# General > General Guns & Ammo >  B.P. Hawken Kit Build

## madmax

So I got my modern gun building fix done (For now...) and caught the blackpowder bug.  Bought an Investarms .50 cal. Hawken kit.  Any tips, warnings, or sources of info will be much appreciated.  Thanks.  T

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

All I have to say about flinters is "Thank God for percussion caps".

I have a CSA 50 cal "Plainsman".  I have a devil of a time with ignition.  I finally got the frizzen roughed up enough to get a spark but I can't find any ffff down in this part of the world.  I've got a big brass meter box and a big brass rod that I use for a mortar and pestle to grind up Pyrodex.  It works Okay, but actual ffff would work a lot better in the pan and in the load.

I could order it but hazmat would take all the fun out of it.

Use only pure lead balls with a lubed patch.  

The procedure I use is as follows: Determine that the rifle is unloaded. You can do this by running the rod down the barrel, marking the rod at the muzzle then checking the rod against the outside of the barrel.  If the rod goes past the flash hole, you're unloaded.  Then I run a lubed rag down the barrel then a dry rag.  add powder charge (measured powder charge not like Danl Boone dumping straight from the powder horn).  Wet a patch with saliva place on the muzzle and start a ball with the starter.  Push the ball into the barrel with the ramrod until it stops.  Do not RAM with the ramrod.  Push the ball tight on top of the powder and check against the outside of the barrel again.  If it appears to be okay, put the ramrod back in the barrel and mark the rod to show the proper depth for that charge.  REMOVE the ramrod from the barrel and replace it in it's holder under the barrel.  If you do that every time, you will never shoot your ramrod.  Now, pour a bit of ffff in the pan, lower the frizzen and cock the hammer.  You are now ready to go.  

Aim at a target and pull the trigger, continue aiming at the target, it won't happen instantaneously.  There is a delay between trigger pull, a giant fire filled smoke bomb going off way too near your right eye (if you are left handed you really need to learn how to shoot the flinter right handed), and the actual boom.  

When the smoke clears, you'll say "Wow! I wanna do that again!"

Half cock, open the frizzen and blow down the barrel from the muzzle.  The moisture in your breath will soften the BP residue and ready the barrel for the next shot.  Repeat all of the above until your hands, face and mouth are black and dirty.  

Disassemble the rifle and scrub with hot soapy water and oil well.  If you don't do this last part, your next outing with the rifle will be disappointing.

Alan


Alan

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## randyt

I've been wanting to get a flintlock. Thinking about a fusil de chasse or a northwest trade gun. Only tips I can give is go slow, keep your chisels sharp. For a spotting compound I have used prussian blue, lip stick and a spotting compound specifically made for spotting in parts. I prefer that compound, probably got it from Brownells. 

In regards to priming powder, there are some guys that use whatever powder that is used for the charge. I have always thought 4f was for priming. There is a bit of a controversy in the community about priming horns. Some say they existed, some say they didn't. I've been told that the small horns that are typically seen as a priming horn are actually a small horn used for "day use".

I don't have a horse in that race either way but find it all interesting.

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## DogMan635

> All I have to say about flinters is "Thank God for percussion caps".
> 
> I have a CSA 50 cal "Plainsman".  I have a devil of a time with ignition.  I finally got the frizzen roughed up enough to get a spark but I can't find any ffff down in this part of the world.  I've got a big brass meter box and a big brass rod that I use for a mortar and pestle to grind up Pyrodex.  It works Okay, but actual ffff would work a lot better in the pan and in the load.
> 
> I could order it but hazmat would take all the fun out of it.
> 
> Use only pure lead balls with a lubed patch.  
> 
> The procedure I use is as follows: Determine that the rifle is unloaded. You can do this by running the rod down the barrel, marking the rod at the muzzle then checking the rod against the outside of the barrel.  If the rod goes past the flash hole, you're unloaded.  Then I run a lubed rag down the barrel then a dry rag.  add powder charge (measured powder charge not like Danl Boone dumping straight from the powder horn).  Wet a patch with saliva place on the muzzle and start a ball with the starter.  Push the ball into the barrel with the ramrod until it stops.  Do not RAM with the ramrod.  Push the ball tight on top of the powder and check against the outside of the barrel again.  If it appears to be okay, put the ramrod back in the barrel and mark the rod to show the proper depth for that charge.  REMOVE the ramrod from the barrel and replace it in it's holder under the barrel.  If you do that every time, you will never shoot your ramrod.  Now, pour a bit of ffff in the pan, lower the frizzen and cock the hammer.  You are now ready to go.  
> ...


Enjoyed your POST-Alan, having myself never fired a cap and ball rifle before. I did shoot a cap and ball pistol. After loading and placing wax over the front cylinders to keep a fire/spark from firing prematurely the other cylinder ball. It was fun and YES, I did shoot the other cylinders. I do not know anything really about the old cap and ball guns. Just and old read from I think was Chris Kiles, a book called America Guns. Where it may have said something about the old saying people used saying "DON'T RUN OFF HALF COCKT" As the old flintlocks were not constructed in one place. The horseshoe maker or stables would construct the still parts and the carpenters would construct the stocks and another place for the third part-oh yes clockmakers to construct the triggering mechanism. Truly enjoy his book but again not sure truly where I read this as it was so long ago. 

Wonderful read thanks for sharing. Something new to try just once.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Cap and ball (percussion rifle) is a lot easier to shoot than a flintlock.  Lots of things have to be working correctly in sequence to send a roundball downrange with a flintlock. 

and,

Keep your powder dry.

Alan

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## DogMan635

> Cap and ball (percussion rifle) is a lot easier to shoot than a flintlock.  Lots of things have to be working correctly in sequence to send a roundball downrange with a flintlock. 
> 
> and,
> 
> Keep your powder dry.
> 
> Alan


Alan, Black Powder weapons I'm unfamiliar as we did not bring any of the old stuff to the ranges in Fort Benning or any other firearms ranges where I instructed around the world. I shot on and instructed others in the use of firearms. But Not any cap and ball. It was just a long gun, handguns, and some larger, not for everyday usage. I'm thinking 5-shot. Had to load each cylinder through the barrel and put a kind of red wax-like grease over the cylinder once loaded. You had little caps the fit on the back of each cylinder. I say cap and ball as that was what the young man had stated it was. I know having read some of the History as a calvary captain wanted to be able to shot more than one round. The young man came to the range to show it off. But I asked him to wait until everyone had departed and he could shot first. His was a remake of the originals and after came the rechange able cylinders for even faster reloading of the weapon. I believe the first bullet came along in 1856, yes before the civil war. Truly you can see how the US GOVERNMENT overruled the seating President to keep the cheaper Black Powder or whatever they were called in 1863.  READ Chris Kyles Book American Gun. https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=american+g...ref=nb_sb_noss

TRULY NOT MY THING.

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## madmax

Thanks guys.  My inspiration for going with flintlock instead of caplock was a friend and Alafia Rendezvous.  While they allow different ignition systems,  the flintlocks seem to gain more respect at the range.  It also took me into a time period that interested me greatly.  The "lifestyle" of a pre-1840 'vous got me into the history.  I think the flintlock will keep me interested for a long time.  T

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Shooting a flintlock or percussion rifle or a cap and ball revolver will certainly give you a new perspective and appreciation for what our predecessors had to contend with in their day.  I read once (don't ask me to cite the source) that the Comanches, upon attaining the horse and the gun (flintlocks) opted to keep the horse and discard the gun as bows and arrows were more reliable and easier to shoot from horseback.  

The hardest thing for me to learn to do was hold my aim after pulling the trigger.  We are used to the near instantaneous response of modern centerfire ammunition.  Comparatively, there is a huge delay with a flintlock.  You get a "Click-foosh-boom", if you're lucky, in about the time it takes to say that.  The flash from the frizzen and flash pan is a little distracting too.  I can hit a paper plate about half the time at fifty yards.  Percussion rifles are a little easier to shoot, as ignition is quicker. 

Cap and ball revolvers (I normally call them pistols regardless of being scolded to do otherwise.  I've been married for 44 years so being scolded has little or no effect on me) are another "fun" activity. You certainly want to guard against chainfires, which DogMan mentioned.  There are little wax impregnated wads that can be loaded under the ball and on top of the powder to prevent that from happening.  Loading is slow and accuracy is pretty much a short range thing.  

As with any cast lead projectiles these types of firearms are picky about their bullets.  They will have different diameter bores and different types of rifling.  

Personally, I only shoot pure lead.  I want plenty of wiggle room when the BP explodes.

Alan

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## DogMan635

Alan, Just a suggestion here, and I'm sure a few members in this forum would be interested in knowing and learning more. I think madmax and others would join your group. A GROUP in this form for whatever you would want to call it, say something Pramative Shooting Skills.

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## kyratshooter

OK fellows I have to put in my two cents.

I was a reenactor for 40 years, and built most of my own gear, from clothes to shelters and guns.  I honestly have a for sure 'nuff Masters Degree in Cowboys and Indians hanging on the office wall.

I honestly can not tell you how many BP firearms I own.  I have not hunted them all down and counted them in years.

The era I reenacted was the colonial and settlement in Middle Tennessee, KY and NC, and all of that was in the days of the flintlock.  Anything else I own was just for fun shooting.  I think I have bout 8, maybe 10 flintlock rifles/smoothbores and several flintlock pistols, and there are calibers from .32 up to .75 and at least one cannon, we won't talk about that.  All of them I built by hand and historically accurate to their date of use.

The first one I built I used the instruction in the Foxfire 5 volume, where they followed Hershal House through the building of one of his rifles.  That was before You Tube was even a dream and you had to read and follow instructions.  I latter became a friend of Hershal and the other House folks.  they held a primer rifle shoot and Rhondy on their property for years. 

One of my proudest moments in life was the afternoon Frank House picked up the rifle I had built out of the rack at camp, thinking it was his.  Someone told him he had the wrong rifle.  I still remember his words, "Damn! Has Hershal seen this?"

Frank House built the rifle used by Mel Gibson in The Patriot.

The greatest problem most people have with flintlocks is that they are shooting modern made flintlocks from a factory in Spain or Italy and the guns are actually percussion guns converted to flintlock.  
Very badly converted!

The percussion guns they make are a half @$$ effort and the flintlocks are even worse!

There is no trick to a flintlock, no witchcraft or wizardry.  You are putting powder into  tube that is closed at one end. There is a hole in the side of the tube.  You apply a spark to the hole in the side and the thing goes boom!  Some Chinese fool figured that out back around 1000ad.  

The people that build them have been trying to figure out how to keep that from happening ever since.  Some do an amazing job and build things that simply will not work, giving joy to the antigun people world wide.  They do things like make the flash hole so tiny you have to have "priming powder", the ball/patch/bore combination so tight you have to hammer the charge down, and the muzzle so sharp you cut yourself trying to start a ball.

Just remember that the flintlock system was in use for 200 years before the complexity of percussion caps came along.  Percussion was only in vogue for about 30 years before cartridges made it completely obsolete.  They had the system pretty much figured out by the time they got to the American Colonial frontier and nothing was really an improvement until cartridges allowed you to shoot faster and not necessarily better.

Many used their flintlocks long after the caplock was standard due to its reliability and simplicity (three moving parts and three flat springs).  The Hudson Bay Company put in its last order to the Belgian factory for a batch of flintlock long guns, (That old NW trade gun Randy mentioned) in 1913.  They would have ordered more in 1914 but a war interfered with production.  In the Canadian wilderness the flintlock was preferred.  As long as you had powder and lead you could shoot.

If your parts are right, and you assemble them properly, and load them properly, they will work every time you pull the trigger, they will fire as fast as a caplock gun, and they will be as accurate as a modern rifle out to 100 meters, or a bit more sometimes.

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## kyratshooter

> So I got my modern gun building fix done (For now...) and caught the blackpowder bug.  Bought an Investarms .50 cal. Hawken kit.  Any tips, warnings, or sources of info will be much appreciated.  Thanks.  T


OK I had my rant in the last post so I will be a good guy and actually answer Max in this one.

First thing to do is check your parts inletting alignment.  Make sure the barrel breech block with its hook for the barrel is far enough back to allow the hammer to properly fall onto the nipple of the barrel.  You often have to move the barrel back in the stock as much as 1/8" before the hammer will fall onto the cap squarely.  You may also have to drill a new hole for the tang screw to go through and catch the trigger plate.  Everything on a muzzle loader is connected and dependent on the proper location of other parts.

That means that you will need to inlet the lock properly to get a fix on the proper barrel location.  Don't go too deep, the lock should just touch the barrel and be solid in the wood recess and not slop around.  You don't know exactly how deep until you seat the barrel.  (see the catch 22 there)

It easier when you build them from scratch, you get to decide all of this before the first cut.  With a kit you have to repair the factory's mistakes.

Everything else is now a case of making what the factory did wrong work in spite of itself.  Seat the barrel in its grove, inlet the trigger in its spot.  Hawkins usually have a double set trigger and that requires that you have a flat surface front and rear for the base plate and plenty of room for the parts to work inside the rifle.  Make sure the triggers, both front and rear, hit the sear lever and have clearance in their slots inside the rifle.  If you don't do that you will have a 500 pound trigger pull or the set trigger will not work at all.

Speaking of the set triggers, check them before you install them to insure they work.  that way you know that if they stop working it is swollen wet wood or some hindrance in the woodworking.  I have bought some good rifles cheap because some one messed with the set triggers and gave up on a rifle because the lost a tiny screw.

One of the things that I have seen over the years is that the kit guns were first designed with flaws in the pattern, and the flaws were never corrected,. they just kept making the same badly engineered product, changing names along the way.  The Traditions two piece KY rifle kit made today is the same kit with the same problems that it had as the Jager kit in the 1970s, as the CVA in the 1980s and 1990s and still has today.  Same thing with the Investarms of today.  It has the exact same flaws they had as the CVA or any of the dozens of brands it was sold as since  back when Jeremiah Johnson froze us all back in the the '70s.

When you get it working and inletted remember that if you are doing period correct work then a polyurethane finish is not appropriate.  Sand the wood down progressively to 800 grit and use a vinegar and rusty nails stain sanded between applications, followed by as many coats of boiled linseed oil as you can stand, then apply more linseed oil now and then over the years.

If you run into problems along the way give me a yell.  This would not be my first "kit gun".

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## madmax

Thanks kyratshooter.  From talking to to at that one camp I was hoping you'd chime in.  The "instructions" (har har) are very simplistic.  It also says to finish the stock with the brass parts mounted.  Seems bassackwards to me but I'll see when I get to that point.  I will try and stay period correct with your suggestion of finish.  What about the barrel?  I need to do something quick.  It's raining  lot here in the Smokies and we're under a thick canopy.  We're off grid here so no climate control until winter in FL.  Even my modern guns need a lot of care here.

l

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Max, I think you got more than two cents worth from the last two responses. We probably all did. 

Alan

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## kyratshooter

Max, the barrels on the originals were furnished in two ways, either charcoal fire blued (yep they heated them till they turned blue), or in the white.

The barrels left in the white are where everyone gets the idea that they were "browned".  The fresh bright barrel rusted a little today, and you rubbed it with bacon grease.  Then it rusted a little tomorrow and you rubbed it with more bacon grease.  Within 6 months, in most areas of the eastern U.S., the barrel would be a nice rust brown and well greased.  The builders hardly ever did the browning. That was considered a charge for something that was going to occur naturally anyway, why pay for it.

So you can chemically brown it, cold blue it, or just leave it alone and grease it down.  lets face it, where you live it is probably going to rust anyway and nothing you can do about it, especially after it has been fired a few times.  I have seen them rust on the way back to the tent from the shooting range!

Your brass is probably going to need a lot of filing and polishing off the rifle.  Usually there are lots of mold lines and casting slag intrusions.  You might want to install it for the last sanding with 800 grit if you want it stained a bit.  If you want it bright you need to finish the rifle and brass separate.

Keep in mind that the stock wood you have is some kind of European Beech and not really a pretty wood.  If you want it historically correct plan to stain it deep, deep dark, like near black.  That rusty nails boiled in vinegar stain will do that for you with several applications.  Many of the originals were stained with with the rusty nails stuff, and with soot mixed with linseed oil and rubbed in.

Common guns were left unfinished most of the time to save cost.  The shooter stained, painted or just let them collect dirt as they aged and the grease was rubbed in.  
\
 The PA Dutch settlers even painted some of their guns with milk paint.  I have a couple like that that I made with strong German influence.  The painted guns were sometimes done in bright colors too, like yellow, light blue, with the Dutch hex symbols painted on them.  

I have one Lehigh Valley rifle I did with a Dusseldorf carved on the butt stock rather than a patch box.  I did that one in better wood than they would have used on a common rifle. 

Only the really fancy display pieces were were done in select woods and pristine finishes.  The fancy guns you see are the prized possessions of rich farmers, preserved perfectly for 200 years, not frontier guns.

Frontier guns got worn out, torn up, and used up and then they were parted out and the pieces recycled.

I saw an origional in a museum down in Alabama once that had a Spanish Minquet lock, a marked British Brown Bess barrel, a bent horn trigger guard, a sheet metal butt-plate held on with square nails and the wood had been tested and found to be persimmon.

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## kyratshooter

You guys have flung a guilt trip on me.  I have a near finished rifle that has been sitting in the corner for two years that I need to get done.  This one is a .32 with a 42" long barrel, but it is only 3/4" across the flats.  The stock is walnut and it will have iron hardware, and of course it will have a flint lock.  

I probably should be working on it on these hot days when I am confined under the AC.

Here's a start off tip for you Max.  Go out in the shop and find a piece of flat stock.  Grind the end to the width of your barrel across the flats.  Grind and file flats on the end and relieve the edge to form a scraper. bend the end down to form the scraper and drag that down the barrel channel until you can drop the barrel in.

No real need to be fastidious either.  Hawkin, Leeman, Derringer and most of the makers of the plains rifles were making production guns, not hand made treasures. The rough work was done by 10 year old apprentices, the details were done by journeymen gunsmiths and the master smith collected the money and seldom touched a gun unless it was one of those fancy expensive pieces.

The outside of those original guns usually is passable but the insides often look like they were hacked out with a hatchet.  Perfect inletting is almost unknown. They also used hide glue just like we use epoxy filler today.  They even stained the glue to match the wood.

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## madmax

Now that's the stuff I was looking for.  Thank you.  A fellow on another forum is sending me an old copy of a bp book.  He says it's accurate and has a lot of history in it.

My persona is definitely poor frontiersman.  So rust and bacon grease on the barrel it shall be.  Rusty nails and vinegar I  have.  

Cut some nice maple, hickory, poplar, and elm clearing an old logging road on the land.  The black locust is going for bow staves.  I'm going to try and recreate a smoothbore that would fit in with the local diy guns period correct for here as best I can next. Stock mainly.  I'd love some suggestions for hardware for it to look for at Alafia next year.  I think Track of the Wolf had Green River barrels on sale too.

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## randyt

I have wanted a rifle by Hacker Martin. I have read that he wasn't a great craftsman. I think he built a rifle about as close as accurate as could be for the times. I loved reading his letters to Muzzleblasts during the 1950s, they are a hoot.

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## kyratshooter

Hacker Martin was a product of his time.  He was available and willing to work on guns when no one else would touch an old BP gun.  He was not a historian, scholar or craftsman, so he repaired and replaced parts created from his imagination and what he had seen around him as a kid.  Historic accuracy was not even a consideration.

He remembered the tail end of the ML period as a kid and carried that into the 20th Century.  The area he lived in was a haven for the last of the old "hog rifles and squirrel guns".  The ones he had seen in use were patched and repaired and the wood and parts replaced over and over.  He had patched and replaced a lot of them himself.

That was only possible during the 1920-1960 era when no one else knew how to repair any of these trinkets.  There are actually guns in the Smithsonian that Hacker built from scratch and are on display as original when all the museum sent him was a rusty old barrel and he built everything else.

There are also several fancy guns in the Smithsonian with ivory inlay he did using cow and hog bone to fill in 90% of the missing ivory!

Someone would send him a lock with a missing hammer or frizzen and he would make a replacement.  No one knew if it was right, no one cared because the gun now worked.  That gun was then set in a rack and studied as an original, sometimes copied and used as a reference to what was fact. 

And he was known as one of those people spoken of before, that butchered the inletting but made a "pretty" gun so they could get by.  They did not call him Hacker for no reason.  He was just all there was so he gained a reputation and people sent him work.

Hacker was also only a part time gunsmith.  His real vocation was the owner of a gristmill.  He only worked on guns when the creek dried up and there was no water to power the mill.

Now Max, if you want a working gun for a poor farmer, or the hardware for making such a gun, the look to the surplus gun market.  Surplus military and militia guns were cheap as chips on the frontier market and one of the most common types.

That is true to the point that most of our favored smoothbore types of today are decended directly from those forms, with the Brown Bess being 10 gauge, the Charliville/Springfield pattern being 12 gauge, The French Cavalry Carbine being 20 gauge,,,,do you see a pattern forming???  Those gauges were set during our Rev War and have stayed with us.

I read a census for 1790 in the Nashville,TN records that listed the family members in each household and how many firearms that family owned.  That was important to know in the middle of the second Cherokee War.  They listed two guns for each person in the settlement with about 2/3 of them being "muskets".  knowing the loose definitions of those times I take that to mean about any smoothbore, but speaks for the generic commonness of the military musket on the frontier.  

That also means that when the wood broke or rotted out from oil and grease or worms they replaced it with what they had and recycled the iron furniture.  They also used a lot of bone and horn where we would use plastic or metal.  Horn muzzle caps, butt plates and trigger guards were common.  I have also seen carved wood trigger guards.  Lots of the poor folks had no metal on the gun except the lock and barrel, and perhaps one thimble for the ramrod.  Metal was scarce on the frontier.  It was heavy to transport and difficult to make locally.  Unless you lived near a population center you had few extra bits of metal about for gun parts.  I have seen saws and knife blades made from military surplus trigger guards and butt plates, so someone valued the metal more for its use than its adornment value.

Down in your area there was Spanish influence, French influence and English trade, but when it comes to guns the English always won out.  The main reason was that in the extremely early years the English demanded that even the cheap trade guns be proofed when no one else did.  What you find at the archaeological sites is the remains of English guns holding French flints in their jaws and loaded with undersized French precast balls wrapped in buckskin patches or grass wadding.  

Yep, many of the Indians were buried with loaded guns as grave goods!  Usually lots more locks than complete guns, it is suspected the locks were used as their version of a Zippo.

The Indians would buy their powder and balls (Balls were shipped in huge barrels precast to fit the french trade guns.  Yes, the French had standard gauges and interchangeable parts.) from the local french trade post, but they would travel long distances into the English colonies to buy their guns at high price.

French guns were favored only deep in the French areas where there was no access to anything but French goods and the quality varied constantly due to lack of proofing.  That is why the Fussel de Chase became the standard reenactment French hardware.  They were better quality and a few of them managed to survive in the hands of French settlers and museums, so they are our French pattern.

The Spanish only allowed the trade of very small bore guns to the natives, and there were very few "Spanish" settlers to demand better quality or more power.  The Spanish were mostly soldiers armed with issue muskets, and clergy.  The Spanish guns in the Florida territories are often as small as .40 caliber, which is very small for a frontier gun.  They have found some of those up into the Cherokee regions all the way into Virginia.  The first traders going into the VA/TN/NC tribal areas reported that the Cherokee already had Spanish guns as early as the 1670s. 

What wood to use???  A poor man would use/have better wood than you might think.  They considered American walnut a trash wood, so any stock blank you buy in walnut would do.  They also  used a lot of fruit wood.  Cherry of course but also a lot of apple and persimmon and American Chessnut, but that has been extinct for 100 years so that is out unless you have an old bedstead or cabin rafter lying about.

Whatever you pick, if you are starting from a rough blank, pick a wood that carves easily and is not fibrous when cut across the grain.  Inletting the hardware is almost impossible in soft woods, they tear out badly, and a really hard wood is equally difficult to shape properly. I have one that is super hard maple that I started back in 1996 and I may get it finished one day. I keep wearing chisels out on it.

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## randyt

I've been looking at a brown bess "kit" from IMA. Just don't know what to think about shooting a 200 year old gun.

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## kyratshooter

I would only go that route if I wanted a wall hanger Randy.  No way to tell what shape the inside of that barrel or the screw threads on the breech plug are in.  Plus that would be the "India Pattern" that was only used in the U.S. in limited numbers during the War for Texas Independence by Santa Anna's army.

There was some outfit in Canada that was importing new manufacture with no touch hole drilled at one point so they could sell them across the border as decorative guns.

They even come with the touch hole center punched so you know where to drill.

Here I found them, it was Middlesex Village Traders.

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/

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## randyt

I've been thinking about those as well. I red that Manuel Lisa carried a cut down brown bess but can't find any real info on that. Bottom line is I want a flintlock LOL.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I have always read that the Brown Bess muskets were lacking in accuracy, which, I suppose, is to be expected in a smooth bore gun.  Then, I have also read that round ball fired from a 10 or 12 ga is fairly accurate over short distances. 

Either way, watching the effects of a 10 ga round ball on a human were, I'd imagine, ample incentive not to show yourself.

Alan

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## madmax

Oh man.  I thought bp was going to be easy compared to modern firearms.  So many choices.  This is going to end up just like the rest of my collecting...no one gun can satisfy.  I just blew my gun budget for the next year on, "I'm going to build that." plans.

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## kyratshooter

Things got sort of crazy for me when I moved 50 miles form Friendship, IN where twice a year they have the national BP championships and the trade fair that goes with it.  All the suppliers are there, Track of the Wolf, Dixie, Chambers with all those Siler locks, Davis, plus all the small vendors that "just do buttplates", or trigger guards, or just make locks, or just cast tomahawk heads, and the guys with every known factory knife blade in creation!

It either makes you feel like a kid in a candy store or that you are walking through Dante's inferno; so many parts, so little time!

Now for the Brown Bess lesson;

The British changed all of their military firearms to flintlock in about 1670.  Most were match locks converted to flint so they were a hodge podge of almost useless nonstandard sizes, shapes and bores.  That had to change and it did around 1715.  A new pattern was developed and all firearms had to meet that pattern.

The Brown Bess is not a single gun, it is a pattern.  It is just like the M16/M4 platform. Same caliber, some of the parts interchange, but they differ. The first ones are similar to the last but not the same when you hold them up next to each other.

The "pattern" was standardized when Queen Anne (they called her Queen Bess) was on the throne, around 1715.  The pattern stayed as the British Army standard until the mid 1830s.  

As could be expected the manufacturing methods changed during that time.  The first ones were hand made and hand fitted, all parts forged individually, all screw threads cut by hand.

By the end of their run they were made on production machinery with standardized parts, many of them stampings, and interchangeable components.

The British ordnance board considered the life of a Brown Bess as 7 years, so they were constantly being returned to arsenal and refitted with the latest developments, the barrels sold for scrap, the locks rebuilt, the brass actually melted down and recast to the latest pattern.  In the colonies they would simply go onto the surplus market and be replaced with new stock for the troops.  There was also a concept among the militia that you got to keep your issue gun when you went home.  That was not true but they took them home anyway, sometimes without the benefit of being mustered out officially.

They were inaccurate because they had to be, they were battle rifles.  You shoot a BP gun a half dozen times on the range and you are going to need to wipe out the bore.  Most people wipe it out between each shot or every other shot at the least.

The Bess was expected to shoot 10-25 rounds in battle.  That put a lot of crud in the bore and each reload was more difficult than the last.  

I know Sharps Rifles could load 4 round per minute, but that is a movie.  You could speed load like that for 1, maybe 2 shots, then it was over and you had to push the bullets down the bore with the ramrod.  It was difficult enough that they changed from wood ramrods to steel ramrods right about the time of our French and Indian War.

So the barrels had lots of windage built in, on purpose.  The barrels were forged and reamed to about .75 and the balls would be cast around .70.  The ball went in whatever direction it was headed on its last bounce down the bore.

Everything was "about" sized due to the tolerances allowed and expected.  If you got a Bess that had a barrel on the big side and a batch of rolled paper cartridges on the small side your enemy might be praising God for his fortune.

Look at it this way, would you rather have an M16 manufactured in 1965 shooting 1965 ammo or an AK made in 1965 shooting 1965 ammo?  Us old guys that carried those rifles will pick the AK every time!  Sure it shot into a foot at 100 meters, but it shot every time and you could not make it jam and the guy you were shooting at was bigger than a foot diameter.

The settlers, colonists or private citizens that bought the surplus Bess guns were not restricted to the issue paper cartridges, they cast or bought their shot and balls and loaded with patches that steadied the ball down the bore. they got much better results than the military.  

Military qualifications required hitting a 6 foot square at 50 yards, the settlers expected to hit a deer at 50 yards.

That and the settlers seldom loaded solid ball. They loaded shot of various sizes with no apology at all.  So you had a big 10 gauge smoothbore with a 70 grain powder charge loaded with about 2 oz of shot that you made by chopping it up with your hatchet coming out of a 48" barrel and everyone knew it was no good past 50 yards.  Inside that 50 yard limit you were going to hit something!

So the Bess became the standard "issue gun" all through the frontier era between 1715 and 1850.  It was also the "backup" gun for every settler that was going into hostile territory and needed cheap firepower. They might have a good rifle out and showing, but there was a Bess stuck in the wagon or standing in the cabin corner. 

The fur companies issued them to first year trappers, survey parties issued them to line cutters, the army issued them to scouts and they were probably among the first guns carried by the white folks into most of the U.S. territories up until 1850. 

I do know that Richard Hinderson issued Brown Bess muskets to the survey parties that plotted the Wilderness Road.  Daniel Boone preferred a smoothbore in the standard Bess caliber as a battle weapon.  There would always be ammo around if he ran out of his own powder and ball because a lot of the other settlers would be carrying Bess muskets.  He was carrying a 10 gauge smoothbore at the Battle of Blue licks in 1782. 

So they were among the first weapons carried through the Cumberland Gap and across the eastern mountains as well as some of the first into the Rocky mountains with the fur trappers.

When I was reenacting I always claimed that if I had to pick one gun it would be an English "dog lock" dated to 1650.  You could use it for everything up to WW1! 

There is a rule used by the button nazis that jury the events and that rule states that you can use an item from and older era than what you are set in but not a newer item.  You can use a 1715 Bess in a War of 1812 event, but not an 1820 era Hawkin rifle in a Rev War event.

If I had a gun dated to 1650 I would need only one for reenactment.

I never made that gun.

But I did make, as my first gun build, a smoothbore 16 gauge cut down generic musket type with a 20" barrel and I stripped the parts off a Siler lock and built a hand made lock plate similar to those used before 1700.  It is not a copy of anything and fits the part being the product of a time when folks were still deciding what a long gun should be.  That gun has reenacted everything from the voyage of Lasalle (1679) to the War of 1812 at Ft Taloouse, AL and fit in at any historic site I visited in the eastern U.S.

But reenactment is one thing and shooting is another.  If I could have only one gun it would be a Lancaster pattern fowler with an extra rifled barrel.  20 gauge smoothbore barrel and an identical rifled barrel in .50 or .54.  I passed up buying a half finished kit for $250 about 30 years ago and have been kicking myself over that bad decision ever since.  I have had to build about a dozen other guns to take up the slack that one kit would have filled.

https://www.flintlocks.com/rifles03.htm

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I have learned more in this one thread than I have anywhere else in a long time.

Alan

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## kyratshooter

just don't get me started on Colt caplock revolvers and bob'wire and we'll survive.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

It's "bob-war"...

Alan

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## randyt

I got close with a snider enfield, some 24 gauge all brass hull but then I found some headstamped 577 from track of the wolf. Not a rock lock and not a frontstuffer. But a blackpowder arm made by the British empire.

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## Rick

I have no idea what these guys are talkin' about. Come on, let's go have a bacon sammich.

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## crashdive123

You said bacon............I'M IN!!!!!

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## randyt

I haven't mentioned hog rifle yet...

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## Rick

And coffee.....

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## randyt

coffee yum

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/co...ns-and-coffee/

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## kyratshooter

Dang it I got to reading posts and forgot the coffee was brewing!  

Don't have any bacon.  

Got sausage, the old fashioned country kind you only find in the south.  I had this batch imported up from Tennessee.  I'm far enough north that part of the folks think they are in the mid-west and half the time you can't find decent food.

Lots of folks don't realize there is a difference between Yankee sausage and southern sausage, but there is.

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## Rick

Well, I'll swan. A coffee makin' rifle. Genius. Pure genius.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I used coffee to stain a gunstock once.  It came out coffee colored.  I've never stained anything with bacon though, except the front of my shirt and my pants legs.



Alan

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## Rick

You don't have bacon!!!!! Cheese whiz, I'll be right down.

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## madmax

Ok you thread thieves.  Lol.  Get BACK to work.

I think somebody warned me about this (check it before, or something).  My half cock holds fine.  The other doesn't hold.  Really barely a hesitation as I let off the trigger.  I supposed I'll have to take it off and fiddle with it's innards?

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## randyt

you'll have to take it off. do you have a needle file set? The full cock notch possibly needs squared and deepened and the sear mated squarely to the full cock notch. I don't think a slip stone will do the job but after using the files, the mating surfaces can be stoned.

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## kyratshooter

Most of those kit locks have a set screw that can be turned in and out to limit sear engagement.  Try that first.

If the lock is any good it will have been hardened and a file will not even make a mark on the sear notch.

If it can not be salvaged then Track of the Wolf carries replacement locks of better quality than the originals and parts to repair them.  Traditions also offers parts directly.

You could probably find a replacement for anything if you hunt around at rondys.  I have picked up used locks and parts about every camp I ever went too.

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## madmax

Thanks guys.  I bought files specifically for this and future builds.

Yes,  it has a screw.  I'll try that then Track of the Wolf.  Alafia is almost 4 months away.  I want this done way before then.  I plan on taking cash for good locks and barrels for another couple builds.

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## kyratshooter

Back that set screw out until it holds securely if you bump the hammer with your palm at full cock.  That is all it has to do.  You will not be running around with the gun at full cock anyway. It only stays there for a few seconds as you aim.

The half cock notch is the one that needs to be good and secure. 

The locks in those kits have not changed in 50 years and they are pretty good for commercial hardware, even the cheapest ones.

Does Alafai have an Autumn event?  I have only been to the one in January.  One of the best in the nation too!  I would rather go to Alafai than to any of the NMLRA regional events and I have been to all of them but the Western.

I bout froze down there January 2012!  Ice on the water buckets in Tampa!

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## madmax

We're just leaving a 4 more years/2nd amendment rally but I'll get back to the cabin and take anther look at that lock.
Alafia is once a year in Jan.  We get all kinds of weather there.
Introduced Kelly's nephew last year to the 'vous life.  He's hooked.  Wears homemade mocs and a leather vest he made last year everywhere now.  Lol.

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## madmax

It has 2 screws. One in between the trigger and one behind.  I played around with both and go it to work on two separate tries.  But not repeatable reliably.  I must be doing something wrong.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

> ...  I plan on taking cash for good locks and barrels for another couple builds.


Uh oh...  He's a gonner..,

Alan

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## kyratshooter

Yep Alan, he's screwed!  No hope at this point, especially if this build works good.

OK Max I think we are talking about two different gun parts.  You are talking about the double set trigger unit and I was thinking you were dealing with the lock.

I do not have a set of Traditions triggers right in front of me but I do have a set of Davis triggers and they are pretty generic items.

You have a flat bar (or slightly curved) that has all the parts attached, there should be one screw on the bottom between the two triggers.

The triggers project above the bar through the slot machined in and there will be two springs, one flat spring and one wire spring, located along the flat mounting bar.  

The flat spring powers the speed of movement of the rear trigger and the wire spring is a normal trigger return spring that operates the front trigger.

The back spring, the flat one, has a screw that controls the power that flips the set trigger against the sear of the lock.

When you pull back on the rear trigger you "set" the front trigger.  The slightest touch will make it go off.  The weight needed to "set" the trigger is controlled by the screw between the triggers on the bottom.

If you turn that center screw between the triggers all the way in the triggers will not "set", if you turn it all the way out the trigger will "set" but the front pull will be hard.  You adjust it by finding the position of engagement that gives you the trigger pull you want by playing with that screw between the triggers.  

That is the screw everybody loses and claims there is no difference between the set and unset pull weights.  It is also the screw some folks turn all the way in and claim the gun is equally broken and declare set triggers a waste of time and the ruin of the gun that "used to shoot fine".

The screw on the flat spring controls the power of the flat spring and you need it stout enough that when the rear trigger bar flips up it will hit the sear hard enough to release the sear from the tumbler.  (There is also sometimes a screw in the tumbler of the lock that controls the engagement of the sear blade in the tumbler full cock notch.  That is what I was mistakenly talking about earlier.)

If the gun is set up correctly then the front trigger will make the gun fire with a normal trigger pull if you do not "set" the triggers. 

Pulling the rear trigger until it clicks, will "set" the front trigger and when you barely touch it the rear trigger will flip up and its bar will slap the sear and fire the gun. 

When you are shooting the properly tuned set triggers you can adjust them down to the point that you do not dare set the trigger until you are on target and you don't even brush the front trigger until you have your sight picture perfect. 

Now you are beginning to see why I have been able to buy unfinished kits off of so many people so cheap.  You never tell the seller that his rifle can be fixed by tuning the set triggers or going to the hardware store and buying a tiny metric screw that someone chewed the head off of.

That is another catch to these units, the screws are metric.  The thread pitch on the nipple and powder drum are metric too, as is the ramrod and the thimbles that hold it.  The ramrod probably looks like it is 3/8" but it is actually 8mm.

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## randyt

Been dealing with a tornado, power outage and wet basement. My popcorn sutton book, me and my likker and my wildcat cartridges combo edition got wet I think I can salvage them, damn.

I remember those adjustment screws duh. My muzzleloaders probably predate 1900 and don't remember a adjustment screw on any of the locks. Have made a few tumblers though. I have a zourve reproduction and a couple cheap kit guns that came from my father's but have not even shot those. You know those cheap kits with the splice on the forend. It will kill a deer though.

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## kyratshooter

One of the reasons the manufacturers put the double set triggers on modern ML guns is that it insures a fairly good trigger installed by the home builder.

When using a simple swinging lever trigger you can change the trigger pull dramatically by moving the trigger forward or backward in the gun an eighth or sixteenth of an inch, or up or down in the stock.  Levers are sensitive little devices and their angle of fulcrum to force is crucial.

With the double set triggers you can stick them in anywhere and slap the sear hard enough and the gun will fire and have a 2 oz trigger pull.  I have noticed over the years that even the cheap set triggers in th kits of all makers seem to work well if tuned right.

Those old kits with the two piece stocks are prime examples of how to make every mistake possible when designing a ML gun and still have something that will fire.  

They have always been called a Kentucky kit, no matter who stamped their name on them and they have been made with the exact same machinery since time began.  I know when I pick one up what the problems it has are going to be and why the person finished it the way they did or left it unfinished, gave up and stuck it on the top shelf in the shop to forget about. They are a prime example of what I was talking about with the flaws being designed into the kit from the beginning and never eliminated for 50 years of production through three or four owners of production.

The wood on the barrel is too chunky.  Historic guns had about half that much wood on the forend.  Then the butt stock is about half as wide as is should be, so skinny that it hurts to look at it.  The excess wood is usually proud of the brass furniture and hardware and it requires removal of vast amounts of very hard European beech to get the excess wood down to manageable proportions and even with the lock, buttplate and nose cap.  The barrel inletting is always needing moved back about 3/8" to line the hammer up with the drum and nipple.  That is a job most first time home assemblers do not want to tackle and do not have the tools for, or the training.

And the barrels.  The barrels on those guns are a story unto themselves.  They are made from dead soft steel.  That makes barrel life a short guess and if you fail to clean one of those rifles one single time the rifling will rust to useless before you pick it up for its next use, partly due to the shallow rifling. The rifling is so shallow you have to hunt for it, requiring some very tight parch/ball combinations to gain accuracy.  and they have a wide spot in the bore, all of them!  About 8"-12" from the breech the bore has a wide spot so you have this tight patched ball you are forcing down the bore with all your might and about a foot up from the bottom is hits this fat part and practically falls for the last bit of the loading.

I do not know why it is there, but all of them have it and they always have, ever since I built my first one back in the 1970s. That first one was bought off a guy that had gotten his kit to fire, but just barely.  The barrel was held to the stock with a radiator hose clamp and the hammer and nipple just barely crossed paths enough to fire. 

But they can kill a deer, and they were often a first ML gun that got shooters into the sport back before the in-line guns made the old fashioned ones "obsolete" for any but us old guys that just loved the look and feel of the past era.  People bought them, got them to fire, killed a deer or two with them and graduated to a "good gun" for their next try.

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## madmax

Well,  despite the trouble I'm apparently facing with this build,  I should learn enough to make my next one much better.  I've joined some bp forums and subscribed to muzzleloader mag.  Gotta book coming too.  

My biggest problem with my first AR build was trying to find those damn little springs and detents when they flew across the room. Ok

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## kyratshooter

Well Max, I belonged to all those BP forums back in the day, I have a bunch of books and have thrown away thousands of BP magazines due to insufficient floor joist support.

What you need is the Kit version of the instructions, which is different from the "build from scratch" instructions.  Build from scratch always starts with dropping the barrel in first. Then the touch hole/drum-nipple is located and the lock is inletted based on the position of barrel and touch hole.

Your  kit already has most of that done and you might have to do part of it over.  Your assembly will revolve around the lock and its position.  You will move the barrel to the lock.  But you have to sink that lock into the wood first.

You will need a good sharp 1/4" wood chisel.  By sharp I mean shaving sharp.  You may need a bit of encouragement for the chisel , but not a hammer.  A hammer handle would do, or a length of stout broomstick a foot long or any good piece of seasoned wood about that size.  You are not cutting motises in timber, you are removing what will be about two teaspoons full of wood.

A good pocket knife with a very sharp sheep-foot blade would be handy.  So would some very small craft wood rasps, the small ones that are about 1/4" wide and 6" long, but they are not necessary, just handy.

If you are good with a dremil tool one would be handy with the little bitty sanding drums they use.

For you, the first step should be to inlet the lock plate.  The recess should be about 90% done. 

Normally the instructions will now say to strip the parts off the lock plate.  95% of the time an inexperienced builder will break the mainspring trying to strip the lock.  Then you are looking for parts and in this point in time finding parts that come from Spain, Italy or China is going to be a long slow process.  
The other danger is losing parts.  These builds sometimes take longer than expected, its not a one day job like a snap together model car.  People take them apart and get distracted by life and a year latter when hunting season starts getting close they suddenly have fewer screws than they once had and nothing in the "little bitty screw collection" fits because these are metric screws.

If you feel competent to carefully disassemble the lock go ahead, but if not just leave it alone and work it in there already put together.  

Get inside the recess in the wood with chisels or a Dremil and relieve the internal area where the parts all sink into.  You do not get any support from those areas anyway.  Get it free enough that the lock with its parts assembled on the plate will fall in until the lock plate touches the wood of the outside of the stock.

*Do not touch anything that the lock plate itself will rest on, yet.* 

When the lock plate will touch the wood around the edge of the lock plate inlet you are ready for the important part of the "drop in".

There will be a ledge of wood around the inlet that the lock plate sits on. The plate needs to slip fit into that recess.  The recess is left slightly under-size on purpose due to variations in the lock plates of the many suppliers that have made these locks over the years.

The recess also may not be deep enough to allow full seating of the lock plate against the barrel.  Sometimes life gets tedious.

The trick now it to not remove too much wood.  You do not want a sloppy fit of the plate to wood contact.

Some people would say rub lipstick or inlet black on the parts and try to insert them, then scrape away the marks until the lock fits.

There is an easier and cleaner way and that is using a Sharpie Marker.   

The tricky parts will be places where the internal lock parts come close to the edge of the plate.  There is usually more wood left inside the stock than needs to be in those areas so if you did not get enough clearance when you were hogging out the recess you need to remove that extra wood delicately near the edges of the recess in the stock.

The lock needs to sit down inside the wood and at this point there are a couple of critical places to watch for as the fit gets close.

1. the lock plate will need to sit against the barrel flat.  If your barrel is too big to fit the barrel recess the consider that as you remove wood inside the lock.

2. the hammer of the lock must clear the wood of the stock as it falls.  If your lock plate sinks below the level of the outside of the stock before it rests against the barrel flats that might become an issue.  It is one of those maybe will/maybe won't things and don't worry about it until you see it is going to be an issue.

3. Always remember that anything that will be covered by the lock plate is repairable with properly mixed auto body compound or JB Weld!  Sorry to break the illusion of perfection but the custom builders consider Bondo, JB and Accraglass  essential parts of their tool kit.  They mix it with die to match the wood and no one generally ever notices it. 

And remember that the big flat mortise surface around the lock is "sacrifice wood".  It is planned that you will lower that whole area if necessary.  So if the lock plate sinks below the surface of the lock mortise area to touch the barrel you will be free to flatten and smooth the wood down to the same level as the lock plate surface.  

All of the wood on the outside will be blended and smoothed as a last operation in the process.  

Most first time builders think they are buying a "kit" that they can put together in a couple of hours, sand the wood and go shooting.  I believe we have now burst that bubble.

What you really need as a first time builder is a degree in mechanical engineering and power tools!

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## madmax

Lol.  Well they inset pretty much everything already.  Now it's removing excess wood above the brass.  But the trigger is still a bother.  Got a good 1/4" chisel.  Off grid so no elec.  No dremel.  At home yes.  I'm going slow and working over a white tablecloth to keep track of parts.  I saw some Siler locks at TOTW for around 200 to 250.  I take it that's a good one.  Now just match the period I'm building to?

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## randyt

because of this thread, I decided to pull the trigger on getting a Caywood north west musket kit. Flintlock, plain maple stock, 20 ga, big bow trigger guard, nailed on buttplate. Can't decide on the bridled or unbridled frizzen, don't know enough about it.

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## kyratshooter

Randy get the bridled frizzen.  It has better support and will last longer.  That is why they developed the bridle.  It is the superior of the two mechanisms.

You don't reenact so the time of use is not a real issue and the bridled frizzen was around before the F&I war, but usually not on trade guns. In fact the NW trade gun as we know it was not around until about our REV War. They were also one of the famous "pattern platforms" that changed over the years but stayed the same. NW trade guns sometimes never had either bridled frizzens or tumblers.  They used the most crude of locks right through their production.  I have seen some with bridles but it was not common.

I have seen that Caywood gun and I have seen originals and the Caywood is a better gun than ever saw the shelves of a Hudson Bay trade post. 

Max, if you are OK with sinking that lock in and the barrel then the triggers should not be an issue.  Scrape all that fuzzy wood out and set them in there.  

I am taking it for granted that the barrel tang inletting of the wood has a hole drilled for the tang screw to go down through the stock.  Well the bottom of that tang screw will mate up to the big threaded hole in the long plate the set triggers are mounted to.  That trigger plate holds the back of the barrel in most of the time.  Don't drop the triggers in until you have the barrel inletted.  That way if you have to jiggle things around a little you can scrape a bit more wood out of the trigger slot and make the thing work.

And remember that almost the entire trigger set is going to be covered by the trigger guard.  No one will ever see any of it except the little bit that is visible where the triggers show inside the TG loop.  You can extend the inletting forward or back a good 1/4" and no one could tell.  

You can hog it out with a chain saw and patch it back together with sawdust and Elmer's glue and no one will know as long as it works.   

OK this is where the obsessive compulsive and anal retentive people that accept nothing less than perfect just threw up a little.

Hey, I'll bet you have an "off grid" cordless drill!  Buy a Dremil sanding drum at the Home Depot the next time you go to civilization and chuck it into the cordless drill.  

You should really look into a power inverter for the vehicle.  Comes in handy for all sorts of things.  Low wattage ones are cheap too.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Ryobi makes a cordless rotary tool that runs off of their cordless tool batteries.

This is the one I have.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-18...B&gclsrc=aw.ds


Alan

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## madmax

Ok. True confessions.  I did buy a cordless drill to install the roofing screws on the tin roof when we built the place.  And we did buy a cheap Harbor Freight gennie to charge it (alright, aaand the cell phones too).  I can even get it to run sometimes.  I just double my meds and wait for an hour before starting to pull on that cord.  I have an inverter that works well in my F250.  In the Subaru...not so much.  After a few days of hand sanding I am thinking about a palm sander for the cabin projects.

Some nice soul in South Dakota on another forum sent me a Muzzleloader magazine.  And after a quick look at it, I came to realize you guys were right about my "kit".  Man it's bottom shelf stuff.  If it were booze I'd use it for fire starter.   Lol.  Not really.  It's a learning tool.  Maybe it'll even shoot.  My 'vous persona wouldn't carry one of those fancy guns anyway.

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## madmax

Randyt, I'm thinking about a smooth bore for my next project.  Like a 28g.  Great fun researching and shopping.  Tony

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## randyt

sounds good, I'll get the bridled. One thing about the Caywood, theyre not low cost. This kit will set me back 1300 to 1500 dollars, I think it's worth it. The downside is it's going to take about 6 weeks or so to get. I figure I've been waiting since my early teens, whats another six weeks. Caywood also has the wilson trade gun but the nw gun is the one I have always wanted. I think the nw gun is like the one I've read about in Martin Hunters Canadian wilds book.

here's a link

http://www.caywoodguns.com/2-northwest-trade-gun.html

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## kyratshooter

I had a friend that bought a Caywood English Game gun and another that bought the Wilson trade gun.  Both were outstanding products, but that was 20 years ago.  Still the reputation is holding so I am sure you will be pleased.

The NW gun was a contract item built to pattern for the HBC.  It was THE survival gun of the 19th century, just like the AK of today.  They were supplied all over the world, but were most famous here in North America.  

They were mass produced and had mostly interchangeable parts, so they could be cannibalized to keep part of the guns in a family or tribal camp going constantly.  They were also uniform caliber so the natives could buy precast balls or fire chopped shot.  The touch holes were drilled large enough that they could be primed with course musket powder, so if anyone had powder/lead it would work in any gun in the village.

When you read in the History books about the British supplying guns to the Indians to attack the settlers during the REV War and the War of 1812, it is the NW trade gun that they were handing out.

They were supplied to the Shawnee in great numbers during the 1812 thing and Tecumseh carried one of the fancy models.  So they made their way well into Kentucky and Tennessee and they were all over the territory from the Ohio River to the North Pole and west to the Pacific Ocean.  When you read about the settlers picking up worn out "Indian Fussies" they are talking about NW guns normally.

Just like the eastern settlers carrying surplus muskets as back up hardware, the trappers and mountain men carried the NW gun as a second survival type gun to use if their main rifle went wonky on them.  If they went to the wilderness without a gun they were issued and charged for a NW gun.

They were delivered in several states of finish, so price varied only due to finish condition.  All of the guns were supposed to be the same otherwise.  They can with raw wood and unfinished metal, Painted wood and unfinished metal, and oil finished wood with blued barrels.

They were considered disposable guns, to be used up as necessary during a year in the wilderness, then you traded pelts for a new one next year at 'Vous.

After the suppliers were changed from English craftsmen to the Belgian works the quality went down severely. The Belgian barrels were not proofed to the same standard as the English proof houses demanded.  That was not until the mid 1800s.  You begin to see strange barrels in strange calibers and mixed and matched locks and lock parts that do not interchange.

It is a little known fact that the HBC was owned by the British Royal Family.  That is the equivalent to saying that they owned Walmart for 200 years. 

They also owned the East and West India companies, both traded as private venture stock.  They also owned both North and South Carolina, back in the day, SC was the most wealthy colony in North America.  They had a separate trade company to supply the southern Indians.  That was early (late 1600s and early 1700s) and where the idea of a uniform trade gun came into existence. 

Even the British seem to think they supply the royals with tax money to live on and if they pull that income the royals will languish in poverty.  The truth is that they are independently the most wealthy family in the world, unrivaled by anyone anywhere.

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## madmax

Ah ha!  Me thinks I've found the trigger problem.  The trigger plate doesn't set solid in the inlet until the trigger guard is installed...I think.  If I hold the plate in the hammer holds in half and full cock.  Jeez I understand now the set screw adjustment.  I think mine's at about 50 lbs.

Stay tuned.

----------


## madmax

Randyt, I couldn't sleep much last night and was reading the current issue of American Frontiersman.  Low and behold they had an article about new trade guns.  AND the author portrayed a real French Indian trader.  He featured and had some pics of his gun.  A Caywood.  Looked them up.  Nice.  He said of them, "Not a fancy gun but a common, everyday survival gun made for hard use (echoing kyratshooter).  Just what I'm looking for.

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## randyt

thanks, I'll look that issue up, may even have it. Seems like I pick up a magazine and don't get around to reading it. Never thought I would spend that kind of money on a muzzleloader, what the heck in my world the economy is booming. Only been waiting on a north west trade gun for 40 years, LOL.

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## kyratshooter

Max, as a historian and a reenactor I have to warn you about history and your location.  

Florida is tricky.  Won't get into the historical details but the place was not settled by Americans until after the War of 1812 and the treaty was not ratified until around 1815.

By then the half stock rifle, like the one you have, was common.   Only thing was it was a flintlock.

Now, were I you, I would concentrate on getting the kit you have operational.  Get it to shoot and before you decide to put the finish on it we should talk about your persona depiction and history.  How it is finished out will set the tone for your persona.

After you get the rifle to the point that it can shoot the next money you might want to consider would be an L&R flintlock to replace the percussion lock in the rifle you have.  That would put you rifle back to the 1800 time era, and would cover Florida settlement up to the Civil War.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/759/1

Look down at the bottom of the page, you will see a flint lock for the Investarms Hawkin.  It costs $190 but that is cheaper than $1000-$1500 for a custom gun.  L&R makes a good lock.

If you put that lock on your rifle it would look very much like a Springfield 1803 rifle.

After you have the kit you have done, if you get the flint lock installed, you will have some time to hunt and think about what you want and what was normal for your area.  

You are correct in your evaluation of the people in Florida being "poor folks".  It was really a desolate place and took a long time to fill up.  Just keep in mind that the second Seminole War did not end, period!  We are still at war with Asieola. 

Colt went down there in person to promote his newly invented revolvers to the officers for private purchase.

Up in the other southern states if a person wants to start reenacting Civil War, and has no money, each state organization has a "Florida Regiment" that the new and ill equipped can enter until they get the correct gear!

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## madmax

I did do some research before buying the kit.  It is a flintlock not percussion and is relatively period  correct for pre-1840.  Alafia is pre-1840.  The trigger and lock assembly is working now and I have the correct size flints for it.  I'm going to do your suggestions for finish on the stock and rust and bacon grease on the barrel.

I just got delivered a book on Seminoles.  And I have spent some time the last few years camping over in the Indian section.  Learned a lot.  Also got patterns in for Indian garb and the differences between tribal markings.  

As you know,  Alafia is pretty lenient if you are trying.  Nobody says anything about your flat stitches or that wonderful Tandy colored mocs. 
In fact you'll probably get a little education and a lot of hand me downs to get better situated with your kit..

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## madmax

I should add that now that my kit that I take is socially acceptable down there, my desire for more period correct gear is personal.  I'm sure many others have started out just wanting to participate and "get by" with the minimum cash outlay and gear.  Then got bitten by the bug and begun to fine tune their kit and persona. That's kinda where I'm at now.  Some guy had some old traps he was unloading last year at the 'vous.  I should've snagged some for authenticity around camp.

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## kyratshooter

I would not get in a big rush to buy traps Max.  The little traps you find most of the time at rondys are not like the big traps needed for beaver, and trapping in general was more of a northern and western activity.

The southerners were more like "market hunters", shooting deer for their hides, than small critters for their pelts.  Southern critters seldom had prime pelts to start with, it was not cold enough down here.

We did have deer, and the shops and factories needed our deer hides.  Part of being an apprentice in Great Britain, or most of Europe, was being supplied with clothing by the master.  This was the hand craft era, and there were strict guild laws on how to treat your help.  He was required to furnish one pair of pants and two shirts each year.  Those pants were usually made from deer-hide for durability.  (think about those leatherhosen the Germans still have as a nations folk costume)

The southern ports of Biloxi, MS,/ Mobile, AL,/ Charleston, SC/ and Savanna,GA all shipped an average of 500,000 deerhides each year.  That is not counting the ports of Natchez and New Orleans, or any of the ports in VA.

We are probably talking in excess of 2 million deer killed each year for almost 100 years.  That is what wiped out the deer heard in the south, not the Great Depression as some think.  The deer were gone from the south by 1825.  In some areas sooner. 

So a southern man was a hunter primarily, smoking and jerking as much of the deer meat as he could for the winter, killing as many hogs as he could find, and raising a patch of vegetables on the side.  

Florida would have a reputation for wild hogs, swamp bear, small swamp deer and wild turkey right up to the 20th Century.  Florida men were also famous for shooting wild birds for the clothing and hat industry up north.

Here is a good reference for Siminole gear.  Much of this list was collected and compiled from museum originals by the University of Florida history and archaeology departments.  I have used it for pattern help many times and never had a problem with authenticity at any historic site I used the gear at.

http://www.nativetech.org/seminole/index.php

Beware of the "documentation" you get from modern Indians.  Most are self taught and never walked through the door of a museum and only know what they picked up at the family reunion or souvenir shop.

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## madmax

Yes.  I've used that site.  1st time for top seam mocs and a loincloth.

Lol.  Yeah, I noticed that some of the longest winded in that section knew the least history
I've really narrowed my sources there down a lot over the years.  Researching old drawings, paintings, and writings from that era seems to be pretty accurate.

Gun is coming along well.  The kit is pretty well done.  I expected a lot more aggravation putting it together.  Beginner's luck?  But it ain't over until the fat lady sings.

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## kyratshooter

Tradition says that when you get the barrel, lock and triggers set into the stock you are required to test fire the half finished gun even if everything is held together with duct tape and radiator clamps!

It's a rule!

Be careful using paintings and drawings for documentation.  Much of the American historical art work was done 100 years after the events and is as much imagination as a Loony Tune with the same amount of historic accuracy.  It was not like the last 100 years when a picture was considered a historic record, right up until photo-shop was invented.

The thing is that each reenactor is "winging it" as best they can using the sources they have.

On top of that many of the historic sites interpret things differently and many of the people working there are not up on new developments in the field.  They are using the history they learned in high school or college 20-40 years ago, but what they say is gospel at that particular site.  The next site might be totally different.

The worst sites are the ones that do a "frozen moment in time".  They will drive you crazy telling people "They didn't have that around here." when as a scholar you know that they did have that item or that food in that exact location.  Then when you present them with a National Geographic with the archaeological evidence verified they will look at you dead faced and say"I don't accept your documentation" and they spend the next two days trying to throw you off their site and out of their state. 

Then there are places like Ft Toulouse over in Alabama just north of Mobile Bay.  They have a fort that was established by the French as a trade post and settlement colony in 1715, taken over by the Spanish, then the British and finally by the Americans in 1815.  You can be anyone you want and carry anything you wish, as long as it makes sparks when you shoot it. 

The confusion and attitude of the museum staff in some places is why so many people refuse to do anything but the unjurried pre-1840 events and just skip the hassle.

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## madmax

Well I wouldn't want to break tradition.  Lol.  Guess I better order up some accouterments and see if I can find some double F and 4F without buying a case.

From what I've read about other events I think Alafia will be hard to beat for me.  We have a local knap in and there's an Indian presence and a few half-hearted civil war reenactors.  Some pioneer days around.  But nothing like setting up for 13 days and really living it (sort of).

Do you guys bed your barrels or just hook and wedge them?

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## kyratshooter

I have never really "bedded" one of mine but I have taken to reinforcing the back of the breech inlet with either Acraglass or JB Weld.  I have gone back and redone most of mine even if I did not build them that way.

It is difficult to get the inlet perfectly exact up and down and along the back surface of the barrel and tang.  All of the recoil force goes directly back to that point and if the inlet is not perfect the force is concentrated on some place it does not need to be and something cracks.  I have seen some that had no wood supporting the lock side of the barrel tang at all.  Every bit of the recoil force was going into about 1/3 of the wood holding the tang.

If you "bed" that one portion you can stop some stock splitting before it begins.  On that area if a split starts it can be very exciting.

I don't remember about your particular kit but I have gotten into a couple of scratch builds that had that tang inlet weakening the wrist, then the tang screw went through from top to bottom, then one of the lock screws would pass through the tang extension to hold the lock in place, creating the weakest place on the stock where it was drilled three different directions in less than an inch of space.  Plus you had the lock inlet and barrel channel, and the set triggers inletted in that spot. 

Sometimes I don't see how they hold together at all.

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## madmax

Okay.  The back of the inlet seats pretty well that I can see.  Haven't reinforced it yet.  I will.  Sounds like good insurance.  But I just  had to  temporarily set the barrel in place.  What the hell?  This thing must weight 40 lbs!  I have racing kayaks and canoes that weigh less!  Are all flintlock shooters on steroids?  

Lol.

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## kyratshooter

Well Max that is the price you pay for "pretty".  

But after you carry one of those things all day your concept of "pretty" can change.

The brass hardware on that Hawkin tips the scales about equal to the weight of that last AR you built.

And I think the barrel on that .50 comes in at about 6 oz. per inch, I'm not sure. Dixie Gun Works used to have a chart in their catalog that gave barrel weight in each diameter and caliber so you could figure that out in advance.  I have a .45 caliber on a one inch across the flats barrel on a heavy stock Jager rifle, with heavy brass hardware that comes in close to 13 pounds.

One fact that is permanently embedded in the gun build planning section of my brain cells, the 13/16" .45 barrel will be the lightest barrel in any length.  It will have the thinnest barrel walls of any caliber/diameter.  

When I had my first back injury I did not own a BP rifle that the doctor would allow me to pick up and hang on the wall, much less carry hunting.  I wound up building a stripped down "TN poor boy rifle" with no butt plate, a thin iron trigger guard, no lock side plate, no patch box and only two thin sheet steel ramrod thimbles.  I put it in a very slender maple full-stock and I used one of those 13/16" Green Mountain barrels in .45 and got it in under 8 pounds. 

It was confiscated by my late wife as soon as she laid eyes on it and it is still one of my favorite rifles.

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## kyratshooter

How's it progressing Max?

Had time to do any work?

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## madmax

I'm in town right now picking up some jb weld for reinforcement of the stock behind the tang and plug.  My barrel is lined up about right so I just cover the wood face with a little jb weld?

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## kyratshooter

I sometimes drill a couple of small holes, 1/8" diameter or so, back into the stock to give the JB Weld a place to anchor.  one small hole on the left and right and one at the back of the tang.  It helps spread the recoil force from the barrel evenly into the wood.  At least I think it does.

Be sure to coat your metal surfaces with petroleum jelly or some thick goo to prevent the JB from locking the metal to wood.

BTW, the touch hole that goes through the barrel should fit so that it is even with the top of the priming pan when the frizzen is open.  If it is down low in the pan it will cause that delayed fire everyone talks about constantly.

The powder has to burn its way down to the touch hole if it is low in the pan.  If it is even with the pan edge the flash will jump up through the touch hole, just like a carburetor sucking gas up from the float bowl.

Most of the time you only have to adjust it a fraction up or down.  If it is low you can set a wood chip under the tang to lift it as the JB creates its new home.  

If the hole is high you may have to scrape a little wood to get it lower, but as long as the closed frizzen pan covers the touch hole it will probably work, even a smidgen high.  That flash will jump a good bit upward.

Now is the time to insure that relationship, before you install the JB Weld.    

We will wait until we see how it fires before we start talking about drilling out the flash hole liner.  The touch hole is usually way too small in those kits.  On the metric kits they usually drill the hole 1.5mm and that is sometimes too small, especially if you can not get 4f powder.  BP is hard enough to get, much less in exactly the grade you want.

Back in the day they had one grade, it was whatever you could get!  You fired and primed with the same powder.  After 60 years of reading history I have never crossed a reference to anyone carrying a priming horn or using special priming charge anywhere on the frontier.  That is a modern thing.

In military firing drill the first step was tearing open the cartridge with your teeth, prime the pan and close the frizzen.  Then you poured the remainder of the cartridge down the barrel.

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## madmax

Thanks.  I'll set the barrel today and track down some B.P. and a measure.  I have a horn at home that came from my fil's wall hanger kit.  
I guess I'll trust the manufacturer's recommendations on ball size at first.

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## madmax

Ok.  The top of the pan almost perfectly bisects the flash hole so I'm going to leave the height alone.  Unless you think I should raise it some.

Man,  I wish there were someplace closer to get some bp things so I can test fire this puppy.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Im going to check that flash hole height on mine. If I remember, my pan covers part of the hole. I never gave it much thought, a assuming that was how it was supposed to be...

Alan

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## madmax

Ok.  The top of the pan almost perfectly bisects the flash hole so I'm going to leave the height alone.  Unless you think I should raise it some.

Man,  I wish there were someplace closer to get some bp things so I can test fire this puppy.

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## kyratshooter

The flash hole height sounds fine.

BP is impossible to get through the mail and freight carriers do not like to deal with it at all.  They often require me to go to the "headquarters" and pick up normal reloading components.  

I am fortunate to live near Friendship, where they sell BP at the national matches, to members only.  I am talking tons of BP in sealed powder magazines.  I looked like a kid in Willy Wonka"s chocolate factory the first time I saw that!  They are approved by the ATF to do that.

I did live far from any source at one time and discovered a few tricks.

One is to join a reenactment group that does regular battle reenactments.  As historic sites have a bit os special leeway those groups often have BP shipped in for a single battle and distribute either pre-rolled paper cartridges or often give a 1# can to each participant for use during the battle.  

If you die real quick, preferably under a shade tree, you never use the entire pound of powder, or all the cartridges, and have leftover for your own use.

Those groups also often know dealers in the area that sell BP but do not advertise it. 

Another trick that is helpful, after you get a bit of powder, is to use one of the BP substitutes, Triple Seven,  Pyrodex or one of the others as your main charge with a priming charge of real black to ignite them.

Pour down 20 grains of 2f, followed by 60 grains of BP substitute, seat your ball on top.

You can squeeze 300-400 shots from a can of BP doing that, and use the Walmart bought substitute as the main charge.

There is an alternative that has not been mentioned.  You can buy a percussion lock, screw out the flash liner, and install a drum and nipple and use it as a percussion rifle for general shooting with BP substitutes.  Converting it back to flint for reenactments is a 5 minute job.

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## madmax

Thanks again.

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## kyratshooter

Like I said, I know the irritation of not having access to BP.

I wish we had a good photo posting link.  I have one "work around" that you would not believe.

Early on I decided that with good flint lock actions being very expensive, and me only able to shoot one rifle at a time, I would inlet all my guns to use the Siler large lock.  I could move that $250 lock from gun to gun. It works well and I now have 3-4 of the locks to use on my 6-8 flint guns.

With BP being scarce at that time I decided to "make do" in a novel way.  I ordered an extra frizzen for the Siler lock.  I cut the striking surface, the battery, from the frizzen and then drilled and tapped the pan cover for a #11 nipple.

I have a small block of metal that I can clamp in the jaws of the flint hammer that strikes the cap set on that nipple screwed into the top of the pan cover.

I do not have to have a drum and nipple or change anything on the gun, I just change out the modified frizzen pan cover for the flint frizzen and clamp that piece of metal in place of the flint.  I can put that on any of the Siler locks I have and instantly convert to percussion.

You can load it with pyrodex, prime it with pyrodex and shoot it like a regular percussion gun.

It looks like crap on a cracker and I take it off of my "pretty guns" so no one sees it, but it lets me shoot even if only pyrodex is available.

Yep, I was pretty desperate when I thought that up!

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## randyt

That's a great way to work around a flint to percussion. I'm fortunate when it comes to bp. My father and myself bought a case a peice years back. Still have a bunch of it left.

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## madmax

I think we're going to see a lot more DIY stuff on everything.  Not just BP.  I decided to get around to finishing an ar pistol and found compete uppers in 300 blk a bit scarce.  Especially if you know exactly what you want.  Actually good because it turned me back to completing my Hawken's first.

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