# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  Internal or external frame pack?

## sgtdraino

A follow up to the backpack thread, I'm curious which type most of you guys prefer, and why.

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## Sourdough

I use internal frame packs to haul laundry to the laundry mat, internal frame packs are good for luggage when traveling by airline, bus, train, canoe.

On the the trail or bushwhacking I only use external frame packs.

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## crashdive123

I voted for internal because that's what I use now.  In the past, all of my packs were external frame and I never had a problem with them.

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## huntermj

Internal, its all ive ever used. Finally found one that fits perfect.

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## klkak

I use both.  On a daily basis I use an internal frame Dakine Poacher.  When hunting or think I may need to carry heavy loads I use an external frame.

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## skunkkiller

I like the external pack . I can take the pack off and tie other things to it if need be like packing meat out of the woods or fire wood

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## ADEPT

external.  They feel like the distribute the weight better to me, but it's all just personal preference.

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## chiye tanka

I prefer internal, had an external and it didn't make it. Guess I was to hard on the dang thing.

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## HOP

I can't recall the source but an article on packs said that internal were better for of trail (little lower and closer to your back for better balance ) and external was good for heaver loads and established type trails.

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## Rick

I like external. You don't have to pack quite as precisely with an external frame and you have the added benefit of some air circulation between the pack and your back.

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## tsitenha

I like external, I modify the frame with extra lash points, and shelf position to suit the load that I carry specially when hunting or long canoe treks where hard edged items are carried.

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## fishpole

external's are great for packing in alot of gear i find, but when im doing a day hunt its always my internal cheapo from walmart that tags along. wich is going on season 3 and doing just fine actually.
-cory

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## Sarge47

> I can't recall the source but an article on packs said that internal were better for of trail (little lower and closer to your back for better balance ) and external was good for heaver loads and established type trails.


Both; The external frame is good for established trails while the internal frame is good for climbing.  However, when push comes to shove it' all boils down to what I can fit into my car :Big Grin:

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## rockymtnchief

I have both and love both. I had the external first and all my friends insisted I get an internal. Now I just grab whichever one has the most equipment already packed for whatever I'm doing.

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## RBB

No frame!

I was raised carrying Duluth packs with a tump, and still prefer them to anything else.

http://duluthpack.com/products.aspx?...=Canoe%20Packs

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## Runs With Beer

I use an Alice pack, I use it for short outings, But for the long haul I think the frame is the way to go.

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## sgtdraino

> I use an Alice pack, I use it for short outings, But for the long haul I think the frame is the way to go.


Doesn't an ALICE pack _have_ a frame?

I find myself revisiting this issue, as the other week I had the opportunity to do a lot of hiking. I took my internal frame pack, which had not really seen all that much action prior to then. It was NOT COMFORTABLE... but upon reflecting on the matter, I think I was wearing the waist belt too low. I had it closer to belt-level, when I think it probably should have gone higher up, sinched into the small of my back. With it low, the shoulder straps pulled down on my shoulders, and put a lot of pressure on my shoulders and neck. I am aware that, with both types of frame packs, the idea is that the shoulder straps simply keep the pack upright, the weight is supposed to rest on the waist strap.

On my next outing, I now plan to try an old external frame ALICE pack I got. We'll see which one works better for me. I think I've heard some folks complain that the ALICE is overly-heavy for an external frame pack, and doesn't carry as much as some other packs. Anyone have any thoughts or comments on that?

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## Rick

The medium pack may or may not. It's optional. The straps can be connected directly to the pack. On the large ALICE you have to use the frame. 

I've used the large ALICE with OEM straps and with upgraded straps and upgraded is the better way to go. I don't know about the pack being heavy. I do know it will carry a dang site more than I can. You can adjust the ALICE to ride on your hips. That will get you away from the shoulder pull problem. Ideally, the shoulder straps shouldn't have to carry that much weight. By adjusting down on your hips you place the weight across much larger muscles and lower the center of gravity nearly half.

As I said above, you'll like the frame because you get air circulation between your back and pack, which is really nice. The ALICE is a lot more forgiving, too, in how you pack it. Internal frames can be fussy about how you pack them.

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## Beo

I use a Large A.L.I.C.E. Pack or what we call a Ruck Sak Large, with a wet weather bag and a Maxpedition Jumbo Versi Pak (actually carry my Versipak everywhere, it has a concealed carry holster in it) and thats about it.

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## Sticky

I think my external, a medium ALICE, is more comfortable to carry and adjust while moving. Might just be due to preference based on long use; since about 1970.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Internal frame or pack board. External framed packs have the drawbacks of both.

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## grizz

I have both. They both have their time and place. External Frame: great for heavy loads, great for back packing if you stay on the trail. They don't give you the mobility if your going cross country. You don't have the balance. Your back doesn't sweat as much with the external. They typically weight more. you can't cram them to fit some places. The internal frame fit closer to your body giving you better mobility and center of gravity. Typically weigh less. If your an extreme light weight back packer these are the only pack to use. My extreme pack weighs in at 23 lbs minus food and water. Most of my gear will weigh more than the average persons as i'm 6'3" 325 lbs. But with a 35 LB pack i can go for a week in a area with water available. A friend of mine hase his pack minus food and water down to 17 lbs. thats pack, bag and tent and all the gear and clothes. The most important thing is figure how big a bag you need, load it with all the gear you will need and put it on and have a friend assist you in making sure it is sized properly to fit you. it can take a couple of hours to do this, because you need to hike around a little and make adjustments as you go. When we get a new scout they all claim their pack is just right, and never once was it sized properly. My 2 Cents

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## sgtdraino

I would like some tips on proper sizing. I know with some external frame packs, you can raise and lower the attachment point of the shoulder straps, and consequently raise and lower where the waist belt rests. I don't see that option on either my medium ALICE or my internal frame pack. Tips on getting a pack to fit properly?

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## Rick

There are a few adjustments on the Alice. You raise or lower the pack and/or frame with the shoulder straps. The lower belt or kidney pad has a turnbuckle in the back of it. Use it to move the frame into or away from your back. The tighter you adjust the turnbuckle the flatter the pad will be. Guys with small waist (of which I ain't) should loosen the buckle to allow the pad to curve around your back and fit against the small of your back. 

That's about it for the Alice.

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## justin_baker

The alice is horrible for some people because of its lack of a suspension system.

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## finallyME

I consider the old ALICE a combination of internal and external.  The frame is too small to be considered an external, and the frame is outside, so not internal.  It can carry a lot of weight off the shelf, and even more with a few mods.

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## sgtdraino

> The alice is horrible for some people because of its lack of a suspension system.


I recently read that ALICE is essentially designed for someone that is 5'10", and that if you're any taller than that, it sucks big time.

Fortunately, I am 5'10"  :Smile: 




> I consider the old ALICE a combination of internal and external.  The frame is too small to be considered an external, and the frame is outside, so not internal.  It can carry a lot of weight off the shelf, and even more with a few mods.


I've been reading an ALICE mod thread on another forum that is really starting to get me enthusiastic about this pack. We'll see!

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## Rick

This should answer some question on the Alice for you. 

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_a...licemanual.htm

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## sgtdraino

> This should answer some question on the Alice for you. 
> 
> http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_a...licemanual.htm


Thanks! Reading it now. I've decided to try Enforcer's "Hellcat" mod described here:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...t=47472&page=2

It's basically an ALICE pack and frame mated to a MOLLE suspension system and kidney belt, with a MOLLE Modular Sleep System carrier slung on the bottom. I've heard some pretty good feedback about it. All the components I don't yet have are on their way to me now. Looking forward to trying it out!

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## Rick

That's pretty close to the mod I made on mine. I changed out the shoulder straps and waist pad to the new Molle. Made a huge difference in comfort. I removed the vertical center bar (strap metal) on the Alice frame in order to attach the shoulder straps. I like the way he used the horizontal bar but I think I'd put in some type of padding to keep the Molle strap from being worn (cut) from use. Tape the metal or something to try and soften it. I went straight to the bottom bar to attach mine. Frankly, I haven't noticed any difference in frame stability other than I dropped a few ounces. I thought I might lose some rigidity but that hasn't been the case. I held on to the vertical bar just in case.  :Smile:

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## klickitat

I use all three; external, internal and frame-less. It really depends on what I am carrying and for how long.

If I am packing in for extended trips, I like a external. I like to be able to drop the pack and use the frame as a pack board in some situations, like when hunting big game.

I like an internal frame if I am just camping for a couple days or on a fishing trip.

I mostly use frame-less packs for the occasional day trip and for my emergency bag in the blazer.

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## sgtdraino

> That's pretty close to the mod I made on mine. I changed out the shoulder straps and waist pad to the new Molle. Made a huge difference in comfort.


I feel like the biggest problem I have with the ALICE, is that on me, the frame only barely rises to the height of my shoulders, when the kidney belt is secured where it is supposed to be. I feel like this is not properly keeping weight off my shoulders and distributing it down to the waist like it is supposed to.

When I secured the MOLLE kidney belt, I had hoped that it would cause the frame to ride a bit higher. Instead, I feel like the frame rides even lower than before! I ended up doing a quick-and-dirty mod with my Dremel, and now instead of the pack resting directly on the kidney belt attachment straps, it instead rests on the plastic panel that the belt straps are attached to. This makes it ride a bit higher, and I THINK it helps. But I won't know for sure until I really take it out and test it for a long period of time.

Enforcer insists that the MOLLE shoulder straps offer "suspension" that distributes weight off the shoulders, but for the life of me I am not seeing or feeling how this works, if the top of the frame where the straps are attached does not rise over the top of your shoulders. It seems to me that, if the top of the frame is at or below shoulder level, there is no solution that is going to keep the weight of the pack from pressing the shoulder straps down on the top of your shoulders, which is not what is supposed to happen with an external frame pack.

Am I missing something?

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## finallyME

> Am I missing something?


No.  But, have you loaded it up yet with weight?  That might confirm your suspicions.

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## sgtdraino

Oh yeah. With the latest mods it feels okay, but wearing it around the house for 10 minutes is not the same as hiking a couple of miles with it on. We'll see!

Rick, you've got the same MOLLE strap mod. How high does your frame rise to? Does it rise up higher than your shoulders? I still feel like I must be missing something, because I've heard from folks considerably taller than me, who insist that the MOLLE strap mod worked for them. I keep thinking that maybe I somehow don't have it adjusted right, or it works in some way that I'm just not understanding yet.

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## sgtdraino

BUMP 'cause I never heard back from Rick!

Also, I think I've decided that I still don't have sufficient suspension on the frame, because it doesn't go up high enough. My latest scheme is to do what the Airborne did, and replace the aluminum frame with a modified Enduroflex frame from Outdoor Products. Should be lighter, more comfortable, more durable, and give me sufficient suspension.

I hope!  :Smile:

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## finallyME

Keep us posted.  I just bought the MOLLE frame and suspension (no bag).  I plan to either use the MOLLE frame, or a commercial one I have had for years.

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## sgtdraino

> Keep us posted.  I just bought the MOLLE frame and suspension (no bag).  I plan to either use the MOLLE frame, or a commercial one I have had for years.


I'm interested to hear more about this: You think you can adapt your MOLLE frame to use with an ALICE bag?

What sort of commercial frame do you plan to use? Will you have to modify it much?

I hope to get the Enduroflex very soon. Maybe even today! Updates as they come.

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## finallyME

I don't plan to use an ALICE bag at all.  I am making a simple duffel bag type bag with a simple top opening, no zipper.  I will use straps and strap it to the frame.  As soon as I finish making the bag, I will post pictures.  The other frame I have is an old aluminum external frame I got for $5 at a garage sale when I was 11.  I used it all through scouts (the pack was complete then).  I took the bag off of it, along with any straps.  I have already tried putting the MOLLE suspension on it, and I think it will work.  The MOLLE suspension is very versatile.  In fact that is why I got it.  I was looking for suspension for this frame and thought the MOLLE might be a cheap option.

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## Winter

I adventured for years in a blue leather frameless pack. Suckage.

I did the alice pack for many yrs. I eventually got a frameless and very expensive tactical pack and uused it for maybe 7-8 yrs.

I now use a med alice. It is a very good pack and I'm used to it's shortcomings.

External for me.

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## sgtdraino

> My latest scheme is to do what the Airborne did, and replace the aluminum frame with a modified Enduroflex frame from Outdoor Products. Should be lighter, more comfortable, more durable, and give me sufficient suspension.





> Keep us posted.


I think it's just about *perfect*.  :Smile: 

I don't think the frames are available by themselves, I basically got the cheapest Outdoor Products frame pack I could find, that came with that Enduroflex frame. For me, that was the Dragonfly.

This thing is *ABSOLUTELY FRICKIN FANTASTIC*. Once I got it, I basically just took a dremel tool and cut down the top of the frame until it was narrow enough to fit into the frame pocket on the ALICE (this was the scariest part, as I knew there was no going back). Once that was done, I swear it's almost like the thing is *made* to work with an ALICE, as well as an MSS sleep system carrier bag for the bottom, and the MOLLE kidney belt. All the attachment points are very intuitive. "Oh! _That_ can go on _there_! Perfect!" I was even able to use my original ALICE straps, which I like better than the MOLLE straps (those pinch my neck a little) or the stock straps the Dragonfly came with. There are three different heights at which you can attach the kidney belt to the frame, and I had plenty of leeway. I ended up using the "middle" point. I swear, I think this thing is perfect. Of course a long hike is the real test, but wearing it around fully-loaded just feels "right," a lot more "right" than the original frame ever did.

I'll try to get some pics up soon.

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## lucznik

> I'll try to get some pics up soon.


Please do.  I have an extra Enduroflex frame lying around and would be very interested to see if there would be a way to put it back into service.

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## sgtdraino

> Please do.  I have an extra Enduroflex frame lying around and would be very interested to see if there would be a way to put it back into service.


Okay, here we go. Hopefully these pictures won't be too friggin huge:

This is the only picture I could find of the original unmodified Enduroflex frame:

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And here is how I shaped the top of it, to fit into the pocket of the ALICE. I know it looks thin on the edges from this angle, but it's really not as bad as it looks. from the side, that frame is pretty thick:

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Here's the pack up on the frame:

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And here's a close-up view of how I've attached my original ALICE straps to the frame:

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Here's a full view of the back of the pack:

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Here's a close-up view of the MOLLE Sleep System carrier bag, and how it's attached. Note that with this set-up, the MSS carrier is mounted with the BOTTOM against the frame. You'll see why in a sec.

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Here's a side-view showing how the MOLLE belt is attached, as well as how the bottom of the MSS carrier is attached. Note that there are three different heights at which you can attach the MOLLE belt, I chose to feed it through the "M" and "S" slots:

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Here's another side-view of how the MSS carrier is attached, from a slightly different angle:

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Note that the metal clips at each corner of the bottom of the MSS carrier go through those slots, and secure the bottom of the bag to the frame perfectly.

Here's how high up the pack comes, with the MOLLE belt attached where it's at. I could make it ride even higher, but I think this height is a good compromise:

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Here's a side-view showing how the suspension on the shoulder straps works:

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Lastly, here's an angled view, showing detail on the attachment points of the straps:

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Whaddaya think?

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## Sourdough

NOW, I understand, NOW I see what you guys call a hip belt and shoulder straps. What do I think? I think you did a nice job. However it still looks like what I call a large "Day" pack.

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## Rick

+1 on the tutorial and +1 on the modifications. A little rep your way. 

A couple of questions on the Alice. I see a couple of zippered pouches on each side. What are those? 

Did you modify the Alice to accept the Fastex buckles or did it come that way. 

Nice job!!

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## lucznik

> NOW I see what you guys call a hip belt and shoulder straps.


 So, what do you call a hip belt and shoulder straps?




> ...it still looks like what I call a large "Day" pack.


 It's hard to tell because the pics don't give a real good idea of how big the pack is but, I'm pretty sure that pack would carry all the food and gear I need, except for water, for a week or more. 

I like it.

My frame is not exactly the same as the one pictured, but I think it might still work.

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## sgtdraino

Since the "Internal or external frame pack" poll thread has become rather ALICE-intensive, and since we don't appear to have a thread just for ALICE-related stuff... I decided to make one! Shifting this excellent discussion over to there:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...d=1#post241803

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## Melissa Montana

I use external.Feels better to me plus i can clip other items to the frame if need be.

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## 1stimestar

I started out with an old external frame that I bought at a swap meet my first summer up here.  After a couple of summers of backpacking, I finally got a very nice internal frame, fancy, expensive.  I returned it after my first trip.  I went back to my old red external frame which I love.  There was not as much room in my internal frame.  The external frame is a lot more flexible in what one can do with it and yes, I like the breathing space I get with it as I tend to hike up mountains and get sweaty, then get cold as soon as I stop.  So not getting sweaty in the first place is a real boon. Funny this is the only picture I have of it.  I'll have more this summer though.

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Denali National Park

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I use a Nam era medium Alice with the frame and shelf. I rarely use a pack though, but when I do, I load them light. I need to get a new set of shoulder straps for it as the clasps for the webbing are slipping and wearing out, might go to Mollie style shoulder straps if I can find them. The kidney pad is still good, I only use it when I am hauling sleeping gear for someone else like my GF or son or an taking the tent and poles with us. 

Other wise I am just usually taking my BOB that is a total of 14 pounds and is a shoulder strap type with a velcro loop to hold to the belt. The son and GF use a med sized belt bag for their stuff.

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## Warheit

Internals definitely serve their purpose, but out in the High Rockies it is essential that I have an external so I can haul things with ease if need be.   I'm thinking about getting one of those High Sierra Foxhounds that are a few months old.  If anyone has any reviews or good links to quality external frame packs, send them my way.  Investing in a lot of gear for this Spring/Summer.   Prices couldn't be better.

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## sh4d0wm4573ri7

I prefer external but I to use both . I have about 5-6 different packs

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## Beo

After 8 years of humping a large ruck in the Army, I now have an internal frame, fits a lot of crap, I can strap extra crap to it, its got a padded back and hip/waist belts, and most important of all it's comfortable. Packs to me are a personal choice, there is no best pack just the one that fits your needs and is comfortable to you.

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## JahWarrior

For my purpose ,(day hunts), I go frameless with ALICE. haven't  had time yet but trying to attach molle II straps to her. Suggestions welcome.

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## Rick

I'm not certain how you would do that. The D rings should all match but there is also a center strap that attaches to the center of the frame. Since your medium does not have a frame there is nothing for that strap to attach to. I think your solution is to pick up a frame for your pack. Then you'll be able to convert it. I removed the vertical steel stay on my frame and attached the center strap to the horizontal stay. I didn't notice any difference in stability with the vertical stay removed. Of course I'm not humping 100 lbs of gear in combat either. There are plenty of YouTubes for the conversion with the frame.

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## Tristar777

Hi.
I used internal framed packs until I tried the ALICE from a surplus store. (We don't seem to be able to get any civvy selection of external frame packs now in the UK, not sure why?). Since then I have used medium and large ALICE with frame and love em!  I know some people find them un comfortable but I guess Im ALICE sized and I don't over pack then.

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## Winnie

I've never found an external pack frame over here either Tristar so like you use an ALICE pack (I won one in a raffle on here a couple of years ago)  
I'm not quite ALICE shaped, but then I haven't found a pack with an internal frame that's any more comfy so I stick with it. I would love to have a choice, though.

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## hunter63

Throw them in the truck....they both ride fine.......external or internal.

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## finallyME

> For my purpose ,(day hunts), I go frameless with ALICE. haven't  had time yet but trying to attach molle II straps to her. Suggestions welcome.


Like Rick said, you can't attach MOLLE stuff without a frame.  There is also no reason to.  You can upgrade your shoulder straps to LC2 straps, but other than that......

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## hayshaker

every pack has it,s use in hawaii i used a nam era med alice for camping and scrounging.
to day i have more packs than i know what to do with.        at least i have choice.
it all depends on how long a trip your taking and what you plan to do. then you can figure the size
pack youll need and what your loadout will be.   you dont want to use a 7,500ci pack when all your going to do 
is a 3day recon outting.although weather can also play a good part in how your loadout will be,

winter can cause your loadout to be conciderably heavyier than say a summer loadout. that said
you may wish to have a larger pack for the same ammount of time that you would spend in summer.

it,s not prefrense so much but more what type of trip you,ll be on that will dictate what kind of pack or bag you,ll use.

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## wilderness medic

> Throw them in the truck....they both ride fine.......external or internal.


LOL

Not too sure what classifies a pack as internal. Any sort of support not visible on the outside of the pack? I've been pleasantly surprised at my 5.11 RUSH 72s internal support backing to carry around 80 pounds tested so far. Hip belt doesn't do much to relieve the weight like an external, but it's not as bad as I thought. Good for UL fast packing or day-a couple day hikes. For extended trips the external packs ability to put some of the load on the waist is nice.

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## Rick

An internal frame pack has exactly that. An internal frame that is usually manufactured out of plastic, aluminum or titanium. Because the frame is manufactured inside the pack itself it allows the pack to fit closer to the body which helps with center of gravity. The downside is you loose ventilation between your back and the pack.

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## finallyME

Both an internal frame and an external frame should transfer all the weight to the hips.  If it doesn't, then it is poorly designed.

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## hayshaker

many MFG,S today seem to be catching on with how the padding is desinged
in order to allow the back to breathe especially in winter where sweating
can be dangerous. sometimes i think that aspect of a pack is a afterthought
when choosing a pack. 1,how much can it hold
2,sholder straps&waistbelt
3,how it rides
4,cost.
that is how many people purchess a pack.
also the (cool factor) come into play
is it tacticool enough?
will it match my bdu,s and so on.

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## Tokwan

I use an internal frame..Jack Wolfman.

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## finallyME

When I look at a pack, I look at:

1.  Will it hold everything I need it to?
2.  Is the suspension comfortable for the load it will hold?
3.  Is it rugged enough?
4.  Do I like the way it looks?
5. Price.

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## Tokwan

I look at a pack differently,...only one way...and that is...is it sub 9kg for my 35 litre pack and is it sub 12kg for my 60 lit back pack....simple as that! and to make things worst, I have these two bags readily packed...(as I have a few sets of camping equipment that I can make into at least 4 complete sets in 4 backpacks, enough for 4 people...it's past of my Bug Out startegy where each member (since there are 4 of us) to grab a bag each...

If its a 3 to 2 days of terkking..I would take my Karrimmor Trail 35 (with a water bladder), and it has no frames......but if its for a longer hike and gonna be about 4 days to 8 days, I would take my Jack Wolfskin Denali 55, since it can carry more food and my sleeping bag.

I have a few other back packs ..like the Low Alpine Military type...Aquavac 35L and a few other drybag backpacks...that should do though.

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## Adventure Wolf

I could go either way, but I mostly use internal packs for light duty so that's why I voted that way.

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