# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Making Stuff >  Homemade tinder for survival kit

## AR7

Hi.

I make tinder with coton, vaseline and duct tape. It's easy and cheap, waterproof, unbreakable, soft, and fit everywhere:

Just make a ball with the coton (with some vaseline) and make a "pilow" with the duct tape.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

To use it with a firesteel, just cut the duct tape, rip out some coton, put your firesteel in it, and scratch it...

http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/141/ahi.mp4/

----------


## Sarge47

You realize that your "preaching to the choir, right?     :Mellow:

----------


## AR7

No, I don't. I'm sorry. I just wanted to share an idea  :Mellow:

----------


## Rick

That's one more method of carrying it. Crash has posted using aluminum foil. Do you have any trouble with the adhesive on the tape sticking because of the petroleum jelly? I use a .35mm fim canister but aluminum foil or duct tape is a lot more compact.

----------


## AR7

> Do you have any trouble with the adhesive on the tape sticking because of the petroleum jelly? I use a .35mm fim canister but aluminum foil or duct tape is a lot more compact.


No, I don't. It last months, maybe years...

The problem with the film canister (IMO) is that it don't fit anywhere, and the aluminium foil is weak and not waterproof. I seek a long time a good solution, and the duct tape is the best idea I had.

----------


## tipacanoe

Well now, how about taking the petroleum jelly saturated cotton ball, wrapped in aluminum foil and wrap it in the duct tape. That way it's water proof, won't stick to the tape, and you have a base that is dry to light the fire on.   :Shifty:

----------


## crashdive123

I've thrown the pj soaked cotton balls wrapped in foil in a bucket of water for a couple of hours - removed them - used them - no problems.

Duct tape sounds like a good idea too.

----------


## Rick

Yeah once the cotton balls are soaked in PJ there should be no issue with water proofing regardless of what you use.

----------


## natertot

The picture of the completed ones look like something you can even keep in yout wallet! Okay, I'll stop there.

----------


## crashdive123

> The picture of the completed ones look like something you can even keep in yout wallet! Okay, I'll stop there.


Yeah, but these won't dry rot after years of non-use and still in your wallet. :Innocent:

----------


## Rick

Are we talkin' handkerchiefs?

----------


## natertot

> Are we talkin' handkerchiefs?


Yes, Rick. (Plastic Russling) Here have a Twinkie!

----------


## Zen buds

I use firestarters for a fireplace.  You can buy a big pack of them at most any store. They only cost a couple bucks.  I cut them into sticks that are 2"x1/2"x1/4".  They take a spark pretty easy and burn for about 15 minutes.  They are especially nice to have if all the wood is wet.

----------


## Rick

Do you get any smoke from the duct tape when it burns. I would think that it might be foul smelling but maybe not.

----------


## AR7

Yes! Little smoke and smells bad, but just a small time  :Nod:

----------


## Willie

I use vaccume Sealed bags, the ones for food. Works great!

----------


## gryffynklm

I though the tape is a good idea. I agree with rick, the burning tape will stink until it is consumed by the fire. If I try the duct tape tinder pack I will choose to use the back of the knife to run down the ferorod instead of chopping with the cutting edge.

----------


## Winter

Good idea with the tape AR7.

----------


## SARKY

If you use the duct tape, can you still compress the PJ cotton? Cause I can stuff a lot of PJ cotton in a film canister.

----------


## AR7

Thanks, Winters. 




> If you use the duct tape, can you still compress the PJ cotton? Cause I can stuff a lot of PJ cotton in a film canister.


Yes, of course. The best part of using duct tape is is that you can put your tinder in a very small space, in any survival kit. In mi fire kit I store a lot of vaselined coton in a small ziplock. But it's not the same: My firekit is too big to fit in a survival kit, and I think your film canister too.

My firekit:

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Sarge47

My favorite fire starter is small, individual packs of hand sanitizer and those itty-bitty trick birthday candles that won't go out.     :Cool2:

----------


## Rick

> those itty-bitty trick birthday candles that won't go out.


What do you do with them when you go home?

----------


## hunter63

Wonder how they do that candle not going out thing?

Anyway, duct tape is a good idea, as is the foil, as is a film canister, as in Carmex/lip balm and tissue. running out of room to carry all this fire.

I generally carry a lighter or 7, home made wax and fat-wood sawdust fire starters (not for tinder), cotton/PJ in film canister, candle ends, or votive candles, matches, mag-fire steel, magnifier card (wallet)........and a Zippo....some thing IS gonna burn.

If going going primitive....fire kit...... the flint (rock) and steel with char cloth.....candle ends......and a few lucifer's (old name for matches),fire glass.

----------


## aflineman

I tend to use dryer lint from cotton bath towels, and pitch wood (fatwood) that I collect when I see it (and store for later use). In worse case, I just use a road flare. 

Sarge, I never though of using a hand sanitizer wipe. Thanks for adding another tool to the old toolbox.  :Smile:

----------


## hunter63

+one.... on the road flare....when something really needs to burn.......

----------


## crashdive123

> ....some thing IS gonna burn.....


Quick!  Call the fire department.....again.

----------


## Rick

Yeah. If Hunter says it's gonna burn, trust me, it's gonna burn. Here's an earlier pic of F.A.R.T. fire fighting training. I think Crash is driving and Pal is in the passenger seat. That's actually Crash making the siren. Good ain't he?

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## hunter63

Around here the FD just calls and says....."Now What?"

----------


## nell67

wine corks soaked in rubbing alcohol,burns long enough to start damp wood. I shall never run out of home made firetinder,have several friends who make home made wine,I just have to remember to keep stocked up on the alcohol!

----------


## Ranger F

Pine chip small animal bedding,old cake pan ,everyone's candle stumps, a old coffee pot n single burner stove. Oil or Vaseline the cake pan, fill with pine chips n pour melted wax over. I take it out n chop it into pieces. This works good for the stove at the cabin. Only costs a little time.

----------


## hunter63

> +one.... on the road flare....when something really needs to burn.......


Yeah....gonna burn....
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## cncgirl00

I used large straws called bubble straws for the packs I made today. (I'm new to the forum and survival prepping.) I coated cotton balls with pj, used a skewer to push one into the straw, heated end with lighter, and clamped that together with needle nose pliers. Cut off the other end beyond the cotton ball, clean up excess pj and seal as before.

----------


## Rick

Nothing wrong with that at all. Seems like a bit of work. 35mm film canisters work well too. You can check the photo dept of CVS, Wally World or similar to see if they have some. They generally just through them away. You can get six cotton balls in a canister. Don't forget, you can use the PJ for medical use too on things like hot spots when hiking and chapped lips. So being able to access it is a good thing.

----------


## randyt

I use bag balm instead of petroleum jelly. 


on another note I didn't realize Hunter is a belt AND suspenders type fella.

----------


## Batch

I make up PJ balls in ziplock bags and leave some in the bag and put those in the toolbox of the truck and in the glove box of the UTV.

I also use aluminum foil. But, I have taken to carrying the straws. I think they are neater and easy to use for when you use a lighter. Just light the whole straw. No muss no fuss.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Graf

> I used large straws called bubble straws for the packs I made today. (I'm new to the forum and survival prepping.) I coated cotton balls with pj, used a skewer to push one into the straw, heated end with lighter, and clamped that together with needle nose pliers. Cut off the other end beyond the cotton ball, clean up excess pj and seal as before.


 I've done this for along time and though some think its to much work once it gets wet and still works its worth the extra effort. I also use this technique for first aid ointments, different colors for different oitments and even pills

----------


## hunter63

> I use bag balm instead of petroleum jelly. 
> 
> 
> on another note I didn't realize Hunter is a belt AND suspenders type fella.


Dispatch girl at the last shop I worked for asked the same thing.......
Now mind you....cell phone, shop cell phone, pager, multi tool (may little kit).....flashlight on belt......

Told her, "Well my butt is too small to hold all this stuff up.....she says "Too much information".....She asked?.....

So, yeah belt and suspenders......

----------


## Tokwan

Yep..I usually carry in a 35mm film canister whuich is in my survival kit. However, the ziplock works fine if you wanna carry more. Looks like the cotton ball and vaseline is becoming a natural way now.

----------


## Rick

> once it gets wet and still works its worth the extra effort


PJ and cotton balls work even wet. Try it. PJ is not water soluble.

----------


## Grizz123

> PJ and cotton balls work even wet. Try it. PJ is not water soluble.


I like cotton balls with liquid candle wax, its just as water proof and flammable with much less mess

----------


## Graf

> PJ and cotton balls work even wet. Try it. PJ is not water soluble.


That is correct PJ is not water soluable, have you ever lit wet cotton? Try it.

----------


## crashdive123

> That is correct PJ is not water soluable, have you ever lit wet cotton? Try it.


I have, and while it might not catch a spark, it does light very well with a match or lighter.

----------


## Rick

I have as well. That's why I asked you to try it. Once the cotton is impregnated with PJ then it can be lit and it will burn. The cotton doesn't absorb water because of the PJ.

----------


## Batch

I have as well and posted a video of it a few years back. The PJ kept the cotton dry and I had little problem starting it with a ferro rod.

----------


## MrFixIt

I keep hearing about the cotton/pj balls but have never tried them.
I will try to do one this weekend to see what all the hubbub is about...
I do keep a smallish piece of fatwood in my pack, along with a small Ziploc baggie with shavings and sawdust (fatwood) and have never had any trouble getting a fire started, even when wet.
The cotton ball thing may be another "tool in the box"...

----------


## hunter63

Yeah well the cotton balls are great....but if you have pets, stay away from dryer lint (yeah I know, I said it.....) smells like burning hair.

----------


## finallyME

There are lots of different tinder options, we just need to remember the purposes.  I am not disagreeing with anyone, just talking out loud.  Also, this is for newbies to help them understand tinder a little better.

One thing we need to differentiate is between "survival" tinder and "bushcraft" tinder.  Bushcraft tinder is fun to play with and works...with proper skill and the right conditions.  Bushcraft tinder is also generally found naturally.  Having the skills to properly find, and manufacture bushcraft tinder will carry over to survival, and extend the amount of fires you can make.  Survival tinder, on the other hand, is a different animal.  You want it to be dummy proof, as well as weather proof.  You want it to work every time.  You want stuff like wetfire, or pj and cotton balls, or a road flare (there are other examples of course).  You want a lighter or matches.

Sorry for the rant.  I saw on another forum (what those exist?) a guy posted his "emergency survival fire kit" and had flint and steel, char cloth, and other "difficult to make" fire stuff.  Although those are great for "bushcraft", they aren't great for an "emergency" kit.

----------


## Rick

Excellent post, FM. And let's not forget that numb fingers do not work well. If you are suffering from hypothermia you may not be able to strike a match. So you want stuff that's easy to use, doesn't require a lot of dexterity and works even under the worst conditions; i.e. you are wet and cold and shivering.

----------


## hunter63

That was a great post FM.....Rep sent......
Too many time there seems to be a snob factor built in....."I ONLY use the hardest ways to make fire....Cause I better than everyone....".

They don't realize that anyone that knows...is thinking "Dumas".

Playing is fun till something goes sideways.......Be ready for the real thing.

----------


## finallyME

> And let's not forget that numb fingers do not work well. If you are suffering from hypothermia you may not be able to strike a match. So you want stuff that's easy to use, doesn't require a lot of dexterity and works even under the worst conditions; i.e. you are wet and cold and shivering.


Yes, exactly!
This is also why I buy 100% cotton balls instead of using lint.  With lint, you are rolling the dice that your wife didn't wash a bunch of synthetic clothing and now your lint won't work.  I used lint for many years, until I got a batch that just didn't light.  A lighter couldn't get it to work.  I would rather spend the money and KNOW that it will work.
I also started carrying one flare....after hunter recommended it a few years back.  That is for the really, really bad situations.

By the way, I have also seen people not able to light a fire with a flare.  The wood was dry too, and the air was dry.  They just didn't construct a proper fire lay.  So, there is still skill involved with a flare, just not as much as other things.

----------


## MrFixIt

> I keep hearing about the cotton/pj balls but have never tried them.
> I will try to do one this weekend to see what all the hubbub is about...
> I do keep a smallish piece of fatwood in my pack, along with a small Ziploc baggie with shavings and sawdust (fatwood) and have never had any trouble getting a fire started, even when wet.
> The cotton ball thing may be another "tool in the box"...


Tried a couple yesterday (the look the wifey gave me when I asked for cotton balls and Vaseline, lol!).
1st impression was that they are quite messy, had Vaseline all over my hands, then of course (being a man) all over my pants when I wiped my hands.
2nd impression was that they took a spark from a ferro rod quite easily, and burned nicely for several minutes.
Overall, I can see having some made up for use in the kit, but probably won't be my "go-to" fire starter.

----------


## Rick

The other side of that coin is you'll have PJ for medical purposes like chapped lips or hot spots or even impromptu lubrication for guns or multi-tools. Gotta luv multi-purpose stuff.

----------


## ace_maveric

I like to use olive oil in stead of pj.  but also i have taken my cotten ball treated with HNO3 & H2SO4 (do not do this unless you know exactly what you are doing). then added the olive oil.  It can ignite if hit hard enough really hard if do right. done wrong can go off by breathing on it.

----------


## hunter63

Carmex lip balm in the jar and dry cotton balls or tissue paper......(cotton balls big bag from the Dollar store)....no mess.....works for all sorts of stuff including fire spark catching tinder.  
Mrfixit.....DW calls me messy Marvin....the dog likes to clean crumbs off my shirt......I hear ya.

----------


## Tokwan

Two good and important points raised by the Rick and Hunter. Sometimes people forget when they are in a survival mode, they could be very tired, very cold, sick or injured and in a very precarious situation. Speed and ease in coming up with a fire and shelter is important. The simplicity and the lite weight of your tools are also key, cos if its too heavy, leave it,. If its too difficult or too meticulous, leave it. 
I always practice this mode, and I find that I can make a quick shelter from rain and fire fairly in a few minutes. Fire is easily achieved within 10 minutes....( of course this includes the wood feathering, kindling and wood for the fire. My fav fire making tool is the Swedish Army Firesteel and PJ/Cotton balls followed by the DOAN Magnesium strip. Of course a lighter will be the first choice if available.

----------


## MrFixIt

> The other side of that coin is you'll have PJ for medical purposes like chapped lips or hot spots or even impromptu lubrication for guns or multi-tools. Gotta luv multi-purpose stuff.


No doubt. Most of the items that I carry have multi use in mind. I tend to carry more stuff than I need usually, but I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.




> Carmex lip balm in the jar and dry cotton balls or tissue paper......(cotton balls big bag from the Dollar store)....no mess.....works for all sorts of stuff including fire spark catching tinder.  
> Mrfixit.....DW calls me messy Marvin....the dog likes to clean crumbs off my shirt......I hear ya.


I can walk out with the dogs and be filthy in about 15 minutes...wifey usually asks me what I get into, but it's kinda hard to explain. I guess I just attract dirt...

----------


## hunter63

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Rick

Buhahahaha. A couple of years ago I was walking down a creek and stepped over a log. The sand on the other side had no bottom so when I stepped on it I was pitched forward and I did a perfect face plant in the creek bed. I looked a great deal like that when I got up.

----------


## Tokwan

At least there was no embarrassment when it happened in the woods..I fell face first into a puddle of water (in heavy rain ) in the city....now ....imagine how many eyes looked at ya.

----------


## TXyakr

> There are lots of different tinder options, we just need to remember the purposes.


 You make some very good points there are basically 3 sources of fire tinders or accelerants oil/fat from plants, animals and petroleum (fossil fuels or very old plants and animals). All of these may work or fail miserably but the most important factor in my personal experience is how well I have practiced with each one. Have I protected it well or learned to locate it in an emergency and/or in adverse conditions? I like those crush and water resistant containers with "O" rings (sold for matches) but I use to protect emergency tinder and fire steel etc, a broken ferro rod or crushed lighter can still be used to start a fire but it is much more difficult. You can also make a gasket for a small screw top pill bottle. But practicing multiple methods with several different materials is best, an aluminum roasting pan on the porch may work or just the BBQ grill at a local park during a misting rain or wet snow with some wind can be worthwhile. Freezing fingers with a rain suit that leaks will simulate some discomfort like when your creek crossing fails and your tender pack is lost. The difference is you have dry clothes in a car in the parking lot a few feet away.

There are many good ideas on dozens of websites but they often have a few questionable recommendations worth mentioning:

I read some fairly good ideas at "sensible survival" site on wet-weather-fire-building and got the idea of soaking some natural fiber cord in melted bee's wax to use as a water resistant tinder. But personally I would select the highly refined white bee's wax so that its smell does not attract bears or other varmints to my backpack or shelter even a tiny mouse can do a lot of damage or attract a venomous snake that hunts it. There were a few other minor things I noted. Also if you test out tinder on your porch watch out for flammable stuff around it and sudden gusts of wind. I prefer a fire ring in the back yard or BBQ grill for practice.

----------


## randyt

I had gotten soaking wet during a cold rain in November a few years back. After the lavuu was set up, I gathered up birch bark and squaw wood. Everything was so wet it still took some zippo lighter fluid to get the fire going good. It's good to have a accelerant.

----------


## TXyakr

I left out the non-pertroleum chemical accelerant fire starting tools because most are problematic in my experience.  Magnesium blocks may be the best but potassium permanganate + glycerin is a gimmick. Electric batteries (chemical reaction that produces electricity) is not very reliable, usually just one fire start at best. Hypothermia reduces ones ability to think clearly and kills more than lighting and hyperthermia combined so something simple and reliable is critical.

----------


## wilderness medic

> I use vaccume Sealed bags, the ones for food. Works great!


This is what i'm working on now. Trying to make a combo char/PJ cotton pack stuffed into a vacuum sealed bag for emergencies. Trying to figure out how to work this new vacuum sealer the way I want. Trying to make a small flat credit card sized pack that is waterproof, and when opened will poof back up.

----------


## TXyakr

A vacuum seal machine is on my gear wish list. I use those small craft store ziplock bags for many camping items but the closure  often fails. Tinder bundles would be a good use for V.S. and dozens of others like first aid, snacks, spices to add to dehydrated meals, daily packs of medication pills, emergency fishing hooks, backup batteries. I have had almost all of this and more pop out of zipper bags under a little pressure, very frustrating.  A friend had his s-phone in a "aquapak" which is like a very heavy duty ziplock bag. But under some pressure by his PFD while going thru rapids it split the seams and the water ruined the phone. So I put essential electronics in a dry box and that in a dry bag while boating or in a dry bag on the very top of my other gear in the backpack while hiking. I wonder if it would still work in vacuum seal plastic? Next phone needs to be an "active" water resistant model.

----------


## wilderness medic

> A vacuum seal machine is on my gear wish list. I use those small craft store ziplock bags for many camping items but the closure  often fails. Tinder bundles would be a good use for V.S. and dozens of others like first aid, snacks, spices to add to dehydrated meals, daily packs of medication pills, emergency fishing hooks, backup batteries. I have had almost all of this and more pop out of zipper bags under a little pressure, very frustrating.  A friend had his s-phone in a "aquapak" which is like a very heavy duty ziplock bag. But under some pressure by his PFD while going thru rapids it split the seams and the water ruined the phone. So I put essential electronics in a dry box and that in a dry bag while boating or in a dry bag on the very top of my other gear in the backpack while hiking. I wonder if it would still work in vacuum seal plastic? Next phone needs to be an "active" water resistant model.


I have the "Lifeproof" box for my phone. Works great(ish). Fun to be able to take pictures underwater. When I go to a pool I can pop on my music set the phone in my pocket and do breath hold training while listening to tunes underwater. If you decide to do that with you next one make sure you register the box as soon as you get it or there is no warranty. The code on the wrapper is worth the price of the case.


I can't wait to get the sealer working and figured out. I have 4 brand new Sawyer Mini water filters I want to seal and throw in various places like the car, couple bags, cache etc. Starting a big load of chili to try it out on tonight and start storing emergency food.

----------


## wilderness medic

Pleasantly surprised. I was able to get 6 jumbo PJ cotton balls into the approximate size of a credit card. Had I flattened them out before sealing they would have been closer to the same thickness too. Completely waterproof, lightweight and easy to carry in a wallet.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Tokwan

PJ saturated cotton balls are already waterproof...so be it anywhere, u can use them. Looks like you put the trust into them Sawyer Mini Water Filter just like me...hehehe

----------


## wilderness medic

> PJ saturated cotton balls are already waterproof...so be it anywhere, u can use them. Looks like you put the trust into them Sawyer Mini Water Filter just like me...hehehe


Completely waterproof? I know the PJ is, but if the dry cotton gets wet....I coat the outside so there is still dry spots to catch a spark.

I was just messing around, char cloth isn't waterproof, but now i'm questioning the point in char cloth.

What do you put the trust in them? Trust them to work?

----------


## natertot

> Buhahahaha. A couple of years ago I was walking down a creek and stepped over a log. The sand on the other side had no bottom so when I stepped on it I was pitched forward and I did a perfect face plant in the creek bed. I looked a great deal like that when I got up.


So if a Rick falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?!

Sorry....... couldn't help it.  :2:

----------


## crashdive123

Oh ----- I'll bet it made a sound.  Probably not one that can be repeated here though.

----------


## TXyakr

I'm not sure that anything is 100% waterproof. But somethings are highly water resistant (a glass marble miles under the ocean will crack open). I try to remember to put a date on items like those PJ cotton tinders, then replace and use them after a year or two. When wrapped in duct tape eventually heat, dry air, and UV etc will cause the adhesive and fabric/vinyl to flake off. So best to just make a replacement and practice using the old one. Same thing with old First Aid antibiotic ointment packets (mostly pj), alcohol wipe pads, bandaids and gauze etc: try lighting a fire with them after they expire.

----------


## wilderness medic

> I'm not sure that anything is 100% waterproof. But somethings are highly water resistant (a glass marble miles under the ocean will crack open). I try to remember to put a date on items like those PJ cotton tinders, then replace and use them after a year or two. When wrapped in duct tape eventually heat, dry air, and UV etc will cause the adhesive and fabric/vinyl to flake off. So best to just make a replacement and practice using the old one. Same thing with old First Aid antibiotic ointment packets (mostly pj), alcohol wipe pads, bandaids and gauze etc: try lighting a fire with them after they expire.


True. And carrying it around in my wallet will eventually lead to the bag wearing through. Just another added layer of security. If nothing else it contains that PJ a lot better than a regular baggy.

----------


## Batch

I have two big vacuum sealers and a small palm one for zip lock bags. I'll stick with double wrapped butcher paper.

As for the wallet. I'll stick a straw with a PJ cotton ball in mine and see how it works.

----------


## wilderness medic

> I have two big vacuum sealers and a small palm one for zip lock bags. I'll stick with double wrapped butcher paper..


Why?


........

----------


## Tokwan

I try my best to get the cotton wool to be fully covered with the pj. The PJ works like sort of "wax" and keeps the moisture away. When I wanna use it as tinder, I would spread the cotton ball, sort of opening the inside and it will receive a spark...always, never failed yet. Anyway, I carry my PJ with cotton balls in a 35mm fim roll..which is already water proof. That is why I put my trust in the PJ covered cotton balls. As for the Sawyer, I have a friend who works in the Science University of Malaysia..he helps me with my work (Investigations) and is sort of my personal lab rat. I have sent him samples of the water filtered by the sawyer for an "Unoffical" test when I got the sawyer. he claims the test results that it was similar to tap water, minus the chlorine.

----------


## wilderness medic

> I try my best to get the cotton wool to be fully covered with the pj. The PJ works like sort of "wax" and keeps the moisture away. When I wanna use it as tinder, I would spread the cotton ball, sort of opening the inside and it will receive a spark...always, never failed yet. Anyway, I carry my PJ with cotton balls in a 35mm fim roll..which is already water proof. That is why I put my trust in the PJ covered cotton balls. As for the Sawyer, I have a friend who works in the Science University of Malaysia..he helps me with my work (Investigations) and is sort of my personal lab rat. I have sent him samples of the water filtered by the sawyer for an "Unoffical" test when I got the sawyer. he claims the test results that it was similar to tap water, minus the chlorine.


Sayer Mini is probably my favorite piece of gear invented so far. Small, lightweight, fits most bottles, straw attachment. Thank to it I can fill up a couple of 55 gallon drums in my yard with tap water and not have to worry about treating it. When I need it, it's there. Just a squeeze away. Only downside is any salts and viruses.

----------


## Tokwan

Well..that is why I only use it for survival....in a survival situation...

----------


## wilderness medic

> Well..that is why I only use it for survival....in a survival situation...


Huh....? What is...?

----------


## Tokwan

The sawyer little thing!

----------


## MrFixIt

> I saw yer little thing!


FTFY.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

----------


## natertot

> FTFY.
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist...


That is funny right there!

----------


## wilderness medic

> The sawyer little thing!


Right, but what was the reason you only use if for survival. I'm not sure what you were trying to say... because it can't filter salt?





And stop making fun of my little thing. I am how god made me.  :Banana:

----------


## Tokwan

Okay, maybe my english is still bad....now, how do I explain this...in a camping situation, I usually nned not use a water filter as I usually camp quite near a water source. In Malaysia, its usually is a flowing body of water such as a stream. The water is always clear but I do boil the water.
Now the Sawyer little thing!...I keep this aside, in my survival pouch. Its mean to be used only during a survival situation. In a survival situation (or in am emergency situation when I have o leave the camp , usually due to threats from wild elephants), I would usually boil water. But in the event, I could not boil water, I would use the sawyer mini filter.

----------


## crashdive123

Back when I did a lot more backpacking I used a filter exclusively unless I was setting up camp for the night.  I didn't want to take the time to boil water while I was on the move.

----------


## wilderness medic

> Okay, maybe my english is still bad....now, how do I explain this...in a camping situation, I usually nned not use a water filter as I usually camp quite near a water source. In Malaysia, its usually is a flowing body of water such as a stream. The water is always clear but I do boil the water.
> Now the Sawyer little thing!...I keep this aside, in my survival pouch. Its mean to be used only during a survival situation. In a survival situation (or in am emergency situation when I have o leave the camp , usually due to threats from wild elephants), I would usually boil water. But in the event, I could not boil water, I would use the sawyer mini filter.


Sorry for not understanding, forget english isn't everyone primary language. 

But i'm curious why you would do it that way, only for survival? Even in camp it's so much quicker, unless you're boiling water anyway to cook? I have several, some sealed and unused for survival situations, one I take and use pretty much everywhere. I can drink directly from a stream, or fill up my platypus in about a minute. Are you just trying to keep it unused so it lasts longer?

----------


## Tokwan

Okay, well in a survival situation, I would only use it if I am not able to boil water. If I am able to boil water, I would not use the sawyer mini filter. The reason is, there is no water filter I know that is able to filter 100% germs and bacteria. It would not be helpful if an animal with a viral disease (due to a virus) died up stream, or if there is a pool upstream where animals gather to drink and at the same time, the pool accumulated faeces....which will contaminate the water. 
I usually use the sawyer mini filter last to drink directly as it only filters the water. It dos not purify the water.  These would be my priorities in a survival mode:-
1. Boil water and if I cannot, I would:
2. I would use Aquatab, a water purifying tablet (drop a tablet in a liter of water for 30 minutes before drinking the water)
3. Use the Sawyer Water Filter if I can't boil water or run out of Aquatab. 

Please note that in a survival situation, if I can't find clear water, and the water around is a bit murky ..I would filter with the sawyer, then boil the filtered water. 

There is a disease in Malaysia where many people have died just because they drank contaminated water which look clear and harmless.

----------


## wilderness medic

Fair enough, but here are some things to think about.

The MINI removes 99.99999% of all bacteria, such as salmonella, cholera and E.coli; removes 99.9999% of all protozoa, such as giardia and cryptosporidium

I'd be more concerned to get something floating or falling into my water after boiling it then from that rate.

Boiling in water for fifteen minutes will kill most vegetative bacteria and inactivate viruses, but boiling is ineffective against prions and many bacterial and fungal spores. However, since boiling does kill most vegetative microbes and viruses, it is useful for reducing viable levels if no better method is available.

The sawyer will filter spores.

Boiling does not remove heavy metals.

The Sawyer will help eliminate some heavy metals.


If you wanted to play it very safe it would seem using both like you said would be a good idea, regardless of water clarity. A lot of it depends on the water source too. Many hikers drink from the high Sierras with no filter or boiling and never have a problem. Something I wouldn't do, why risk it, but haven't seen one have a problem yet.

----------


## Tokwan

The Sawyer capability is claimed by Sawyer...but from my tests with the Uni..it was stated as clean as tap water which still have some bacteria.

----------


## wilderness medic

> The Sawyer capability is claimed by Sawyer...but from my tests with the Uni..it was stated as clean as tap water which still have some bacteria.


Did the assay show exactly what bacteria was in it? I'm fine with drinking tap water. The filter removes 99.99999%. Unless it's sealed sterile water spores and bacteria are floating through the air, there's always bound to be a little something in it. When it gets to a certain PPM would be the time for worrying about transmission.

----------


## Tokwan

Hey WM...tap water in the USA is drinkable directly from the tap...not in Malaysia though.....we still boil our tap water here..and my Bud in the Uni was referring to the tap water in Malaysia.....

----------


## wilderness medic

> Hey WM...tap water in the USA is drinkable directly from the tap...not in Malaysia though.....we still boil our tap water here..and my Bud in the Uni was referring to the tap water in Malaysia.....


Ah, gotcha! Sorry, never been there and not familiar with things like that!  :Smile:  


I'm really interested to see the analysis, is there any possible way you can get this? Sawyers are pretty highly used and recommended, i've never heard of a problem with them. Are you sure it wasn't allowed to freeze, or broken in some way to let contaminants in? Was it a new filter?

----------


## Rick

Most filters don't remove viruses. Boiling will kill them. RE: your comment about boiling for 15 minutes. That isn't necessary. Bacteria, cysts, oocysts, protozoa and viruses are killed around 168F. Once water boils you are well beyond the temperature they die at. Boiling longer only wastes fuel. You could stop at 175F if you had a thermometer with you but since we don't the easiest way to determine the safe level is simply bring the water to a boil. 

As for freezing, I have stored my filters in the freezer if I didn't plant to use them for a while. It keeps mold from growing inside the filter. I clean them, allow them to dry and toss them in the freezer.

----------


## wilderness medic

> Most filters don't remove viruses. Boiling will kill them. RE: your comment about boiling for 15 minutes. That isn't necessary. Bacteria, cysts, oocysts, protozoa and viruses are killed around 168F. Once water boils you are well beyond the temperature they die at. Boiling longer only wastes fuel. You could stop at 175F if you had a thermometer with you but since we don't the easiest way to determine the safe level is simply bring the water to a boil. 
> 
> As for freezing, I have stored my filters in the freezer if I didn't plant to use them for a while. It keeps mold from growing inside the filter. I clean them, allow them to dry and toss them in the freezer.


 
In regards to virus

Boiling is highly effective in killing them"- CDC

 but does not kill all of them all of the time.



"Boiling in water for fifteen minutes will kill most vegetative bacteria and inactivate viruses, but boiling is ineffective against prions and many bacterial and fungal spores; therefore boiling is unsuitable for sterilization. However, since boiling does kill most vegetative microbes and viruses, it is useful for reducing viable levels if no better method is available. Boiling is a simple process, and is an option available to most people, requiring only water, enough heat, and a container that can withstand the heat; however, boiling can be hazardous and cumbersome." -Wikipedia



Why would there be a need for autoclaves to kill all viruses/bacteria is boiling did it? Why would we need a pressure canner to raise temps above boiling if boiling killed the bacteria botulism(Killed at 248F)? 

It may be rare, but there are bacteria and viruses that can live beyond that temperature.



As for the filters, I was speaking just about the Sawyers micro tubes which can crack if frozen and not completely dry.

----------


## Rick

I'm not disputing anything you posted. But there is no difference between reaching a boil and boiling for 15 minutes. I was just trying to save you some fuel.

Here's an excerpt from the Wilderness Medical Society. 

_water temperatures above 160° F (70° C) kill all pathogens within 30 minutes and above 185° F (85° C) within a few minutes. So in the time it takes for the water to reach the boiling point (212° F or 100° C) from 160° F (70° C), all pathogens will be killed,even at high altitude.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ir2...0water&f=false_

----------


## MrFixIt

I guess the real question is how well does the Sawyer filter work as tinder... :Innocent:

----------


## wilderness medic

> I guess the real question is how well does the Sawyer filter work as tinder...


Whoops  :Smile:  A little off topic.


I see what you're saying Rick good point. Although I don't think that statement from WMS is correct as we can see from various sources it doesn't kill ALL pathogens, even if it is the best and safest way available.

I think the moral of the story is nothing is 100% safe. Boiling or filter, neither is 100%. Find a good water source! Makes me rethink my frequent use of the mini on day hikes along streams, I forgot i'm not in the high sierras near the cleaner source. I'm going to see where my various waterways come from and if they pass through any sort of natural filter.

----------


## MrFixIt

> Whoops  A little off topic.


No problem on my end, just kinda bored in the office today... :Wink: 
The discussion was actually informative.

----------


## hunter63

> I guess the real question is how well does the Sawyer filter work as tinder...


What?....Back on topic....what fun is that?.....LOL
Bet that plastic burns like crazy......

----------


## TXyakr

> I guess the real question is how well does the Sawyer filter work as tinder...


Probably not, but some tinders if kept clean and dry (cotton balls) might work as a pre-filter to extend the life of your filter. HaHa. :Smartass:  Like tinders and fire starters all filter methods have their pros and cons, main reason I carry a Sawyer mini backpacking rather than regular size or my older Platypus filter is that being small it is easier to keep close to my body and prevent freezing. Also water in vinyl bag of Platypus tastes bad, boiling takes more time but is probably the safest method, some people are allergic to iodine, especially pregnant women who should avoid it but HEY! 47% alcohol in Iodine Tincture is an fire accelerant! (not a very good one) Also anti-antiseptic for 1st aid, but burns like heck. Just add citric acid or citrus peel to iodine treated water to reduce unpleasant taste, still tastes bad. ;-)
I.e. multi use survival items can be good but all have disadvantages.

----------


## TXyakr

> As for freezing, I have stored my filters in the freezer if I didn't plant to use them for a while. It keeps mold from growing inside the filter. I clean them, allow them to dry and toss them in the freezer.


I could be wrong, but assumed after reading at Sawyer dot com about their "hollow fiber membrane technology" that if even small amounts of water were trapped in these micro tubes and it froze it could over time degrade the filtering ability of the device. Therefore if you have had several days in a dry environment to completely dry it out this should not be an issue, but on the trail it may shorten the life of the filter to some degree. But probably not completely destroy it if you shake out most of the water very vigorously. Shake it out, put it in a sealed plastic bag, place in a hot sunny spot and see how much water evaporates from it over several days.

----------


## wilderness medic

> I could be wrong, but assumed after reading at Sawyer dot com about their "hollow fiber membrane technology" that if even small amounts of water were trapped in these micro tubes and it froze it could over time degrade the filtering ability of the device. Therefore if you have had several days in a dry environment to completely dry it out this should not be an issue, but on the trail it may shorten the life of the filter to some degree. But probably not completely destroy it if you shake out most of the water very vigorously. Shake it out, put it in a sealed plastic bag, place in a hot sunny spot and see how much water evaporates from it over several days.


I think he was referring to a different filter. Sawyer a hold a lot of water even after shaking. Been curious if I could throw it in the dehydrator on a low setting to remove it. Either way $25 isn't worth taking a risk of my filter being useless and not knowing. When in doubt I'll toss it and get a new one. The only time I let mine get on freezing temps is when they're brand new and sealed so moisture can't get in.

----------


## TXyakr

> I think he was referring to a different filter.


I did not want to accuse anyone of being wrong. Best to just email the manufacturer and ask them, it is in their best interest to get good reviews and happy customers.

I am obsessively focused on gear failure analysis, probably not in a healthy way, but I don't like to be needlessly uncomfortable or in danger while camping/hunting etc. I have been cold and wet (Hypothermia), had beaver fever (Giardia), and tapeworms, Infectious Hepatitis type A from contaminated water, seen my Dad evacuated with 2 strains of malaria.

A friend used one of those dry boxes from "Outdoor Products" (sold at Wal-Mart) for his emergency supplies including tinder, 1st aid, protein snacks etc. He accessed it while high in the Rocky Mountains (over 10,000 feet) then returned to a lower elevation and just the increased atmospheric pressure cause the thin plastic box to crack. I have also seen the gaskets and hinges of other dry boxes from Pelican, Otter-Box, and Plano brands fail. So bottom line: the idea of putting each item or group of items such as tinder and bandaids etc in an individual vacuum seal bag seams like a good idea to me. Dry box is just added protection, and to reduce chance it will be crushed in transport. Also leave box open while driving or flying across the country. ;-)

----------


## Rick

My filter is an MSR Sweet Water filter. I would still be concerned about putting any filter away that was wet. That's a pretty ripe environment for mold. Most spores are too large to pass through the filter but could be lodged at the front of it.

----------


## wilderness medic

> My filter is an MSR Sweet Water filter. I would still be concerned about putting any filter away that was wet. That's a pretty ripe environment for mold. Most spores are too large to pass through the filter but could be lodged at the front of it.


Good point it would be prime breeding ground for some fungus spores lodged in there. Thankfully the Sawyer lets you back flush it with the provided syringe to blow that funk back out. Glad you brought that up, because I never did that, and now I will.

----------


## Tokwan

> Ah, gotcha! Sorry, never been there and not familiar with things like that!  
> 
> 
> I'm really interested to see the analysis, is there any possible way you can get this? Sawyers are pretty highly used and recommended, i've never heard of a problem with them. Are you sure it wasn't allowed to freeze, or broken in some way to let contaminants in? Was it a new filter?


Talked to my buddy in the UNi..he said that the analysis on the sawyer was never an official test as he was only doing me a favor and that was many moons ago...(he shouldn't have done it as the UNI does not allow product testing -liability and legality issues...)

----------


## wilderness medic

> Talked to my buddy in the UNi..he said that the analysis on the sawyer was never an official test as he was only doing me a favor and that was many moons ago...(he shouldn't have done it as the UNI does not allow product testing -liability and legality issues...)


I understand. Perhaps if you ever get the chance you could ask him to do it again with a brand new filter and see if the results were the same? No need to post specifics, just if it was still unsanitary....

Just repackaged and vacuum sealed four brand new minis

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Tokwan

Okay..will call him and make that 60 mile trip...

----------


## TXyakr

> My filter is an MSR Sweet Water filter. I would still be concerned about putting any filter away that was wet. That's a pretty ripe environment for mold. Most spores are too large to pass through the filter but could be lodged at the front of it.


You make a very good point. I can think of several possible solutions but they are all just wild guesses and could do more harm than good. Best to contact the manufacturer and ask them for recommendations. Most of us have learned the hard way the importance of completely drying out our tarps, tents, sleeping bags etc because fungus destroys them very quickly. But drinking fungus/mold could be even worse, some people react very badly to certain spores. Shiitake mushrooms are thankfully not a problem for me but never grow on my gear either, probably not good tinder either dog gone it.

----------


## TXyakr

Sorry for beating this "off topic" issue to death but this is what these two water filter brands posted on their web sites:
MSR SweetWater Filter:
"For long-term storage, place filter cartridge in a zip-lock bag in freezer to retard bacterial growth. Discard your first few quarts of water filtered after extended storage."
Sawyer: "Can I freeze the filter?
While we have no proof that freezing will harm the filter, we do not have enough proof to say it will not harm the filter, therefore we must say that if you suspect the filter has been frozen, to replace it  this is especially true with a hard freeze."

Easy test is try filtering food dyed water, red food coloring works well. If filtered water is pink filter is getting old or not working as well.

So just the cartridge from MSR is OK to freeze, but it might damage the filter from Sawyer, they are not sure.
Personally I would try to shake out as much water from the tubes and bags etc and try not to let them freeze hard,
and flush a lot of clean water thru them before each camping trip and before drinking any.
So perhaps I should just email them a question about using these filters as tinder. ;-) ha ha ha

----------


## wilderness medic

> Shiitake mushrooms are thankfully not a problem for me but never grow on my gear either, probably not good tinder either… dog gone it.


With repeated exposure they probably would be.






> Sorry for beating this "off topic" issue to death but this is what these two water filter brands posted on their web sites:
> MSR SweetWater Filter:
> "For long-term storage, place filter cartridge in a zip-lock bag in freezer to retard bacterial growth. Discard your first few quarts of water filtered after extended storage."
> Sawyer: "Can I freeze the filter?
> While we have no proof that freezing will harm the filter, we do not have enough proof to say it will not harm the filter, therefore we must say that if you suspect the filter has been frozen, to replace it — this is especially true with a hard freeze."
> 
> Easy test is try filtering food dyed water, red food coloring works well. If filtered water is pink filter is getting old or not working as well.
> 
> So just the cartridge from MSR is OK to freeze, but it might damage the filter from Sawyer, they are not sure.
> ...


Where did you get that test from or the idea colors would be filtered? The Sawyer filters out large particles like spores and bacteria, not dissolved solids. That may work on other filters, I don't know, but not the Sawyer.

The reason the Sawyer would be damaged is it's comprised of many very tiny tubes, much like a human kidney. If water is left in it to freeze, the water will expand and crack the tubes, thereby letting contaminated water pass through. If the tubes have been cracked no amount of flushing water through it afterwards its going to help. If you're talking about while hiking, yes, shake out as much as possible, and don't let it freeze. Keep it in your pocket warmed by your body, and in your sleeping bag at night.

----------


## Rick

Wonder what you're supposed to do in winter? I'm sure no one would ever bust ice to secure water. Naaaaaa.

----------


## TXyakr

> The reason the Sawyer would be damaged is it's comprised of many very tiny tubes, much like a human kidney. If water is left in it to freeze, the water will expand and crack the tubes, thereby letting contaminated water pass through. If the tubes have been cracked no amount of flushing water through it afterwards its going to help. If you're talking about while hiking, yes, shake out as much as possible, and don't let it freeze. Keep it in your pocket warmed by your body, and in your sleeping bag at night.


That was my understanding along with many other people's reasoning on many forums and websites, it seems logical. So I was surprised that on Sawyer's website they said there was no proof that a freeze would "harm" it. The food coloring is only a rough estimate that works best on carbon filters, with something like a Sawyer if it is difficult to back flush and very slow to filter you probably need to replace it. This is why I use Aluminum Sulfate or a fabric pre-filter for silty water, to increase the filter's life and reduce the need for back flush. Used and dried pre-filters can be used as tinder, I pack all my trash such as bits of paper towel that I wipe out greasy pots with etc keep in used plastic bag or found/used screw top bottle, I don't pick up all the liter I see along the trail just what may be useful in case I need more tinder. The most essential survival tools for me are water, blade and fire. I get a bit "paranoid" if I do not have multiple backups of each of these.

Edit: I don't have the means to determine if a hard freeze has "harmed" a Sawyer filter. Perhaps they could hard freeze water in several then cut them open and microscopically inspect for burst micro tubes? Or repeatedly hard freeze and filter pathogenic water thru and compare to the same water thru "unharmed" filters to see if there are more or less pathogens compared to the control samples? This would be strong evidence for me.
Now as a tinder, cut/break it open see if it burns like steel wool. HA HA HA. But seriously would it? My guess is that it would just melt not burn.

----------


## TXyakr

> Wonder what you're supposed to do in winter? I'm sure no one would ever bust ice to secure water. Naaaaaa.


That's funny. Why experienced folks also sleep with a water bottle to drink from in the morning so they don't need to "bust thru ice" or melt snow, ice etc to get a drink. Electronics, lighter fluid, things like that which do not work well frozen solid. I was told to buy a winter Sleeping Bag longer than I needed for stuff like that. Also canister fuel does not work well if very cold. When car camping you can sometimes find half full tanks of propane and mixed butane/propane in dumpsters because people do not understand this. Some of my best gear came from a thrift store or dumpster etc. Different fire starters, camp stoves and even tinder for extremely cold weather.

----------


## Rick

I don't care where you store your water if you are out long enough you'll have to replenish. In the winter that often means busting through ice to get to the water. If your filter is prone to breaking if it freezes then it's not much good to you in winter.

----------


## wilderness medic

TX- Where did you get that "quote" from Sawyers website, because that's not what i've read, or am reading now. The state there is no definitive way to TEST if it's been damaged. (as in your food coloring trick) Not that they don't know if freezing will damage it.


Rick- If the water you got to was actually liquid it's still below freezing. Unless it's so cold out as soon as you stop pushing the water through it instantly freezes and expands before you can get it back to warmth?? Is that possible? I imagine so somewhere with low enough temps, but I don't know I don't play in places that cold!

----------


## Rick

You've never broken ice to get water? If it's cold enough for water to freeze then water in the filter will freeze once you put it back in your pack. You can have that problem in the mountains. We were in Montana in August and the elevation we were at had snow on the ground and freezing rain.

----------


## hunter63

That's it....this is all too hard for me.......my water is gonna be Krausened.........Or I not drinking it....

----------


## wilderness medic

No you don't put it in your pack afterwards. To keep it on your body to prevent freezing. This works fine for freezing and a little below. I can't say about negative "x" degrees. No experience with that.

----------


## crashdive123

The coldest weather that I've camped in was -25 F.  Before I went to bed I boiled some water and put it in a SS bottle and then into the sleeping bag as a bed warmer of sorts.  In the morning it had not frozen.  My bag was rated at -40 and I stayed toasty warm all night long.

----------


## Rick

You put your wet filter on your body? Not me. In the pack it goes.

----------


## TXyakr

> TX- Where did you get that "quote" from Sawyers website, because that's not what i've read, or am reading now. The state there is no definitive way to TEST if it's been damaged. (as in your food coloring trick) Not that they don't know if freezing will damage it.


I agree with you, Sawyer has not figured out a way to determine if their filters can be damaged or "harmed" by a hard freeze. I was quoting their international web site, their filters are very popular overseas. (From a legal view I doubt a most lawyers would attempt to prove "no harm", similar for a scientist, so I'm not sure "how" to interpret this statement of theirs. To prove a negative is a difficult hurdle, to say "have not found any evidence of harm so far", might be more convincing.)

http://sawyer.com/international/faqs/

this forum did not let me post url link because I am a newbie to forum

Food coloring is worthless for testing most quality filters, I should not have mentioned it, sorry. There are better methods to test but they require a serious biological lab.

Best to start a completely new thread on hot water bottles and/or bags for putting by your femoral artery or where ever and drink in the morning. There are dozens of issues, pros and cons, problems and solutions with taking anything wet into you bedding especially in very cold weather. My rule of thumb is to read the specs on any gear and test it out. I.e. can a water bottle/bag survive being frozen solid if lid is off or lose, can it hold boiling water or just very hot? How well does the lid seal? Same thing with filter: is only the center cartridge freeze resistant or if a tube or pump mechanism is full of water will it survive a hard freeze, how careful must I be to drain it? But very cool that MSR filter cartridge is proven to be hard freeze proof, not all filter companies can claim this. A new thread on this topic would be a good idea, IMO.

Tons more to discuss about tinders, how to package them, make them. I have never used those "Weber Lighter Cubes" has anyone vacuum sealed individual cubes or half cubes of these and used them to start a wilderness camp fire? How do they compare to PJ+cotton balls? I would probably pre-shave off some fine material then seal it all up individually so they are all ready to go in an emergency. Speed is critical if you are going into Hypothermic shock.

----------


## wilderness medic

Ok have either of you used a Sawyer? The way you're talking makes me think you're under the impression the whole thing is wet? You shake out the water, only small amounts of residual water reside INSIDE the filter. Never had it leak on me, if that's what your concern is, put it in a small bag.


Anyway. TINDERS. Haha.

After nearly a week long downpour I they finally lifted the burn ban. I had planned on using some gas to burn the huge piles of leaves I had raked up in my back yard, but decided this would be good practice. So, I used just my Mora black w/ fero rod, and a PJ ball. I made two of perhaps the worlds worst feather sticks (really need to work on that), batonned some oak into kindling, and gave it a shot. First strike sent the PJ ball up. Had to sit there and baby it but got it going, even though everything had been soaking for a week.

Took a pretty long time to actually get enough preheated to get the fire self sustaining. After that it became apparent I wasn't going to be able to safely burn any leaves, they were way too wet. Water filled sponge piles. But I was able to burn just about every stick on my property. Got my huge brush pile gone, and all my pine tree trimmings.

Felt good to have gotten so much done without any gas! PJ cotton works great.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

----------


## Tokwan

> You put your wet filter on your body? Not me. In the pack it goes.


Same with me..its in my survival kit...

----------


## Rick

> hot water bottles and/or bags for putting by your femoral artery




That's something Hunter would ask Ruth to do if he ever gets to go camping with her. He likes to get a drink in the middle of the night.

----------


## crashdive123

Well..........Ruth is hot.

----------


## hunter63

She will keep your bottles warm....for sure.......Yeah.....

----------


## hunter63

> Ok have either of you used a Sawyer? The way you're talking makes me think you're under the impression the whole thing is wet? You shake out the water, only small amounts of residual water reside INSIDE the filter. Never had it leak on me, if that's what your concern is, put it in a small bag.
> 
> 
> Anyway. TINDERS. Haha.
> 
> After nearly a week long downpour I they finally lifted the burn ban. I had planned on using some gas to burn the huge piles of leaves I had raked up in my back yard, but decided this would be good practice. So, I used just my Mora black w/ fero rod, and a PJ ball. I made two of perhaps the worlds worst feather sticks (really need to work on that), batonned some oak into kindling, and gave it a shot. First strike sent the PJ ball up. Had to sit there and baby it but got it going, even though everything had been soaking for a week.
> 
> Took a pretty long time to actually get enough preheated to get the fire self sustaining. After that it became apparent I wasn't going to be able to safely burn any leaves, they were way too wet. Water filled sponge piles. But I was able to burn just about every stick on my property. Got my huge brush pile gone, and all my pine tree trimmings.
> 
> ...


Burning copper water filters....(green colors).....

----------

