey

There has definitely been a slow-down in export goods from China. Whether that is due to export restrictions, or workers unable to show up for work due to lock-downs is unknown. Some of our suppliers have been sourcing elsewhere (We buy literally miles of LED tape.) A friend of mine who works for an electronics developer is having trouble with PCB board parts.

Had a laugh this morning at the grocery store tabloid's front page splash touting this virus as engineered by China to send to the US.

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## WolfVanZandt

It's less deadly than the flu but since it's more transmissible it will probably end up infecting a third of the world's population and killing more than the flu. They're talking about having a cold, flu, and Corona season. If you "prep" for the flu, you might want to prep for this. Otherwise....eh

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## Cliff Booth

> It's less deadly than the flu but since it's more transmissible it will probably end up infecting a third of the world's population and killing more than the flu. They're talking about having a cold, flu, and Corona season. If you "prep" for the flu, you might want to prep for this. Otherwise....eh


Less deadly than the flu doesnt seem accurate. Flu isnt killing 2.2% like China is reporting (and you have to strongly suspect they are under-reporting). Flu is about 0.1% or less. Well probably get a better idea of the death rate by observing Italy over the next few weeks. Plus, the disease has been spreading pretty rapidly, but taking a long time to kill anyone. So the way they are calculating death rate is by total number of known cases compared to total deaths. So all those new diagnoses that havent had time to really feel the effects are being counted as not dead. 

Additionally, China has in the neighborhood of 500 million people on lockdown. For reference, that about 1/20th of the world and about 1.5x the USs population. 

Not trying to get everyone riled up, but although there are a lot of unknowns at this point, it seems like it would be a pretty big deal if it got loose over here. 


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## Rick

Raw numbers, not percentage.

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## rebel

https://news.yahoo.com/italy-put-12-...130957022.html

It took off in Italy like a wildfire. Empty grocery stores. The military enforcement of lockdowns. Be prepared. The CDC just said on Trumps report that the spread is inevitable.

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## Rick

SARS was also a Coronavirus. It spread to more that two dozen countries including the U.S. This new one will probably follow a similar path

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Chuck Schumer sees this as a "Golden" opportunity to get a couple $8.4billion in borrowed money out there floating around saving the world.  If some of it lands in his and the DemocRats lap, well, ... it was the coronavirus's fault.....

SF declared a state of emergency and they have "0" cases.  I guess the threat of coronavirus is scarier than people crapping in the streets.... Really though, crap in the streets, thousands of homeless crack/meth heads sharing needles, coronavirus pandemic on the way..... what could go wrong?


Alan

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## Rick

I know. Let's make California a sanctuary state. What could go wrong?

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## rebel

Japan closing all schools:

http://https://www.dailymail.co.uk/n...try-month.html

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye. People are losing their minds. That's what people do, but that's not a symptom of the Corona virus.

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## rebel

Hope for the best and plan for the worse. If someone has to stay home with the children, ya might need to plan.

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## nell67

> SARS was also a Coronavirus. It spread to more that two dozen countries including the U.S. This new one will probably follow a similar path


 With SARS, I was working in a warehouse and we were forbidden to physically touch any cargo that came through the doors from Canada, wore gloves and masks when entering trucks to unload and the driver were given instructions to go into the breakroom and sit, and for the ones who refused to due that whether just plain stubborn due to language barriers a red square was drawn on the floor for them to stand, I never understood the reasoning, nothing they touched was cleaned and disinfected when they left, and the freight was handled by others who were not wearing protective anything. 

 On another note, there now has been a case of COVID-19 in California with no known contact with an infected person. They say that this cornavirus does not live on surfaces for long so getting infected through touching merchandise is slim to none. Maybe not the case??

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## rebel

Its an over hyped transmissible bad flu. Its the strings attached that could make it a problem. Such as quarantine, economy, school closures, etc.

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## Cliff Booth

> SARS was also a Coronavirus. It spread to more that two dozen countries including the U.S. This new one will probably follow a similar path


There were more cases of this thing in about a month than the entire nine month run of SARS. Its evidently much more contagious. 


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## WolfVanZandt

I completely agree, Rebel.

Cliff, you're right, it is more contagious. So is the flu. So is a cold.

Many people believe that one of the main reasons that Christianity spread so fast in the later Roman Empire was the plague. Whereas most people baricaded themselves in their homes to avoid a contagion they couldn't avoid, the Christians went to their sick neighbors and helped them despite the risks. The effect was double - since people were more likely to survive with care, more of the sick neighbors survived, and were converted because people were so impressed by the heroic efforts of the Christians. And, of course, the Christians were caring for each other, too.

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## Cliff Booth

Another big problem is the apparent percentage of patients needing hospitalization. Supposedly much higher than with flu and much higher in the 30s and 40s age groups. These are the folks that usually just stay at home if they get sick and come out fine. So there is concern that hospitals could be overwhelmed. 


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## WolfVanZandt

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...019-vs-the-flu

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## WolfVanZandt

The "news" about this virus is hype. Look at responsible sources...I would consider John Hopkins and Mayo responsible. And keep in mind what's going on in the world. Neither of the only-two-parties-that-matter (sarcasm here) are getting what they want in the popular polls. They will, predictably, be looking for a common-enemy distraction to get voters' minds off the elections. The reason I'm reading this forum instead of other "survival" forums is that it's a level-headed group. I really appreciate that. Level-headedness is a primary survival trait!

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## Cliff Booth

> https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...019-vs-the-flu


I mean thats a little misleading. Of course it hasnt killed many people in the US. Its barely gotten here and its been contained thus far. 

This its just the flu! Stuff really doesnt jibe with whats going on in China. 


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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I'm not ever going to put China on par with the US.  

Mueller probe couldn't get Trump.
IMpeachment couldn't get Trump.
in fact the economy thrived through those two hiccups.

So, now it's "The Coronavirus!"  The plague of the apocalypse!  We're all going to die.  Anything company dependent on anything coming out of China is in a death spiral.  The news media is reporting every new case as if it is the second coming and it's working.  

WE've known all along that the Liberals would see America destroyed before they give up power... Well, there it is, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, Coronavirus, ....

My advice is not to buy masks and hand sanitizer... rather, have your money ready when the world is once again safe from Coronavirus, and be ready to BUY!  Because stocks are going to be at all time lows, stores are going to be empty, and we'll see an economic boom like never before..

Alan

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## LowKey

Bah, death spiral. No one is that dependent on China. Except maybe Amazon Prime, and I'm not worried about them.
It's all about instilling panic as Alan said. There's a certain segment that seems to buy into all the media hype no matter what it is. 
Maybe this is the apocalypse a lot of the lurkers have been dreaming of. Get your BOBs and black rifles and get ready to eat tree bark and MREs.

I did notice some very strange holes in the shelves at the grocery store today.
No flour. Never seen that before.
Lots of bread missing (though there were a few snowflakes in the air while wandering into the store.)
Big holes in the water aisle too.

My mission tomorrow is toilet paper. Time to make a Costco trip up over the border. Cash. No sales tax.

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## Cliff Booth

China, Italy, and Iran are not involved in some crazy liberal conspiracy to oust Trump. This is potentially serious. 

When trying to quarantine the outbreak, the were basically just screening for fevers. We now know that was a terribly inefficient way to catch carriers and that they likely missed 60% of total cases. Where did those people go?  All over. And most medical facilities are not equipped to test for it. 

Doctors are asking patients calling in with flu like symptoms if theyve traveled internationally recently or been in contact with any such travelers, but thats about it.  


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## WolfVanZandt

Cliff, nothing from China is reliable. Period. The SARS epidemic was more dangerous than this and they bearly blinked an eye. Now they're losing there minds over a cold? I don't think so. If they're anything, John Hopkins isn't "misleading" - they're just not losing their minds over a cold. And, trying to oust Trump? You have /me/ seriously wrong there. I would think that the last thing they would want is to oust Trump.

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## Cliff Booth

> Cliff, nothing from China is reliable. Period. The SARS epidemic was more dangerous than this and they bearly blinked an eye. Now they're losing there minds over a cold? I don't think so. If they're anything, John Hopkins isn't "misleading" - they're just not losing their minds over a cold. And, trying to oust Trump? You have /me/ seriously wrong there. I would think that the last thing they would want is to oust Trump.


You mentioned Mayo. Theyve been preparing for this for weeks and one of their leaders have admitted this has the potential to be a disaster. I know people in China right now. The situation is extremely dire. Unbelievable amount of people confined to their homes. One meal a day and praying they can make that last. 


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## crashdive123

Hi Cliff Booth.  Since this is the topic that seems to concern you (as it should us all) and you are offering up some info on it, could you please go to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  I, as many other do, like to know more about who is offering advice and opinion.  Thanks.

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## Phaedrus

It bears watching for sure.  There's a vaccine already, it was delivered to the NIH a few days ago for testing.  I have no idea what the testing protocol is like nor how long it takes to enter the supply line (assuming it works).  It sounds like this virus isn't airborne; to become infected you need to contact the afflicted person and/or their mucus or bodily fluids.  Incidents of infection from surface contact seems low, too (eg using the keyboard of someone who's sick, etc).

Travel restrictions seem pointless AFAIK.  It's already established in most countries.  The incubation period seems to be as long as three weeks during which time the carrier may show no symptoms.  There's a test but apparently there are only a few thousand test kits in the whole of the USA so good luck with that.

Avoiding those already sick is a good policy but someone can show no symptoms so that's difficult.  The best bet seems to be to avoid contact with people as much as possible and wash your hands frequently and correctly.

I work as the Exec Chef of nonprofit in MT.  Our next program is in a couple weeks and all the participants are flying in from Virginia Beach.  We're watching the situation as it's entire families that go through our program.  If COVID19 quickly spreads I would anticipate us cancelling the next couple programs.

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## rebel

CDC said 12-18 months for the testing.

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## zedsdead

Just to put this hype into perspective:
The population of China is 1.6 billion people, the number of cases reported is plateauing, and the death rate is relatively low.
For 80,000 cases in China, only 0.005% of the population have had the virus.

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## JohnLeePettimore

I know a family that moved to China as doctor/missionaries. They are in Chengdu. In their apartment complex they are allowed to have one adult leave the complex (they aren't stuck in the apartment) every two days for critical items. The clinic he works at has been closed all of February (not sure what date it closed), but recently started having limited access for medicine refills, and mild emergencies. He hasn't worked since late January.

He doesn't sound panicked about it as a plague, but he hasn't worked, so he hasn't been paid. He mentions schools and businesses being closed, with rumors that they may re-open in mid-March.

I think (for whatever my opinion is worth), that our major problems are going to be economic. Just because your business, or job, doesn't directly deal with China, doesn't mean you won't be effected by the Chinese shut-down. If a manufacturer/assembler doesn't get it's Chinese parts, they won't be using any American ones either. TQMS-type facilities will really be hit hard. [Total Quality Management System - "just in time" supply chain - minimal inventory]

Real problems will be exacerbated by panic. I remember back in the 1970's there were a couple of shortages of some products (I forget what they were), and Johnny Carson made a joke about the real problem would be if there was a toilet paper shortage. That joke created a shortage, because some people weren't really listening (imagine that!), thought there was a shortage, and emptied the shelves of toilet paper. The "shortage" was perpetuated because people saw they empty shelves, then bought it all up whenever any was stocked.

History repeats itself.

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## WolfVanZandt

The usual rush on Walmart when a storm is predicted? Now it's because of the Corona virus. We're probably having more people die trying to get to ( and out of) Walmart then will ever die as a result of the virus. 

The only importance of what China is doing is why they're doing it. Like I said, the SARS epidemic was more dangerous and there was none of this "panic". I don't believe all the frenzied activity is about the virus.

This is not a pandemic and the answer is not to panic or to isolate anyone. Survival is done by cooperating, not by isolating. 

By the way, do you know where most of our paper surgical masks come from?

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## WolfVanZandt

Y'know, I'm getting pretty fed up with all these politicians rallying people, not to come together in a time of crisis, but to come over to their side because they're some kind of daddy that will protect us from some kind of monster that, frankly, is probably imaginary.

Home of the brave and free? We're the home of the frightened and locked in.

I don't need protection from the Corona virus. I need protection from the people running for office. The way things are going, I may soon need protection from citizens that think that I might be infected and from the police that are good to keep people indoors so they don't spread "this thing". Heck, if we're all quarantined on election day, we just won't have an election, will we?

"Where's our heads at?"

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## rebel

All those people that wanted to take a one way trip to Mars should step up for testing.

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## Cliff Booth

Im confused as to why you keep saying SARS is more dangerous. The data pretty clearly demonstrate that is not true. 


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## Cliff Booth

> Just to put this hype into perspective:
> The population of China is 1.6 billion people, the number of cases reported is plateauing, and the death rate is relatively low.
> For 80,000 cases in China, only 0.005% of the population have had the virus.


Italy is probably what we need to watch to see how this thing might play out over here.  No telling how accurate China's numbers are.  Also, they shot themselves in the foot by trying to squash any doctors warning them that something was up.

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## nell67

> Bah, death spiral. No one is that dependent on China. Except maybe Amazon Prime, and I'm not worried about them.
> It's all about instilling panic as Alan said. There's a certain segment that seems to buy into all the media hype no matter what it is. 
> Maybe this is the apocalypse a lot of the lurkers have been dreaming of. Get your BOBs and black rifles and get ready to eat tree bark and MREs.
> 
> I did notice some very strange holes in the shelves at the grocery store today.
> No flour. Never seen that before.
> Lots of bread missing (though there were a few snowflakes in the air while wandering into the store.)
> Big holes in the water aisle too.
> 
> My mission tomorrow is toilet paper. Time to make a Costco trip up over the border. Cash. No sales tax.


 The Walmart and Jay-C food store here (Kroger), were completely out of bleach. Not one single bottle of any bleach except the spray bottles and wipes. Said they had none in the stock room, and none coming one the next truck. Went in yesterday and they had a few bottles of off brand on the shelves, but everyone wanted Clorox.... The dollar store had tons of their label as did Dollar General.  In the labs I've worked in, they make their own disinfectant of 10:1 bleach solution. They don't buy Clorox, they use the cheapest bleach available. It works.

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## WolfVanZandt

Cliff, it was more deadly because, once you got it, you were more likely to die, and it spread well enough to be an issue. If you have a compromised immune system, you should be concerned about this virus, but otherwise, it's not a big deal.

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## JohnLeePettimore

> The Walmart and Jay-C food store here (Kroger), were completely out of bleach. Not one single bottle of any bleach except the spray bottles and wipes. Said they had none in the stock room, and none coming one the next truck. Went in yesterday and they had a few bottles of off brand on the shelves, but everyone wanted Clorox.... The dollar store had tons of their label as did Dollar General.  In the labs I've worked in, they make their own disinfectant of 10:1 bleach solution. They don't buy Clorox, they use the cheapest bleach available. It works.


EVERYONE knows that only name brand sodium hypochlorite solutions kill germs. Get with the program.

;o)

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## BENESSE

Exaggerated or not, it just goes to show how vulnerable we all are to other people's panic and misinformation in general.
The bottom line has always been: prepare for the worst before you really have to. Coronavirus is no different.

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## crashdive123

Another big takeaway for this is that we as a country are way too dependent on China.  Far too many essential items are manufactured there and seem to be our only source.  Just as individuals, we need to be much less dependent on others and more self sufficient.

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## WolfVanZandt

Crash, if we were the country (we, the people, that is) we probably would be.

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## Cliff Booth

> Cliff, it was more deadly because, once you got it, you were more likely to die, and it spread well enough to be an issue. If you have a compromised immune system, you should be concerned about this virus, but otherwise, it's not a big deal.


You are comparing one virus that ran its course over 15 years ago and has been studied extensively, to a brand new virus that is still spreading.  That's about like saying your car is the fastest because you are in the lead after 3 seconds, while the guy behind you is still accelerating.

The idea that it is only dangerous to compromised patients isn't really well-founded yet, either.  Most anything is going to be more dangerous to those that are already ill, but we don't really have enough information to say everyone else is safe.  

As far as SARS goes, you were way less likely to get that, as only 8000 or so people ever did.  We're at over 10 times that number right now.  That's after 2 months versus a 9 month run for SARS.  Additionally, the SARS data is complete.  All cases have run their course.  No new cases and everyone that got it is now recovered or dead.  Complete statistics.  This COVID-19 takes longer to start causing problems and is spreading rapidly.  Thus, the number of new cases is going up a lot faster than the number of people dropping dead.  The death rate is calculated by number of deaths divided by number of known cases.  So since the virus is actively spreading, the denominator is obviously going up more rapidly than the numerator.  But it doesn't make a lot of sense to look at someone that got diagnosed with COVID-19 fifteen minutes ago and count them in the "survivor" category.  So that 2% number could be a lot lower than the actual number of people that are going to die.  It's also possible that there are a ton of unreported cases also causing problems calculating the actual rate.

I'm not urging you to panic, overthrow the government, go live isolated in the woods, stockpile guns and ammo, or anything like that.  But I certainly wouldn't brush this off because someone says it's only 2% and the flu is worse or anything like that.

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## Dogwood

I'm not a M.D. or with the CDC so all this should be confirmed. And, new information, insight and continuing new developments are  contributing to a progressively better understanding. 

The CDC has publicly released those at highest risk of death are those with dysfunctional immune systems and those  with pre existing conditions - diabetes, cardiovascular disease, etc.   The CDC also offers how to reduce contraction risks of COVID-19 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ssessment.html

COVID -19 is but one virus in the corona virus 'family.'

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## rebel

DOD says...https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...489876%3famp=1

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Meanwhile, back on the reality ranch.....

CDC estimates that influenza was associated with more than 35.5 million illnesses, more than 16.5 million medical visits, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths during the 20182019 influenza season.(CDCwww.cdc.gov )


Alan

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## rebel

Another with some prep guides. Use it or dont. https://www.theorganicprepper.com/do...demic-30-days/

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

U.S. reports 9th coronavirus death... (WAPO)

Regular flu - 34,200 deaths
Coronavirus - 9 deaths

And that's with FREE flu shots....

I'm not really seeing the urgency...

But some people are.  I was in Harbor Freight to day getting an armload of junk (from China) and a guy comes in looking for respirators and masks.  The manager told him to go to Lowes or Home Depot... He didn't look like a painter...  He left in a hurry... 

I have a chronic cough, have had it all my life.  I cough to some exent about every minute.  Every time I'd cough today everyone else would turn and look at me...

I think I'll go to town again tomorrow... doesn't take much to entertain me...


Alan

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## crashdive123

> I have a chronic cough, have had it all my life.  I cough to some exent about every minute.  Every time I'd cough today everyone else would turn and look at me...
> 
> I think I'll go to town again tomorrow... doesn't take much to entertain me...
> 
> 
> Alan


If you find yourself in a long check-out line.........just cough and ask out loud that you wonder if you picked up the cough in China.  Bet it speeds up the check-out process.

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## Rick

You, sir, are sick. Oh, wait. I wonder if it's the virus? Naw. 

Numbers can be a bit misleading at this point. You have to consider the time spans involved. If we wait a year and look at the numbers they may look a lot different. H1N1 saw 20,000 hospitalized and 1000 deaths (rounded) in the first six months in 2009 before Obama declared an emergency. I'm glad Trump moved as quickly as he did. That may have a positive impact on the U.S. numbers and that translates to human suffering and lives.

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## rebel

Some numbers: http://endoftheamericandream.com/arc...r-than-the-flu

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## Cliff Booth

> U.S. reports 9th coronavirus death... (WAPO)
> 
> Regular flu - 34,200 deaths
> Coronavirus - 9 deaths
> 
> And that's with FREE flu shots....
> 
> I'm not really seeing the urgency...
> 
> ...


Two posts show the difference. 

65 cases and 9 deaths. 

Or. 

35.5 million cases and 34,000 deaths. 

If this thing spreads like it has the potential to do, it would be very bad. Chiba appears to have drastically slowed transmission with draconian measures, but it was exploding there for awhile.

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## Cliff Booth

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ok/4940378002/

Previous global mortality rate estimates for the coronavirus had been around 2%, and the latest number is not firm because testing continues to lag. It remains unclear how many people actually have been infected. Still, 3.4% mortality rate is worrisome, Tedros said.

So the death rate is about 75% higher than they initially thought.  That adds up to about 1 in 28.  And it's possible that number is still low.

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## WolfVanZandt

Cliff, I'm not comparing viruses. I'm comparing China's reaction to viruses.

And rates are very unreliable because....well, because rates are tools for mass manipulation.

I'm not suggested we blow it off. But I M suggesting we don't lose our minds or be lead around by the nose like a bull to slaughter.

We have much bigger problems. Hunger kills a lot more than the corona, and we could eliminate that by moving wealth away from the tiny number of people who have it all and use it to save people's lives.

The corona is a way to shift people's focus from real problems. I don't bait.

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## Cliff Booth

> Cliff, I'm not comparing viruses. I'm comparing China's reaction to viruses.
> 
> And rates are very unreliable because....well, because rates are tools for mass manipulation.
> 
> I'm not suggested we blow it off. But I M suggesting we don't lose our minds or be lead around by the nose like a bull to slaughter.
> 
> We have much bigger problems. Hunger kills a lot more than the corona, and we could eliminate that by moving wealth away from the tiny number of people who have it all and use it to save people's lives.
> 
> The corona is a way to shift people's focus from real problems. I don't bait.


Didnt really feel like we were on the cusp of billionaires having all their assets seized and distributed to the slums before this new virus broke loose and infected a bunch of Chinese. I doubt Jeff Bezos is breathing a big sigh of relief.

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## rebel

I was wondering about food production, processing, transportation and distribution IF it effects the chain of production. The windows are reliant on many factors. The disruption may not be noted for awhile but, they would come. Id like to see people more self reliant and supplies for more than a few days.

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## Rick

Private wealth isn't going to be seized. It might be taxed but then they will simply shelter those funds necessary to bring their wealth down below that threshold. I find it almost funny...almost...that folks always want to tax some else but never themselves. Seize someone's property but never theirs. Here are a couple of facts for you (you in the plural). 

Castro's net wealth at the time of his death: $800 million
Chavez's daugther's net weath: $2.6 billion
It's hard to calculate Stalin's net worth but it is thought is was about $7.5 trillion in today's dollars. 
Karl Marx lived on his friend Freidrich Engels until Marx secured his one and only job as a reporter for an English paper. He didn't speak English so he had Engels ghost write for him until he learned English. 

You gotta love those socialists.

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## Cliff Booth

> Private wealth isn't going to be seized. It might be taxed but then they will simply shelter those funds necessary to bring their wealth down below that threshold. I find it almost funny...almost...that folks always want to tax some else but never themselves. Seize someone's property but never theirs. Here are a couple of facts for you (you in the plural). 
> 
> Castro's net wealth at the time of his death: $800 million
> Chavez's daugther's net weath: $2.6 billion
> It's hard to calculate Stalin's net worth but it is thought is was about $7.5 trillion in today's dollars. 
> Karl Marx lived on his friend Freidrich Engels until Marx secured his one and only job as a reporter for an English paper. He didn't speak English so he had Engels ghost write for him until he learned English. 
> 
> You gotta love those socialists.


It seems like I read somewhere that if we seized 100% of assets from all our countrys billionaires it would fund the country for like 2 months or something minuscule like that.

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## Rick

The country earns a little less than 4 trillion a year.

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## WolfVanZandt

Cliff, I'm sure a billionaire wrote that. It wasn't the point though. What I said is that we're so focused on this virus when hunger kills a lot more people and we can do something about that. I'm talking about priorities.

This virus is not a danger to most of the people on this forum. If we want to do something about the virus, we could always identify people at risk and go grocery shopping for them so they don't have to expose themselves any more than necessary.

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## Cliff Booth

> Cliff, I'm sure a billionaire wrote that. It wasn't the point though. What I said is that we're so focused on this virus when hunger kills a lot more people and we can do something about that. I'm talking about priorities.
> 
> This virus is not a danger to most of the people on this forum. If we want to do something about the virus, we could always identify people at risk and go grocery shopping for them so they don't have to expose themselves any more than necessary.


Not a danger is a gross overstatement. 


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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Hey, Never fear! Jim Baker (remember him?)  invented a "Silver Solution" that kills Corona Virus!!!!  We're  all saved, now drink the Koolaide..... (That was Jim Jones).


Alan

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## Rick

I had a couple of buddies that spotted a possum in the middle of the road one night. It was blinded by the truck's headlights and they decided it would be a great idea to pick up that possum by the tail. So they snuck down the edge of the road and one of them grabbed it by the tail. Ain't nothin' dangerous until it is. You never want a buddy to fling a possum at you. Even if he is trying to get rid of it. This virus might be a possum and we don't know it yet.

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## Rick

I guess the other thing that sort of skews the numbers are those folks that do get sick but never call their doctor or go to the hospital. They just stay home and get better. Just like anyone else with the "flu". We'll never know how many of those there are but that definitely raises the base and lowers the mortality rate. All we are seeing right now are those numbers that are reported. Not dismissing anything just trying to put it in perspective.

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## rebel

> I guess the other thing that sort of skews the numbers are those folks that do get sick but never call their doctor or go to the hospital. They just stay home and get better. Just like anyone else with the "flu". We'll never know how many of those there are but that definitely raises the base and lowers the mortality rate. All we are seeing right now are those numbers that are reported. Not dismissing anything just trying to put it in perspective.


Isnt that what the gov. is saying to do? To self quarantine and not spread the virus. Makes sense to not take it to the hospital and compromise those who are vulnerable or those that provide care. Get your supplies and stay home.

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## BushCraftPilot

It is kind of screwing up politics

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## WolfVanZandt

Rick, you're right, and things like that add to the lack of urgency in websites like the John Hopkins one. You're also right about the possum...I woulda been short a "friend"

But what you said is true of all viruses, including the flu. One of the characteristics of viruses, some more than others, is that they mutate. They can mutate into a stronger or weaker form. Evolution would favor a moderate form that spreads (reproduces) better but doesn't kill all the hosts.

But, as I've said before, the key to surviving anything but an extinction level event is to maintain general body health. The human body is equipped to deal with most assaults from the outside if it's in good working order.

And, no, Cliff, I don't believe I'm overstating the case at all. I noticed that you're in a health profession. I am retired after 20 years in a health profession and before that I survived 10 years of one of the most dangerous professions there is...college student, and another 10 years working through college. Not only am I well versed in human physiology, pharmacy, viruses and such, but I'm also well versed in my major of social psychology, plus the politics of medical industries, cognitive biases, and mass manipulation.

I've recommended a level head and non-isolationism. You've been all scarey and stuff but I haven't seen much about how too approach this thing. What are your suggestions, there?

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## BushCraftPilot

But the more you worry, the more likely you'll catch it. It isn't curable, being a virus, but antibiotics and a vax are being researched.

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## WolfVanZandt

Rebel, you are so right. Government definitely wants you to stay inside. Especially stay away from those crowded polls where you might vote against the partys' favorites in the primaries. Wow! If, say, Sanders beat Biden in the popular vote, they'd have to figure out some kind of complication to turn the election.

Ya'llvwant to survive? Keep the whole picture in view.

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## Rick

Antibiotics don't work on viruses. Anti-viruls do but not antibiotics.

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## rebel

Stay home with your supplies or a stay at the econo-lodge with no supplies.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/ne...antine-village

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## WolfVanZandt

Absolutely, Rick. And the best antiviral (and an effective one) is the body's own defenses.

Rebel, those are not the only options. For me, the better option is for neighbors to help each other out. It may well be airborne so, if you stay at home with your supplies, you may catch it anyway, and your inactivity will make it more probable. If you don't catch it, join others in fighting it.

Your best defense is /public/ health.

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## WolfVanZandt

By the way, by all means read what the Mayo clinic has to say. Especially their recommendations.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/faq-20478727

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## rebel

> Absolutely, Rick. And the best antiviral (and an effective one) is the body's own defenses.
> 
> Rebel, those are not the only options. For me, the better option is for neighbors to help each other out. It may well be airborne so, if you stay at home with your supplies, you may catch it anyway, and your inactivity will make it more probable. If you don't catch it, join others in fighting it.
> 
> Your best defense is /public/ health.


Lol. I didnt say be an isolationist. Ive got elder care and the unprepared family and neighbors. Sayin get ready as best you can.

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## WolfVanZandt

What I'm saying and also what the Mayo clinic and John Hopkins is saying is prepare for the corona virus just like you would prepare for a cold. All this running around buying up Clorox is anti-survival, anti-prepping. What you need is what you should already have. You have what you need in case you catch a cold, don't you? That's what you need to prep for the corona virus.

And what I'm also saying is that what marketers, politicians, and big name business people want is for you to lose your marbles.

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## LowKey

This is why the stores were out of bleach: 
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...d-coronavirus/
Anyone stupid enough to drink bleach doesn't need the corona virus. They're doing alright at dyin' all by themselves.

Cliff, were you sent here to try to rile things up? No one seems to be biting.

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## Cliff Booth

> Rick, you're right, and things like that add to the lack of urgency in websites like the John Hopkins one. You're also right about the possum...I woulda been short a "friend"
> 
> But what you said is true of all viruses, including the flu. One of the characteristics of viruses, some more than others, is that they mutate. They can mutate into a stronger or weaker form. Evolution would favor a moderate form that spreads (reproduces) better but doesn't kill all the hosts.
> 
> But, as I've said before, the key to surviving anything but an extinction level event is to maintain general body health. The human body is equipped to deal with most assaults from the outside if it's in good working order.
> 
> And, no, Cliff, I don't believe I'm overstating the case at all. I noticed that you're in a health profession. I am retired after 20 years in a health profession and before that I survived 10 years of one of the most dangerous professions there is...college student, and another 10 years working through college. Not only am I well versed in human physiology, pharmacy, viruses and such, but I'm also well versed in my major of social psychology, plus the politics of medical industries, cognitive biases, and mass manipulation.
> 
> I've recommended a level head and non-isolationism. You've been all scarey and stuff but I haven't seen much about how too approach this thing. What are your suggestions, there?


I would recommend watching the situation very carefully at this point. I would strongly caution against calling it no big deal before we know more about it. Id keep in mind this thing was growing at an overwhelming rate before China got really serious about it. 

Id avoid unnecessary travel, especially internationally. 

Id be nervous if I had kids in daycare or elderly relatives in nursing homes if I lived in an area where the virus had been identified. 


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## WolfVanZandt

Last two paragraphs make sense.

But watch the situation? How are we supposed to do that? Glue ourselves to a machine that can't get the facts straight in the first place? 

I will call it no big deal as long as the medical experts (in my case, John Hopkins and Mayo - hmmm, now I'm hungry) call it no big deal.

The flu grows at an overwhelming rate every year. So does the cold. Rate of spread doesn't impress me terribly. And neither does hype.

And young and elderly isn't the issue. Poor health, and specifically poor immunity is the issue. 

And one thing I'm going to do about it is wash dishes and hike Waterton Canyon with a friend....oh, and eat fish.

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## Fixit

I had laugh this morning. A doctor's site call a radio station in Nashville and said " that her husband said that it was no big deal but that she needed to go to the store and stock up the pantry because with a case I  Franklin people would panic and there wouldn't be anything t left in the store . "

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## Cliff Booth

> Last two paragraphs make sense.
> 
> But watch the situation? How are we supposed to do that? Glue ourselves to a machine that can't get the facts straight in the first place? 
> 
> I will call it no big deal as long as the medical experts (in my case, John Hopkins and Mayo - hmmm, now I'm hungry) call it no big deal.
> 
> The flu grows at an overwhelming rate every year. So does the cold. Rate of spread doesn't impress me terribly. And neither does hype.
> 
> And young and elderly isn't the issue. Poor health, and specifically poor immunity is the issue. 
> ...


Hopkins and Mayo are basically saying exactly what I just said. They are absolutely not saying this is no big deal and dont worry about it. 


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## rebel

Say what?

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index...powers#comment

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## Rick

So, anyone want to buy a Pa National Guard uniform? Slightly used only on week-ends. Going cheap.

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## Cliff Booth

Looking at Italy, it appears around 10% of folks with the virus require hospitalization. Most of those need respirators to help them breathe. Anyone treating them would need an N95 mask. Preferably, that mask would be changed multiple times per day to avoid cross contamination, although they can technically be used for around 8 hours. 

Weve got about 1 million or so hospital beds in the entire country. Id say over half are occupied at any given time. So lets say weve got 500,000.  And those are regular beds, not ICU beds or quarantine units, so less than ideal situation. So your risk of the other people in the hospital contracting it is going to be pretty high and these are mostly the people that you worry the most when they get it. Im also unsure what the number of respirators looks like. Hospital beds may not do a whole lot of good if we have no means to assist breathing. 

Growth models seem to indicate the number of cases doubles about every week. Its followed that pattern pretty closely everywhere except for post lockdown China. Weve got 375 cases now. So only 30-40 hospital beds affected at the moment. Very manageable. In 8 weeks youd have more like 10,000 hospitalized. Still doable. 12 weeks out its more like 150,000 beds, which would be a tremendous strain. And obviously it gets worse from there. Of course, this is all based on the rate of growth not changing and the current level of virulence remaining the same. But that kind of volume would probably lead to a lot of unrelated deaths from people just not having the same access to care. 


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## LowKey

If you're worried about hospital beds, catch it early is all I can offer.

Try to by hand sanitizer. LOL.
Amazon is price gouging at nearly $20 per 8oz bottle.
I noticed today all gone in both Walmart and Walgreens.
Even the alcohol prep pads for injections and bottles of isopropyl alcohol are all gone.

This too shall pass.
Or maybe it's Mother Nature's way of saying there are too many of you.
<shrug>

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Lord help us if we ever have a real crisis....



Alan

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## Rick

I had a real crisis once. I was on a hot date in the country and broke a fan belt. That wasn't the crisis. I had to call my dad to come get me. THAT was the crisis. 

"What were you doing way out there...never mind. Don't tell me." 
"I got lost." 
Side ways glance followed by head shake. 

That's also the moment I learned to carry a spare fan belt and other ancillary stuff for the car.

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## Fixit

I kept looking at a!l the areas going in to lockdown a d can't help but thing about the looking crisis i  the maturity wards in 9 months.

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, now it's serious. Colorado is quarantining people. That wouldn't be so bad if they strictly protected people's jobs but this is an at-will state. People are going to be fired for being off the job for two weeks and all that has to happen is that someone says that you were exposed. You don't have to be sick to be quarantined.

Can you say "police state?"

Cliff, the WHO rated Italy's health care as second best in the world. Every citizen gets health care there. If you sneeze, you can go into the hospital and they'll do everything possible to get you to stop sneezing. Here, we have a thousand homeless and the police say, "move along." They tell you you have to have health insurance but when you buy a policy that you can't afford and you get sick, you go to the hospital and pay out of pocket for the rest of your life because the expensive insurance doesn't pay on claims. Or you get an expensive lawyer if, per chance, you can afford one.

We're not Italy.

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## Cliff Booth

That WHO ranking was actually on healthcare efficiency, not necessarily who is best. Affordability was a big factor there. 

The economically challenged among us are getting care when they are in a life threatening crisis and that isnt changing anytime soon. 


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## WolfVanZandt

Sometimes, an economically challenged person can't wait for Medicaid to tunnel through all the red tape to get papers in order. People in a large part of the world get health care /when they need it/.

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## Cliff Booth

> Sometimes, an economically challenged person can't wait for Medicaid to tunnel through all the red tape to get papers in order. People in a large part of the world get health care /when they need it/.


You come to the ER with difficulty breathing you are getting help. 

People in a large part of the world get their MRIs months after they needed it. 


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## WolfVanZandt

Thats what you see on the Internet, but it's not what the people from other countries say, nor is it what the WHO says.

Also, we used to fight like crazy to help our disabled people get disability. I have a close friend that can't work and, incidentally, it's taking forever for him to get disability. In other countries, if you're disabled, you just start drawing disability.

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## Cliff Booth

> Thats what you see on the Internet, but it's not what the people from other countries say, nor is it what the WHO says.
> 
> Also, we used to fight like crazy to help our disabled people get disability. I have a close friend that can't work and, incidentally, it's taking forever for him to get disability. In other countries, if you're disabled, you just start drawing disability.


You should help him relocate to Italy. 

We have bazillions of people on disability a pretty big portion of which are hardly incapable of working. Hell get it eventually. 

And yes, single payer systems have a whole new set of issues and access to timely tests or procedures that arent deemed immediately necessary is a problem. We will be heading that direction soon enough and youll get to experience how well a government runs something as complex as healthcare. Its going to be a lot harder than directing an agency whose sole objective is to put letters and packages in mailboxes. 

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I lived long enough to be on Medicare.  I'm set ..... right?

I'm also glad I can't get the Coronavirus from hearing about it constantly.... I seldom watch the national news on one of the fake news stations, but I did today.  If they said "Coronavirus" once they said it a thousand times, mostly preceded by the comment that Trump is not doing enough to stop it....


Alan

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## rebel

Its going to spread. Nobody can stop it. Blaming is short-sighted and political.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Yes, it's going to spread, AND, we will surely get a case by case report from the mainstream news media.

If you're old and have health problems or have a compromised immune system then you'll likely get it and could probably die from it!  But whatever you do take all precautions against getting the REAL flu, because that has a really good chance of punching your dance card.

Alan

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## Cliff Booth

> I lived long enough to be on Medicare.  I'm set ..... right?
> 
> I'm also glad I can't get the Coronavirus from hearing about it constantly.... I seldom watch the national news on one of the fake news stations, but I did today.  If they said "Coronavirus" once they said it a thousand times, mostly preceded by the comment that Trump is not doing enough to stop it....
> 
> 
> Alan


Im not sure anything he did would have mattered too much. Maybe some ways he could have slowed it down, but infected people were already out of Wuhan and all over the place before the rest of the world really knew how serious it was there. Pretty much inevitable at that point. Well ride it out and hopefully the damage is minimal and the economy isnt too disrupted. Also, hopefully this doesnt frequently mutate and become some constantly circulating illness with a fairly high death rate. 


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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

From the article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51674743

"Scientists' estimate of the death rate is lower because not all cases are reported."
"But it depends on a range of factors: your age, sex and general health and the health system you are in."
"Most cases of most viruses will go uncounted because people tend not to visit the doctor with mild symptoms."
"...deaths were at least five times more common among people with diabetes, high blood pressure or heart or breathing problems.
          There was even a slightly higher number of deaths among men compared to women."
"The basic advice from the WHO is that you can protect yourself from all respiratory viruses by washing your hands, avoiding people who are coughing and sneezing and trying not to touch your eyes, nose and mouth."

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

So, after all the hype and hoopla, the advice from WHO is to do the things that keep you from catching ANY respiratory virus.  They don't say to buy thousands of dollars worth of alcohol, baby wipes, hand sanitizer, masks or ANYTHING for that matter.  Just wash your hands, don't bite your finger nails, pick your nose or poke yourself in the eye(s).... 

But, on the News at 10, they will say Coronavirus 1200 times because it sounds cool and perhaps the death toll may have increased by 1.....  

Do I want to catch this thing? NO! Not any more or less than I want to catch any illness.  I don't hold the rail on stairs, escalators or elevators.  I don't touch anything in a public restroom.  I stay away from sick people (and people in general). I take my vitamins and dietary supplements (some of them are anti-viral and immune system enhancers... at least that's what they say on the bottle).  

So, even though I'm in all three high risk groups on the chart, chances are Ed MacMahon and the Prize Patrol will show up at my house twice in one week before I catch the Coronavirus..... Even though Ed is dead...


Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

Medicaid has been good here in Denver. They make frequent mistakes but they urnestly try to fix them. The problem is that, if you have a medical emergency while they're making a mistake you might be dead running around trying to fix it. The red tape is serious.

It's red tape other countries don't seem to have, do why are there so many problems in our wonderful system that others seem to have beaten.

By the way, if you really want to take the "if you're not happy with the way things are here, you should go elsewhere" tact I'll be glad to 'ressle with you over that.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

From Fox News:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ins...p-thinks-of-me


"The state has been the hardest hit by the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S., with at least 70 confirmed infections and 11 dead. Most of those who died were residents of Life Care Center, a nursing home in Kirkland, a suburb east of Seattle. Researchers say the virus may have been circulating undetected for weeks."


So, it got into a nursing home, remained undetected for weeks, and SOME, not all, of the old and infirm died....

That's hardly indicative of a pandemic of Black Death proportions like the Media is trying to hype up.

I was talking to a woman the other day, and she believed it was a biological weapons attack by China... So, people will believe anything except logic and reason...



Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Local news just reported that stores are running out of ......... soap.

This is getting comically ridiculous.

Meanwhile the CDC reports that 20,000 Americans have died from the Flu... 136 Children.  More children have died of the flu than nursing home residents have died in total from Coronavirus.  Talk about barking up the wrong tree...

But Steve Hilton...

https://www.foxnews.com/media/steve-...on-coronavirus


Steve Hilton spent much of his opening monologue Sunday slamming Democrats and the media, saying they've been stoking the flames of coronavirus panic with the country at risk of a "catastrophic overreaction."

"Of course, no one should minimize it, and we must do all we can to stop preventable deaths -- but it seems to me that weve got a bunch of people in leadership positions in the media and business and Congress who are running around maximizing coronavirus without a thought for the harm they may be causing," Hilton said on "The Next Revolution."

"The virus is here. It's going to spread. The vast majority of people who get it won't even know. As Dr. [Anthony] Fauci said today, we know who is at risk: the elderly and those with underlying conditions. For God's sake, let's put our efforts into protecting them."

"Stop this wild, reckless overreaction based on panic, not science."

 "This is yet another example of an arrogant ruling elite with no understanding of, or empathy for, how precarious the lives of the poorest Americans are.

"That's what [Trump economic adviser] Larry Kudlow is doing. They are 100 percent right -- we don't need panic, we need to be positive and practical."


Thanks for the level head Steve.

Alan

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## nell67

Cases have know shown up in Ky and Indiana. One is Louisville is twenty minutes away from me, and there are three surrounding the Indianapolis area about 90 minutes from me, but closer to where Rick is from. 

 Bleach is back on the store shelves here or was, but now that the virus is proven so close maybe short lived, and hand sanitizer also is in short supply. I bet I had twenty emails yesterday on how to make your own hand sanitizer.

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## Rick

Both the cases in Indy are in self quarantine. 

According to that chart above, if I get this thing when I check in to the hospital I'm going to tell them I'm 10-19 with no underlying health conditions and female. I should be over in a day or two.

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## WolfVanZandt

Since this is a survival forum, let me make an admission...I'm a dirty person. I rarely wash my hands. I do wash then when I handle clean dishes and when I'm cooking for others. I don't mind dirt in my food when I'm camping. I enter nature with impunity defying rain, storm, mud, and animal byproducts (like ham. I love ham!) And I clean up messes without gloves (and I used to work at a camp for disabled children and adults...some of the messes I've cleaned up). I'll sleep anywhere...in a tub, under a bush, under a bridge. I'm an animal.

There's this thing about survival, though. If you aren't exposed to something, you don't develop defenses against it.

As dirty as I am. If I catch almost anything, I'm over it in three days. Injuries...three days. I had a broken arm once it took a week to heal. I've had two "novel viruses" it took five (whoa! Five!) days to get over.

Part of that is my natural immunity. My Neanderthal traits will kill off any virus...then they come after me. Fair trade. But a large part is that I avoid nothing and appreciate everything. Attitude is Big. I will live until I die and I appreciate (in the sense of art appreciation) everything in between.

Cliff, you sound like a very fearful person, or someone who wants everyone else to be fearful, or both. I hope you're actually reading other threads on this forum. You may end up in the woods one day.

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## Rick

Not me. I wash everything. Twice. Sometimes three times. If it's coming for me I'm not going down without a fight. That germ will have to wade through the soapsuds to get me. It will have to swim through the alcohol to get me. It will have to fly through aerial disinfectants to get me. It will have to crawl through floor sanitizers to get me. There's a sign outside my house that says. Germ! Abandon all hope ye who enter here. And I mean it. I'm a modern man that has adopted modern methods including germ warfare. (see what I did there?)

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## BENESSE

Fear can be constructive, panic never is. Be aware of the difference.
You've got nothing to loose by being vigorously pro-active in doing everything you can in order to minimize coming down with it. Don't get too cocky over your strong immune system (so far) or the fact you weathered other viruses and infections with ease--there are a lot of unknowns about COVID-19 and its unpredictability ought to give everyone a healthy dose of fear. 

As with any disease, catching it early is better than late. Watch and see isn't always smart--we've all either experienced that ourselves or had a loved one go through it. Wouldn't you rather hear _"it's nothing serious"_ rather than _"if only you've gotten here sooner"_?  

You don't know what you don't know, so why take chances?

----------


## BENESSE

> Not me. I wash everything. Twice. Sometimes three times. If it's coming for me I'm not going down without a fight. That germ will have to wade through the soapsuds to get me. It will have to swim through the alcohol to get me. It will have to fly through aerial disinfectants to get me. It will have to crawl through floor sanitizers to get me. There's a sign outside my house that says. Germ! Abandon all hope ye who enter here. And I mean it. I'm a modern man that has adopted modern methods including germ warfare. (see what I did there?)


 :clap: 

+1. Rick..

----------


## crashdive123

I believe that the conversations in this topic have been civil.  Hopefully they will remain so.  Regardless of your personal level of concern regarding the Corona Virus (or any other potential illness), there is nothing wrong with trying to minimize your risks.  Letting others know of the potential risks is a positive thing IMO.  Weaponizing an illness (hasn't happened here) to create fear or gain profit is wrong.  By profit I mean scaring people into doing something for your gain be it monetary or political.

----------


## WolfVanZandt

There have been movements to outlaw things like extreme sports (like my favorite - freestyle rock climbing) and, of course what's happened to playgrounds in the last 50 years or so.

My position is to not avoid risks but to approach them rationally. Learning happens when you take risks and that's how we adapt to situations.

People who never expose themselves to novel situation don't aren't prepared when the situation happens to them.

I hope you've read the research (or, at least reports based on them) that trace these "novel pathogens" to our "antiseptic culture". We're bombarded with antiseptics and antibodies in our foods, handwash, cleaners - and irresponsible prescribing by doctors who just want to please their paying patients to the point that competing pathogens are eliminated so the more Hardy, more dangerous pathogens get to grow and evolve.

The plagues during the middle ages almost wiped us out because of unregulated filth. We're going to finish the job by being too clean.

Aristotle was big on the middle road. He had a lot of things wrong, but I think he had this one right. 

Too much risk aversion is deadly.

Survival is knowing how to build a knife, start a fire, or purify water. The sciences and technologies make up 1/5 of your local library. The rest is important, too. And knowledge isn't enough either. If you wait for a crisis to be ready for it, you won't survive. Ability to govern self and maintanence of an adaptible body are also important as is the ability to get away from our biases long enough to assess real reality.

----------


## rebel

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index...ry-coronavirus

Interesting times

----------


## WolfVanZandt

Heh. To quote my favorite infamous psychologist, "How's that working for them." Wait for it....

----------


## Cliff Booth

> Since this is a survival forum, let me make an admission...I'm a dirty person. I rarely wash my hands. I do wash then when I handle clean dishes and when I'm cooking for others. I don't mind dirt in my food when I'm camping. I enter nature with impunity defying rain, storm, mud, and animal byproducts (like ham. I love ham!) And I clean up messes without gloves (and I used to work at a camp for disabled children and adults...some of the messes I've cleaned up). I'll sleep anywhere...in a tub, under a bush, under a bridge. I'm an animal.
> 
> There's this thing about survival, though. If you aren't exposed to something, you don't develop defenses against it.
> 
> As dirty as I am. If I catch almost anything, I'm over it in three days. Injuries...three days. I had a broken arm once it took a week to heal. I've had two "novel viruses" it took five (whoa! Five!) days to get over.
> 
> Part of that is my natural immunity. My Neanderthal traits will kill off any virus...then they come after me. Fair trade. But a large part is that I avoid nothing and appreciate everything. Attitude is Big. I will live until I die and I appreciate (in the sense of art appreciation) everything in between.
> 
> Cliff, you sound like a very fearful person, or someone who wants everyone else to be fearful, or both. I hope you're actually reading other threads on this forum. You may end up in the woods one day.


You seem kind of all over the place. On the one hand Im really fearful. On the other, everything is some crazy conspiracy against you. Did you read the last paragraph you wrote?  Are you understanding how the first sentence and the next two are insanely contradictory?  

Good luck to you man. You may be right and it may end up being no big deal here.  Im not sure random anecdotes and self-identified traits from an inferior hominid are going to do much for you. 


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## Cliff Booth

> Heh. To quote my favorite infamous psychologist, "How's that working for them." Wait for it....


The quarantine in China has effectively stopped the disease in its tracks. 


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## WolfVanZandt

Aye. It's contradictory. I'm a psychologist so conflicted people don't surprise me.

According to a lot of anthropologist, Neanderthal wasn't necessarily inferior. But the traits that modern hominids carry from Neanderthal most certainly don't imply inferiority.

But, fact is, I think they'll, (the anecdotes and such) will serve me pretty well around people that know what I'm talking about.

----------


## Cliff Booth

> Aye. It's contradictory. I'm a psychologist so conflicted people don't surprise me.
> 
> According to a lot of anthropologist, Neanderthal wasn't necessarily inferior. But the traits that modern hominids carry from Neanderthal most certainly don't imply inferiority.
> 
> But, fact is, I think they'll, (the anecdotes and such) will serve me pretty well around people that know what I'm talking about.


Most anthropologists are working with the Freemasons to keep you from voting.  


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## WolfVanZandt

Nah. But if you want to bust myths about Neanderthal, and you seem to need that, they're the ones you go to.

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## Cliff Booth

> Nah. But if you want to bust myths about Neanderthal, and you seem to need that, they're the ones you go to.


Well you are in luck. Youve found one. Anything else youd like to know?


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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Both the cases in Indy are in self quarantine. 
> 
> According to that chart above, if I get this thing when I check in to the hospital I'm going to tell them I'm 10-19 with no underlying health conditions and female. I should be over in a day or two.


You don't even have to get it really.  All you have to do is self-identify as your description and that should take care of it.  

Alan

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## Cliff Booth

> You don't even have to get it really.  All you have to do is self-identify as your description and that should take care of it.  
> 
> Alan


Fortunately I identify as Batman. Bats cant get this thing, right?


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## WolfVanZandt

Well, since you seem to think that  anthropologists are in league with the Masons, I don't think I want to ask you anything.

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## Cliff Booth

> Well, since you seem to think that  anthropologists are in league with the Masons, I don't think I want to ask you anything.


Thats just the kind of thinking that results in you giving up all your rights. Open your eyes. 


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## WolfVanZandt

And, by the way, we're off topic. I'm back on.

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## Cliff Booth

> And, by the way, we're off topic. I'm back on.


I thought we already resolved the matter. The worlds leading epidemiologists are idiots and feces-caked hands and Neanderthal traits will render this virus powerless. 


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## crashdive123

Careful fellas.  You are starting to head down a path that will lead you to a dead end.  Get back on the main road.

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## Cliff Booth

In more interesting news, a CDC rep recently said you should be ready to bunker down and stay home if you are over 60. 

US Stare department has advised against cruises. Has to suck for the college kids about to have spring break. 


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## BENESSE

> In more interesting news, a CDC rep recently said you should be ready to bunker down and stay home if you are over 60. 
> 
> US Stare department has advised against cruises. *Has to suck for the college kids about to have spring break.* 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is not going to deter them. Do you remember being that age? Why, you're invincible. :Cool:

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## kyratshooter

I remember spring break in college.

There is no way carona virus could live through all of that!

The generous application of alcohol would kill it.

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## kyratshooter

But on a different note, this morning the nation of Italy woke to find the entire realm under quarantine.  Not a city or region, the entire nation.

No travel without proper documents, no gatherings of any kind, the Vatican is closed, sporting events canceled, all schools and universities closed, cafes and bars closed at 6pm, only essential workers still moving about.

Oddly they are still allowing shopping as long as the customers stay 1 meter separated.  Lot of good that will do when a cough or sneeze spreads the virus 5 meters.

People over 60 have been recommended to stay INSIDE for the next three weeks.

Now remember that Italy has a historical precedence for this.  In the 1300s the Black Death entered Europe through Italian ports.  They don't want a repeat of that scenerio.  After it got lose in Europe it swept through, then mutated and swept through again until 1/3 of the population was gone.  After that it lay dormant to again mutate and pop up every few decades for the next 500 years.  We actually lose more people to the Bubonic plague each year than the carona virus has taken in the U.S, so far.  It thrives on the west coast and the western desert, imagine that.

The question is, are we as "wilderness survivors" prepared for the inevitable "bug in" that goes totally against the ninja boy scout code of the "bugout bag and an AK/AR" survivalist?

I am a member of several survival forums located outside our nation.  Some of them have been going for many years.  Suddenly I have discovered that these proponents of self sustained living, homesteading and extreme woodcraft do not have enough supplies to sustain themselves for 3 weeks, TP to last a week, no water other than a bucket under the drain pipe, very little OTC medication and like everyone else they are out looting the shelves for milk, bread and eggs while wearing a paint mask.  Some of them have even owned up to living in apartment blocks in major urban areas rather than the quaint rural cottages they have shown on their posts and websites. 

Are you really ready for a 3-6 week bug in?  

Guess I better run to the store, I am down to 8 dozen eggs!

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## WolfVanZandt

And I'm 67. I'll be in Bluffs Park soon. Just did a 13 mile hike in Waterton Canyon.

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## WolfVanZandt

Kyrat. Aye, we have the plague out here and I haven't stayed in for that either.

I guess if they quarantine everyone then employers will need their workers back when it's done, if they survive.

This new cold going around isn't our worst enemy. It's the people "protecting us" from it.

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## Fixit

3weeks ? I could do 3 years . Now granted there would be some food fatigue toward the end.

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, according to the rule of four, a healthy person should be able to last 4weeks. That's a healthy person.

I would say "family and friends" but as soon as they bring you food, they're quarantined.

Okay, here's the score. You catch a cold. You're indoors for a week. You spread it around some because  you were contagious before you even knew you had it. A few people who it's actually a danger to catches it. In the best of world's, they are nursed back to health (probably not here because everybody is too busy looking out for number one, so they die).

The government's plan - even if you're not sick, even if you're suspected of being around it, you're quarantined for two weeks. Good chance you lose your job. Around here with cost of living so high, you might end up on the street. If you have caught it, suddenly you're in a high risk group that you would not have been in normally. That scenario could be anyone, not just the few in a high risk group.

The plague was deadly for two big reasons (we have it here and people are not dropping like flies). First, raw sewage ran in the streets. Cholera was also a plague that killed a lot of people. The other thing is that the church, during the middle ages, thought that bathing was a sign of vanity and encouraged the masses to not bathe. Sanitation was not good back then. The church wasn't the government, but it might as well have been and it was no longer much into nursing the body.

To reiterate, government leaders and health organizations that don't know what the heck they're doing is far more dangerous than the Corona virus. They don't listen to what the people that actually do know what they're doing are saying. Did either Mayo or John Hopkins say anything about enforced quarantine? Is there any research out that recommends enforced quarantine?

Fixit, if you get locked in for 3 weeks and happen to come down with something really serious (not this cold), are you going to be able to nurse yourself back to health. Are you even going to be able to get out of bed?

The old saw for getting over a virus is still appropriate. Drink lots of (clean) water to stay hydrated, take something to control fever, (if you have a good doctor that won't just load you up on worthless antibiotics, call him - he'll tell you to get plenty of rest), and I'll add, eat a well balanced diet - whether you feel like it or not.

3 week quarantines is not a life saving measure.

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## madmax

I'm way to physically compromised to bug out on foot or bike.  So bug in it is.  We stocked up on a few things we have neglected to rotate but it wasn't up or Purell lol.  It is funny how Italy has shut down and still people are, "Ho hum."  It cant happen here.  BTW.  Everybody knows you can get reinforced.  Right?

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## Cliff Booth

> Just to put this hype into perspective:
> The population of China is 1.6 billion people, the number of cases reported is plateauing, and the death rate is relatively low.
> For 80,000 cases in China, only 0.005% of the population have had the virus.





> Well, according to the rule of four, a healthy person should be able to last 4weeks. That's a healthy person.
> 
> I would say "family and friends" but as soon as they bring you food, they're quarantined.
> 
> Okay, here's the score. You catch a cold. You're indoors for a week. You spread it around some because  you were contagious before you even knew you had it. A few people who it's actually a danger to catches it. In the best of world's, they are nursed back to health (probably not here because everybody is too busy looking out for number one, so they die).
> 
> The government's plan - even if you're not sick, even if you're suspected of being around it, you're quarantined for two weeks. Good chance you lose your job. Around here with cost of living so high, you might end up on the street. If you have caught it, suddenly you're in a high risk group that you would not have been in normally. That scenario could be anyone, not just the few in a high risk group.
> 
> The plague was deadly for two big reasons (we have it here and people are not dropping like flies). First, raw sewage ran in the streets. Cholera was also a plague that killed a lot of people. The other thing is that the church, during the middle ages, thought that bathing was a sign of vanity and encouraged the masses to not bathe. Sanitation was not good back then. The church wasn't the government, but it might as well have been and it was no longer much into nursing the body.
> ...


Johns Hopkins banned fans from attending their basketball tourney.  China is the only country to have slowed the rate of growth of the virus to date.  They did it via quarantine.  

The virus spreads from person to person.  Thus, keeping it from spreading involves limiting person to person contact.  There's no rat flea to take out.  Also, we have had a definitive treatment for the Bubonic Plague for years now, so you can't really compare it to something that emerged 10 weeks ago that we are still trying to understand.

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## WolfVanZandt

I didn't see anything on the Internet. Do you mean you can have supplied brought to you?

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## Cliff Booth

Harvard, Columbia, Vanderbilt, Princeton, and Stanford all cancelling classes.  Harvard has called off classes until September.

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## Cliff Booth

> I didn't see anything on the Internet. Do you mean you can have supplied brought to you?


I believe he meant to type "reinfected".

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## Rick

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

I still remember the 1300s. If anyone gets within 5 meters of me they get a fat lip. I say quarantine the whole country. That should cut down on those 20 somethings running all those red lights to get someplace 20 seconds sooner. I'm not worried about toilet paper. No one cares if their dog craps in someone else's yard. They shouldn't mind if I do. What will really mess them up is their inability to get to the vape store. That's what will kill them. They'll starve to death because no one knows how to cook. Everyone eats out. They'll stand in front of their stove just trying to figure out how to turn it on. Some people are so stressed out about this stupid disease. They just need a hug...around the neck...with a rope. Maybe if the government will pass another damn law and tax us that will stop the spread. Hey! Step back. You're getting in my space.

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## Fixit

What I am saying is where I live ,how I live and what I have on hand i could stay on May property for 3 years and not leave it . I don't see as a necessary outcome of this but it could be done. The idea is to self isolate before getting infected

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## Rick

And then you get an infected piece of mail and BOOM, you're dead. Or not. It could go either way.

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## Cliff Booth

> And then you get an infected piece of mail and BOOM, you're dead. Or not. It could go either way.


3.4% of the time, it kills you every time.

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## Fixit

There is no phone , power of water lines where I live. USPS ,UPS nor FEDEX delivers where I live . If I stand in the right spot i can hit a cell tower of talk and the radio picks up but no TV

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, of course you can get reinfected, the same with a cold or the flu. One thing that seems to be contagious is mass insanity.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...f-the-semester

They have a viable option, they can go online.

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## rebel

Less than 20 have been killed by a mountain lion since 1890. Doesnt mean I want to take a chance. Ask one of the less than 20.

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## Cliff Booth

> Less than 20 have been killed by a mountain lion since 1890. Doesnt mean I want to take a chance. Ask one of the less than 20.


Damn. I didnt even realize mountain lions could carry the Coronavirus. The world just got that much scarier. 


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## WolfVanZandt

We have mountain lions around here. They rarely attack anyone. People that get attacked by mountain lions are almost always provoking the cat. (Like the people who want to have their pictures taken with the cute buffalo or moose). The key to not getting mailed by Bambi or Dumbo, is to understand the animals you might have to deal with. The reason we don't have a problem with the plague around here is that we understand the plague, the fleas and the prairie dogs that carry both.

You survive nature by understanding it...not by prepping

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## rebel

Lol, that wasnt my intention but, itll work out. Seems like if we help when and where we can, things go pretty good.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I prefer to stay home.  I wouldn't go on a cruise at gunpoint.  I get seasick at the slightest bit of wave action, so getting the coronavirus would be a blessing at that point.  Inland bays and lakes, no problem, ocean, fetal position praying for death.

#1 wife woke up with fever last night.  Trip to Germ Central (the Dr office), UTI, got a shot and some antibiotics, cardiologist for her tomorrow too.  My two days of exposure to all the germs will be over until Thursday when I have to have my bloodwork done so I can find out I used to be perfectly healthy before I went to Doctor's offices three days in a row.  

How long could I go with what is in the house? Indefinitely.  Well water, vegetable garden and about 20 deer troop by the back fence every evening not to mention various sundry birds, squirrels, and such that inhabit the spread.  Besides, I just don't eat that much any more....

The big problem would be meds.  They come in 30 day supplies.  I used to take half doses and get standard refills.  That would give me some wriggle room if TSHTF.  Probably should start doing that again.

Alan

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## rebel

> I prefer to stay home.  I wouldn't go on a cruise at gunpoint.  I get seasick at the slightest bit of wave action, so getting the coronavirus would be a blessing at that point.  Inland bays and lakes, no problem, ocean, fetal position praying for death.
> 
> #1 wife woke up with fever last night.  Trip to Germ Central (the Dr office), UTI, got a shot and some antibiotics, cardiologist for her tomorrow too.  My two days of exposure to all the germs will be over until Thursday when I have to have my bloodwork done so I can find out I used to be perfectly healthy before I went to Doctor's offices three days in a row.  
> 
> How long could I go with what is in the house? Indefinitely.  Well water, vegetable garden and about 20 deer troop by the back fence every evening not to mention various sundry birds, squirrels, and such that inhabit the spread.  Besides, I just don't eat that much any more....
> 
> The big problem would be meds.  They come in 30 day supplies.  I used to take half doses and get standard refills.  That would give me some wriggle room if TSHTF.  Probably should start doing that again.
> 
> Alan


Is this bait?

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## WolfVanZandt

I'm taking notes about who I'll be visiting...just for a few days, mind you.

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## Rick

Hey Alan, those waves go Uuuup, then they go doooown. Then they go uuuup then they go doooown. 




> mountain lions could carry the Coronavirus


 Only the Zombie ones.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Hey Alan, those waves go Uuuup, then they go doooown. Then they go uuuup then they go doooown. 
> 
>  Only the Zombie ones.


Stooooooop!


Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Is this bait?


Only if the trolls are biting...


Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Is this bait?


One time I tried to go on a snapper fishing trip with my two oldest sons.  I took dramamine for two days and didn't eat on the day of.  I was alright on the trip out there and caught one snapper.  Then ...... it happened.  I was hanging off the stern chumming.  Don't know what I was throwing up but there was plenty of it.  

If the boat was stopped I was laying on the floor in the cabin.  When the skipper would move to another reef I would go out and check on the boys.  When the boat stopped, I would chum then back to the cabin.  When we got back to the dock I stepped on the dock and it was over.  No more sick...  Damnedest thing.  I love to fish, but not offshore.

Alan

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## rebel

which one is it?

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> which one is it?


Not sure I understand the question then.

Alan

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## Cliff Booth

> We have mountain lions around here. They rarely attack anyone. People that get attacked by mountain lions are almost always provoking the cat. (Like the people who want to have their pictures taken with the cute buffalo or moose). The key to not getting mailed by Bambi or Dumbo, is to understand the animals you might have to deal with. The reason we don't have a problem with the plague around here is that we understand the plague, the fleas and the prairie dogs that carry both.
> 
> You survive nature by understanding it...not by prepping


Thats a load off my mind. I never approach wild animals. Should be safe from the Coronavirus. 


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## rebel

> Not sure I understand the question then.
> 
> Alan


Its alright. Its pretty clear that you dont and wont. Eventually it will. As it will for all of us.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

wow.... that's deep...

Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

There's an interactive map in this article that will show #cases, active cases, deaths and most importantly, the #of those who have recovered from the virus.  

do not download map


Of course everyone will draw their own conclusions.  Mine is that there seems to be a significant number of recoveries.  I would still like to see demographics on those who have died.  I think it will be very telling.


Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

and then I find this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoff.../#4ebf863a3253


Alan

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## Cliff Booth

Someone was wanting Johns Hopkins info.  Here you go:

A few things from Dr. Amesh Adalja at JH.  It's more infectious and deadlier than flu.  In the next 12-18 months around 600-990,000 dead and half the country infected.  He uses a fairly low (in comparison to others) mortality rate of 0.6% for his predictions.

He didn't really talk about it, but that would completely overwhelm our hospitals.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Until I found out that the map I was looking at was possibly malware, .... my interpretation was that spread and new infections were plateauing/slowing and recoveries were increasing...

Alan

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## Rick

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ses-in-us.html

Form your own opinions. I'm not about to worry about some guy predicting a disease that we only have less than a two month history on.

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## Phaedrus

I don't drink Corona so hopefully I'm safe! :eyepoke:

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## BENESSE

Well, there's no dispute the situation is changing daily in the US and for the worse. There are some crucial things we could be doing better. And IMO, that includes suspending travel from ALL foreign countries. Why the heck exempt UK, when people can just fly there and out to the US. 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/12/fauci-...se-is-failing/

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Second graph is encouraging.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/gr...ak/4945223002/

Alan

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## Rick

They just closed most of the schools here and eliminated all assemblies over 250 people around here.

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## nell67

> They just closed most of the schools here and eliminated all assemblies over 250 people around here.


Yea, Louisville is shutting down everything. Even Kentucky Derby events scheduled thru April 5th.

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## Cliff Booth

> Second graph is encouraging.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/gr...ak/4945223002/
> 
> Alan


That is probably more a function of limited testing than any meaningful reduction in spread.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Second graph is encouraging.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/gr...ak/4945223002/
> 
> Alan


Not so much any more....


Alan

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## rebel

> And IMO, that includes suspending travel from ALL foreign
> 
> https://nypost.com/2020/03/12/fauci-...se-is-failing/


I did that 6 weeks ago

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## BENESSE

HIV drugs used to treat Corona successfully. I would think in dire circumstances and in the absence of a vaccaine this makes more sense than most things.

https://nypost.com/2020/03/12/hiv-dr...rus-treatment/

----------


## BENESSE

Being deathly ill and hearing "more testing is needed" despite some successes of the experimental treatment is idiotic. Why not let people decide for themselves along the lines of "the right to try"?

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Dr. Oz said, "If you are sick, take 80 milligrams of zinc daily, 250 milligrams of vitamin C twice daily, 250 milligrams of beta-glucan daily and take elderberry syrup or lozenges four times a day for five days ".

Well, he is a doctor....

I already take the Zinc (50 mg) and Vit C (1000 mg x 2 daily)  as a matter of course but I know nothing about the other two.  

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

You folks realize this will be an every year thing. Of course, people won't lose their minds about it every year because the mass hysteria will have died down.

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, beta-glucan...blah, but elderberry is pretty good. It's in Ricola.

----------


## Alan R McDaniel Jr

The plain old flu kills thousands every year despite flu shots and everything else.  Two years ago two days before Christmas the wife of a good friend of mine got a little sick.  By that night she was a lot sick.  He took her to the ER.  They sent her home, said it might be the flu.  Christmas Eve she decorated the Church.  Christmas Eve night she went back to the ER.  She was dead by daybreak Christmas morning.  The flu.  Perfectly healthy woman 60 years old dead in two days from the regular flu.  I'll bet the same scenario played out thousands of times across America but there was no mass hysteria spending the rent money on toilet paper...

Alan

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## nell67

I think most of the folks buying up the toilet paper, bleach and hand sanitizer are not hoarding it, they are waiting for stores to be sold out and then reselling it for a mark-up. They are creating a market for themselves by buying it all. A lady in a neighboring county was posting a case of the small personal sized hand sanitizers (48 per case) for $50 plus shipping costs to your location last week. It's a money making scheme.

----------


## Rick

> Well, he is a doctor....




You know what they call the guy that graduated last in his class...doctor.

----------


## BENESSE

There is also another aspect to hoarding. The production and supply chain can get disrupted if a lot of people start getting sick and not reporting to work. Or if China decides they'll start playing hardball and not let us have a $hitload of stuff we depend on them for. It's not hard to imagine that scenario--at least that's what's what crosses my mind. 

I don't have the space to hoard in a NYC apt but I've always believed in have a few months supply of anything, even more for food and meds. That's just how I roll.

----------


## BENESSE

BTW, here are some additional suggestions on prevention, some of which I haven't heard before. Certainly no harm in implementing.

Taiwan experts provide a simple self-check that we can do every morning: Take a deep breath and hold it for more than 10 seconds. If you do this successfully without coughing, without discomfort, stiffness or tightness, there is no fibrosis in the lungs; it basically indicates no infection. In critical times, please self-check every morning in an environment with clean air. 


Also good advice by Japanese doctors treating COVID-19 cases: Everyone should ensure your mouth & throat are moist, never dry. Take a few sips of water every 15 minutes at least. Why? Even if the virus gets into your mouth, drinking water or other liquids will wash them down through your throat and into the stomach. Once there, your stomach acid can kill all the virus. If you don't drink enough water regularly, the virus can enter your windpipe and then the lungs. That's very dangerous.


SOME IMPORTANT FACTS: 

If you have a runny nose and sputum, you have a common cold.Coronavirus pneumonia is a dry cough with no runny nose.This new virus is not heat-resistant and will be killed by a temperature of just 26/27 degrees C. (About 77 degrees F.) It hates the Sun.If someone sneezes with it, it goes about 10 feet before it drops to the ground and is no longer airborne.If it drops on a metal surface it will live for at least 12 hours - so if you come into contact with any metal surface, wash your hands as soon as you can with a bacterial soap.On fabric it can survive for 6-12 hours. normal laundry detergent will kill itDrinking warm water is effective for all viruses. Try not to drink liquids with ice.Wash your hands frequently as the virus can only live on your hands for 5-10 minutes, but - a lot can happen during that time - you can rub your eyes, pick your nose unwittingly and so on.You should also gargle as a prevention. A simple solution of salt in warm water will suffice.Can't stress enough - drink plenty of water!

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## madmax

No tp in our Publix.  I have a stash of 800 grit thats good to go though.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Do you use the 800 grit on an orbital, vibrating, or belt sander?

Just curious as to the most efficient process....


Alan

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## madmax

No no.  Off grid prepared.  Hand tools only.

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## BENESSE

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## BENESSE

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## Rick

I had to go to the store this morning for normal stuff. Man! People are nuts. Bread and milk, gone. The longest check out line I've ever seen. They are creating an artificial shortage. People had cases and cases of water. Water! Do they think the area is going to become a desert? My son told me Disneyland had closed. I told him to cheer up. The sewage plant was still open. You have to keep stuff in perspective.

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## Cliff Booth

> You folks realize this will be an every year thing. Of course, people won't lose their minds about it every year because the mass hysteria will have died down.


So the Johns Hopkins guy saying a million Americans might die not doing anything for you?  I though Johns Hopkins was who we are supposed to listen to.

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## Cliff Booth

> The plain old flu kills thousands every year despite flu shots and everything else.  Two years ago two days before Christmas the wife of a good friend of mine got a little sick.  By that night she was a lot sick.  He took her to the ER.  They sent her home, said it might be the flu.  Christmas Eve she decorated the Church.  Christmas Eve night she went back to the ER.  She was dead by daybreak Christmas morning.  The flu.  Perfectly healthy woman 60 years old dead in two days from the regular flu.  I'll bet the same scenario played out thousands of times across America but there was no mass hysteria spending the rent money on toilet paper...
> 
> Alan


We know how to treat the flu.  We don't know how to treat this.

This is more infectious than flu.

This is deadlier than flu by a factor of 10 or more.

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## Cliff Booth

> BTW, here are some additional suggestions on prevention, some of which I haven't heard before. Certainly no harm in implementing.
> 
> [FONT="]Taiwan experts provide a simple self-check that we can do every morning: Take a deep breath and hold it for more than 10 seconds. If you do this successfully without coughing, without discomfort, stiffness or tightness, there is no fibrosis in the lungs; it basically indicates no infection. In critical times, please self-check every morning in an environment with clean air. [/FONT]
> [FONT="]
> [/FONT]
> [FONT="]Also good advice by Japanese doctors treating COVID-19 cases: Everyone should ensure your mouth & throat are moist, never dry. Take a few sips of water every 15 minutes at least. Why? Even if the virus gets into your mouth, drinking water or other liquids will wash them down through your throat and into the stomach. Once there, your stomach acid can kill all the virus. If you don't drink enough water regularly, the virus can enter your windpipe and then the lungs. That's very dangerous.[/FONT]
> [FONT="]
> [/FONT]
> SOME IMPORTANT FACTS: 
> ...


Hmmm.  Where did you find this?  I'm pretty skeptical.

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## WolfVanZandt

Nell, it's both. Listen to what people are saying at the checkout counter. We overheard two ladies wondering whether they should buy more soap or hand sanitizer. One said, "No. We should get more hand sanitizer. They're saying the power companies will shut down."

There are quite a few doctors in the John Hopkins system. Purely by chance, you can expect some to be fear-mongers. Folks like Cliff cherry pick the few that have their viewpoint for their arguments. The rest of us go to John Hopkins (the recommendations page and the other pages on the John Hopkins site...not cherry-picked individuals...for our information....or other reliable sources.

Our greatest enemy is indeed fear itself and fear-mongers are it's prophets.

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## WolfVanZandt

Thanks, Benesse for the tips. Just one thing, this is the beginning of allergy season. With a lung inflammation (not necessarily an infection) you won't be able to hold your breath either. That particular test is laden with false positives.

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## Cliff Booth

> Nell, it's both. Listen to what people are saying at the checkout counter. We overheard two ladies wondering whether they should buy more soap or hand sanitizer. One said, "No. We should get more hand sanitizer. They're saying the power companies will shut down."
> 
> There are quite a few doctors in the John Hopkins system. Purely by chance, you can expect some to be fear-mongers. Folks like Cliff cherry pick the few that have their viewpoint for their arguments. The rest of us go to John Hopkins (the recommendations page and the other pages on the John Hopkins site...not cherry-picked individuals...for our information....or other reliable sources.
> 
> Our greatest enemy is indeed fear itself and fear-mongers are it's prophets.


He's their senior scholar on emerging infectious disease, pandemic preparedness, and biosecurity.  Not some random quack.

He's also specifically warned against being a toilet paper hoarding moron.

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## Rick

Hey, I don't hoard toilet paper. I can't deny the rest however.

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## WolfVanZandt

I don't either. But I do hoard crunchy snacks. I can't get enough of them!

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## WolfVanZandt

After 47 years in the medical community, both training 20 years in Auburn University training for a health profession and 20 years of practice, I am convinced that if an organization has initials that begin and end "A" they're evil to the core. That's not conspiracy theory, that's my experience, that's academic research articles, and that's news articles like:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/r...velation/72407


https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/drug-prices


As a result, I don't trust much of anyone "out there". I will look at organizations like John Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic because they seem to be somewhat less infected by 
corporate greed than most resources. But they also support the drug companies that are bleeding the country dry.

My real recommendation:

You folks have lived for how many years through how many crises that have turned out to be tempests in teapot stirred up by people who are concerned for their own interests? If you're too young for that, look to the past (I'm not stupid enough to appeal to the experience of older people). People don't study history now days and that's a crying ( and dangerous) shame. Study your own experiences. Ask why things happen the way you observe them to happen. Approach things critically and make rational decisions.

And don't swallow what fear-mongers want to feed you.

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## Cliff Booth

NCAA just gave up a billion in advertising revenue so youd buy more drugs. Open your eyes people. 


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## Cliff Booth

These Italian doctors saying Northern Italy is completely overwhelmed must be just making bank on their crazy lies. 


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## crashdive123

On a happier note...............my Christmas shopping is done.

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## WolfVanZandt

Cool. I love the decor.

Cliff, NCAA doesn't have an initial A.  I just pinched myself. I'm awake.

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## rebel

Ummm....no surprise http://.com/index.php/en/news-page/n...virus-outbreak

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## WolfVanZandt

Dead link?

I couldn't open it.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

There's a limited number of ways to "treat" a virus.  You either proactively treat it with a vaccine if there is one, or you try to keep the fever down and let it run it's course.  There are some antiviral meds but I'm not sure how they work or if they work.  

We believe you believe what you believe Cliff.  Others have that right too.  Caution is not the same thing as hand wringing.

Alan

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## Rick

Italy has about 15,000 cases nationally. I'm not certain that's overwhelmed but so be it. You seem to think that the medical community is ill equipped to handle such an outbreak yet you forget that the military has the reserve capacity to set up hospitals with like facilities in hot zones to add expanded capacity. That is true of National Guard and regular military. Most nations have that capacity. This is one more disease that will pass. Practice proper hygiene, keep your finger out of your nose, don't sneeze on each other and stop hoarding stuff.

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## WolfVanZandt

And none of us are blowing this thing off. It's just that we know that hysteria isn't the answer. Also, many of us are old enough to have been stung multiple times by the health system in the past. You're not going to convince us if their purity and self-denying attitudes.

Also, "open your eyes folks" will not win you a cupie doll. Being an undergrad in anthropology doesn't make you an anthropologist. Many of us have been around several times, probably, before you were born. We're not stupid.

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## Cliff Booth

> There's a limited number of ways to "treat" a virus.  You either proactively treat it with a vaccine if there is one, or you try to keep the fever down and let it run it's course.  There are some antiviral meds but I'm not sure how they work or if they work.  
> 
> We believe you believe what you believe Cliff.  Others have that right too.  Caution is not the same thing as hand wringing.
> 
> Alan


Im probably exposed to more people every day than the majority of the board, but Im still at work putting my face in other peoples. 

All I really care about anyone here accepting is:  This is a serious situation. This is not some conspiracy. Just because Costco shoppers are acting crazy does not mean the entirety of the situation is crazy. 


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## Rick

I can actually remember being quarantined in my home as a kid. I had the mumps. They placed a sign on the front door. That was before MMR vaccines. My buddy down the street got quarantined as well but I don't remember if that was for mumps or measles. Those of us that are really old remember what life was like before vaccines. I tell my kids GET THE SHOT! My son told me today he was worried about being quarantined (missing work). I said you don't know what quarantined means.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Mumps, measles, etc... sick like a sombich and all there was was aspirin and a cool washrag.  Don't bite the thermometer cause then mercury would run down your throat.  Ever had a Merthiolate  swab in your throat?  Tastes terrible, works great.  Got a fever? Pile on the blankets until you sweat it out.  Thank God I came along after  tetanus shots.  I would have died before I could walk.  Seems like I was getting those things all the time.  Most of the time if we got sick, we were just sick, freakin 104 fever, delirious, ice came from ice trays and it was hard to keep up with a good strong fever in NO AC.  

Ah, the good old days before Nanny Sam took such good care of us.


Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Cliff, I think you said it was more infectious and 10 times as deadly a while back.  

40 dead as of today.  Only 349,999,960 Americans left to go.

More people died on US highways today than of the coronavirus so far.

But the CDC today suggested that everyone spend all their money on hand sanitizer, baby wipes and TP..... Oh, wait they didn't say that....


Alan

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## Rick

The greatest remedy on the face of the earth was mom's chicken soup and goose fat generously applied to the neck and covered with a flannel rag. That would cure leprosy. Coal oil and sugar never cured anything but you professed to be cured so you didn't get another dose. That was some nasty stuff.

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## Cliff Booth

> Cliff, I think you said it was more infectious and 10 times as deadly a while back.  
> 
> 40 dead as of today.  Only 349,999,960 Americans left to go.
> 
> More people died on US highways today than of the coronavirus so far.
> 
> But the CDC today suggested that everyone spend all their money on hand sanitizer, baby wipes and TP..... Oh, wait they didn't say that....
> 
> 
> Alan


I said that or the head of the NIH said that?

Do you understand how exponential growth works?  The idea that it isn't a big deal because it's not serious right now is just hilarious.  Do you recall what Italy looked like a couple of weeks ago?

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## Cliff Booth

> And none of us are blowing this thing off. It's just that we know that hysteria isn't the answer. Also, many of us are old enough to have been stung multiple times by the health system in the past. You're not going to convince us if their purity and self-denying attitudes.
> 
> Also, "open your eyes folks" will not win you a cupie doll. Being an undergrad in anthropology doesn't make you an anthropologist. Many of us have been around several times, probably, before you were born. We're not stupid.


Some recent Wolf quotes:

"the flu is scarier. Cars are definitely scarier."

"Now they're (China) losing there minds over a cold?"


"This is not a pandemic"- You then implied China is faking all this in order to sell surgical masks.

"Heck, if we're all quarantined on election day, we just won't have an election, will we?"

"If you have a compromised immune system, you should be concerned about this virus, but otherwise, it's not a big deal."

"rates are tools for mass manipulation."

"Government definitely wants you to stay inside."

"And what I'm also saying is that what marketers, politicians, and big name business people want is for you to lose your marbles."
Yeah, panic has really done wonders for the value of big business stocks.

"I will call it no big deal as long as the medical experts (in my case, John Hopkins and Mayo - hmmm, now I'm hungry) call it no big deal." 
I bring up JH canceling sporting events and their head infectious disease guy saying it's a potential catastrophe and now that's also written off as fear-mongering.

"This new cold" 

There's probably a few more in there.  Sure seems like you are blowing it off as a minor issue and having a hard time deciding between politicians, big business, drug companies, media, China, and whichever other crazy conspiracy.

I'll continue to post expert opinion and statistical analysis.  You can take solace in possibly being older than me.

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## rebel

Lol. Two weeks ago i said to the kid that he should get some provisions. As usual I was given the nah. Today he cant find any TP.  Bend over and wait for the garden hose. Lol

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> I said that or the head of the NIH said that?
> 
> Do you understand how exponential growth works?


Yes, and so does the toilet paper industry....


Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Give it up Cliff.  I'm hopeless.   I lived through imminent crispy critter death of the Cold War, the mind bending 70's, Y2K, then the Rapture left me behind, Obama, and now this exponentially deadly disease.... I ain't fraid of nuthin, ceptin that curly headed woman in the TV room....

I hope you're wrong Cliff.  Gloom and Doom is the pits...


Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> The greatest remedy on the face of the earth was mom's chicken soup and goose fat generously applied to the neck and covered with a flannel rag. That would cure leprosy. Coal oil and sugar never cured anything but you professed to be cured so you didn't get another dose. That was some nasty stuff.


I never had the goose fat remedy, probably because not geese were at hand.  Vick's Vapo Rub was my mom's go to remedy.  

The Doctor we went to would give you a shot then ask what was wrong with us.  If we found out that we were going to the Dr everybody got well real fast.  We didn't have any inclination to fake sickness to miss school.  School held no horrors like staying home sick.

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

Mustrola...you haven't lived until. And Sal Hapatica
 Boy, what they did to us!

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## crashdive123

> I can actually remember being quarantined in my home as a kid. I had the mumps. They placed a sign on the front door. That was before MMR vaccines. My buddy down the street got quarantined as well but I don't remember if that was for mumps or measles. Those of us that are really old remember what life was like before vaccines. I tell my kids GET THE SHOT! My son told me today he was worried about being quarantined (missing work). I said you don't know what quarantined means.


Remember it well.  I was relegated to the hide-a-bed in the living room while the doctor (with his little black bag) made house calls.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

We had a regular ward. My two next youngest sisters and I all had the damn things at the same time.  We were all in one bedroom together.  All I remember is how dark and gloomy it was in there.  The moaning and groaning and crying and stuff didn't help any either.  Then we all got the measles and the next year the chicken pox and German Measles, in addition to my youngest sister being born.  I really don't know how my mom did it.  She was a Super Mom!

Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Mustrola...you haven't lived until. And Sal Hapatica
>  Boy, what they did to us!


I don't know about those things.  That's probably a good thing.

Alan

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## rebel

Do your Best  and  thats it

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye. They had a laxative called "black draught". It was advertised as "mild". If it was mild, so is strychnine. There were some terrible things back then to help cure hookyitis.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

We learned early on no to mention feeling sick, and certainly not IRREGULARITY at my grandmother's house.  She had some "cures" that would make a witch doctor blanche!

When we moved, I was going through some of my old stuff and I found a letter one of my little sisters wrote to me during a Summer stay at my grandmother's house.  She felt the need to tell me she had "thrown up" her red worm medicine.  Momaw took visits as an opportunity to cure anything we had for the whole year.  I don't remember having worms.

I was always up and outta there with my grandfather and stayed gone with him all day, so I was safe.  My sisters were trapped.

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

There's a book, Henley's Twentieth Century Formulas, Recipes, and Processes. In addition to being fascinating, and even useful if you know what you're doing, it also makes me wonder how humanity survived to the present day 

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/53143

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## WolfVanZandt

Ah, okay, the whole, huge tome is here:

https://archive.org/details/cu319240...ge/n6/mode/2up

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## Rick

We got dewormed every spring. I have no idea what was in that bottle but I'm certain it killed worms. It damned near killed us. We also received an occasional dose of mineral oil and orange juice. I'm not sure what the orange juice was added because no matter how hard you shook that mixture it always separated. We must be a lot tougher than this younger generation because the weak ones back then surely died from home remedies.

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## Rick

I don't know how many saw the President's speech yesterday but Google is working on a website that will allow you to input your symptoms then tell you if you should be tested for the coronavirus. If YES then you will be able to drive to a Walmart, CVS, Target or Walgreens and be tested in the parking lot and receive the results in 24-36 hours. Drive through testing. I thought that was pretty innovative thinking. Google has some 1400+ programmers working on the website and it's supposed to be up and running shortly. There is supposed to be another announcement Sunday so we'll see.

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## Cliff Booth

> Give it up Cliff.  I'm hopeless.   I lived through imminent crispy critter death of the Cold War, the mind bending 70's, Y2K, then the Rapture left me behind, Obama, and now this exponentially deadly disease.... I ain't fraid of nuthin, ceptin that curly headed woman in the TV room....
> 
> I hope you're wrong Cliff.  Gloom and Doom is the pits...
> 
> 
> Alan


I'm really not doom and gloom.  I have no bunker.  I have about the same amount of food in my house as I always do.  The only prepping I've done was get ahead of the rush on gloves, masks, and distilled water, all of which I need for work.

This isn't the apocalypse, but it's going to have a very real impact on our lives.  Hopefully it's nothing more than a temporary inconvenience and a very small number of people getting seriously ill.

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## Cliff Booth

> I don't know how many saw the President's speech yesterday but Google is working on a website that will allow you to input your symptoms then tell you if you should be tested for the coronavirus. If YES then you will be able to drive to a Walmart, CVS, Target or Walgreens and be tested in the parking lot and receive the results in 24-36 hours. Drive through testing. I thought that was pretty innovative thinking. Google has some 1400+ programmers working on the website and it's supposed to be up and running shortly. There is supposed to be another announcement Sunday so we'll see.


They have a bomb-defusing robot that's going to roll out to the parking lot to administer the test.

But in seriousness, very encouraging to see private enterprise stepping up to the plate.

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## nell67

> Aye. They had a laxative called "black draught". It was advertised as "mild". If it was mild, so is strychnine. There were some terrible things back then to help cure hookyitis.


 Here the laxative was Fletcher's Castoria, whew, that was bad. And The Vic's Vapo rub on our chest with a towel heated in the oven laid over top of it before bed at night.

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## nell67

> We got dewormed every spring. I have no idea what was in that bottle but I'm certain it killed worms. It damned near killed us. We also received an occasional dose of mineral oil and orange juice. I'm not sure what the orange juice was added because no matter how hard you shook that mixture it always separated. We must be a lot tougher than this younger generation because the weak ones back then surely died from home remedies.


 Mineral Oil and orange juice... They used to suggest that remedy to women to try to induce labor. That's some powerful $h!t right there.

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## Rick

I see what you did there.

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## WolfVanZandt

My father used to use Vaseline on his hair. His hair didn't turn gray or white, it looked like glass fiber so, when he put Vaseline on it, it was black again.

He ran out of Vaseline once and decided to use mineral oil. Turns out it works just as well absorbed through your scalp as by mouth.

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## nell67

> My father used to use Vaseline on his hair. His hair didn't turn gray or white, it looked like glass fiber so, when he put Vaseline on it, it was black again.
> 
> He ran out of Vaseline once and decided to use mineral oil. Turns out it works just as well absorbed through your scalp as by mouth.


I hope he was close to a facility when it kicked in.

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye, he was at home, but he spent quite some time in just one room for the next couple of days.

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## BENESSE

> I don't know how many saw the President's speech yesterday but Google is working on a website that will allow you to input your symptoms then tell you if you should be tested for the coronavirus. If YES then you will be able to drive to a Walmart, CVS, Target or Walgreens and be tested in the parking lot and receive the results in 24-36 hours. Drive through testing. I thought that was pretty innovative thinking. Google has some 1400+ programmers working on the website and it's supposed to be up and running shortly. There is supposed to be another announcement Sunday so we'll see.


I watched it and was very encouraged. Hope they can pull it all off with lightning speed because we'll need it. Wouldn't it be great if for once the whole country--the government and private sector united for the greater good of the country?

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## BENESSE

Not surprised how popular this doctor got:
https://nypost.com/2020/03/14/retire...avirus-advice/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etlyvt9n_QE

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## Rick

Very informative. I had never seen him or his vids. Thanks for posting. 


In other news....

Chuck Norris contracted coronavirus and now the disease has been quarantined for 14 days. 

Chuck Norris' tears are the vaccine for the virus but he has never cried so they can't be used.

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## rebel

lol, no. You gotta....http://https://nationalfile.com/repo...e-coronavirus/

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## Cliff Booth

> lol, no. You gotta....http://https://nationalfile.com/repo...e-coronavirus/


In more promising news they are learning that anti-malarials may stop covid19s replication process. 

Thats a cheap, easily produced drug that even the poorest countries have on hand. Could be a huge break. 


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## Phaedrus

That would be good news, Cliff!

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## Rick

And...gin and tonic isn't all that bad!   :Stuart:

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## zedsdead

Remember, listen to your Government. They know best. They're not foaming at the mouth imagining controlling the masses over a new flu.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Reading an article on Fox News this morning.  A nurse in Colorado got the CV and made this statement about the symptoms....

We got back and my muscles ached, my bones ached and my joints ached really bad, Merck said. It felt like someone was stabbing me with an ice pick ..."

I felt really short of breath, I felt very fatigued, whenever I stand, I feel like Im going to faint.



I'm thinking, "Shoot, I've had the CV for ten years now!"


Alan

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## JohnLeePettimore

> And...gin and tonic isn't all that bad!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-4VNr6R0S4

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## BENESSE

Please take a listen on what meds are OK to take under what circumstances. Also, this doctor has Youtube posts daily as things develop around the world and it's really useful to follow to try to make sense of it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuWo5lmWuZI

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## BENESSE

Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSwYGhmnwo

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## LowKey

What good, exactly, is a shelter-in-place order if you're not coordinating the effort with the surrounding states?
https://nypost.com/2020/03/16/san-fr...n-place-order/

Coincidence this is Pelosi's constituency?
(Remove that if too political.)

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## nell67

Whew, The Kentucky Derby has now been postponed until September, Keenland has been canceled. Kentucky, and Louisville in general will be raising taxes to cover for the lost revenue. Except they have shut down all in dining restaurant and bars for at least three weeks, possibly as long as 8 weeks, depending on how this is playing out at that time. So, no green beer this year, unless you are DIY.

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## LowKey

Never found green beer to be a necessity to party on St. Patrick's day. Actually, I kind of avoid it.

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## Rick

St. Patricks Day has been ruined for me for a long time. Several years ago I had a female employee tell me she had dyed a part of her anatomy for St. Patrick's Day. I told her that was waaaay too much information to be sharing with her boss. St. Patrick's Day has made me a bit ill ever since. I can't get that memory out of my head.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I've got a lot of Irish blood in my veins and I've certainly done my part in keeping my kinsmen from ruling the world, but, even in my most inebriate, needful state, 

I would not "Go Green"!


Alan

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## nell67

I've never had green beer, and avoid it and anything to do with St. Patrick's day since my kids were little, and their dad decided he was going out with his co-workers for green beer after work one year.  He never gave me money to buy groceries or buy diapers for the babies, and we had two in diapers at the time. It was HIS money, and he was the one who would spend it how he saw fit. I reminded him that we had not bought groceries yet, and we needed diapers so don't spend too much money. 


 He swore that he was only going to go drink one beer an then be home before 6, and when he finally showed up around 11:00. I was livid. I had reheated supper so many times trying to keep it hot so he could eat when he got home and was standing there rewarming it yet again when he walked in. I could tell he was drunk, and he had driven from Louisville, 30 miles to get home, VERY drunk.   He walked in with a big grin on his face, that did not last long when I turned around and he saw just how pi$$ed I was. 

 I knew he had no money left. But I asked him if he had kept grocery and diaper money and he laughed and said he had no money left, but that I could pull money out of what I had hidden, he knew I had money hidden somewhere,he was still grinning while he was talking about my hidden money. I didn't work with three small kids, I would pay more in daycare than what I was making when I did work, so we had agreed that I would stay home until they were in school, but he never gave me anything more than the change out of his pocket when he cashed his check, there was no hidden money.

 When he told me to calm down, he almost wasn't fast enough when his favorite coffee mug crashed behind him against the door. I slammed the cabinet door I had opened to get a plate for his food, but grabbed the mug instead when he opened his mouth, I told him less than politely to never EVER tell me to calm down again, shut the stove off and went to bed. and the whole time I could hear him ranting about how it was HIS money and he'd do what he wanted to with it. I reminded him that I knew his social security number and that he was going to need two more jobs to afford the child support if HE didn't SHUT UP.

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## nell67

> St. Patricks Day has been ruined for me for a long time. Several years ago I had a female employee tell me she had dyed a part of her anatomy for St. Patrick's Day. I told her that was waaaay too much information to be sharing with her boss. St. Patrick's Day has made me a bit ill ever since. I can't get that memory out of my head.


  Rick,   I heard a joke(?) once about a young female (early twenty's) who was brought into the ER of a hospital very i'll and in much abdominal pain. She had purple hair, multiple piercings and she also had dyed that part of her anatomy green. Above the area was a tattoo of a small lawnmower and the words "Keep Off the grass" beside the mower. 

 It turns out, she is suffering from appendicitis, and was rushed into emergency surgery. Several hours later when she woke up, she lifted the sheets to see the surgical sight. On her stomach beside the mower, the doctor had written a note of his own. " Sorry, I had to mow the Lawn".

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## crashdive123

Now that right there is funny.  Gotta love a doc with a good sense of humor.

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## WolfVanZandt

I loves stories, telling them and hearing them. My favorite teaching method is sharing stories. But I have a weird quirk

Folks stop their story when the point is made, but I'm never satisfied. I guess Paul Harvey and I have the same affliction.

So Nell, did he ever figure it out?

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## WolfVanZandt

Keep in mind, we're still in cold and flu season headed into allergy season. Don't you know that's throwing gasoline on the fire.

I was with one of my housemates the other day shopping when I sneezed. I threw my hands up and shouted, "It's allergies!" The woman next to us was amused.

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## BENESSE

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## Rick

You are one bad kitty.

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## rebel

Maybe businesses should stop the sales. My almost 90 yo in-laws want to go for things on sale.

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## nell67

> I loves stories, telling them and hearing them. My favorite teaching method is sharing stories. But I have a weird quirk
> 
> Folks stop their story when the point is made, but I'm never satisfied. I guess Paul Harvey and I have the same affliction.
> 
> So Nell, did he ever figure it out?


 No, he never did. He never went out to a bar again, to my knowledge,but the sad thing is,* I did*. I learned that he was a sorry SOB, that would never change his ways regarding money, He learned that from his mother. He had little regard for being an upstanding citizen when it came to paying for things that mattered with _his_ money, like bills, food (thank God I was raised a country girl and could fish and clean game animals to feed my kids, rabbit, squirrels and fish made a huge part of our meals as was whatever vegetable I could grow in the limited space available when you rent), diapers of course (and he was dead set against cloth diapers), generally anything that most men and women would feel an obligation to do, he did not. 

 I learned early on that if I left him, he would never pay child support for his kids, he had a son by another marriage that he stopped paying support for, changing jobs frequently and paying his support just enough to keep the courts from garnishing his checks. Until about 1993, he had finally accrued enough back support that When he showed up for yet another contempt of court hearing, they gave him three options pay his arrears before leaving court, go to jail, or sign his rights away. Guess which option he chose? Guess what the magic number was to break the heart of a little boy? $1200. His obligation per week was $35, and he was too selfish after a couple of years of us being married, to make sure that little boy didn't go without. His son wasn't worth spending a few days in jail. His son wasn't worth giving up his tax check for. 

There were many more times that he saw my temper, but after I bought a pistol, every time we'd fight, he'd grab the pistol and take off claiming he was just going to kill himself. And he'd stay gone all night. I never once called to cops to go find him. He was too chicken. I finally sold my gun because I hated my kids being subjected to that crap, although I'm not sure they ever figured out what his purpose was in taking off with the gun.

My kids know their father, something his oldest son does not, he was three years old when $35 a week was too much. And I hate the choice I made for my kids.

 I did eventually leave him after our kids were out of the house. And now he is in the Philippines married to a girl one year older than our daughter, and has two more kids. And he has been close to getting a divorce at least once already.  

 And that's only part of the story, just a few of the many lows  (in my best Paul Harvey voice).

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## WolfVanZandt

And how are you and your kids?

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## Phaedrus

This looks to disrupt things for a long time!  Many schools have announced the remainder of the school year has been cancelled (or changed to distance education).  My employer has us working from home at least til May, perhaps longer.  I work for a nonprofit and it's likely that we'll continue to be paid for however long this lasts.  My brother and sister both work jobs that are considered by their employers to be critical or essential, so they're probably okay unless things get Italy-level bad.

Stay safe everyone!  Wash your hands and avoid the madding crowds.

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## Cliff Booth

> This looks to disrupt things for a long time!  Many schools have announced the remainder of the school year has been cancelled (or changed to distance education).  My employer has us working from home at least til May, perhaps longer.  I work for a nonprofit and it's likely that we'll continue to be paid for however long this lasts.  My brother and sister both work jobs that are considered by their employers to be critical or essential, so they're probably okay unless things get Italy-level bad.
> 
> Stay safe everyone!  Wash your hands and avoid the madding crowds.


Wouldn't be shocked if there are some major shutdowns announced this weekend.

Sounds like there are already a few cases of some fairly young people getting into serious condition.  I hope they publicize that kind of thing to keep these college-aged kids from doing any more damage.

If they do a shutdown... there's an incubation period of about 4-6 days.  So some people will be staying home, but will still get sick.  Then they'll probably wait a day or two after developing symptoms, praying it's something else.  Then go get tested.  Test takes 6 days.  So that likely means we won't see a reduction in numbers 2 weeks in.  So we might tack on another two weeks.  A whole month of lockdown is going to be really rough on the old economy.

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## Rick

I saw pictures of Clearwater, Florida yesterday and spring break was going on as usual. The beaches were packed. One guy said there are no door handles on the beach. Brilliant. Invincible folks being really dumb.

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## Cliff Booth

> I saw pictures of Clearwater, Florida yesterday and spring break was going on as usual. The beaches were packed. One guy said there are no door handles on the beach. Brilliant. Invincible folks being really dumb.


Sorry about your lungs, Grandma.  I just had to get my drink on.

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## madmax

Crescent Beach, FL has spring breakers coming in by the van load.  And I mean van LOAD.  Young and indestructible.  Until they arent.

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## BENESSE

> I saw pictures of Clearwater, Florida yesterday and spring break was going on as usual. The beaches were packed. One guy said there are no door handles on the beach. Brilliant. Invincible folks being really dumb.


As with everything of consequence one learns the hard and often painful way. Young and old alike. We (esp. on this forum) weren't born this way; it's school of hard knocks combined with learning from others' mistakes that makes a lasting impression. Someone who has lived through the great depression and the ravages of WW2 is foreever changed and maybe something positive will come out of this pandemic as well.

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## BENESSE

I am blown away with what a differencee a week makes. Only a week ago I ordereed TP from Amazon (just in case) and was able to still buy Clorox and Lysol wipes. Now it's non existant and it has occured to me for the first time that we need to be more mindful w/ the use of TP as well as paper towels. Yesterday I bought the last box of Tylenol only because it was placed under the "arthritis" sign as opposed to "pain relievers". That shelf was empty of anything acitaminophen related. Everywhere. 

Yesterday I got an e-blast notification that a neighborhood hardware storee had gotten a batch of hand sanitizers and are selling them at cost for $9.99/8oz and 6 to a customer. I ran out and bought 6 (just in case) and let my neighbor know who also went out and bought some. The stores said 2 weeks ago they'll be restocking the stuff that flew off the shelves but they haven't yet. Not in our hood in Manhattan.

Today we have made up our minds to really stay in and not go out into the stores unless we absolutely have to. Hard to maintain 6' distance when shopping and waiting in line. Walking in the park is still great, thank God we have it just a block away. I havee never seen the city bee so empty of people and cars in the 32 years we've lived here. Kind of nice, kind of spooky--like a doomsday scenario come to life.

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## WolfVanZandt

I walked over to Fiddler's Green yesterday to take some photos of the statues there. The traffic was sparse but there were a lot of people out walking. I'm be never seen so many happy, friendly people around here.

Maybe we oughta have this corona thing more often...uh, I guess we will.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see if there's a spike in new cases after spring break.

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## rebel

Think Ill go get some cash before they close the bank.

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## BENESSE

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## Cliff Booth

> Crescent Beach, FL has spring breakers coming in by the van load.  And I mean van LOAD.  Young and indestructible.  Until they arent.


A good portion of them very well may be indestructible as far as COVID-19 is concerned. The problem is they act as carriers. The more people walking around the virus the higher the chance that Grandma with emphysema gets it and dies, likely after occupying up a hospital bed some other patient desperately needs. 


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## Rick

Our bank closed the lobby last Tuesday. Drive up and ATM only. I just happened to have gone to the bank last Friday so I'm good for a while. Still have online access too.

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## rebel

Same here. Lobby closed but, drive through was open.

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## crashdive123

The FL Gov has temporarily shut down several beaches that are popular for spring break.  I would imagine that as these people that think their right to party is more important than somebody else's health will migrate to other beaches.  Those will probably get shut down as well.  The Gov's statement was ---- your party is over.  Go home.

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## madmax

The state campgrounds closed.  But tons of spring breakers remain.

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## rebel

Yall keep em. Put them to work.

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## BENESSE

> A good portion of them very well may be indestructible as far as COVID-19 is concerned. The problem is they act as carriers. The more people walking around the virus the higher the chance that Grandma with emphysema gets it and dies, likely after occupying up a hospital bed some other patient desperately needs. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well that's about to change and there's a rude awakening about to hit the clueless. They are not so invincible as they were led to believe so if they didn't care about infecting grandma they'll care about their own self-absorbed hide. 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/20-yea...3922-720512843

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## BENESSE

> The FL Gov has temporarily shut down several beaches that are popular for spring break.  I would imagine that as these people that think their right to party is more important than somebody else's health will migrate to other beaches.  Those will probably get shut down as well.  The Gov's statement was ---- your party is over.  Go home.


The Gov should have thought about it BEFORE they showed up. If the bars and restaurants and the liquor stores were closed it wouldn't have been half as much fun showing up. Now, after rubbing elbows with their fellow snowflakes, they'll go home and pass it on to their elders. Smart thinking all around.

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## crashdive123

> The Gov should have thought about it BEFORE they showed up. If the bars and restaurants and the liquor stores were closed it wouldn't have been half as much fun showing up. Now, after rubbing elbows with their fellow snowflakes, they'll go home and pass it on to their elders. Smart thinking all around.


Those things are all closed and have been.  There is no accounting for the entitled class and the stupid.  Mrs. Crash and I went for a walk on one of our favorite beaches (skipping the gym that we usually hit 4 times a week) where we walked five miles and only saw 2 other people.  We have always planned our outings to avoid too much human contact.  Now more than ever.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Gas in San Antonio $1.70 and dropping.

Alan

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## rebel

http://https://americanmilitarynews....edium=facebook
Every state might as well go ahead and do the same right now.

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## madmax

Kelly and I are doing some home maintenance for a few days then getting back out to the fresh air and few people.  Maybe a multi day river trip.  Also going to see if we can stock up some old (er) farts with grub so they dont have to expose themselves.

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## Cliff Booth

Agreed. No need to fool around with half measures and stretch this thing out longer. Go all in now and hopefully we can get back to work quickly and get that economy back on its feet. 

In the meantime, if youve got some spare money.... whoo baby youll be able to get some stocks at close out prices right after they announce a shutdown. 


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## kyratshooter

Curb your optimism Cliff, this is just the first wave.

Historically plagues sweep through on a first wave, then after the population is exhausted they mutate slightly to avoid the immune resistance that has built up and the second wave is the one that kills the most.  

The second wave usually hits about when everyone thinks it is all over.  

Then they repeat for two-five years before they wipe out their host population and have only the resistant left.  As some of the survivors grow older they develop those diseases that the plague thrives on and it turns into what we consider the "normal" death rate only because the % of dead made up of the aging or already sick.

That is why the deaths from the "common flu" are accepted to the point that more than half our nation refuses to take a flu shot.

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## Cliff Booth

> Curb your optimism Cliff, this is just the first wave.
> 
> Historically plagues sweep through on a first wave, then after the population is exhausted they mutate slightly to avoid the immune resistance that has built up and the second wave is the one that kills the most.  
> 
> The second wave usually hits about when everyone thinks it is all over.  
> 
> Then they repeat for two-five years before they wipe out their host population and have only the resistant left.  As some of the survivors grow older they develop those diseases that the plague thrives on and it turns into what we consider the "normal" death rate only because the % of dead made up of the aging or already sick.
> 
> That is why the deaths from the "common flu" are accepted to the point that more than half our nation refuses to take a flu shot.


The peak of this thing is predicted to be end of April early May.  Need to get things under control before then.  This thing likely swings back through in the Fall, but that's a ways off.  We'll have time to prepare.  PPE, quarantine units, ventilators, and hopefully effective drugs.

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## nell67

> Those things are all closed and have been.  There is no accounting for the entitled class and the stupid.  Mrs. Crash and I went for a walk on one of our favorite beaches (skipping the gym that we usually hit 4 times a week) where we walked five miles and only saw 2 other people.  We have always planned our outings to avoid too much human contact.  Now more than ever.


 So I suppose a wolfpack gathering this year is out of the question?

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## BENESSE

Any time I'm feeling low, I look up to Kyrat to cheer me up.

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## BENESSE

Getting bad in NYC.

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## Rick



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## Rick

I asked Arnold where he found the toilet paper and he told me. 

"Aisle B, Back."

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## Rick

I've got my plan down for the rest of the quarantine. I'm going to sleep until I'm hungry then eat until I'm sleepy. I've been working on it for a couple of days now and it seems pretty solid to me.

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## crashdive123

In other news.........all of the neighborhood lawns and yards are looking good.

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## rebel

Sure would be nice to stop repetition without the stink-eye. Ie. gotta get my hair done because its Friday. Any suggestions,

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## WolfVanZandt

I just get my electric shears out and buzz away.

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## rebel

> I just get my electric shears out and buzz away.


Thats what Ill do. Come here MIL. Yea right.

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## nell67

Yea, you know it's serious when you invoke the MIL.

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## crashdive123

Just got my haircut.  Hope I don't get sick, but at least I won't be shaggy.  I use the barber on base.  There is usually a long wait.  Not this time.

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## Rick

It's hair. My life is not worth a haircut. If I have to braid, so be it.

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## crashdive123

Evidently you use the wrong barber.


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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I would imagine there would be quite a bit of wait time for that particular chair.... and make sure the barber cuts only one hair at a time...


Alan

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## Rick

I'm gonna go back in time a bit. I just read the articles.

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## madmax

No way that's the barber on base chief.

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## crashdive123

> No way that's the barber on base chief.


You'd have to be a Chief to know.

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## BENESSE

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## BENESSE

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## nell67

Benesse, you'll look like that if you let your sister talk you into letting her cut your hair too. Especially if she doesn't know how to cut naturally curly hair...

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## nell67

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


 The first person to be diagnosed in my county was sent home to self quarantine last week. They passed away at home yesterday.

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## BENESSE

> The first person to be diagnosed in my county was sent home to self quarantine last week. They passed away at home yesterday.



So heartbreaking! Apparently, this is what's going on in Italy.

Here's today's most recent update from Dr.. John Campbell about what's happening in the world. God help us all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjTTn3RSm6c

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## LowKey

God only helps those who help themselves. 
I think most of the crowd here on this forum has that part down.
Everyone at work spent the whole day Friday panicking as states started closing borders. I was going around making sure everything was put away, stored properly, and put the machines in full shut down or maintenance mode in case we got the word this weekend not to come back in, while they all ran around with their hair on fire. They thought I was weird for not worrying about food, paper towels and toiletpaper (well... I am a little worred about the TP... but the yard hasn't been raked of leaves yet...)
It would be for the best if the whole country went into lock down right now, or those people in the states already locked down are gonna be at it for a much longer time and they will panic.
Two, maybe three weeks, then hit the re-boot button. 
Hopefully they don't wait too long to do it.

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## crashdive123

> So heartbreaking! Apparently, this is what's going on in Italy.


It is.  Many seniors are not being treated.  Their socialized health care system is prioritizing who to treat (rationing), which means many seniors are being left to die.

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## rebel

> It is.  Many seniors are not being treated.  Their socialized health care system is prioritizing who to treat (rationing), which means many seniors are being left to die.


Yep, triage. The young get priority unless you got money.

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## BENESSE

With limited resources, which, btw we are facing all over the country, how do you make the hard choices?

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## Phaedrus

There's rationing here too except instead of being determined by age it's determined by wealth.  Hopefully our self-quarantine can flatten the curve so that doctors in the US don't have to make hundreds of daily decisions over who will live and who will die.

I have a friend on another forum that's in Italy.  She's scared, and things are very very bad there.  Her message is not to waste time.  Italy ignored it early on like we tried to do, and when they realized the gravity it was already too late.  There's talk of mass graves and authorities haven't been able to remove bodies from homes in a timely fashion. Some have there for days.

I am going to just stay home!  I'll go out for supplies occasionally but I have food, meds, fuel, water, etc sufficient for a few weeks at least, longer if I ration them.  My employer is having us work from home.  The one thing that's been a sanity saver is getting out to the woods.  I'm in Bozeman, Montana so I'm ringed by mountains and forests.  The weather is getting nicer so at least I can get a break my four walls.

Good luck to everyone!

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## BENESSE

Don't know about any of you but God forbid, I'm in the dire straits, I'd try anything that could possibly work, anecdotal (according to Anthony Fauci) or not. 

In my opinion there are too many instances in COVID-19 cases where it _did_ work so why not go for it? I agree with Trump here and I have always believed in the patient's right to try. Especially when you consider the alternative.

Another compelling story:
Florida man with coronavirus says drug touted by Trump saved his life

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## BENESSE

And even better, as confirmed by Dr. Oz on Fox at 7:10am--a combo of 2 drugs. (see graph in the article)
This article was published on March 19, but the study was done earlier. The results are amazing if only the US can get the drugs readily available everywhere.
*"** the results showed that while hydroxycholoroquine was effective on its own as a treatment, when combined with azithromycin it was even more effective, and by a significant margin."*
https://news.yahoo.com/french-study-finds-anti-malarial-151255085.html

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## rebel

Check out the video

http://https://halturnerradioshow.co...-floor-no-beds

Dang

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## rebel

> And even better, as confirmed by Dr. Oz on Fox at 7:10am--a combo of 2 drugs. (see graph in the article)
> This article was published on March 19, but the study was done earlier. The results are amazing if only the US can get the drugs readily available everywhere.
> *"** the results showed that while hydroxycholoroquine was effective on its own as a treatment, when combined with azithromycin it was even more effective, and by a significant margin."*
> https://news.yahoo.com/french-study-finds-anti-malarial-151255085.html


Yea, get it out there

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## BENESSE

Reb, couldn't open it.

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## Rick

We have got to teach you how to post links. 

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index...-floor-no-beds

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## Rick

I wonder if those were patients waiting to see a doctor since later in the vid there are a number of patients sitting in chairs.

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## rebel

I see that. The video was taken at a hospital in Spain. People laying on the floor coughing because of the lack of beds.

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## rebel

Thanks Rick

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## Rick

Either way, I would not want to be one of those patients. It's obvious the facility is overwhelmed. Who knows if that is an overflow from the emergency room or an overflow from an overflow.

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## kyratshooter

Kentucky just shut down all "nonessential" retail activity.  Grocery stores, gas stations, repair shops and liquor stores are the only thing to remain open after 8 pm tonight.

I have been warned, by what I consider a reliable source, that his job will be taken over by the National Guard in 2 weeks.  It has already been decided, but not announced.

We are about to go into the "isolation enforcement stage" as the illnesses increase.

My stupid neighbors are mowing their lawns with gas they may need to plant those same pampered areas into veggie patches in a few weeks.

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## Cliff Booth

I would be careful with this anti-malarial drugs. A few people in Nigeria are dead from overdose. If youre really sick, Im sure you can sign some kind of waiver and get the doc to administer it, but I wouldnt attempt to handle that yourself. 


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## WolfVanZandt

I'm also skeptical about the antibiotic. Viruses don't usually respond to antibiotics and their overuse is one of the reasons we're in this mess anyway.

You know who will be hurt by this? Small businesses. Amazon, Walmart, and Wells Fargo won't go down. If it looks bad for them, they'll be bailed out.

That woman who died in isolation? I wonder if anybody was there helping get or if they were all quarantined or social distancing. It's not the socialized medicine that killed her.

There was a post on the statistics Reddit about s project yo predict when 90% of the world population  will have been touched by a personal tragedy because of the virus. It occurred to me that, at this time, I don't know (personally) a single person who has been diagnosed with vthe virus, but my whole generation before me was taken out by cigarettes. Priorities.

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## crashdive123

Israel is sending millions of doses of the anti-malarial drugs to the US.

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## BENESSE

In Nigeria, they were self administering and they overdosed. These drugs have to be given under Dr's care and monitored.

If you are quickly deteriorating and these drugs were your only option to stay alive, I'd ask...what do you have to loose?

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## crashdive123

Additionally, they have been used for many, many years.  Granted, maybe not in these combinations, but if it was me I would want the chance if it came to that.  Right to try was fantastic legislation that was passed a while back.

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, your life.

Viruses are not living organisms. They're active chemicals that can link into cell machinery and copy themselves. 

Anti-parasitics like antimalarials are rough drugs because they have to kill things that are very much like our own cells. They're poisonous to the malarial pathogen and they're poisonous to us.

If they're attacking the virus, they're doing it indirectly.

Most of the people on this board will have no permanent harm from this virus but a lot of the behaviors I'm seeing will not only kill Grandma, they're going to kill society.

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## BENESSE

@WVZ....For me it's a no brainer. If I am facing certain death without the drugs or a shot at recovery with them, I am going for that shot. I'll take any chance no matter how low if it gives me a chance of recovery.

Of course we are all different but I hope the decision of having a shot at life is left to us not some govt. people.

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## rebel

Hey B, a few years ago yall visited family out west if I recall correctly. Any thoughts about leaving the city?

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## Cliff Booth

> I'm also skeptical about the antibiotic. Viruses don't usually respond to antibiotics and their overuse is one of the reasons we're in this mess anyway.
> 
> You know who will be hurt by this? Small businesses. Amazon, Walmart, and Wells Fargo won't go down. If it looks bad for them, they'll be bailed out.
> 
> That woman who died in isolation? I wonder if anybody was there helping get or if they were all quarantined or social distancing. It's not the socialized medicine that killed her.
> 
> There was a post on the statistics Reddit about s project yo predict when 90% of the world population  will have been touched by a personal tragedy because of the virus. It occurred to me that, at this time, I don't know (personally) a single person who has been diagnosed with vthe virus, but my whole generation before me was taken out by cigarettes. Priorities.


Overuse of antibiotics is a very serious problem but is not in any way related to this zoonotic virus. 


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## Cliff Booth

> @WVZ....For me it's a no brainer. If I am facing certain death without the drugs or a shot at recovery with them, I am going for that shot. I'll take any chance no matter how low if it gives me a chance of recovery.
> 
> Of course we are all different but I hope the decision of having a shot at life is left to us not some govt. people.


If you are facing certain death it might be too late. Its my understanding that it doesnt actually kill the virus, just stops it from replicating. So youd preferably want to get on it fairly soon when your symptoms started getting severe. 


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## Rick

This is what I'm shooting for this month. Crash will probably win. Yeah, I have low self-esteem. 

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## Rick

I think I have a plan worked out. In place of a C95 mask, I'm going to use the hong. That should kill any and all life forms, terrestrial or alien AND it should ensure social distancing. I just love it when a plan comes together. That's a win/win. Well, for me.

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## WolfVanZandt

Benesse, in that case maybe, but I would bwant better information than what's on the Internet. Are you in a high risk group?

Cliff, why do you think that?

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## Cliff Booth

> Benesse, in that case maybe, but I would bwant better information than what's on the Internet. Are you in a high risk group?
> 
> Cliff, why do you think that?


Think what?


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## nell67

> I think I have a plan worked out. In place of a C95 mask, I'm going to use the hong. _That should kill any and all life forms_, terrestrial or alien AND it should ensure social distancing. I just love it when a plan comes together. That's a win/win. Well, for me.


 Are you saying that you are not a life form, or is not self detrimental?

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## WolfVanZandt

Actually, I know how you know. That was a dumb thing I said about the virus resulting from a misuse of antibiotics

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## crashdive123

Worth a watch/listen.  https://www.doctoroz.com/episode/bre...=6144038054001

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> I think I have a plan worked out. In place of a C95 mask, I'm going to use the hong. That should kill any and all life forms, terrestrial or alien AND it should ensure social distancing. I just love it when a plan comes together. That's a win/win. Well, for me.


I think that probably has the potential to start a new epidemic of some sort...

Alan

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## madmax

Well I just lost breakfast.

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## LowKey

I think this guy is competing with Rick and his hong.
Screen Shot 2020-03-24 at 10.21.50 AM.jpg

I just got riffed this morning. All Massachusetts "non-essential" business have been shut down. Taking 2 week vacay then possibly unemployment depending on how long this lasts. This is far far worse than the crash in 2008. At least then we could still work, with work-sharing, and were still getting a 4 day paycheck. Wonder if the local grocery is hiring.

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## rebel

I read that 30% unemployment is possible for the second quarter. Might have to consider extended families. Like the Waltons.

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## BENESSE

The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent virus threat and have therefore raised their threat level from  "Miffed" to "Peeved." 
Soon, though, level may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross." The English have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out. The virus has been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued "A Bloody Nuisance" warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada. The Scotts have raised their threat level from "Pissed Off" to "Let's Get the Bastard." They don't have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years. 

They are all in my thoughts and prayers.

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## BENESSE

> I think I have a plan worked out. In place of a C95 mask, I'm going to use the hong. *That should kill any and all life forms*, terrestrial or alien AND it should ensure social distancing. I just love it when a plan comes together. That's a win/win. Well, for me.


This time it might kill you too. We all barely survived as it was.

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## rebel

We got you B.  Cmon down to the south. We grow year around.

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## rebel

Going to get real ugly, thousands of NYPD are out sick.

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## BENESSE



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## Cliff Booth

Still way too many people in denial. Were not China. Were not Italy. Were not Spain. Were not NYC. 

We are a big country and certain areas likely wont feel much from this at all for awhile. But most of the areas that arent in bad shape are just earlier in the timeline. I wished wed just rip off the bandaid and do a 2 week shutdown nation wide. A lot of people do not seem to be taking these local measures very seriously. 


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## Rick

You are going to have to be quarantined but you have a choice. A. You can be quarantined with your wife and kids or B.... 

B. I'll take B. Definitely B.

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## WolfVanZandt

Get out the bored games.

 :Smile:

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## rebel

I havent been bored. I planted 200 olive trees this week. 100 to go. Planted onions this morning. I need to prep for more garden space for squash, cucumbers and beans.

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## Cliff Booth

https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion...aba-story.html


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## Rick

While I'm stuck at home I've decide to start working out. I've decided to start doing sit ups. I did a half of one when I got up this morning and I'll finish it when i go to bed tonight. Gotta start somewhere.

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## BENESSE

> Get out the bored games.


Bored, who's bored?!
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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Welcome to Earth, Virus Fighter!

My nephew's wife, COVID-19 assessment unit Midland Hospital.

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Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

I'm not going to say anything about people with too much time on their hands. We all have plenty of time on our hands now.

I have a good hobby, though, people on the trail are taking the "social distancing" thing to heart.

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## madmax

> While I'm stuck at home I've decide to start working out. I've decided to start doing sit ups. I did a half of one when I got up this morning and I'll finish it when i go to bed tonight. Gotta start somewhere.


  I get out of my lounger at least twice a day to pee.

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## Rick

My Lazy Boy is electric so I can't claim it. Of course I do have to reach for the button so there's that.

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## randyt

I'm essential services, first time in my career

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## Rick

Me too. I keep the mailman, the water dept., the sewer dept, the power company and the sandman employed.

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## LowKey

I'm finding out what retirement might be like. Except for the phone calls from work. Hey, if you didn't need me there, maybe you don't need to be calling me twice an hour either. Hard to tune up the boat motor with the phone always ringing. Sheesh.
I'd be digging up more yard for garden, but we got snow on Monday and it is not melting. Tossed a bag of old crusty potting soil over the main garden that is half prepped for spring planting (the other half in the shade is still a bit soggy.) Maybe that will work to melt it off. Onions seedlings are sitting in the cold frame waiting to go in the ground.

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## rebel

Took a break from planting and tilling. Caught a little bass. Released him. Nice day. The wind is keeping the nats away.

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## BENESSE

> Took a break from planting and tilling. Caught a little bass. Released him. Nice day. The wind is keeping the nats away.


Dang, Reb! Sounds like a distant dream to me. 

Here in the war zone, this is how we keep ourselves busy indoors (compliments of Mr. B):

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## Rick

If anyone mentions housework, chores or yardwork  during this quarantine, may I direct you to the President's 15 day guidelines. None of those items are listed. Be an American. Follow the rules!

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## BENESSE

I am!

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## rebel

Me too. At my happy place. C8DB3626-A5CC-4A66-9FEF-E65C885375A2.jpg

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## rebel

Dang, we surpassed the other countrys in confirmed cases. Something aint right.

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## crashdive123

Not too sure you can believe the numbers coming out of some countries.  When China was reporting 1,900 cases a whistle blower said there were over 90,000.  She has not been heard from since.

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## rebel

Thats what I thought about aint right .   


I made the Mrs. a candle light spaghetti dinner. Were enjoying this seclusion. Hope all stay safe and happy.

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## WolfVanZandt

I'm not so sure you can trust the numbers coming out of /this/ country, either.

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## Phaedrus

Well, we'll get through it somehow!  I'm still doin' the work-at-home thing so still getting paid.  Honestly I'd rather be out there doing my job on site but I suppose I am saving some gas (20 miles each way every day).  The governor of MT has pretty much closed down the state except for "essential businesses".  Luckily the natl forests and state parks will still be open so there's that.  If the weather is decent I'm going to go up to Ousel Falls Park, just past Big Sky, and hike out to the falls.  Just bought some badass hiking crampons since I nearly died attempting the same hike last week! :hammer:  :Lol:

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## madmax

I wash my hands 50 times a day.  I dont go to the store.  I just read that  I was supposed to.  Something kept wafting by my nose in my recliner.  Familiar scent.  Too lazy to get up and search though.  Then it hit me.  Oh yeah.  Rendezvous.  Day 5.  I need a shower.  I dont remember the last time I took my meds either.   My great uncle told me stories of people getting cabin fever in the MN winters (before snowmobiles).  Maybe...

No you cant have my guns.  Kelly's laid claim to all but the AR's.  And she really hates the pistol.

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## rebel

I took a LOA. I dont go back until mid May. Yahoo! Im lovin the time off. A chance to get some stuff done. I like seeing the steam fog coming off the pond as the sun rises. Watching the wildlife. Digging in the dirt. Feeling a breeze.

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## madmax

> I took a LOA. I dont go back until mid May. Yahoo! Im lovin the time off. A chance to get some stuff done. I like seeing the steam fog coming off the pond as the sun rises. Watching the wildlife. Digging in the dirt. Feeling a breeze.


are you naked?

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## rebel

> are you naked?


Almost. Shorts and a t-shirt.

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## madmax

Well.  The police havent been here in awhile.  And they kinda like me

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## kyratshooter

I had to push the reset button today and go to the store.

Years of planning, years of buying and I still did not think of everything I would need in a bug in.

So while I was out anyway best I buy food and such.

Walmart was as packed as normal and the people as intrusive as ever, walking right up on you, getting into hugging distance and looking at you like you are crazy for backing away.

I am under the opinion now, after seeing all the people out and about in spite of the "shutdown", that we might need a good plague to thin out the heard.  Going to a Walmart in rural Kentucky does not improve your outlook on the future of society.

I am now set for an indefinite period but this "one last trip" might have been the one that gets me.  Peak is expected to be mid-April and that puts the highest infection level at right now!  Lots of people roaming around, feeling fine and spreading plague.

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## Rick

I'm in for the long haul. I just put a blackberry cobbler in the oven. I'm about to run out of milk but I still have whey milk in reserve. Yeah, I know, but still.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Well, another option is to just go ahead and get it and play your hand.  

It's not a good option, ....

Alan

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## Rick

Yeah, my funeral is pre-planned so that could work.

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## BushCraftPilot

well this probably the longest forum thread i've ever seen

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## Rick

We are nothing if not informative.

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## crashdive123

> well this probably the longest forum thread i've ever seen


Pffffft.  We've got threads with thousands of responses.

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## BushCraftPilot

> We are nothing if not informative.


yes thats what ive come to find out hehe

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## madmax

Well krat.  I have a log I make notes in on camps, river trips, road trips, and vous'.  Age and such.

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## Rick

ripeness, rankness, length of beards, etc.

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## kyratshooter

Well I did do some thinking before I went out.

First, we have had no reported cases in my county.  15 spread in the three counties to the north but they are family clusters, all 25-30 miles away.

Second, there are no cases hospitalized in my area, meaning the hospitals are not now overloaded and if I do come down with this stuff and have to be hospitalized the resources are relatively unstressed. If I put the trip off it might be forced on me at a latter time when infection on going out was guarenteed. 

 I did not know about that expected peak thing when I walked through the equal to a Bombay sewer yesterday.

Third was that I needed the stuff I bought to ride out the long term.  Long term prepper supplies that I suddenly realized I had not stockpiled due to them not being on my list for some stupid reason.  Really made me feel foolish to have to take a risk for something I should have remembered long ago.

I did learn one thing though, as long as there is a Walmart, Costco, Sams Club or Kroger open there will be people out shopping just to go somewhere.  People are not going to isolate until they are fined $$$ or shot for being out or gathering in groups.

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## madmax

So... do I eat the specks or bleach them first?

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## Rick

We hear a lot about using fish medicines for human consumption. A couple in Illinois used Chloroquine phosphate, the malaria drug and a drug used in aquarium fish tanks, to self medicate for coronavirus. He died and she was hospitalized. They were afraid of getting sick so they mixed it in their food. Within 20 minutes, both were extremely ill. Let's be smart.

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## madmax

Really Rick.  You of all people should recognize sarcasm.

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## Rick

I do. All I have to do is look in the mirror.

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## WolfVanZandt

No sarcasm...in survival situations, there are veterinary medicines that you can take....if you know what you're doing.

Of course, not knowing what you're doing is contrary to survival.

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## Rick

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## hayshaker

hey rick you can have my shot if you wish.

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## Rick

If they had a vaccine I promise you I'd be in line to take it!

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## hayshaker

were all infected
rick grimes

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## rebel

http://kingworldnews.com/greyerz-jus...t-6-12-months/

Pretty bad outlook. If true, Id forget gold and get land. You can grow enough on an acre for a family of four.

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## Rick

All the gloom and doomers are coming out of the wood work again. Where have they been the last three years? This is not a financial crisis. The banks have good liquidity and we'll recovery nicely once this pandemic is behind us in a month or two.

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## madmax

Yeah one of the concerns should be mental health
  Watching too much TV and scrolling through the internet teteotwawki tellers doesn't help you or your household
  Assuming of course some prep has been done.

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## rebel

Had to go to Lowes this morning for plumbing supplies. That was the first time I have been out in town for a couple of weeks. People seem to be more polite.

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## BENESSE

We're gonna be fine if we follow the guidelines and until a vaccine becomes available. It's the best thing we've got so far. AND we can see what worked in China & South Korea even if we take what the Chinese are saying with a grain of salt. The best way to deal with this virus is to keep from getting it in the first place. 

Our economy was strong and healthy before all this and on the way to getting stronger. If anything, perhaps what'll come out of all this is that we'll get back some manufacturing and production of vital supplies back in the US where it should have been in the first place. Look what a difference energy independence has made. 

I am hopeful based on the whole picture and based on history. And grateful to live in the US of all places.

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## Rick

Amen. What she said.

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## chiggersngrits

Today was my last day of work. The ADA shut down all the Dentist a few weeks ago and we have been laying off for 2 weeks. Out of 400 employees we were down to 20 today and have run through all remaining work. It is going to be a weird feeling tomorrow morning not going in. I have only taking a whole weeks vacation once since 1982.

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## Cliff Booth

I worry that when the dust settles we are going to see a bunch of our older physicians retire and there wont be nearly enough docs to fill the void. Going to lead to NPs and PAs probably taking on a lot more than they should. 


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## crashdive123

> I worry that when the dust settles we are going to see a bunch of our older physicians retire and there wont be nearly enough docs to fill the void. Going to lead to NPs and PAs probably taking on a lot more than they should. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I disagree.  I think your fears are unfounded.

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## LowKey

This just pulled into NYC harbor. Majestic, and possibly terrifying.
Docking manuever starts around the 19minute mark.
Watch in double speed.
https://youtu.be/4_u7ps25UDQ
can't get the video to embed. USNS _Comfort_ Hospital ship.

I got a kick outta some guy on a gardening channel describing how he was going to plow up a raw half acre and plant it for food this summer. Yeah. Good luck with that.
I'm wondering if people are going to steal my stuff this year, on top of all the other wild life out there eating it.
Hopefully they don't devolve into that.

I did see an older couple out going through people's trash this morning looking for bottles and cans. They had found a jackpot and were loading the trunk. Struck me as desperate. Last thing I'd want to do right now is go through other people's trash. Help em out. If you don't want to go to the bottle return, at least put them in a bag off to the side. They'll vanish soon enough.

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## BENESSE

@Cliff Booth
Assuming you are right (I don't think so), we will just import them through "targeted" immigration. Something we should be doing anyway. Give precedence to people who can contribute to the economy instead of being a drag on the rest of us. 
There are a lot of foreign students currently in US med schools who would probably love a chance to have their visa changed to "permanent resident" so they can remain and work here. I would allow it providing they go where there's most need. 

So, no, I am not concerned that there'll be a shortage of medical professionals of any stripe. However, I am always concerned that there's a shortagee of honest politicians.

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## Rick

Our governor is allowing the graduating doctors and nurses to begin their practices under the guidance of other professionals. All they lack is their residency. I don't think this pandemic is a threat to the number of health care professionals that we will have in our country. I think it clearly shows to shortage we have and that will drive the price up which will retain and attract more to the field. Maybe I'm wrong but I think we have been trying to get by with as few as we can for a long time now.

I watch the Comfort pull into New York. Truly impressive. Not to make this political but this demonstrates why a capitalistic economy excels. 

In other news...I don't buy into not wearing a mask when out and about. If a mask works in a medical setting it da@m well works in public setting. The mask doesn't know the difference. Wear one even if it is a bandana or a scarf. Put something between your face and the public.

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## kyratshooter

Anyone here actually know anyone that is sick?

I mean other than a case reported on TV or the nephew's girlfriend's distant cousin?

There are about a dozen of us in this conversation and I was just wondering if after all these weeks it has closed in on anyone.

I don't want to be callous, but the anticipated 200,000 deaths is only .005% of the total population.  Yes I know every life counts and the death of one .....

But how many sick are among us so far?

And Rick I must say that the "public" thanks you for any barrier between your face and them!

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## Rick

Sadly, I do. She's recovering now, thankfully. I think that will increase in the next few weeks as the numbers increase. I think there are a lot more folks out there with the virus but just haven't been tested. 

I consider it my civic duty to do anything I can to assist. I did have a cop caution me that I should wear pants from now on. I told him it was all part of my social distancing plan. He told me it seemed to be working.

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## BENESSE

> In other news...I don't buy into not wearing a mask when out and about. If a mask works in a medical setting it da@m well works in public setting. The mask doesn't know the difference. Wear one even if it is a bandana or a scarf. Put something between your face and the public.


I believed in masks for everyone from day one and was given a lot of flack for it by my NY friends who were obviously drinking the Govt. CoolAid. Turns out, the tide is finally shifting in favor. How something so obvious was even in question is truly baffling. 

Tucker Carlson last night said it perfectly and the portion about masks starts at 01:50. I _so_ shared his outrage.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tuck...sks-stop-lying

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## crashdive123

I believe that there are many, many people that have contracted it and were not diagnosed.  Either before testing began, or just thought they had a bug and rode it out.

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## Rick

I've heard that coffee filters can be used for toilet paper but it will change the taste of the coffee. Just a helpful tip.

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## crashdive123

Vegan toilet paper.


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## BENESSE

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## Rick

That's pretty good, Crash. But I think that's just the tip of the iceberg. The rest romaines to be seen.

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## grokh5499

Hi everyone! I've come back after a long long break. Life takes its twits and turns and turned me back here.  :Big Grin:  Hope everyone is still doing good.  

Unfortunately I'm considered mission essential at my "mission essential" job. We are a Lowes vendor, we sell metal roofing. My boss and his wife made masks last weekend for the entire plant-both shifts (I'm pretty sure they made them for all the office people too - hard to tell because not everyone is wearing them, or wearing them correctly. Some people have them below their chins, on their foreheads, on the bills of their hats. Typical, I  know.  I got funny looks last week when I was wearing a bandana. Now most everyone is wearing something. 

We are only supposed to have one person in the multi-stall restrooms at a time. They have a hospital grade disinfectant for spraying before and after yourself. There are 17 females that are still working at the office. Most of them already use the single stall restroom not far from my desk. About 7-9 of us use the large restroom. That means the 9 or so of us have 4 stalls to choose from. I know at least 3-4 of them use the ones farthest back.When I'm done I spray both sinks, both soap dispensers, the the door knob for exiting the restroom, the stall door knob, toilet handle and seat.  I wonder if anyone else is sanitizing behind or before themselves at all? And I am amazed at the number of people that are so nonchalant about this. I would hate to be a carrier and not know I had even been exposed and get someone sick that is in a high risk category. 

I am thinking of starting up a blog to do a running diary of this but haven't decided if I'm going to or not.

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## crashdive123

> That's pretty good, Crash. But I think that's just the tip of the iceberg. The rest romaines to be seen.


I see what you did there.  Lettuce hope it doesn't come to that.

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## Rick

Leaf it to you. You ain't no butterhead. 




> We are only supposed to have one person in the multi-stall restrooms at a time.




I would think that's a whole lot better that multiple people in the single stall restroom at a time. Just sayin'.

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## madmax

> Leaf it to you. You ain't no butterhead. 
> 
> 
> 
> I would think that's a whole lot better that multiple people in the single stall restroom at a time. Just sayin'.


That just sent my mind reeling.  The visual is something I'll never get over

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## Rick

Just trying to keep things in perspective. Like...I think modern medicine has done away with Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Consider the fact that during a respiratory pandemic folks hoarded toilet paper. Think about that for a moment. Back in the day if a Saber Tooth Tiger attack a man and he decided to defend himself with...oh, say...a flower then nature took care of that bad decision. It turned him into tiger poop, albeit it with pretty flower petals but still. Today medicine keeps those bad decisions alive. I'm convinced if we ever get hit with a diarrhea pandemic there will be a rush on nasal spray.

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## nell67

I do not know anyone who has tested positive, yet.

My daughter works IT at UofL, she was working for Jewish, but UofL bought them out. She is in charge of all the "COWS" Computers on wheels that get moved from room to room. She is scared to death that she has been exposed because she has to go to isolation rooms, and the ER. 

The hospital has set up their COVID-19 isolation ward, on the east wing of the floor her office is on. Last week, a patient left the isolation wing, and came down the west wing where the pharmacy and psychologist office as well as all the IT offices are. he walked right into the office of one of the other IT people. After the directed her back to her floor and reported her t the nurses, that guy blew up over the fact she was allowed to exit that wing. 

 Later that same day, that same patient was seen by pharmacy staff exiting the employee restroom on the west wing, again employees on the west wing had a major meltdown.

Yesterday, The IT people found out that infection control had visited their wing, and ordered the pharmacy and psychologist office moved to another floor. But nothing was said to, or about the IT personnel. That didn't go over well. and none of the IT can be tested to see f they were exposed, unless they start showing symptoms.

Norton Healthcare, and Baptist Health both have many nurses and other employees in quarantine because they were exposed, and Norton had 39 I believe who have tested positive. The Hospital in Seymour Indiana has many hospital staff in quarantine and several positives.

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## nell67

> I believe that there are many, many people that have contracted it and were not diagnosed.  Either before testing began, or just thought they had a bug and rode it out.


Yea, back at Thanksgiving, Jade and I both had allergies, or a sinus infection, she got over it but mine dragged on for a while and after using every type of cold and allergy med with no relief.

 I went to urgent care on the 23rd of December. I was told I had pneumonia in my right lung. No testing, no x rays, just a diagnosis and prescriptions. If you have had the 'flu shot, they won't test you for the 'flu, although my symptoms were were all respiratory, and extreme fatigue.   Just have to wonder if "IT" was here id December and we didn't know because it really hadn't been identified yet. Or had it?

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## madmax

Anybody else have a hypochondriac in the family that thinks they have the kung flu... then goes out for hours?

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## Cliff Booth

> Yea, back at Thanksgiving, Jade and I both had allergies, or a sinus infection, she got over it but mine dragged on for a while and after using every type of cold and allergy med with no relief.
> 
>  I went to urgent care on the 23rd of December. I was told I had pneumonia in my right lung. No testing, no x rays, just a diagnosis and prescriptions. If you have had the 'flu shot, they won't test you for the 'flu, although my symptoms were were all respiratory, and extreme fatigue.   Just have to wonder if "IT" was here id December and we didn't know because it really hadn't been identified yet. Or had it?


Maybe here in December. Highly unlikely it was here around Thanksgiving. I think the established timeline is probably pretty close to accurate. The growth models closely align. 


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## Cliff Booth

> Today was my last day of work. The ADA shut down all the Dentist a few weeks ago and we have been laying off for 2 weeks. Out of 400 employees we were down to 20 today and have run through all remaining work. It is going to be a weird feeling tomorrow morning not going in. I have only taking a whole weeks vacation once since 1982.


Are you a dentist or do you provide a service for dentists?  Just interested due to the 400 employees. 


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## BushCraftPilot

> Anybody else have a hypochondriac in the family that thinks they have the kung flu... then goes out for hours?


my brother's diabetic

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## madmax

So he's not a hypochondriac.  What's the deal with your respons

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## crashdive123

> So he's not a hypochondriac.  What's the deal with your respons


He's 14.......

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## grokh5499

> Leaf it to you. You ain't no butterhead. 
> 
> 
> I would think that's a whole lot better that multiple people in the single stall restroom at a time. Just sayin'.



Ha ha! That helped me feel better- I needed that laugh!

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## Rick

See? Things could be worse.  :Stuart:

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## BENESSE

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## Rick

That made me smile.

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## Phaedrus

BENESSE!  :Lol:

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

TMI


Alan

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## Rick

Alan - Please accept my condolences on your loss. You and your wife have been through an ordeal and and now she has lost her father to this terrible disease. You and your family will be in my prayers. I am glad that the two of you are feeling better.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Thanks Rick.  

Alan

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## crashdive123

Alan - so sorry for your loss.  Hope you and your wife recover completely an quickly.

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## WolfVanZandt

That's a bad thing on top of everything else. Stay well. I hope things get better for you all. You're in my prayers

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I just read about the Convalescent Plasma donation thing.

Alan

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## rebel

Sorry for your loss.

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## Phaedrus

I'm so sorry for your loss, Alan!  Smoke sent for your and your wife.

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## Rick

Alan - I've read that you can donate 28 days after contracting the disease or after the second confirmed negative test. It will be interesting to find out what the South Texas Center tells you. Please keep us informed as this could help a lot of folks.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

They probably won't answer until tomorrow.  Their website says they are going to try to be accepting donations early next week. if it's 28 days then I likely have a ways to go before I can donate.  Certainly don't want to donate too early!  But I will report what they tell me, hopefully tomorrow.

Alan

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## Rick

Here's a write up from Versiti Blood Center: 

"Versiti blood centers, among the first in the U.S. to begin collecting convalescent plasma, is working with its partner hospitals to identify recovered patients. As per the guidelines, hospitals must request FDA approval and work within the EIND guidelines, or other approved IND, in order to treat coronavirus patients with plasma. Donors would be referred to Versiti through hospitals, or the recovered patients' physicians."*The potential donors must first be proven to have had a COVID-19 diagnosis through a positive lab test result, and must then have a negative test result 14 days after recovering from symptoms*," said Versiti Senior Medical Director Dan A. Waxman, M.D. "It's a very collaborative effort with our hospital partners who will be working to identify and verify the donors." (emphasis is mine)

https://www.ptcommunity.com/wire/con...id-19-patients

That's different from what I read earlier and may be their own requirements. Good luck, Alan.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

They are saying that there are up to 50% of the cases that show NO symptoms at all.  I'm not sure this is different from any other disease but this one has infected out psyches as well as our bodies and has ramped psychosis to new heights.  

Even though I still believe much of the Hype was exactly that, I also believe that some good has come from it.  It has raised our awareness on many fronts.  
1. Even a little old flu bug can rampage across the Earth in an Historical blink of the eye.
2. We are unprepared to deal with that eventuality. Those who would wish us ill, now have seen first hand our vulnerabilities.
3. We are WAY to dependent on China and other countries for the things we use every day and certainly those thing we will need in an emergency.
4. Vendors need to VOLUNTARILY have some protocols in place to limit purchases of essential products like disinfectants early on to keep the profiteers and hoarders from creating shortages at a time when they are needed the most.
5. Governments (Fed, State and local) should actively prepare, replace and stockpile (if we can stockpile the amount of paper used up in a hoax impeachment, we can surely stockpile some face masks. Those will actually be needed) those items that are needed in this sort of crisis.  (ie. New York opting NOT to replace 17,000 ventilators that should have been replaced after the last epidemic).

And there's probably more.

Alan

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## BENESSE

Alan, belated condoleneces and prayers for a quick and complete recovery. I am sorry you were burdened with more than your share when the times are already difficult. May what's ahead make up for what we leave behind.

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## BENESSE

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## Rick

It looks like cats can catch corona virus...(I knew the little devils were out to get us!) Dogs are cool, though. 

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coro...virus/2360876/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00984-8

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## BENESSE

> It looks like cats can catch corona virus...(I knew the little devils were out to get us!) Dogs are cool, though.


Im wearing a mask so no worries.  :Whistling:

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## BENESSE

ITALIAN MAYORS--TCB & Kicking A$$. Our mayors can learn something from them instead ow waiting for the state and fed govt. to tell them what to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxtGJsnLgSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYPPTXUIY2U

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## Rick

A flamethrower. I love it. That would get the message across! We need that attitude over here. The governor of Georgia just opened the beaches!!!! How dumb do you have to be? Someone should pelt him with peaches!!!!

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## WolfVanZandt

Some of the states are trying to ignore the feds (Trump) and control the spread of the virus, but then Trump withholdings aid.

On the other hand, my son's-in-law family is from Italy. You don't want the US to be like Italy. Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.

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## BENESSE

> You don't want the US to be like Italy. Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.


Hardly any danger of that any time soon. But "we" could definitely use more straight talk especially at a time like this. Why we have to coddle people and prevaricate is beyond me. 

Case in point, hot off the press: *NYC to begin temporarily burying corona victims in local parks.* If that's not serious I don't know what is.. An

https://nypost.com/2020/04/06/nyc-to...5221-720512843

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## WolfVanZandt

We could definitely use some strong citizen activism.

You should, though, understand that NY is a special case. Just a cursory glance at the statistics that compare states shows that. The population density (my past harping on overpopulation that people don't believe is happening) and the fact that NY State ticked our POTUS (who is obviously rather vindictive) off are two big factors.

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## BENESSE

Wolf VZ, I agree with you. I am mostly mad at NYC govt. and residents for not being more responsible. A close friend who lives nearby has been in denial herself, refusing to educate herself and understand what's at stake. Here in NYC and now. If someone in WY is in denial, they can afford to be. We can't. 

What we are dealing with is different from say, people who engage in bad habits that are lethal for their health. Their body, their choice, their gamble. Covid 19 is contagious to everyone and stretches the resources we do not have. Now it's no longer about individual choice...unless that choice is to stay home.

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye, a quicker response would have saved a lot of lives.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Got this today. Matches what Rick posted earlier.

"Thank you for contacting STBTC about convalescent plasma donations.  The regulatory requirement directed to blood centers, for now, is only patients that have documentation of a positive COVID-19 test result qualifies for convalescent plasma donations.  We are required to have documentation for a positive test result and then a negative test result for COVID-19 post 14 days from a patient's last symptom in order to be qualified to donate plasma." 


Alan

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## edr730

Sites to help with the math.
https://www.indexmundi.com/clocks/in.../united-states  daily total US deaths for all causes in real time
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/     daily covid19 deaths in all countries    
https://www.macrotrends.net/countrie...tes/death-rate    interactive chart to find deaths for various years

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## BENESSE

At least no one is going to blame you for taking away supplies intended for those on the front lines.

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## BENESSE

I know that no one on this forum is capable of being bored. But for some of us stuck inside, this is gold.

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## Cliff Booth

> Wolf VZ, I agree with you. I am mostly mad at NYC govt. and residents for not being more responsible. A close friend who lives nearby has been in denial herself, refusing to educate herself and understand what's at stake. Here in NYC and now. If someone in WY is in denial, they can afford to be. We can't. 
> 
> What we are dealing with is different from say, people who engage in bad habits that are lethal for their health. Their body, their choice, their gamble. Covid 19 is contagious to everyone and stretches the resources we do not have. Now it's no longer about individual choice...unless that choice is to stay home.


NY leadership was encouraging people to get out and have fun even into March. Colossal failure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## BENESSE

Yes, quite a colossal failure, which of course, they are all conveniently forgetting. Thank God it's all on tape and thanks to Hannity, it does get some airing here and there. Unfortunately, Hannity is preaching to the choir so those who need to see it, aren't.

When Trump suspended travel from China is when I kicked into higher gear with preps and by the end of February I was on full alert...due to the fact that I can read.

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## crashdive123

Sadly, much of the advice that was given was ignored because of the source, which was purely a political decision IMO.  Those decisions should cost those leaders their jobs.

Additionally a lot of the advice was given with the best intentions with the information that was available at the time.  Dr. Fauci has become the face of reason for many.  Just in case you missed it.......as late as January 21st he didn't think CV was going to be a problem for the United States.  Just ten days later Trump shut down travel from China (and was widely criticized for it).  Here was Dr. Fauci on the 21st.   https://saraacarter.com/jan-flashbac...united-states/

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## Rick

Honest to Pete, how smart do you have to be to figure out a face mask? Some of our elected officials seem to have a great deal of difficulty figuring it out. It's not COVID-19 science. You see plenty of news outlets mocking the Pres but no one bothered to mock the Senator. Interesting. 

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## crashdive123

Went to the Navy Exchange today to pick up a few things.  You cannot enter unless you are wearing a face mask.  Seems reasonable to me.

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## rebel

Saw it coming in January. The Practioner Mrs. said no way. Well....

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

All the masks and gloves and bubble suits are fine, but I think the way we're going to beat this thing is to go into it healthy.  It seems like it's slowing a bit but as soon as the guard drops we will see a resurgence.  

You better eat your fruits and vegetables and drink all your milk.  

I do know one thing though and that is:

China needs to pay for this.  We need to absolve any debt we have with them to pay for the trillions of dollars this is costing us.  They aren't even trying to rectify the situation.  They are continuing to operate in probably the most unsanitary conditions possible and then continue to lie about and hide the dire problems THEY have visited on the rest of the World.  Their Communist system has failed, failed their people and imperiled the human population of the Earth.  They should pay for that. 

It boggles my mind that one of the oldest if not THE oldest civilization on Earth cannot raise their people out of "Cave Man" status.

Alan

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## Rick

We (read that any way you want) blocked further stimulus to small business this week and now someone wants to sent 5 billion in aid to Iran. I'm all for humanitarian aid but can't they at least stop attacking us first?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...g-iraq-attacks

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## rebel

Could another war come from this? Smells like pre-WWII.

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## madmax

I agree with Alan.  Healthy is the best defense against the virus.  I believe everyone in the USA will eventually get it.  In one form or another.  Hopefully they'll come up with good treatments and vaccine for the high risk people

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## rebel

http://www.rt.com/usa/485572-michiga...n-coronavirus/

Some of the seed companies are restricting purchase to only commercial businesses.

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, Alan, I guess I'm next, but if this is the Corona virus, I've had a lot worse. The worse thing is my achin' back from laying on it all day. But I'll be here a while. My housemates are disinfecting everything behind me. I thank them for all the work. I guess as each one of them gets it I'll return the favor

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

There will come a time when you start to feel better. Watch out. It's a trick. After that it should be okay. 

Alan

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## BENESSE

> http://www.rt.com/usa/485572-michiga...n-coronavirus/
> 
> Some of the seed companies are restricting purchase to only commercial businesses.


This baffles my mind. (of course, liquor stores are deemed essiantial)

Just another bad decision by Gov. halfWhitmer (aptly renamed by Trump). AND she is being considered for Biden's VP along a few other female loosers. Klobuchar should have been considered but then I remind myself that I don't really care.

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## WolfVanZandt

LOL. Yeah, I know about the second wave. Thanks for the warning, though.

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## LowKey

Psst... you can buy seeds online....then the state doesn't even get the meager tax revenue.

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## rebel

Not at some seed places like Johnnys seed

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## LowKey

Go elsewhere. I haven't bought from Johnnys (or Burpees) in ages.

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## rebel

It wasnt about me finding seed. Just sayin something aint right.

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## LowKey

Yeah, that Governor ain't right...in the head.

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## BENESSE

He fell out of favor with me ever since Trump got elected, but on this, he is SO right. I am glad a liberal is speaking out _for once_ about something that needs to be said. And it's what normal, reasonable people think anyway.

<font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: verdana">

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## WolfVanZandt

No, I wouldn't bet on it.

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## Rick

That does pretty much sum it up. Thanks for posting that.

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## Rick

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## Rick

Another three minutes and I think I'm sterile. Wait, I mean...the virus is gone. Yeah, virus free. That's what I meant. 

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## aflineman

After they said all last week we were doing well, and on track for opening this month. Now we are not reopening the State until July 6th. County reopened the Court House last week. Same rules as Walmart and Costco. State is trying to tell them to shut down again. We shall see. I don't know of a single closed business who will still be able to reopen come July 6th.

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## WolfVanZandt

Colorado has been tentative about reopening. They set a date to reopen /if/ they feel that we've made enough progress. Unfortunately, I suspect they're being way too optimistic. They're waiting out 1) a vaccine that won't happen for, at the very best, a year, and 2) from medical services to catch up with the burgeoning case load...and they just aren't doing it.

I'm worried that they're going to run out of time and have to go the "run it's course" route and everyone is going to be so mad at the government for leading them on so long that there will be violence.

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## crashdive123

Maybe they'll open up when suicides out number CV deaths in the state.

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## Phaedrus

So far the tests are vaporware, we're really no closer to having enough tests than we were in Feb.  Any attempts to return to some semblance of normality without broad testing capacity won't work.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Our part of Texas is like rats being let out of a cage.  

New Orleans is just as busy as ever, about 25% of the people wearing masks but everyone is doing the SD thing to some degree. 

We'll see how "Herd Immunity" thing works.

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, I think it will be disastrous but I'm suspect that there's a real chance it will happen anyway. If that's true, then our best bet is the opposite of isolation... it's to learn how to deal with the virus at home and home nursing is a lost art.

But it is part of survival techniques...right?

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## Rick

Wow, sorry Phaedrus. I'm sorry you guys are short on testing. We have all sorts of testing going on in our state and more expanding all the time. We are lucky that we do have several top rated universities in our state and several big pharma labs that have all volunteered access. Maybe that's a difference, I don't know. That said, we have many sites throughout the state where drive through testing can be done as well. One hundred I think.

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## Phaedrus

Weirdly we have one of the top science and tech universities around but no tests.  I'd say we have a fairly low amount of cases here but honestly no one really knows how many there are.  We have a relatively low amount of deaths but of course, the biggest city in your state has almost as many people as my state.  A big, nearly empty state does help slow the spread.

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## Rick

I went to the grocery store and when it came time to check out they had this big X on the floor where I was supposed to stand. No way. I've seen way too many roadrunner cartoons to fall for that one.

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## kyratshooter

Our  new governor declared and executive order Monday that prohibited travel from, to, or through KY without a 14 day quarantine.  He has gone power mad in a fresh faced, ivy league frat-boy, giggly sort of way.

It was struck down by a federal judge today.  Apparently it would require the passengers of any airplane landing in KY to be incarcerated for 14 days, and no one could move through the state even if they did not get out of their vehicle. 

You can easily travel through KY north to south in less than 4 hours, on I-24 in less than 3 hours and most vehicles do not even require a fuel stop.

The judge declared the order violated every constitutional statute regarding freedom of movement ever written and carried criminal civil rights penalties.

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## Rick

There are a few states I'm glad I don't live in right now. Some of them border mine. Seems the governors are playing kick the can with their brains.

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## madmax

I like our governor.  So does Trump.

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## Rick

Me too, Mine too.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> Our  new governor declared and executive order Monday that prohibited travel from, to, or through KY without a 14 day quarantine.  He has gone power mad in a fresh faced, ivy league frat-boy, giggly sort of way.
> 
> It was struck down by a federal judge today.  Apparently it would require the passengers of any airplane landing in KY to be incarcerated for 14 days, and no one could move through the state even if they did not get out of their vehicle. 
> 
> You can easily travel through KY north to south in less than 4 hours, on I-24 in less than 3 hours and most vehicles do not even require a fuel stop.
> 
> The judge declared the order violated every constitutional statute regarding freedom of movement ever written and carried criminal civil rights penalties.


We had that mandatory 14 day quarantine going on too.  But only from specific states, Louisiana being one of them.  It began in mid April and was lifted last Friday.  Travelers from LA had to self quarantine in a location of their choice for 14 days or until they left Texas.  Agents from the DPS would check on you to make sure you were there.  Fines and/or jail time were the penalties for non-compliance.  

I know I've harped on this before but China really needs to pay for this.  It just keeps getting worse.  Now there's animals with the virus and this new syndrome that kids are getting up to 4 weeks after exposure.  China unleashed this Sh!t on the world.  They need to pay for it, Big Time.


Alan

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## Rick

I try to be objective. I don't know whether this virus came from the wet market or escaped from a biolab. I lean toward the latter. I do believe it's naturally occurring and the Chinese might have been working on it for whatever reason. That said, their lack of transparency, secrecy and lies has caused global suffering. They owe the world a huge debt. What they did to their own people is unconscionable.

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## pete lynch

> I went to the grocery store and when it came time to check out they had this big X on the floor where I was supposed to stand. No way. I've seen way too many roadrunner cartoons to fall for that one.


I bet you were shopping at the ACME market, eh?

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I think the wet market excuse is the same as the Benghazi attack was because of a video. China even tried to blame us for giving it to them. They were working on this thing and somebody left Pandora's box open.  They are reporting no new cases, which is obviously a blatant LIE.

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

Yep
 I guess everyone is lying. Us included. Arkansas and the Dakota's resisted shutting down and they have some of the best outcomes on the Worldometer.

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## Rick

Best outcomes is a bit of a misnomer. If you don't test you don't have much to report. Arkansas has tested 65k. N. Dakota as tested 44K, S. Dakota has tested about 23k. Indiana has tested over 135K. Quite a difference. You also have to look at the geography involved. 

Now look at China. A country of 3.8 billion people only has 100,000 cases. India, about half that. They also have 3.8 billion people. Right. I'll believe that. Sure. While the United States, a country with a population of 328 million has tested almost 9 million and is slammed for having the most infections in the world.

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## WolfVanZandt

Have you ever /tried/ to use an abacus?!

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## WolfVanZandt

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it....huh? no I'm talking about politics.

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## Phaedrus

The US has only tested about 3 to 5% of the population last I saw, so we really have no idea how many cases we have either.

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## LowKey

We need an antibody test that is accurate.
Some people get this thing and never know they had it. All those people can go back to work.

Somehow in this past 2 weeks we went from not needing a mask, to mandatory masks in public or it's a $300 fine. It doesn't seem to be about flattening the curve either as our numbers are going down. It's more about not letting people go back to work.

The other thing that sucks is all the restrooms are closed. Had to travel 160 miles to a job site last week. Got into an argument with a gas station owner telling me I couldn't use the restroom due to Covid. I told him him I was more likely to catch the crabs than catch Covid in his restroom and left for the next wide shoulder on the road. TP. Don't leave home without it.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

It is certainly in the DemocRats favor to keep a heavy thumb on the economy. The American people aren't going to stand for much more though.  I think even the news media is getting tired of reporting on "coronavirus".  They need to be reporting on how we are going to seize all of China's assets to pay for this debacle.

Alan

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## Phaedrus

Dear Leader's lead butt will do the job of keeping the economy down.  This entire mess didn't need to be occur at all.  Given the soup sandwich of a response to this pandemic there's not much chance of getting out of this quickly.

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## Rick

The thing about testing is it's only good for the moment. 30 seconds from now or tomorrow I can become infected. So, if you want to be accurate you have to test everyone on a periodic basis. That's not realistic. We've tested 1.2 million people. I think that's pretty amazing for a little over 2 months for a brand new virus. We've developed a test that is accurate with a quick turn around and tested that many people in 2.5 months. 

My verdict is still out on the antibody test until we figure out how long our natural immunity is to this thing. 

We do need to re-open doing it in a smart way and monitoring the numbers. We can't stay closed forever. People have to live.

And now we have someone calling the response an "absolute chaotic disaster" as if his handling of a serious illness was any better.

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## crashdive123

> Dear Leader's lead butt will do the job of keeping the economy down.  This entire mess didn't need to be occur at all.  Given the soup sandwich of a response to this pandemic there's not much chance of getting out of this quickly.


I'm curious.  What do you think he has done to cause this.  What has he done wrong and what could he have done better?

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## WolfVanZandt

Well that thing about huffing and injecting disinfectant is a rather arclight of a "wrong". What he could have done better is kept his mouth shut and let people that know what they're doing do what they do.

He has kept supplies from the states that counter his commands. Etc.

Several countries were already on it before is and time is a serious issue. Other countries already had tests and were willing to share but we had to develop our own tests.

And I don't know where you're getting that out tests are accurate. There are doctors all over the place saying that they have patients that they're sure has the Covid virus that have had a negative result. From what I've seen, our test had a 30% false negative rate.

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## Rick

This is from John Hopkins. They are not dismissing our testing only recognizing that some false results can occur. I think we all recognize that. 

*What are limitations to COVID-19 diagnostic tests?*

With any diagnostic test, there is the potential for false negatives or false positives. For existing COVID-19 tests in the U.S., there have been reports of false negative tests in some patients. False negative tests can occur if a specimen was not properly obtained or if a patient was tested too early or too late in their infection. Laboratory error is also a possible cause of false negative test results. Conversely, false positive reports are less common.

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## WolfVanZandt

https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/d...e-of-security/

That was just an answer to the test's "accuracy".

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## Rick

Here are some interesting comparisons. Check out China's numbers. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye. There are a lot of numbers in there that looks really sketchy. I'm having problems finding anything I feel I can trust.

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## DSJohnson

> aye. There are a lot of numbers in there that looks really sketchy. I'm having problems finding anything i feel i can trust.


me too......

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## Rick

Check out who they are: 

https://www.worldometers.info/about/

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## WolfVanZandt

Here's their sources.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#news

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## LowKey

I'm sorta in "ok, we flattened the curve. Can we move on now" mode.
So over this crap.

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, we've flattened the curve at between 400 and 2500 new deaths in the US a day. And we aren't really ready for a relapse.

I'm just not so sure that we aren't just putting off the inevitable so I'm not going to say I disagree with you, LowKey. 

Frankly, I don't know because we can't trust any of the information we're getting. For instance, how many people are dying because of the socio-economic backwash. How many communities have been split over surgical masks that do very little good. It's all a balancing act and I'm not so sure we've chosen the right balance.

But I don't have any knobs and levers at my disposal. I look at the people who do and just shake my head. I guess I'm just waiting for the air to clear, or for everything to crash and burn.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...zkL/story.html

We're a survival forum. The "next piece" may well be what puts us through our paces.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I am still of the opinion, that while COVID-19 is a very real thing, it is still being overhyped by the liberal news media for political gain.  Of course the liberal politicians are glad to play along.  

Many of the questions that are coming up from the media are quite simply, unanswerable by a person interested in giving accurate information.  "When will every person in the USA be able to be tested for the virus any time they want to be tested?"  The only real answer is "uh, ... never".  

"Should regular Americans have the same access to tests that the White House Staff that comes in contact with the President?"  What kind of stupidity forms a thought like this our loud?  Why not just ask if regular Americans can fly on AF1 any time they want....

That is what this president has to fight against in addition to a plague.  He has to fight against half the US wanting him out of office and only that and they are using a disease that is killing people to do it, all the while lamenting that "people are dying"... Uh, yeah... and they are that while the DemocRats are fiddling.  

Thanks be to God that we don't have to fight a World War because right now, the DemocRats would be on the side of the enemy for the only reason of getting Trump out of office.  

Some twit on the TV today was saying we need more policy on staying at home, more policy on PPE, more policy on social distancing, more policy, more policy, more policy...... 

More Police State, less freedom, no rights.... Totalitarianism has killed many more people than the Coronavirus...


Alan

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## rebel

> I am still of the opinion, that while COVID-19 is a very real thing, it is still being overhyped by the liberal news media for political gain.  Of course the liberal politicians are glad to play along.  
> 
> Many of the questions that are coming up from the media are quite simply, unanswerable by a person interested in giving accurate information.  "When will every person in the USA be able to be tested for the virus any time they want to be tested?"  The only real answer is "uh, ... never".  
> 
> "Should regular Americans have the same access to tests that the White House Staff that comes in contact with the President?"  What kind of stupidity forms a thought like this our loud?  Why not just ask if regular Americans can fly on AF1 any time they want....
> 
> That is what this president has to fight against in addition to a plague.  He has to fight against half the US wanting him out of office and only that and they are using a disease that is killing people to do it, all the while lamenting that "people are dying"... Uh, yeah... and they are that while the DemocRats are fiddling.  
> 
> Thanks be to God that we don't have to fight a World War because right now, the DemocRats would be on the side of the enemy for the only reason of getting Trump out of office.  
> ...


Thats right

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## Rick

Who would not want the leader of the free world, regardless of who he is, to be tested every day? I have to agree with you Alan, the questions thrown at him are not ignorant, they are intent on malice. They criticized because the President and VP were not being tested and now they criticize because they are. This thing is reeeeeeal simple. If you don't think it's time to open the county...stay home. If you are in a high risk group...stay home. "But I have to go to work." Then apparently YOU value a pay check more than your health and I don't have any empathy for you. If you fear your job that much then go find another job.

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## madmax

I agree with you Rick on everything but that last part.  We'll just disagree on the empathy and the get a new job parts

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, yeah, that paycheck is sorta base line in this society for the survival of a person and his family....die by Covid or did homeless and starving...what a choice!

It ain't that easy to just "find another job."

Furthermore, I agree about the DemocRats (heh, I saw what you did there). I just don't see that much difference (looking at their past records) from the Republicans. If I were a Democrat (I go by the individual, not the party) I surely wouldn't be able to take umbrage about "those lying Republicans" seeing who the DemocRats are trying to place in the White House. Fact is, I don't like being lied to, period. It sorta does something to my ability to trust a person. Throw in sexual misconduct (groping women that don't want to be groped sorta says something about a person's character, but maybe that's just me), corrupt business practices, voting for policy that demonstrably doesn't work over and over...nope, I don't like either of them and I reiterate, ya'll might get to put your survival skills into practice quicker than you expect.

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## BENESSE

The most important part of survival includes critical thinking and using one's brain. Choosing a lesser of two evils when there is no other choice is sometimes the only smart thing left to do. Acting on emotion under the guise of sticking to one's principles is not productive and it's amazing how many people just don't get that even though it's playing out every day.

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## Rick

All I'm saying is you have choices. What you choose to do in this life is in your hands. If you believe that strongly that going to your job puts you at risk then don't go. There was a gentleman in a meat packing plant that did just that. I respect that. There are consequences for not going back to work but there might be consequences for returning, too. The choice is yours. You have to do what you think is best. Just don't cry to me that you don't have any choices. That's all I'm saying. You do have. 


https://www.theindychannel.com/news/...ealth-concerns

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## BENESSE

I agree Rick, that's what I was implying. Choosing a lesser of two evils is still a choice as is choosing a rock over a hard place. Not liking either and blaming someone else for it only makes one a victim.

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## WolfVanZandt

I agree fully with that, Rick. But usually it's not that cut-and-dried. Here in Denver, hiring practices are pretty foul so that people end up losing their jobs just when they have enough seniority to start getting benefits. Colorado is a right-to-hire state. Workers end up in the situation of quickly picking up what they can or joining the sizable homeless population. About a third of the people on the streets here are families and many of them have jobs that don't pay enough for housing.

Our society is built on principles that, over time, have made corrupt practices necessary. In other words, the only way we could make our society one that preserves individual freedoms is to take it apart and rebuild it. And that would be a tall order.

Usually, when people are shorn of basic freedoms, there is a revolution, but that's not historically a good thing. It usually turns out like the French revolution.

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## WolfVanZandt

I will almost guarantee that in the next election, most people will see only two options: Biden and Trump. And most won't like either. The two party system that we have isn't real (physically) but it controls our politics. It's part of the corruption in out system that shouldn't be there.

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## BENESSE

That's how it's always been, WVanZ, it's just that now it seems more toxic because the hate for Trump has eclipsed all reason.

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## WolfVanZandt

The way our voting system is supposed to work, you vote for who you want in an election and the person who gets the most votes wins. What often happens is that people vote for one person do the other won't win.

Why would that work. I've followed Biden and Trump for s long time and, although what they say is different (Biden has really changed his tune....last year) but their behavior over the years...their real positions have not changed and there's very little difference, so there's not really a lesser evil, they're both the same evil. Trump is just more blatant.

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## BENESSE

That's interesting WVanZ because I see them as very different, like night and day different.. I just go by issues and policy. At this point they both have a record regardless of what they said when. "Saying" is one thing, "doing" is quite another. I am not aware of a perfect (all around) candidate so I go with someone most closely aligned with my major issues. That's about all I know to do.

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## Rick

Yeah, night and day. I worry less about what a person says than what they do. Show me, don't tell me.

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## WolfVanZandt

Indeed, and they do the same things. They both support big business and ignore individual rights. They're both for though on crime policies that don't work. They both like private for-profit prisons. They're both anti-abortion at all costs. They've both supported videoed cases of police brutality. And they both think it's alright to sexually assault women. And on and on. They push for the same policies.

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## BENESSE

Virtually all big business was once small business started by hardworking ambitious people. They employ millions and give millions to charity. That's the beauty of this country and that's why more people want to immigrate here than any other country on earth.
Give me big business vs. big government any day.

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## chiggersngrits

Back to work yesterday after being off 33 days. Only about 100 of 400 back, but more coming in everyday as the Dentist offices open up and work comes in. Lots of new safety procedures.

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## WolfVanZandt

Big business and big government go hand in hand. The comparison is big business vs. the well bring of individual Americans. I've taken courses in investment lately. A common practice is to invest in some companies in the hope that they crash and burn. Actually, Trump has done pretty well with that sort of thing. It puts people out of work and other cool stuff. Big business creates big oil slicks in the Gulf that shuts a lot of industries down and big business and big government join hands to cover up everything they can. You'd have to go quite a distance back to see most of the big business today was small business, except for some of the computer companies which certainly have no moral high ground to stand on. 

Which big business do you think would be a good model for us to follow?

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## Rick

Sorry Wolf, you need a few more lessons. You have as much opportunity to fulfill the American dream as Bill Gates, Elon Musk or anyone else did. You are only as limited as you allow yourself to be. You are welcome to point at others and blame them if you wish but the truth is the blame always stops at our own doorstep. Never blame someone else for our own falilings. That's not pointed at you but all of us. If you don't like government, get elected. If you don't like big business, create your own business and model it the way you think it should be modeled. That was my lack of empathy comment.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Most any business has a desire to grow, get bigger and ultimately become a "Big Business".  Obviously, "Big Business" as we lump it together these days has been around for a long time in a progression since the industrial revolution.  

It really is a necessary thing these days too.  There are 7.5 billion human critters running around on the Earth, all expecting to be fed, clothed, medicated and entertained.... Mom and Pop shops can't do that, and evidently, we as a country can't do it either, right now.  In my adult life I have watched American manufacturing be gradually shifted to foreign countries.  Nothing wrong with that really until we get on the outs with that particular country or the SHTF... Then, it'sa problem...

Still, home gardens, farms, hunting, ... you know survival prep stuff... will keep you alive as long as you work it and defend it. But you're dealing hundreds of millions of people who don't know the first thing about doing that, don't care to do it and are VERY used to not having to really DO anything to get their basic needs or even their luxuries attended to.  They really wouldn't think twice about taking from the "haves" by force of treachery.

So, Big Business is a thing, and it's really a good thing.  It keeps anarchy at bay, and without a huge system of big businesses growing, processing, shipping, and selling the stuff of OUR basic needs, we would spiral into anarchy, and probably starvation...  

As is pointed out early on in these very forums, survival is a temporary thing.  If survival ever becomes a way of life, well, God help us.

Big Business is what keeps the grocery shelves stocked even when people go crazy and buy all the toilet paper.  

Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Big Government, on the other hand is the epitome of greed, sloth and covetousness.  They do nothing, produce nothing and perform no service that small or moderate government could not accomplish much cheaper.  They only take from those who produce and enrich themselves.  They are allowed to grow and perpetuate by that group of people who expect to be "kept". 

Alan

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## rebel

> Big Government, on the other hand is the epitome of greed, sloth and covetousness.  They do nothing, produce nothing and perform no service that small or moderate government could not accomplish much cheaper.  They only take from those who produce and enrich themselves.  They are allowed to grow and perpetuate by that group of people who expect to be "kept". 
> 
> Alan


Like theyve perfected the art of hypocrisy. Were screwed.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Well, America needs to give Donald Trump the House and the Senate so he can continue draining the swamp for the next four years.  The DemocRats have done nothing but thwart any progress in that direction.

Note: I don't particularly like Donald Trump as a person.  But, he wasn't elected to be a nice guy.  Primarily he was elected because he was NOT Hillary Clinton, and secondly because he was a good businessman (he did accumulate $10Billion, himself).

He'll get reelected in November Primarily because he is NOT Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders, and secondly because he is a good businessman.


Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

Rick, that's one of the biggest myths that keep people trapped. If anyone can become wealthy, why is it that only 3 percent of the population in 2018 is worth a million or more. A billion? 1 in548,715. The American dream is for a very few and most started rich. 

I'm not interested in being rich and I'm certainly not interested in doing the damage it takes to get there, but the dream of getting rich in America is, for most just that, a dream.

And I have no idea what you're talking about in relation to me fulfilling my dream. I already have and retired at 60.

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## WolfVanZandt

The problem with Trump as a businessman is that he made most of his money by buying businesses, destroying them, and salvaging what he could for himself. How many bankruptcies and bailouts has he had? And I'm afraid he will run the country like he's run his businesses.

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## crashdive123

> The way our voting system is supposed to work, you vote for who you want in an election and the person who gets the most votes wins. What often happens is that people vote for one person do the other won't win.


Not true at all.  Important to remember that the electoral college is there for a reason.  If not for that two or three states would decide national elections.

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## crashdive123

> Rick, that's one of the biggest myths that keep people trapped. If anyone can become wealthy, why is it that only 3 percent of the population in 2018 is worth a million or more. A billion? 1 in548,715. The American dream is for a very few and most started rich. 
> 
> I'm not interested in being rich and I'm certainly not interested in doing the damage it takes to get there, but the dream of getting rich in America is, for most just that, a dream.
> 
> And I have no idea what you're talking about in relation to me fulfilling my dream. I already have and retired at 60.


I believe you answered your own comment when you said "I'm not interested in being rich...".  Many feel the same way and for different reasons.

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## Rick

You answered your own question, Wolf. "I'm not interested in being rich". That's why 6.21 percent are millionaires. 7.6 million households.  That's a seven percent rise by the way.* No one wants to do want it takes to become one yet a lot of people are willing to chastise them for having the work ethic to to do it. As for Trump running the country, I can stand for a lot of that. The numbers speak for themselves. I wish other politicos would pay attention and learn something. 

Well said, Alan.


* https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/...ked/index.html

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## WolfVanZandt

Crash, you're right that it's nowhere as simple, but that's why a lot of people don't vote. They don't think their votes does any good.

Seems you're right about the American Dream, though.

https://www.investopedia.com/article...dream-2016.asp

So, I've been giving all these reasons that neither Trump not Biden should be president with little to no argument.

So why are ya'll supporting Trump?

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## WolfVanZandt

What numbers Rick?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/...ald-trump.aspx

When half the country liked you and half doesn't, how's that good. It's about what just about every other president has done.

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## Rick

Record unemployment across all sectors, record employment*, record stock market, 12,000 factories in the last three years, replacing NAFTA with USMCA, signing a $2B trade deal the China, requiring UN partners to increase their share of contributions, energy independence, one of the largest tax cuts and reforms, we became a net natural gas exporter for the first time since 1957, got rid of the Iran deal, signed a deal with the EU to increase U.S. exports, strengthened our borders. Should I keep going?  

* I won't quibble about the term 'record'. Most are while others are the first time in decades.

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## crashdive123

> So, I've been giving all these reasons that neither Trump not Biden should be president with little to no argument.
> 
> So why are ya'll supporting Trump?


No argument because this isn't the place for it.  I'm voting for Trump because he has done what he has promised to do (unusual for a politician to keep promises) and the reason that I voted for him.  He is doing exactly what I want him to do.  For far too long conservatives have just "taken" it.  

His stances on things like trade, the economy and illegal immigration have been consistent.  Listen to his interview with Oprah from 1988.

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## WolfVanZandt

First, he said he wouldn't run. But on a more serious note, he said we need friends. Who's our foreign friends.

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## WolfVanZandt

But, what is this thread about? Oh yeah. The Corona virus. What's gonna happen next year when it comes back?

I would hope that the virus has made it clear that survival is an everyday activity. Everyday survival may not be as intense as survival in a crisis but the crisis is why it's everyday.

Big out bags and bug in bunkers are just tools and the may not even be there when you need it. The necessary tools are a fit body and mind. Prepping should be about building personal Independence and the ability to handle and repulse attacks from our environment. That has to be an ongoing effort.

That's what our answer to Corona 19 should be.

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## BENESSE

I am certainly voting for Trump for all the reasons Rick and Crash mentioned. His vision for the country closely aligns with mine and his accomplishments confirm he can get it done even under the most corrupt opposition.

As far as friends, what friends?!  We hardly had any to begin with. UK for sure, but the rest were just enjoying our money and willingness to go along to get along. Glad that has stopped, glad a leader is finally putting his country and people ahead of anyone else. A patriotic president...what an outrageous notion!

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## BENESSE

> The necessary tools are a fit body and mind. Prepping should be about building personal Independence and the ability to handle and repulse attacks from our environment. That has to be an ongoing effort.
> 
> That's what our answer to Corona 19 should be.


I agree. And may I add that national prepping should also be about the same things especially independence from predatory countries.

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye, like Russia and North Korea.

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## Cliff Booth

> Rick, that's one of the biggest myths that keep people trapped. If anyone can become wealthy, why is it that only 3 percent of the population in 2018 is worth a million or more. A billion? 1 in548,715. The American dream is for a very few and most started rich. 
> 
> I'm not interested in being rich and I'm certainly not interested in doing the damage it takes to get there, but the dream of getting rich in America is, for most just that, a dream.
> 
> And I have no idea what you're talking about in relation to me fulfilling my dream. I already have and retired at 60.


I think youd be surprised how many millionaires are first generation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## BENESSE

Historic US Space Launch today!
Private sector. 
Self starter.
Billionaire.
Immigrant.
Only in America.

So proud.

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## Rick

T-Minus 18 minutes. Watching at Nasa.gov XXXXX they scrubbed the launch due to weather. Blah. Launch rescheduled for Saturday at 3:22 pm Eastern.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

The pressure is really on not to screw this up.

Alan

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## crashdive123

I was looking forward to the launch.  Not sure if I'll see the re-scheduled launch.  I should be on a small boat in the Gulf of Mexico on Saturday.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> ..... I should be on a small boat in the Gulf of Mexico on Saturday.


Now, you have my attention.  Space ship launches come and space ship launches go, but fishing trips are another thing....

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

I guess it's like the transporter in Star Trek. You gotta break some eggs before you can get it right.

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/23/80864...omemade-rocket

Yeah, I'm rooting for the space cowboys.

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## Herron

So the UK is having a lockdown this Monday. I wonder what does the government wait for declaring a curfew already. It could simply solve both of their problems... I wish we could have a similar approach to the European people. I mean my mother locked herself up in her SPAM Jail since the outbreak started and she says that everyone in their neighborhood behaves like that. They don't go outside as long as there is no something very urgent and important appears and don't need a curfew at all. But here, unfortunately, it's always a matter to discuss.

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## 13JFO

> I guess it's like the transporter in Star Trek. You gotta break some eggs before you can get it right.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2020/02/23/80864...omemade-rocket
> 
> Yeah, I'm rooting for the space cowboys.


(hi, new guy who's lurked)

That poor man had to have known he was going to die in that contraption. Rooting for Elon Musk though. Might be one of the only good things that happens all year.

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## WolfVanZandt

Aye, we really need something positive after the start of this year.

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## Colossus

With the US pandemic surging again, I just don't know what the federal government is doing or are they doing anything at all to stop this virus.

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## Rick

And that bothers you in Glasgow, how? Lagha. Or as we say over the pond. Bye bye.  :Stupid:

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Why, just today I saw federal agents out on the highway stopping the virus.  They had them spread eagle against the cars.  They were doing a pretty darn cool job of stopping the virus.

Alan

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## crashdive123

It would be nice to have accurate numbers.  In the past week (these are all Florida stories) a story came out that clinics (many, but not sure how many) were only reporting positive test, and not negative test results.  That makes it look like the state has a much higher positivity rate (percentage wise) than it really has.  These clinics were reporting a 100% rate vice a 6% rate in testing.  Another story was that all tests that were positive, even those that were re-tests to verify if an individual was still positive.  The story tracked a few individuals (five I think) that accounted for 25 reported positives for the state.  

Ever since the RNC announced that it would be coming to Jacksonville next month it has been non-stop "the sky is falling" stories and actions that I believe are intended to get the convention cancelled.

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## Rick

Yeah, all these folks protesting things haven't impacted those numbers at all. I mean, golly gee. It has to be those GOP folks holding rallies, right?

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## crashdive123

Funny how much of the media is not reporting the comments of the head of the CDC when he said South Florida is seeing a large spike because so many of the people from NY, NJ and MA are going to South Florida to get away from their own hot spots and that the protests and riots have had a large impact on the spikes.  I guess it doesn't fit their narrative.

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## WolfVanZandt

Heh, a local post explained differences between local health reports and federal by saying that, if a person with Covid died in a car accident on the way to see their doctor, it would be counted by the federal organization as a Covid death.

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## crashdive123

Guy that died in a motorcycle crash counted as a covid death.  The logic?  Covid could have caused him to crash.  SMH

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## DogMan635

It was reported today in the news, on the virus inspections lines, a vehicle entered and information was taken down. But some could not wait and left the line before a test was performed completely. Creating two positive-test results. They also noted that there was no standard in place when someone moves out of the line. Also, they noted the mess handling of test samples. They had noted many infractions of the quality of inspections performed.
For real up-to-date information go to CoronaVirus.gov/  It's been handed over to the governors to complete all four phases in there own states. When on the site go down to the USA MAP and click on your state.

http://coronavirus.gov

 The president is going to be holding the end of day VIRUS Conferences. Starting today at 5:30 PM 07/21/2020

My point of view as for schools and fears not how questions are written in a way by the union to get a no answer. Why not look at double sessions 30-kids classes would be cut to 15-giving spacing. Understand the Unon wants trump out of office, so they are not going to cooperate.

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## DogMan635

FOr what it's is worth this Corna is a new bug. The flu bug in size in 1,004 and Corna is .03 supper small and the first known bug germ to go inside a woman to infect the baby. Even HIV a mother could have HIV and the baby was born without HIV. This Corna is so so NEW and we are still learning. 

I like Dr. Fauci, and he is funny at times as his way of thinking is numbers, laboratory. What he says is correct. But is it practical? What would you think if they said 16-foot distances would be safer? because the virus is so small and can stay alive and move fast in a passing wind. 

But can we do this practically?

Understand TRUMP was told he was talking too much and turned over the return program to the GOVERNORS and some I'm sorry to say could but find their buts with both hands. Creating more issues and failure to act. Now everyone wants TRUMP to fix it. SO he has returned. But understand this Virus is a UNKNOW and there is no quick fix. The weak, if not protected can end up being cut from the herd. SO we have to step up and be responsible and wear mask correctly. do the responsible things doing so will save lives. Not doing so or acting irrespirable will cost many more lives.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

What is costing lives is PEOPLE not behaving responsibly.  We all know that all the laws, regulations and restrictions mean NOTHING if people don't comply.  If it was raining fire and brimstone there's about half the population that would go outside and look up at the sky.

Alan

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## Rick

Wait. Just how hard would it be raining fire and brimstone? 'Cause I've never seen that. And if a bugle blows just before, well, then I am for sure not going out but if it's just fire and brimstone I might sneak me a peak. A fellah might only get to see that once.

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## Rick

Actually, I don't wear a mask. I rely on social distancing. 

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## WolfVanZandt

Eh, but some of just don't have the right....uh equipment.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Sometimes once is waaaaay to much!

Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I am waiting until page number 32 shows before I open this thread again....

Alan

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## crashdive123

Nice boots.

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## Rick

Thanks. New hat, too.

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## DogMan635

President Trump Safety *NEWS MEETING ON Corona Virus* today with the EXPERTS at 5:30-PM EST.

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## kyratshooter

I hope he is not wearing a hong!

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## BENESSE

Hell's bells, I knew it was a matter of time!
Wish we had a vaccine for that, _Rick._

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## crashdive123

Looks like he's lost some weight during the lockdown.

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## BENESSE

Not enough  :Sneaky2:

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## Rick

It has been years, years since that pic has been posted. There have been a lot of new members join...I mean spammers that needed running off....yeah, that's what I meant, spammers. (And she didn't even compliment me on my boots. Now that is hurtful. Then again, maybe she didn't even notice my boots.)

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## kyratshooter

Things are getting serious fellows.

The supply chain is becoming seriously compromised.

I just got my copy of American Rifleman and for the first time in years they do not have the normal page of Harbor Freight coupons.

No free flashlight or screwdrivers for me this month!

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## Rick

You know, we hung around in life to get the discounts and the freebies! We did our bit and now it's time we collect. FEDEX, USPS and UPS use my house as a coffee shop. If they start pulling that crap they WILL see some serious protests. I have no idea how many seniors it would take to pull down the Modern Head sculpture or some of that other crap they call art but they seem to forget most of us own 4 wheel drive vehicles and tow chains. Lots of tow chains. 

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## kyratshooter

Neighbor got her riding mower stuck in the bog at the back of her lot.  She called her boyfriend over to get her out.

Too steep and too wet for any of the trucks.  

Boyfriend says "We need tow chains", and comes to my door.

I say "How many do you need?"

I get out the chains, the straps, and the portable winch, he seems bewildered.

I let the young guys stretch the straps and chains from the road in front to the stuck mower in back.  They did all the pulling from the paved road using the winch hooked to his trailer hitch.

Neighbor looks at her boyfriend and says "When you grow up will you have 150 feet of tow straps?"

My lane is filled with old guys with power tools, car lifts, welders, milling machines and such, accumulated over our lifetimes.  We spend most of our time roaming the countryside looking for the elusive "senior discount" and free coffee.

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## Rick

Since we are limited with what we can do now, I have taken up napping roulette. I have no idea how long naps will be. It could be 20 minutes. It could be one hour. It's anyone's guess. I always write my time down on a piece of paper and if I'm close to the time when I wake up, I reward myself. For example. I wrote down 18 minutes this afternoon. I slept 43 minutes. I consider that pretty darn close so I rewarded myself with a trip to the fridge. It's a dangerous game but we're men, right?

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## WolfVanZandt

It's fair recompense. Seniors
....there when you need us!

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## BENESSE

You never know but the young 'uns just might surprise you by being there when you've fallen and can't get up.

God works in mysterious ways.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I decided to go ahead and get an antibodies test at my last Dr. visit.  Got the results back on Thursday, or was it Wednesday or Tuesday,.... anyway, I'm double stacked with antibodies with a score of 19.5, whatever that means.  They say anything over 2 is good.  #1 wife had a 6.  Still wearing the mask though.  Humana sent me some really cool (they're actually hot) masks that can be washed up to 30 times or more.  

So, I just had to brag a bit.

Alan

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## Rick

I keep telling my kids they are going to have to change my diapers in the near future. Picking me up will probably be a God send to them considering the other. Of course, knowing them, they will drag me down the stairs...feet first. Did I mention there are 12 stairs?

19.5 of whatever sounds like a great number to me, Alan. When I was in school there was more than one test I would have been happy to have scored a 19.5 on. Just sayin'. Earthquakes, probably not so much.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

When we were house hunting, if it had stairs, I didn't even get out of the truck. 

I'm probably not going to make it to the diapers stage.  I needed two 1x4s 34" long today so I climbed the ladder to get to the scraps that I had placed up in the shelf out in the shop.  I got all the way up and the d@mn thing started walking on me.  I almost took a ride on the gravity express.  A six foot fall onto concrete is going to really hurt.  

Alan

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## WolfVanZandt

Benesse, I hope so.

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## LowKey

If I had the Corona virus, it's dead now. Thanks Rick. :Blink:

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## Rick

I am here to serve, sir. I consider it a public service. If there is anything I can do, just let me know. A front view perhaps?

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## BENESSE

> I am here to serve, sir. I consider it a public service. If there is anything I can do, just let me know. A front view perhaps?


A brilliant idea to help the LE out. Low cost, high concept. 

Potentially most effective crowd dispersal technique to date. Wear it in public and watch 'em run.

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## Rick

I'm...uh...I'm going to take that as a compliment. 'Cause I'm sure that's how you meant it....I think.

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## BENESSE

Of course it's a compliment considering you are so dedicated to public service, and all. :Innocent:

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## Rick

That's the ticket. Mom, apple pie and the American way. 

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## WolfVanZandt

Not to mention George C. Scott. Waitaminit, that's not Gerge C. Scott!

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## Rick

Well, I'll swan. That there is Elvis. Ain't you got a velvet Elvis? Ever body got a velvet Elvis. What kind of a man cave have you got ifin you ain't got a velvet Elvis? Purdy obvious you ain't attractin' no ladies to your man cave ifin you ain't got no velvet Elvis. That's all I got ta say about the matter.

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## BENESSE

Maybe he is more of a bulldogs playing poker kinda guy?

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## Rick

Yeah, there's that I guess.

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## WolfVanZandt

I'm most definitely a bulldogs playing poker type of guy. I'd tell you what I think of Elvis (which ain't bad but falls way short of adoration, but I get in trouble when I tell people what I think of Shakespeare, too) but I'd probably get banned. (You know he wasn't the first to make Blue Suade Shoes a hit, right?)

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## kyratshooter

Nope, Carl Perkins wrote Blue Suede Shoes, and Big Mama Thornton recorded Hound Dog 4 years before Elvis.

Perkins was one of Elvis' buddies at Sun Records, (was part of the famous million dollar quartet) and lived in Jackson, TN, about 30 miles east of Memphis. Perkins made more money off the royalties of Elvis than he made on his own recording of BSS. 

Perkins stayed rock-a-billy while the rest of the Sun Crew went either pop, country or R&R.

The Beatles claimed that if there had not been a Carl Perkins there would have been no Beatles and they recorded several of his songs. The Stones said the same about Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters.  

Big Moma Thornton remained bitter for the rest of her life, claiming that Elvis had stolen her song, when Hound Dog had been a delta blues standard for decades already.

Those guys(Elvis, Cash, Wayland Jennings, Perkins) were all "cover artists" and recorded old standards as well as having a troop of writers feeding them hits.  A lot of the songs they rejected were picked up by other artists and turned into hits.  Take Me Home Country Roads was written for Johnny Cash.

It did not make them any less good.

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## WolfVanZandt

You sound like an aficianado Kyrat.  Cool.

I've heard several of the early blues artists do Hound Dog.

Frankly, (and, I guess, perversely) much of my favorite Presley music is his movie songs.

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## kyratshooter

Not really an Elvis fan, never was too much. He was too pop for my tastes as time went on.

Its more like a fan of the history of blues and early rock & roll. I lived down the road from "The Col." when I was young and my life was saturated with the growing music trends.  They were headline news where I grew up in Nashville.  Sun Records sold off many of those contracts to bigger firms, some of them in Nashville. 

I also lived down the road from Flat & Skruggs and my back yard backed up to the Carter Family estate, I went to school with Mama Maybelle's grandchildren. Like I said, it was a music saturated life.

My vacation last year was a trip down the Great River Road, following the route the pioneers took floating their crops to market in Natchez and new Orleans.  

At Memphis I jumped to the east side of the river and visited Graceland, Sun Studios, and got on the Blues Highway and drove through the Delta down to Natchez.  On the way I diverted to Greenville (Mississippi John Hurt), Indianolia (BB King home place), and places between.  Went to the crossroads, laid a quarter on Robert Johnson's tombstone at the Zion Church.  

Glad I did now.  This virus has put a stop to much of my travel planning this year.

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## WolfVanZandt

Cool. Aye, I meant "aficianado of modern music."

 :Smile:

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## Rick

Dang, we had some schools open last and had students and teachers test positive the very first day. Ain't lookin' good. Schools are alternating in-class one day and virtual learning the next but I think it's going to be all virtual before it's all said and done. What a sad state of affairs. I told the kids I was going to board up the windows and leave shooting ports. I was only half joking.

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## kyratshooter

The more they test the more they find, and the more they find the more they discover that their test is showing antibodies developed as resistance.  

Immunity developed after fighting off the disease is showing positive with no symptoms. 

Only they won't admit it.  They need those positive test results to maintain, and get us used too close controls.

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## WolfVanZandt

I ain't gonna disagree.

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## Phaedrus

> The more they test the more they find, and the more they find the more they discover that their test is showing antibodies developed as resistance.  
> 
> Immunity developed after fighting off the disease is showing positive with no symptoms. 
> 
> Only they won't admit it.  They need those positive test results to maintain, and get us used too close controls.


If "they" won't admit it how'd you find out, from the Illuminati?

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## WolfVanZandt

Well, there are some troublesome folks out here that can do math and when things "they" say don't add up, we think for ourselves. That is, after all, what survivors do, right?

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## crashdive123

> Well, there are some troublesome folks out here that can do math and when things "they" say don't add up, we think for ourselves. That is, after all, what survivors do, right?


Yep.  Well said.

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## chiggersngrits

> Well, there are some troublesome folks out here that can do math and when things "they" say don't add up, we think for ourselves. That is, after all, what survivors do, right?


 good one Wolf

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## nell67

> Well, there are some troublesome folks out here that can do math and when things "they" say don't add up, we think for ourselves. That is, after all, what survivors do, right?


....(++1)....

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