# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Making Stuff >  Otzi

## Rick

I don't know how many of you follow the story of Otzi, the Ice Man but it's turning into an intriguing investigation of his life. They now know where he was born and lived and that he was engaged in a battle at the time of his death. What fascinates me is the advanced survival equipment he carried. Much of what we have today serves exactly the same use as 5600 years ago. 

http://www.angelfire.com/me/ij/oetzie.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/oetzi.html   This one is about his shoes.

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## Beo

How the hell do they know where he was born, you telling me they can find that out but can't Osama running around the frigg'n dust bowl in the middle east. I don't believe half of what Scientist say and the other half is guess work and speculation.

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## trax

Otzi trax' gramppa, trax still dress like otzi...same beard...Hey did they find a stash of really old tin cans with that guy? never mind, just a theory I'm working on

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## Beo

And from the pictures they say he wore a loincloth and leggings, he tanned the hides and sewed the together, his shoes were waterproof (no such thing only water resistant) but from what my history tells me people did not tan hides back then, the raked out the inside of the hide and cut a hole for the head and tied the fur closed. His shoes were basically moc's but the moc's in the picture are a modern reproduction due to the stitching in them one can tell this as does the over flap and this a type sold by Arrow Moccasin's. His quiver was located above him and a professor said "he may have dsigned them in this way" meaning they don't know. Which means once again it is speculation as I believe most of what they're saying is speculation.

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## Rick

They know where he lived based on the food he consumed. Remnants of which were identifiable in his teeth and gut. They also know because of the pollen on his clothes and the fact that settlements are known to exist in that area. 

All of the artifacts on that page are recreations based on the originals he carried. He carried bronze tools also thought to have been created much later. So we are learning that early man was a bit smarter than we give him credit for. Be a bit open minded. I think man used his brain to design survival tools a lot earlier than we give him credit for. 

I watched a show last night about underwater cities dating back some 6000 years to the time of the last ice age melt off. These were very complex civilizations and their town became flooded from the melt water of the glaciers. One is near Tony on the Isle of Wight. Apparently the island was attached at one point and a village existed at the base of a valley now below some 40 feet of water.

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## trax

Yeah, what Rick said, stop being so damn nitpicky. Some digs up your remains in 6000 years they're gonna say "for some reason not apparent to these investigators this individual was about 150 years behind his peers...." :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

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## Beo

I'm always a skeptic, but I still say most is based off of guess work and speculation because there is no recorded facts only very very old finds, any one can put together what ever they want. If found in the northern reaches of Canada one could have said he was a primitive native indian from 3500 years ago by his dress and tools.

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## Beo

Open mindedness is nothing more than speculation :Big Grin:  NEVER ASSUME.

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## Rick

(Head slap) Doh!

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## Beo

Hey Homer Simpson... lol... can't help myself :Big Grin:

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## Assassin Pilot

Of course most of it is speculations, but they are generally pretty accurate. And all the images (besides those of Otzi) are models of what he had. The real thing would be broken and faded, not serving as a good way to illustrate what they looked like before.

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## Rick

Beo - In technical or scientific terms this would be called Nya nya nya nya nya. 

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Thanks AP. I need all the help I can get.

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## Beo

> Of course most of it is speculations, but they are generally pretty accurate. And all the images (besides those of Otzi) are models of what he had. The real thing would be broken and faded, not serving as a good way to illustrate what they looked like before.


Correct it is speculation, but that don't mean its accurate, and modeld of this sort are guess work because of missing pieces and as you said broken and faded, not serving as a good way to illustrate what they looked like before or as I add what they think they looked like. Just like the nutty professor who said "he may have made his arrow and arrowheads like this" well maybe he didn't, get your grant money somewhere else Johnny Butterbut :Big Grin:

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## Beo

I know let's speculate on how Christopher Cloumbus discovered America.... oh crap we did that and it was wrong, and he enslaved the peoples he came in contact with. Hmmm did they teach you that in skool? I think not, it was all speculation and they ended up being wrong didn't they. Just like the iceman coud be wrong too.  :Smile:

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## nell67

oh yea,just like Pluto is not a planet after all these years :EEK!: ,are they wrong now,or were they wrong when they first called it a planet?

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## Assassin Pilot

Back then people generally did things in certain ways because it was the quickest and easiest way to do it. Hence why most civilizations started around rivers, it was easiest to get water there. 

e.g. Chances are he made his arrowheads way X rather than way Y or Z if doing it way Y would take 5 hours per arrowhead, and it wouldn't be as strong as way X which took 10 minutes per arrowhead. However, way Z involved stainless-steel-diamond-encased-hedgeclippers, which were not discovered until much later  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Rick

I give. Uncle! It's all a sinister conspiracy linked to UFO's and the plot to kill Kenedy. 

Oh, hi, Nell. Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Assassin Pilot

btw Nell, Pluto is still a planet in my heart

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## nell67

Hi Rick! :Stick Out Tongue:

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## nell67

> btw Nell, Pluto is still a planet in my heart


Mine too hun,but I am stubborn that way,hard headed and all ya know? :Big Grin:

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## Rick

Here is another good article. 

http://discovermagazine.com/1997/jun/stoneagewood1159

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## Assassin Pilot

Wow, thats pretty damned old. I think that discredits the theory of the earth being formed 6,000 years ago (no offense to any people [including me] who believe in that).

EDIT: wouldn't the wood rot in some way / shape / form during that long time period?

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## trax

Um, Pluto isn't that important to deserve a place in my heart, Otzi's my gramppa as I stated earlier and that's just the way my family's always dressed (we get our arrowheads on-line now, though), Columbus...everyone always knew was an A-hole, they just didn't want to admit it and....OH MY GOD!!! someone's plotting to kill Kennedy???? I have to call Elvis, he'll know what to do.

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## canid

AP: in the vast majority of cases, wood, fabric, hide, etc. does rot away. that's exactly why a find such as this man's remains/posessions is considered to be so important.

this find for one thing places copper working several hundred years ahead of the level that was previously believed. 

i don't personally believe many of the conclusions that have been drawn by some researchers or the methods used, but some are fairly sound. enough to satisfy my reasoning at any rate.

what interests me far more is the detail preserved in the material finds and how i can try to relate to the practicality of the tools, clothing, etc. how a person lived almost hand to mouth and had the knowledge to make all or most of the things he needed. how he knew his environment and maybe felt a secure place in it, comfortable at least enough to live content most of the time. i am a bit romantic about primitive or aboriginal cultures, though i respect the difficulties and dangers aswell.

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## Beo

Pluto's too far away who cares its just another cold azz rock.
Otzi is nothing but speculation and guess work from scientist who really don't know, he was probably a caveman refugee.
Trax is right Columbus was a phony and an A-hole.
Johnson had Kennedy killed.
Elvis is living on the Russian Space Station.
Remy is Sigmon Freud reincarnated.
Trax is the leader of Free Trxistan.
Nell is his Queen.
Rick is the Minister of Science in Traxistan.
Canid is Archimedes reincarnated.
WarEagle and Lady Trapper are the Traxistan Game Wardens.
Sarge is a Traxistan Rebel.
Chris is the Traxistan Presidents Consigliere.
NativeDude is a Traxistan Hermit.
Mitch is the little voice of reason in Trax's ear sayng don't do that do this hee hee hee.
Smok is just Smok fishing his way through Traxistan.
Robert Rogers and the others are in Traxistan Military Advisors and Leaders.
And I'm just a lowly exiled Dictator from Beowulfistan who is Owl Girls slave.

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## Rick

Basking in my Minister of Science glow......with a twinkie. :Wink:

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## Beo

Oh yeah and the Pygmies do all the work :Big Grin:

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## nell67

> Pluto's too far away who cares its just another cold azz rock.
> Otzi is nothing but speculation and guess work from scientist who really don't know, he was probably a caveman refugee.
> Trax is right Columbus was a phony and an A-hole.
> Johnson had Kennedy killed.
> Elvis is living on the Russian Space Station.
> Remy is Sigmon Freud reincarnated.
> Trax is the leader of Free Trxistan.
> Nell is his Queen.
> Rick is the Minister of Science in Traxistan.
> ...


Nay Beo,you are not just a lowly exiled dictator in Free Traxistan,you are head of the Queens personal security....and Owl-Girls personal slave :Big Grin:

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## Beo

Right on, now that I can handle, especially the slave to Owl Girl part. And any of you get too close to the Queen or spread propaganda and discontint and my spies will let me know. After a rough interragation of eating Haggis and wearing a kilt you will be drawn and quartered :Big Grin:

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## Rick

Dang! There went my Minister of Science glow. Oooh. Oooh. I need a personal science assistant. Ladies? How does Assistant Minister of Science and FoolinAroundOlogy sound? Huh? Huh?

Can I just be drawn and quartered first?

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## nell67

ROTFLMAO!!! Rick,I dont know why ,but that had me in tears :EEK!:

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## Rick

Part of my science experiment. It's obviously starting to work.

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## Beo

Your getting too close Rick... back up.

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## nell67

> Right on, now that I can handle, especially the slave to Owl Girl part. And any of you get too close to the Queen or spread propaganda and discontint and my spies will let me know. After a rough interragation of eating Haggis and wearing a kilt you will be drawn and quartered


 
Best part is Beo,you only have guard duties when Trax is away,when he is around you are under strict orders to slave to every whim and wish of Owl-Girl,best part is you get paid,and you can lavish Owl-Girl with very nice gifts,whatever her heart desires!

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## nell67

Get him Beo,MAKE HIM EAT HAGGIS!!!!!

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## Beo

Oh great so now while I get paid I'm still broke.

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## Beo

Off to Tony's kitchen with you!!!!!! Guards clap him in irons!

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## nell67

LOL,I didnt say you had to spend all of it on her!!

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## Beo

Tied a big bow on myself, all the gift she needs  :Wink:  and it keeps on giving and giving too!

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## nell67

There ya go!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!

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## Rick

Braggart! Big bow, indeed.

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## nell67

Well,if the bow fits???

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## Beo

Rick, Sir that is sedition! Prepare to be drawn and quartered...

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## RBB

Bear skin soles on the footwear?  That's odd.  I've always found bear skin to be a particularly weak leather to work with - prone to letting your stitches tear through

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## trax

That's true, I see bears in getting their feet fixed for that all the time. Sorry RBB, couldn't resist, but actually I agree, they don't make good leather.

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## Beo

Elk makes the best moc leather IMHO

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## trax

> Elk makes the best moc leather IMHO


I have to disagree, moose hide, all the way.

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## Rick

I would guess you use what ever is available. In the case of Otzi, he might not have had a choice on what type of hides were available. The article also says the shoe functioned like a warm sock so maybe it was only worn in the upper elevations where it is cold. Maybe they did that barefoot hippy thing when it was warm or used something else entirely. Just a thought

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## Sam

> I know let's speculate on how Christopher Cloumbus discovered America.... oh crap we did that and it was wrong, and he enslaved the peoples he came in contact with. Hmmm did they teach you that in skool? I think not, it was all speculation and they ended up being wrong didn't they. Just like the iceman coud be wrong too.


 He** Christopher Columbus my have been drunk and made a wrong turn when he 'discovered' America. Shoot I come out of bars around the world and done the same thing. I mean where is MY holiday?  :Smile:

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## Stealth

amerigo vespucci discovered america, columbus just found the west indies. they both were a holes.  no one liked them at home so they were forced to leave europe to find a new place to live and they just happened to stumble upon new land... but thats just speculation.

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## Rick

Uh, hello? Indigenous people. 

Brave to Chief as white men arrive: "Pizza's here."

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## Stealth

right, right, but thats all relative because they arent my relatives

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## Rick

I like that. (writing it down...it's all realative......)

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## zaebra

i personally find oetzi fascinating.  his tools and gear are all very refined and practical, and their variety shows that peoples of his time were well-traveled and resourceful.  sure, we may never know if the tattoos being located on acupuncture points is accidental or not, but the snapshot of a hunter from 5,300 years ago as a whole is quite simply very impressive.

i think it would be extremely fascinating to see an account of someone attempt to use oetzi's gear for a time to live in the wilds of an area like his homeland.  maybe les stroud would be up to the challenge?

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## trax

> i personally find oetzi fascinating.  his tools and gear are all very refined and practical, and their variety shows that peoples of his time were well-traveled and resourceful.  sure, we may never know if the tattoos being located on acupuncture points is accidental or not, but the snapshot of a hunter from 5,300 years ago as a whole is quite simply very impressive.
> 
> i think it would be extremely fascinating to see an account of someone attempt to use oetzi's gear for a time to live in the wilds of an area like his homeland.  maybe les stroud would be up to the challenge?


Don't ya just hate it when you're busy goofing around and someone goes and posts something that's thoughtful, insightful and on topic?

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## zaebra

sorry about that.  i have max ranks in "quell levity".  it's a curse.

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## trax

Oh it's ok Goldrydd, sooner or later people are going to start talking about wilderness survival issues and then where will I be? (heavy sigh)

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## Rick

I'm rolling through the posts this afternoon and I came to this one. Whoa. On post? Intelligent post? Insightful, attentive. An opinion formulated based on the text of the articles? I slowly backed away.........It scared me.

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## zaebra

ok, ok, i get the point.  it won't happen again!

precocious pretty penguins pranced precariously proximate to perturbed polka-dancing persistently-perky polar bears.

there, was that off-topic enough?

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## Rick

I bow to the master.

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## archeonut

The birth and living place of a human being can be traced with a strontium isotope analysis. Different water sources have different strontium proportions and stable isotopes, and this accumulates on the bones very gradually during the life of the individual. It´s very wise to be skeptic with the information given, but in this case in particular the extent of the analysis done to Otzi is inmense, so as the group of archaeologist that worked with that evidence, so in my opinion the reality of the archaeological context is undeniable. Maybe the interpretation can be modified and cuestioned, just like with any other science. They know, for example, that the clothes and toolkit that otzi had where his because all the material was founded around him, in the middle of a alpine glacier, far away of any other site.   
It's a extraordinary find, a complete toolkit with it's owner intact, and is quite unique on archaeology. 

If you are interested on this kind of archaeology, i can look for more info and photos to share

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## Tokwan

I look at it this way..Given the lack of education he had (he did get an education from his elders), no internet, no you tube....no survival forums, no Hunter, no Rick, Kyrat or Sarge to teach him, I would say he is a genius and much much more smarter than any of us....and he didn't even gor for Jungle Forces, Navy Sea or Marine training........but he did attend survival classes all his life.

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## kyratshooter

> I look at it this way..Given the lack of education he had (he did get an education from his elders), no internet, no you tube....no survival forums, no Hunter, no Rick, Kyrat or Sarge to teach him, I would say he is a genius and much much more smarter than any of us....and he didn't even gor for Jungle Forces, Navy Sea or Marine training........but he did attend survival classes all his life.


No Rick, Krat or Sarge to teach them is probably why they only had a life expectancy of 35!

If we had been around they might have lasted longer, and Natertot would have had his back and he would have never been shot!

I was in grad school when Otzi was discovered and laid down a scenario for my archeology seminar over 20 years ago that I still stand by today. 

I say there was a woman involved.  

*Nine out of ten stupid things men do that get them killed involve either women or power tools, and Otzi had no power tools.*

Why else would anyone take out across country to avoid murderers with no finished arrows and a half finished bow unless he was on the run.

And why would the killers leave him dead in the snow and not take a very valuable axe as a trophy, unless they could not admit they had killed him.

His pursuer wanted Otzi dead but did not want anyone to know who had killed him.  That's a jealousy rage killing if I ever heard of one!

Someone eliminated the competition without the woman in question knowing it had been done.

Jealousy, money and revenge have always been up there in the top three best motives for murder.  They left his most valuable possession, so money is out. 

If revenge had been the motive they would have taken the axe back as a trophy/prize to prove their power, so revenge is out. 

That leaves jealousy.

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## Tokwan

Errrr..thought we are talking about his survival tools and speculating on his survival skills......???????

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## Rick

> I was in grad school when Otzi was discovered




Pffft. I was in camp when he left. All I know is the guys were gone and I was alone with all the women. They were all telling the truth. Not even if I was the last man.....sad.

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## Grizz123

> I was in grad school when Otzi was discovered and laid down a scenario for my archeology seminar over 20 years ago that I still stand by today. 
> 
> I say there was a woman involved.  
> 
> *Nine out of ten stupid things men do that get them killed involve either women or power tools, and Otzi had no power tools.*
> 
> Why else would anyone take out across country to avoid murderers with no finished arrows and a half finished bow unless he was on the run.
> 
> And why would the killers leave him dead in the snow and not take a very valuable axe as a trophy, unless they could not admit they had killed him.
> ...


The social behavior of people back then was far different than it is today, everyone had to work together for the survival of the tribe. Look at modern day natives living in Africa or south America, within a tribe things are pretty peaceful while between tribes relationships can be fragile sometimes. Within a tribe there was a higher respect for others and their property 

I always looked at Otzi as a thief who grabbed what he could carry and took off for the hills. The victims managed to get one arrow into him be he managed to get away and die in the mountains.

Another theory is Otzi was dieing and part of tribal rituals was to take what you needed in the afterlife and die in the mountains

After learning he had tattoos in locations related to acupuncture points on the body, I figured he was probably a regular guy that needed medical attention every so often. Which led me to believe maybe his village was attacked so he grabbed what he could carry (and needed to survive) and headed for the hills to escape the invaders. While running away he managed to catch an arrow in the shoulder which eventually led to his demise. Or he could have been the invader and got shot in the process.

We will never know for sure what happened and the theories are endless

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## archeonut

In an article by Ian Hodder, he summed the most recent hypothesis about Otzi and his life. Apparently, he was a specialist on gathering minerals and medicinal plants, given that he carried plenty of both materials. He also had some "expensive" tools like the copper axe and such. By the time of his life, there where small farming and herding communities that kept together by reasons of security and productivity. Between those villages, there where people like otzi, who lived from the field and gathered valuable resources which then was changed on the villages for farming and herding products, or elaborate foodstuff like bread (of which he has on the contents of his stomach) or wheat flour

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## Roel

I'm astonished... you people in the States do have strange thoughts about the glacier man... 
Do not look at the popular sites, seek for the scientific ones...

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## Grizz123

> I'm astonished... you people in the States do have strange thoughts about the glacier man... 
> Do not look at the popular sites, seek for the scientific ones...


Do you have links to scientific sites which show more than one scientist professing what he learned from reading a book or books about ancient man. My point is that very few if any scientist can start a fire without a lighter much less fully understand ancient man, they way they lived and why they lived that way.

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## hunter63

> I'm astonished... you people in the States do have strange thoughts about the glacier man... 
> Do not look at the popular sites, seek for the scientific ones...


Why would you say that?.....

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## crashdive123

What?  Were you and Otzi neighbors?

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## Roel

Almost, it is not that far from the Netherlands to the Alps...  :Laugh: 

@Grizz123, just typewrite the words "Ötzi pdf" and you will find lots of science about the Iceman.

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