# Survival > Bushcraft Medicine >  Hunter-gatherer heart disease

## kyratshooter

It appears that we brought heart disease out of the caves with us.  So much for healthy diet and exercise.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-10-20-16-55

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## jfeatherjohn

Life isn't always fair...that's for sure.

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## mountainmark

Just think of all those mummies with hardened arteries........Wait a minute...They are mummies. Wouldn't they all have hardened arteries??? Jeeze, I could be an archeologist....doctor....type person. Lol,  :Wink:

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## hunter63

What ever you do, you ain't getting out of this life....alive.

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## kyratshooter

Yep, No one promised you would live to 100 and be rich.

I have already outlived the life expectancy of my grandfater's generation, and that of my father.  I have already survived what killed 2 of my GGfathers while they were in their 50s, which was the topic of this article. 

When Social Security was instituted in 1938 life expectancy was 56.  Today if we do not make it to 100, and are not stil going line dancing every Saturday night at that age, we feel "cheated".

Can you imagine just a few years back, when people strived to live to 50?

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## hunter63

The seems to be a pattern here....I read the paper morning (What?...Paper?)....the obits or on the from page.....with ages.

Has turned into a daily..... "Ah Ha....Well beat that one, so far....or 97, seriously?...why would you want to put up with all this for That long...?."

The one that make it past 55 and go to the Dr. seem to carry on a while, but there are a lot of, "never been sick in their life" that keel over around 55 or so..Lost a BIL to sudden heart attack at 56...that don't get care, or ignore their signs and life style.

No one is gonna live till 100 and be "rich", as the cost of health care will break most everyone long before that.

It will be there.. but not affordable to the masses.....kind of a round about way to put SS back in the black....
I'll stop as it's gonna get political from here on in.....but you get the picture.

I get a kick out some of the so called ancient diets....eat grass and live for ever.....That would suck!...Why would you want to do that?
....and by reading that posted article....didn't do them any good anyway.

"Waiter.....I'll have the king prime rib, rare and bleeding....mushrooms and fried onions, big baked potato w/ sour cream and bacon pieces...... and another beer......"

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## crashdive123

Oh goodness gracious....ya mean to say I gotta learn how to line dance?

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## Wildthang

It's a proven fact that if you live long enough you will die :Scared:  But honestly, the hunter gatherers ate meat, and meat has fat which tastes good and adds flavor, so it stands to reason that they ate some fat!
Poor bastids didn't have all of the great junk food we have these days so I guess fat was probably their junk food!

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## hunter63

> It's a proven fact that if you live long enough you will die But honestly, the hunter gatherers ate meat, and meat has fat which tastes good and adds flavor, so it stands to reason that they ate some fat!
> Poor bastids didn't have all of the great junk food we have these days so I guess fat was probably their junk food!



.....and they lived all the way into their 20's.....

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## kyratshooter

> .....and they lived all the way into their 20's.....


Yea, but the reason they only lived into their 20s was because what they ate killed them....if they wounded it and pi$$ed it off.

And they had their own form of junk food.  Fruits and berries with occasional honey.  Oddly enough, that "healthy" stuff has high carb content and sugar out the wazoo.  

Can't be good for you!  Look what it did to Adam!

They also craved salt.  Most of the stone age settlements are near salt sources.

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## Power Giant

I took a class a couple of years ago at the public library about hunter gatherers. There was a chapter on teeth and gums. The hunter gatherers of today (of which there aren't a whole bunch left) were the test subjects. Turns out they have alot better teeth, jaws and gums than we civilized folk. It was attributed to a lack sugar in their diets and having to chew their food a helluva lot longer than we do. Gives a whole new meaning to "chewing the cud". (Or chewing the fat?)

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## Wise Old Owl

Cant top a good article - but BED BUGS developed a taste for us 100,000 years ago when we were favored over bats in caves... there is a genetic small difference of a Bat Bug even today!

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## BENESSE

> No one is gonna live till 100 and be "rich", *as the cost of health care will break most everyone long before that.
> It will be there.. but not affordable to the masses.....*


That in itself should be the most compelling motivator to take care of your health before you are forced to. If not to live longer, then enjoy a better _quality_ of life (however long you live) exercising prevention, not being dependent on intervention.

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## hunter63

> That in itself should be the most compelling motivator to take care of your health before you are forced to. If not to live longer, then enjoy a better _quality_ of life (however long you live) exercising prevention, not being dependent on intervention.


True....too bad we have to Pay for it anyway.......I'll stop there.

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## Rick

The article doesn't take into account the number of heart attacks experienced by hunter gatherers when they turned around and found a Saber Toothed Tiger standing there or a Mammoth with one foot raised. There is just so much science doesn't cover.

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## BENESSE

That's why we have you.

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## kyratshooter

> The article doesn't take into account the number of heart attacks experienced by hunter gatherers when they turned around and found a Saber Toothed Tiger standing there or a Mammoth with one foot raised. There is just so much science doesn't cover.


Like I said, sometimes their food did kill them!

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## Phaedrus

To be fair, humans had lived a domesticated life of agriculture for several millennia by the time of the Old Kingdom period of Egypt began.  A huge part of the human diet (in that part of the world) was grain, especially wheat.  Grinding wheat on stones introduced sand into the flour and wrecked their teeth.  Mummification as a funerary custom (done in the manner of ancient Egypt) was the product of an advanced agrarian society.

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## hunter63

Quote>Humans had lived a domesticated life of agriculture for several millennia <Quote.....because of beer.

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## Wildthang

Oh man, can you imagine life without beer :Scared:

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## endurance

> Yep, No one promised you would live to 100 and be rich.
> 
> I have already outlived the life expectancy of my grandfater's generation, and that of my father.  I have already survived what killed 2 of my GGfathers while they were in their 50s, which was the topic of this article. 
> 
> When Social Security was instituted in 1938 life expectancy was 56.  Today if we do not make it to 100, and are not stil going line dancing every Saturday night at that age, we feel "cheated".
> 
> Can you imagine just a few years back, when people strived to live to 50?


Ironically most of the advancements that led to the 1911 average of 48 to the current average of 77 came from refrigeration, childhood vaccinations, and antibiotics.  The end of life care we've developed really hasn't improved the quality of life we had 100 years ago if you were a president or other person of means.    

Look at Thoreau's family.  His sister, Sophia, died at age 56.  His brother John died of Tetanus at age 26.  Helen died at age 36.  Henry died at age 44 from TB.  Despite having better than average means, three out of four of the siblings died before the age of 50.

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## mountainmark

> I took a class a couple of years ago at the public library about hunter gatherers. There was a chapter on teeth and gums. The hunter gatherers of today (of which there aren't a whole bunch left) were the test subjects. Turns out they have alot better teeth, jaws and gums than we civilized folk. It was attributed to a lack sugar in their diets and having to chew their food a helluva lot longer than we do. Gives a whole new meaning to "chewing the cud". (Or chewing the fat?)


Weston A. Price has a great book on this subject called "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" Worth the read.

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## Phaedrus

> Ironically most of the advancements that led to the 1911 average of 48 to the current average of 77 came from refrigeration, childhood vaccinations, and antibiotics.  The end of life care we've developed really hasn't improved the quality of life we had 100 years ago if you were a president or other person of means.    
> 
> Look at Thoreau's family.  His sister, Sophia, died at age 56.  His brother John died of Tetanus at age 26.  Helen died at age 36.  Henry died at age 44 from TB.  Despite having better than average means, three out of four of the siblings died before the age of 50.



This is an excellent point and something people don't think about much.  It's not like the "cavemen" died at age 33; their average lifespan was estimated at 33 years.  This was because infant mortality rate was very high and any injury could be fatal.  It's not like a 60 year old would have been considered a witch!  If you didn't die before the age of 3 and didn't get killed during a mammoth hunt you may well have seen 50.

Modern medicine has done an amazing job at trauma care but so far not one chronic disease has yet been cured.  Cancer prognosis (at least for late stage cancer) isn't much better than it was in the 50's.  Heart disease can be mitigated with mechanical parts but hasn't really been cured.  Diabetes can be managed but there's no cure.  Certainly there's been some advanced stuff (eg transplants) but some stuff isn't really much improved.  If we don't curb our use of antibiotics we'll soon be back to the 50's again...the 1850's!

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## Bushman

Some 30 odd years back I studied philosophy..........(for which I apologise...) and one of the points raised was that 'every-thing-changes'.....particularly so-called 'Science'. The world used to be 'flat'.............and naturally was  the 'centre-of-the-universe'..................THIS was 'science'....and also 'religion' for some..........and also 'immutable FACT' !!

No-one around then was going to argue the toss........'of COURSE the Earth is FLAT............everybody KNOWS THAT !!'

and its the same for 'Medicine'......for 1000's of years we've had 'experts' touting this cure or that and pronouncing on the latest health fad or diet......and 'what is GOOD.........and what is BAD' for us pore iggereant fools.........

and mostly we 'believe' them............or used to..........

the main benefit of the Internet is that the average Joe NOW has access to VAST amounts of 'information'.......some of it 'good', some 'bad'.........some 'useful'..........some 'not-so-useful'.

What HAS happened is; that now, we are much more sceptical than we used to be, whether its 'politics' or 'science' or 'medicine'...the world is full of so-called, or self-described 'experts..........and most people can suss out a BS artist when they see one, simply because we _now_ know, or have access to so much more 'instant information' than did our parents and grand parents.

Some things we 'intuitively know'...........such as the posted article, which says that, 'ancient people had atherosclerosis'....This sort of thing is what I call 'Universal Knowledge'...........or perhaps 'Common Sense'........the 'Experts' would have us believe that it is all due to too many MacBurgers or whatever..........but just as many people smoke heavily all their lives and NEVER get Lung Cancer.....or Heart Disease, so too does this apply to many other 'lifestyle choices'.

But NONE of this stuff is 'new'............In a like manner 'global Warming'  ain't 'new' at all.....its been about for billions of years, 'Things-Change'.....whether or not it is 'caused' by 'mankind' is a moot point......and one argument I'm NOT going to get into...........In the long run, it doesn't matter a damn............'What happens...is 'what happens'.............whether its 'the weather'....or 'humans battling disease'........or War, or 'Natural Disasters'...or 'Man made Disasters'..............this is just 'Sh*t-that-happens'..................and there is no point in getting your knickers in a twist over it.

I DO 'believe' that we 'interfere' too much with 'nature' (or 'things-as-they-are') and make too many 'POOR CHOICES', for our own good.........and they come back to bite us on the ***......like building houses in flood prone areas, or fire prone areas, or having a too high 'stocking rate' in Cities...........whereat certain elements go 'feral' and form Gangs and Tribes and start causing mayhem.  Its not 'necessarily-their fault'.  Its what's called the 'too- many- rats- in -a- box- syndrome'.  But so far no-one, has come up with a 'cure' for this particular 'disease' apart from War.

So, despite the passages of millennia, we STILL have to cope with the common lot........Birth, Life, Illness, Suffering & Death.........there ain't no avoiding it.......And countless millennia from now, no doubt there _will_ be, 'new Experts' mouthing off about how WE lived, and being amazed that we too, had 'heart disease'..............

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## Phaedrus

I dunno, Bushman...If there are still people in a couple thousand years and they learn what we actually ate they'll probably be stunned that we didn't all die of heart disease in our 20's!

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## kyratshooter

I am reminded of a scene in the movie Black Robe.  In that scene the old Indian recieves a vision that he is fated to die in a certain way at a certain time.

His words are not what one would expect.  He does not beg for life or attempt to aviod the situation.  His statement is;

"If I had know this I could have been a great warrior!"

His time was not up until it was up and he felt that nothing would have killed himuntil he was fated to go.  

I think of all the people that put their kids through profound misery "raising them healthy" when the things they are attempting to avoid are genetically common to all of mankind.  Kids need carbs, fats protien and amino acids for energy and growth.  Our present epidemic of "childhood obesity" is not as much from the food we eat as from the lack of exercise today's kids are subjected to.   

when I was a kid we used to run around the block a couple of times each day just to see who would win.  It was not uncommon for us to ride our bikes 20 miles a day and out favorite hideouts were about a mile from the house and we might make that trip two times a day.  At the end of the day, after dark settled, we chased each other around playing kick the can or tag until forced to come inside.

That does not happen any more.

In my own case remember the days when I could eat as much as I wished of any food available and sought out certain foods to cure craves.   

I have now discovered that I must avoid certain foods to remain healthy.  I must avoid other foods to maintain comfort.  I must eat other things to insure balance in my life, and lastly I must take two or thre pills that nave no nutritional value but assist my body in processing part the very chemicals that my body creates, like colestrol.

Yesterday I was reading about a man that had a heart attack almost 70 years ago.  It did not kill him but he was an "invilid" for the remainder of his life, fighting chest pain, shortness of breath and lack of energy.  Now we have an angioplasty, take a blood preasure pill and a colestorol inhibiter and go on with our life.

It is the pill that extends our useful experience, not the diet.  Even my cardiologist does not eat what he tells me to eat!

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## hunter63

If you look a foods to be avoided when one has to deal with gout (been a bad winter here for that).....about the only things that are not on the list, is oatmeal and Snickers bars, but spit out the peanuts in the Snickers.......

I do believe it's about moderation in all things, and the ability to keep moving.

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## postman

The Egyptians were not hunter gatherers, they were farmers. They ate grains and grain fed meat just like we do. The only true hunter gatherer remains are skeletel that date back past 10,000 years ago and according to Anthropologists they were far superior health wise than we are today. The advent of agriculture is according to experts the single most significant detriment to the well being of the human species.

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## JPGreco

> It's a proven fact that if you live long enough you will die But honestly, the hunter gatherers ate meat, and meat has fat which tastes good and adds flavor, so it stands to reason that they ate some fat!
> Poor bastids didn't have all of the great junk food we have these days so I guess fat was probably their junk food!


They also ate the liver and other organs that people would run from today.  It was also all cooked over a fire, which causes carcinogens.  I swear, the more I read, the more I'm convinced you have to have ZERO common sense to be a scientist.  We have people today that lead healthy lifestyles and die of heart attacks and heart disease and then we have morbidly obese people who smoke, drink, and eat bacon every day and live longer than average people.  Since people died young way back when, it wasn't heart disease that killed them.

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## BENESSE

> They also ate the liver and other organs that people would run from today.  It was also all cooked over a fire, which causes carcinogens.  I swear, the more I read, the more I'm convinced you have to have ZERO common sense to be a scientist.  *We have people today that lead healthy lifestyles and die of heart attacks and heart disease and then we have morbidly obese people who smoke, drink, and eat bacon every day and live longer than average people.*  Since people died young way back when, it wasn't heart disease that killed them.


There are exceptions to just about everything if you're looking to justify poor choices.
But all this prep stuff we talk about here doesn't begin and end with acquiring the right stuff and skills. It includes your body and mind.
On the other hand if you like to gamble, save your money and don't prep. Sit back in your Lazy Boy with your smokes, a six pack and a deep fried spam with bacon sammich and take your chances. Don't worry about those extra 50-100lbs. _You_ just might be one of the lucky ones to live to be a 100 and die of nothing.

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## Wildthang

No matter what you eat, or what you do, a long life is not guaranteed. So I just live as clean as possible and pretty much eat whatever I want to. I have known so many health freaks that honestly seemed to worry themselves to death with what to eat, how to excersise, avoiding germs, how to live blah blah blah. And a lot of them died at an early age so go figure!
Most really old people that i have known learned how not to worry, and ate whetever they liked. I think stress and worry ages us worse than anything else!

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## kyratshooter

PBS is having their 'begathon" this month and on Saturday it included several health/nutrition experts.

In one 2 hour period I was told the 7 foods I should avoid for a long life.  Most of them were pure absurdaty and the woman sounded like an old fasioned snake oil salesman peddling her new book.  She was actually making up medical terms and informed me I had a leaky gut and peanuts were poison!  

In the next hour a wormy little man, also the author of a book, came on and told me about the foods I absolutely HAD TO HAVE in my diet to survive in the 21st century.  

His first four foods were in the group of 7 that the previous witch doctor told me I should not allow in my house!

Then some bald headed fat guy (I can say that since I am a bald headed fat guy) came on and told me all I needed for a long life was inner peace and confidence.

Finally some georgeous Irish babe came on and started cooking real food, so I stayed on that channel for the reainder of Saturday night.  

The Irish Babe got my attention with a caremal and chocolate tart so I called in a donation and got her cookbook.

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## hunter63

> _You_ just might be one of the lucky ones to live to be a 100 and die of nothing.


...
I think that would suck......to just die of nothing......?

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## BENESSE

> ...
> I think that would suck......to just die of nothing......?


Take my word for it...it wouldn't suck at all. To go to sleep feeling good and never wake up would be a blessing. Mr. B's grandmother at 86. I would shave off a few years of my life to be guaranteed that that's how I'd pass on.
But hey, different strokes. Some people like a challenge in that respect. I don't...I've seen too much.

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## hunter63

We are dealing with MIL right now 90, in a home.....and not fun......
Just struck me funny......

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## Wildthang

My mother lived to be 95 years old, and was very afraid of dying. Her last 4 years was spent in a rest home where she did not want to be, and fighting my sister and I to take her home for the entire 4 years, and also worrying herself silly about dying. So Nessie is right, just going to sleep and never waking up would be a blessing, even if it was 3 or 4 years sooner! Those last few years almost always suck!

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## Walking Bear

Let see who got to be mummies? The Rich Royalty.     Who ate what?  The best of the best.  The fatted (grain fed) calf if you will.    What did you do all day? Sat on you fat butt while others waited on you and brought you your food and wine!

 If you are a hunter gatherer what did you eat; what ever you could gather (Fruits, Berries and some wild grains) and meat that was lower fat than grain fed beef.  You also walked miles and miles hunting and gathering.

Now did we bring it out of the cave or did those mummies the CTed get it the same way we do today?  Earn it by being stupid in the way we live?

I vote lifestyle!

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## BENESSE

Couldn't agree more, Walking Bear.
Bottom line: Gotta burn more calories than you take in, plain and simple. How you go about it is your business.

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## Batch

> The only true hunter gatherer remains are skeletel that date back past 10,000 years ago and according to Anthropologists they were far superior health wise than we are today.


I'd have to hear why you say that? What about some of the tribes in the Amazon, Papa New Guinea, or even South Florida. The Calusa, Tequesta, Jeaga, Jobe, Mayaimi, Ais, Mayaca, and Jororo to name a few in Florida that still didn't use agriculture after Europeans landed here in Florida. Down south there wasn't even trade for chert. they used teeth and bone for cutting tools and some times only fire hardened hardwood tips for arrows and atlatls.

Even through the Seminole Wars you could see how our positioning of cut of forts to gathering lands for coontie and hunting lands down south dominated our strategies. These Seminoles were Creeks that had lived in villages for centuries. But, the land determined whether to farm or hunt and gather. The funny thing was that coontie mills were what allowed folks to settle and trade with the Seminoles.

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