# Prepping / Emergency Preparedness > Bags, Kits and Vehicles >  1 year bug out? Anyone prepared?

## bikerweb

Most Bob's I see are no longer than 72 hour. Anyone see defiance? The scenerio is you have to bug out permanantly. Go through summer and winter. Keep on the move and lightweight. How would you do this? What would you pack? I havent seen anyone do a Bob for this yet.

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## rebel

Yea.  We have the family net work and camper/freeze dried food thingy.

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## SARKY

A BOB is just that, buggin' out for around 72 hrs. Then there is the EBOB or extended BOB which can give you a much longer duration. Then there is the INCH which is the "I'm Not Comming Home" kit . You are not likely to carry this on your back. My INCH kit is in a box that I toss in the car. It has extra food, clothes, seeds for my new homestead garden, and tools. I no longer have a BOB as I have upgraded it to an EBOB. With it and no hunting, trapping or foraging I am good for 2 weeks.

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## bikerweb

Ok let me clarify what I talking about.
For those of you who have not seen defiance.
Your a Jew. Nazis are everywhere. The only option is stay in the woods. Sleep in a different spot every night. Always moving. How long did wwII go on for? Thats a long time.
You cant buy new socks when they wear out. There is no options but to be completley independant. You must carry on your back everything you need.
What would you pack.

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## BENESSE

"Defiance" portrayed a group of people who stuck together and fought together. That's a whole 'nother thing.

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## klkak

I hope everyone in my neighbor hood decides to "bug out".

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## bikerweb

Ok let me start since no one is willing to play.
Cold weather sleping bag
Bug net
hammock

I chose these because in cold weather you need a good warm bag. In summer you can sleep on top of it with the bug screen over you. Ive seen tarp and hammock set ups that work well for this.

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## Sourdough

OK, I'll Play........a 12' by 23' well insulated cabin, in the center of the Chugach National Forest, with a years food, ten cords of split firewood. Two 17 pound sleeping bags (thats 17# Ea.) 2,000 gallons of fuel, moose, bear, Mt. Goats, Dall Sheep, Caribou on the mountain in the back yard. Two rivers with Salmon and Trout. 

Free subsistence hunting license, free subsistence fishing license, a small garden, hundreds of pounds of Nails, a sawmill, two dozers, one smowmachine and a outhouse with no door, four pair of snowshoes, lots of construction tools. A herd of trained attack geese, 17 security cameras, just a few firearms, and just a few cartridges. And No Woman. I made my choice in 1999.

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## Beans

> I no longer have a BOB as I have upgraded it to an EBOB. With it and no hunting, trapping or foraging *I am good for 2 weeks*.


In Cali that is just a wait on the freeway after an accident.   :Shifty:   :Batman:  :munchies:

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## bikerweb

Sourdough... All of that is useless when the Nazis come and you have to run. play by the rules.

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## Sourdough

> Sourdough... All of that is useless when the Nazis come and you have to run. play by the rules.


I don't play by the rules, You play by the rules......Me I CHEAT.
I am 64 years old and I damn sure ain't bugging out.

My father killed nazis, my uncles killed nazis, and my Uncle Bob was killed by nazis.
So if you have any nazis in your back pocket, bring the heat.

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## Sourdough

OK, This is the best I can offer it is from a different thread:

My thinking is, If I at 64 years of age I am going to hump 20 miles a day with an escape and evasion pack of say 45 to 50 pounds I would be inclined to not carry a rifle & pistol both as most revolvers weigh three pounds empty. I feel I would be better served with three more pounds of ammo.

My vision (or Goal) is to be able to exit my cabin with one pack and one firearm, and have NO food resupplied, No human contact for at least six months. With enough fishing gear, the proper firearm, and my 41 years guiding all over Alaska, I feel it is doable, not enjoyable, but doable.

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## bikerweb

I was thinking of a small takedown .22 to hunt small game. Plus the report would be quieter.

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## BENESSE

> Sourdough... All of that is useless when the Nazis come and you have to run. play by the rules.





> Ok let me start since no one is willing to play.
> Cold weather sleping bag
> Bug net
> hammock
> 
> I chose these because in cold weather you need a good warm bag. In summer you can sleep on top of it with the bug screen over you. Ive seen tarp and hammock set ups that work well for this.


Bikerweb, I hope you've got a better plan for surviving and fighting the "Nazis" then the stuff you listed. 
You're not playing by your own rules to make the scenario remotely credible.

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## Winnie

To answer your question, I do not plan to bug out for a year. being the mean old b*tch I am, I don't play by the rules either.

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## bikerweb

Seems like alot of ego on here. 
Just wanted to get a fun game going.
Nevermind.

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## Sourdough

> Seems like alot of ego on here. 
> Just wanted to get a fun game going.
> Nevermind.


Wilderness Survival is NOT a game.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I am good for about 3 years or so, after that, I suppose I will need a full time night woman around and about. Til then, I am good alone.

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## Camp10

> Seems like alot of ego on here. 
> Just wanted to get a fun game going.
> Nevermind.


Dont take it personal.  There have been so many attempts at this same game and they all end the same...there is no right answer.  If you want to share some advice, skills or equipment you use that might help others with any kind of long term wilderness survival then we would love to learn.

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## Rick

I'm not sure why you think there are ego's here just because folks don't fit your mold or won't play your game by your rules. 

The reality is a one year bug out is not realistic. You are not going to be carrying a pack and a ton of stuff for a year. Those that lived via the scenario you describe had help or they would not have survived. Not every gentile German was an anti-Semite. Many provided shelter when possible and food and clothing to whatever extent they could. It might have only been a beet or a potato but they did help. And folks were not on the move either. Many lived near rivers in animal burrows that they dug out over time depositing the dirt in the river at night so it would not be seen. 

 I would go so far as to say it is not possible to live for a year without any type of resupply AND be on the move. It's just not doable.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I actually disagree with you rick....it does however depend of what you call living and surviving.

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## Sourdough

> I would go so far as to say it is not possible to live for a year without any type of resupply AND be on the move. It's just not doable.


Damn sure NOT doable in Alaska for a year straight. Which is why come early winter everyone built a structure, and throughout the summer cached food.

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## Sourdough

> I actually disagree with you rick....it does however depend of what you call living and surviving.


The deal breaker is you have to keep moving.

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## Rick

If our swamp boys were really really good on wild edibles they might....might....be able to pull it off. I know I couldn't in the Midwest either.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

EGO = Extrovert Gun Owner................if it is SHTF, there are NO rules ...I already distrust anyone anyways.....the only rule will be me and mine or yours and I pretty (EGO) sure, me and mine will put up a pretty good fight and "GAME."

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## randyt

one year bug out would be tough. For sake of discussion how long did Ishi last before he reached out for help? if anybody could have made it he could have. the other that comes to mind is wild bill moreland but I suspect he was crazy. oh yea there was those japanese soldiers that made it for a long time too.

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## klkak

Wilderness survival scenario check list

Training scenarios are an excellent tool to get the mind moving in the direction of the desired training.  When preparing a scenario there are many variables that must be considered.  In the case of this forum the scenario would be geared toward wilderness survival.  Following is a list of things to consider when preparing a wilderness survival scenario.

1.  Reason:  How or why did you end up in this situation?
2.  Location:  Alaska, Ontario, New Mexico, Colombia, Africa. Etc.
3.  Environment:  Arctic, Tundra, Boreal forest, Jungle, Desert. Etc.
4.  Season:  Spring, summer, fall, winter. Etc.
5.  Weather:  Clear and sunny, Cloudy, Raining, Snow. Etc.
6.  Temperature:  Extreme heat, Moderate, Cold, Extreme cold. Etc.
7.  Number in party:  Several people or a lone person.
8.  Health:  Are there any injuries.
9.  Equipment:  If any. Describe in detail to the point of how a person is dressed.
10.  Desired out come:  Use specific questions. I.e.  What would be your first priority?  What kind of shelter would you build?   Would you try to walk out?
11.  Provide feed back:
12.  Try to keep the “thread” on point.

*Don’t be offended or get your feelings hurt if you are asked for more information.  Remember the training scenario is used to “train”.  Some people just naturally need more information then others.*

Before posting the scenario; you should do it yourself.  See what your answers would be.
This will give you an idea how others will respond.

“MAKE SURE YOU RUN THE SPELL CHECK BEFORE YOU POST”

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## Rick

I could never compare my skills to Ishi. If someone were truly born of the earth he would be a prime example. All he knew was the earth from his birth. The woods was his supermarket. 

As for the remnant Japanese the South Pacific islands change the whole scenario. If you live in an area of relatively abundant food year round and the average temperature is something like 75F then you just upped your odds a whole bunch.

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## klkak

> one year bug out would be tough. For sake of discussion how long did* Ishi* last before he reached out for help? if anybody could have made it he could have. the other that comes to mind is wild bill moreland but I suspect he was crazy. oh yea there was those japanese soldiers that made it for a long time too.


Ishi was a stone age Indian that lived off the land his entire life. Not an urban neophyte that wants to play in the woods. 

What you are suggesting is not realistic.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Unless my land becomes inhabitable due to lets say a chem/nuke accident, I do not see me on the move except for the first week going from point A to point H with way point stashes in between. If I honestly need to be on the move for what ever reasons, we have plans for that also with fall back plans to that. 

I am really not worried about Nazis... well...... except for the Twinkie Nazi's, take my Twinks and you will have a real fight on your hands, nuttin I hate worse than a Twink stealer or Twink overlord........

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## Rick

Hey now! Some things are not joke material. Don't go talkin' like that. There are no Twinkie Overlords. Zombies sure.

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## klkak

Survival situation scenario

A. Beginner

Understand that there are no wrong answers. This is meant to get you thinking. It is a training scenario. Your answers will be critiqued in such a way that guides you to making the best decisions possible. Good luck.

You and your best friend are at the end of a 5 day fly in hunting trip.  You are looking forward to being picked up this morning and are happy to see the small float plane as it lands.

Because both of you have been successful harvesting deer, the pilot will have to make three trips in stead of the two trips it took to put you on the island. The first trip takes your hunting trophies. Your best friend is somewhat older then you and is feeling a little worse for wear so you allow him to go out on the second trip with the gear. The plane takes off at 12:00pm. It is a four hour round trip so you expect the plane to return just before dark to pick you up.

It is now 5:00pm and dark. You have seen nor heard nothing of the float plane and realize you are stuck on the island for the night. To make matters worse, the weather is starting to drop a rain/snow mixture.

Its going to be a long, cold, wet night. Get yourself through it.

Type of environment:  Coastal bush Alaska. The terrain is steep and heavily wooded. The ground does level out as you approach the beach.  The ground is covered with a thick, heavy, wet moss.

Weather conditions:  Cloudy. Temperatures are right at freezing. There is a slushy rain falling.

Season:  Mid November

Equipment: 
Water proof hunting pants and parka w/liner
Wool watch cap and baseball cap
Set of polypro long underwear
1 pair cotton boxer briefs
1 pair mid weight smart wool socks, 1 pair heavy weight smart wool socks
1 pair 800 thinsulate rubber knee boots
1 pair polypro glove liners, 1 pair goretex leather gloves
1 small day pack
1 high quality fixed blade hunting knife
1 Leatherman supertool
.22lr revolver with 50rds of ammo
Expensive divers style wrist watch
LED head lamp
1 5ft x 7ft piece of heavy plastic sheeting
15ft 3 ply 3/8 twisted nylon rope

Supplies:
1 small bag of trail mix
1 liter bottle of water

Number of people in the group: You are alone

Each person's strengths: N/A

Weaknesses: N/A

Medical condition: Not injured

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## randyt

> Ishi was a stone age Indian that lived off the land his entire life. Not an urban neophyte that wants to play in the woods. 
> 
> What you are suggesting is not realistic.


actually I'm not suggesting that if Ishi could do it we can. The point is after Ishi lost his people and was alone he couldn't do it either and look at his skills. If a guy like that couldn't do it how could modern man.

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## Rick

Mike - Take a look at this thread. Maybe you've seen it, I don't know. But it does a nice job of describing the various mentalities on here. (or mental cases, which ever)

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...out-This-Forum

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Spell check before I post....Oh lord, please do not tell me Art Eatman (TFL & THR) is running this board too.......I would not like it if the spell check Nazi's took over the world....it would be a bad bad bad times for me....

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I think Rick just called me a mental case....* stomps and sips my coffee and looks at the knife I need to sharpen.....Oh wait, it was sharp...*other self * Oh no it is not, it needs sharpening....* are you sure....*Yes, I am sure now sharpen you heathan ....... does anyone else have these convo's with self??

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## Rick

Are you talking to me? He was talking to me. Yeah, right, like anyone cares what you have to say.

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## BH51

I believe if I had to "Bug-Out" for a year.....My backpack would include a copy
of, Speaking Latino for Dummies....Rope, knife, money and a good supply of a
pain reliever,......Because this is gonna hurt........................................BH51

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I honestly see the point to the thread question, the issue is the amount of detail needed to answer it. Each person here would need a BOOK to answer it correctly as each one of us would approach it in a different way. My plans are my plans, regardless of being good or with many faults. Each one of us could look at the others plans and pick it apart like daisies. 

I can survive in the woods in MY area for as long as my 20% kidney function lasts. At my cabin, I have the equipment and supplies to do dialysis for 2 years as long as my access points stayed viable. In that time I could create the equipment to do PD dialysis via fluid exchanges (not the same as hemo dialysis) and live on forever. My Kidney failure is truly my only limitation to perpetual survival in the bush or at the homestead. 

Each person brings with them their own unique set of needs and skills. One skill set off and you die.....You do not need to be Ishi to do it either. Many of folk have went to the hills and lived, thrived and survived and as many or if not more went to the hills and died. 

I feel with my full skill set of skills and in MY 5 state area, If I make it to 6 months, then I can make it for as long as my natural life allows it. Could I do this lets say AZ, Fla, Maine, Idaho...I am not sure, maybe Idaho yes, the others I just do not know the areas. 1/2 to 3/5 of my current life is living it....not a far stretch to extend those skills and living it 24/7.

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## klkak

> actually I'm not suggesting that if Ishi could do it we can. The point is after Ishi lost his people and was alone he couldn't do it either and look at his skills. If a guy like that couldn't do it how could modern man.


Sorry, Got it !

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## bikerweb

Rick- Thats my point. I posted the thread. No one made anyone come in here and post smart *** replys. I was looking for friendly conversation. If it wasnt your type of game then you didnt have to play. 

The whole message was lost on this board. It had nothing to do with nazis. It was about an enemy force occupying your homeland. I used the nazis because not all people had to go into hiding. So you couldnt trust many of your neighbors.

Sourdough- Your ego is not justified. This is my thread. My little space out in the cosmos. I dont care who you think you are and what youve done. You had no right to bring your negativity to my game. 
And what the hell is " wilderness survival is NOT a game mean"? Should it be a chore? A miserable existance because youre a victim?
I can go into the woods naked and come out a year later fat and happy wearing skins I tanned myself. The native people of this land didnt consider it a chore to survive. They walked with the spirits of this land and were taken care of by them.
Grouch.

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## klkak

> Rick- Thats my point. I posted the thread. No one made anyone come in here and post smart *** replys. I was looking for friendly conversation. If it wasnt your type of game then you didnt have to play. 
> 
> The whole message was lost on this board. It had nothing to do with nazis. It was about an enemy force occupying your homeland. I used the nazis because not all people had to go into hiding. So you couldnt trust many of your neighbors.
> 
> Sourdough- Your ego is not justified. This is my thread. My little space out in the cosmos. I dont care who you think you are and what youve done. You had no right to bring your negativity to my game. 
> And what the hell is " wilderness survival is NOT a game mean"? Should it be a chore? A miserable existance because youre a victim?
> I can go into the woods naked and come out a year later fat and happy wearing skins I tanned myself. The native people of this land didnt consider it a chore to survive. They walked with the spirits of this land and were taken care of by them.
> Grouch.


Some body got his feelings hurt.

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## bikerweb

Ohiogrizzgap- You seem to be willing to have an intelligent discussion. Thanks. 
Heres more on my veiwpoint.
A while back last year I think some marine killed his pregnant girlfriend and Was found surviving in mexico. He evaded capture for a good while. This guy is by no means my hero. Its dispicable what he did. But the scenerio fits. Alone, on the run. Permanantly.
So, If I had to go on the lam what I would pack is...
Sleeping bag
Hammock
bug net
tarp
knife
Magnesium fire starter
20ft of fishing line with hook
.22 takedown rifle
not sure how many pounds of ammo
cleaning kit for rifle
hand crank radio with flashlight
not sure how many feet of paracord
any other ideas? So far this is a pretty light setup.
In a fugitive situation you would need to stay isolated. That greatly reduces your odds. Thats why I went with defiance. In a nazi situation you can find others to work with. Thats a good force multiplier. Eventually the hammock would rip and the sleeping bag would loose its loft. But I think this is so far the best I can come up with.

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## bikerweb

klkak-No feelings hurt here. Why would there be? I dont know these guys. Dont see them in my everyday life. They are just a set of words on a screen to me.
I do however wont allow people to just think they can drag mud through my livingroom. That behavior isnt appropriate.

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## BENESSE

> I can go into the woods naked and come out a year later fat and happy wearing skins I tanned myself.


That's great!
Just a tip, though: when you hear banjo music, run the other way.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Please, there shall not be any Naked into the Wilderness pictures.........

Biker, we are all characters here, each of us has our own personality......regardless of ego-centric or completely withdrawn from a conversation except for 1 word. We all bring our personalities to these boards...otherwise, why else would we be here. 

Tolerance of characters is another survival tool....if you have an issue with someone because they have an ego or they down play what you say. Throw it back to them in their own realm. I understand where you are coming from. I too was not too happy when someone here that had ZERO right to question my Navy service, decided to tear it apart, for what reason, only to prove he was an idiot. I got over it and went on to write some posts that I hope induced thought. 

Yes, it is your thread BUT it is OUR (yours, mine, others good and bad) collective forum. 

Take the good with the bad, keep what means something to you and move past those that bother you. Sooner or later, the forum as a whole will walk past those that are spammers, fighters, mal-contents and such....they will come and go with the wind. 

All in all, SD's or anyones so called "EGO," is somewhat justified due to experience and living it. Learn from them, look past what you think is EGO and take their knowledge and thrive on it, do not despise it. We are all individuals here.....

In person, I am a crass, rough, gruff miserable curmudgeon with NO sense of political correctness....... On here I can show what a sweetheart I really am....  :Smile: ) 

Just IMHO............ * steps back, chews on a sassafrass root and watches the show......

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## Sourdough

> And what the hell is " wilderness survival is NOT a game mean"? Should it be a chore? A miserable existance because you're a victim?
> I can go into the woods naked and come out a year later fat and happy wearing skins I tanned myself. The native people of this land didn't consider it a chore to survive. They walked with the spirits of this land and were taken care of by them.
> Grouch.


This is all I need to see to know 100% that you are clueless about wilderness survival. Totally and completely clueless. And you don't know crap about native people and what they endured. Your a dumb'arse clueless, Watanabe dreamer.

Now if you don't like that response, I have a tee shirt for you:  "If you can't run with the Big Dogs, keep your puppy butt on the porch"

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## klkak

BW, The questions you ask are the same ones that have been asked a multitude of times here. 

There is no such thing as "a survival game" Survival is not a game!
There is no such thing as "Survival camping" You went camping and forgot your gear
There is no such thing as "Long term survival" Survival is what you do to get yourself out of a very bad situation as fast as you can.

I for one am about sick of hearing folks apply the word survival to everything.
survival shirt
survival hat
survival tent
survival knife
survival gun

It's all a bunch of Cr@p!

If you bug out for a year you haven't bugged out, you moved!

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## Winnie

> BW, The questions you ask are the same ones that have been asked a multitude of times here. 
> 
> There is no such thing as "a survival game" Survival is not a game!
> There is no such thing as "Survival camping" You went camping and forgot your gear
> There is no such thing as "Long term survival" Survival is what you do to get yourself out of a very bad situation as fast as you can.
> 
> I for one am about sick of hearing folks apply the word survival to everything.
> survival shirt
> survival hat
> ...


Ha! I was going to say something similar, but mine was much ruder and I couldn't think of a 13 rated answer at the time!

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Kind of like the word "Tactical" I swear if I see one more tactical water pistol, I am gonna puke....... here is my tactical NAA revolver...... 


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## bikerweb

Sourdough- I got your card now. Angry old man, hiding from people in Alaska. Quick to anger. Fast to make snap judgement of people without taking the time to really get to know them before opening your mouth. Growing up with a father with PTSD and also your uncle would do that. Poor sad little boy. Still paying for your childhood all these years later. If you had taken the time to know me you would have found out your assumption was way off about me. 

"This is all I need to see to know 100% that you are clueless about wilderness survival. Totally and completely clueless. And you don't know crap about native people and what they endured. Your a dumb'arse dreamer. "

My qualifications are,
SERE Training (look it up if you dont know what it is)
Outdoor guide trained in stone age and primitive cutlure living.
I spend at least 6 months of the year living outdoors.

So as to your claims of being 100% clueless... Youre wrong. Your people skills are whats detrimental to you own survival in the here and now. You can disagree and go on and on how happy you are and how you have tons of friends. But we both know no matter how surrounded by people you are(which I highly doubt) that youre all alone.

I am not some romantic that sits on the internet and puts down other people. I live this life. Its a game to me because its easy. Its not a big deal to thrive in the wilderness if you know how. The problem is that modern man has lost his connection to the land. We are made of the earth. This is our domain. Its not a drudgery to live in the wilderness for me. Its how I walk with God. These are a few things you too can learn if you spend more time with native peoples. 

Now thats all I will give you. Go try and bully someone else. I will no longer respond to you.
If you want help you can private message me. Some people just need someone to listen. If thats the case Im here for you brother. If not then goodbye.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Gee, that all went well.... * sighs and swigs some tomato wine........

Breath SD breath... let it out slow and take your trigger off the MOAB....... 

Biker, my perfect BOB is a good knife and a spark-lite firestarter.......I do however enjoy my clothes and would scare all the game for 20 miles radius if I went to the wilderness naked and would starve to death while the animals laugh behind the bushes. 

Your credentials, although impressive, do not matter. I know many a college folk that cannot find a job at McDonalds. Your questions and responses seem noobish and that is why people are not answering your main post in a serious way. I am new too, but I came to this site with knowledge and experience and I try my best to share it.....not tear it down. 

I am curious as I kind of want to take a class in it, your primative skills class, which one was it and do you have a contact for it. My GF calls me a caveman, I might as well get the skills of one LOL

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## Sourdough

Bikerweb, For your enjoyment.

The wilderness can change a man............ 
There is a real transformation that can metamorphose within a man who is alone in the wilderness. He can exit the wilderness fragile, very fragile, he is no longer sure where that which is himself ends and that which is not himself starts. 

Everything is kind of fuzzy, and has a softness about it, all things appear slightly blurred to the eye, like after one has been crying, and it can be hard to distinguish where one object stops and another object starts.

He feels weak and vulnerable, but centered. In fact he is stronger, but the feeling of weakness, and vulnerability comes from the loss of arrogance. 

There is a clarity about the perfection of everything. Sounds are crisper, colors are different, there are so many more (new) colors now.

He feels as if he is looking through things and through people, this is a very uncomfortable experience, he tries to focus, but he just looks through everything.

Part of him wants to go back to the way it was, before being alone in the wilderness. But he also enjoys the bliss of how it is now. He wants to weep for no reason, but for the perfection of everything.

He has change, and can not change back to that which he was before, being alone in the wilderness.

I know not of drugs, but being alone in the wilderness, for long periods will change your perception of the universe. The universe is the same, but you have shifted to a place where you can see, with new eyes, a new heart, and a new empathy for all life. You have been born a second time, and are a child of the wilderness.

There was a time long ago, that a man was encouraged to go into the wilderness alone for a extended period, so that he might find wisdom about life. Sad it is discouraged today. Welcome home....welcome home. Home from the wilderness, for he is free to return at any time to your true nature.

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## bikerweb

Sourdough- I said we were done. I have no time for drama. But we are on common ground now. I will assume that you know what all that meant since you posted it. And if you do then you know the love and connection I have for this earth. I agree wholeheartedly that "being alone in the wilderness, for long periods will change your perception of the universe".
I can get how easy it is to have that kind of connection with nature and yet be so short with our fellow man. Balance is key. For even imperfect messed up men are part of this earth too.
Funny how things work out. I started this post to have light fun.
Ended up talking deep poetry.
I love the unexpected!

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## randyt

back to that tomatah wine.  is that for real? do ya make it yourself? are ya pulling my leg? does it have a bite? if so is the bite from the tomatah or the alcohol?

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## Sourdough

Bikerweb, I don't know how it is on other forums. But here if you start a thread.......You Do NOT own that thread. You can block me so you can't see my posts. But you might enjoy crashing around some of my Blog posts:http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...3751-Sourdough (If not that is OK).

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## klkak

Biker boy you haven't been here long enough to challenge anyone.  I don't care how good you think you are there are others who are better. Sourdough and several others don't live in the Alaska bush because they are running, hiding, showing off or trying to prove anything. They do it because it suits them and they are actually doing it instead of just talking about it on the Internet.

I too was a highly trained military man. I've learned more in the last 15 years living and working in the Alaska bush then the military could have ever taught me.

*You are like so many other folks who have log on here and tried to impress everyone with their skills.  It is better to come in like a lamb and go out like a lion then to come in like a lion and get your yap slapped in the dirt then leave with your tail between you legs or get banned for being a slow listening, fast talking, bad mouthing "numpty".*

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## OhioGrizzLapp

The tomato wine is very real, this one has a garlic hint to it, almost like a V8 with a butt kick at the end. It is 17% alcohol. I traded a box of 45-70 rounds for 3 gallons. I use it when I have a cold/flu rather than taking nyquil or thera flu...this time I did take a thera flu though only because of how bad it got me in a short time. This stuff is kind of like a Bloody Mary but add a crime scene to go with it. Nuttin like dunken a celerey stalk into this and slipping the noon away propped up on the computer chair here and watching the show.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Hmmmm I might name this Tomater Elixer "Numpty Wine."

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## hunter63

DW and tried bugging out for 2 weeks. Early March....cold.
Made the desision, and were on the road is 45 min.
Headed to "The Place", one of the BOL's with it's "preps" and "stuff".

First week went well, second week we were seeing holes in the plan, to be addressed.

You can run this stuff thru your mind, ask your questions, play a game............but still need to just do it.

Question, why just a year?.......

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## klkak

> Hmmmm I might name this Tomater Elixer "Numpty Wine."


Numpty Wine................I love it!

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## randyt

Sound kinda good. I'll do a google on it and see what comes up. all this talk about wine, I remembered that a fella gave me a bottle of dandylion wine.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Hunter, that is what I am saying... your kit should have items that will last a lafetime rather than just a few sparks and couple gallens of water. The knowledge to use what is in a kit or your territory is far more important than what is in it. Although the movie in which the OP keeps stating.... somewhere in there, he had to shoot his horse to survive, so it was NOT all living off the land. As far as the SNOTzies, they were doomed to fail sooner or later.

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## hunter63

> BW, The questions you ask are the same ones that have been asked a multitude of times here. 
> 
> There is no such thing as "a survival game" Survival is not a game!
> There is no such thing as "Survival camping" You went camping and forgot your gear
> There is no such thing as "Long term survival" Survival is what you do to get yourself out of a very bad situation as fast as you can.
> 
> I for one am about sick of hearing folks apply the word survival to everything.
> survival shirt
> survival hat
> ...



Well, the thought occurred to me that no one would buy a "Non survival knife"

The term, buzz word, or what ever you want to call it, that gets me.....Is "GREEN" really means to add 20% more to the price.

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## hunter63

> Hmmmm I might name this Tomater Elixer "Numpty Wine."


You usually don't ask when a jug is passed around at the fire, just take a slug, or pass........
Pass the jug.

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## klkak

> You usually don't ask when a jug is passed around at the fire, just take a slug, or pass........
> Pass the jug.


Don't bogart that jug my friend.....Pass it over to me.......la la la la

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## OhioGrizzLapp

No No No I got it... just to drive Klkak out the in zone.... "Survival Wine".............that is gonna be my new screen name.... NoNoNoWellOKNumpty

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## OhioGrizzLapp

LOL this wine is in 1 gallon ceramic jugs actually LOL with a wired rubber cork top....

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Ok back to the ops question... 1 year, wilderness....As long as I am in my territory, yes, I believe I could not only survive, but thrive for a year or more without resupply, if my knife breaks, I should still be ok as we have a ton of flint and obsidian here and I have made some tools from it... Other areas NO. I have fared well in AK and HI, MT, ID, WA, OR, CO, VT, NC, PA, IN, IL, NY, KY, W. VA. but never the dry states....I know so little of real des survival, I know basics from training, but have never had to apply the training.

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## klkak

I think you've had to much of your "Numpty wine"

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## crashdive123

bikerweb - if you want to run a what if scenario it may be helpful for you and those that want to participate to use this template.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...rio-Check-List  This way you can use clearly defined parameters to both play the game, and learn something in the process.

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## randyt

this thread gives me a idea. The "bug out diet plan" in as little as a few months a person would be at there lowest adult weight ever. At least for me, I've seen times that not a creature was stirring not even a toad for days on end.  Even though I wasn't in a bug out situation I went from 195 to 160 lbs in 6 weeks. You can eat all the greens and thistle wanted and I think about the only thing that will do is give a loose bowel movement. LOL. One thing about a bug out is it's based on movement, it's a challenge to acquire resources whilst on the move. And the time of year the bug out starts could be a deal breaker. I'm not saying it can't be done but I think it would be a challenge even for the well trained.

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## crashdive123

OOPS.  I made my above post before I read pages 3 and 4 of this thread.

A couple of points.  I you want to play a game - General Chat may be a better location to post it - clearly stating that you want to play a game.  To most - survival is not a game (and I suspect you feel the same).  That's not to say we don't like to have a little fun - just read the threads and you'll see that.  But saying that you "own" a thread isn't going to play well (here or anyplace else I suspect).

To all - flaming doesn't help anything - please don't.

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## Sourdough

> To all - flaming doesn't help anything - please don't.



Hehehehehehe.......We had fun while the Moderators were gone.........Hehehehehehe OK we were Bad but it was all Nells fault.........Hehehehehe

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> If our swamp boys were really really good on wild edibles they might....might....be able to pull it off. I know I couldn't in the Midwest either.


I think I could do it Rick, I'd need more gear than I can carry, all of which I have. But I sure don't have any fantasies about it. I have done a couple of weeks and when your done your so ready to go home. The water and mud sucks the life from you. I'd be able to eat well. The sun, the heat, the mud, the bugs, well it'd be miserable after a few weeks.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

> Hehehehehehe.......We had fun while the Moderators were gone.........Hehehehehehe *OK we were Bad* but it was all Nells fault.........Hehehehehe


Who is "WE" Tanto.....see, I am caught hanging with the wrong kids again.....yeah yeah yeah Mom, I know and I will neva learn our family Dutch Pleasentries, I had to change the convo to alcohol to stave a civil war. OK, who the heck is Nell? Also.... what the heck does "Flamming" mean, never heard the term on a board before??

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

Nell is a good friend on the forum...be very careful.

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## Sourdough

Ask "Batcat" what happens to anyone who besmirches the name of Nell.

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## BENESSE

ME?! How would _I_ know? 
_I_ never besmirched anyone, let alone sister Nell.
Honestly SD, let him ax someone else.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

No besmirching, just wondered who and why we are blaming her LOL 

LOLOLOL Batcap.... I actually spit my coffee when I had seen that LOL

I think SD is just misdirecting the attention.......* sprays a huge SD in orange on his cape.......

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## Sourdough

"Batcat" was a member who went over the line and said something to Nell (The sweetheart of the forum) and the whole wolf pack shredded him, it was just plain ugly.

OK, this was the kiss and make nice after all hell broke loose the hight before. (We really were a wild bunch in the old days)http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ghlight=Batcat

I can't find the super flaming war but it had to have been the night of Feb. the 8th  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ghlight=Batcat

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## nell67

> ME?! How would _I_ know? 
> _I_ never besmirched anyone, let alone sister Nell.
> Honestly SD, let him ax someone else.


LOL Wrong Batcat BEE,but that was good! Love ya sis.

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## nell67

> Hehehehehehe.......We had fun while the Moderators were gone.........Hehehehehehe OK we were Bad but it was all Nells fault.........Hehehehehe


Wow I can even start trouble when I am not even here! LOL

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## BENESSE

Oh good, what a relief!

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## Rick

My freakin' internet has been down but the sheriff is back in town!

Biker - chill out. You are way too new to be dissin' long time forum members for any reason. You don't "own" anything around here. 

To the Rest of you - You know better than to flame a member. We don't do name calling. Biker is right in one regard, if you don't like the thread don't participate. 

Now, move along everyone. Nothin' here to see.

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## crashdive123

Well, at least one of the Deputies showed up on post 73. :Innocent:

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## Rick

I can always count on you to lay down the law. 

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## hunter63

So......How come it is that when a serious thread is started, gets about 10-15 posts, but when a nubie asked a "well, maybe not so well thought out" thread, doesn't like the responses, seem to just go on forever.....?
Whats wrong with this picture?

Maybe need a fresh point of view from time to time?

I do really try to be serious, after all, I sure there was interest to participate, or some of these new thread wouldn't be started.

(Stepping down from my stump now....)

Carry on,.... back to the action.

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## BENESSE

> So......How come it is that when a serious thread is started, gets about 10-15 posts, but when a nubie asked a "well, maybe not so well thought out" thread, doesn't like the responses, seem to just go on forever.....?
> Whats wrong with this picture?


A cat will eat its canned food and be done with it, but will play with the mouse for a much longer time before actually eating it, if ever.
It's kinda like that.

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## hunter63

> A cat will eat its canned food and be done with it, but will play with the mouse for a much longer time before actually eating it, if ever.
> It's kinda like that.



LOL, LOL, LOl....Spitting my coffee all over.
I think you are right.......I like the way you think.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I would rather meet some folk face to face in a camp over red eye coffee and discuss these things rather than type on and on and on.....1 I am not that good a speller and 2. My lil nubbies get sore from yelling (typing) No No No No No No No pouring kerosene on open dead wood is NOT a viable fire starting tool in National Parks....please remove the gallon can you are humping around in your pack and buy some "Fire Ribbon." (snickers, lil does the noob know that it is just hand sanitizer) ........or.............me getting physically ill/upset that someone (looks around to the trouble makers) has a very ill concieved notion to hunt Polar Bear with a home made slingshot while humping a 75 pound pack and dragging a sled with a pot belly stove up hill 40 miles a day at age 96 just so he doesn't have to pay his Time/Life magazine bill.

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## hunter63

> I would rather meet some folk face to face in a camp over red eye coffee and discuss these things rather than type on and on and on.....1 I am not that good a speller and 2. My lil nubbies get sore from yelling (typing) No No No No No No No pouring kerosene on open dead wood is NOT a viable fire starting tool in National Parks....please remove the gallon can you are humping around in your pack and buy some "Fire Ribbon." (snickers, lil does the noob know that it is just hand sanitizer) ........or.............me getting physically ill/upset that someone (looks around to the trouble makers) has a very ill concieved notion to hunt Polar Bear with a home made slingshot while humping a 75 pound pack and dragging a sled with a pot belly stove up hill 40 miles a day at age 96 just so he doesn't have to pay his Time/Life magazine bill.


LOL
WOW, now I am impressed...... You really did all that stuff, you know speaking from experiance and all?

"pot belly stove up hill 40 miles a day at age 96" Was that one way, or each way, and did you come home for lunch? LOL

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## Rick

You laugh. Some of the AK folks will back me on this (I hope). When the Alaska gold rush was on the RCMP required 1 ton of supplies.  1000 pounds of food and 1000 pounds of other gear before you could head out on your "adventure of a life time". There are wood stoves along that trail that were eventually (sooner than later I'm sure) cast aside not to mention all manner of other weird stuff.

Scroll down on this link and you can see the 1 ton of gear that was suggested: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilkoot_Trail

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Hunter: I am only 91 and still do it in my Garfield slippers and mickey Mouse hat and I dont even take the sling shot....I will just "Grin" the bear down... that old fart over there needs to just relax and feed the bunnies..... Yes, uphill both ways...... that tomater wine made me a mater hater today.......

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## JPGreco

> So......How come it is that when a serious thread is started, gets about 10-15 posts, but when a nubie asked a "well, maybe not so well thought out" thread, doesn't like the responses, seem to just go on forever.....?
> Whats wrong with this picture?


Benesse's answer was good, but I think it is because stupid is contagious.  Someone comes in, asks a stupid question (yes, there are stupid questions) and everyone else is afflicted by stupidity and the thread drags on with stupidity.  Before you know it, the thread is nothing but stupid, with people slinging dumb back and forth, until a mod steps in.  Sometimes it continues after that, but usually the threat of banishment or other punishments bring everyone back out of their stupor.

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## Rick

Man, I sure hope my posts were all good. I had a really great gig for Mike about doing it in his Garfield slippers but I guess I had better not after your post.

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## crashdive123

Wait a second.  I thought it was usually the mod that was slinging.........oh never mind.

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## JPGreco

I guess I should edit it to _Until a mod stops participating and says stop_

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## crashdive123

Nah.  B nailed it.

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## klkak

So what happened to bikerweb? Did he bug out?

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## finallyME

Sorry didn't read all the comments to this thread, just the first page.

Some things to consider for a year long backpack.  If you want gear that lasts more than a year, it will weigh more than 100lbs.  Lightweight backpacking gear won't last a year of constant use.  Most through hikers (hiking for a few months at a time) have to resupply many times.  There is no way to carry a years worth of food either.  So, that brings you to bushcrafting for survival, and that negates the need to move.  There are two things that don't go together; carrying everything on your back and moving constantly, and bushcrafting.  Bushcrafting requires that you stay in place for a period of time.  It takes time to build a shelter, hunt for food, etc.

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## gordy

> Most Bob's I see are no longer than 72 hour. Anyone see defiance? The scenerio is you have to bug out permanantly. Go through summer and winter. Keep on the move and lightweight. How would you do this? What would you pack? I havent seen anyone do a Bob for this yet.


Yeah I packed huge 1 year BOB, it had 600 pounds of rice, 600 pounds of oats, wet rations, 4 ton of filtered water, a full medical chest.

It was murder on my shoulder straps, but that 1 year BOB is going to come in handy.

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## sushidog

Hey, maybe if you had one of those robotic suits they used in the movie Avatar. Then you could carry all that weight (less the water of course, that's why Jesus made Katadyn water filters) and have some sweet armament too.

Short of that, how about loading that much food into a light weight, high capacity travel trailer? Better yet, how about loading it into one of those horse trailers with a living space in front (horse optional)? It would be towed by a 1 ton pick-up with about 300 extra gallons of extra fuel and a small generator and/or mini trail bike in the bed (if you're not a horse person.) You could cover much more ground in a shorter period of time than on foot, set up and take down camp quickly, and basically hide in plain sight - sort of in stealth survival mode. Just be sure to have a 4wd truck with a huge front bumper for clearing the road of abandoned vehicles in time of need. Of course a little demolition gear (legal 2 component mixtures of course) and a good winch wouldn't hurt either.

Chip

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## gordy

> Hey, maybe if you had one of those robotic suits they used in the movie Avatar. Then you could carry all that weight (less the water of course, that's why Jesus made Katadyn water filters) and have some sweet armament too.
> 
> Short of that, how about loading that much food into a light weight, high capacity travel trailer? Better yet, how about loading it into one of those horse trailers with a living space in front (horse optional)? It would be towed by a 1 ton pick-up with about 300 extra gallons of extra fuel and a small generator and/or mini trail bike in the bed (if you're not a horse person.) You could cover much more ground in a shorter period of time than on foot, set up and take down camp quickly, and basically hide in plain sight - sort of in stealth survival mode. Just be sure to have a 4wd truck with a huge front bumper for clearing the road of abandoned vehicles in time of need. Of course a little demolition gear (legal 2 component mixtures of course) and a good winch wouldn't hurt either.
> 
> Chip


LOL,

I had to do it, he's never seen a one year bug out bag. LOL.

Neither have we.

A one year bug out trailer or pick up, yeah sure, that's doable. Fuel, propane and water tanks, gensets, dry and wet ration etc, sure thing.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

bikerweb, I would like to have this conversation with you. I have had no problem doing the things people say can't be done and have been combining what I know with SERE training I can get from people such as yourself and gained much from the exchange. Many of these guys are right in that they won't make it but completly wrong that no one else can or will. I drill weekly and have developed a 4 season kit for Alaska I know I can live with indefinately as long as I don't get caught and this is where I have tryed to learn all I can from guys trained in SERE methods. 

First is an on person kit (something I learned from my SERE friends)

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I use LBE so arguements that you have to carry a ton of crap. I have several kits ranging in weight from 4 to 10 pounds in different locations. The smallest kit is mainly a get home bag but I could make it with just the contents in it.

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I have also set up my pack board with similar equipment as part of my base camp gear at another level of survival.

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Training drills is something I was encouraged to do by my SERE friends and I do it weekly to be prepared to do it in any kind of weather and at night too. Full gear at night and -35.

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While it is true harvesting food at proper times and storing for later use makes survival easier I include food gathering in my drills at the worst times. The dead of winter is as bad as it gets. Typical of the things I do training.

The inner bark of spruce trees is best harvested in early summer but can scrape together nourishment with a knife. 

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I walked a bit further and found some rose hips. Good in soups or tea.

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About that time I heard a squirel and went looking for it and came across its tracks.

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They led to a tree with a lot of cone cuttings one the ground. A squirel has about an acre of territory and will have several nests in the area but at this point the odds are good.

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I stepped back to have a better view and sure enough there he was. He's in the bottom of center of picture and and easy shot with hand gun.

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I prefer handguns but means getting closer to make the shot. I followed some moose tracks and got close. This is the type terrain I would take it in also. Heavy trees for my protection and lots of brush for covert harvesting. 44 subsonic loads would handle the job at this range.

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This one kill could feed me all winter and I can build a rough cabin in a few days and start building another life but if I had had to keep moving I would head for the coast where I was raised and I would be eating like a king. Any one that says these things can't be done have a lot to learn and to be able to do it in a time of of war or other social upheaval guys like me appreciate the knowledge of SERE trained people. I know, it's never going to happen but if it does you are completely unprepared and if it doesn't I've had some fun playing in the woods.

This is not the first time a new guy I thought would have much to offer has been attacked for not conforming to a specific method of survival. Content should matter more than seniority. Yes, some are nieve but I would not put SERE trained guys in that category. 

bikerweb, I'm sorry I did not see this thread earlier to take a stand with you.

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## randyt

motivation can overcome obstacles.

for sake of disccusion lets look at Bill Moreland, he E&E for thirteen years in some of the harshest envirorments around, northern idaho. He did this with very little preps. He did cache a few things here and there. Most of his supplies he stole. nevertheless 13 years in the wilderness, no simple feat.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

There are 3 principals or combination to meet your needs and achieve this, what you can carry, what you can make or find and knowing what you can live without. The more you can carry the less you will need to find, make or live without. The more you can make or find the less you have to carry or live without. The more you can live without the less you need to carry, find or make. This will vary from one individual to the next. Finding that balance is the challenge.

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## Sourdough

OK, I am going to start a sister thread, as I feel this is an extremely key issue, and this thread not only got off to a bad start (Partly My fault) and has deteriorated into can/can't thunking. Which goes nowhere. I am going to start the thread with Alaskan Survivalist above post.

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## Rick

I like where AS is going with this. My only question is why a bug out scenario (other than the OP asked). Wouldn't the same rules apply to bugging in? At some point supplies will dwindle and you'll be operating in the same way. The only difference is instead of building a cabin you'll already have that task complete.

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## sushidog

I don't think it's a question of can or can't, it's a question of probability. Many things affect this probability: physical conditioning/ age, experience, knowledge of area/bushcraft skills, area of the country, terrain, etc. Of course this probability will drop the longer that one wishes to remain in "stealth mode." I would divide the monthly probability assessment by the number of months in the wild.

If one is alone, this greatly decreases the chance of success. It's been my experience that when things go bad (and they will) they go really bad, and it comes in threes. For instance, one might get sick from exposure to the weather and the stress one is put under in such a situation. Because you are sick you get fatigued, then dizzy, step in a hole, trip and sprain an ankle - or worse. Then your knife slips while cutting a dressing (you're fatigued and in pain) and you end up cutting your hand, so now in addition to all that's going wrong, you need to prevent an infection (without antibiodics, sterile dressings and with just wild herbs for meds) which if it sets in, could be fatal in your weakened state. When it rains it usually pours, then it freezes - and then the lightning starts.  :Wink: 

If one would desire to train for such an outing, I would suggest starting by through hiking the Appalacian Trail. I hiked various portions of the AT through TN and NC, however hiking its entire length is quite a bit different than going a hundred miles or so, even over some rugged, mountainous terain. I have some experience in such matters. I'd say more than most, (but not as much as some here) and I would not attempt such an adventure, even in my youth, without any type or resupply - and certainly not alone. You will wear out your shoes and socks quickly. Straps break. Equipt. fails. You get rashes and stay chafe, not to mention constant blisters in the worse possible spots. You stay wet. Wet skin damages easily. Your meds and spares only last so long. On the surface it seems an insurmountable task, however I'm confident that a small percentage could actually make it, but probably not the ones who think they can. Ultimately I think it will all boil down to luck, amongst the ultra-prepared. That's the way it usually works in combat, and I forsee no significant difference here.

Chip

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## Sourdough

> I like where AS is going with this. My only question is why a bug out scenario (other than the OP asked). Wouldn't the same rules apply to bugging in? At some point supplies will dwindle and you'll be operating in the same way. The only difference is instead of building a cabin you'll already have that task complete.


I don't see it as a "BUG'OUT scenario. I look at just like living where and how I live. I was not sure that I could do it, at 60'ish. I don't have to live how I do, but it is nice to know that I can. I see the next step as 60 days (May & June) Alaska living alone on the move (about 10 miles per day) living off the fish and game. Then the next step would be 180 Days (April 12 to October 12'th). I am very clear that I would die if I went much beyond the 180 days described, mostly because of lack of food, extreme cold, and lacking the mental endurance at this point in my life.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> I don't see it as a "BUG'OUT scenario. I look at just like living where and how I live. I was not sure that I could do it, at 60'ish. I don't have to live how I do, but it is nice to know that I can. I see the next step as 60 days (May & June) Alaska living alone on the move (about 10 miles per day) living off the fish and game. Then the next step would be 180 Days (April 12 to October 12'th). I am very clear that I would die if I went much beyond the 180 days described, mostly because of lack of food, extreme cold, and lacking the mental endurance at this point in my life.


My father gave me some advice that has worked for me and I think would be good for you too. "If you are going to survive in the Alaskan wilderness find yourself a native gal to take care of you".

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## doug1980

I doubt anyone is.  Besides if I'm gonna be gone for a year than it won't be a bug out, it will be a relocation.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Surviving a year may be be too difficult. Can you survive a day? Just do that 365 times.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I have gone out with lots of people looking for gold. It usually goes like this. Just about everybody makes the first 2 weeks just fine. Then reality begins to set in. Digging and sifting for gold is work. All thier gear is getting sopping wet, wearing the same clothes the knees are ripping out of thier pants and shoe laces are breaking and for some reason most of them quit shaving, bathing and washing thier clothes. About a third of the people make it past that then when things break down most are easily disheartened and run back to town but that will not always be an option. When the ground begins to freeze mining is hopeless but also the option to return to town is not so good. Most likely you don't have enough money to set yourself up in town and seasonal layoffs means nobody is hiring so you dig in for winter. 

I get three things from this.

Maintaining yourself and your gear is very important. Take this to heart and begin to to do the things you do to maintain your gear when you return from your trips in the field. '

Don't try phycing yourself up or get depressed. Don't think about, just do it!

And you'll be amazed what you can do when you have no other option. 

That's the reality of it in my experience not which knife you have or gun you choose.

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## bikerweb

With recent events concerning Bin Laden being killed, I was wondering if my point could be re-visited? Bin Laden was the badguy plain and simple. But he did successfully bug out for over a year. Yes he had contacts running supplies in and out. But who is to say you dont have your own good ol' boy network in the rural area you live. The idea was to keep moving and staying in unbelievably remote areas. Guess he got complacent and tired of living in caves. Thats what got him killed. If he woulda stayed moving and in caves I think he woulda died of old age. 
My point is,there are situations that require permanent bug out.
Anyone wanna share their ideas for a light weight pack say about 3-day size. Your bug out must consist of long term survival equip.
The idea is, the best kit you could have is, will to survive, education, and the ability to adapt and overcome.
The items in the bag are just an accessory to your mind.

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## crashdive123

> With recent events concerning Bin Laden being killed, I was wondering if my point could be re-visited? Bin Laden was the badguy plain and simple. But he did successfully bug out for over a year. Yes he had contacts running supplies in and out. But who is to say you dont have your own good ol' boy network in the rural area you live. The idea was to keep moving and staying in unbelievably remote areas. Guess he got complacent and tired of living in caves. Thats what got him killed. If he woulda stayed moving and in caves I think he woulda died of old age. 
> My point is,there are situations that require permanent bug out.
> Anyone wanna share their ideas for a light weight pack say about 3-day size. Your bug out must consist of long term survival equip.
> The idea is, the best kit you could have is, will to survive, education, and the ability to adapt and overcome.
> The items in the bag are just an accessory to your mind.


He didn't bug out.  He built a million dollar plus compound and hired people to do things for him.  He most likely paid off military and government officials - he was rather wealthy after all.

Could you please explain what situations you envision that would require a "permanent bug out"?  Are you talking about a situation like the recent tornadoes where everything is destroyed and you have to start over?  Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I use the term indefinate because no one would want to live like this any longer than they had to and begin building a life again. No telling how long that would take and try to include as much as I can to start over. I would quickly transition from bugging out to homesteading when I found a safe place.

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## bikerweb

@ crashdive123....  My point exactly. He got caught because he was spoiled and couldnt hide in caves anymore. I think if he woulda stayed in caves and bounced around more he would still be out there.

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## BENESSE

The only case I remember of a long term bug out is by one of our own terrorist scumbags--the fugitive Eric Rudolph (on FBI' most wanted list) who was ultimately caught.

Many stories have been written about him and a few mocumentaries done along the way but this article is fascinating on many levels and there's something to be gleaned from it.

*How did Eric Rudolph survive?*
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0604/p01s02-usju.html

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## Alaskan Survivalist

The ones that got away don't make the news. I knew lots of people hiding out in the woods to avoid the draft back in the 60's. Many hippies were modivated to join the "Back to the Land" movement.

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## crashdive123

> @ crashdive123....  My point exactly. He got caught because he was spoiled and couldnt hide in caves anymore. I think if he woulda stayed in caves and bounced around more he would still be out there.


I guess you are missing my point all together.  It seems that in your scenario you are envisioning a fugitive from the law?  Sorry dude.  Not very realistic scenario IMO.  If you have something else in mind, then please explain.  There is, IMO, a huge difference in bugging out and evading authorities.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Crash, one scenario I can think of is war that has displaced millions throughout history turning them into refugees that are not welcomed in the lands they would flee to.

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## Rick

You're kind of short on lands to flee to but Canada welcomes just about everyone, eh? Throw in a couple six packs of Molson Canadian and they'll look the other way when you cross the border.

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## crashdive123

> Crash, one scenario I can think of is war that has displaced millions throughout history turning them into refugees that are not welcomed in the lands they would flee to.


I suppose that is one scenario, but it doesn't mean you will be a refugee.  Like so many that fled Nazi Germany and took up arms with the Allies during WWII.  The reason for my question is that in the OP the question was posed about a BOB that is normally designed for a 72 hour stay away from your base, and could you turn that into a permanent stay away.  Then the scenario evolved into evading police, enemy forces, and now becoming a refugee.  I know that you view everything through a doom and gloom lens, but I just don't see a likely scenario (other than the destruction and loss of everything) and was curious what the OP envisioned.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

It boils down to how we percieve things. I read the OP as to mean why aren't more kits geared long term *INSTEAD* of mostly 3 day kits. I don't see it as doom and gloom...just time to pay the check. I did have a good time while it lasted. I see more doom and gloom in those that cannot bear to look at even the possibility. There is one eventuality that awaits us all. Our only choice is how we meet that fate.

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## iacchus

I've read most of the comments on this thread and am wondering why this hasnt been mentioned or brought up (apologize if its in the wrong location, but I only posted because of the initial topic): Wouldn't a natural event such as the Yellowstone caldera, grid outtage, levee or dam faults or a high magnitude earthquake be a more realistic scenario for survival?

Also, wouldn't each event offer somewhat different survival techniques dependant upon location? Such events would isolate many and depending on season, could greatly effect the, "it'll never happen in my lifetime" people the most (I think they are called metro-sexuals). 

Granted, it is possible that if a natural, catastrophic event does occur, our enemies could take advantage of our weakened state, but arent such events what our ancestors 'survived' thru by knowing the terrain & surrounding environments so they could survive? Again I apologize if I mis-understood, thats what I got from bikerweb's initial 1yr bug out question.

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## crashdive123

> It boils down to how we percieve things. I read the OP as to mean why aren't more kits geared long term *INSTEAD* of mostly 3 day kits. I don't see it as doom and gloom...just time to pay the check. I did have a good time while it lasted. I see more doom and gloom in those that cannot bear to look at even the possibility. There is one eventuality that awaits us all. Our only choice is how we meet that fate.


It's not that others cannot bear to look at even the possibility, but rather (IMO) focusing their (my) energy on what is more probable.  I agree with you that it all boils down to how we perceive things.  My doom and gloom comment was based on a statement that you made some time ago that you view everything from a doom and gloom perspective.

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## crashdive123

Hey there iacchus - how about making your way over to the Introduction section and telling us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> It's not that others cannot bear to look at even the possibility, but rather (IMO) focusing their (my) energy on what is more probable.  I agree with you that it all boils down to how we perceive things.  My doom and gloom comment was based on a statement that you made some time ago that you view everything from a doom and gloom perspective.


I believe I said I see things from a "Doomers" perspective. It's a slang term For those that believe in Peak Oil and that our over reliance on petrolium will lead to famine and economic collapse. 

I used to try to figure which events were most probable until I realized that my responce to ALL of them is self reliance.

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## hunter63

> . ..................I used to try to figure which events were most probable until I realized that my responce to ALL of them is self reliance.


That's kinda where I'm at as well........Great Quote.

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## crashdive123

I certainly can't argue with people becoming more self reliant.

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## BENESSE

Self reliance and adaptability have to be the price of admission, IMO. 
It's at the core of everything I believe and do.

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## Sourdough

> I believe I said I see things from a "Doomers" perspective. It's a slang term For those that believe in Peak Oil and that our over reliance on petrolium will lead to famine and economic collapse. 
> 
> I used to try to figure which events were most probable until I realized that my responce to ALL of them is self reliance.



I trust My Government to take care of me.

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## bikerweb

The point isnt why you would have to be on the move for a year. Its not re-location as some have called it because youre not re-locating to another spot. You keep moving. What gear would you bring if that was the way you needed to spend a year?

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## BENESSE

Speaking only for myself, I'd need to know more about the circumstances that would compel me to bug out--as I would in "real" life. One doesn't just pick up, move and keep on moving for a year in a vacuum.

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## Sourdough

> The point isnt why you would have to be on the move for a year. Its not re-location as some have called it because youre not re-locating to another spot. You keep moving. What gear would you bring if that was the way you needed to spend a year?



WHY don't you tell us...................what you would take........?

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Comparing gear lists is as fruitless an excersise as is sharing knowledge to some degree. I doubt I'll find any agreement on this and it is based solely on my experience. I had a resent conversation with a young friend new to Alaska but an active outdoorsman who was quite pleased with all he was learning and I felt compelled to correct him, "It's not what you are learning but what you are becoming". Just as the sculpter sees the statue within the stone nature will provide all your need...you need only see it. I see this quality in some that have no experience and others on the path to discovering it within them and some that never will and always be handicaped by it. BTW...my young friend saw it plain as day.

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## SARKY

OK, here goes!    A years worth of food (based on the Mormon calculator) weighs 531 lbs. . This doesn't include a grain mill as much of the food listed are whole grains. So provided you have this food cached in several places and provided there is plenty of drinkable water available (ie. not salt water or contaminated with something your filter or boiling can't kill or be rid of). You are back down to carrying a BOB on your back to get from cache to cache. You moght want to build more permanent shelters near each cache as a tent is going to get pretty beat up during that year of continious use. Use the BLISS method for the shelters (Blend in, Low in siloutte, irregular in shape, small, survivable). I have also done the math on ammo. Granted any hunting or dipatching of critters in a snare or trap for the cook pot will be between 1 and 3 rounds of .22lr a day , that is only 365 to 1095 rounds for the year or less than 2 of the 550 round boxes of .22lr ammo. If you have to deal with a fire fight you're going to need a lot more ammo in larger calibers and you simply won't be able to carry it around with you, so this will have to be cached as well. Not to mention spare parts for you firearm/s, spare firearms incase yours goes permanently down (or is lost in a canoeing accident). Replenishment supplies for your first-aid kit, a spare sleeping bag, clothes, soap, tooth paste and brushes. Women, don't forget your feminine hygene products. and on and on. What I am saying is, unless you can make everything you will need to survive a year in the boonies from the resources available, you will have to preposition them because you won't be able to carry then all on your back when you step out the door. 
While we're at it, how about I ask this question..... How long can you BUG-IN? given your supplies and the neighborhood you live in? Take into account not just food and water(can you replenish water if you can't get it out of the faucet?) but also fuel for warmth and cooking, defending your place from scavengers, refugees and gangs, and growing a survival garden.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Thats a good list of how you should not go about it and has no bearing on the feasability of the task. I can tell you how not to do everything.

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## bikerweb

I was thinking of a good 3 day pack, a fishing kit, fire striker, hammock, poncho, and a water filter. The water filter is one of the most important to me. So I would bring 4 or 5 filters. That would give alot of water. Mabey even rig it so you can replace the charcoal yourself.That would make an indefinate filter. A nice size bag of salt for cooking. You cant really wast space in an extended pack with food. medical kit with antibiotics. Any other items?

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## BENESSE

Is that your kit for one year on the move...to where?

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## Sourdough

> Is that your kit for one year on the move...to where?


From hotel "A" to Hotel "B"..............To Hotel "C"

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## Rick

I think you'd be lucky to make to the edge of town with that set up.

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## BENESSE

Bikerweb, what perplexes me a little about your 3 day pack set-up is that you say your background is military. You should know better, IMO.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> I was thinking of a good 3 day pack, a fishing kit, fire striker, hammock, poncho, and a water filter. The water filter is one of the most important to me. So I would bring 4 or 5 filters. That would give alot of water. Mabey even rig it so you can replace the charcoal yourself.That would make an indefinate filter. A nice size bag of salt for cooking. You cant really wast space in an extended pack with food. medical kit with antibiotics. Any other items?


My kit is very similar with subtle differences. The kinds of things that may suit personal use or a particular environment. I boil questionable water. I do like filters in other situations. I carry Swiss army stove because it reduces the amount of wood needed to cook and makes fire building easier. I modified my poncho by drilling out the grommets that join ponchos together. Lighter and rolls up tighter. I also tied bungee like cord into pieces of paracord for quick set up. I practice various sets continously developing speed and comfort of shelter. A net is all I need for fishing but that would be strictly for survival kit since thier use would be illegal in most situations. I carry a field guide for foraging but if I knew it better I would not have to carry the book. I'm sure you have some kind of tool like a knife or hatchet just forgot to mention it. Clothing was the part I spent the most effort developing. It's my first line of defense against the elements and replaces the tent, sleeping bag and fire and lightens load so much I don't need to carry a pack further lightening load. At -50 below I'm wearing all my clothing but its layered and have a stuff sack to carry extra clothing when warmer. Good clothing limits the need for fire to just cooking, purifying water and drying clothes that can be done under tarp with a fire next to it even in the rain. I still carry my umbrella to get out of the weather instantly and stay dry. 

To carry much more than just the basics becomes a burden and I think most will be tossing all kinds of things when they have to carry it all the time.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> I think you'd be lucky to make to the edge of town with that set up.


Thats why I carry "Charmed" items with me and maybe why indigenous people believe in magic?

Luck is about more than just changing the odds.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Bikerweb, what perplexes me a little about your 3 day pack set-up is that you say your background is military. You should know better, IMO.


I suspect with name like Bikerweb he's added to military experience riding and survivng from one hangover to next with just a change of clothes and a 44 wrapped in a sleeping bag strapped to his handle bars. I know we share some kind of common experience and it's not military service.

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## bikerweb

Oh my god people! Has no one read the "what else" part of my post??? Jeeze.

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## Rick

There was a "what else" part? Well, I guess not then. Speakin' of what else. It's gonna be mighty hard for you to sleep in that bag if it's strapped to your handlebars.

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## bikerweb

Someone help me understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. To be on the move for an extended amount of time you would only take items that wont be used up. Like a fire steel. It will last for a very long time before wearing out. Had mine for years, use it all the time. Still has years of use left. I chose filters because its on the go potable water. Boiling takes time and fuel. I am truely amazed that this topic isnt being taken seriously on a wilderness survival board. Wow.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Someone help me understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. To be on the move for an extended amount of time you would only take items that wont be used up. Like a fire steel. It will last for a very long time before wearing out. Had mine for years, use it all the time. Still has years of use left. I chose filters because its on the go potable water. Boiling takes time and fuel. I am truely amazed that this topic isnt being taken seriously on a wilderness survival board. Wow.


Some things will be used up that can be enjoyed a long time while you have them so I don't set a strick limit on that I just know my load will get lighter in the future. It can take ten minutes to boil water but it can then be poured into canteen if needed to be used instantly at a later time. That's a personal choice. I also drink all the water I can when I come across it because the easiest way to carry water is in you. There are plenty of on topic posts you just have to filter the rest like your water. You're just lucky Rick has not shown up in a thong!

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## BENESSE

> Someone help me understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. To be on the move for an extended amount of time you would only take items that wont be used up. Like a fire steel. It will last for a very long time before wearing out. Had mine for years, use it all the time. Still has years of use left. I chose filters because its on the go potable water. Boiling takes time and fuel. I am truely amazed that this topic isnt being taken seriously on a wilderness survival board. Wow.


I guess we're either slow learners or we're not getting where you're coming from. Why don't you enlighten us. YOU tell us "what else" you'd carry other than what you listed. This isn't Ferris Bueller's Day Off--anyone else...anyone else...?
Let's not play 20 questions and just cut to the chase, man

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## Rick

Most of us don't believe that we're going to be on the move for 1 year or 6 months for that matter. You tossed out a pretty vague scenario. Take a look at this and you'll understand why most aren't playing. 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...rio-Check-List

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## Alaskan Survivalist

When he said a kit for summer and winter and referenced to a year I made the leap and assumed he was not talking about Hawaii. I have developed such a 4 season kit not so much that I feel I will have to go through all 4 seasons before I find refuge or at least a place to hold up but mainly because I don't know what time of year I may need to use it or how long I'll have to rely on this kit. Once I find a place to stay I will have a cabin built, a few hundred pounds of fish and a moose hanging by the end of the week. How long will it take to find such a place? I certainly hope it doesn't take a year!

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## hunter63

> Someone help me understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. To be on the move for an extended amount of time you would only take items that wont be used up. Like a fire steel. It will last for a very long time before wearing out. Had mine for years, use it all the time. Still has years of use left. I chose filters because its on the go potable water. Boiling takes time and fuel. I am truely amazed that this topic isnt being taken seriously on a wilderness survival board. Wow.


I guess I question the fesibility of getting by on these mimium supplies for such a long period of time, and being on the move.....So what are you plans for food along the way?

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## LowKey

Weird game.
Do you have people who will help you?
Can you cache supplies and come back to them while being on the move?
Are you competing for food and other essentials with hundreds or thousands of other hungry people or are you alone in the wilderness world? And after what kind of calamity.

AS has skills many of us don't have and even he is saying he would find a place to build a cabin, or a semi-permanent shelter anyway, within that year.

Even in the movie you were so enamored of, _Defiance_, the people dug in for the winter.

My gran used to tell of the railroad hobos who stopped by here place, men who were on the road year after year. They travelled a circuit and through the marks along the way knew where they could do a little work for a couple dollars or where the nice lady lived who would give them a sandwich and a soda on the back porch in return for a little yard work or wood splitting. They had caches and meeting places and would look out for each other on the road. 

Most of the indigenous peoples had communities, but they lived without 're-supply' while on the move from camp site to camp site. But they had a vast, sparsely populated land to do that in.

This can't be argued in a vacuum. 
I get the impression Bikerweb just wants people to post lists to be trashed or dissected since he doesn't want to post his own complete list. Which I'm sure he has.

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## bikerweb

Lowkey...Not looking to trash anyones list. Was just looking to get ideas. Thats all. I gave so little info because each person has their own ideas. I was looking forward to the differences in packs. Thats all. 
Tactics are as important as the bag itself. I agree in winter a person would need to build a cabin or some type of shelter. That is if they have found a spot to hide from the dangers theyre running from. Taking a different path to and from each time to not be tracked. Setting up an early warning system.
Posts are gettin more interesting. Thank you all.

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## crashdive123

@bikerweb - take a look at the link that Rick gave you in post #151.  I really believe that you will receive more targeted or "on target" responses if you provide a little more specifics about the situation you are seeking info on.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Since I think most are in agreement on the basics I'll take a shot at the "what else". Alaska has two basic environments, wet and cold. This can make building fires difficult especially above the tree line or on glaciers or other treeless areas buried in snow. A person should be able to build fires under any circumstances even by primitive means if needed. The Swiss Army stove is my choice for extended survival because it uses such a small amount of wood that dry wood can be carried in your pocket into barren areas and since the fuel is supplied by nature it's good for extended use in the field and lighter. *BUT*...In the dead of winter I have a modular upgrade to my kit that makes life much easier.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

On the move I rely more on clothing than fire and shelter and nothing works better to warm me up on trail than a cup of hot coffee or soup that can be prepared quickly with folding propane stove. There's no better way to build a fire in the Arctic than with a torch and may need to be done quickly in emergencies. All this fits in the MOLLE pouch that can be attached anywhere. When used for cooking a canister will last about a week for me. If used just for building fires can last well over a month. If used just when absolutely needed and relying on other means most of the time could last through the winter. I have a smaller kit that uses butane canisters that is lighter just not as proven in the field.

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## Rick

What kind of stove is that?

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I seem to recall it was a Primus. I tried looking it up but I don't think they make this model any more. I've had it 20 years. While I was looking for though I found another butane torch I think would be better than my Snow Peak Butane torch for building fires. It looks smaller and probably produces smaller flame that would make fuel canister last longer. 


http://www.primuscamping.com/product.php?id=162

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## Sourdough

This is how you would do it in Alaska, or how I would do it in Alaska. Note: 41 years ago we had a bear hunting operation at the head of Cripple Creek, and often operated in the next valley "Indian Creek".  

L. J. Palmer, a biologist tells us in his 1938 report that:
"Andrew Berg came into the Tustumena Lake country in 1890. At the present time he has his headquarters cabin at the mouth of Indian Creek. Scattered around the Lake he has a total of eleven relay cabins, which are used in running trap lines."

Bikerweb, I have a plan for line-cabins that look like a long doghouse, 3' wide, 7' long, 3' high. Then all that matters is be where there is lots of game, few humans, and learn to eat anything that "Walks, Talks, Swims, Crawls, or Flies".

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## Rick

Hey, Phil - You're a stove man. Have you ever seen AS's stove above? I've never seen one like it although I really like the idea behind it. Coleman and others make a one burner stove for LPG/Propane but they are pretty large, not small and compact like that one.

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## Rick

Well, I've had no luck find an LPG camp stove so I went the other way. Primus makes a 450g tank with a Lindal valve that you can use most butane stoves with. My Pocketrocket should fit it just fine. Looks like they retail for around $10 and will boil about 30L of waters. 

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/ca...cat=292&page=1

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## crashdive123

My micro stoves are fitted for the butane canisters.  I think Walmart has some small single burner stoves that fit the small propane canisters (I'll check).   Found this one on-line http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys...id=207442&fp=F

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## Sourdough

> My Pocketrocket should fit just fine.


In your dreams................Hehehehehehe

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I looked the stove over again with my glasses on and there is not a single manufacturers mark on it. Not even the country it was made in. I don't know how I end up with so many weird things. I once had an International truck they denied they made!

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## crashdive123

> I looked the stove over again with my glasses on and there is not a single manufacturers mark on it. Not even the country it was made in. I don't know how I end up with so many weird things. I once had an International truck they denied they made!


You didn't buy it from the same guy that sells Gucci Handbags and Rolex Watches on the corner of 42nd and Broadway did you?

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## bikerweb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w5ZP...rec_grec_index
Stumbled across this. This proves my point. That guy spent 30 years on the run. His scenerio is exactly what I was trying to convey. Have a look at the vid, all you ney sayers that said it couldnt be done!

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## Sourdough

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w5ZP...rec_grec_index
> Stumbled across this. This proves my point. That guy spent 30 years on the run. His scenerio is exactly what I was trying to convey. Have a look at the vid, all you ney sayers that said it couldnt be done!


Do some research, they stole livestock, they stole food from peoples homes, they killed locals, for food, tools, weapons. I don't think they could pull it off in the Arctic at -47*

Hell, Tom Hanks did it also.   Hehehehehe

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## randyt

Actually I mentioned the japanese soldiers on page two of this thread.

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## crashdive123

Bikerweb - we just had a long forum discussion on how some of the newer members are treated.  I am doing my best at being patient.  You say that you purposely left your scenario vague because people have different ideas.  While this is true, it is my belief that if you are truly searching for answers for your scenario you would be better served with a more specific scenario.  You will still get the different opinions from those on the forum, but the responses might be more helpful.

Here's an example of what I mean. If one of our Alaska members talk about requirements for movement and survival during the seasons of Alaska it may mean very little to you.  Resources are vastly different, laws are different and sparse population densities are vastly different from where you are posting from.  If I go through what it would take in Florida - again, vastly different.

Again - if you want meaningful answers - help us help you.

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## mosquitomountainman

I haven't read every post in this thread so if I repeat information please cut me some slack.  I just watched Les Stroud and Sue Jamison's DVD, _Snowshoes and 
Solitude_.  They didn't sugar-coat anything and showed the trips back to civilization and documented many of the problems they faced.  They pulled it off though but without some medical attention it might have been different.  In ancient cultures to be banished from a tribe was often a death sentance and these were people who knew wilderness survival.  I know one man and wife who lived a year in a teepee in the wilderness and provided most everything they needed from what they trapped, hunted, foraged and fished for.  Others have also done it.  The main thing to remember is that it wasn't so much what they carried in their packs as what they carried between their ears.  "Nature" can supply everything you need to survive if you know how to find and use it.  My advice wouldn't center on what you carried but on what you know and what you've done.  

While in the desert in Southern Nevada we spent a lot of time researching and experimenting with native skills and lifestyles.  (And spent hours digging out those tiny little spines from beavertail cactus to prove it.) They led a very basic existence and quite frankly did some things that few of us would do even if our life depended upon it.  (In one case to get a type of seeds that were difficult to remove from the plants, they ate the plants and everyone took a dump in the same location then the next year they dug through the pile to harvest the seeds.)  They lived a totally stone age existence.  With a careful selection of steel tools and the knowledge they had a person would have life easier than they did but it would still be a lot of work.  Where we live the Indians migrated south to friendlier places in winter.  

My concern is more whether you've had any training or experience in the life you're proposing.  It will vary considerably according to where and when you begin your adventure.  If you haven't done anything like this take some short trips first to prepare yourself better.  We recently spent about ten weeks living in our homemade camper in the Nevada desert.  It was good practice too and we found that we could easily carry enough food to see us through for six months or longer based on our experience this winter/spring.  As we found out, the diet got a little boring at times but we sure never went hungry.  

We have a neighbor who did a lot of living off the land last year due to lack of employment/money.  He survived okay but his diet was about the same every day (fish) for several weeks.  We invited him over for meals but he's a proud, extremely self-reliant man and would not accept.  He would do some trading for eggs and garden produce so we did some bartering to help vary his diet. Until you've lived like he did or seen someone who has you have no idea how much eggs, potatoes and carrots, rhubarb, onions and rutabagas can be appreciated.

Have you done anything - even for short periods - like you're inquiring about here?  

Steve

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## Alaskan Survivalist

As I have said before you need to find, make or bring the necessities with you or some combination. The big advantage to traveling is how it increases the things you find. I'm surprized not more people have found themselves homeless, pennyless and without hope at some point in thier lives. I've been there half a dozen times and it's happened to most everybody I know at least once. The thing is only the losers stay that way and most find enough resources to get established again in short order. It's the same no matter where you are. Fierce determination is what you need and will overcome all the failures along the way.

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## randyt

Here's a interesting article I stumbled upon that goes along with this thread somewhat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Blackjack

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## Sourdough

> Here's a interesting article I stumbled upon that goes along with this thread somewhat.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Blackjack


Interesting read, thanks.

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## EdD270

> Most Bob's I see are no longer than 72 hour. Anyone see defiance? The scenerio is you have to bug out permanantly. Go through summer and winter. Keep on the move and lightweight. How would you do this? What would you pack? I havent seen anyone do a Bob for this yet.


BOBs are just for short term survival. Survival is where you use your skills and preps to stay alive until help comes or the conditions improve to allow you to return home. Any BOB that is only good for 72 hours is not enough. 72 hours generally gets you half way through the emergency.
On the other hand, for long term you are not surviving, you are just living life in different circumstances. Often MUCH different. You won't ever be going back to the previous mode of life style, but the current situation is permanent and you either adapt or don't. Wildernenss living, like the Indians and mountain men did, is far different from mere wilderness survival. Same for urban environments.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

[QUOTE=EdD270;299616]BOBs are just for short term survival.QUOTE]

 Bug Out Bags are just that, what you are bugging out with in a bag. How did you arrive at your conclusion that they could only be for 72 hours?

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## crashdive123

> Bug Out Bags are just that, what you are bugging out with in a bag. How did you arrive at your conclusion that they could only be for 72 hours?


72 hour kit is the common name that is often assigned to "bug out bag".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug-out_bag

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## Alaskan Survivalist

!'ve never been much for 72 hour kits and hate to see the "Bug Out" concept destroyed by trendy terminology but popular belief trumps everthing. Interesting to see the things that remain important to folks in these times even to thier own detriment. 

My whatever kind of kit you want to call it is designed to cut the ties and dependency with civilization. Time is irrelevent to that.

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## crashdive123

True - but most don't take the same approach to "bugging out" as you do.  Maybe it is to their (my) detriment - time will tell.

I'll add - there is nothing wrong with your approach (I know you were not looking for approval) if that is what you believe you will need.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> True - but most don't take the same approach to "bugging out" as you do.  Maybe it is to their (my) detriment - time will tell.
> 
> I'll add - there is nothing wrong with your approach (I know you were not looking for approval) if that is what you believe you will need.


Absolutely. That's why I was surprized to learn that BOB's only refered to 72 hour kits. Some people are just heading out the door with ammo in thier bag. Others may be traveling to a predetermined location and have gear specific to hiking and climbing. It seems a severe limitation to limit yourself to the tube tents, wire saws, space blankets, bottled water, plastic whistles, and the other kinds of things I've seen in such kits. It would seem that with such kits your days are numbered.

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## randyt

maybe in some cases it should be called a sustainability bag.

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## crashdive123

I may be wrong, but I believe that when it became chic to have a BOB, businesses saw an opportunity to expand on and take advantage of a burgeoning market.  Calling it a 72 hour kit not only made it marketable, but popularized the notion (as pushed by some governmental agencies) that you need to have at least a three day supply of food, water and "stuff".

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> I may be wrong, but I believe that when it became chic to have a BOB, businesses saw an opportunity to expand on and take advantage of a burgeoning market.  Calling it a 72 hour kit not only made it marketable, but popularized the notion (as pushed by some governmental agencies) that you need to have at least a three day supply of food, water and "stuff".


That makes sense. 3 days seems like a reasonable amount of time for FEMA Camps to get into position and stocked. Survival is likely, just not a position I want to find myself in.

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## crashdive123

Guess I should move this to the Joke of the Day thread. :Innocent:

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## hunter63

Well, y'all can think what you want....I do have the luxury of have at least 72 hrs worth of "stuff" ready...at least for most normal situations.
Sustained fire fight with Zombie, biker hordes, tweakers and such not so much...say nothing of long lost free-loading relatives who's food and batteries have run out,.... hopefully I can get by, long enough to figure out the rest.

Year on the run........don't think so, even the truck can't carry that much.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I have one kit that will fit in the back of my car that includes a years supply of freeze dried food. Frame tent, wood stove, lanterns, cook stove, cot, -35 bag and 3 inch foam pad and much more. All I would have to do for a year would be cut firewood. 

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## BENESSE

> I have one kit that will fit in the back of my car that includes a years supply of freeze dried food. Frame tent, wood stove, lanterns, cook stove, cot, -35 bag and 3 inch foam pad and much more. All I would have to do for a year would be cut firewood. 
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


That's really impressive. I understand it, and I appreciate it. But it it so far removed from where I am and what I can do, that it's tough to relate on a meaningful level. It's just how it is--I am realistic about the lay of the land. Can't expect the polar bear to have the same resources as the grizzly. I only hope when push comes to shove we all do our part to survive and keep the integrity of this great land of ours--every corner, coast to coast is special to me and it's worth preserving. Someone's got to keep the city's lights on, and someone's got to keep the heartland's heart ticking.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Some people just try to have security farther into the future than others. Are you living from paycheck to paycheck, have a 5-year economic plan or set for life? I'm sure that each and everyone of you will struggle each and everyday to survive despite the conjecture. You know you would. Whether you think you can or not will not matter when you have no other choice. It is easier to get through life or survival by planing ahead. Time is significant in the setting of the sun, the change of seasons, wildlife migrations and the tide. Prepare for these things and throw the calender away.

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## MaineBear

> There is no options but to be completely independent. You must carry on your back everything you need.


The average person cannot do this for the length of time you require with no outside intervention. There are simply too many variables at stake - weather, terrain, time of year started (defines forage), minimum travel speed required (which defines weight of pack, etc), health needs of individual, calories needed, etc. The real killer is the need to stay mobile and not set roots. If you could build even a semi permanent structure then you can get away with a 50# pack including a rifle and pistol and last a month (or possibly more, I haven't tried) comfortably.

This is what I carry when I head up to the mountains in the summer:

Into a Duluth or Granite gear pack (depends on if you like old school or new)
 3 pair tube socks
 3 pair cotton underwear
 2 tshirts
 1 flannel button-up (hooded and quilted if it's early spring and still cold)
 1 pair of cargo pants
 1 waterproof poncho (because every fat man looks good in a poncho)
 2" Barr Quarton framing chisel with wooden maul
 Single bit Michigan axe (strapped on the outside)
 Gransfors Broad axe (optional if weight gets to be too much)
 T-handle auger with 1" and 1.5" bits
 6 large rat traps (yes, the cheap bar and spring kind. great on small game trails - just anchor them down)
 1 can of tang (I hate this ****, but it's good vitamin c and breaks up the monotony)
 7 days worth of canned food (2500 calories/day), you could use MRE instead of canned if you like that stuff
 1 bar of dove soap (for washing and laundry)
 2 rolls of toilet paper (only planning for 30-days, and optional if you can deal with leaves and bark)
 1/2lb of salt
 1 can black pepper
 3# freeze dried coffee grounds (you could substitute tea bags if you prefer)
 First aid kit (assorted band aids, bacitracin, ace bandage, lots of aspirin)
 100' paracord
 Summer weight quilted sleeping bag (I don't sleep out in the winter, this would be fine weight inside a heated enclosure)
 A dozen or so gallon sized zip-lock bags (to store whatever you forage)

Outside the pack:
 1 pair tube socks
 1 pair cotton underwear
 1 tshirts
 1 flannel button-up (hooded and quilted if it's early spring and still cold)
 1 pair of cargo pants
 1 pair hiking boots (although not meant for hiking, I prefer Belleville steel toe flight deck boots)
 Oak Harbor waxed cotton hat (great for keeping the sun off, getting a drink of water, or storing berries you pick on the trail)
 6' long walking stick (I use a stick, not some high tech thing with a compass, etc)
 Compass on cord
 Watch - I like the Citizen eco-drive series NO BATTERIES
 Metal Canteen (I used to carry plastic, till I broke it one year and found out how much I rely on a water bottle)
 1851 Colt Navy revolver in cross draw holster
  - 50 rounds, patches, lube, 3f powder, measure, caps, cleaning kit
 .54 caliber Hawken rifle
  - 200 rounds, patches, lube, 3f powder, measure, caps, cleaning kit
 Schrade Bowie with micarta handle (great knife, sheath is crap - you will want to replace it right off) 


Things you might notice I don't carry for my 30-day trek - no heavy weight rope, nothing needing batteries (flashlights, radios, cell phone), very few duplicates (only one canteen and compass). Again, I usually know where I'm going, how long I will stay, what I want to do when I get there, and what challenges I might encounter. With this kit I can build a simple log shelter - I start with a wickiup then spend 3-4 days building something more permanent (eating my canned supplies like mad and anything the traps can bring in) then shift to foraging in a subsistence model for the rest of my stay. 

For longer stays I would need something to preserve or can what I forage. I would also want to start in spring and bring seeds/seedlings with me (lots of root vegetables and green leafy things). I would also need winter clothing (Maine gets darned cold, but not Alaska cold) more ammo for the rifle and some mid size coil spring traps. But that would nearly double the weight and not make it man portable (at least not for me).


Maine Bear

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## bikerweb

Excelent Kit Maine Bear! This is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for.

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## randyt

Mainebear, 

Nice list, I would probably add a billy can of sorts and a pair of leather roper gloves. Maybe a saw of sorts.

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## Josephastill

I have a bug out bag that is designed with one goal in mind, what if the Myans and 12 other ancient societies  are right.? If you have th e right skills and plan properly, you  can easily live indefinatly ( spelling stinks) my emergency  tent will sleep six, it is five times thicker then standard  mylar, and its two ply. I have tested it in minus  25, with strong winds (Wyoming) and I didnt need a blanket and it weighs a megar two pounds. The kit you use is only as good as you are. If you can braintan, or bark, And if you can knap out your own tools, you can bug out as long as you want. Being prepared with  the right arsenal of knowledge is your best bug out bag. Ill post my complete list tomorrow. It weighs around 20 pounds and I could meet all of your requirements. I am not trying to sound pompus, but the more you know, the easier it is to live, not survive, live.

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## sushidog

I would think that calamity bad enough to force one into a wilderness survial situation for an entire year would force many others to do the same. Given that assumption, one would be faced with competition for available resources at best, and hostile aggression at worst. Organizing into small survival groups (ideally networked with other small, autonomous groups) may be one's best chance of survival in such an apocalyptic scenario. If that is the case, it might be prudent to add specialized equipt. to our "bug out gear" to facilitate working in our area of specialty. However the best prep would be prior planning and organization with like minded individuals including communication plans and equipt. purchased and practiced well ahead of time, together with well stocked caches, facilities, etc. located in a variety of possible retreat areas. Remember our military's success is mainly attribited to planning, organization and training with their specialized equipt., so that they are proficient in it's use and everyone functions together as a team. Why reinvent the wheel when we can learn from others and adapt these techniques for our own use.

Chip

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## Rick

What brand is that tent?

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## Sparky93

Thats what I was goin to ask.

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## faber825

one year bug out to me means, essentially, building/looting/stealing enough tools and equipment to set up a permanent base somewhere safe. bug out bags are meant for those with several escape plans. if you don't know where you're trying to go, you're seldom much safer than you'd have been if you stayed. that being said, I'll think up a pack within your rules.

The pack: LL bean mountain guide. it's not military, but it's a tough pack and the fact that it looks like a civilian pack means that I'll be less alarming to anyone I meet. looking like a paramilitary thug is not usually a good thing when dealing with strangers.

1 pair hiking boots
1 pair vibram fivefingers
one 15 degree rated down sleeping bag
one reusable thermal blanket
one wool surplus blanket
1 leatherman charge tti
500 feet of fishing line, at least 20 hooks
one aluminum pot (1 liter or more, with 1/2 pound salt, emergency ration bar, firesteel and waterproof matches stored inside.
2 mora #2s (one in pack, one on neck)
one 6 inch Ka-Bar OR similar size higher end fixed blade.
4 pairs lightweight wool socks
2 pairs heavy wool socks
rain pants (gore tex if possible)
rain jacket
gaiters
smartwool base layer pants and shirt
wool hat
boonie hat treated on outside with waterproofing spray
wool insulating layer (anything from a sweater to a dedicated outdoors insulation layer will do)
Klean Kanteen unpainted 40 oz bottle with climbing grade carabiner on cap
windproof lighter
extra butane
12x12 ripstop nylon tarp, urethane or silicon coated.
150' paracord
50'+ utility/climbing rope
2-3 lb axe
.22/.410 over-under combo 
200 rounds ammo, .22
25 rounds, .410
1 first aid kit
1 bottle amoxicillin 
3 pairs wool or synthetic underwear
1 bottle of camp soap
1 deck of playing cards, waterproof
2 climbing grade carabiners
1 spool wire
hiking stick
whistle
1 roll duct tape
1 copy of Vergil's Aeneid in original latin with footnotes (although not vital, it's nice to have some reading material and this keeps my mind more occupied than any other book)
as many hard candies and energy bars as I can stuff into pockets and remaining pack.


If bugging out in winter (I live in maine and realistically am likely to need all of this in the winter if left without a home), take above and add:
1 pair cross country skis
1 pair ski boots
1 pair ski poles
1 down jacket
1 extra wool layer
1 Anorak style shell
2 extra pairs heavy socks
1 plastic sled (holding most of this extra stuff. can also be pulled behind snowmobile until gas runs out if that's an option at the time)
1 bomber hat
2 pairs wool liner gloves
1 pair midweight gloves
1 pair insulated mitts
1 pair goggles or mountaineering sunglasses
1 pair wool or insulated pants (or both if room in the sled permits)
-20 degree rated sleeping bag
1 shovel/entrenching tool
1 more wool blanket
1 scoped .308, of course with iron sights in case anything should happen to the optics.
40 rounds, .308
1 takedown recurve bow
6 arrows
1 crosman slingshot with 2 replacement bands (you can't beat free ammo)
1 10x20 foot nylon tarp
1 handsaw


general goals: reach safe area (one of several planned safe areas depending on available route), establish camp, stay warm, stay dry, find sustainable water source, find, hunt, fish and grow livable/sustainable food source, make camp as livable and comfortable as possible (thus the playing cards, as I assume I won't be bugging out alone, although it's a possibility)

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## crashdive123

faber825 - your plan, IMO, has a huge flaw.  If your plan includes looting and stealing you are not preparing.  Sorry - haven't looked at your list yet, but wanted to comment on your "plan" to loot and steal.  Bad idea, with potentially deadly consequences IMO.

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## bobzilla

I live at my BOL,and the only prep I'm working on is storing more gas and diesel,with S&P downgrading the U.S. debt tonight,and RBOB gas at 2.80$,I'm gonna wait for the cheaper fuel prices in a couple of weeks.I really would feel sorry for anyone looting or stealing in Parke County,a lot of places to hide bodies........

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## BENESSE

+1 Crash.
faber, if your plan includes looting & stealing you won't be needing all that stuff in your pack. You're not gonna last long enough to use it.

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