# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > General Homesteading >  Advice for a beginner on everything necessary for Living in the Wild.

## Nessa

Hello everybody, my name is Vanessa, im 16 and brand new to this website. I live in civilized California and I honestly hate it from the pit of my existence. Ive never fit in with these petty teenagers and their superficial interests and all ive ever wanted to do since the first time i went camping (and still had clear sight of freeways and telephone poles) was move far far out into the wild where no one would ever walk across my homestead, and id never have to hear the sound of car motors racing across the freeway. I know im young and it seems like a temporary desire, but id really like to be taken seriously because moving to the wilderness is something i genuinely plan to do as soon as legally possible. I can do without the mass produced over processed food, dirty air and cable television, shopping malls and whatever other silly commodities people automatically assume a teenage girl cant live without. I do however recognize the immense amount of manual labor and planning required when considering living independently. My "plan" , or fantasy is once i find a husband with similar aspirations , we move either to the sequoia mountains, smokey mountains, or possibly even alaska, and build a log cabin. Ive watched the swift construction of many such cabins take place and with a few helpers , which is more than the simple strong two men required, we can build one pretty easily. Sounds naive but theres not much planning required as far as ive seen and im educated enough to do whatever measurements would be needed for a successful home. After building a log cabin and purchasing a furnace and simple amenities, i figured the only work necessary would be hunting, self sufficient farming, and gathering massive amounts of firewood before winter. Work sounds perfect because what else would you do to occupy yourself in the middle of nowhere, and it sure as hell beats sitting in an office.As far as my presumtions am i mislead? I would just like to know what is to be expected, and what i could do for preparation as of now, so  when the time comes, which is only a few years away, i may have the mentality and preparation skills or at least realistic expectations for it to happen. I was also thinking, (my father is pretty lenient and im only a few months away from my diploma) would it be a good idea to camp out in Big Bear once im around 17 and just reside there long term for practice as a learning experience? I just want to know suggestions, where is a good beautiful place to live forever, what is required, what do i do now if i really expect myself to survive later. Most people ive met who really live in the wild have been raised that way since birth so.. i dont know! Help please. Am i in over my friggin head?

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## crashdive123

Here is some information that may answer some of your questions.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...t-Really-Works

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ve-in-the-Wild

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ld-a-log-cabin

If this is truly a dream and not just a fling, then map out your goal.  Spend your time working toward that goal.  You will need to buy the land - so you will need money - unfortunately there really are no free parcels available.  Learn the skills you will need.

We've got several members that are doing what you want to do (or at least something close to it).  It may mean taking a job as an apprentice to learn what you need.

The key for you will be to figure out exactly what you want, have a plan to get there and work that plan.

Good luck.

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## hunter63

Hunter63 saying Hey and Welcome.

Get permission and support from your parents.

Start slow, camping out is a good start....making fire, finding and processing water, finding or growing plants, cook some meals and making shelter.

Work on finding a place you like, .....visit to see if it meets your expatiations...in more than one season.

Check out possible jobs for making money, learn what grows there, and how to garden,..... what hunting season are open and when, learn hunting methods, processing game, and cooking it.

Plan, gather materials, and build something,...... a shed at home is a good starting project.

The way is long, hard, expensive, but do-able.

Good luck

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## Rick

welcome home.

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## Ken

> After building a log cabin and purchasing a furnace and simple amenities, i figured the only work necessary would be hunting, self sufficient farming, and gathering massive amounts of firewood before winter............Am i in over my friggin head?


Ummm, have you given any thought to medical and dental care?  How about communications with the outside world?  Cell phone?  Transportation other than horseback or similar means?  Schools for any children you may have?  Clothing?  

You wrote "furnace."  I'm not familiar with any "furnace" that doesn't require electricity to engage a thermostat or run a pump or a fan.

Are you planning on raising livestock and poultry? Think milk, eggs, butter, cheese....  If not, you better be prepared for a very limited diet and a whole lot of time preserving food.  Don't most states have limits on the number of deer, moose, bear, elk, etc. that you can take in any single year?

Your "fantasy" is certainly possible, but unless you have a source for generating cash or you become an expert at bartering, life as you know it will become a distant memory.

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## Nessa

Yea, if im in the wild i really dont care what my teeth look like.. so worst case scenario they rot out and im ugly. no biggy. Medical care, i could learn basic first aid and if nature kills me, at least il die natural the way nature intended, and il have a nice view while i take my last breaths I dont even use the cell phone i have now, it doesnt interest me and i dont see how id have reception anyway. what i have left of family now isnt that important to me other than my dad and he loves the wild too and whenever i ramble on about my future he says hel have a cabin miles away too. Im not a very attached person anyways, i see the temporary-ness in everybody and am pretty emotionally prepared for loss, i mean im used to it. Im not fertile so children are out of the question and i already have pessimistic views about the future so i wouldnt bring life into this world even if i could. and by furnace i meant woodstove, but made out of steel. Ive seen them before although im unsure of their proper name. And yeah poultry seems like a good idea but arent there wolves and bears? Ive heard of powdered eggs and such , so that could work until i ever found means of maintaining animals. As for transportation, id use my feet and a compass. Vehicles need gas and an open road and horses need maintenance. And i understand the financial part being a giant empty factor i havent figured out yet. It will probably kill me but i guess im gonna have to get a job and save up until im sitting on enough money to afford the only thing i really want to do. I could.. grow weed? Sell furs? i dunno.

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## Ken

> *Yea, if im in the wild i really dont care what my teeth look like.. so worst case scenario they rot out and im ugly. no biggy. Medical care, i could learn basic first aid and if nature kills me, at least il die natural the way nature intended*, and il have a nice view while i take my last breaths I dont even use the cell phone i have now, it doesnt interest me and i dont see how id have reception anyway. what i have left of family now isnt that important to me other than my dad and he loves the wild too and whenever i ramble on about my future he says hel have a cabin miles away too. Im not a very attached person anyways, i see the temporary-ness in everybody and am pretty emotionally prepared for loss, i mean im used to it. *Im not fertile so children are out of the question* and i already have pessimistic views about the future so i wouldnt bring life into this world even if i could. *and by furnace i meant woodstove*, but made out of steel. Ive seen them before although im unsure of their proper name. And yeah poultry seems like a good idea but arent there wolves and bears? Ive heard of powdered eggs and such , so that could work until i ever found means of maintaining animals. As for transportation, id use my feet and a compass. Vehicles need gas and an open road and horses need maintenance. And i understand the financial part being a giant empty factor i havent figured out yet. It will probably kill me but i guess im gonna have to get a job and save up until im sitting on enough money to afford the only thing i really want to do. I could.. grow weed? Sell furs? i dunno.



You are absolutely clueless, and I really think that you're a troll.  

If not, do yourself a favor and work as hard and as long as you need to and save up enough money to buy yourself an affordable condo.  Contact your local social services agency and immediately sign up  for a class in basic living skills.

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## Ken

> It will probably kill me but i guess im gonna have to get a job and save up until im sitting on enough money to afford the only thing i really want to do. I could.. grow weed? Sell furs? i dunno.


Here's a suggestion:  Sell your brain for medical research.  You're not using it.

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## natertot

Nessa, what your wanting to say is doable. I first want to challenge you with something. You are 16yo, and you stated that you want to be where no one will come across you. This tells me that you are probably going through a rough spot in your life. Typical, as all teens go through at least a bit of a wanting to withdrawl. I encourage you to go camping, learn skills, and experience all that you can in this world. Whether or not you succeed, one day you will have to look back at your life and you will wish that you repaired any relationships and/or hurt.

If it is a spat with your folks, work with them.
If it is a bad home environment, seek help from a school counselor.
If it is school, go to a school counselor and your parents.
If it is a boyfriend, there are more guys out there...... unless you lose your teeth! (just kidding a bit)

Basically, whatever trials you are dealing with, there is a way through. Even if you accomplish your dream, you will not be happy unless you have fixed the issue. You can run from yourself, but you won't get far.

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## Nessa

Ken, your pretentious attitude served me a good laugh, although im surprised you think im a troll. Through my sixteen years of living, ive been to the dentist once, before i could even remember.(my teeth are fine) And i highly doubt that occupants of rural farms really take an annual drive for their yearly check-up, so i dont know whats so odd about that. Same with doctors, I dont have health insurance and i dont have common visits ever..(im healthy) What i say is true and for someone talking so smart, itd seem you would have the common sense to look at the title of where your commenting at, i *am* clueless, thats why im here and the sole purpose of this post. Wood-stove? is there something funny about that? Im _unsure_ thats kind of why im asking. So i hope downgrading a teenage girl gave you a good ego boost, hoorah for you sir, your smarter than the average civilized sixteen year old, you should get an award for that. At least i have the reassurance of superior intellect because i know thats something i would never waste my time trying to do.And the last part is a little something called subtle humor, get over it. Its clear to me your so ignorant and hollow you probably have nothing beneficial to offer me anyways considering your naive enough to draw presumptions about my life, like a lack of knowledge in basic living /You are really rude. Why are you so intolerant of a shortfall of primitive knowledge? Not everyone has the blessing of being born into undomesticated land, so why hold expectations and be so offensively critical? "move to a condo" . Pfah, hah. Whats wrong with you? Your infected with insolence. Are people not born into your acquired lifestyle unworthy of living it? get real. Do you really have nothing better to do but attempt to make other people look stupid? Thats like if i were teaching a kindergartner the alphabet and laughed at them for not knowing the correct order. That would say im an insecure arrogant bastard.   just go if you dont have any credible advice to give. leave. thanks for the laugh though (: and i like your avatar.

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## Nessa

(: thank you all. When i get a backyard, the shed idea is going down. fantastic idea.

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## crashdive123

Nessa - rather than focus on the response that you did not like, why not focus on the others......unless of course you didn't like any of them.  While at 16 you may think dental hygiene is all about appearance, you would be incorrect.  Also at 16 you may not see a need for medical services, you will if you intend to grow older or receive a serious injury.

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## Ken

> Ken, your pretentious attitude served me a good laugh, although im surprised you think im a troll. Through my sixteen years of living, ive been to the dentist once, before i could even remember.(my teeth are fine) And i highly doubt that occupants of rural farms really take an annual drive for their yearly check-up, so i dont know whats so odd about that. Same with doctors, I dont have health insurance and i dont have common visits ever..(im healthy) What i say is true and for someone talking so smart, itd seem you would have the common sense to look at the title of where your commenting at, i *am* clueless, thats why im here and the sole purpose of this post. Wood-stove? is there something funny about that? Im _unsure_ thats kind of why im asking. So i hope downgrading a teenage girl gave you a good ego boost, hoorah for you sir, your smarter than the average civilized sixteen year old, you should get an award for that. At least i have the reassurance of superior intellect because i know thats something i would never waste my time trying to do.And the last part is a little something called subtle humor, get over it. Its clear to me your so ignorant and hollow you probably have nothing beneficial to offer me anyways considering your naive enough to draw presumptions about my life, like a lack of knowledge in basic living /You are really rude. Why are you so intolerant of a shortfall of primitive knowledge? Not everyone has the blessing of being born into undomesticated land, so why hold expectations and be so offensively critical? "move to a condo" . Pfah, hah. Whats wrong with you? Your infected with insolence. Are people not born into your acquired lifestyle unworthy of living it? get real. Do you really have nothing better to do but attempt to make other people look stupid? Thats like if i were teaching a kindergartner the alphabet and laughed at them for not knowing the correct order. That would say im an insecure arrogant bastard. just go if you dont have any credible advice to give. leave. thanks for the laugh though (: and i like your avatar.



I don't believe a word of your posts.  There are far too many inconsistencies.  Don't blow smoke up my azz, okay?   :Sneaky2:

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## Wildthang

Nessa just take your time and learn bushcraft well, get a backpack and some basic essentials, go camping and learn to use them. You have plenty of time to learn! PS, welcome to the forum!

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## welderguy

Howdy welcome aboard!!

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## welderguy

Now may i make a suggestion, Try using paragraphs when you post .

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## Rick

You could even go with threeagraphs or fouragraphs if necessary.

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## welderguy

> You could even go with threeagraphs or fouragraphs if necessary.


 I forgot about those, I'm still in the paragraph stage.

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## BENESSE

Ken's right. Major inconsistencies in Nessa's story. _IMO_, she doesn't use a language any 16yr old would use...whether she fits in her world or not. Something is amiss, and I guess, we'll find out soon enough. We always do.

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## Ken

California, huh?  I have this crazy feeling that maybe, just maybe, he, I mean she, has been on the Forums before.  Did she come from the WEST, or the SOUTH, or maybe from France?   :Innocent:

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## Nessa

Your right and thank you for the links they were really interesting. Especially the one about the Alaskan winters, loved the hell out of it.

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## Nessa

Im flattered, because on everything i love, i really am 16, and if you find inconsistencies with life then whatever. I dont see why anyone would waste their time pretending to be a clueless teenage girl that wants to move to the country, thats just absurd. do i need to post a picture or something? i read a lot. shouldnt have to prove my identity.

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## Nessa

(: your. a . joke. theres nothing inconsistent with the truth. get over yourself.

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## Ken

> (: your. a . joke. theres nothing inconsistent with the truth. get over yourself.


You may in fact be a 16 year old girl.  That does not change the fact that your story is laden with contradictions and statements that are obviously false, and that has NOTHING to do with your writing style.  Tearing apart stories like yours is how I earn my living.

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## hunter63

Yeah, Ken we know....LOL......can we just play the game for a while?....been slow....and No $400.000 for walking out.

Actually it was great being 16....I knew everything there was to know by then.....and because you are older, doesn't mean you stop being 16.....Right?

Anyway Nessa, you seem to take most any and all possibilities for living in a wilderness, as "No big deal"........Well that just tells me that you never tried it......The big deal is that ...do it wrong, you just die....no re-set button.

As much as we would like to encourage the younger members to follow their dream, it has to be tempered with a dose of reality....and being 16, that hard to hear.

So who ever you are.......I wish you well,.... but remember when you ask a question, be ready for answers from them that have been there, that you might not want to hear.

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## Nessa

then tear it apart, try. its gonna be funny because its the truth.

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## Nessa

your right, its no walk in the park and i havent done it. i just want too. i never said i thought it was easy as a whole, i want the dose of reality. thats why im on here. i want to know what its like from people actually doing it. what ken is saying has nothing to do with that . I may be young but i still know people, people who have lived entire lifetimes without running to the dentist or doctor everytime they dont feel well, so other than that i dont see whats wrong with constructive criticism. but trying to rip apart my personal reality is just plain immature and useless. thank you though and i appreciate the insight.

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## Ken

I'll give you one reason. Just one. You'll have to figure the rest out before you sling your BS wherever you land next. 

You CLAIM that you _"highly doubt that occupants of rural farms really take an annual drive for their yearly check-up, so i dont know whats so odd about that. Same with doctors, I dont have health insurance and i dont have common visits ever..(im healthy)..." 

_AND you CLAIM that you're "_not fertile so children are out of the question..."

_So, how about school immunization records or physician's waivers?  (Mandatory in California!) Doesn't apply to you, huh?

School annual physical exam requirements?  Eye exams?  (Mandatory in California!)

Who determined that you - *AT 16* - are "infertile?"  Your hair stylist?  That requires a LONG and COMPLICATED series of medical tests and treatments before a diagnosis can be made - and they DON'T do that at age 16.  

I'm sure you can come up with some lame explanations, and I can even think of a few myself, but they'll be just as false as your original posts.

And DON'T tell us that you're home schooled.  Too late for that B.S.  

I have no use for people who fabricate crap like you did here.

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## Nessa

HA , great . This is stuff that all has a real response and can easily be deducted to nothing. I was born with the chord wrapped around my neck and a disease having something to do with ingested fecal matter. Bottom line is I had preset complications and once i hit 15 never getting my period, I went to the doctor, he looked at my records, put gel on my stomach and said, yeah it aint happening. You get shots and immunizations at CVS, look it up. I dont go to school and as i said in the post im a few months away from my diploma, so im exempt from that mandated crap anyway. Name a public highschool where you can graduate at 16, doubt you can. Online school my friend. Its not bull**** just because you arent here to witness it. Its in my post so i mean , come on. i "fabricated" that before i even knew who you were.

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## Nessa

I have never , never in my life had a physical exam where a doctor took a peep at my funny business. I would remember that okay. you really truly are trying to prove nothing and just to prove you wrong (which i dont even know why im trying to do) im going to upload a picture of myself for my avatar and your gonna feel really frikkin stupid you a hole.

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## Nessa

One last thing, if i werent homeschooled, i would be in school right now. Its 3:00 on a monday.

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## Ken

Bullsh!t.  That is all.

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## Ken

BTW.... I was 16 when I began my senior year of high school, and dismissal time at high school was at 2:08 p.m.

And I'm gonna' load a pic of me getting sworn in as Secretary General of the United Nations as my new avatar.

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## Nessa

The only bull**** here is that you are a lawyer. dumbass

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## crashdive123

The IP address is coming from where she says it is and no other member has posted using it.

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## Ken

> The IP address is coming from where she says it is and no other member has posted using it.


Awesome.  A new troll.

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## crashdive123

Let it go everybody.  Remember - no personal attacks.

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## Ken

Very impressive avatar, Nessa.  It says everything we need to know about you.

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## crashdive123

Nessa - since you can still read this after I banned you........

You will never realize your dream until you grow up.  You, young lady - do not have a clue.

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## Ken

> You are absolutely clueless...





> You, young lady - do not have a clue.


At least I have a souvenir this time.  Should I frame her avatar since I went through all of the trouble of saving a copy of it?  After all, it does mention me by name, LOL.

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## Ken

Nominations for "The Troll Hall of Fame" are now open.

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## crashdive123

1.  I wouldn't save it.
2.  Not even an honorable mention IMO.

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## crashdive123

Nessa - you have asked me to lift the ban because you are not a troll.  Be that as it may - you do not have the maturity to interact with others on here.  You posted a selfie holding a sign that was crude and vulgar.  We have children on this forum - children younger than you.  

You asked a question and got some serious replies.  You also got replies that doubted that you were who you said you were.  Why do you think that is?  Let me help you a bit to understand.....Your post basically said I'm 16.  I have no idea what I'm doing, but life sucks and I'm going to run away to the woods to live.  

So you want complete strangers to give advice to a child on how to ditch life?  No parents involved?  Really?

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## BENESSE

Here's a real bit of advice. If you can't relate to most kids your age that you come across (I can understand that) find those who share your interests. Look at "Meet Ups", join a hiking club, volunteer for Peace Corps...there are tons of free things to take advantage of and learn some useful skills that will come in handy in reaching your goals.
You need hands on experience and for that you have to _plug in._

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## BENESSE

http://www.peacecorps.gov/learn/

http://www.wildernessvolunteers.org/

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## Rick

Holy cow. Much ado about nothin'. Keep movin' folks. Nothin' here to see.

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## BENESSE

> Holy cow. Much ado about nothin'. Keep movin' folks. Nothin' here to see.


When there's nothing to do yo make ado.

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## Rick

If that we my youngin' I'd be sorely concerned about her especially posting stuff like that on the internet. There are enough loons out here that would be more than happy to help her (he said sarcastically).

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## BENESSE

If parents were more involved with their kids, they wouldn't have the need to check out like that. Notice, it's never a kid in the National Honor Society, someone who plays a team sport, or has close family ties. It makes me particularly sad because I know they aren't happy and they're looking for an escape. From a pot into a frying pan.

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## Rick

Every kid is susceptible I don't care where they come from. Kids have some weird brain cells until they get about 30 or so.

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## crashdive123

They say that 70 is the new 30. :Innocent:

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## Rick

Boy don't I know that. If I've managed to kill off all the bad brain cells and this is what's left I must have started out with some real duds. 

"Neurons Rule!!! Let's party down dendrites."

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## hunter63

Its the buffalo theory......
Quote>
Cliff expounds his "Buffalo Theory" to Norm:

“Well, you see, Norm, it’s like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it’s the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

 In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.

 And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.”  <Quote

http://www.davidstuff.com/humor/buffalo.htm

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## RangerXanatos

I guess I missed the whole charade.  I believe some of her story.  I was never immunized but went to public school.  Have only been to the dentist once and that was when i was around 25.  Never been to the MD.  I'd like to think I'm healthier than most and have perfectly capable teeth.  I have a close friend who was told that it would be hard to get a girl pregnant because of something in his nether regions.  It was checked when he was a child and never again since?  But alas he gotten his fiance pregnant twice but they lost both of them early on.  But those were because of his fiance's nether region is all messed up.

Regardless of all of this being fact or fiction, there was no need for the attitude that happened here.  How much more would everyone be capable of getting more done if attitudes, name calling, and bickering were dropped and everything was discussed as adults.

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## 1stimestar

My daughter has had no vaccinations.  She goes to public schools.  Has only EVER been to the dr. when she broke her arm ice skating (was even born at home).  She's been to the dentist once for a cleaning.  Sure sounded like a 16 year old girl to me.  California also has a personal belief waiver for vaccinations, but it's not too hard to get a medical waiver.  There are a lot of reasons for not vaccinating.

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## Ken

I just checked my kid's medical records.

Perhaps I'm not the average parent, but, as recommended, each of my 3 kids had regular preventive health care appointments with....

A pediatrician about 6 times between birth and their first birthday.

A pediatrician at about 18 months of age.

A pediatrician once each year between the ages of 2 to 12.

A physician once each year between the ages of 13 to 21.

A dentist once each year at ages 2, 3, 4, and every 6 months thereafter.

An optometrist at ages 1, 4, and every 2 years thereafter.

My daughter had her first gynecological visit at age 12 and every 2 years thereafter.

Hearing screens were held every 2 years at school.

Routine medical, dental, eye, hearing, and gynecological exams are conducted for a reason - preventive health care can often identify medical issues that would otherwise go untreated until they become major lifelong - and possibly fatal - medical conditions.

Those of you who are adults and choose not to schedule regular health appointments are old enough to make your own choices.  

I respectfully suggest that you DO NOT have any legitimate ethical or moral right to deny your kids their recommended health exams.

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## 1stimestar

Some of us do not think that way Ken.  Since you do not know me, my kids, or our history, I suggest you back off with the judging.

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## Ken

> Some of us do not think that way Ken. Since you do not know me, my kids, or our history, I suggest you back off with the judging.


I'm not judging anything. I'm stating a fact. 

Children are not old enough to make the decision on whether or not to have preventive health care exams. We are fortunate enough to live in a society where children have access to excellent and affordable or free medical care and examinations. We have a moral obligation to see that they receive it.

Unless we, as parents, have some super-human innate ability to ascertain the presence of an underlying or hidden medical condition, such as a failing kidney, scoliosis, a heart murmur, diabetes, glandular disorders, cavities or root decay below the gum line - and the list goes on and on - children should have the benefit of regular medical check-ups. We owe that to them.

We don't live in a third-world country.

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## welderguy

And even sometimes with routine Dr visits stuff is missed till it gets to a point it is life threatening, like with my sons celiac's diagnosis.

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## thefemalesurvivalist

> Yea, if im in the wild i really dont care what my teeth look like.. so worst case scenario they rot out and im ugly. no biggy. Medical care, i could learn basic first aid and if nature kills me, at least il die natural the way nature intended, and il have a nice view while i take my last breaths I dont even use the cell phone i have now, it doesnt interest me and i dont see how id have reception anyway. what i have left of family now isnt that important to me other than my dad and he loves the wild too and whenever i ramble on about my future he says hel have a cabin miles away too. Im not a very attached person anyways, i see the temporary-ness in everybody and am pretty emotionally prepared for loss, i mean im used to it. Im not fertile so children are out of the question and i already have pessimistic views about the future so i wouldnt bring life into this world even if i could. and by furnace i meant woodstove, but made out of steel. Ive seen them before although im unsure of their proper name. And yeah poultry seems like a good idea but arent there wolves and bears? Ive heard of powdered eggs and such , so that could work until i ever found means of maintaining animals. As for transportation, id use my feet and a compass. Vehicles need gas and an open road and horses need maintenance. And i understand the financial part being a giant empty factor i havent figured out yet. It will probably kill me but i guess im gonna have to get a job and save up until im sitting on enough money to afford the only thing i really want to do. I could.. grow weed? Sell furs? i dunno.


When you say, "no biggy" to medical and dental issues, especially if you die, all I can think is you've never been in real pain. Nature has a way of making a person Beg for help, it is indeed a biggy.

So, preventative care, and serious attitude towards this survival issue is paramount to Survival!

Camping and backpacking are both valuable ways to learn the skills you will need to pull off the dream you are talking about. And, some have found its way too hard to continue for any length of time.
I'm a long distance backpacker and have met many with the dreams of wilderness cabins who later find out it just hurts too much. There's a reason the human species built houses and made mattresses and pillows, etc.



Well...Phooey...went through all the trouble to make a case for camping only to find out she's history. Next time I'll read the whole thread  :Frown: 

I was off on an adventure, drove to Seward to check out the scenery!

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## ClayPick

Far be it from me to condemn anyone that wishes to raise children in a remote environment. A large part of the problem is doctors who refuse to work in rural areas little lone remote areas where the population is large enough to warrant one.

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## BENESSE

> Far be it from me to condemn anyone that wishes to raise children in a remote environment. *A large part of the problem is doctors who refuse to work in rural areas little lone remote areas where the population is large enough to warrant one*.


You're right about that, but unfortunately when you're starting your career in debt up to your eyeballs, you gotta work where you can make some money to pay it back. It's a seriously expensive education few can afford to pay for outright. When you eventually get through with it, 10+ years later, you've got to start making some dough and fast. A Dr. friend in his late 30s is still paying off his debt and working 16 hr days at the hospital. He'd love to pack it in and go work in a remote community out west but can't afford it.

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## RangerXanatos

Morals and ethics differ from person to person.  What suits you may not suit us.  How does one feel about abortion?

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## ClayPick

> You're right about that, but unfortunately when you're starting your career in debt up to your eyeballs, you gotta work where you can make some money to pay it back. It's a seriously expensive education few can afford to pay for outright. When you eventually get through with it, 10+ years later, you've got to start making some dough and fast. A Dr. friend in his late 30s is still paying off his debt and working 16 hr days at the hospital. He'd love to pack it in and go work in a remote community out west but can't afford it.


How true, add a socialized medical system to it and it only gets worse. My daughter is a nurse in Texas, she went for the money.

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## BENESSE

> How true, add a socialized medical system to it and it only gets worse. My daughter is a nurse in Texas, she went for the money.


Here's the thing. Once my friend pays off _his_ tuition debt, it'll be time to start saving for college for his two kids. His wife is a stay at home mom and they don't live in luxury, not here, where a 2 bedroom apt. costs more than a 4000 foot McMansion in GA.
You do what you gotta do, and unfortunately, money always figures in, one way or another.

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## Wildthang

Well I think young people get their priorities out of order, and although they think they know what is important, some times they just don't. I think this is the case with Nessa. So is this the way we will always deal with young people new to the forum? Pick them apart until they fight back and get banned?
I don't like trolls either but in this case, I think we are mistaken, just my opinion!!

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## BENESSE

> Well I think young people get their priorities out of order, and although they think they know what is important, some times they just don't. I think this is the case with Nessa. *So is this the way we will always deal with young people new to the forum? Pick them apart until they fight back and get banned?*
> I don't like trolls either but in this case, I think we are mistaken, just my opinion!!


Fighting back is fine. Using foul language (by _anyone_, new or old) is not. Nessa was using foul language and that's why she got banned, I think.

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## crashdive123

Personally, I don't think that Nessa got a fair shot.  When she chose to take a picture of herself holding a vulgar sign and making it her avatar she was banned.

I suspect that she was who she said she was.  If she wasn't, what did it matter?  Over time things like that are exposed.  It's not like she was hurting or offering bad advice.

I realize that playing with numptys is good sport, but until they cross the line it might be a good idea to share your concerns with a mod.  We do try and keep an eye on things to prevent trolls.....unless of course there is good fun being had by all.  I don't think that was the case with Nessa.

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## Rick

And despite our advanced years we are often PM'ing each other to be wary of XXXX or take a strong look at XXXX. They aren't where their IP is or something along those lines. Just so all three of us are on the same page if one or two of us happen to be offline when something happens. 

I was pretty comfortable Nessa was who she said she was. Everything I checked matched up. I think we might have been a bit quick on the trigger to label her but once she put up the new avatar the ending was assured.

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## Ken

Honestly, the way in which I view a new member is largely based on his/her attitude. When I read things like, "I don't want a job," or "I want to live somewhere for free," or "let the government support me," or "I don't care about my teeth/health," it really sets the tone of my replies.

And you guys HAVE to give me credit for my muted reply to the pic she posted holding a vulgar sign *with my name on it*, LOL!  Normally, I would have..... never mind.

On second thought, keep the credit.  Send me money instead.   :Innocent:

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## hunter63

I thought the whole thing was handled badly....you can only poke so may times to have resulting "fight back"....then let the ax come down.....not so cool. 
IMHO

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## Wildthang

So where are we now? Have we learned anything from this incedent?
It is my opinion, that as a forum of elder woodsmen, it would be a priority to mentor young members and make it our legacy to help young people learn the bushcraft way. I feel that is something we can do to assure that our young members look back and remember this forum as a doorway to a wonderful hobby and a way of life.
Young people are not raised like we were, they are trying to grow up in a crazy confusing world where even their own governement is more or less disfunctional, and a lot of their parents probably isn't far from that either. Almost nothing is the same as when we grew up, and I actually feel sorry for the younger generation knowing what they may be facing in the future, it probably isn't pretty and deep down it has to worry them to some degree.
At 16 years old, a young person these days has to be a lot more confused than we were at that age, and life priorities are even harder to come by. Young people these days have not been taught the respect that we were taught as a child in most cases. So how can we reasonably expect them to endure the lambasting most of them receive when they join this forum?
When somebody posts something on here that we deem unapropriate, we always here, " there are kids on this forum "..............hogwash! If I was a young person I would not want to have anything to do with this place because after a little lurking, I would think, why would I want to join a forum where a bunch of arrogant know it all old farts are going to rip me apart because I am young, and there is a lot I don't know.
If I would have been Nessa, I would have never made it as far as she did before I would have posted a picture of my A$$ and a sign that said " Adios you arrogant old farts"! I honestly feel that any member, especially young ones should be given 3 chances ( PM warnings ) unless they blatently exhibit personal attacks, or post porno pictures, or something that is clearly in conflict with our forum rules before they are banned. This will let them know where they stand and is the only right way to handle these issues. This is the moderators job!
We must remember that todays young people will only respond to gentle guidance and suggestions and will not tollerate harsh comments and lambasting, it just doesn't work! Todays kids are not as tough as we were and are trying to grow up in a totally different world than we did. We need to understand that and treat all of our new younger members with respect and understanding or they will leave, simple as that.
So do we want to be remembered as a bunch of wise old woodsmen that mentored young people in the ways of bushcraft, or cranky old arrogant farts that does not have the patience or the time to help young members share our love for nature and the wilderness.
There are individuals on here that need to ponder that question! If your 16 year old joined this forum, how would you treat them?

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## BENESSE

I'll go out on a limb. 
Obviously, it's only my personal POV, not saying it's right or the _only_ way to interact with young people. I believe they ought to be treated respectfully and _realistically._..not talked down to, but not coddled, either. They already get that on the "outside", as we said many times before.
If one can't take straight talk from a virtual community, they certainly won't be able to take it in the real one. We've had many "grown ups" leave in a huff because their feelings got bruised and they probably started as over induldged kids. 
A big part of survival also includes being able to interact with people...neighbors, friends, co workers, strangers, people you want something from. If you can't, you're gonna have a lot of challenges in life.

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## Wildthang

> I'll go out on a limb. 
> Obviously, it's only my personal POV, not saying it's right or the _only_ way to interact with young people. I believe they ought to be treated respectfully and _realistically._..not talked down to, but not coddled, either. They already get that on the "outside", as we said many times before.
> If one can't take straight talk from a virtual community, they certainly won't be able to take it in the real one. We've had many "grown ups" leave in a huff because their feelings got bruised and they probably started as over induldged kids. 
> A big part of survival also includes being able to interact with people...neighbors, friends, co workers, strangers, people you want something from. If you can't, you're gonna have a lot of challenges in life.


I absolutely agree Nessie, but there is a lot of talking down and lambasting on here, so where is the majic line? I think they can all handle honest opinions tastefully stated, but when the brow beating starts, they quit listeneng and go on the offensive. At that point we have lost their respect and desire to be a part of this forum. We talk down to a lot of people on here and most don't even realize how it comes off. A lot of us need to think and act as though we are communicating with a friend before posting borderline rude comments to people we don't really know, don't you agree?

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## BENESSE

> I absolutely agree Nessie, but there is a lot of talking down and lambasting on here, so where is the majic line? I think they can all handle honest opinions tastefully stated, but when the brow beating starts, they quit listeneng and go on the offensive. At that point we have lost their respect and desire to be a part of this forum. We talk down to a lot of people on here and most don't even realize how it comes off. A lot of us need to think and act as though we are communicating with a friend before posting borderline rude comments to people we don't really know, don't you agree?


This forum is no different than a society at large with one exception...we share a few interests that keep us coming back. For those who stay, those interests trump all other areas where we seriously disagree. You can learn from it, you can ignore it and you can move on. It's good training for any age. The sooner you learn that, the sooner you'll acquire the most important skill in in life--getting along with people--family, school, sports, job, neighbors...you name it. You've got to learn to take the good with the bad and raise above it. We've heard of people, probably come across a few who haven't mastered this essential skill. They are usually described as... loner, didn't play well with others, kept to himself, didn't have friends, couldn't hold a job, quick to take offense at imagined slights, etc, etc. 
Being respectful and decent is just good manners. People either have them, or they don't. Here's no different than anywhere else.

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## Ken

I'll go out on a limb, too.

No two people think alike in all circumstances. However, regardless of the countless thought processes out there, human beings fall into two distinct categories; those who HAVE A CLUE and those who ARE CLUELESS. In most cases, with few exceptions, an individual will never in the course of their life shift from one category to the other. And it's fairly easy to tell the direction a person is heading in by the time they're 16.

I've come to believe that there are critical factors that distinguish those who HAVE A CLUE from the CLUELESS: 

1. Common Sense or lack thereof
2. Understanding Consequences of actions
3. Taking Personal Responsibility

There are wrongs in society involving the clueless that many of us here have voiced some strong opinions about, including those who prey on others through acts of violence, leeches who take from society and never contribute a damned thing in return, sociopaths, and those who act without concern for the consequences to themselves or others. In most cases, not all, but most, it's generational. I've been around long enough to have represented three generations of many clueless families. You always see the same clueless defendant family members in court - decade after decade.

Clueless people generally have a bad attitude. They always a smart azz answer when someone tries to point them in the right direction. Why? Because they're out to beat the system in one way or another, and regardless of how clueless they are, they believe that they're smarter than everyone else - those of us who work, and contribute, and try to do the right thing. Yep, they're smarter than all of us and they're going to show us that they are. 

AM I JADED? YES. Why? Because I've spent 30 years dealing with the people that you all read about in the papers and see on television everyday. You know, the ones you want to lock away for life. I often meet these people for the first time when they're in they're between the ages of 17 and 22. I can generally distinguish those who are one time offenders from those who will be back time after time after time. The ones who lack common sense.  The ones who only care about themselves.  The ones who will never appreciate the consequences of their actions or accept personal responsibility for them. 

I wish that many of you could tag along with me for a week or so. 

I was in court yesterday representing a man who the police claim was drunk - over 3x the legal limit - when he got in his car and drove 80 mph down a state highway and crashed into three cars, including one with a family of 4 inside. Amazingly, no one was killed, but the injuries were serious. He's still drinking.

I'll be in Superior Court this afternoon on a homicide case. My client is charged with killing his live-in girlfriend. He can't understand why he's facing a prison sentence. 

On Monday, I'll be in court with a 20-year-old kid who I've represented in a number of cases for over three years. The charges were more and more serious each time, and always involved violence. I always managed to keep him out of jail and prison, and last summer, after I saved his azz again, I sat him down and urged him to change his life. His reply was arrogant and about as disrespectful as any I've ever heard. I ended that conversation last summer by telling him that I had no doubt that he would eventually spend most of his life in prison. His last arrest came early this year. He's charged with armed robbery and a whole host of other crimes. But it gets worse. This time, gunfire was exchanged and a bystander was shot, and the police allege that my client was the shooter. It was all recorded on video. The penalty for that offense is "any term of years up to life."

I spent decades trying to soft-touch and guide clueless people, getting professional counseling for them, getting them into programs, trying to get them to act responsibly and to see the light, with very limited success. The reason the system - counseling, rehabilitation, probation, prison - rarely works is that the know-it-all clueless have no inclination to change. 

I've come to the point where I have little tolerance for smart azz clueless know-it-alls, and I'm pretty blunt about it these days, because blunt is all they understand. Have you ever heard the expression, "it's like talking to a wall?" If I offend them, so be it. Even the clueless can be offended. 

These days, all I do is represent them and keep them out of jail and prison.  It's not much different from an emergency room doctor who saves the life of a guy who was shot after he killed someone while robbing a convenience store.

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## Wildthang

Well I have known and worked with a lot of clueless people in my life, and have observed that there are different types of clueless people, good clueless people and bad clueless people. I have a couple of friends that are fairly clueless but they are good people and have hearts of gold.
So how do we know who is which kind since we only know them through a forum? Do we treat them like a leper just because they are clueless and drive them away? Do we just assume they are a bad clueless person?
I feel we should give them the benefit of the doubt until they make it very clear that they are socially unfit to be a member of this forum, then it's game on for all I care, but I do not think Nessa was a bad person, and at 16, still has some growing up to do!
Einstein was clueless in many ways, but still one of the greatest minds we have ever known!

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