# General > General Guns & Ammo >  AK-47 or M16/M4/AR15

## tacticalguy

Which do you prefer the AK-47's 7.62x39mm, or the M16's 5.56x45mm? Personally, i prefer the AK.

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## Sourdough

I am not clear on your question...????? AK-47 vs. AR-15/16 is a platform question. And 7.62X39 vs. 5.56NATO is a cartridge question. I choose the 6.8 SPC Cartridge in the AR-15 platform.

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## glockcop

I went with the AR

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## glockcop

I went with the AR because I like to hit what needs hitting over 100 yards. The only "loose" weapon I care for is a glock. They (GLOCKS) are for reasonably short range anyway. This "looseness" also helps reliability of course with the AK too. I'll just keep my AR clean. A rifle is what you use when you need to accurately hit something at a distance. An AK does not fit my description of an accurate rifle. If it's up close and personal I'll go with the Rem 870 and 000 buck, but the AR can handle that too. Besides IMO the AK feels like unbalanced, unrefined, outdated, stamped steel junk. The FAL was an update to the AK and it is  being phazed out in favor of more accurate designs by non 3rd world countries. Witness: Isreal, and Australia among others. Just my opinion. YMMV.

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## 2dumb2kwit

The pro's and con's of both were shown, in the link I posted a while back. LOL (Mosin humor)

 I kinda got into guns, because I couldn't decide if I wanted an AR-15 or an AK-47. I tried to educate myself, by doing a little reading, and ended up with a little mil-surp collection.

 I never did get an AR or an AK. I decided to compromise between the two, and bought a MINI-14! LOL

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## hunter63

I like the AR platform better for its versatility, ammo availability, ballistics, and appearance.
Most of the AK's I have seen, as well as the SKS's etc seem to be stamped out of a piece of steel, or chopped out with an ax.
Don't own an AK, but do have some SKS's, they shoot well, but I still prefer the AR.

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## rwc1969

I get pretty tight groups and virtually zero recoil from my Ruger Mini-30 which shoots the 7.62X39mm round. Ammo is dirt cheap too. I've never shot the other to compare.

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## glockcop

> I get pretty tight groups and virtually zero recoil from my Ruger Mini-30 which shoots the 7.62X39mm round. Ammo is dirt cheap too. I've never shot the other to compare.


I totally agree. The 7.62x39 is a surperbly accurate round. The AK is a dismally inaccurate weapon. I am close friends with a guy that has a Ruger MK11 (bolt action)  in 7.62x39 and it was killer accurate. He has taken quite a few whitetails and hogs with that rifle using Hornady SP ammo. He bought it for it's low recoil due to an arthritic shoulder and it has served him admirably. Off the sub but that is excatly why I use my 30-30 for mostly everything I hunt down south. I too have a bumb wing and can agree with his sentiment. Best.

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## Sourdough

The joy of the AR-15 platform is you can buy or build the "MOTHER" of all recievers, with a perfect, crisp trigger, your dream buttstock, dream grip, just have one perfect reciever (Lower). Then you can buy/sell/trade a hundred different uppers for the one lower. With every barrel length from 7" to 27" and a dozen different cartridges. Is that great or what....... :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

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## glockcop

Hope, I couldn't agree more! The AR is uber cool. All the possibilities my friend, all the possibilities.

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## Pal334

If stuck with only the two platforms,it is the M16/M4 . The AK is only good because there are so many of them. If you want to "spray and pray" go with the AK. I don't like the caliber choice, but better to have a quality weapon.

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## Rick

I don't have either one. Can't we have a poll on something I actually own? I like the BB in the BB Platform.

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## SARKY

I voted for the AK for a number of reasons, most of them being the round it is chambered for. 7.62x39 is more readily available, it hits harder than the .223 and as such is eminently more suitable for hunting big game.
As for platforms I prefer the AR but with the gas piston upgrade. I would also prefer it to be chambered in 6.5 Grendel

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## crashdive123

I like my AR platform and my Ruger mini 30.  I'll keep both.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> As for platforms I prefer the AR but with the gas piston upgrade. I would also prefer it to be chambered in 6.5 Grendel


 All right, dang it......That's cheatin!
I've got...I mean before that canoeing accident,I had a PSL(7.62x54R), but I didn't try to call it an AK. LOL  :Innocent:

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## Twosox5

I know very little about these types of rifles. I have been leaning toward owning an AR for some time. But I've been told that it isn't good for taking down larger game. I hear some of you say that it's good for somewhat longer distances too. I've been keeping track of the your mentioning of the cartriges, "lowers", "uppers" and barrel lengths but it is still a bit foreign to me. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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## Mountain Man

AR but if plinking for fun then AK is fun for that too.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

I'm assuming that you are asking in regards to their "Normal" configurations,and not worked over by a gunsmith? A Stock model? I think both have good and bad points. If it weren't for muzzle rise/recoil I would say the AK hands down. It can take many times the abuse that an ar15/m4/m16 can, needs less cleaning & maintenance,cost less to make,used in more places worldwide, fewer moving parts...etc.etc. I do believe that the m16 is more accurate w/ less recoil. I guess ultimately it would depend on what it was being used for.

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## tonester

i voted for the ar-15. although i dont own either but i have shot both. i really like the .223 round that the ar-15 fires, and from my experience was way more accurate than the ak. i also like all the different configurations for the ar-15.

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## Twosox5

> i voted for the ar-15. although i dont own either but i have shot both. i really like the .223 round that the ar-15 fires, and from my experience was way more accurate than the ak. i also like all the different configurations for the ar-15.


I'm not really sure yet...is there other rounds that can be fired from the AR, other than the .223?

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> I'm not really sure yet...is there other rounds that can be fired from the AR, other than the .223?


 Yep read SARKY's post and it can be fitted for .22 as well as .223

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## tonester

> I'm not really sure yet...is there other rounds that can be fired from the AR, other than the .223?


another common round that the ar-15  fires is the 556 which is almost identical to the 223. but ive seen them fitted to shoot 9mm and .45. im pretty sure my father uses one at work that is fitted for the .45.

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## Ken

The AK is much more forgiving in a survival scenario.  Drag it through sand and mud and it will still fire.  Does it have the accuracy of an AR?  - No.  But all considering, it's a safer bet IMHO.  I own two.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> another common round that the ar-15  fires is the 556 which is almost identical to the 223. but ive seen them fitted to shoot 9mm and .45. im pretty sure my father uses one at work that is fitted for the .45.


 Hey tone 5.56 is the metric version of .223 when I was in the army a Ranger friend always carried his own ammo while in the field..."Just in case" he just went to town and bought.223 but the military called it 556.

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## tonester

> Hey tone 5.56 is the metric version of .223 when I was in the army a Ranger friend always carried his own ammo while in the field..."Just in case" he just went to town and bought.223 but the military called it 556.


oh ok makes sense

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## glockcop

Please read carefully. The 5.56 and the .223 are NOT the same round. The military's 5.56 has higher pressure and should NOT be fired in a .223 weapon. There is also very minor external case dimension difference which I will not go into here that make the two totally different chamberings. They are close but different. You can shoot standard .223 in a 5.56 chambered weapon but the reverse SHOULD NOT be done. I did not say it can't be done....just should not be done. There is a way around the whole issue. You can buy a weapon with a .223 Wylde chamber or have your standard .223 chamber "retro cut" to .223 Wylde chamber dimensions. Long story short = 5.56 weapons can shoot both 5.56 and .223. .......223 weapons should only be fired with standard .223 ammo...... .223 Wylde chambered weapons are compatable with both 5.56 and standard .223 (a compromise of sorts in chamber demensions). If your AR says .223 on the side only fire standard      .223 ammo from it. It may have also come from the factory with a .223 Wylde chamber and still just say ".223" (which implies a standard .223 chamber). Call the factory to find out if it was cut with a .223 Wylde chamber before shooting 5.56. Best.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

THANKS for the clarification Glockcop!! I learn something new everyday. I guess that's a good reason to stick around huh?

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## glockcop

> THANKS for the clarification Glockcop!! I learn something new everyday. I guess that's a good reason to stick around huh?


I just did not want to see someone get hurt or ruin a nice weapon by "not knowing". Glad I could help out. Please do stick around, we get some really good info exchange going on here. You might just save my butt or gun with something I don't know one day. Stay safe out there brother.

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## tonester

> Please read carefully. The 5.56 and the .223 are NOT the same round. The military's 5.56 has higher pressure and should NOT be fired in a .223 weapon. There is also very minor external case dimension difference which I will not go into here that make the two totally different chamberings. They are close but different. You can shoot standard .223 in a 5.56 chambered weapon but the reverse SHOULD NOT be done. I did not say it can't be done....just should not be done. There is a way around the whole issue. You can buy a weapon with a .223 Wylde chamber or have your standard .223 chamber "retro cut" to .223 Wylde chamber dimensions. Long story short = 5.56 weapons can shoot both 5.56 and .223. .......223 weapons should only be fired with standard .223 ammo...... .223 Wylde chambered weapons are compatable with both 5.56 and standard .223 (a compromise of sorts in chamber demensions). If your AR says .223 on the side only fire standard      .223 ammo from it. It may have also come from the factory with a .223 Wylde chamber and still just say ".223" (which implies a standard .223 chamber). Call the factory to find out if it was cut with a .223 Wylde chamber before shooting 5.56. Best.


ok thats what i thought, i knew that the 556 was different than the 223 just didnt know how. thanks for the info glockcop!

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## pocomoonskyeyes

Sorry tonester for the bad info

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## Ken

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum. psst! Poco! Just blame it on 2dumb. Works for me. Just sayin'.  :Innocent:

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum. psst! Poco! Just blame it on 2dumb. Works for me. Just sayin'.


 I just wanted to quote this, before you edit or delete it. :Sneaky2:

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## glockcop

Poco, it's a real common mistake. We all learn new stuff all the time. Don't worry about it. Best.

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## Rick

Well, if I read it correctly, Poco was correct. His friend was using .223 in a 5.56 weapon. That's right isn't it?

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Well, if I read it correctly, Poco was correct. His friend was using .223 in a 5.56 weapon. That's right isn't it?


 I thinik you're right, Rick.
..and to make it even more confusing....Ruger marks the mini-14's as .223, but say that either is fine. (I don't know how they cut their chambers.)

 Their chambers may be cut to use either ammo, but it sure confuses people, who get told that it's OK to shoot 5.56 nato in a .223 chamber.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> Well, if I read it correctly, Poco was correct. His friend was using .223 in a 5.56 weapon. That's right isn't it?


Yeah he did it all the time. He absolutely could not stand to be issued a weapon and not have ammo for it. Since the M-16 is chambered for 5.56 NATO it would take the .223 as Glockcop pointed out. However what he is saying DO NOT use 5.56 NATO in a .223 Unless it is chambered as he says.

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## oldsoldier

There are Pro's and con's with both weapons. I chose the Ar for many reasons. First off The AR is american made. It's imho easier to clean/disassemble/reassembly/repair than the AK by and large it's a lighter weapon. The ammo is also lighter therefore you can carry more AR ammo for the same weight. But being smaller caliber/weight. The AR doesn't have quite the punch af the AK. I have found at least for me the AR is more accurate at ranges over 400 meters than the Ak. Like any weapon(s) you compare it's pretty much up to you what works best for you.  Here goes the arguement gang.  As an example lots of people Love the SIG or the Glock. Great for them as for me IMHO they are both overpriced junk. I'd much rather shoot my Tarus PT24/7 any day but that's just me.

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## crashdive123

> I'm not really sure yet...is there other rounds that can be fired from the AR, other than the .223?


Yes.  Many of the parts are easily interchangeable.  By changing the upper you can change the caliber.

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## glockcop

> Well, if I read it correctly, Poco was correct. His friend was using .223 in a 5.56 weapon. That's right isn't it?


Yes, that is right.

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## glockcop

> I thinik you're right, Rick.
> ..and to make it even more confusing....Ruger marks the mini-14's as .223, but say that either is fine. (I don't know how they cut their chambers.)
> 
>  Their chambers may be cut to use either ammo, but it sure confuses people, who get told that it's OK to shoot 5.56 nato in a .223 chamber.


The Ruger chambers are cut either .223 Wylde or for 5.56 if both .223 and 5.56 can be used as they advise. I suspect they are actually cut for 5.56 though.

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## glockcop

> Yeah he did it all the time. He absolutely could not stand to be issued a weapon and not have ammo for it. Since the M-16 is chambered for 5.56 NATO it would take the .223 as Glockcop pointed out. However what he is saying DO NOT use 5.56 NATO in a .223 Unless it is chambered as he says.


Poco, that is also correct.

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## glockcop

> There are Pro's and con's with both weapons. I chose the Ar for many reasons. First off The AR is american made. It's imho easier to clean/disassemble/reassembly/repair than the AK by and large it's a lighter weapon. The ammo is also lighter therefore you can carry more AR ammo for the same weight. But being smaller caliber/weight. The AR doesn't have quite the punch af the AK. I have found at least for me the AR is more accurate at ranges over 400 meters than the Ak. Like any weapon(s) you compare it's pretty much up to you what works best for you.  Here goes the arguement gang.  As an example lots of people Love the SIG or the Glock. Great for them as for me IMHO they are both overpriced junk. I'd much rather shoot my Tarus PT24/7 any day but that's just me.


Now you did it oldie :Smile: . You picked on the two best combat pistols the world has ever seen and now my feelings are hurt  :Smile:  Not to argue but I know that either Sig or Glock will shoot more accurately and last longer than any Taurus. I can also guarentee that the Taurus will choke and malfunction first. I owned two Taurus pistols that broke and needed a trip back to the factory. Hell, one of them broke before it was even fired. I never have nor do I know anyone who has had to fix a Glock or Sig. It just does not happen often. I don't know of any LE Departments within 400 miles of me that authorize that abomination. I have also seen a Taurus come apart in two pieces on the range. You just don't hear about too many Taurus torture tests. I know why. I'm sure they don't want that info out about their fine weapons :Tongue Smilie: .You get what you pay for. Trust me, if you really think that Sig and Glock are junk than you obviously need to up your medication :bat: . I hope yours holds up but don't worry, when that Toyrust breaks I'll loan you a real gun.

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## oldsoldier

> Now you did it oldie. Trust me, if you really think that Sig and Glock are junk than you obviously need to up your medication


 Glockcop If I were taking my meds I wouldn't be hanging around here in the asylum now would I ?? LOL

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## glockcop

> Glockcop If I were taking my meds I wouldn't be hanging around here in the asylum now would I ?? LOL


Me too. I'm fresh out :Smile:

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## hunter63

If something really "needs" to die, this is a kind of a upgrade to the .223.
"The Thumper"

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...equestid=99074

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## Pal334

> Now you did it oldie. You picked on the two best combat pistols the world has ever seen and now my feelings are hurt  Not to argue but I know that either Sig or Glock will shoot more accurately and last longer than any Taurus. I can also guarentee that the Taurus will choke and malfunction first. I owned two Taurus pistols that broke and needed a trip back to the factory. Hell, one of them broke before it was even fired. I never have nor do I know anyone who has had to fix a Glock or Sig. It just does not happen often. I don't know of any LE Departments within 400 miles of me that authorize that abomination. I have also seen a Taurus come apart in two pieces on the range. You just don't hear about too many Taurus torture tests. I know why. I'm sure they don't want that info out about their fine weapons.You get what you pay for. Trust me, if you really think that Sig and Glock are junk than you obviously need to up your medication. I hope yours holds up but don't worry, when that Toyrust breaks I'll loan you a real gun.


Just a little "poke in the eye".  :Online2long:  Never , ever, ever, did I say ever? Had even a hiccup with an issue 1911. Just saying  :Smile:

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## glockcop

> Just a little "poke in the eye".  Never , ever, ever, did I say ever? Had even a hiccup with an issue 1911. Just saying


No problems with a G.I 1911? Must not have shot it much! Or you are the miracle shooter of the centry. IMO, Sig and Glock have 1st and 2nd place as the two most reliable and dead nuts tuff combat pistols the world has ever seen. I guess I'll let you have a distant 3rd with the over hypped, low capacity, antiquated, and tired 1911 :Tongue Smilie: . Besides if the baby cries you can unload it and give it to him as a rattle. Got love that versitile 1911. Just saying. :Sneaky2:

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## Rick

Now don't hold back, Glockcop. Tell us how you really feel. Wonder why they don't call you 1911Cop? or TaurusCop?

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## SARKY

Time for my 2 cents again!
If I am in an urban enviroment the AK in 7.62x39 is probably a better weapon. The distances are short, the round has more energy than the .223/5.56 and will punch through a barricade better than the .223. 
If I am in open country and can pick my shots at distance i'll go with the AR-15 in .223
Best of both worlds......An AR-15 in 6.5Grendel
I do have a question, how do you shrink down a pdf file so it can be posted?

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## crashdive123

> I do have a question, how do you shrink down a pdf file so it can be posted?


Copy and paste pretty much exhausts my technical expertise in this area.

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## Pal334

> No problems with a G.I 1911? Must not have shot it much! Or you are the miracle shooter of the centry. IMO, Sig and Glock have 1st and 2nd place as the two most reliable and dead nuts tuff combat pistols the world has ever seen. I guess I'll let you have a distant 3rd with the over hypped, low capacity, antiquated, and tired 1911. Besides if the baby cries you can unload it and give it to him as a rattle. Got love that versitile 1911. Just saying.


I do admit that my experience with it, two wars, several minor events and daily carry as an LEO for 30 years does give me a limited frame of reference. But 100% reliability in jungle and desert and everything in between (in my experience) ain't shabby.  Besides, I like the rattling sound, it is quite soothing. I appreciate the offer of 3rd, but  I will stick with "number only" . I wish I was as antiquated and tired, I would be still kicking butt  :Smile: . As to capacity: naah, never mind  :Smile: . But as we have said before, to each his own. :Cool2:

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I do have a question, how do you shrink down a pdf file so it can be posted?


 Dunk it in cold water....no, wait....that's a .....nevermind. :Blushing:

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## glockcop

> I do admit that my experience with it, two wars, several minor events and daily carry as an LEO for 30 years does give me a limited frame of reference. But 100% reliability in jungle and desert and everything in between (in my experience) ain't shabby.  Besides, I like the rattling sound, it is quite soothing. I appreciate the offer of 3rd, but  I will stick with "number only" . I wish I was as antiquated and tired, I would be still kicking butt . As to capacity: naah, never mind . But as we have said before, to each his own.


I do not believe that a man of your experience would choose a 1911 when you can obviously upgrade to a Glock or Sig. Next your gonna tell us that you hunt with an atlatl. You deserve better than that replaced dischevelment excuse of a combat arm. I'll offer you the same little test of endurance between your G.I. 1911 and the superior designed Sig and Glock. I already know who the top two winners will be. Hint: they aren't single action. Might want to bring along some extra mags, spare extractors, barrel links, and sears just to attempt to keep up :Smash:  I'll just need to bring ammo. You probably won't need much.

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## Pal334

> I do not believe that a man of your experience would choose a 1911 when you can obviously upgrade to a Glock or Sig. Next your gonna tell us that you hunt with an atlatl. You deserve better than that replaced dischevelment excuse of a combat arm.


Naah,, I even used my own 1911 for my last (before retirement) deployment (shussh don't tell anyone). I don't need bells and whistles. It always worked and kept my old butt relatively unperforated.I never even heard of an atlatl before I came to this forum, besides it seems like too much work to me  :Smile: . Just sharing an opposing opinion.

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## crashdive123

Jeez Glockcop - not everybody is going to agree with you on firearms - so what.  Ya may want to give it a rest.

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## glockcop

> Naah,, I even used my own 1911 for my last (before retirement) deployment (shussh don't tell anyone). I don't need bells and whistles. It always worked and kept my old butt relatively unperforated.I never even heard of an atlatl before I came to this forum, besides it seems like too much work to me . Just sharing an opposing opinion.


Pal, Just having some fun with ya. Truth be known I like a good 1911 just fine but I really do like my Glocks and Sigs better. The 1911's help me keep up my gunsmithing and repair skills  :Smile: . Gosh, those Sigs and Glocks are boring. I just never need to take them apart for a damned thing :clap: .

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## glockcop

> Jeez Glockcop - not everybody is going to agree with you on firearms - so what.  Ya may want to give it a rest.


Crash, take a Mydol and lie down. I was just poking a little fun. I did not ask anyone to agree with me. I did state that it was "IMO". I am also poking fun at you now. CHILL. Maybe you did not see all my cute little smiley faces in my previous posts so here is one just for you :Smile: .

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## Ken

> Crash, take a Mydol and lie down. I was just poking a little fun. I did not ask anyone to agree with me. I did state that it was "IMO". I am also poking fun at you now. CHILL. Maybe you did not see all my cute little smily faces in my previous posts so here is one just for you.


Got your 6, Crash.  :Innocent:

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## Pal334

> Pal, Just having some fun with ya. Truth be known I like a good 1911 just fine but I really do like my Glocks and Sigs better. The 1911's help me keep up my gunsmithing and repair skills . Gosh, those Sigs and Glocks are boring. I just never need to take them apart for a damned thing.


No problems  :Smile: 
On a serious note, I have never had a repair on a 1911, only cleaning etc. Maybe I  just lead a charmed life. Also I never do any after market work on them,100% original, maybe that helps. Not ever going to be a tack driver, but get close enough to p**s me off and  I can wear a feller out  :Smile:

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## crashdive123

I got your Mydol right here.  Let me put a bigger smiley face on it so that makes it all OK.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I do not believe that a man of your experience would choose a 1911 when you can obviously upgrade to a Glock or Sig. Next your gonna tell us that you hunt with an atlatl. You deserve better than that replaced dischevelment excuse of a combat arm. I'll offer you the same little test of endurance between your G.I. 1911 and the superior designed Sig and Glock. I already know who the top two winners will be. Hint: they aren't single action. Might want to bring along some extra mags, spare extractors, barrel links, and sears just to attempt to keep up I'll just need to bring ammo. You probably won't need much.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7wL2QuFTLQ      Just sayin' :Innocent: 
(You can also watch parts 2, and 3.)

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## glockcop

I hear ya Pal. My toys bust my b@lls on the range from time to time through no fault of my own of course :Smile:  Those darn pistols just have a mind of their own sometimes. Thanks for the fun. I am glad you "get" my gritty sometimes abrasive humor. It's all in fun. Can you believe that one time i was accused of being an @ss cave :Smile: ? I know, I know...Hard to believe :Smile: .

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## glockcop

> I got your Mydol right here.  Let me put a bigger smiley face on it so that makes it all OK.
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


That what I'm talking about. I want one of those HUGE smiley faces so I don't get misunderstood sometimes. I just recently learned how to stick those little suckers in my posts. I am a slow learner.  I was really just poking fun. I thought my sarcastic humor was more evident. I did not intend to come across as condescending. Appologies to anyone offended. Now all I need to do is go to confession and my infractions with God will be forgiven. More sarcasm :Smile: . Best.

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## Rick

Hay Sarky, can you convert the .pdf to a .jpg? You could size it to anything you want then. I only have the reader, which gives you limited options. I don't have the $11 zillion full version so I don't know what you can save the document as.

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## crashdive123

No apologies needed.  Just think of me as one of the traffic cops around here.
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Nothing to see....keep moving.....

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## Rick

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## glockcop

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


That has got to be one P*SSED OFF Detective. Relagated to traffic work. Poor soul. Traffic work sucks real bad. I know one thing , he won't be writting the crash report. SH*T runs down hill thank God.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

I have to say this so please don't take offense Glockcop. When one of those newfangled play purties of yours is in service with the US Armed Forces for almost 80 years then we'll talk. The 1911's service record speaks for itself. I don't like it(the M1911) but that's just me, I still respect an outstanding record like that. :clap:  :Tongue Smilie:

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## Ken

> That has got to be one P*SSED OFF Detective. Relagated to traffic work. Poor soul. Traffic work sucks real bad. I know one thing , he won't be writting the crash report. SH*T runs down hill thank God.


That's not a detective.  That's Rick playin' in his back yard.

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## Ken

....45 years ago.

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## glockcop

> I have to say this so please don't take offense Glockcop. When one of those newfangled play purties of yours is in service with the US Armed Forces for almost 80 years then we'll talk. The 1911's service record speaks for itself. I don't like it(the M1911) but that's just me, I still respect an outstanding record like that.


No offence taken. I do like a 1911 alot. I just choose not to carry one. It is my experience that it is alot easier to get a reliable Sig or Glock. In fact I have never run across an unreliable Sig or Glock. You have a valid point about it's service record. Here comes the but.  It is not a pistol for the newly trained shooter. I spend ALOT of time training newbies and the Glock and Sig are easier platforms to safely learn. The problems I have seen with most 1911 stoppages is when the owner tries to "trick it out". Leave the thing alone why don't ya. I have NO problem with an experienced officer (only upper Rank and Detectives can carry one) bringing a good ole 1911 to my range when I am rangemaster but it better not hiccup because then it will be off his hip. Any given 1911 on my range better be as reliable as a Glock or it will not be allowed on street. I do not want a anyone carrying one until he can qualify with a perfect score 4 ,count that 4, times in a row; and he had better have perfect form. Sloppy is not safe. It is not a forgiving platform. I also don't see the Star Trek phazer being invented anytime soon so we will be seeing plenty Sigs and Glocks on the front line of Military and LE service for at least the next couple decades. Who knows they may break the venerable 1911's service record. Not taking away from the 1911 but that would not surprise me at all. That would truly be an Honor for my pets.

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## pocomoonskyeyes

> No offence taken. I do like a 1911 alot.......so we will be seeing plenty Sigs and Glocks on the front line of Military and LE service for at least the next couple decades. Who knows they may break the venerable 1911's service record. Not taking away from the 1911 but that would not surprise me at all. That would truly be an Honor for my pets.


 I sure hope they do. I also think they have a good chance, as long as the manufacturers don't try to cut corners.

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## Sourdough

The 1911 is a classic piece of machinery that is a joy to look at. It is a ascetic work of art to a firearms lover. The Glocks are Double Butt UGLY, and have not beauty at all, just butt'ugly. The problem is the damn Glocks just work, and work, and work, and they are still butt ugly, but they work, nothing to remember, just pull thingie it go bang. Pull thingie it go bang, and still BUT UGLY......... :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:   The older I get, the simpler I want my tools to operate. Yes, even the Butt UGLY Tools.

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## doug1980

I like the AR's but have never shot the AK.  But Iwould choose the AR because I am very familiar with it and not too shabby shooting it.  Expert 4 years in a row.  :Smile: 

As for the Hand guns...well I have no real favorite only what I have used.  I love my Taurus' and Beretta's.  I also have a SIG and it's not bad either.  I am more accurate with the Beretta but it's also a 9MM and I have shot it a lot.  The SIG is a .40 and I'm ok with that but I haven't shot it much.

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## glockcop

Hope, You hit the nail on the head. The 1911 is a thing of beauty with strong classic lines. The Glock is definately lacking in "perdy"  but to me beauty is as beauty does. Glocks just work no matter what you throw at them (or in them, or them in). I may be crazy but I do think that Sigs are eye pleasing especially the two tone ELITE and all stainless ones. I have two all stainless and 2 two tone. I really like to "fondle" my Sigs just as much as shooting them.  My wife who is very "perdy" gets jealous. Don't go there. You all have filthy minds  :Smile: .

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## doug1980

They old saying in off roading is "Chrome don't get you home" thought that phrase kinda fit this discussion.  But I still do love me some chrome.

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## Pict

I own both the AK and the AR.  There are serious differences between the two weapons.  I wouldn't have a problem with either of them but both have their limitations.

I know my AR starts to get sluggish at about 350 rounds without cleaning and will begin to jam thereafter, failure to feed.  Stripping out the bolt carrier and giving it a quick wipe-down with solvent gets it back up and running.

My AK would stay in action with a monthly decarbonizaton using the awl on my SAK and a splash of kerosene.

My AR is far more accurate than my AK.  With an AK I can hit a steel piggy about 85% of the time at 300 meters.  The AR will do better than that at 400.  Inside 200 meters you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in terms of practical accuracy.  I have a video of me shooting 30 for 30, standing, at an 18 inch gong at 120 yards with the AK.  Not that, that is any great feat of marksmanship but the AK has plenty of combat accuracy at combat ranges.

I give the AK the edge in terms of power and reliability and the AR the advantage in terms of accuracy and handling characteristics.  The 7.62x39 round is better at penetrating cover.  AK magazines are built like tanks whereas the AR mags can't take much abuse.

Either of these guns will serve just fine as long as you know how to run the gun.  I can have either and choose to keep my AK (mags and ammo) on hand while the AR sits in a gunsafe not at my location.  That way if I'm here or there I'll have a gun that works just fine.

As a side note, I used to do alot of full-auto shooting.  One constant feature of full auto shoots is that the guns eventually choke, all of them.  They all run great until they suddenly stop and have to be sorted out.  Except for the AK's, they just don't go down.  The AK is far from perfect but it will be there for you to the end just being it's plain old ugly self.  Mac

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## glockcop

Pict, I do not disbelieve you but you must be blessed with a particullarly accurate AK. Every AK that I have worked with had a very difficult time making even a measurable group on a man sized target at 200 yards. They could be measured in feet not inches. A few stock AR's I've used could print 2inch groups all day long at that yardage. You had better hold on to that sucker if it hits like that. The AK's have run great for me. Just could'nt hit much of the "out yander" stuff. It was outside of their capability, not mine. Take care.

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## Pal334

Well,, that seals it!  :Smile:  We all agree to disagree. We have again presented our varied opinions. Now folks can take what they like from the discussion, or discard the whole thing. Mission accomplished  :Smile: .

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## Ken

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## Rick

> My wife who is very "perdy" gets jealous. Don't go there. You all have filthy minds


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## Ken

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


 
16,552 posts.  And finally, a good one!

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## Rick

It is a nice lamp.

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## Pict

> Pict, I do not disbelieve you but you must be blessed with a particullarly accurate AK. Every AK that I have worked with had a very difficult time making even a measurable group on a man sized target at 200 yards. They could be measured in feet not inches. A few stock AR's I've used could print 2inch groups all day long at that yardage. You had better hold on to that sucker if it hits like that. The AK's have run great for me. Just could'nt hit much of the "out yander" stuff. It was outside of their capability, not mine. Take care.


My AR is a Romanian WUM-1.  It is not a top end AK but it is very well made.
My AK prints 4 inches at 100 yards with good ammo.  I have access to a 500 meter range and have shot the AK out to that distance.

One of my favorite things to do is shoot bowling pins in the strip mine.  I have no problem hitting them with the AK at 150 yards.  In fact I would attribute misses at that range to pilot error not some inherent inaccuracy of the weapon.  At that range I am no better with my AR at hitting them.

At 200 yards I still hit what I'm aiming at with either gun.  Seriously, man sized targets don't stand a chance with either though you can tell at that range that the AR is more precise.  If your target is a clay bird my money is on the AR.

At 300 you start to really notice the difference in a discernible way.  At 300 and above I agree that the AK will be printing "feet not inches".  There are  variety of factors that contribute to this.  The AK has very basic sights that are crude and blocky.  The AK has a short sight radius.  The 7.62x39 round is not a flat shooter.  Combine that with a less than ideal trigger and the AK will frustrate a marksman at that range.  At 300 it would be hard to pick off a partially exposed target, though you can easily lay down effective fire into a small area even with rapid fire.

At 400 you feel like you're taking potshots with the AK.  At that range you will easily drive an exposed person behind cover and may very well hit him.  You stand a greater chance of hitting with the AR, better sights, better trigger, flatter shooting round, you just have a better tool for the job at 400 with an AR.

At 500 you are doing good to see your target with either rifle.  If you are dialed in an AR will cause soiled underwear at that range.  With the AR an individual would conclude "I am being shot at", at 500.  At 500 a squad would conclude "We are begin shot at" with an AK.   

Mac

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## Icemancometh

> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


It took me 20 minutes to see that lamp.  I must be in the gutter.

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## Rick

But you enjoyed that 20 mintues, didn't you? Go on admit it.

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## Icemancometh

That I did.

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## Twosox5

So then I'm thinking that I'll definately go for the AR. Now what I need is some help figuring out what types of components (uppers, lowers and all the bells and whistles that are associated). I am atill well into the dark so to speak. Any and all suggestions would be apreciated.

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## oldsoldier

> That what I'm talking about. I want one of those HUGE smiley faces so I don't get misunderstood sometimes. I just recently learned how to stick those little suckers in my posts. I am a slow learner.  I was really just poking fun. I thought my sarcastic humor was more evident. I did not intend to come across as condescending. Appologies to anyone offended. Now all I need to do is go to confession and my infractions with God will be forgiven. More sarcasm. Best.


glockcop... No offense taken. Opinions,firearm preferences,etc. are like smilies. Everybody has one it's just some are bigger than others. LOL

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## Ken

> glockcop... No offense taken. Opinions,firearm preferences,etc. are like smilies. Everybody has one it's just some are bigger than others. LOL


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