# Prepping / Emergency Preparedness > Bags, Kits and Vehicles >  W/O  guns, ammo, armor, what weight BOB?

## y2k

mine comes to 30 lbs. When I add the fighting gear, it goes up to 50 lbs. 50 lbs requires Olympic levels of fitness, if you are to "run and gun" with it. That's why the militaries all figure on dropping the "non mission essential" gear, if they get hit.  However, they have quartermaster corps to replace lost gear.  We do not.

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## SARKY

30 lbs! What don't you have in there??? My BOB, actually an EBOB weighs in at 65 lbs with 3 liters of water and 2 weeks of food. I am not looking for a fight when i'm buggin' out . if it comes to me then I dump my BOB and take them out. Most of the morons around here don't know how to shoot or what cover is.
While you're at it how about an intro??? Just go to the intro section and fill in the blanks.

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## crashdive123

> mine comes to 30 lbs. When I add the fighting gear, it goes up to 50 lbs. 50 lbs requires Olympic levels of fitness, if you are to "run and gun" with it. That's why the militaries all figure on dropping the "non mission essential" gear, if they get hit.  However, they have quartermaster corps to replace lost gear.  We do not.


What is your experience with the military?

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## crashdive123

> Running and Gunning? This is your survival strategy?


Well - maybe after a big bowl of chili.

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## Rick

Running and gunning with 50lbs. If that's my pack it had better be loaded with oxygen canisters. I'm gonna need 'em.

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## welderguy

My ghb with 32 oz water and food for 24 hours weighs close to 30 pounds, my pack I use for hiking/ camping is set up for 72 hours , weighs close to 75 pounds .

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## Rick

I set my 3 day pack up at 28 pounds and I'm gonna cut a bunch of weight on it. I had better have it down to 20 pounds or less. How do you carry 75 pounds? They'd find me squashed flat under the weight. Okay, squashed round.

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## 2dumb2kwit

Run and gun? I'm more of a "stay and pray" kind of guy. If I'm runnin', it's cuz my gunnin' wasn't good enough. LOL :Oops:

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## BENESSE

> Run and gun? I'm more of a "stay and pray" kind of guy. If I'm runnin', it's cuz my gunnin' wasn't good enough. LOL


Or the husband got home early.

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## welderguy

> I set my 3 day pack up at 28 pounds and I'm gonna cut a bunch of weight on it. I had better have it down to 20 pounds or less. How do you carry 75 pounds? They'd find me squashed flat under the weight. Okay, squashed round.


 I can go about 2 or 3 miles at a time then I have to rest for a bit, the longest hike ive made with the 75 pound bag on was 13 miles and that was an all day hike in to camp.

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## klickitat

My BOB is my hunting pack and only weighs about 20#'s. I have survival cache's that are close by to get to. 

BTW: I figure if you get into a firefight then you have failed.

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## hunter63

As far as how far I can make it, pack about 30 lbs and one "asset" slow and easy, like smoke, as little trace as possible

Or run-a--gun,... EBR, and double stacked auto loader or two, all ammo and whiskey and ...ah, maybe an energy bar.
People tell me I get mean, when I drink whiskey.........

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## Rick

Well no wonder. Any one that would drink whisky with an energy bar chaser ought to get mean. That's just not right.

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## rwc1969

I'm not a bug out kind of guy, but since visiting these forums I just gotta have one. LOL! keeping up with the Jones'.

Mine is 25-30 lbs. with 3 litres of water and dry food for a good two weeks. Although, I would supplement that with wild gathered and caught stuff. That includes a cook set, shelter, tools for cleaning rifle and repairing rod and reel, stuff for trot lines, snares, basic first aid, hygiene, etc. and 1 set of extra clothes.

I have another BOB which is loaded with more permanent supplies. It weighs 40-50 lbs. with no water and includes everything including a make shift kitchen sink.

Both bags can be combined into one and I can pack them up and down hills and thru the briar patch if need be. I hope need not be.

With the 30 lb. pack I hike open trails at 2.5 to 3.5 miles per hour and off trail rough uneven terrain at 1.5 to 2.5 miles per hour. With the big monstrosity I hike about 1 mph less on average because I stop and take breaks. I'm not some gung ho type so I can take my time and smell the roses. I'm 6' tall and anything over 3.5 miles per hour is a slight jog. Realistically, I can easily cover 15 miles in 10 hours or 24 miles in 16. The most I can recall hiking was 33 miles in 11 hours with a light pack over relatively easy trails and fairly level terrain.

My fishing rod, tackle, rifle and shells adds roughly 10-12 lbs. to the setup.

My setup is changing most every day, getting smaller, swapping this for that. I'm out with my setup at least 3 times a week and I average about 20-40 miles weekly hiking and such.

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## kyratshooter

> Running and Gunning? This is your survival strategy?


That is the politically correct term for "Shoot 'em and loot 'em", the actual plan for most "survival experts" on the internet.

Two MREs and 1500 rounds for the black rifle, preloaded in mags with no known BOL or sanctuary site.  The black rifle is the tool of necessity for "living off the land".  

Without combat gear a BOB is nothing more than a backpack, and should be reguarded as such.   An adult in excellent condition, meaning they workout with their loaded pack two of three times a week, has a recomended limit of 20% of their body weight.  The average person, who THINKS they are in good condition shoul pack 15% of their body weight and plan to discard unnecessary items for the first day of travel.

In other words, an inexperienced packer will pack what he thinks he needs and by the end of two-three days he will have what he actually needs.

For every pound of rifle, ammo, zombie blade, comm gear and body armor, food or some other necessity must come out of the pack.  You do not just keep piling in "necessities" you can not live without.  

During WW2 the Army actually did a study of the combat units and load carrying ability.  Their #1 finding was that when you reached 50 pounds combat weight the casulty rate increased proportunately.  Over 50 pounds, the more you carry the lower your chances of survival due to fatigue and exhaustion.  It was noted that a 70 pound load at 3mph for 10 hours would require hospitalization of the average well conditioned soldier.   

At age 51, after two back surgeries, I hiked the AT for an entire summer.  The longest section without resupply is the strech through the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  It is 70 miles long.  The park rangers will not let you enter the park without 7 days food and a minimal first aid kit.  My pack weight was 40 pounds.  That was everything; sleep gear, shelter, food, clothing for a week and the weight of the pack.  I was overloaded.  My comfort level is 30 pounds.

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## kyratshooter

Quite true AS.  

We must have a plan B and plenty of duct tape.

My Plan A is simply to avoid having to use Plan B at all costs.  Armed conflict is down around Plan F-G.  Running and gunning, at age 60, is not even in the list of plans.

I chose my location with the purpose of avoiding the surging mobs.  I also live in a rural area where there is minimal police presence.  Our force is adequite for serving warrants and keeping the overt crime in check, but when crisis of extreme magnitude erupts they will be at the house protecting their kin just like everyone else, not responding the the 911 calls of looters requesting weapons confiscation of target areas.

We had a double murder in our county 3 years ago.  A nutcase killed his parents for dope money.  It had been 2 years since the previous murder so we have had 2 murders in 5 years and that was family related and the guy got the death penelty. 

30 miles away they average 100+ deaths a year in one of the top 5 most dangerous places in America.  When things get bad that eliment will travel north or east, but not south or west.  It is absolutely, positively too dangerous for them to consider moving this way.

We are a very conservative area.  I can hear the call now:

Mob Caller, "We are a mob of looters trying to get some stuff and a guy is shooting at us!"

Dispatcher, "Hold on Sir we will have someone out there with ammo resupply  for him in a couple of minutes!"  

 :burst: 

Most urban dwellers could not walk far enough to get to my area, or they would be too exhaused to make a problem once they got here.  

In addition, it is one of those sanctuary areas the limited number of folk that know about it would retreat too.  Lots of cabins on the lake owned my lower management and professionals of the nurse/teracher/truck driver type.  This is where they would come when their suburban home was no longer safe.  Most of them bought their cabins with this in mind.  They actually OWN the property they plan on occupying.   

I live at everyone elses Plan B location, I guess.

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## lucznik

Just a few comments/questions...




> ...1500 rounds for the black rifle, preloaded in mags with no known BOL or sanctuary site.


1500 rounds?  At 30 rds/magazine that's 50 magazines.  This can't be something you plan on carrying.




> Without combat gear a BOB is nothing more than a backpack, and should be reguarded as such. ...For every pound of rifle, ammo, zombie blade, comm gear and body armor, food or some other necessity must come out of the pack.  You do not just keep piling in "necessities" you can not live without.


 So, are you advocating carrying combat gear?  I can't tell for sure.  




> In other words, an inexperienced packer will pack what he thinks he needs and by the end of two-three days he will have what he actually needs.


 A beginning hiker that has actually been on a trip or two might end up with what they actually need but, I think the vast majority of the truly inexperienced would end up throwing out some of the more valuable tools in favor of luxury items they just don't want to live without.




> During WW2 the Army actually did a study of the combat units and load carrying ability.  Their #1 finding was that when you reached 50 pounds combat weight the casulty rate increased proportunately.  Over 50 pounds, the more you carry the lower your chances of survival due to fatigue and exhaustion.  It was noted that a 70 pound load at 3mph for 10 hours would require hospitalization of the average well conditioned soldier.


 I'm not disputing your info here as I think it sounds very reasonable but, I'm just wondering why, with all this information available that they, themselves generated, does the Army continue to have soldiers shoulder 100+ lb packs?

This study of combat loads carried by US infantry soldiers in Afghanistan might interest a few:
http://thedonovan.com/archives/moder...LoadReport.pdf

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## hunter63

> This study of combat loads carried by US infantry soldiers in Afghanistan might interest a few:
> http://thedonovan.com/archives/moder...LoadReport.pdf


Thanks for the site, good stuff here.

reading over the lists of gear, lots of mention of under shirts, extra socks, but no shorts?, commando?

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## crashdive123

Depends. :Innocent:

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## kyratshooter

First, I am a back packer, not a bug out proponant.  I die in place.  My packs and their loads are for recreation.  When they start hurting I am officially not recreating.  

I hurt daily and pain keeps me from sleeping in my nice soft bed.  I am not leaving this place so I can hurt worse somewhere I don't like.

I do not own a BOB, do not have one packed and waiting behind the door.  The closest thing I have to that is a day-pack in each of my vehicles.  The intent of those packs is to get me home if I have to abandon the vehicle.  They contain a few survival items, water and an appropriate supply of poptarts.  Since I only put about 500 miles a month on my vehicles the packs will probably never get used.  Each of the vehicles has a pistol and a rifle but that is just bacause I am an ornery old cuss from KY.

It seems as soon as someone says BOB they instantly start the combat operations routinue.  What's your load, how many rounds,weapons "platform", favorite great big combat knife?

I am not a proponant of heading into the woods with the intent of engaging in combat or any other 70 pounds of crap activity.

A combat load is not what you carry while in combat, it is what you carry to combat.  Today's soldier, even infantry, is transported to combat in a vehicle.  Much of the gear is in the vehicle and not on the soldier.

Why does command impose these loads on troops?  Because they have short memories and forget common sense between wars.

The average trooper today weighs less than 150 pounds.  He can not function while carrying 1/2 to 2/3 of his body weight.  You googled the PROPOSED combat load, now google the results of carrying it.  That is where I found my info many years ago.  I think it was something like combat load and effect of fatigue on the soldier, or something like that.

I have been there.  I have started patrols with 70 pounds basic load and 1500 rounds. (Yes, we carried 1,500 rounds, 20 loaded mags and the rest in boxes.) We had to pick those loads up and put them on each other.  We could not lift and strap them on ourselves.  If we sat down we could not stand up alone.  When we stopped for breaks we leaned against trees because it was not worth the trouble of sitting down.  If a shot was fired we flipped the strap locks and dumped everything but ammo and water.

You can not sustain operations with that kind of load.  We stripped things down to nothing personal in the gear.  I remember starting out one patrol as a platoon leader and realizing the only personal items in my load were 5 pairs of socks, a bunch of cans of peanut butter and water.  Everything else was map gear, comm gear, explosives and ammo. (if I had caught a tracer round I would have disapeared in a red puff)

We carried those loads until we could establish a patrol base, where we dumped the gear and carried only what was needed for each mission.  We were fighting people that seldom carried more the 10 pounds of gear.  And command wondered why they were running in circles around us!

My two sons were both in Iraq as Marine infantry.  Their experience was a 60 pound load when they exited the Hummer, most of that being body armor and ammo.  I think they said the body armor alone was 40 pounds and they were happy to have it, until summer came.  Most of their patrol work was riding with only intermitant walking.  

They loved their heavy body armor because their job was to walk around until someobne shot at them so they could react with massive firepower.  When your job is to draw fire 40 pounds of body armor sounds like a real good idea.

I supose that anyone can carry anything they can hoist.  I must assure the heavily loaded BOB wearer that they are shining like a beacon.  To the unprepared you are a walking Wallmart.  To us guys that are dug in, you are still a walking Wall mart, one we do not need roaming around our area.  It almost sounds like the job of a BOB is drawing fire too.

The possibility that you might have some hidden skill set we need or a fishook to trade does not overcome the suspicion that you are danger walking into our midst. 

The first words I want to hear from a "bug outter" are "I'm trying to get to my kinfolk in .....".  

That means you actually have some place to go.

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## lucznik

> First, I am a back packer, not a bug out proponant... My packs and their loads are for recreation.  When they start hurting I am officially not recreating.


 Same here.




> I do not own a BOB, do not have one packed and waiting behind the door.  The closest thing I have to that is a day-pack in each of my vehicles.


 ditto.




> It seems as soon as someone says BOB they instantly start the combat-operations routine.  What's your load, how many rounds,weapons "platform", favorite great big combat knife?
> I am not a proponent of heading into the woods with the intent of engaging in combat or any other 70-pounds-of-crap activity...
> ...I must assure the heavily-loaded BOB wearer that... you are a walking Walmart... one we do not need roaming around our area...
> ...The possibility that you might have some hidden skill... or a fishhook to trade does not overcome the suspicion that you are danger walking into our midst.


 AMEN!!




> ...Today's soldier, even infantry, is transported to combat in a vehicle.  Much of the gear is in the vehicle and not on the soldier.
> Why does command impose these loads on troops?  Because they have short memories and forget common sense between wars.
> The average trooper today weighs less than 150 pounds.  He can not function while carrying 1/2 to 2/3 of his body weight.  You googled the PROPOSED combat load, now google the results of carrying it.


I think we're actually coming from the same essential paradigm; just approaching the point from a slightly different direction.

The report I linked was *not* about proposed loads, but rather _actual_ loads carried by unmounted (no direct vehicle support) infantry troops during _actual_ combat missions averaging 48-72 hours each in Afghanistan in 2003.  The report basically (though much more verbosely) says the same thing you have posted here; combat troops are carrying way too much gear and their effectiveness is way under-par as a result. And that's with young, fit, in-the-prime-of-their-lives fighting men (and women; I don't want to seem sexist).

The report goes on to say that the Army actually has an official rule that states that no soldier should be shouldering any combat load which in total weighs greater than 50lbs, but that this rule is summarily and completely ignored by commanders ranging from platoon sergeants all the way up the ladder to the highest brass. 

Anecdotal evidence collected from men I've known who have served in combat operations during the seven years since this report supports the notion that things have not changed for the better.

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## kyratshooter

They will never change, as long as commanders are not carrying their own packs.

Commanders seem afixed to the 70 pound load.  Weight saving gear does not lighten the load either, it just means you can get more goodies into the 70 pounds, so you are carrying more high tech stuff when you die.

Check out the basic load for a Roman Legionare,  bet you can't guess how much it was right off the top of your head.

Correct, 70, give or take a copuple of pounds.

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## Beans

> I have been there.  I have started patrols with 70 pounds basic load and 1500 rounds. (Yes, we carried 1,500 rounds, 20 loaded mags and the rest in boxes.) We had to pick those loads up and put them on each other.  We could not lift and strap them on ourselves.  If we sat down we could not stand up alone.  When we stopped for breaks we leaned against trees because it was not worth the trouble of sitting down.  If a shot was fired we flipped the strap locks and dumped everything but ammo and water.
> .


Boy that is jarring the memories.  I was talking with some younger men the other day and they had a hard time believing we carried that many loaded magazines. The only bad thing is that they were 20 rounders not the 30 rounders.

The newbees carried a lot of stuff they thought they needed. The longer they were there the lighter their loads.
No tape recorders, tapes and extra batteries, reading material ETC just beans, bullets, bandages and water.


 :Birthday: 

Semper FI

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## kyratshooter

Yep, the military rule remains firm, you do not get rid of weight, you exchange it.

Switch from an M14 to an M16 you save 5 pounds, correct?

Wrong, you trade the 5 pounds of gun for five pounds of ammo, and two blocks of C4.

Switch from .308 to .223 your ammo weight is half as much, right? 

Wrong, you carry twice as much ammo and an extra M60 belt, plus a LAW and three claymores.

Your kelvar helmet is 1 1/2 pounds lighter, thats great! So now we add sappie plates that weight 10 pounds, and make them mandatory.  

This is why we that have served always chuckle at the terms "weight savings" and military intelligence.

This is also why the military stresses SOP, constant training and instinctive responses, the troops are too exhausted to think!

The reason they refer to the infantry as grunts is the sound they make when they put on their packs.

And now, with night vision, infared, seismic sensors, observation drones, thermal bombs, the regular infantryman does not have a chance of survival even with body armor.

The only effective ground fighting against the technology is hit and run ambushes, sniping and IEDs.

"Running and Gunning"?  

You do not run with a 50-70 pound load, and that is what you will have if you carry food, personal items and an effective combat load.

If you carry enough goodies to get you to the "big north woods" and set up housekeeping for eternity you will not have enough combat gear to do any "gunning" along the way.

The most dangerous person in an emergency situation is the guy with a BOB, lots of ammo and no place to go.

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## NightShade

My BOB is just a small pack with a few items in it... Its in my truck as an "abandon the vehicle and get home" bag.... A change of socks... Spair sweatshirt, folding handsaw, 2 bottles of water, paracord, magnesium firestarter, minimal first aid kit... Couple other small items I can't think of off the top of my head.... It weighs only a few pounds....  I never really got the whole "zombie commando" mentality... Seems counter-intuitive, at least for me...
When I was a kid I used to carry About 100 lbs... Going into the woods with almost everything I owned..  I still train with a heavy pack because I have a wife and 2 small kids , who knows what I'd have to carry for them if the need ever occurred.   But when I go out now, I rarely carry more than 10 lbs.  I found that most of the gear I never used, and as I learned more, not only did I not end up using it... I really didn't need it... 
I'm a minimalist, I like traveling light and comfortable.... Just more fun for me, and I've lasted weeks on supplies that "survivalist" on some sites told me I was woefully unprepared and wouldn't last days on..
I guess it boils down to your skill level, experience, and comfort level.

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## SARKY

Come on people, let's not confuse EDC, GHB, BOB, EBOB, and INCH. They are all for very different purposes even if they are similar in their contents (not quantity)

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## NightShade

Good point Sarky..... I may have been a lil off topic there.. more of a GHB than a BOB in my truck..

But I'd still say weight depends in skill , experience, and comfort levels.

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## y2k

I can most certainly run with 50 lbs, it's the going prone and bouncing up again that sucks, ya know? I'm getting older, and just this past year, the legs have really started to go. I can only do 15 or so 1 legged squats, and I have to hold onto a vertical pole to do any at all.  I'm 58.

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## y2k

Walking around in daylight, if shtf, especially if not in thick woods, is just asking to be shot. you don't run much at night, or you'll break a leg, etc.

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## NightShade

ahhhh.. ok.... so if shtf... dont walk around in daylight... y2k will shoot me... Got it!

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## kyratshooter

Truly a superior species.  Y2K was brought here by aliens of an advanced type.  As soon as the superior race replaces the rest of the mere mortals and prepares the earth for their presence they will return.

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## Sarge47

To answer the original thread question I would have to answer that, stark naked, Bob weighs about 230 pounds, but I've been getting on him to lose some wieght!   :Balloon:

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## NightShade

> To answer the original thread question I would have to answer that, stark naked, Bob weighs about 230 pounds, but I've been getting on him to lose some wieght!


ROFLMAO.... Sarge, tell Bob I got a killer workout and diet plan... I try to keep myself in peak shape... Tho I am no Y2K... Seems I'm 28 years younger but he's in better shape.

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## Sarge47

> I can most certainly run with 50 lbs, it's the going prone and bouncing up again that sucks, ya know? I'm getting older, and just this past year, the legs have really started to go. I can only do 15 or so 1 legged squats, and I have to hold onto a vertical pole to do any at all.  I'm 58.


I can most certainly run with 50 lbs,  So if we pay you 50 pounds will you run off & leave us alone? it's the going prone and bouncing  up again that sucks, ya know?  Must be terrible for the Mrs.! I'm getting older, and just this past  year, the legs have really started to go.  Not to mention the brain! I can only do 15 or so 1  legged squats, (?) and I have to hold onto a vertical pole to do any at all.  (?) does the misses know?   I'm 58.  And that's just your IQ!   :Shuriken:

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## welderguy

> I can most certainly run with 50 lbs,  So if we pay you 50 pounds will you run off & leave us alone? it's the going prone and bouncing  up again that sucks, ya know?  Must be terrible for the Mrs.! I'm getting older, and just this past  year, the legs have really started to go.  Not to mention the brain! I can only do 15 or so 1  legged squats, (?) and I have to hold onto a vertical pole to do any at all.  (?) does the misses know?   I'm 58.  And that's just your IQ!


OMG that is too dang good, thanks for the laugh.

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## Wise Old Owl

> *I'm not disputing your info here as I think it sounds very reasonable but, I'm just wondering why, with all this information available that they, themselves generated, does the Army continue to have soldiers shoulder 100+ lb packs?*]


....................................

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## canid

there are necessities in military work that do not translate directly to civilian action.

if, as a soldier, you are trained to perform to a certain standard with the 20-50lb of supplies and equipment you are likely to need in a given situation, and not more, to what standard will you perform when you must do the same while moving an m240 and a belt or three of 7.62 you hadn't planned on being to one to carry? or your 200lb buddy who isn't currently ambulatory?

i'd rather be prepared for that situation in advance, and be glad i'm only carrying a lighter load at that moment and the inverse under those circumstances.

if you aren't likely to need to perform like that in your own circumstances, you might not want to subject your only body to that kind of wear in training/condition after all. you still have the option to do so if you should choose.

how much sense it makes is all about the perspective your looking at the situation from.

also: the armed forces will pay for your hernia opperation, where the parks department/forest service where you where hiking/training would not.

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## Gilmore

eh i won't leave my house for anything... its like a stronghold we have literally a bank vault full of guns and ammo (if needed ill post pictures it is 11 tons) and enough food for an army... we have 2 ATVs and 3 Trucks... we also have 2 generators with enough fuel for 900 hours uninterrupted... we even have a clean creek behind our house and we are 1/4 of a mile off the road in heavy cover... UPS has trouble finding our house from the road and i live in a very rural area next to our school so i would be able to escape from my house to the school.. i would say i would have my gun and my knife and thats all if i did need to leave everything i would just take my .243 and my .45 pistol.. with every round we have and i would survive so my BOB would be about 1# without my gun haha

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## Survival Guy 10

> That is the politically correct term for "Shoot 'em and loot 'em", the actual plan for most "survival experts" on the internet.


but are they really experts or just twelveyearoldbuggerpickers from detroit :Oops:

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## beetlejuicex3

My 3-day "BOB" weighs about 19.5 lbs with 2L water.  Lightwieght is a must.  Less calories burned, less chance of injury, less fatigue, can move further, quicker.  

If people are going "ammo and camo" that is their choice.  It is what they are familiar with.  As other posters, I wonder if they will garnish unwanted attention.

Hey Sarky, what's an "INCH"?

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## Beans

> That is the politically correct term for "Shoot 'em and loot 'em", the actual plan for most "survival experts" on the internet.
> 
> Two MREs and 1500 rounds for the black rifle, preloaded in mags with no known BOL or sanctuary site.  The black rifle is the tool of necessity for "living off the land".  
> 
> Without combat gear a BOB is nothing more than a backpack, and should be reguarded as such.   An adult in excellent condition, meaning they workout with their loaded pack two of three times a week, has a recomended limit of 20% of their body weight.  The average person, who THINKS they are in good condition shoul pack 15% of their body weight and plan to discard unnecessary items for the first day of travel.
> 
> In other words, an inexperienced packer will pack what he thinks he needs and by the end of two-three days he will have what he actually needs.
> 
> For every pound of rifle, ammo, zombie blade, comm gear and body armor, food or some other necessity must come out of the pack.  You do not just keep piling in "necessities" you can not live without.  
> ...


Just curious. Did you weight the pack when you were finish. After 7 days your water and food weight would have diminished and your pack should have been lighter.

It like carrying wood to your fire pit. You carry the wood that is further away first, so as you get tired you have less distance to go.

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## sushidog

Well, after I left the Army, I used to have 2 med. ALICE packs (1 for DW) loaded with all the usual gear (food, water, navigation, NBC, meds, etc.) which I estimate around 40lbs each w/o weapons and ammo. But, and this is the big but I was young and dumb.

About 13 yrs ago I realized the foolishness of my plans or lack thereof. My BOB devolved into a security blanket and nothing more, so I got rid of it and adopted an entirely new survival mind-set. My mobile bug-out strategy has evolved over the years as my physical abilities decline and my threat assessment changed with the times. I started with the minimalist motorcycle/atv mindset, progressed to a light weight tactical vehicle (1/4 ton) and finally what I consider an urban stealth rig (a pop-up camper pulled by an inocuous high MPG/range tow vehicle.) Like Harry Calahan said in the movies, "A man has got to know his limits." I realistically rejected the "romantic" notion of the glory of eternal youth and accepted not only the physical limitations of me and my family, but planned on maximizing our chances for a long-term survival scenario, including establishing mobile communities allowing use of the principle of specalization to maintain some form of a trading civilization that could quickly disolve, go to ground and reassemble to reduce the chance of becoming a target of an aggressor force. 

To make a long story short, our 80lbs of BOB capacity have evolved into a fully mobile long-term survival shelter capable of carrying and storing several hundreds of lbs of survival essentials, including extra food, fuel and water, as well as many basic tools, luxury, comfort, safety and hygene items.

Chip

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I weigh all my options with an electronic fish scale. Weighs up to 50 pounds and scale reads in hundreths of a pound. there are other scales in ounces and metric but I don't use them. Good conversation piece around the fishing hole too although it really does not matter how much a fish weighs. It does cut some of the fish stories down to size.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I have the exact same scale AS! Does work well to cut the BS and has officiated a few tourneys. I never weighed my pack just used it....

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## OhioGrizzLapp

A pack that has everything to include the kitchen sink has not been well thought out. Heavy packs only serve as a bonus for anyone that finds you and regardless of how ammo & camo prep'd you think you are, there is ALWAYS someone BETTER than you and Murphy works in such a way that you will either find them or they you at the worse possible moment. 

My BOB weighs in at exactly 12 lbs (3 people for up to 2 weeks w/o re-supply). It is the knowledge I take with me that will have us survive. Pre-planned back woods routes with way points inbetween with small caches laid and mapped to get from point "A" to point "H" with the way points being B, C, D, E, F, G on three different but interchangeable very out of the way routes and destination(s) including alts. These are not trails, they are just well laid out routes that avoid mass transit or civil controlled directions. 

Do I need an EBR (Evil Black Rifle) or a SIG, Glock or any other buzz worded firearm........Noooooooo, they will only draw attention to yourself. Do I advocate weapons, yes, what kind is my concern not anyone elses.  I/we fully K.I.S.S'd our entire plan as trained to do and have actually worked and used them a few times to learn of kinks, issues & location of obsticals, taking notes that things change and often. This was done fully with thoughts of pressure points, someone following or running into people on the way by accident. We have fallback positions, re-routes as well as hold points that can be implemented at a moments notice. Many details I have left out here, but it is what we have done for US. 

Is this paranoid, no, by all means no. It is being prep'd for human and mother nature. It is no difference than buying insurance on your home, car and health. It is just a form of self insurance. 

The basics and the knowledge of your packs full use is what in my opinion a person or group needs to survive. I do not advocate electronics or smart gadgets as they tend to fail or need power where there is none at the worse moment. 

After all of this blabbering.... YOUR pack needs to be made for you and yours, what you think you need and put in it, fully needs to be done for you and yours. If you lack the  resource to gather foods and water, then yes, you need to take it with you. If you lack the ability to protect yourself and yours w/o 3 guns, grenades and their ammo or accessories, then by all means, take them with you. The more gear you take is just more gear that can fail in my opinion and having simple fall backs for failed gear is just as important as having the main gear in the first place. 

Knowledge..... more than gear is what you should take with you. Planning rather than running amuk with 50-60 pounds of gear is where you need to be at. Going bright or subdued, truly a personal decision. Knowing how to do both in an instant I think is more important. 

Where we live and our routes to get to where we are going are full of wild/domestic food, water, shelter and safety in the multitudes (back ups to back ups), so there is no need to take those items with me or us. 

The two basic things you need, no matter what..... is a good knife and/or the knowedge to know how to make them expediently and the knowedge or gear to make fire. After that, all gear is a luxury. With those two items you can have food, water, fire, shelter, comfort and safety. 

All of the above IMHO. ..................Learn it, Plan it, Work it and adjust as needed.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I prepare for all of it. That preparation includes training and thorough testing of both myself and gear. I have been getting help from guys trained in SERE methods. One thing I recently incorporated from there philosphy is an on person kit and always on you so it won't get seperated from you. This is mine.

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I then have a "Just in case" kit. I use it on casual day hikes but not knowing what can happen I have the bare minimum for my survival at that same time not wanting to load myself down with gear to enjoy my hike. It weighs in at 4.84 pounds and can be worn over shoulder, on belt or lashed to a pack.

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My serious LBE kit is and has been tested for all 4 seasons. I work with it weekly. It weighs 9.34 pounds and capable of indefinate survival through the seasons. If I'm to live with just what I can carry this is it

Being worn at -35

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Thrown off for a short break on the River at 20 degrees

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And I carry a small stuff sack to strap excess clothing on back in warmer weather.

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## sushidog

Well I may be the odd one out, but most kits I have seen don't provide for the thing we need most urgently - clean air. I can go without food for weeks, water for days, but how hong can you hold your breath? If there is a chemical spill from a plant/rail/or truck accident, or a deliberate chemical/biological attack what will you do without a gas mask (w/extra filters) for everyone in your family? Does your mask have eyeglass inserts to drive and shoot? Many predict the next terrorist attack will either be of this nature, or will be a radiological attack from targeting a nuclear power plant or from a dirty bomb. Are you ready from the fallout of a direct nuclear strike? Can you say Ahmadinejad or Kim Jung Il? Don't think this is a likely enough scenario to prepare for? How about tear gas or pepper spray during a riot control situation? What if you need to go through an area where such crowd dispersants are in use? I'm sure everyone is watching news lately - nuff said. Do you have a MOPP suit in your bag? How about potassium iodide, atropine or decon supplies? Some survivalists have or can easily make chemical weapons. How close a group can you hold, or how well can you drive with pepper spray swelling your eyes shut? And this is the least you will have to contend with. Will you be ready?

One can't be absolutely prepared for every contingency, especially with a small BOB, however when I believed in them, mine had all of the above preparations. I can find the means to make fire and find a knife, maybe even make a field expedient MOPP suit, etc. (though my kit had these preparations) however, do you want to try to make a field expedient gas mask while holding your breath? Just a different perspective.

Chip

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## Rick

I'm sorry but unless you've been specifically trained in the use, care and storage of a gas mask then it's simply false hope. What is the life span of your filters and how often do you change them out? Do you have facial hair? There is a LOT more to gas masks than just buying one and putting it on. When I worked outside one of the areas we covered was a petroleum refinery. Since I was the low guy on the totem pole I had to work it and I have to keep a clean face and I had to go through all the training for gas masks. 

Did you know that unless you have a positive atmosphere inside your mask the rubber seals can pass certain gasses? Yeah, they go right through the rubber like it wasn't even there. That's why firefighters have a positive atmosphere on their tanks. They used to be demand until a bunch of New York firemen found out the hard way the rubber seals don't necessarily seal. Gas masks included.

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## sushidog

> I'm sorry but unless you've been specifically trained in the use, care and storage of a gas mask then it's simply false hope. What is the life span of your filters and how often do you change them out? Do you have facial hair? There is a LOT more to gas masks than just buying one and putting it on. When I worked outside one of the areas we covered was a petroleum refinery. Since I was the low guy on the totem pole I had to work it and I have to keep a clean face and I had to go through all the training for gas masks. 
> 
> Did you know that unless you have a positive atmosphere inside your mask the rubber seals can pass certain gasses? Yeah, they go right through the rubber like it wasn't even there. That's why firefighters have a positive atmosphere on their tanks. They used to be demand until a bunch of New York firemen found out the hard way the rubber seals don't necessarily seal. Gas masks included.


Yes I agree, like any piece of specialty survival equipment, it is worthless unless you are properly trained in its use. I think that 9 years in the Army (left as a Capt.), going through frequent gas mask drills and even conducting NBC training qualifys me to operate one. In fact, I still have my old protective mask card in my wallet (along with my old weapons card.)  :Smile: 

I have the M-15 Israeli model. The civilian model comes in child sizes. The infant model uses a positive pressure container, but it's pricy and hard to find. I like the Israeli design because it uses the std. NATO filters. (The newer NATO masks have drinking tubes too.) I keep 2 sealed filters on hand per mask. Un-opened they will last 10 years or longer (they are guaranteed for 5yrs from the date stamped on the filter, but in reality will last much longer, just at slightly reduced efficiency of the activated charcoal, reducing the time you can remain exposed, which shouldn't be an issue). After opening, they're good for about 6 months, depending on storage conditions. Obviously there are different filters for different agents, however the general filter (green ring) is best for overall use, not the one designed for blood agents (red ring.) Do not get the black ring filters as they are designed for tear gas training only - unless that's what you perceive the threat to be.  :Wink: 

As you correctly stated, the seal is the most important thing. That's why everyone should go through a tear gas chamber to test the seal and effectiveness of their mask. There are different sizes and styles so you should see which fits you best. Yes, I try to stay clean shaven - a 1/4" beard may prevent your mask from sealing. You do keep a razor and soap in your bug out kit, don't you? BTW did you know you can go to a pharmacy and get an ana-kit (basically a atropine self injector similar in function to the military nerve agent antidote.) Just tell them that you are allergic to bee stings and you want to replace your old unit.

Chip

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Gas masks are probably a worthy consideration in LA but I won't need them here. I don't carry a snake bite kit either. Your environment determines a lot of what you carry.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

Sorry Sushi, but a gas mask requires dang near a NEW filter every 24 hours of constant use, especially in a high contaminated area. I am very familure with the typical M-15 as well as other masks from around the world to include the USA's. You do NOT test it by going through a gas house, you test it via a testing liquid that turns to a banana or other flavor/smell gas. Each filter if you are getting REAL filters will come with the testing liquid. It takes approx 20 successful on and offs of the SAME mask to become proficient in their use. 

IF you are in a possible zone for a chemical/bio attack and need a mask, then you better get the proper training on its use, regardless of what mask you get. Even if you have good military training.

You will need a new filter for each 24 hour time. That is under perfect conditions. I am not sure if you are carrying a suitcase for a BOB or not, but those filters take up mega room, weight and precious time to use. If you are trying to qwell a mental fear, sure, grab a mask and a tyvek suit, but for the most part, they will be unusable. If you are below the rank of a City Mayor, do not even think resupply will be available. 

If you think that in an emergency, general public announcement, you are DRIVING anywhere, you truly are kidding yourself. Both Katrina and Texas proved that theory WRONG, does not matter if you have an 4x4, ATV, horse or motorcycle (motorcycle being the most viable way to avoide the crowds), a horse will be just as suceptable to the same bio/chem/nuke agents as you are. Shanks Mare (on your feet), will be the only viable way out and using that, you will NOT be able to do more than 10-15 miles a day with a loaded pack over 20 pounds unless you are in PERFECT health and condition. 

The Atropine NEEDS a valid script, although not a bad idea to have a set in your BOB. They are NOT free and you cannot just walk up to a pharmacy and get one... you need a valid script and also a script that will cover you for at least a year to manage expiration dates. They will not just hand you one because you say you used one and needs replaced w/o a script. 

I am NOT a huge believer in prep for Nuke/chemical/Bio attack. By the time you find out that those types of attacks may have happened, you are already exposed, especially for chem/bio. It can be going on right now or 5 days ago and NOBODY knows until the ER's fill up. In a dirty bomb attack, the amount of radiation sent into the wind is NOT enough to really harm you, it will be used as a scare/panic tactic. The actual explosion will do more hard damage than the dirty nuke radiation will do. Are you going to have the use of a decon shower.... how will you pack that, even the suits are not all that small and easy to use w/o proper training. If you are thinking a Tyvek coverall, then you better worry about the O2 supply as well.....NOT a gas mask.  At the very best, grab some HIGH quality surgical masks (the purple ones, not the white or blue ones) for a bio.

FACTS, not fiction will be what saves you. Planning and sensible prep will be what saves you, NOT time and use sensitive gear. There is a reason most realists (not survivalists) do not grab this gear up. Weight, actual use, time sensitive gear and the likely hood of actual successful use is very slim at best. Do NOT do what the military and authorities are doing, they are headed into the fight, you need to get away from it. 

Spend the money and time on water prep, not air prep. It is much easier to poison mass amounts of water  and food supplies undetected than it is to poison air. Worry about the major few incidents and not the minor many. Water, food and curing medicines are truly what you need to worry about and at that, the most efficient for YOU to manage. 

I am NOT attacking YOU, I am attacking and disagreeing with your thinking/planning and sense of likely hood of those scenarios actually happening and the FACT bases you are using. 

I will agree with Atropine and anti-bios like Cipro to have with you, low space, low weight and both easy to administer in an emergency (even the IV meds) as long as you keep track of the expiration dates and rotations, especially for Atropine. 

Plan your route to get out of dodge and how you will do it... all roads will be closed to either actual traffic jams or closed by authorties to try and direct traffic where they want it to go.... even the back roads. READ actual evac plans for your local, state and fed and then see where you fit. Also remember the 2 million other people that are thinking the exact same thing you are. Go to calguns.com for a hearty laugh if you are in Cali, AZ, NV, Oregon.... as those 10 million people will all be headed the same way with all their evil black guns. You will realize FAST that you need a UNIQUE plan, not the same plan to get out of dodge like everyone else has. If you think sewers, safety/interment camps.... rail lines and especially air travel.... so has those 10 million folks. Same goes for MOST large city areas. If you think rural canyons and caves, be preparred to share them with many other people (Katrina Dome). Same goes for National and state parks, they will be tent cities with each group there having an EBR and the buzz guns of glocks, HK and Sigs and most will have itchy trigger fingers. 

Sorry to rant here, it is just when people say their plan includes a vehicle out of town because all the gear they plan to carry is too much to carry by shanks mare, it almost makes me mad & sick to my stomach as that plan is FUBAR before it even starts and you and yours will die or get seriously hurt trying to impliment it.   

What do I have planned... well that is my business and is only shared with fam and friends. 


Steps off my soap box, grabs a milkshake and stops ranting.......

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Bugging out by vehicle will work as long as it's done before things get bad. I'm kind of surprized the cities are not emptying out now. With so many ways this can go anybody making claims it is going be this way and only think that way can be wrong a 1000 different ways.

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## OhioGrizzLapp

You are very correct AS..........if the typical survivalist waits, he/she will be SOL. So many variables it is not even funny.

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## Rick

The plan is to move the lower 48 to Alaska in case of an event. Do you have an extra room?

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## sushidog

Thanks for your different perspective, Ohiogrizzlapp. I'm posting here just to give some others my perspective. Maybe they will increase their chance at surviving more that the immediate few days/weeks after an event. As I said before, I don't believe in using a BOB. It is not adequate for my families needs. BTW I am a Katrina survivor. Yes it did take me 3 times as long to evacuate using my vehicle cause I waited too long because of work, (I evecuated for Gustav too) but I was still able to cover 500 miles on the interstate (a foolish choice in retrospect, which I didn't use on return - as parts were blocked or destroyed) but I was still able to cover over 500 miles in under 12 hours including taking family, pets, and a quarter ton of survival gear. Could you do that on foot? How about burdened with a family, and all the baggage that brings? What if you or a famliy member are disabled and can't ambulate for long distances? Will you just leave them behind? 

A agree that your survival plans depends on your threat assessment, largely determined by where you live. We have chemical plants/oil refineries and storage facilities everywhere as well as ship loads of chemicals being carried up the river. This is not to mention all the chemical trucks on the highways and train loads of chemicals criss crossing everywhere. Maybe some would like to turn a blind eye to the threat, but if I were a terrorist, one of these would surely be my target. As far as the life of the filter, I don't plan on breaking out a new filter and using it just long enough to evac the area, maybe an hour at most, so filter life is irrelavent. That's why I said that shelf life is not an issue for me. Unlike military ops, which I am very familiar with  :Smile:  my mission is to DD to safety, not conduct mil. operations in a contaminated area. Yes, my bug-out camper has a shower which can be used for decon. My family (including 3 pets) lived in it for a week during Gustov - a real survival scenario (not to mention numerous 1-2 wk camping trips,) so yes, I have tested my plans. Have you "camped" in a tent in the mountains indefinately where it rained every day and froze every night while people were trying to kill you? I have, and believe me, I don't want to live that way again. I might survive such a scenario, but it is unlikely my family would. "A man has to know his limitations." and I'll add the limitations imposed upon you by others who are dependent on you. Do you have elderly parents or grandparents you are responsible for, how about children, infants or pets? Do any have medical problems or health issues? All these things need to be taken into consideration when making practical survival plans. 

As far as testing your mask, I know there's the right way, the wrong way and the Army way. Your way may be better in a lab, but I know mine works in the field, cause I've used it. Why argue the best way to test a mask if you don't even have one? That's like arguing which rifle is better when you only have a slingshot? The best survival gear is what you have, are practiced with and are confident in its use and limitations.

Come to mention it, the first time I got an Ana-kit I had a script, but I merely plunked my old container on the druggists counter for a no question asked replacement when it expired. They say you need a precsription for many things these days, but I'm sure many don't. (Though I'm certainly not advocating or condoning any illegal activity.) Funny you chould mention Cipro and other antibiodics. They are illegal to possess and use without a script as well. See previous disclaimer. I certainly don't possess anything even remotely illegal.  :Wink: 

Having a unique evac plan is important, but not as important as having an evac plan that actually works - protecting your family long-term, ultimately enabling you to prosper at some point, not just live another day. Just try running away from a hurrinace on foot and let me know how well that works out for you. IMHO I'm sure that in this free land we can agree to disagree and still get along. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. I'm comfortable with my choices. When I make mistakes, (as I have for over half a century) I try to learn from them and improve. My plans continue to evolve the longer I live. Arrogance can be fatal.

Chip

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## OhioGrizzLapp

I am disabled to the life lessosn I have received and I fend for myself. Less reliance on gear, more reliance on knowledge. Yes, I have stayed in cold as well as hot places, places that you would not even dream of. Sad to say I and the others with me had no tent or 70lb packs to rely on and yes the weather crapped on us........for weeks at a time. 

If you are comfy with more gear than knowledge or even more gear with knowledge, then so be it. 

My way of testing masks were in the field and it is the propper way if the threat is real. 

To be honest, I am a cold heart and realistic.... if someone attached to me were disabled and could NOT fend for themselves in a *REAL* scenario, then yes "Left Behind" is a kind way to put it I guess. I will not have domestic animals with me, they will get you killed or worse. I do not rely on a group or combined knowledge. 

I have seen and been part of many evacs in a few countries. I have read the evac plans for my city, state and feds for my area. They are unrealistic and unworkable as they are now. Mostly because they expect people to do what they say. 

Like I said, I was not KNOCKING you, but was knocking the unrealistic plan and ideas you laid out. At some point, YOU run out of masks/filters, relying on them in the first place is not a good plan. Did you plan for rubber eating agents in the attack materials.... MOST modern "Agents" have anti-poly agents in them along with the actual bio/chem being spread. A company called "Ruther Mold," in Akron Ohio (current Mfg for USA, Canada and some other ally countries Gas Masks) did a study on some of the anti-poly agents and at best, the masks from 17 countries (we also tested our enemies masks) being currently used and supplied to our and their military will last 3 HOURS, not days. They turn into crumbs and powder.  

I will leave it alone for you and keep the knowledge I have..... I just really think your plans and ideas are not sound and will cause deaths, rather than save lives. 

If you cannot survive with a really basic BOB.....that honestly makes me sad for you and yours that are depending on you.  

Good Luck and hope it all works out for you & yours and I really mean that. 

If you get a chance, read a book called "Out of the Ashes," by William W. Johnstone, just the first book, not the rest of the series, early printing if you can find one......maybe that will rattle some trees for you.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> The plan is to move the lower 48 to Alaska in case of an event. Do you have an extra room?


Depends how much stuff you are bringing.

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## BENESSE

@OGL...
Different strokes for different folks. The destination is survival, _how_ we get there will have to be the way _we_ know best.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> The destination is survival, _how_ we get there will have to be the way _we_ know best.


I Absolutely Agree! I think people will be surprized how much of what they already know will give them a solid foundation to figure out the rest. You never cease to amaze me how many things you know I had to figure out the hard way over the coarse of my life. You're a natural survivor Bennesse.

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