# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Making Stuff >  not another knife thread...

## canid

this is one of my favorites, and a great use for an old porcelain sink. toilets work too, just don't use the inside bits...

i've gradually worked on this for about a year i think. every once in a while i just pick it back up and do or add something to it.

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and my sgain dubh:

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i did a poor job on the lettering here. i made one straight and one 1/5 circle punch, and was being assaulted by wasps while working on it. add to that that the antler was very old and pretty brittle and you can probably understand. the words are from an english translation of the Declaration of Arbroath. for my sgain dubve, it is the Scotish equivalent of 'from my cold, dead hands'. i will not be asked to remove this knife for any reason. if i am going somewhere a knife i not appropriate, i would have taken it off already.

the engraving, done with a fine burin, was filled with a mixture of wood ash and saliva. this same mixture was used to fill the lettering.

i certainly didn't make the sheath. it was given to me by a friend with a knife that has since been lost.

the blade is stainless from art pewter of Scotland.

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## crashdive123

Outstanding work.

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## Rick

Actually, I find both the lettering and the knife pretty danged cool!

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## canid

the antler was from a buck my great uncle or great grandfather took many years ago.

i know this was just shameless showing off, but come on, they're not that great. i enjoyed the heck out of making them though.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Anyone who has worked with antler knows it to be the most difficult handle to make. I enjoyed the post quite alot. I am sitting working on a new blade now, no antler handle though....I will have to regain my composure after the last one before attempting another. Maybe it was because it was full tang. Maybe the next one I'll try something else. For this newest one i am using split hardwood from the backyard campfire. I have shaped the handle with only my Mora. I'll post it when it is finished. Them instructionals are alot of work!

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## canid

can't wait to see it.

no full tang on my blade, sgain dubhs tend to have cast plastic handles these days [cryin' shame] and mine had a half length tang with two indentations in the side near the end of it to serve as an anchor. i had to set it into the antler with epoxy.

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## rebel

I like your work too.  How many mediums have you used to make a blade?  

For those half tang blades I have welded on a little extra.  If that helps?

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## FVR

Rebel, 

Looks good.  Great minds think alike.  I just finished two flint knives and a mess of knife blades.

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Next project, to take the HB pioneer knife that is made for throwing but looks a little like the Hudson Bay knife, turn it into a Hudson Bay knife.


Oneday I might just get the smell of antler out of my nose.

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## canid

steel, stone, glass and porcelain.

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## crashdive123

Nice work Frank.

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## FVR

Thanks Crash.


I may have posted this before.

I one time traded an otter skin that was hit to a guy for an osage fence post and a chunk of Eng. flint.

When I told my wife, she just started to laugh.


"I don't believe that you traded Roadkill for Sticks and Stones, and you both walked away happy."

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## canid

> Oneday I might just get the smell of antler out of my nose.


never happen.

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## crashdive123

The first antler handle I made......smelled like I was in a dentist office for about a week.

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## FVR

LOL........

I used a rotary hand grinder on an elk antler last week, elect., antler, burnt antler.....ewwwwwwww.

Stuck the grinder in the truck, not mine.........LOL.........I know I'm going to get a few comments.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

filling the room with smoke of hardwood now! smells a little better than antler, kinda asphyxiating...not sure if that is spelled right...but it'll have to do.. Nice work Canid and FVR..I am listening and learning and pretty proud of my teachers!

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## panch0

Great job Candid and FVR. I love primitive knives. I wish I had time to try my hand at one of those and a bow. I have a piece of antler, a blade with a thin hidden tang, but am afraid that the deer antler is not strong enough for say cutting thick fuzz sticks. They look very sturdy and well made and look like they could cut very well. My hats off to you two gentlemen, you are both very talented. I would definetly want to be in your clan should SHTF.

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## canid

new handle i'm working on. i have too many crappy stainless knives with cast plastic handles. some of them have blades worth using.

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## crashdive123

That looks like it will be great when you are done.

I picked up some alligator bones and jawbones this past week end that look like the will make some pretty good handles.  Guess I've got to start whittling down the project list.

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## canid

you're going to start whittling too..? man you're going to be one busy cat.

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## crashdive123

Gotta finish Rebel Chick's knife.  Then there's a project for Old Soldier, involving paracord.  Then there's the five rusty cast iron pans (free) that I need to bring back to life.  Got most of the parts I need for a new forge I want to make. Then there's..........

Oh yeah, gotta work in there from time to time as well.

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## canid

i built my forge at the beginning of the dry season and move before the wet season came back. now i'll have to make one of those clay insulated barbecue types.

i now live once more in a residential area where you can only burn in a bbq and only a few days per month.

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## nell67

> Thanks Crash.
> 
> 
> I may have posted this before.
> 
> I one time traded an otter skin that was hit to a guy for an osage fence post and a chunk of Eng. flint.
> 
> When I told my wife, she just started to laugh.
> 
> ...


Frank,I think you need to add that quote as part of your signature!

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## canid

i agree with nell here.

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## crashdive123

Yep.  That would make a great signature line.

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## canid

this is a drop point skinner neck knife i'm starting soon [as soon as i can borrow my buddy's Dremel]:

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i'll probably reposition it on the steel i've drawn it out onto, to maximize the size of the scrap i have left over for something like broadhead points. the piece is about 4" overall length.

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## panch0

Looks very handy, I like the design.

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## crashdive123

Canid - we must think alike.  I drew this up about 10 minutes before you posted.

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## canid

i have no idea what kind of steel it is. it was a small piece of plate i found on the side of a rural road. it' was around the same place i found the nice piece of leaf spring i've got standing by for a parang when i'm ready.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I like it too! How thick is the plate? I like the design hinged on 2 fingers! Sweet design!

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## canid

nice crash. best of luck on it, though you won't need it, and wish me the same.

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## canid

it's about 1/8" i believe, but i haven't got my caliper handy.

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## crashdive123

I'm sure yours will turn out great.  As far as luck goes, I've found it is just better to have spare steel for when I mess up.

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## panch0

I can't wait to see these when they are done. It is cool how you can see each knifemakers personal style when making knives. I guess thats why makers love to share with each other.

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## crashdive123

Speaking of --- I found a knife making club in town that I'll be checking out.

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## panch0

They never have cool stuff like that around here. I know of two other knifemakers around here. One is an hour away and the other is 45 minutes away.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I'd say there are very few with similar interests to mine around here as well. Guess that is why I like the forum cause I sure hate typin'

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## crashdive123

> They never have cool stuff like that around here. I know of two other knifemakers around here. One is an hour away and the other is 45 minutes away.


When I was picking up some leather, the shop owner told me about them.  They meet once a month at a loccal Gander Mountain.  One (or maybe two) of the guys lets the members come over and use his shop, all the while giving tips.  I am looking forward to meeting this group.

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## canid

i bet; it sound's promising.

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## panch0

There is nothing like watching it in person. It will greatly improve the learning curb. I had alot of help from Don Robinson of Brownsville, TX When I was making a mistake he let me know and didn't sugar coat it either.

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## preachtheWORD

My Dad has knapped porcelain from an old toilet lid.  Actually comparatively easy to work.

He calls it "johnstone"

I always get a kick out of that

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## canid

it's easy to work if you don't want a sharp, durable edge.

i actually find obsidian and glass easier.

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## canid

neck knife progress:

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i've roughed it out, aside from the loop, which will come soon [don't have the tooling for it at present, but i can borrow].

i have started the blade bevel. and began rounding the edges.

soon, i'll have to harden and temper, then slowly wet-grind the final blade bevel and sand. i can't polish it yet either, but that will come soon enough.

this won't be a knife to brag about, but that's alright by me.

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## crashdive123

Nice progress.  I like it.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Looks great Canid, I can't wait to see it finished. I like the size of it. I haven't gotten down to small knives yet. Still trying to put away the machete' I'd also like to see the sheath.

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## canid

i'm waiting on the establishment of a new forge or furnace before i get to work on the leafspring i have. it's got parang written all over it.

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## Rick

I can see it now. Sharpened blade at the drill press making the hole. Drill sticks in metal. Knife become spinning blade of death!!!!!

Just kidding (I hope). It's going to look great when you're done!

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## canid

i'm trying now to decide on whether i will proceed with the finger loop, or make a bulbous wood scale handle.

after feeling it in my hand, it fits great as is, without a finger loop.

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as for the spinning blade of death, i've already got enough of them.

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## WgS

Canid,

I finally found these pics.  Amazing!  Absolutely amazing.


FVR,

I enjoyed your pics too.

Thank you both for sharing them.

Hugs,
Canid's mom

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## canid

well i've got the knife hardened and tempered. i don't know how well the temper worked out, but it doesn't seem to chip on the blade readily [i'm sure i could, but i don't need to try that hard]

i have yet to see how durable the edge is, but it's had it's first real sharpening and i can shave a clean swath down my arm with it.

it got a fine sanding followed by a preliminary polishing, but i need a polishing wheel; it's a lot of work by hand.

i roughed out some cherry scales. i'm going to make a relatively slim bulbous scale handle for it. i still have to drill out two rivet holes, and it may be worth my while to soften the tang for that, though i don't know, i do have some carbide bits.

i'll probably update with pictures soon, with any new information and finally with the handle when it's done. i don't have the leather for a sheath yet, but i have an idea in mind.

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## canid

almost forgot, i heated the blade for hardening by blowing into an oak wood fire with a troll pole [length of tubing for directing air into a fire to accellerate burning, like a manual bellows].

it took my breath away. seriously, i almost passed out by the time it was up to temp.

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## crashdive123

I've seen that method used before with two people tag teaming, so as to not pass out.  Looking forward to seeing the new pics.

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## canid

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## crashdive123

That would make a nice little companion knife it you could stitch an additional sheath to the outside of the existing one.

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## canid

it would, though so far i have a neck sheath in mind for this one.

as you could imagine, it won't take much leather for the sheath either way, i just need to get ahold of some.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Looks great! looking forward to the neck knife sheath!

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## canid

i'm half ready to cannibalize the leather from my saddle-bags. i with i still had my synthetic pair handy.

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## crashdive123

If you've got a cobbler or some other craftsman that works with leather you might be able to pick up some free scraps.

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## canid

that just might be the best idea i never had.

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## crashdive123

A while back at a garage sale, I saw, but did not get an old pair of all leather combat boots.  They were fifty cents - might have been able to get a couple of small sheaths out of something like that.

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## Rick

And, of course, Goodwill or some other thrift store might have a pair of leather boots for very little. 

The knife is coming along very well!

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## panch0

That knife looks like it will be very handy. Nice job!

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## canid

i haven't got a power drill to make the rivet holes so this knife is on hold for now.

next, i'm shaping out some new proper kitchen knives.

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## Rick

Hey Canid. I picked up a Craftsman 19v drill at Goodwill minus the battery charger. Came home and ordered the battery charger from Sears and wound up with a really nice drill for about half the cost of a new one. You might try a pawn shop. Of course, the guys at the pawn shops generally know the price of a tool.

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## canid

the pawn shops here tend to ask about 125% of retail for anything that more than half works.

i've got the blade roughed out for the first kitchen knife, and a handle i may or may not like.

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## NightShade

there are hardware stores around me that will rent powertools for real short change... might be an avenue worth lookin into

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## canid

i haven't had $10 that wasn't already earmarked in a long time. i do have friends with more tools than i.

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## canid

pictures:

blade is roughed out, and bevel of blade edge is ground in, but blunted to prevent scorching during heat treatment. the stock was a cheap steel machete, with black powder coating. i sanded to remove the coating.
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i have roughed out a handle, but i'm not sold on it's profile yet. the blade is still not heat treated yet, and the handle is dry fit.
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## crashdive123

Looks like it would be a welcome addition to any kitchen or field cook kit.

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## canid

i think i'll take the spur on the base of the grip down a bit, so it's less pronounced. it's comfortable in the hand, but i'm not sold on the aesthetic.

i kind of like the texture and finish left by the orbital sander. i'm going to buff it as smooth as may be, to keep it from tarnishing too much, but otherwise, i will try to keep it.

i'm going to try something iffy with this after it's heat treated:

weak acid etching. tannin seems to be particularly nasty to carbon steel, given it's weak acidity. i'm going to make a strong tea of tanin rich bark and see if it'll work. i'm dubious, but i don't think it'll hurt and it might just work.

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## crashdive123

Looking forward to seeing the progress.

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## NightShade

> i think i'll take the spur on the base of the grip down a bit, so it's less pronounced. it's comfortable in the hand, but i'm not sold on the aesthetic.
> 
> i kind of like the texture and finish left by the orbital sander. i'm going to buff it as smooth as may be, to keep it from tarnishing too much, but otherwise, i will try to keep it.
> 
> i'm going to try something iffy with this after it's heat treated:
> 
> weak acid etching. tannin seems to be particularly nasty to carbon steel, given it's weak acidity. i'm going to make a strong tea of tanin rich bark and see if it'll work. i'm dubious, but i don't think it'll hurt and it might just work.


That's interesting.. I'm curious to see how the etching works out...keep us updated!!

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## canid

me too. i have serious doubts, to be sure, but i can't wait to gibe a try.

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## WgS

we're getting rid of everything in storage in the next couple of weeks.  i'll send whatever tools and useful things I find down with your uncle.

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## canid

oh, ok. however it works out.

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## canid

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here are the skinner, two of the kitchen knives and a couple broadheads.

they are ready to be polished up a bit [to bring the surface a tad closer to the low spots, and round the edges. it seems this will reduce scorching/tarnish when i heat treat.

after this comes the heat treatment, which i've been putting off to work in the garden.

i plan to heat treat the skinner again, because i re-ground the bevel on one side to remove some bulk and it got too hot in the process [carelessness on my part].

the broadheads where fun, and quick to make. they overheat quickly on the grinder, and i bet i could get the grinding and heating done in one move, then quench immediately. i keep cooling water next to the grinder anyway.

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## canid

some more work on the handle aswell.

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this is the handle for the cleaver, and i plan to do the other kitchen knife in a similar fashion, but contoured better for more of a sideways grip, since it will be used for slicing as much as chopping.

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## crashdive123

They're coming along nicely.  As usual, well done.

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## canid

thank you; i'm under no delusions, some of my work is half #$%ed, but i'm having a great time and it looks like i'll come out with perfectly serviceable tools.

after all of this feels smooth to me, i'll move onto aesthetics, reducing imperfections and streamlining my work for efficiency and quality.

i absolutely love learning to do these things.

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## crashdive123

The mark of a good tool is one that is able to accomplish the job at hand.  The art, as in you bows will come in time.

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## canid

i've got a pot on the stove and i'm attempting the etching with a strong tea of ash leaves. they are pretty bitter, so they seemed a good candidate.

if this doesn't work i'll try it again, but will also try etching in warm cola.

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## crashdive123

Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

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## canid

neck knife has scale handle now. it is still awaiting pins, a final finish and polishing.

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## crashdive123

Looks great!

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## Rick

I like it. It's sort of a modified Ulu. Yep, that's pretty cool.

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## panch0

Nice! Looks like a handy little bugger.

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## klkak

To bad its a left handed knife or I'd have you send it to me.

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## Rick

Well, okay then. Right handed it is.

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## canid

is that like a left handed metric screwdriver?

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## canid

working on a wooden sheath for the skinner:
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and a handle for this blade. it's actually almost finished now; the picture is from earlier:
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## crashdive123

Saweeeeeeeeeet!

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## canid

the pieces for the walls of the sheath where drawn out by tracing the blade onto the wood with a few MM of a lip around it. the spacers where made by tracing the side of the blade exactly, and sanding down to the inside of the curve, then danding it down to a more or less even width of a few mm.

the second wall of the sheath is gluing up now:
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the edges will be sanded to a nice curve or chamfer , and the walls themselves probably to a slight taper as well, to give it a nicer form.

i'm going to round off the tops of the handle scales, and then add a tab with a matching concave curve at the top of the sheath for them to fit into.

i'm trying to decide if i want to do this with antler or another material. i might try to find some dark horn. they have to be something slightly elastic so they will hold the the blade in with a little pressure. i'll see what i can come up with for that.

i have not yet decided how to want to attach a lanyard for neck wear.

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## canid

lest i forget: the handle and sheath are cherry.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Looks great Canid! A thought for the wooden sheath. Formby's rotten wood stabilizer. Obviously your wood isn't rotten but, a dip in the above will make it stone hard I love the stuff. A little pricy though, it would go a long way with moisture protection. I use it on old boat transoms.

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## canid

i'll give it a try if i get the chance. i'll probably be using polyurethane, inside and out, since it's what i'm using on the handle.

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## Rick

Very nice. Looking forward to the completed sheath!!

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## panch0

I want to see that sheath also. Great idea BTW!

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## canid

update on the sheath:

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i proceeded to fine sand and carefully finish it, only to drop it into a pile of sawdust and steel shavings while the finish was still tacky.

next i get to wait for that to cure and then redo it. i guess it's not the worst thing in the world, but dang it it feels like it when it happens. oh well, i needed to re-finish the handle anyway.

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## crashdive123

Very nice.  I like it.

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## canid

here's a projection to illustrate:
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with the black in polished horn, like this if i can get ahold of some:
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[second image stolen from elsewhere on the net]

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## panch0

Cool little sheath candid. Are you going to use dog tag chains and drill a hole in the bottom. Also how will the knife be held in? I ask cause I really like the idea and may try it whenever I make a small neck knife myself. Thanks.

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## canid

my plan is to have the slot at the sheath's mouth slightly thinner than the blade, with the horn [or which ever material i end up suing] left just thin enough that it can flex. this will keep pressure on the sides of the blade where it meets the handle. that surface will probably then be rubberized for increased friction. i think this will work, if also require upkeep. otherwise, it will have to have a snap closure of some sort.

as for attachment, i haven't made up my mind yet. it will be suspended from the tip end of the sheath.

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## canid

i *know* i can pull that idea off, but i'm only pretty sure i can do it the first time.

i'm still tossing other ideas around.

soon i'll have some more steel.

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## canid

I haven't taken any pictures, but i've started on a small forge for heat treating small blades.

I took a large coffee can and filled it 2/3 full of a mixture of clay rich soil and sand, and wet it. i mixed this with a hand trowl, by twirling around the sides, making sure to scrape the bottom and sides fully. once it was well mixed, I pressed a small coffee can into the center of it. the small can allows about 2 inches of clay mixture around the sides all the way around, and about the same between it's bottom and the bottom of the outer can.

this creates a small metal can inside a larger one, with two inches or so of clay insulation between. This will be left to dry for probably several weeks, and then I will put a hole through the bottom for forced air, and fire it.

The next time i try to make one of these, i think I'll use a large paint can and a large coffee can, to give a somewhat larger forge, but I will first place a steel pipe along the bottom with an elbow fitting centered in it, pointed upwards to join the bottom of the inner can, so to create an internal air line, with the inlet sticking out the side near the bottom.

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## canid

I've settled on some scrap walnut for the upper portion of the sheath. I wanted to get back to work on it more than hold out for some horn.

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## canid

more work on the sheath:

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all the finish is going to be sanded off [i've gotten a good start] and the finish will be redone indoors, hoping i don't mess it up again.

i will be cutting the mouth of the sheath out of the walnut with a dremel cutoff wheel, so i have to wait til i can get some more of those.

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## canid

yep; more knife stuff.

i decided to handle the chef's knife blade first, rather than the cleaver, because i wanted to use it soon. the finish on the blade isn't great, but i did finish it with a coating of epoxy, to help protect it:

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## crashdive123

Great work - as always.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Looks great Canid!

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## Rick

Very nice. I do like that. Always nice to make something return to a useful life.

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## canid

more work done, i've cut out the slot for the sheath's mouth:

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it's about time to sand the curves to a closer fit and sand all joints flush. after that comes refinishing.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Awesome job Canid!! Looking better and better!!

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## Geronimo!

Good job Canid. Looks like that knife will serve you well.

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## crashdive123

It sure is purdy.  Very impressive wood work - just as with your bows.

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## Rick

Man! How nice is that?! Great work.

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## canid

i'm now working on a fixed blade from a junked folding knife blade:

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i ground the base down to a barbed push tang, and set it into the handle with epoxy. it's not the strongest hafting in the world, but this was the style of my sgain dubh blade, and since i've rehandles it it takes quite a lot of stress with no problems.

like the sgain dubh, the handle is mulie antler and Padauk. i love the wood. it smells reminiscent of cinnamon and vanillins when you cut into it.

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## crashdive123

Outstanding work.  I love the look of the wood attached to the antler.

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## canid

i wish i could find a better UV protectant light finish.

this wood darkens significantly with UV exposure, and it happens pretty quickly. it obscures the beautiful figure of the grain, which is fine and subtle.

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## canid

nearly finished another:

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Antler handle with black walnut pommel and billet aluminum bolster/guard.

blade is an unknown knife steel and is extremely hard. barbed push tang set in epoxy.

i could clean the grinding up much better with some draw filing, but new files are still on my wishlist.

i plan to checker the handle, but i'm going to wait until i am better at it. i have plans to make a checkering tool with an offset guide, to follow in the groove of the previous line, either for scoring, or for the cutting the checker itself. that should be pretty straightforward.

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## crashdive123

Looks great!  Very nice work.

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## hunter63

Very nice, thank for the pic's!

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## Rick

You are coming right along as well. Very nice.

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## canid

i'm putting a local ad out for antler, and for certain steels in exchange for hand made knives.

i hope it pans out. i still have several knives to make from this mule deer rack. it was a deer taken by either my great uncle or my great grandfather, and i plan to make knives for several family members from it. i need to make sure i keep enough for that purpose.

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## Rick

Why don't you touch base with processing plants that handle deer? I'm sure the big ones are saved for racks but the small stuff might be tossed since they see so much of it. They might just give you broken or smaller antlers. If they do other animals you might be able to get some horn, too.

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## canid

you're right, as usual. that's a fine idea.

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## hunter63

I'll look around in my "stash", might have some antlers big enough to make something out of.
Gonna be a couple of days or so, gonna be busy.
I'll get back to you.
I pick up a bunch as sheds and also always keep my eyes pealed at yard sales and such.

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## crashdive123

Canid - I'm going to take the next knife I make back to the guy with the huge sawmill blades to try and work a trade.  If I'm successful, I'll send you some steel if you're interested.

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## canid

i'm definitely interested. i'm still out of work and have been for far too long, so i haven't been able to buy much or mail anything for some time.

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## Rick

I just did a check on Craig's List for Indy and there were five antler offerings. None were free but a couple were pretty cheap. Might be worth a shot in your area.

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## canid

no such luck. indiana and central california are quite different places, culturally speaking. i don't think people around here truly value deer the way i do.

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## Rick

> indiana and central california are quite different places, culturally speaking.


That may make the 2009 understatement of the year for LIFE magazine. Stacking Arnold beside Mitch would be like comparing Mutt and Jeff. 

Arnold: "I'll be back"
Mitch: "Okay. Come armed and have money. We don't take credit."

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## panch0

Great job Candid. You seem to have been very busy.

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## canid

give california a break; most of these people thought they where actually voting for the terminator.

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## canid

today i recieved two nice pieces of sawblade steel from crash.

i've drawn out profiles for 4 blades from them. i would have liked to make 2 of them smaller because i was hoping to have a strip leftover on one the the pieces wide enough for a small drawknife blade, but as it stands, there is material for one medium sized drop point hunting knife blade, and 3 similar blades of equal size, but smaller than the first. with this layout, there is very little waste. i'll put up some pics when i cut them out.

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## canid

update; making my second hard sheath.

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i actually scavenged the walnut from the last bow i broke. i'm going to add some antler, and make a leather frog for it before all is said and done.

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## canid

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the antler i cut out for the sheath did not turn out great, but i'll see if i can fix it.

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## crashdive123

It's looking great so far.

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## Rick

Canid, you really do fine work. I like those. A couple of things I did when I put together the wooden sheath for my machete and my Ghurka was to seal the inside with Thompson's Water Seal. I was afraid moisture or water would get inside and either impact the sheath or cause rust or both. I also placed a small hole in the bottom of the sheaths so water could drain if it gets inside. Granted, they are much larger than the sheaths you are making but I thought it might be something to think about since I assume you intend these as users.

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## canid

this is a very rough draft outline for blanks from the saw blade steel crash sent me:

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i'll refine them pretty soon, but i've yet to even cut the steel. i wish to heck i'd bought that 19tpi bi-metal blade for my bandsaw when i had the chance.

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## canid

instead of doing the three smaller knives identical, i figured the shape of that second piece lent itself to a santoku type blade pretty well. we'll see if i stick with it.

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## canid

refined design and cut out templates:
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these have not been traced onto the stock. when i can cut them out i'll bench grind them to profile, grind the rough bevels and file them mostly to spec. before final heat treatment.

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## crashdive123

I like the designs that you came up with.

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## canid

i agree a drainage hole will be a good idea. i'm also thinking of a soft liner.

the wood interior is sealed with polyurethane sealant.

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## canid

this saw blade stock is tough cutting by hand, even after i annealed it.

i don't know if i'll get around to it until i can buy that blade for my bandsaw.

i guess i could do it with a cut-off wheel if i can borrow the dremel again.

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## crashdive123

Canid - my first attempt at annealing it failed (that's why there were no pins in it).  My second attempt seems to have worked.  I anneal mine in a chiminea (little outdoor fire place).  First try (failed) I got a good bed of coals, put the knives in, got a good fire above until they were glowing cherry red then let the fire die down.  My successful attempt was the same method, but kept the fire going for about six hours before letting it die down.  A blacksmith told me that I would need 6 to 8 hours to soften them.  Seems to have worked.

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## canid

yeah, after trying to anneal with air cooling, it seems this steel air hardens a bit. that would explain the continued difficulty in cutting it.

i plan to make some smithing tools, including a rr spike hot chisel, so maybe i'll try to hot cut the stuff.

i've been doing a LOT of research in blacksmithing lately, and i'm trying to get some things together to start learning to make forged blades. i'm currently reading _The Blacksmith's Craft_, published by the Rural Development Commission of Wiltshire, England, and _The Master Bladesmith_ by Jim Hrisoulas, the owner of Salimander Armoury, and from what i can tell, an extremely talented smith.

i still need to acquire some type of anvil or anvil material, and some other things to do even basic work. i have a friend who said he thinks he has an anvil, but i haven't heard back.

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## crashdive123

I picked up a 75 lb anvil last week.  On the steel for those blades, I was at the gentlemans workshop today getting another lesson and he said it is most likely L6.

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## Rick

> I picked up a 75 lb anvil last week.


Are you bragging? I could pick up one that heavy too......with my two wheeler.  :Innocent:

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## Batch

Harbor Freight has a 55lb anvil for $60.

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## Camp10

> Canid - my first attempt at annealing it failed (that's why there were no pins in it).  My second attempt seems to have worked.  I anneal mine in a chiminea (little outdoor fire place).  First try (failed) I got a good bed of coals, put the knives in, got a good fire above until they were glowing cherry red then let the fire die down.  My successful attempt was the same method, but kept the fire going for about six hours before letting it die down.  A blacksmith told me that I would need 6 to 8 hours to soften them.  Seems to have worked.


The longer you keep a steel at non-magnetic, the more carbon you loose.  My method to anneal is to heat an old window weight (those cast iron bullet shaped things you have saved because "there must be a use to these") until it is dull red in most spots and stick it in a metal bucket full of vermiculite.  I will then heat my blade steel to non-magnetic and get it into the bucket near the weight and leave it for several hours.  If it is a plain steel, this will work and keep the carbon loss down.

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## crashdive123

Thanks for the tip.

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## Rick

Is the vermiculite just an insulation?

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## Camp10

> Is the vermiculite just an insulation?


Yes.  It keeps the steel cooling at a slow but constant rate and this is what soften the steel.

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## Rick

Thanks. I was leaning that way I just wanted to make certain there wasn't something in the vermiculite that added to the process.

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## canid

it's about time, with with my new steel sawing capabilities, i roughed out the blade for one of the drop point hunters i'm planning from crash's L-6.

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don't adjust your set; keeping a consistent bevel on a compound curve like this is hard. quite possibly beyond my skill.

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## canid

i don't know what it is with me and curvy blades. this one isn't even all that practical, though i must say it has sex appeal.

as i said further back in this thread, the curves should probably be toned down a bit. i'll probably try to strike a good balance between this, and a tasteful suggestion of this curvature.

Hunter: if i can pull it off as i intend, some more of your antler is going to good use on these knives in concert with padauk and some cherry or maple in my first attempt at a nice puukko handle style. something like this:

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but probably with much less class [i don't have any figured hardwood].

i have a 16-18" or so round of walnut that's been seasoning, sealed for over a year now, which has nicer figure, but is probablydarker than i want. i'll see what i can scrounge up in the way of pretty, light colored hardwood.

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## crashdive123

Woo Hoo - more knife porn!  Looking good.

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## canid

i've still gotta round up some brass flat stock. it would be too handy not to try and get a supply on hand.

i'll be at the home despot today anyway, i might as well see what they happen to have.

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## canid

here's the scheme for the handle:
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i want to put some brass at either end before all is said and done, but it's antler, padauk, ash, padauk, antler.

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## Camp10

That looks great!  I really like the looks of this knife!

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## Rick

The orange accent is really going to be striking on that. Very nice.

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## canid

unfortunately, it's going to darken, and loose distinction in the figure quite a bit. i have not yet found anything in a clear finish that blocks UV quite well enough for Padauk.

it'll settle out somewhere in the neighborhood of a nice burgundy eventually.

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## crashdive123

Outstanding.  Looking forward to the finished product.

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## canid

i just cut out the blank for the santoku:

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its 8" overall, 4" blade by 1 3/8" wide.

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## canid

here's a rough view of the handle for the hunter:

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## Ted

Sweet! Really like the blade too! Can't wait to see the finished product!

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## canid

here's how the handle on the hunter is comming along:

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and the blade of the santoku. i'm working on the taper:

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## crashdive123

Looking really great.

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## canid

i've got the santoku much further along. the taper is dramatically improved, and the weight is now approaching something reasonable. filing notches by hand is harder than it looks. i'm going to have to spend a while evening them out:

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## welderguy

Thats looking good.

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## crashdive123

Nice work.  I've found that doing anything on these old saw mill blades by hand is pretty tough.

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## canid

i sealed the handles yesterday with some polyurethane sealant, and i'm annoyed that it's still tacky. i can understand it taking longer to dry on the purpleheart, but the hunter should be dry now.

i'm tempted to apply gentle heat. maybe i'm just impatient.

speaking of the L-6, i think it would be the perfect material, and thickness for a kukri like the one i've been working on. have you ever tried one crash?

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## standingbear

nice looking blades there, keep up the work.
I need to get my belt grinder finished so i also dabble in making a few blades i have drawn up, iuts been a few years since my last one. :Tongue Smilie:

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## Rick

Make certain you use an outdoor polyurethane. I've found thin coats with light sanding in between to build up the sealer is much better than one heavy coat. It generally dries in well under 24 hours, too.

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## canid

i've just been using a cheap ryobi 4x36" bench top belt sander; one of those combo deals with the 6" disk as well.

so far, it works great, though the drive belt it came with saw a piece of junk, the replacement was only a couple bucks.

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## canid

the stuff i'm using is poly shades. you have to do it in one heavy coat.

so far, it works great, though i've been putting on a top coat or 6 of varathane.

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## crashdive123

> i sealed the handles yesterday with some polyurethane sealant, and i'm annoyed that it's still tacky. i can understand it taking longer to dry on the purpleheart, but the hunter should be dry now.
> 
> i'm tempted to apply gentle heat. maybe i'm just impatient.
> 
> speaking of the L-6, i think it would be the perfect material, and thickness for a kukri like the one i've been working on. have you ever tried one crash?


I'm working on a couple of bigger blades now, but not a kukri style.  Do you use the 6" wheel for much ginding -I'll bet you can do a nice flat grind on it.

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## canid

i mostly save the 6" disks for wood. steel wears abrasive paper/cloth so quickly that i don't find it worth while, considering that belts are cheaper than disks in terms of surface area.

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## canid

i think tomorrow's project will be making a wooden mold to press a sheath for the hunter.

i'm on the verge of tears as we speak; i decided to canibalize my saddlebags for knife sheaths.

i got them on sale, and at today's prices, there's just about $50 worth of leather in them anyway.

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## canid

you know, i tried it, and the 6" disk is great for flat grinds if you keep the blade side at the top of the disk. because the disk moves faster at the outside, it grinds faster toward the blade side. it also gets hot fast, and the blade has to be cooled very often.

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## crashdive123

I'm going to build a circular flat grinder.  I've tried a couple of homemade jobs and they were fantastic.  One had a rheostat to control speed a switch to change direction, the other had two discs that rotated in opposite directions.

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## canid

the disks get a bit expensive, but i have to say i'm impressed. i finished the flat grind on the santoku in about 5 min. and i tapered out the hunter a bit.

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## crashdive123

Think - sandpaper and contact cement, then trim with scissors.  When it comes time to change it out - hair dryer and putty knife.  Kind of a PITA, but a heck of a lot cheaper.

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## canid

i overheated a disk on my sander a while back. the adhesive set up really hard, so the paper came off, leaving the gunk behind. i ended up having to use a chisel against the wheel with the motor on to scrape it all off.

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## crashdive123

I had a simialr experience.  After I removed what I could, I turned it on and used a piece of 50 grit paper (in a gloved hand) and applied very light pressure.  I came off pretty easily.

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## canid

oh, nice.

i had a heck of a time getting the gunk off of mine, and new disks wouldn't adhere to it until i got it completely clean.

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## canid

i'm a day behind, but today i made a wooden mold from some scrap i had laying around.

i traced the blade shape out on a scrap of one of the cherry lams i use for the bows. this is just a bit thicker than the blade; thick enough to be sturdy in the mold i believe.

after tracing it out, i rough cut it and then sanded it to profile, then beveled it, in an approximation of the grind of the blade.

next, i traced the blade out on a block of white oak scrap, and then scored along the lines with a knife. i used a chisel to carve out the shape of the blade, to a depth a little deeper than the blade is thick, to accomodate the leather for the front panel of the sheath. next time, i use a softer wood. this oak is a pain to carve.

i cut out a rectangle of leather a bit larger than the finished front panel will be, and soaked it in warm water for a while. next, i worked it by hand to soften it up a tad, and make it more pliable. this will allow better penetration of the water.

i am heating the water on the stove top, and will remove the leather once it has sat near a simmer for a few min.

next, i will place it over the female die [the wooden mold i carved out] and place the male die [the blade shaped piece] over the top, centered properly, and then clamp it firmly into place.

the back panel is already cut roughly to shape, and when the front piece is cooled, the two will be fitted together, holes punched, and the two stitched together.

after that, i will form the loop, punch, stitch and proceed to trim it to shape, then burnish smooth again. if i can install a couple rivets, i will.

the next sheath i try will be one of the side seam type.

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## canid

i only half know what i'm doing here, so this will be fun.

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## canid

well, i definitely didn't anticipate this much shrinkage. i don't think i needed to harden the leather at all, as thick as it is. i may have to start over with a new front panel piece.

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## canid

here is the sheath i made, as well as a frog for one of the other knives, for my friend nick.

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i wish the molding showed more definition, but i think i softened the leather too much. it stretched, but it's now very soft and pliant, even after drying. i also should have trimmed the leather better _before_ stitching.

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## Ted

Looks great man! You are one talented dude!

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## canid

thanks ted. i know i'm going to come to regret sacrificing my saddlebags, but honestly i'd like some nicer ones anyway. i have long term plans to design and make some composite hard-bags. that would be the height of slickness.

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## Ted

> thanks ted. i know i'm going to come to regret sacrificing my saddlebags, but honestly i'd like some nicer ones anyway. i have long term plans to design and make some composite hard-bags. that would be the height of slickness.


Bro, you get any slicker you could slide under a door!....LOL!

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## crashdive123

Looking good.  Are you adding straps (almost said thongs) to secure the knives in their sheaths?

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## canid

i'm thinking about it, yeah.

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## canid

well, i've got more than a few in the half done to mostly done range, but here are two more. these are the last two from the steel crash sent me:

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i opted not to make a second of the 4" wavy hunter, so i free-handed one i really like the feel of. i guess it's kind of a nessie.

the large one will probably get a handle just like the original, it's just larger.

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## crashdive123

Nice.  Me likey.

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## welderguy

Nice stuff there canid.

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## Ted

Looking good as usual!

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## canid

one knife i've always wanted to make is a leverletto. that's an itallian stiletto style automatic knife with a lever release, instead of the push button.

because automatic knives are not legal here, i want to make one which has no spring. if i can make certain that this would prevent it from being considered an automatic knife [it would still have to be opened manually, and the lock would serve only to lock it closed, and lock it open], then i'll get started on it. i absolutely love classic switchblade knives, and i used to own a functioning one that was very nice.

here's a picture to show what i'm talking about**:

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i have two panels of that pronghorn hunter sent me which would probably be well suited for scales.

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## canid

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blam!

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## Rick

Very nice. How do the square edges on the handle fit your hand? I like the character of the blade!

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## crashdive123

Very nice!  I like the look with the pitting.

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## canid

thanks rick. the edges are only square [well, finely radiused] on the top, and it's actually quite comfortable.

i liked the handle aesthetically, but i wasn't sold on it til i felt it in my hand.

thanks crash. i noticed that the pitting on this piece went deeper than on the first, so naturally, i kept more of it intact. i'll get more pictures later, you can see on the other side that it even shows still on two places in the blade bevel.

i tried a vinegar patina [almost 3 hours at room temp] on one piece and i notice this steel is quite stain resistant.

i've still got a few things to do with this blade. i need to do the finishing on all the flats [as well as fix a few of them; you can see the two different grinds on the false edge along the back if you look]. i've got to even out the bevels on the water stone, fix the spot where the wood is sanded down to the tang and probably lastly, to apply a few coats of spar and wet sand to 1500.

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## canid

i slapped myself around for about half an hour this morning, after learning an important lesson which should have been self evident:

don't fall asleep with acid on a blade. i didn't ruin it, but i did create myself another couple to several hours of work, and made the pitting on the blade 3-4x deeper. if this steel had not had any corrosion to begin with, it would actually just be a beautiful, dark patina with an attractive blued look. instead, it's an irregular pattern of that look, red rust and blackened pitted areas, themselves surrounded by red rust.

the rust cleans off easily enough, but will return any time the pitted areas hold moisture again. this blade will _have_ to be kept oiled between use.

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## canid

i did make an important realization:

while i've heard a few knifemakers recommend using a wrap of vinegar soaked paper, instead of immersion for forcing a patina, which is certainly useful for doing the proceedure on blades which have already been fitted with a handle; it occurs to me that this is actually a stronger etch. as the vinegar evaporates from the paper, it's acidity rises as acetic acid evaporates at a higher temperature than water [it is actually solid below 62f].

this should make the proceedure more effective for staining higher chromium alloys, if also making it more corrosive, and possibly leading to a more irregular etch/patina in the even of any residual oils on the blade.

this may be a leap of logic, but it seems to be sound, and backed up by how strongly this steel stained with this method, compared to the almost non-existant patination observed with immersion in 3% solution [which was plenty for the two sgian dubh blades i processed].

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## canid

photo of part of the collection, showing the patinas:

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## Rick

Those sure are nice. You did a nice job.

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## gryffynklm

Nice looking knives. 

I don't know if this will work on steel.

So
For a patina on brass I do fuming technique with ammonia.  To antique brass hinges and such I clean any old finish or oil with a solvent like acetone. I use a container that will allow the part to be suspended by a wire hook with out touching the container. In the bottom I put some ammonia, the amount depends on the container size, about 1/2 inch and cover the top. I usually do this in the summer so the container can be put outside in the sun. I check every two hours until i get the patina I want. I rinse off the items and use a past wax to finish it off.

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## crashdive123

They look great.  Very nicely done.

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## hunter63

> photo of part of the collection, showing the patinas:


Very nice, nice to see tham done.
Good job

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Very Well done Canid!! Yours look so nice!!

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## canid

i think i'm happy with the santoku blade, so these might be the final images before it gets a handle. i would like to refine the bevels, so they are symetrical, but honestly, the overall angle is just fine, the blade is thinned well enough to be a good slicer, and as they say; if it ain't broke:

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i just love the blue patina this steel takes.

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## canid

except for the portion towards the tip, it's an almost flat grind on the un-notched side, and since i slice with my right hand, this puts the notches on the proper side, and the bevel there should further aid slicing [e.g. food being sliced should not stick to the knife].

it is slightly distally tapered in addition to the flat grind. i'm sure my next attempt will be executed still better. it began as rather thick stock for a santoku, but this leaves it plenty of mass for light/fine chopping of soft food without much effort [too much force against such a steep blade edge would be detrimental].

overall; i'm happy with the knife, and hope the handle i decide on to do it justice.

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## Camp10

I havnt seen you make an ugly handle yet!!  It looks great Canid, as usual.

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## canid

you aren't looking closely enough  :Big Grin:

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## canid

when it comes to tempering; i keep forgetting something important:

the lady's grandmother was into ceramics/pottery. there is an old electric kiln sitting in the corner of the workshop.

i should fire it up and see what it's temp range is.

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## Rick

In other news.....Central California was hit with a blackout when the power grid was suddenly and unexpectedly melted from granny's kiln being fired up.

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## Camp10

> when it comes to tempering; i keep forgetting something important:
> 
> the lady's grandmother was into ceramics/pottery. there is an old electric kiln sitting in the corner of the workshop.
> 
> i should fire it up and see what it's temp range is.


I can tell you that the kiln I use to heat treat was designed for ceramics and will get to 2100 F!  I can heat treat all steels, stainless and carbon in it and the results are great!  Dig it out and fire it up!

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## Rick

Just be aware of the electric costs for running it. They aren't cheap.

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## canid

yeah; i'm betting this one gets hot too. it draws a looooott of current. it's on it's own 240 circuit on the breaker panel

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## Camp10

> Just be aware of the electric costs for running it. They aren't cheap.


And what's wrong with that? (says the lineman!) :Innocent:

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## canid

with Koa handle:

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propeller warpage from heat treatment:

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i still haven't got the handle shaped quite as i'd like it. beautiful wood though.

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## crashdive123

That's not warpage - that's character.  Nice job.

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## Camp10

To bad about the blade..are you going to try to straighten it?  Looks like it will still work ok like it is.

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## welderguy

I like it , All I'm seeing is character not defects.

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## canid

i'm going to try gently to straighten it slightly  :Big Grin: 

i can't forget what happened to the last blade i tried to straighten, and the defect had been minor to begin with.

as for working as it, it shredded several old cedar 1x8 boards [against the grain] and a likewise weathered 2x4. it'll certainly get the light chopping tasks i wanted it for done.

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## Camp10

> i'm going to try gently to straighten it slightly 
> 
> i can't forget what happened to the last blade i tried to straighten, and the defect had been minor to begin with.
> 
> as for working as it, it shredded several old cedar 1x8 boards [against the grain] and a likewise weathered 2x4. it'll certainly get the light chopping tasks i wanted it for done.


I guess I might just leave it then! :Smile:   Nice job!

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## canid

don't get me wrong, new, dry 2x4 board would have destroyed the blade [it's pretty thin], but yes, i'm pretty happy as long as it get's it's intended job done.

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## canid

started a couple of skinners with that kromedge blade.

these are just cut and ground from the blade. i made certain to cool them [in water] frequently while grinding. i had been a little concerned about harming the temper anyway, until i tried to drill out the pin holes using a cheap, but otherwise serviceable bimetal bit intended for use on metal. i ate half an inch of bit by the time i was 1/4 through the stock. i'd say the temper is just fine.

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4 3/4" overall, 2 13/16" total blade edge, and 5/64" thick.

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## canid

the handle shape could use a little refinement, but it's almost as i want it.

i have to say, as long as the friction heat is dissipated often, and the stock doesn't get too hot, stainless blades from existing, known stock is pretty easy.

basic rules: keep the water in easy arm's reach, and if the metal is just becoming too hot to hold comfortably [near the site of cutting/grinding], it's time to cool. i still have to see how these finished blades hold up.

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## canid

update on the stainless skinners:

i've got one set of the scales made, tapped and dry fitted. now i'm just working on shaping the grip.

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you can see in the second picture that i did overheat the end of the bevel while grinding.

here is a preview of both of them:
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i think the blades are a bit wider than i want them, so removing the softened steel i overheated won't be a problem.
the knives are quite small, as i said; under 5"oa.

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## Julie362

I have one knife and I bought it for a dollar. However, I was awake for a minor surgery on my lower back to remove some scar tissue that had gone down almost to the muscle... Anyways, I smelled them cauterizing my veins. Lovely smell. (Rick is dryheaving, I bet)

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## canid

btw: today was an example of the many times i learn lessons i already knew, shouldn't have needed to be reminded, and yet had to learn again the hard way, by way of a blood sacrafice:

when machining metal, particularly thin sections of metal which have been sharpened along one edge, remember to clamp it down well, firmly and securely.

while tapping out one of the pin holes, i stopped to resharpen and harden the drill bit. i forgot that after doing this, the bit tends to bite instantly, and the risk of projectile workpieces increases significantly. i chose to be lazy and not clamp the blade down, and as a result, i siced through my fingertip, including part of my finger nail.

i had to get the bleeding stopped before resuming any work [nothing worse than bleeding all over a wood surface you've taken pains to keep clean and just sanded smooth.

safety first folks.

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## hunter63

I agree, "stuff happens", you can never be too careful.
Hope it isn't too bad?
Nice job BTW

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## canid

it's not bad. it might get infected under the nail, since my hands where filthy at the time, and under the nail wounds don't breathe too well, but i've gotten worse while shoveling wet manure, so meh.

just a wake up call for my lazy use of power tools.

i'm temporarily out of fresh sanding belts, so these handle scales might go on hold for a couple days. i tend to work on my projects in spurts anyway.

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## crashdive123

Those are looking great!  Glad the lesson wasn't too serious.

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## Ted

Now thats the way I like em! Looks great Canid!

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## pocomoonskyeyes

On pieces that are long enough, instead of clamping I just brace them against the support column of my Drill Press, so that the piece can't spin should the drill bit bind. I haven't worked on anything that small yet, but maybe the same principle would work??? Maybe a bolt(s) through the support rest/table on your drill press? Mine does have long slots that that might work on. I hate clamping my blade to the support rest/Table,as it usually puts the blade at a cant or angle, then my holes that I drill are also at an angle. Just a thought........

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## canid

i don't have a drill press. just a hand drill, a workbench and a scrap of wood to put beneath the workpiece.

generally, anything that positively arrests the workpiece and prevents it's being thrown or grabbed should be used. i was being lazy and working without any such precaution.

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## canid

the second one is about as far along as the first one was yesterday.

the first one is coming along nicely. i'm impressed how much i'm able to get done with the compound curvature with only the disk sander:

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## Ted

Man, that thing just makes me grin! I love that knife! Great work.... as usually!

 Sorry but I'm going to copy it, add a gut hook and use antler scales. I just have too!

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Very nice work Canid!!

I'm sorry I thought you had a drill press,Don't know why, but I did. Perhaps some nails driven in a board?? 4 nails driven in should provide adequate "Bracing".

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## canid

i've got a couple of quick release clamps that work great, when i remember to use them.

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## canid

and ted: none of my craft work posted here is intellectual property; copy away. just make sure to post lots and lots of knife porn while you do it  :Big Grin:

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## Ted

> and ted: none of my craft work posted here is intellectual property; copy away. just make sure to post lots and lots of knife porn while you do it


LOL... Well thank you! Man I going to have to break down and by a camera. The photos of the knives I've made are from me laying them on the scanner,LOL.  Already given away a couple without posting them because the scans were so s****y! Grainny porn sucks!  LOL 

Now granny porn on the other hand....(ooops, did I just type that out loud!!!) :Blushing:  :Blushing:  :Blushing:

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## crashdive123

Well done.  Glad the disc sander is working out for you.

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## canid

love that Koa.

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i would be interested in donating one of this pair for a DOC auction if anybody is game.

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## crashdive123

That's a generous offer.  If you want to, just start a thread like Poco did and then it'll be off to the races.

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## canid

sounds like a plan. first i need to do the finish work, etc.

i think the one on offer will probably be the second blade; i'm not sure much epoxy got between the scales and the pins to stand the test of time.

the pins for the second blade will be roughed up better, and slightly tapered.

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## canid

started a couple more today. i just can't help myself:

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## canid

btw: should we move this to the knife forum?

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## crashdive123

Man!  You sure are becoming a production line.  Nice work.  If you want it moved, I will - fits here in the Making Stuff forum as well.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I really like the Kukri Canid! Good shape work. I was wanting to do one for my next project. I am hung up right now trying to decide if I want to temper after my mineral spirits controlled quench, which seems to have worked well. I left the edge the thickness of a dime for heattreat and have now taken it to a convex edge using a wet stone. It seems to take an edge good. May have to do some tests before I mount the scales...

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## canid

ease in taking an edge is half the battle. 

thickness of a dime is way thicker than you should need to leave it for heat treat. i think you're just making more work for yourself.

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## Camp10

I would temper it CS!  When I was experimenting with that steel, I quenched in animal fat (because I figured that's how 200 year old steel should be quenched) and I was very surprised how hard I was able to get it.  I think I send the method I used and the hardness I measured when I was done.  I cant remember the numbers off hand but It was very hard and very brittle after quench.

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## canid

update and a new one:

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i can't stop myself.

of course i'm not satisfied with that bevel on the bottom one. i'll work on it quite a bit more. that's what happens when you get into too much of a hurry.

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## Camp10

Canid, are the marks on the top blade for a fuller?  Nice job!

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## canid

that was my desire, but this stock is really too thin for my liking, and i don't think i could grind in a fuller without risk of cutting through.

i think i'll just keep the template i made for this blade and do it again the next time i have thicker stock.

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## canid

note to self:

glue up scales _before_ sanding pins flush!

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## canid

i got my hands on a couple old steel bed rails. i've cut out a few blanks, and started another blade from the template i was talking about earlier.

it's just like the top one in the last pic, though the blade is a hair wider, and this stock is a little thicker.

the stock has nice sparks, and i've heard those rails tend to be simple steel. i'm thinking in the .60% C range, at a wild guess. i'll be hardening the first one soon enough, and i'll try an oil quench first, i think.

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## Camp10

> i got my hands on a couple old steel bed rails. i've cut out a few blanks, and started another blade from the template i was talking about earlier.
> 
> it's just like the top one in the last pic, though the blade is a hair wider, and this stock is a little thicker.
> 
> the stock has nice sparks, and i've heard those rails tend to be simple steel. i'm thinking in the .60% C range, at a wild guess. i'll be hardening the first one soon enough, and i'll try an oil quench first, i think.


They are a higher carbon steel but I dont know the range either.  I am very interested in what you come up with on your heat treat, I have a pile of them upstairs in the garage just doing nothing. :Innocent:

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## canid

if they turn out to be something comparable to 1060, they'll make good practice for differential tempering and playin' with clay  :Big Grin:

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## canid

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Having cut some scrap bed rail...I'd say your right it isn't A36...something with a little more carbon maybe....

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## canid

definitely more carbon then mild steel. it's almost certainly as rolled, it's only slightly hard, so it seems to be that would probably make it hot rolled.

in it's state, i get some pretty impressive single splitting of the spall when i grind it. as far as i know, that indicates a pretty good carbon content.

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## canid

to show you what i mean; here's a comparison:

here is a known mild steel nail:
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and here is the bed rail, as is:
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when i do the heat treat, i'll do an extra piece to show one of the bed rail after normalizing, and then after hardening.

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## canid

it hardens well in oil [the file wouldn't cut it for removing the scale on the bevel, and i had to use a sanding block]. i'm charging up the camera batteries now. i forgot to do it last night.

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## canid

post heat treat:
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and after cleanup:
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i'm also getting started on the scales today. i think i've got a friend comming by today to see about hand fitment, so this knife might be sold.

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## canid

sharpening and polishing a bevel this hard is an enourmous PITA. the guy intends to cut rope with it though, so it's either this, or he'll be dressing it every 3 cuts.

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## canid

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## crashdive123

Very nicely done.

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## canid

next one is shaping up to be a clip point version of the same knife:

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## canid

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and the next crop, also slight modifications to the template used for the last one:

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## Camp10

It looks like you have developed your own unique style!  I like the handle shape, nice work!

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Nice!!! You have quite the assortment of blades!!

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## crashdive123

Looks like you should be about ready to set up a table at the next knife show.

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## canid

not yet, but maybe in a year or two [if i go on spending half of my time working on them, as i have been].

i think that when i can round up a decent part time job [walmart looks like they blew me off], i can put a little more cash into the workshop, and will be able to do a good many things better or more efficiently.

between this and the bows, i can't wait to have a steadier flow of resources.

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## canid

i've got a couple of blades which will be ready for the heat treat tomorrow, so i thought i'd try something new to me.

i'm going to try for my first differential temper.

i excavated some more subsoil, and crumbled it well. i sifted it out through a fine sieve to remove most of the humic matter, and filled a mason jar 4/5 full. i added water until all the air in the soil was displaces, and skimmed off everything that floated, to remove most of the rest of the humus.

i placed the lid on the jar, and shook it well for about 5 min, then sat it down to settle. i let it settle for half an hour, then slowly poured off most of the water, along with the little remainder of organic material. i gave it another brisk shake, and set it back down again to settle, this time until the water was pretty much clear.

the sand and clay stratafied, with the vast majority of the coarser sand and the fine iron and other dense components settling out first, to the very bottom. next, most of the fine sand, and almost all the rest of the coarse stuff. next, the remainder of the fine sand/silt, along with much of the inorganic clay. lastly, the remainder of the inorganic clay, along with the very finest of the organic material, which is very hard to get rid of by this method. this 'organic muck' is the stuff often confused with real clay, and for our purposes, i believe it is fine.

i carefully poured the water, and the top layer of clay which readily returned to suspension onto a flat surface [in this case, the bottom half of a pizza box], letting the excess water run out.

being greedy [trying to recover as much of the clay as possible, i reached my hand into the jar to scoop out much of the clay which did not go back into suspension in the water. this is where the bulk of the clay ends up, and i didn't want to go through a second separatory process. as a result, i believe i ended up with a lot of the fine sand still in my clay.

i scooped out the bbq grill, and dumped out the ash from the forge, and passed these through the fine sieve, over the clay mixture, mixing it in afterward.

to thicken this up, and add still more plastic material to the mix, i also added some fine wood dust from behind my sander. this doubtless contained a lot of fine steel dust as well.

i mixed these in well, and the wood dust turned out to be coarser than i had supposed. next time i will sift only the very finest of this material out as well.

with the mix stiffer and gritter than i has hoped, i figured i'd give it a shot anyway. i spread it on the blade with a piece of bamboo [thicker than i should have], and began to run a fine splinter of wood over the bevel, scooping off the excess clay mixture. i next made a second pass, taking quasi-regular 'dips' to remove extra clay from small parts of the side of the blade further than the line of the bevel. this did not work well wtih the material being as i said, too stiff. i managed to get the job done, with a poor looking line, and way too thick a layer of clay on the blade.

in between sides, i used my heat gun to speed the drying process, so my goop didn't fall off, but so i didn't have to wait long. even with such rapid partial drying there is no sign of cracking.

this is set by to dry overnight, after which i will give it a full drying, again with the heat gun, and it will be heat treated tomorrow if all turns out well.

because it turned out so thick, just after it is dry, i am going to carefully remove much of the thickness by gentle sanding. i figure if the clay flakes off during this procedure,  it probably would have flaked off during firing or quenching.

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i have no idea how reasonable my choice and proportions of components in the mixture are, but i have heard of each of them being used, unless i'm mistaken, and they should keep it nice and plastic, plenty 'sticky' and insulative enough.

wish me luck, and don't hesitate to add any recommendations if you will.

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## canid

heat treat today:

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and out of the quench, wtih the bevels cleaned up:

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i got a good head start on cleaning the little one up, because i'm going crazy waiting to see of a hamon was produced.

i managed to sand it down to a reasonable thickness, and smoothe out the fine cracks with my finger and a few drops of water. i believe there was far too much combustable material [wood dust and carbon rich ash], as it was soft and punky when it came out of the forge, and mostly crumbled away during immersion.

i have only drawn the temper on the small one. the other two will be done shortly; i wanted to play around with tempering by heat-gun.

i've spent the last hour working the small blade on the stones, and i do think i begin to see slight hints of a hamon developing; it's so far just faint suggestions of what look like the ashi. the steel is not nearly smooth enough yet to be sure.

i'm going to polish it to 1500grit paper, and rub on some mild vinegar after that.

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## canid

what i'll do next time is mix the clay mixture i already have 50/50 with fresh clay. it should be the right consistency at a much lower water content that way anyway, and should stick better.

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## canid

starting a light duty draw-knife today. here it is, shaping it out:

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next will be to hot-form the bends for the handle bits, and then to heat treat, make the handles and sharpen.

overall length is 17" before bending. blade length is 5".
because of the thin stock, this will be for light use [no using as a pry bar while shaving]. it won't take the stresses of rough use. the next one i make will probably be twice as thick, suitable for roughing bow staves, debarking logs, ect.

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## Camp10

I have wanted to make one also but I am not sure how to go about the heat treat.  It looks tricky to get the blade hard but leave much of the rest normalized.  Can you show your quench to this when you do it?  I'm looking for ideas.

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## crashdive123

Pretty cool.  Now finish that puzzle.

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## canid

basically, i just intend to normalize the whole thing after forming, and for hardening, i need only heat up the blade portion.

since the whole piece is much longer than my forge, i will just heat only the blade over the top of the forge, moving it around to keep the heat even, and then quench.

since i expect this steel will air harden a bit in smaller cross sections, i expect slight hardening of the handle bits, and the heat that is conducted to the portion nearest the blade while i heat treat the blade will probably temper that area back a bit [this is where most of the stress will be concentrated during use].

Crash: that's my lady's puzzle; she'd probably murder me.

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## Camp10

So you are going to quench the whole thing but try to keep the heat limited to the blade edge?

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## canid

you got it.

not only the blade edge, the whole blade, just not the handle bits, since they don't need to be hardened.

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## canid

never spill vinegar on an unfinished knife and fail to notice it overnight:

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there's a pretty good chance it's toast, cosmetically speaking.

it seems to be cleaning up fairly well [thank goodness the scales are stabilized], but we'll see how it comes out.

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## your_comforting_company

I think it adds character.
If there are any oak trees down around you, you can cook up a liquor from the bark to black the blade and you might also consider using pickling lime to neutralize any that soaked into it.

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## crashdive123

Looks like you might be in for a bit of hand sanding.

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## canid

more than a bit, this stuff is a royal PITA to get smooth. at least it takes a pretty low luster finish, so it doesn't take as much polishing.

the discoloration has permeated some residual voids in the grain of the scales. it doesn't look bad, but now i wonder if i should abuse the rest of the handle wood and sand it down, so that it all matches. that might actually look good.

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## canid

I'm taking a couple of these knives by a local sporting shop to see if they'll sell them for me.

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## crashdive123

Good luck!

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## panch0

I am sure they will take them and they will sell quickly. Good luck!

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## canid

i'm not doing much knife work at the moment, owing to other projects, but i have been playing around with a couple handles in the puukko style.

i thought i'd show one.

glued up some thin cherry to two small pieces of padauk, and shaped a piece of slightly figured walnut:
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and cut two pieces of antler down to form the bulk of the handle:
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glued them up and began to shape:
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and this is more or less the contour i'm going for, or possibly brought even narrower towards the front, with a less pronounced flare:
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i think it could use some wrought iron plate for a butt and bolster cap. i don't have a blade to go with it at the moment.

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## canid

i'm working on another with antler, padauk, koa and metal spacers [i'd like to find some nickel, but i'll go with anything light colored and lustrous.

as soon as i can rip some board from this walnut, some of it has some mild spalting [or whatever a more suitable term is for the spalting like effect that walnut gets in it's heartwood] and one side of the half-round is a bit curly/birdseyed. all in all, not staggeringly figured, but not too ugly either. i look forward to working some handles and scales wtih it.

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## crashdive123

That is awesome.  It sure will make a dandy looking knife.

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## Erratus Animus

I like that handle as well.

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## canid

bah. i'm restoring a sword for a good friend's wedding this morning, and at the moment i'm hand stitching a sheath. now i know why you can't even get Taiwanese kids to do this without a machine.

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## Erratus Animus

> bah. i'm restoring a sword for a good friend's wedding this morning, and at the moment i'm hand stitching a sheath. now i know why you can't even get Taiwanese kids to do this without a machine.


I have those moments. I fudged a bit when I said I cant make a sheath. More like I wont lol.

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## crashdive123

Canid - what ever happened with the draw knife?

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## canid

It is somewhere, presumably in storage by now, at a friends house along with several of my finished and mostly finished knives. He is in Chile for several months or more.

i did make a new handle for that crooked knife though.

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## canid

several things about this attempt could use some practice and refinement, and i'm not nearly finished, but here's where this knife is at:

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in all this is serving as a good lesson in how to do, and how not to do such a knife in the future. i look forward to doing a _good_ composite sheath next time, though i absolutely have to spiff this one up a bit, since i used the last good piece of padauk for it.

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## Winter

Nice work Canid. I'm liking many of your designs, and, like myself, you scrounge steel.

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## canid

yeah, i love to scrounge/recycle steel, and to rescue broken and neglected blades.

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## canid

now the adhesives are set better, and the leather is dry, so it's taken it's permanent shape and hardened back up a tad. the fitment is good, with the top of the leather upper fitting the mid-handle perfectly the lower portion of the upper did not contract as tightly against the wood of the sheath as i had hoped, so i'll probably wet that back down and try again.

for now, i'm glad i can still get it off easily, as i forgot to flare the slot where the blade enteres the wood/antler, so that it slides in readily and does not hang out.

i'll have to take some sort of rigid, but non-brittle adhesive to the upper and lower portion of the leather upper, to stiffen it up enough to make it sandable. i want to taper the lower portion so that the bottom edge sits flush against the surface.

the upper portion i would either like to round off by sanding, or if the leather will stretch further, do a rolled seam.

still gotta sand the profiles of the wood down, for better taper and to remove bulk where appropriate.

i soaked the wood in polyurethane sealant by immersion, so i'm sure it's well penetrated. i didn't mean this to be a finish, which is why i let it get all dingy before taking the picture.

i'm stuck with the visible glue-lines on this knife, as i didn't get my surfaces well mated.

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## canid

so this is still not my best work, but it's coming right along:

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the lady likes it well enough that she had to have it when it's done, so i'll probably be making another stand for the bookshelf in the living room.

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## Camp10

Looks real good Canid!!

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## canid

thank you. i tell you one thing, i'll never be much at engraving antler.

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## crashdive123

It came out great.  Well done.

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## canid

i'll get a final picture when i get the chance. i'm starting a new puukko today. the blade is from that bed-rail stock and for the handle i'm starting with some nice light mullberry. i'm probably going to go with an all, or mostly leather sheath on this one, and i'm trying to come up with ideas for handle embellishment.

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## canid

starting some handles for a couple old blades [the crash L6 stock], and the new little puukko:

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this is the figured walnut i mentioned before. most of it's boring, but there's some great character and some curling in there. i don't have a working power saw at the moment, so my only recourse is splitting and sanding flush, which is a killer when trying to conserve the limited curly areas [the split follows the curls and i have to grind so much of it away it hurts].

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## Erratus Animus

that walnut is beautiful, I know what you mean about having to cut it too. I save every scrap of exotic wood from building bows  for my handles. That stuff just doesn't grown on cheap trees anymore  :Smile:

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## canid

seriously. i feel horrible too, because i cut that darn tree down myself 2 years ago, for a friend, and all but a 26" rounder about 14" diameter went into their firewood stall. same with a bunch of fruitless mulberry with some great gnarled crotches.

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## crashdive123

Looking forward to seeing the end results.

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## canid

handle for the puukko; still shaping:

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i should have used a spacer of contrasting material, because the antler and mulberry seem to run together. i suppose i'll have to do that for the next two.

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## crashdive123

That sure is purdy.

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## canid

i learned some things about mulberry:

1.) if it is not dry enough, it does not power sand for spit.
2.) if it is dry enough, it scorches at the slightest touch of an almost new sanding disk.
3.) both states seem to exist in different depths of the same piece, since it has only been seasoning since last fall.

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## crashdive123

Not having worked with wood too much, I have quickly found that it is soooooo easy to burn it when shaping with the belt sander.

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## panch0

Nice job Candid!

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## Rick

Very nice, Canid!!

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## canid

got the blade finished, with an initial edge and i've sealed the handle. just needs wet sanded til it shines, and for the leather to be trimmed/sanded flush with the handle.

i have a friend who might want to buy it, but if not, i think i'll be doing another hard-sheath to go with it.

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working on the other two more tomorrow. i heat treated and beveled 5 blades today.

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## canid

i think i need to start angling the tangs a bit, so they follow the lines of the handles.

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## Rick

Pretty darn nice. I like the Puukko design. Good luck on the sale. He'll have a very nice knife.

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## canid

he might want one of the other ones, i'm not sure yet. i'm having a lot of fun with the puukkos, so i'm definitely going to just keep on making 'em.

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## crashdive123

That turned out great.

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## Erratus Animus

Those look good to me!.

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## p moore

Great work, I have seen a lot of good looking knives on this thread. 

Paul

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## canid

thank you all.

i keep working on my finishing, which i would say is my biggest shortcoming.

i would say i'm getting pretty darned good at heat treating in a wood/charcoal fire.

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## p moore

I know what you mean. When you pull one out of the oven, seems you are only half way done. 

Paul

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## canid

yeah. with the fine finishing, it feels like even by the time they are all assembled they are only half done.

sometimes, i'm trying to find a way to pull off a rough finished look and even that turns out to be just as much work.

like those blades where i haven't ground down through all the mill scale inclusions, or pitting, the surface work seems like it should require less attention, but it works out to be about the same as all the pre-polish work on any other blade, or ends up looking janky.

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## canid

the more i search around online, the more i wonder why - quality for quality - pattern welded steel bar costs almost exactly the same as the finished knives made from material of the same dimmensions. high end art knives aside of course.

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## panch0

Lookin good Candid. I have never built a hidden tang knife. You are ahead of the game.

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## canid

i've been doing a couple of them lately. peening is still proving a challenge to me though.

here's the one i'm working on right now:
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i wish i had the belt sander up and running, i have to do the concave contours with paper on a dowel. not so great for sanding down into the metal spacers. the middle piece is 3 layers of leather, which i plan to reapply a dye to after the shaping is done.

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## crashdive123

Man, that looks great and like it would be a real comfortable fit in the hand.

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## canid

i'm still shaping it a bit, a little at a time. i want this one to have a really good, natural feel in the hand while preserving a refined profile, so i don't want to force it [read: i'd like to be able to get a decent dollar for this one].

i mixed up some fine sanding dust and glue paste to fill one of the voids, which is drying now.

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## Winter

I'm liking that recurve blade alot.

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## canid

finished shaping and got the first coat of spar on there and a wet sanding. also re-shaped the handle on the puukko so it's not so big and clunky. i like the dimensions of both of these handles a great deal more now:

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## crashdive123

They came out great.

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## Rick

Those are two good looking knives. Nice job!

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## canid

by the way: that krome edge [proprietary steel used in some craftsman circular saw blades] steel is water hardenable, and seemed to behave pretty stably, with no warpage, and little movement at all on quench.

i did not normalize before heat treat and it's pretty tough and flexible.

i didn't get my hardening heat even on the nessie, so there are some softspots and i might redo it.

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## canid

Here's some more of that walnut. I've been cutting this by hand, and I must say it's a PITA, but I'd still call it rewarding.

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I'm still learning to cut it for getting the most from the figure.

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