# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Living Off The Land Permanently

## wareagle69

speaking from personall experience i would choose flagstaff arizona.

 as a us citizen u have the right to live in the national forest for 30 days at a time then must move for 15 days. flag staff has two forest the coconinno and the kiabab i lived in my truck w/ a camper on the back if a ranger sees you emphasis on if then your time starts then just go across town to the differnt national forest plus you are close to town for day labor and food kitchens also if you go deeper i forest most likely never be seen even if you do have a fire who cares it's a forest lots of ppl camp.

 now if you are looking to set up camp/ permanete shelter look at idaho/sawtooth mountains or alaska.

 go to www.aloneinthewildernes.com  see what richard prenoke did my hero.

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## RobertRogers

Yes, it is possible though you have to be careful not becoming an ecological disaster.  It can take a fair amount of natural resources to support a person in the wild.

I suggest making a number of low-key debris huts throughout the forest, staying in each for only a week or less before moving on.  Cycle though them.  Do some fishing in each area, a little trapping, then move on.  In that way you don't make it too obvious someone is actually living for the long term in any one spot and you give the wildlife a chance to make a comeback while you are away.

The trapping part is problematic, though.  People can find your traps and you will need a permit - without which you may find yourself a hunted man.

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## owl_girl

I used to live in Alaska and there are people that live like that up there. I didnt know all the laws but I know theres ways to legally do that.

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## wareagle69

www.aloneinthewilderness.com
also look at timothy treadwell

 lots of ppl just disappear up there.    Idaho is a great place to just dissapear.actually that just reminded me of a website type in how to disappear see what you get.

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## wareagle69

i just googled squatters rights in alaska and also how to live off the land in alsaka.. interestingly enough only 20% of alsaka is populated and allot of empty cabins along the coast line doubt you would get arrested for living in one, but with all that unused country i suppose one could build a shelter under the brush and trees and never be bothered again thou if you do that write a daily journel so if something happens we can read your travels and on the other hand if ya do it for a few yrs it would make a great book to read.


    always be prepared

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## owl_girl

You could probably go years without seeing another human up there if you wanted to. You can still get free or really cheap land in Alaska you know.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Homes...t-Program.aspx

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green...01/Alaska.aspx

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## RobertRogers

It might be difficult to subsist for long periods of time with zero resupply.  The ideal location would have towns within a day's walking distance and enough influx of tourists so that a new face in town is not even noticed.

In many rural areas if you walk into town once every couple of months the locals are going to put 2 and 2 together and figure you are living out in the woods.  They will wonder what you are up to and chances are someone is going to get curious and look you up.

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## wareagle69

that's the beauty of flagstaff lot's of tourists and ppl staying short times there hard to get noticed..

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## wareagle69

buy the book best flagstaff day hikes, gives you tons of area to get lost in.

 i lived off the land there for three months in the mid 90's hiding out, you can build shelters in the canyons out of small boulders around a lean to  and cover you fire very well as long as it is an indian fire and not a white mans fire..

        always be prepared.

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## pilgrim

Wow i really hope this dream of yours works out for you!  Thats always been my "plan b" if things dont work out...

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## Crash

I concur about Flagstaff. It's really a gorgeous location that seems to be busy almost year-round. A 2nd choice would be Gatlinburg, TN. It's like a Flagstaff of the South.

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## corndog-44

Otay with the attitude you have now you won't last long in the wilderness. Already you're talking about getting back to town. Start out like wareagle and live off the land for 3 months, then take it from there. Good luck living your dream.

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## jose lobo

to survive , in Alaska or Oregen can be done, but it is cold and wet, 
a growing season is short, and big brother is way to close for comfort , it has good game hunting and nice views, for sure. i dont understand why anyone would stay in the USA to survive,  there are way to many people. with the fat quad hunters,  zooming from one peak to another. and helicopters over head, just looking around. there really is no where up there to hide.   im sure there are hiding spots. but not enof.. but Brazil,, now we are talking!

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## jose lobo

nice links,, thanks

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## owl_girl

> to survive , in Alaska or Oregen can be done, but it is cold and wet, 
> a growing season is short, and big brother is way to close for comfort , it has good game hunting and nice views, for sure. i dont understand why anyone would stay in the USA to survive,  there are way to many people. with the fat quad hunters,  zooming from one peak to another. and helicopters over head, just looking around. there really is no where up there to hide.   im sure there are hiding spots. but not enof.. but Brazil,, now we are talking!


Theres lots of uninhabited land in AK, land you can disappear in, plenty of places to hide. Places where you cant hear or see any sign of humanity or people. There are not even a lot of roads in Alaska. It depends on where in AK you are.

As far as cold and wet goes Alaskas a big place and it has many climates, some parts are really dry especially up north. If youre taking about southeast AK like Ketchikan well the weather is very wet since it is a temperate rainforest and the winter temperatures average in the 30's which for a temperate zone that far north is pretty reasonable. The growing season is short but some things thrive up there like berries and rhubarb for example.

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## wareagle69

crash, you have a point about gatlinburg beautiful area i only know what i saw of it for a week so not much experience like flagstaff.

 corndog, i would not say he has a defeatist attitude. even my uncle who trapped and lived off the land up where i have now taken over would walk across the ice or paddle the 20 miles to the main road the walk 6 miles to town once a month to resupply with the basics.

 when i lived in flagstaff, there was lots of times that i would work day labor jobs for cash eat at a church then go back to the bush some times i would spend a week near town then other times go deep country.

 if you cannot farm then you will need to resupply. black barts truck stop is a good place to shower and shave then watch some tv catch up then disappear again. if i had to hide out again that's a good choice. not my first anymore but a good one nonetheless..

  always be prepared..

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## RobertRogers

> Any idea of the best "stealthy" shelter to make?  I like the idea of flagstaff or at least some place like it, where I would go unnoticed when I came into town to get some things.  I'd like to make some sort of long term shelter with a fire pit inside that would be hard to notice even if you were standing right next to it.  Am I being unrealistic?


Like I wrote, a debris hut would do nicely and you can just about walk on top of it without knowing it is there.  Neophytes would think "log cabin".  This is wrong - stick out like a sore thumb from the ground or in the air.

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## Beo

Head up into Northern Montana or Western Canada, Alaska would be great too, just go way out and I mean waaaay out and build a small cabin. Dig down bout a foot or two and then log it up, will take some time but use debris hut till finished. The most that will happen iis they ask you to move. Nothing is impossible, only our mind is limited to what we think we can do. Once there hunt for food (deer, elk, moose, rabbit, squirrel, beaver, ect.) but ya gotta know how to clean them, cook them, preserve them, so ya need a storage shed (or smoke house or freezer in the winter, and salt for preserving), for long term (life) living ya gonna need cookware, cast iron skillets, and a big cast iron pan, bags for storing and etc. It can be done but is very hard to just walk off and do. Take plenty of preperation time. It was done along time ago so it can be done now with the preperations.

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## Beo

Oxbow Mountains.

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## Beo

There in with the Montana beartooth mnts. and bitterroot mnts.

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## Beo

Part of the rockies

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## Beo

Pack horse, after arriving I'd sell everything I didn't need (car and what nots) take that money and get my pack hores and supplies (take some good wilderness survival books along) and trek out till I lost everyone, more than twenty miles.
NOTE OF CAUTION*** Otay you need to be a very experienced survivalist to attempt this knd of living, it will be rough, I mean stomach pain hunger dying in the wilderness rough, if you fail.

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## Beo

If you got the money Tom Brown Jr. has a school in New Jersey, called Tracker school and several really good books. I'd try his classes they are really great.

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## trax

> at least a year to 5 years maybe more but definately not less that I do this.  I want to get some real hands on training in tanning, butchering, and maybe meet up with a native american who can make clothes out of hides, and of course immersing myself in survival knowledge.


that sounds a lot more realistic than some of what I've read on here. I'd also suggest to anyone trying this, read up on log home building. It looks real sexy in the movies, but most log cabins over the last couple of centuries...quite a bit draftier. There's some serious learning attached to doing a good job and some modern day improvements to the construction process that are worth learning. There's plenty of info out there on all of these subjects.

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## jose lobo

for a nice warm shelter, that last about a year, and is easy to build ,, i once dragged 150 bails of hay into BLM, 
stack them into a 2 room form, with a mud room,,,,
put a lot of poles on the roof at an angle, and covered them with plastic,, then took about 5 bails, open them up and though them all on the plastic roof, then thought a camo tarp over the whole thing,, drag a small pot belly up there, and enjoyed a  warm home for about 9 months,, then i  pulled off the plastic ,, pushed all th bails into the center, and lite then up for a nice big bon fire, not to hard to clean up.

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## Smok

Have you ever notated that people very seldom move very far off a trail when they go out for a hike you can be right under their nose and no one would see you IF you look like you fit in.. when you go to town be clean very clean!!!

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## trax

> Have you ever notated that people very seldom move very far off a trail when they go out for a hike you can be right under their nose and no one would see you IF you look like you fit in.. when you go to town be clean very clean!!!



Yeah, that's why I keep that squirrel outfit handy. I slip that on and it fools them everytime. If some kid points out the six foot squirrel to his parents, I just roar and they run away crying...that works too.

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## Beo

I like to dress as a giant 6'4" tall skunk and go around farting if someone notices  :Big Grin:  keeps the bad element away... lol...  :Big Grin:

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## explodingearth

i am having such a hard time finding a place to go practice! everything is very far possible not even in my state. i dont know what to do. its like i stay here, or a take a deep end plunge across the country into the wild, which is the only route considering im ****ing done with society

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## FVR

It looks like you are going from one extreme to the next.  You don't have to go clear across the country to hit mountains, you have them about 6 hours away.  They are called the Appalachian mountains and many of us here live at the base of them.  

Funny, looking at the "where ya from" thread, alot of us foothill Appalachian dwellers here, running right up from South to North.

In S. Ga. there are a few Nat'l forests that you can venture into.  You don't have to go deep into the swamps either.

Here are 3 National forests in Florida, take your pick.  http://goflorida.about.com/od/florid...al_Forests.htm

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## trax

There's a lot you can learn from experienced people in these forums partner, and you seem to be soaking it up pretty fast too, but there's one thing I think you need to learn and the only place you're going to pick it up is out there in the bush....patience.

I can certainly appreciate your point of view about having had enough of "society", but know what? It isn't going to get that much worse or totally collapse in the next little while. Keep practicing where you're practicing, make longer trips out of it, when it's time for you to make your move, whether it's the Rockies or the Appalachians or anywhere else, you'll know and you'll be ready. 

And if you think Mother Earth and her minions won't teach you patience, try sitting on the edge of a half frozen swamp just after a nice October rain waiting for a moose to peek out from behind a bush, knowing that getting that shot is esential to having meat for the winter. Better not have shaking hands when you squeeze that trigger too....

You'll get there and it'll have  been worth the "wait".

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## explodingearth

national forests are highly regulated. if i go into there with weapons and fire? free ticket rto prison. ive explored ALL the woods in my area and most of the time i have run into trouble or WILL soon. all maintained by govt or state people

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## FVR

So honestly, where are you going to go out west?  It's all gov. land.  If you had friends with private land, you would be there already.

On one thread you talk bad about those who hunt, the next thread you don't want to go to a Fla. national forest because you want to shoot your pee shooter.

If you had a hunting license, then you could legally take game with a variety of firearms or traps during the regulated seasons.  That is what most of us do.  

You seem to throw up barriers all over the place.  

Primitive living be it for survival or for a hobby takes work.  To me, it seems that you just keep coming up with excuses.

Guess, I'm just being an as shole again.

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## Smok

No FVR  I get the same-thing from explodingearther   too  wishy washy ... explodingearther you need to stop and rethink what you plan to do.. do not just give up on this world and go live in the hills come and go with 1 or 2 of us . This  e-mail is not enough we well help teach you  but for now on going off to live by your self you need some teaching OK ???? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## explodingearth

FLORIDA: Trespass while in possession of a firearm is a felony punishable by imprisonment for up to five years and/or a fine up to $5,000. A person who knowingly propels or causes to be propelled any potentially lethal projectile over or across private land without authorization also commits felony trespass. A potentially lethal projectile includes any projectile launched from any firearm, bow, crossbow or similar tensile device.

not to mention arson.

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## FVR

Florida has over 150 public hunting areas.  Of that, over 70 have camping areas.  Those camping areas vary, but there are some that allow camping throughout the area, or in the designated camping spots.

I live across the street from a WMA in Ga.  Right now, deer season is in throughout the state, yet at the WMA the deer season is only two times, 4 days each.  The rest of the time it is small game season.

Now, I hate this, but it's the way it is.  I can walk over there and and hunt small game and hogs and camp if I want to.  They are not allowing fires right now as the draught has put the kybosh on that.

There is a year round trout stream in the WMA.  I want to trap or spear fish, but alas, the regs say that is illegal.  So, I walk back and find pools that hold fish.  I study how I can isolate the pool so that if I needed to spear a fish, I could.  Then I throw a little spoon in the pool and coax one into biting.  Then I will make a little fire (when allowed) and cook it right up.

Survival skills are what "you" make of them.  Unfortunately, in this day and age, we must follow gov. regs even though we may not agree with them.  The days of walking off into the wild and doing what you want are basically over.  Oh, you can do it, you will be breaking fed. laws and like those who have done this, you will either be hunted down and taken to jail or killed in a shoot out in some remote hill country somewhere.

Survival is knowing your environment and determining what you can and can not do in that environment to survive.

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## HOP

Most National Forest land is wide open for hunting and camping with in the laws for game and respect for fire. Here in WV there are plenty of wilderness and national forest that are always open.
Get out in them everglades look for some clubs get a canoe for your first set of outings you can carry more stuff until you can refine your skills. (Just do it.)

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## trax

> Get out in them everglades look for some clubs get a canoe for your first set of outings you can carry more stuff until you can refine your skills. (Just do it.)


That's what I'm trying to tell you too double e, all the things you want to charge off and do, you're not near ready and yet you don't seem to want to take the steps to prepare yourself.

Guns? Are you trained? Have you ever shot a live animal? It looks a lot easier on video than it is, all those hunting/shooting videos are edited to not show you all the things that can go wrong.

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## Beo

> That's what I'm trying to tell you too double e, all the things you want to charge off and do, you're not near ready and yet you don't seem to want to take the steps to prepare yourself.
> Guns? Are you trained? Have you ever shot a live animal? It looks a lot easier on video than it is, all those hunting/shooting videos are edited to not show you all the things that can go wrong.


Not to mention edited to fit a time frame, and skinning an animal the first time can tricky, nix the gun thing too many people depending on guns, do it easy with a knife and your kit and just go out and keep trying till you get it, if I had the everglades here I'd be gone for days and wouldn't take a gun.
As said: Just go do it. Things take time to learn but you can't learn until you try, and failing is not failure if you learn from the mistake.

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## FVR

Those videos, LOL.

They don't show the work, after the shot.

Tracking - if needed.
Fiel dressing - aka gutting.
Skinning - if needed.
Butchering - the easy way.
Transporting - I wonder what so and so is doing today, this here hog looks alot bigger now.

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## trax

FVR's post just reminded me. A couple of months ago I was talking with a buddy and his father-in-law, a man who could forget more than I know about hunting and tracking and still out do me at it, ( a man I obviously very much respect) asked me how old I am. I answered 49.

"When I was your age, I could still pack the hind quarters of a moose 2 miles out of the bush" he told me.

I answered, "Yes sir, I can still do that." Then, I had to ask myself cuz it had been awhile, but yeah...I can, but it ain't fun like it was when I was 20 lmao.

And sure as hell, I'm paying for it the next day. I think most of those videos come from canned hunts, anyway. I just hope to **** that double e is paying attention to this stuff, I for one would love to see him succeed, he seems to have gotten past pi##ed off anyway, just don't settle for grumbling and complaining.

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## FVR

I shot this pocket hog awhile back.  Pocket hog is a hog you can throw over your shoulder.

Shot the critter with my bow at a distance of 30 yards.  Hog ran about 20 yards and died.  I waited even though I heard the last blow out.

I sneak over to get the critter, there is this 200 plus pound hog standing over the 70 pounder I shot.  She is just standing there, chomping her jowls.  Now I have a nocked arrow, I'm ready to shoot, two hogs in oneday.

In a split second;
That's alot of meat, where am I going to put it?
That's alot of meat, how am I going to eat it?
That's alot of pig, how am I going to get it out of the woods?
That's alot of work, alot pork, and right now alot of mean pig standing 10 yards away.

I backed out of the thickets slowly, walked back to the stand, made a cup of tea, and waited an hour.

Then I went and picked up my pocket hog, gutted, and through him over my shoulder and went home.  Where he was skinned, butchered, packed, and prepared to smoke.

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## trax

Nice work, man. Similarly, I was out hunting with my partner up north, many years ago. We were tracking and lost the tracks, hopped in the canoe and followed along the shoreline til we picked them up again. We split up ....I started following the tracks and he noticed a bunch of broken down tall grass near a swamp. I'm half way up a hill when I hear his rifle, he nailed a cow moose. She was knee deep in water (illegal for me, but he has treaty hunting rights) took us hours to get her up to where we could gut her out. We're still working on it when I heard the bull grunt, right from where I was first headed up that hill. We tried calling him out, but we'd made too much noise or he picked up our scent, wouldn't come. By the time we had that cow cut up and loaded in the canoe, we were both grateful that he hadn't. We had plenty of meat and it would have been another day's work if we'd got him too, (Paddling her back out to the truck and coming back for him)

The gunwales of the canoe were shipping about an inch and a half above the water so there's no way we could have loaded two of them in there.

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## FVR

Take what you need, eat what you take.

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## trax

I read FVR's posts about hog hunting it's making me more and more want to go out and shoot one. It's the only game we have wide open no license required season on here in Manitoba and there's quite a few around this area. I'm just avoiding it because all the Elmer Fudd's are out there right now blasting away at anything that moves. I don't think I look like a deer, but....

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## Smok

My cousin is a Sheff officer 7 years age wail bow hunting  he was shoot with a arrow from no more then 50 feet and he does not look like a deer . Yes he's fine now , funny thing when the man run up to him , he told the guy don't cut my throat to bleed me out .The man past out...

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## trax

Yeah, well the archery seaon has come and gone here so, I don't think I'd get that lucky with some yahoo shooting a 7mm magnum or a 30.-06 or 30-30 or .303. I kind of like my blood and organs to stay on the inside where they belong, lol.

I'm hoping to go way up country a ways this weekend as a matter of fact, away from humanity when I'm deer hunting.

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## explodingearth

i hate being human. i thought i was free?

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## trax

If you really hate being human dude, you're stopping yourself from being free.

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## Nativedude

Living completely off the grid is possible, but it does take time, consideration, and preparation to do it properly and to be able to sustain comfortably.

When I first decided to go completely O.T.G. (off the grid,) I researched the area I wanted to live, bought topo maps, and set up a schedule of time to travel to each of the areas I designated as "livable," and mapped out a time line for physically going into these areas and researching, first hand, for everything I would need to live there year round.

Second, I made a list of the things I would need to set up a homestead. The list included these topics:
Tools (for building my cabin, beds, & furniture)
Bedding
Cooking
Clothing
Toiletries/Hygiene
Medical/First Aid
Food
Extras to finish cabin (i.e; nails, glass for windows, etc.)
Miscellaneous Items (i.e; rifle, ammo, etc.)

I then listed everything I would need in each of these topics and started collecting each of the items as money would allow. For a couple of years I worked 2-3 jobs at a time to have enough money to get what I needed.

This is an example of my list:
*Bedding:* 
6 - Wool Blankets
1 - Winter Sleeping Bag
1 - Summer sleeping bag

*Cooking:* 
1 - 10" Cast iron skillet
1 - 8qt. Dutch oven
1 - Cast iron tea pot

When I traveled to the areas I designated as "livable" I looked for:
1.) Enough water to sustain me (even in winter.) In some areas the ice gets to thick on the lakes and rivers to cut through to get water. But you could melt snow for water too.
2.) Enough timber to build a cabin (or sustainable shelter,) and for year round firewood.
3.) Was the ground right for growing crops. Rhubarb, spuds, carrots, green beans, etc.
4.) I was looking for an area with a waterfall (my own shower. . .a personal want.)
5.) Enough fish in the lake or stream to sustain me year round.
6.) Enough game to supply me with meat year round.

After I found the spot that had the things I needed and wanted (I did find a spot with a waterfall) I set out to live the summer there. I built a wiki-up. and packed in the supplies I would need (via my canoe) to set a summer home (Mid-June - Early-Sept.)

I then paddled out and re-stocked for a winter stay (Mid-Sept - Late- May.) In Early May I cut the timber for my cabin. Stacked it to dry and packed out my gear. I stored my gear in a storage unit in the nearest town (100 miles away.)

I came back to the lower 48 to visit my family. The following spring (Early-May) I bought a Yurt and went back to build my cabin. I finished the cabin by Sept. and came back to stay with family and helped them with things they needed done.

I have a friend that owns his own semi truck & trailer. The following May, we loaded all my gear into his trailer. He got a load going to Juneau. We took turns driving (I too, have a class A CDL.) Once we got to Juneau, I loaded all my belongings onto a ferry and took it across to Anchorage. From there I loaded it into a bush plane (it took 2 trips) and flew it to my buddies house (where my canoes were stored,) and loaded into the 2 canoes and paddled it to my homestead.

I now come out only twice a year. Once in the summer, to re-stock my supplies, attend the trade shows, where I sell my log furniture, antler jewelry, and leather & cloth goods, and once in the fall, to visit the family and stay for the holidays.

Planning is the key to doing it right!!

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## Beo

Ya must have packed in a lot of wire and generator to get the internet and recharge your computer and must be a big azz canoe to truck out all that heavy log furniture  :Big Grin:  Anyway your right, takes a lot of prep time and just doing it.

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## Nativedude

:Big Grin:   LMAO Beowulf!!!

Not my computer. . .don't own a computer. It belongs to my cousin. I use it when I'm back visiting family. I'm back for the holidays. Heading back in Jan.

I don't pack my stuff out anymore (since I have the cabin built.)

Canoes are 18' & 22'. The 22' is a cargo canoe. Traded some stationary power tools for them!




> Ya must have packed in a lot of wire and generator to get the internet and recharge your computer and must be a big azz canoe to truck out all that heavy log furniture  Anyway your right, takes a lot of prep time and just doing it.

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## trax

From the time you made the decision to when you finally got moved in, how long?  Double e, pay attention to the man's answer and remember this guy went in with a lot of experience, this isn't something you accomplish overnight.

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## Rick

Just curious Nativedude. Do you have some means of contact should something happen. Radio? Satellite phone? A broken leg or a severe illness would not be a good thing in that environment. How much snow, on average, in winter?

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## nell67

Another Hoosier Rick?? I am from southern Indiana myself,Washington County now.

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## trax

> Another Hoosier Rick?? I am from southern Indiana myself,Washington County now.


What exactly does "hoosier" mean?

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## nell67

> What exactly does "hoosier" mean?


I really have no idea,LOL its just what they call you if you are from Indiana,like if you are from Ohio,you are a buckeye.

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## Rick

Hoosier is a French term that means, "Loan wolf that steals women's hearts, conquers worlds and forces men to bow down to him," ... oh, no. Wait. that's from another post. Hoosier. Hmm. No one knows. 

Hoosier Rick

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## Rick

By the way, a buckeye is just a useless nut, which explains a lot of things about Ohio. (chuckle, chuckle, chuckle).

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## nell67

> Hoosier is a French term that means, "Loan wolf that steals women's hearts, conquers worlds and forces men to bow down to him," ... oh, no. Wait. that's from another post. Hoosier. Hmm. No one knows. 
> 
> Hoosier Rick


Hhmmm that seems to be a pretty popular definition!

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## nell67

Like barnacles, a thick crust of speculation has gathered over the word "Hoosier" to explain the origin of Indiana's nickname. Popular theories, diligently and often sincerely advanced, form a rich, often amusing body of folklore. Those theories include: "Who's here?" as a question to unknown visitors or to the inhabitants of a country cabin; Hussar, from the fiery European mounted troops; "Huzzah!" proclaimed after victory in a fight; Husher, a brawny man, capable of stilling opponents; Hoosa, an Indian word for corn; Hoose, an English term for a disease of cattle which gives the animals a wild sort of look; and the evergreen "Who's ear?" asked while toeing a torn-off ear lying on the bar room floor the morning after a brawl. 

      The best evidence, however, suggests that "Hoosier" was a term of contempt and opprobrium common in the upland South and used to denote a rustic, a bumpkin, a countryman, a roughneck, a hick or an awkward, uncouth or unskilled fellow. Although the word's derogatory meaning has faded, it can still be heard in its original sense, albeit less frequently than its cousins "Cracker" and "Redneck." 

      From the South "Hoosier" moved north and westward with the people into the Ohio Valley, where it was applied at first to the presumably unsophisticated inhabitants of Southern Indiana. Later it expanded to include all residents of the state and gradually lost its original, potent connotation of coarseness in manners, appearance and intellect. 
      As for the word itself, it probably derives from the Saxon word "hoo" meaning promontory or cliff or ridge or rise or hill. Jacob Dunn, a diligent scholar of the word, believes a Saxon beginning, and such a meaning survives in various place names in England. There is some sense in the notion, too, that those who applied the insult and those to whom it was applied (and who understood it) came primarily from British stock. 

      The unusual (ier or sier) ending has always been difficult to explain. Might it be from "scir" the old form of "shire?" The Hoo Shire would then be the Hill Country, the High Places or the Mountain Region. Would that meaning then extend to those who lived in the hills, making them the "hooscirs" and later the "Hoosiers," the mountain people, hillbillies by another name? 

Maybe we should change our name???LMAO

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## Nativedude

In all it took six years of planning, scouting for the right spot to settle, spending summer and winter in that spot (to make sure it was suitable for year round living,) and 1 1/2 years to complete my cabin

During the time I initially thought about moving into the bush (back country) I started collecting, dried, canned, and powdered foods, the tools (I didn't already have) to build my cabin, wool blankets, clothing (mostly wool,) cast iron cook ware, oil lamps (12 in all,) toilet paper, etc. Getting that stuff together and packed helps you in the process of knowing just how big you need your shelter to be.

I made all of my own storage crates from cedar and southern yellow pine. I also collected as many glass canning jars & lids and storage tins (from cookies and so forth) as I could. I use no plastic. There is no trash pick-up out in the bush. If plastic breaks it is useless and you can't burn it. Tin, glass, and wood can all be broken down through composting, melting, or burning.

I do have a shortwave radio that I can run off of my hand crank generator, for emergencies.




> From the time you made the decision to when you finally got moved in, how long?  Double e, pay attention to the man's answer and remember this guy went in with a lot of experience, this isn't something you accomplish overnight.

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## STB

Hey
Thats soo great to hear nativedude, its nice to see people actually going through with it, and still doing it. Keep us al posted we love to hear everything you did to get ready and what you do out there. I hate to ask this as i ahve a couple of other times on the fourm but how do you preserve your meat? I know you can smokie the meat cut it put in strips burn wood that will smoke alot and hang it over that. but is that what you have to do with all your meat? Could you possible dig a hole deap enough and maybe store it in something or no? Thats my only fear going out there getting a deer and not being able to keep all the meat safe to eat and wasting that deers life for such little meat.
Thanks for your time and keep up the great work we love hearing the stories!

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## Nativedude

> "Hey, I hate to ask this. . .how do you preserve your meat? I know you can smoke the meat cut it put in strips burn wood that will smoke alot and hang it over that. but is that what you have to do with all your meat? Could you possible dig a hole deap enough and maybe store it in something or no? Thats my only fear going out there getting a deer and not being able to keep all the meat safe to eat and wasting that deers life for such little meat."


Yes STB, I smoke most of the meat. I took one of my crates (16"x36"), dug a hole and put the crate in it. I lined it with a piece of burlap (I get the burlap from my 50# sacks of flour, sugar, beans, etc.) That is my outdoor frig. I got the idea from Dick Proenneke when I visited him at his homestead in 1994. I also used 4 mil. polyethylene on my roof as he did. He never had a leak so I figure I won't either. So far so good! And I store some fresh meat (kept in a sealed tin) and other items, eggs, butter, etc., in there. I keep things in tins so that if an animal does get in there they cannot get to the food. If it was kept in plastic, they would be able to chew through the plastic and eat my food.

The temp. in my underground frig. stays around 40 degrees in the summer. Although it does get colder in the winter, which means that I must bring things to eat for the next day in the night before. But it works just fine!

I store the smoked meat and other food in my "food cache."

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## trax

If you've got an area with thick moss around your site, it'll make a better in ground fridge, you can cut the moss in an almost perfect square with just a shovel blade and it lifts up in one piece and the ground underneath it is cooler/damper. The burlap is a good idea.

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## Nativedude

> If you've got an area with thick moss around your site, it'll make a better in ground fridge, you can cut the moss in an almost perfect square with just a shovel blade and it lifts up in one piece and the ground underneath it is cooler/damper. The burlap is a good idea.


Yes Trax, I do have the lid of my "frig." covered with moss. It does keep the box much cooler in the summer and it keeps things from getting completely frozen in the winter.   :Wink:

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## STB

Hey
that fridge sounds pretty good. How deep do you dig the hole? and you put the crate over the hole so nothing alls in or what? I kind of got lost durring that part sorry. It sounded like you put in on the bottom as a floor, but then wouldnt larger animals possibly fall into the hole? When you say tin cans you mean like big coffe cans or what. if so i better start drinking coffee.
thanks for that, i better also start master smoking meat.

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## Rick

When I was a kid, the ice house used sawdust to insulate with. It kept the ice cold well through the summer. I guess if it works don't mess with it but just another idea.

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## trax

We used to dig a 3 or 4 foot hole or so, STB, about the same size across too. If you're in moss you can lay the top layer of moss right back over the hole, but it's good to make some kind of cover to go under the moss too, for exactly the reason you said. If you have kids running around camp, they could fall in, too.

Rick, too right about the sawdust in the ice houses. I'd forgotten about that.

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## Nativedude

> Hey
> that fridge sounds pretty good. How deep do you dig the hole? and you put the crate over the hole so nothing alls in or what? I kind of got lost during that part sorry. It sounded like you put in on the bottom as a floor, but then wouldn't larger animals possibly fall into the hole? When you say tin cans you mean like big coffe cans or what. if so i better start drinking coffee.
> thanks for that, i better also start master smoking meat.


I put the crate into the hole I dug. Then I lined the inside of the crate with the burlap (to keep bugs and so forth out.) On the top of the crate I put moss to keep it cooler (from the sun) and warmer (in the winter) so that my food does not spoil of get too frozen. As the burlap starts to deteriorate I will replace it with a new one.

Dig the hole a little bigger than the size of the crate you are going to use. The crate I used is 20" deep and made from cedar, so it is pretty impervious to rot and there for will last a good long time!

I use tins that have tin lids. You can find them at antique or second hand shops, and there are still somethings that come in tins today, i.e; cookies, popcorn, candy, etc. I have many of the popcorn tins that I use for sugar, flour, sea salt, beans, etc., as well as, storing meat, butter, eggs, etc. and I have glass storage jars with snap on lids to keep things sealed up tight and to keep the critters out!  :Wink: 

My sugar, flour, sea salt, baking powder, baking soda, beans, etc. all come in 25 & 50# canvas burlap bags and I transfer it to the tins for inside the cabin. The remainder I leave in the sacks and store in my food cache.

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## george hayduke

i've been thinking about building my own cabin but i can't afford to purchase a lot of land. i'm just wondering what kind of options i have. i guess many of you just build your cabin anyway and squat on the land. i'm fine with that but i'm afraid of being kicked out. i don't want to have to worry about that. right now i've been looking for some places up in maine. i guess i could watch someones land for them or is it possible to rent someones cabin way out in the woods for like 50 bucks a month or something. im really just looking for some ideas. i'm tired of this concrete jungle..... and need to get out.

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## klkak

> I have a friend that owns his own semi truck & trailer. The following May, we loaded all my gear into his trailer. He got a load going to Juneau. We took turns driving (I too, have a class A CDL.) Once we got to Juneau, I loaded all my belongings onto a ferry and took it across to Anchorage. From there I loaded it into a bush plane (it took 2 trips) and flew it to my buddies house (where my canoes were stored,) and loaded into the 2canoes and paddled it to my homestead.


Wow, you are the man!  You and a friend drove a Tractor-trailer rig all the way to Juneau?  That is one heck of a drive for just 2 men.

I am at a loss for words.....I just don't know what to say other then "I don't believe it"!

Your odyssey of moving into the wilderness is the stuff that "stories" are made of.  You are truly something else.

Like I said before "You are the man". :Smile:

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## Rick

Wait a minute. I didn't catch this before. There aren't any roads to Juneau. You can't drive anything there. What the......? There was a load going to Juneau alright.

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## Sourdough

> When I traveled to the areas I designated as "livable" I looked for:
> 1.) Enough water to sustain me (even in winter.) In some areas the ice gets to thick on the lakes and rivers to cut through to get water. But you could melt snow for water too.
> 2.) Enough timber to build a cabin (or sustainable shelter,) and for year round firewood.
> 3.) Was the ground right for growing crops. Rhubarb, spuds, carrots, green beans, etc.
> 4.) I was looking for an area with a waterfall (my own shower. . .a personal want.)
> 5.) Enough fish in the lake or stream to sustain me year round.
> 6.) Enough game to supply me with meat year round.
> 
> After I found the spot that had the things I needed and wanted (I did find a spot with a waterfall) I set out to live the summer there. I built a wiki-up. and packed in the supplies I would need (via my canoe) to set a summer home (Mid-June - Early-Sept.)
> ...



Reading carefully, It sounds like you are "squatting" on Government land, owned by the National Park Service. You say that you can't use a chainsaw, which means you are in the "Hard Park". In-Holdings of private property with-in the National Parks located in Alaska, start at $1,000,000.00 for five acres. That is One Million Dollars, and you "Infer" that you had or have three properties with-in the National Parks. Your photos of your "Homestead" appear to have come from the "Lake Clark National Park", and show zero human impact. You say you are on a River, but the photo shows a lake, and looks strangely like the view to the North-East on Twin Lakes.

I am just curious as to "Roughly" not exactly, but roughly where your homestead is located.........?

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## Winnie

Seems to have gone awfully quiet.

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## DOGMAN

Barefoot in Alaska winters, driving to Juneau, 240 miles from a town, the list goes on and on....

Come on Native Dude, come clean- tell us your real story- seperate your dreams from your reality and combine your internet identity with your real-self.  You have made a lot of good posts in the past, your a valued member of the community. We just need to know if we're reading fact or fiction when we read your stuff. You obviously have a passion for primitive living and are knowledgeable on alot of things- you don't have to live it full-time to be a contributor

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## klkak

Maybe we don't hear from ND for long periods of time is because he is recharging his batteries.




> 4.)I do have a satellite cell phone w/3 long life batteries (to keep in touch with family, emergencies, etc.) I have connection to internet through satellite link up.
> 
> 5.) I use 3 Brunton portable solar chargers to keep my phone and laptop batts. charged, and I have 2 Optima deep cycle batteries for extra pwr. (if need be.)

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## klkak

> I have a friend that owns his own semi truck & trailer. The following May, we loaded all my gear into his trailer. He got a load going to Juneau. We took turns driving (I too, have a class A CDL.) Once we got to Juneau, I loaded all my belongings onto a ferry and took it across to Anchorage. *From there I loaded it into a bush plane (it took 2 trips) and flew it to my buddies house (where my canoes were stored,) and loaded into the 2 canoes and paddled it to my homestead*.


Ok canoe paddlers.  How does one man paddle two canoes up a river by himself?

Nativedude how did you accomplish this task?

One other thing.  What type of bush plane carried you to your buddies house. ie: Cub, Super Cub, Maul M-4 / M-5 / M-7, Cessna 170, 185, 206 or maybe it was a Beaver.

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## huntermj

How the heck did this thread come back up?

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## klkak

I'm just trying to understand.

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## crashdive123

Inquiring minds want to know.

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## BENESSE

I'm loving this.
Sounds like a bunch of women trying to figure out a soap opera plot. :Smile:

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## klkak

> I'm loving this.
> Sounds like a bunch of women trying to figure out a soap opera plot.


Benesse, I'm just trying to understand what he is all about.  Every time he opens his mouth his story get grander and grander.  If he'd have kept his story simple and straight every time he told it there would be no question about its validity.

You can ask any of my good friends and they will tell you that I can really embellish a story.  The difference is I tell the story the same way every time and my stories are based in truth.

For instance, the first bear I ever hunted in Alaska.  I only tell the embellished story when my best friend and trapping partner Richard is present as he was the night I shot the bear.  I tell the story of this 400 pound wounded black bear charging me and I having to shoot the bear at a mere 10 feet.  Then Richard elaborates by including the fact that the bear was the skinniest bear he'd ever seen and at the time it charged me it was a paraplegic because the first time I shot it I clipped its spine.

When I broke my leg in Sept of 2006 I let people know that I yelled a manly yell with a touch of wounded beast in my tone.  AKS who was with me says it was more like a little girl or something like that.

Maybe ND should write down his story and leave it next to his computer so that any time someone asks him a question or he decides to make a comment with a reference to his Alaska wilderness home, he can refer to his notes.

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## BENESSE

> Benesse,* I'm just trying to understand what he is all about.  Every time he opens his mouth his story get grander and grander.  If he'd have kept his story simple and straight every time he told it there would be no question about its validity.*
> 
> You can ask any of my good friends and they will tell you that I can really embellish a story.  The difference is I tell the story the same way every time and my stories are based in truth.
> 
> For instance, the first bear I ever hunted in Alaska.  I only tell the embellished story when my best friend and trapping partner Richard is present as he was the night I shot the bear.  I tell the story of this 400 pound wounded black bear charging me and I having to shoot the bear at a mere 10 feet.  Then Richard elaborates by including the fact that the bear was the skinniest bear he'd ever seen and at the time it charged me it was a paraplegic because the first time I shot it I clipped its spine.
> 
> When I broke my leg in Sept of 2006 I let people know that I yelled a manly yell with a touch of wounded beast in my tone.  AKS who was with me says it was more like a little girl or something like that.
> 
> Maybe ND should write down his story and leave it next to his computer so that any time someone asks him a question or he decides to make a comment with a reference to Alaska wilderness home he can refer to his notes.


This is my first and only forum participation so I concede that I might be a bit naive.
What they tell kids about the internet is _you can't believe everything you read, and people aren't what they portray themselves to be._
If one accepts that, then there's nothing to get aflutter about.

As long as ND doesn't talk about something that could be potentially dangerous, cause harm or cause people to do the wrong thing (don't believe he has) 
what diff. does it make where he lives or what kind of box he's got burred in his yard? 
His inconsistencies aren't really about anything vital and although they may be disappointing to a few people, they don't take away from a lot of useful info he shared with us.

Maybe he is trying to protect the place where he lives and is purposely giving conflicting info.
Maybe he is trying to impress all of you knuckleheads and BMOC. :Smile: 
Maybe he's just having fun. Look how much commotion all this caused?
Who knows?

It just seems funny to me that y'all should care so much.

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## Sourdough

People are going to be really miffed, when thay get to Hope, Alaska for the Jamboree, and discover that "Sourdough" is really a well read, little girl in NYC...... :Innocent:

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## crashdive123

> This is my first and only forum participation so I concede that I might be a bit naive.
> What they tell kids about the internet is _you can't believe everything you read, and people aren't what they portray themselves to be._
> If one accepts that, then there's nothing to get aflutter about.
> 
> As long as ND doesn't talk about something that could be potentially dangerous, cause harm or cause people to do the wrong thing (don't believe he has) 
> what diff. does it make where he lives or what kind of box he's got burred in his yard? 
> His inconsistencies aren't really about anything vital and although they may be disappointing to a few people, they don't take away from a lot of useful info he shared with us.
> 
> Maybe he is trying to protect the place where he lives and is purposely giving conflicting info.
> ...


Here's why I believe that it matters.  In addition to the fun that we have, we do exchange a lot of information.  If somebody is getting their information from books, movies, and other sources - does that make it any less valid?  Of course not.  However, a lot of weight is given to experience.  When somebody with "boots in the field" experience contradicts what somebody posts (that they read about), most will weigh the experience much more heavily.  If somebody that by most accounts is the living embodiment of wilderness experience and 1) offers advice or 2) discredits the advice of others - that will most often carry a lot of weight.  If it is discovered that the life experiences were all BS in an effort to (pick what ever fits):
Stroke his ego
Replace some boredom
Drum up business for his school
Drive people to his forum that has 8 members
or some other intent
Then people should know.  Here's another example.  Wild edibles.  I think that everybody is in agreement that for the inexperienced (like me) they could present a danger.  Wareagle has devoted a lot of time to studying them.  He has often offered some great advice about them, some of which may contradict some published reports.  If it is revealed that his experience was all in his mind - then what?  It would be no different than somebody on the forum posing as a medical professional and offering advice - only to find out later that he/she just purchased their a first aid book for the first time.  As you say - if the information won't cause harm, it may not matter - but for many - credibility and integrity mean a lot - at least they do to me.

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## Winnie

What Crash said. In a strictly social forum I doubt it would matter if the stories were embellished or advice offered were wrong. However this forum as well as being a friends/social forum also offers advice and experience in what could possibly be a dangerous situation. We get a lot of youngters who have little life skills and may take these little nuggets literally and get themselves into trouble. Just my two pennies worth.

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## BENESSE

All good points crash, don't disagree with anything you said.

Thank god for you guys (boots in the field) or else I wouldn't know if, or to what extent ND was bs-ing. 
My antennae didn't pick up anything problematic on matters I was particularly interested in 
which was only a portion of what he was talking about.
I tend to triple check everything that is of vital interest to me no matter where it comes from (professional force of habit), 
but younger members/kids are more impressionable so I understand the concern.

Hopefully ND will come back and explain himself.

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## Winnie

> All good points crash, don't disagree with anything you said.
> 
> Thank god for you guys (boots in the field) or else I wouldn't know if, or to what extent ND was bs-ing. 
> My antennae didn't pick up anything problematic on matters I was particularly interested in


Me either Bee. I've learned a valuable lesson though. :Smile:

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## Rick

Stay with me on this one, Klkak.

First, you hook your tow rope from the canoe to the plane. 

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Then make very certain you don't paddle too fast. 

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or get a plane that's too bloody big.

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And don't leave too early.

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And if you hear the engine fire up while you're pulling it....paddle brother, paddle. 

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## klkak

So thats how he did it.......he had the plane pull him up the river.  Who would have thunk it.........except "Rick" who is one sick thong wearing, Twinkie eating individual.

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## Rick

Well I never! I'm the Minister of Science. I'm supposed to know how this stuff works.

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## hunter63

Trying to tow a canoe is like pushing a peanut, especially a high ended one.

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## welderguy

> Trying to tow a canoe is like pushing a peanut, especially a high ended one.


High end peanut or high end canoe?

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## Rick

High end = Tall or High end = Expensive. Details, man, details.

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## crashdive123

High end as in he smoked too much, or high end as in.............

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## welderguy

> High end as in he smoked too much, or high end as in.............


Thats funny

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## hunter63

I guess I should have said swept up ends, rather then the square backed or low end-ed style.
The "cool" looking canoes have the ends swept up to look like Birch bark canoes portrayed, in movies, pictures of Native American designed canoes.

Price doesn't have much to do with it, but then again most "High-ended" (high priced canoes, don't have a keel, and if you know what your doing you can control it just paddling. Kinda a snob factor.

The wind really blows them around if you're not balanced, or by your self.

As I thought that's what everyone was talking about, ND paddling two canoes by himself?, or paddling one towing another..... they don't tow well when tow rope is tied to the top of the front. Boots in the field(or water) observation.
As far as towing a canoe, high, y'all are on your own, LOL.

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## rwc1969

I'm not really sure what initially inspired the attack against ND, 240 miles?, but I don't like it.

But, I can see how making up a story like that or any other could have negative effects. Say for instance you are searching out a way of life that you thought wasn't possible. you find a person who tells you, and shows you it is, and get your hopes up only to find out that person is a liar. That could be very depressing to some.

I'm not saying ND was lying, but if it were true it could have long lasting and unknown effects on people, just as all lies do.

Myself, it doesn't matter because once the kids in school told me Santa didn't really exist it was all over. trust no one, and figure everything out for yourself. You can take what they say and verify it, but other than that forget about it.

If I'da believed all the stories I heard when learning to hunt and fish, or searching out mushrooms and other wild edibles I'd be dead by now or I'd at least still be bent over on some hill in KY holding a bag waiting for a snipe to run in it.

my back is sore, it's dark, are you guys sure this'll work? Guys? Guys?

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## klkak

> I'm not really sure what initially inspired the attack against ND, 240 miles?, but I don't like it.


What inspired the questioning of ND's integrity is his lack of consistency when telling his story of "In to the Wild" or becoming "Grizzly Adams" or whatever.

He can't decide whether he lives 80, 100, 110, 160 or 240 miles from the nearest road or town in Alaska.

He can't decide whether his fridge is lined with "copper", "tin" or "burlap"

He claims he and a friend drove a tractor-trailer to a town in Alaska that has no roads leading to it.

He can't decide whether he met Dick Proenneke in 1994 or 1995.

Now rwc1969 whether you like it or not the man has no integrety.....None!   In a community like ours here on this forum, every one of us should be held accountable by the others.

Until shown otherwise in my eyes he is nothing more then a well read "Numpty"!

I will speak no more on this subject unless ND's shows up and wishes to explain himself.

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## klkak

Bumping this up so's it's readily available if ND decides to come back!

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