# Survival > Bushcraft Medicine >  Insulin and Anti-biotics.....are there any bushcraft formulas for these?

## OhioGrizzLapp

I am very interested in finding out if there are any backwoods methods to make and store diabetic insulins and internally taken anti-biotics? Please direct me to any books, articles or formulary procedures for these. If it is NOT possible for backwoods making of these.... what should a person with insulin dependent diabetes and prone to infections do in an extended survival situation?

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## Trabitha

Well...honey is a natural antibiotic that can be consumed and used as a topical.
Other HERBS are goldenseal, garlic, Echinacea and I think my grandmother said something about kelp, but I don't think that does most of us much good.
If you're looking for heavy duty antibiotics...I don't know that it's something that can be safely done. 
One cool thing about goldenseal is that it's a natural source of insulin...but I've never learned how to determine the AMOUNT that each plant produces...
My mother started growing it in her garden years ago when my father was diagnosed with diabetes, but she has never had to use it for that purpose.  
I'll have to ask her about it now that you've brought it up...as the more I look into it...the more I want it in MY herb garden.   :Wink:

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Speaking of Honey, you may be interested in reading about this. It is called MediHoney. It is a 2x2" patch of medical honey. My Dr gave me 4 boxes of 10 each in case my feet infect while I am backwoodsman'ing it. 

I was however more interested in internal dosed insulin by either injection or tab/capsul and internal anti-biotics like to treating septic or staff infections. The more powerful stuff like amoxicillian etc.... 

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## Rick

We've had a couple of threads on this subject but it's always worth reviewing. There is just no reason to play around with something as important as insulin. Your doc obviously understands that you spend time in the back woods so it should not be a problem for him to set you up with something for longer term. I did the same with my doc and he provided a prescription of Cipro for infections and Vicodin for pain management. 

While there may well be natural alternatives to the prescriptions you are now using they may or may not be suitable for your use and finding out they don't work in an already difficult situation would not be a good thing in my book. Just changing a drug that your body is accustomed to could cause you problems. 

Here is some information that Adventure Doc posted in an earlier thread. You can find it in posts 9 and 13 at 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...7077#post17077

For the sake of brevity, I've copied only parts of it. You can view the entire discussion by clicking on the link above. 

"...The use of antibiotics in a survival scenario is an important  consideration. The length of time one must survive alone or in a remote  environment, without definitive medical care, is key. Antibiotics would  become a factor if one has an infection or an exposure that warrants  antibiotics (animal bite, dirty wound, parasite, etc.).

I think carrying antibiotics in a survival kit is a prudent idea. Good broad spectrum antibiotics such as a quinolone (Cipro)  for GI problems or something for skin wounds (clindamycin, cephalexin,  etc) is a wise idea. I'd more consider it as a first aid kit item versus  a survival kit item. I'd be more inclined to go with pain killers than  antibiotics.

Cipro is ciprofloxacin, a flouroquinolone  medication, available in the US only by prescription. I'd ask my family  doc for a script of a few days course, tell him/her it was for a  back-country survival kit and they should totally understand. I  frequently write scripts for these types of meds for people to place in  their travel health kits, for vacations.

I think neosporin is a fantastic cream and a lifesaver. There are a few  other creams that I have in a larger health kit, including an OTC  cortisone cream for itch/reactions/rashes and a OTC anti-fungal.

As for pain killers, I generally advise a combo of aspirin, motrin and  something a bit "heftier". Aspirin has a double benefit of working well  in chest pain scenarios, as a medicine for acute heart attack. Motrin is  a great pain reliever (analgesic) and a fantastic anti-inflammatory  agent. It is one of my mainstays. A low-grade narcotic is another  consideration, for injuries such as broken legs, limbs, etc. A few (4)  Vicodin (tylenol and codine) are also in my kit. Just enough to take the  edge off, for about 12-24 hours. It makes waiting for help a little  easier.

Of course, I feel that if anybody carries a medicine, they need to know  when to use it and when not to. For example, don't give aspirin to  children for fear of Reye's syndrome. I guess it all comes back to being  as familiar and proficient with your gear as you possibly can be. It  doesn't matter what the item is: antibiotic, compass, shelter, fire  starting eqpt, when you need to use one of these items, it is not the  right time to learn how to use it.

As for allergy problems, antihistamines are the ticket. Providing there  is not a life threatening allergic reaction (anaphylaxis)..."

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## Trabitha

Honey in and of it's self is medicinal.  It may be cheaper for you if things change...to simply put honey ON your foot and cover it with a bandage.  It will work just as well.  :Wink: 

Goldenseal will treat staff...and as for injectable or pill form you will need to learn how to do these procedures.  Not many herbs can be eaten off the plant and do their job.  Most have to be processed in different ways to make them more potent.  Some can be dried and put into capsules, boiled into a tea, smooshed into a salve...but it depends on what part of the herb you are after...and that is an art in and of it's self. 

I would look and see if your area has a local herb shop. I know we have some out here, and they give classes on the proper way to process herbs.  It's not as easy as a quick post.  Unfortunately it's very detailed and requires a certain amount of "chemistry".  :Wink:

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Rick, that was a great answer, exactly what I was looking for as for info and direction. I take lantis, long acting insulin 14 units each night. It needs to stay refrigerated for the most part, never frozen and below 92degrees direct or indirect heat. I use the X300 fine needle in a pen injector. They are portable, but environmentally, not easy to keep on camping/hiking trips in all 4 seasons. 

I was looking for a SHTF way of making what I need at the cabin (most likely place I would be staying in a SHTF scene). 

I have Cipro, expire dates seem to be very short lived. Dr does keep an open script for me, just a hassle to keep it roatated out. I keep a base medical kit at the cabin with the more powerful drugs I would use. Instead of Vics, I use T3's, I am a lightweight when it comes to narcotics. I use the neosporin packets, good stuff, actually saved me one time.

I teach my Dr woodscraft and some survival tactics and he keeps me in meds like the medihoney patches, pain killers and the Cipro...... did not pay a dime for them. He told me NOT to use any processed honey and to use RAW honey ONLY and bandages if needed it when out of the medihoney patches. I keep benedril for anti-histimine treatments.

He also gave me a real nice backwoods Tea Tree oil/amonia soap for taking care of rashes and such on the skin surface and hair/scalp issues, the concentrait is high enough to be script only. 

I was just wondering if it was possible for a SHTF manufacture of insulin/anti-biotics......talking years after the balloon goes up, not days and months. 

Although, the thing that will kill me for sure is not having availability of dialysis. I go 3 times a week for 4 hour sessions, still waiting for a transplant... teams say about 2 1/2 more years. I have often thought of grabbing a used machine and some 5 time use dialyzers by the case full as I would have no way to wash them. I could just keep the machine up at the cabin and keep the acid, and other maintenance fluids on hand, easy enough to get or go to PD and keep those supplies on hand. Would need a good supply of fistula needles. 

I have more things wrong with me then a Jamaican Bobsledder.... most of it caused by wounds I rec in 1991in D-Storm and everything just escalated and steam rolled from there.

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## Rick

Have you talked to your doc about oral insulin? I know that's for Type 2 diabetes but ask your doc about Onglyza. Also, for SHTF is it possible to crush and inject the oral? You might also want/need to invest in a small portable electric cooler (12v or battery) to store your insulin. Just some thoughts.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Yes Rick, onglyza not good due to kidneys. He has a standing order for me of Glypazide and Gluchaphage. I have type II, known and treated for 7 years now.

I have a small solar + small wind system up at the cabin with a battery bank, 2000 watts only inverted to 110v. My GF's hair dryer is 2400 watt, I told her she cannot bring it along, she said "Just shoot me," LOLOLOL

Like I said, was just wondering if the SHTF making my own was possible for either of the drugs or do I just eat a bullet at day 240 (about how long current supply will last after dooms day) and call it a day ;-(

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Trabitha, I will certainly look into the herb shops around here, I know we have a few.

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## nell67

Here is something to talk to your doc about,OGL,certainly don;t want to jump into it without seeking his advice,but I do know it works in some people and not others,depending on the type of diabetes you have,and the other meds you currently take.

http://diabetes.webmd.com/cinnamon-a...s-for-diabetes

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## beetlejuicex3

I don't think there is a way to make "bushcraft" insulin and even if there were I wouldn't inject it under your skin.  I might suspect that in a catabolic, calorie and carb restricted situation many type II diabetics could do alright on an insulin sensitizer like glucophage for a period.  Some type IIs experience DKA at some point in their disease and if that is you then you not having insulin around is dangerous.  

Garlic and onions lower blood sugar levels.

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## MountanWolf

Well I'm diabetic, type 1. When I go camping in summer I usually dig a hole, make a wooden donstruction and store insulin in waterproof plastic bag. I recently bought  Insulin Cooling Wallet that I haven't tested yet. In winter it's not so big issue, just keep insulin from freezing and it'll be ok. 

When i found out i got diabetes type 1 last year i tougth my scouting/bushcraft and climbing career ended but i managed to get in shape of my life and it gave me more will power to prove that person with diabetes can do all of those things and more. I'm on insulin pump from august and i must say it's way better than making shots 5 or 6 times per day.

So those are my experiences i hope i helped!

Reguards 
Kristjan

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I do the spoon of raw cinnamon a day already and it truly does help. I eat enough garlic in almost everything to ward off most things to include weregerbils (very intimidating creature at the very least). My type II and kidney failure are a result of mechanical injuries to my pancreas and kidneys when I was wounded in D-Storm. The second I started to take insulin I puffed up like the Michelin tire man and have stayed that way since. 

The prob is not being able to keep the insulin cool, it is running OUT in a long term SHTF scenario. If I cannot make it and nobody else is making it that I can barter for, then my survival mortality is set in stone. That mortality is about 280 to 365 days. 

I have read some things about making amilin from lambs but there is NO detailed procedures to do so. I have actually wrote the American Diabetes association and have received a few letters for contacts to drug companies. None of those companies have responded to my letters.

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## Rick

I doubt you will encounter such a calamity and if, by chance, it does happen then a very goodly number of us will be in the same boat. Namely, dead. I have no misgivings that any TEOTWAWKI event will see me making it through. If I do (shrug) then I guess I'm money ahead. If I don't then I've wasted some money on supplies. If I do happen to make it through I have dibs on Lindsay Lohan. That girl needs to be straightened out and I think I can get the job done.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Rick :SMH, there are two things in this world I am scared of.... rattle snakes and blondes with the right to vote, you can have Lindsy, I am shooting for Lucy Lawless.....if nothing else, just hearing that Xena yodel once in awhile will keep me alive and well  :Smile: .... plus I am sure with her jungle knowedge, she can make insulin and smelt the steel for the needles.....It is a sick world and I am a happy guy  :Smile:

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## copybiz

I would confirm it from the shops near my house and notify you.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

I seem to recall that Sundews have some antibiotic properties/qualities.... However I am going from something I read long ago....

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## grrlscout

Here in the desert, creosote bush makes a fairly effective topical antibiotic, and prickly pear cactus has been used in traditional medicine to regulate blood sugar.

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## Sigma3survival

Sweet gum trees have natural antibiotic properties and the leaves can be chewed!

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Sigma, I was more interested in hardcore IV/Pill form/Injectable anti biotics made in the bush, the stuff that would kill staff and septic conditions or counter a bio/chem attack.... something on the level of Cipro etc... but field expedient. I am pretty well versed in topical and light oral AB's, jusat not the hard core stuff.  

Nice to meet you by the way... head on over to the intro section and tell us about yourself.......good screen name by the way.

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## canid

Never, Never, Never inject any substance which has not been prepared commercially for that intended purpose, or prepared to the same standard, and never do so unless directed by a licensed physician or a person with a comparable level of education in iv drug administration, pharmacology, physiology and pathology.

drugs to be administered by iv or im injection should be completely aseptic (read: not clean, not sanitized; completely azenic/aseptic). under primitive conditions this would probably entail either heat sterilization (when possible, many compounds will decompose into inert or dangerous compounds under heat, intense uv exposure, etc) or antiseptic chemical treatment which is know in the specific case not to be reactive with the compound in question, not to be toxic, or to have been removed afterwards by chemical means. It should be free of potentially dangerous particulate matter such as organic solids and it should be of known purity and molar concentration and precise measurement. this would entail complicated assay proceedures, probably centrifugal separation or plant/fungal extracts, purification/separation of specific compounds from a solution/mixture, and in many cases (such as mycoantibiotics, use of these as precursors to the synthesis of the actual compound to be produces).

I am not a physician, nor even a properly trained chemist. This is not medical advice, but an informed opinion that the extraction, purification and synthesis of pharmocologic compounds requires a trained chemist, a properly equipped laboratory and stringent procedural standards to ensure safety. the safe use thereof depends on the supervision, education, experience and training of a person you are trusting your life and wellbeing to.

in any but the direst of immediate disaster, the field production of drugs without the benefit of a competent lab staff, proper equipment and procedures would be part way to suicidal, and in said emergency, it's going to require more education than some might think.

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## whitis

Some, but not all, studies show that flax seed or other sources of omega-3 oils can reduce blood glucose levels after a meal by about a quarter (reduced insulin resistance).  Lignins in flax may also help.    Hemp, Psyllium, Chia, walnuts, and fish (some higher in omega 3 than others) are other sources of Omega 3 though generally not as much.     Deficiency of vitamin D is correlated with a fairly substantial increase in the risk of contracting type 2 diabetes but the effect on those who already have diabetes is less clear.  5000IU/day or adequate sunlight.  Some may need 10,000IU/day.  Preload with several doses of 50,000IU (at 5000IU, it takes several months to replenish the bodies fat stores of Vitamin D). http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about...ndoor-tanning/
 A wilderness diet would be likely to be substantially different from the white trash diet (white flour, white rice, refined sugar, other refined carbs, refined oils, trans-fats, etc.) which tends to be responsible for the high rates of diabetes.   Fruit sugar consumption in non-tropical areas would probably be lower.   In addition, reduced food (especially junk food) intakes and increased activity may reduce obesity.  Note that some survival "food" may be white trash (ration bars, macaroni, crackers, ramen noodles, etc). While it is easier to prevent diabetes than treat it with dietary means alone, some diabetics may be able to survive.   But I would try to stockpile as much insulin as possible.

There are some indications that reasonable levels of Vitamin D may increase innate immunity including to influenza, MRSA/staph, and sepsis.  This may increase your chances of survival when antibiotics are not available However, unlike the UVB radiation in sunlight which produces vitamin D, UVA radiation may reduce inate immunity and increase susceptibility to MRSA:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/healt...immunity/mrsa/
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-...an-antibiotic/

50,000IU supplements every 10 days would be more portable than 5,000IU/day.   At least one study experimented with single doses of 600,000IU (two to four months worth) when daily doses weren't practical, which suggests you could carry avoid packing for limited duration bugouts by carrying it in your fat cells.    Recommended dose is proportional to body weight.    Current recommendations are to test blood levels when taking real doses of Vitamin D (to prevent overdose or underdose) but no one taking up to 10,000IU/day had problematic blood levels and 10,000IU-20,000IU per day is the normal body production with adequate sunlight (as opposed to the ridiculously low RDA of 600IU/day which is barely enough to prevent Rickets).
In a survival situation, I would probably take 10,000IU/day especially when there was inadequate sun exposure or where there were physical injuries or exposure to trauma cases or crowded shelters where MRSA might be an issue.   Ok, I might actually take 20,000IU/day (plus front load) in extreme conditions but I have had my blood levels measured.

Disease incidence prevention chart for Vitamin D:
http://www.grassrootshealth.net/medi...art_032310.pdf
There is also a 72% reduction in falls with adequate vitamin D which could be an advantage in survival situations.

A small amount of Vitamin A may be helpful with vitamin D but Vitamin A can also counteract effects of vitamin D.    Calcium, magnesium, Vitamin K, Zinc, and Boron are cofactors.   A multivitamin could provide those.

Long term supplies of vitamin D may not be available if the SHTF but one can stockpile a reasonable amount without a doctors prescription and sunlight can be an alternate source (though you will need a fair amount in the summer to see you through the winter).   

As a last resort, some veterinary meds can be used:
http://www.endtimesreport.com/vetmed.html

Stumbled on this ebook: Where there is no doctor:
http://www.hesperian.org/10411911.php
Print copies on amazon.   Also where there is no dentist and some other books.

I am not a doctor.

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## SARKY

Here is a heads up for all of you. I found a US Air Force study done on meds. It seems that the USAF was coming up on the expiration date of a large quantity of their meds and it would have cost them millions to replace them. The study found that almost all dry (powdered not liquid) meds. were still potent 9 years after the manufacturers expiration date provided they weren't exposed to extreme temps. Some of them lost a portion of their potency but all were still viable.

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## whitis

Testing was done by FDA for DOD:  FDA shelf life extension program.
https://slep.dmsbfda.army.mil/slep/s...r_JAN_2006.doc
They are very secretive about the specific drugs tested and the results but some info leaks out in this document.




> It is important to note that products tested under this program are maintained under tightly managed, controlled conditions at a limited number of locations.  Extrapolation of these data to drugs stored by others would be inappropriate.  Storage conditions may vary widely across the population and SLEP data are not generalizable unless storage conditions are identical and verifiable.  Even within the SLEP, products known to have been stored under adverse conditions (i.e., high temperature or low temperatures) by SLEP Participates are excluded from the program, unless they are marked and tested separately from normal stocks.


Individual prescriptions, i.e. those which have been stored by individuals or opened are not considered.    Many drugs are disqualified from testing because they are likely to fail and the number of drugs being tested has reduced to 13.    And these extensions are based on testing actual samples from each of the drug lots and do not apply to other lots of the same drug stored in a different warehouse.   SLEP does not apply to small lot sizes in local pharmacies; in addition, drugs there may be repackaged from open bottles or dispensing machines and exposed to air and thus is no longer in the unopened shelf life phase.   Also, the program primarily applies to exotic drugs (such as antidotes for biological warfare agents) that do not have value in the commercial market and cannot be returned for credit (what happens to those commercially marketable drugs when they are returned?).

Problem drugs:
   - Any liquid
   - Any biologic (i.e. vaccines)
   - Epinephrine.    
   - Tetracycline - old tetracyline had toxic effects (has since been reformulated)
   - water purification tablets
   - mefloquine hydrochloride (anti-malarial)


Expiration dates are typically 2-3 years or 1 year or less after prescribed/repackaged/opened.   FDA issues warnings to consumers not to use expired drugs.

Stuff in your bug out bag or first aid kit in the car is particularly liable to degrade due to temperature extremes.

One concern is that the pill bottles the drugs are repackaged into can admit air/oxygen/humidity.   Air tight containers rarely are actually air tight - the seals breath with changes in air pressure and the plastic is permeable.    And consumers frequently store in humid rooms such as bathroom or kitchen.  Many do not have air conditioning.

On the other hand, if you have drugs in their original unopened containers (not pharmacy containers) sealed in a #10 can with an oxygen absorber and desicant and temperature controled storage, this data might give some hints as to its lifetime.

20% of drugs tested were not granted extension.  Some drugs didn't even make it to their expiration date.   In general, toxicity is not an issue:
http://www.endtimesreport.com/Prescr...longevity.html



> Only one report known to the medical community linked an old drug to human toxicity. A 1963 Journal of the American Medical Association article said degraded tetracycline caused kidney damage. Even this study, though, has been challenged by other scientists. Mr. Flaherty says the Shelf Life program encountered no toxicity with tetracycline and typically found batches effective for more than two years beyond their expiration dates.





> Additionally, non-SLEP organizations that use SLEP information are in violation of Federal law that governs misbranded pharmaceuticals. 
> http://www.usamma.army.mil/dod_slep.cfm


It appears that, under the particular storage conditions of the specific lots of drugs tested by SLEP, they passed if there was a 95% confidence that the drugs retained 90% of their effectiveness.   
http://www.dsls.usra.edu/grandrounds/20091027/khan.pdf

General USP storage temperatures for medicines which don't require refrigeration are are 25C +5/-10 (i.e. 15-30C).    Some sites say below 25C.   Refrigerated meds 2C to 8C.  Each 10 celsius degree increase in temperature would probably translate to halving the life of the product.  Reducing the temperature may increase life comparably, but there is little info about low temperature storage.    Some drugs can be damaged by temperatures at or below freezing.  Domestic fridges can inadvertently freeze contents.   
A UK study showed that in all doctors offices and pharmacies, drugs were stored at incorrect temperatures:
http://www.rsm.ac.uk/media/pr157.php
Temperatures in doctors bags in cars reached 49.5C/121F (could be worse in parts of the US); constant exposure to these temps could reduce the life of the drugs by about 83% vs 25C.   A small microwave oven sized 8 bottle wine cooler might be worth considering if you want to store a bunch of expensive meds for a long time.

Table of non-refrigerated storage durations for medications requiring refrigeration based on manufacturer data (free registration required):
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/562416_print
Example results (room temperature): typical vaccines 72hours, insulin 14-30 days (depending on specific variety), penicillin G 7 days at 77F or 1 day at 104F, Saquinavir soft gelatin capsules 90days.  Some explicitly stated durations were lifetime cummulative exposure.

Video: Top 5 Antibiotics for SHTF storage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOfthwm_v3E
Suggests using calvetsupply.com (no prescription required, labeled for fish use).   You can get for a lot less from shopmedvet.com but you would need a license on file (or perhaps a prescription).

Potassium Iodide tablets (to protect thyroid against ingested radioactive iodine) are good indefinitely when properly stored but they do become more difficult to dissolve and may need to be crushed:
http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/emerg-p...de/ki-faq.html

Aside: WHO list of essential medicines (long):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO_Mod...tial_Medicines

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## rednakel

I know that the Paenibacillus bacteria I have been doing research on can be killed by birch bark. I grew some in a petri dish and put a tiny chunk of birch on top. By the next day all the bacteria under the birch bark was dead.

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## Rick

You probably squished 'em.

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## rednakel

Yeah, you"re right. I probably did. Thanks for helping out with 6 months of research work.

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## Rick

I'm nothin' if not helpful.

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## techiedude

Jerusalem Artichoke or Sunchoke is a plant that produces inulin  a form of insulin and grows like a weed where ever you plant it. Also for antibiotics you can use animal antibiotics which is the same as people antibiotics and you do not need a prescription. Fishillian is one off the top of my head but they sell all just in case allergic to penn. Most antibiotics will last much longer then the exporation dates so dont get rid of them just because of that.

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## Farmer_General

Here is a link with 10 herbs used for controlling blood sugar.  

http://www.rd.com/health/wellness/th...-for-diabetes/

As far as antibiotics go, isn't green bread mold the fungus used to extract penicillin?

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## jfeatherjohn

The antibiotics that I carry are all fish meds. They come in packettes that sre factory sealed.
When I was doing my research, The Aquaium Guys had the lowest prices that I could find and just about any antibiotic can be purchased in those packettes.
I like the powder form because is, for some reason, the med cannot be taken orally, it is an easy thing to set up an enema.
I carry Amoxicillin, tetracycline, cephalexin abd ciprofloxin.
I also carry wide range of OTCs, also in individual dose packs.
The really expensive thing are the Epi-pens, but I don't want to give meds without them. 
If you are going to carry meds, you gotta know about them.
I am an insulin-dependent diabetic. My planis to only take enough
Lantus to keep my blod sugar in the low 200's. This is not ideal, but will probably double the span of time that I would have insulin.
BTW, Lantus is the most forgiving insulin when it comes to storage conditions. It is the only insulin that actually does not require refrigeration.
I'm done...

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