# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Gardening >  Winter indoor garden

## wildWoman

Excellent that there's a homestead board now!!! Hey here's a tip for those out in the boonies, where and when fresh veggies are hard to come by in the winter. Transplant your tomatoes, Swiss Chard, chives etc into containers and move them into your cabin. If kept by a large south-facing window they'll keep on growing, how much depends on the amount of light. Veggies like chard, spinach and lettuce that do better with short daylight are probably the best plants. But plucking a ripe tomato off the vine in January is a nice thing, too!
Anybody here also doing this?

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## hillbilly1987

hi well i havnt yet but i will give it a try thanks for the info

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## Rick

No I haven't but in truth I have been thinking about it. We put a sun room on a couple of years ago and I was eyeballing some space last week trying to figure out what items that belonged to my wife I could move out. All of my stuff is critical to the overall balance and pleasing aesthetics of the room. 

Store bought tomatoes are just crappy even in the summer and don't hold a candle to my garden ones. I hadn't considered lettuce or swiss chard but was thinking about some radishes and herbs. 

I'll discuss this with my wife right after she asks where her stuff went.

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## wareagle69

first year on the homestead= first year of growing a garden.
i was reading today that i should start my plants now in the hose then transplant in the spring

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## nell67

yep,tomatoes,lettuce,broccoli,cauliflower,peppers,  cabbage,anything that you would transplant,needs to be started now,some people around here even start cucumber plants in March,and transplant those too,but I think they grow fast enough anyway to worry about starting them early to transplant.

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## Rick

WE - You can sew leaf lettuce, spinach and radish seed on the ground just about any time you want. I sew them on Valentine's Day even if there is snow on the ground. The seeds won't freeze and they will germinate as soon as the ground is warm enough. All three are hearty, early plants that are best before warm weather. I've never messed with sewing indoors. The only other seeds I sew are green beans. For the rest, I plant starter plants that I purchase.

If you want to start them indoors, now would be the time to plant seeds. Check your zone so you know when you can move them outside. Generally after the last frost if it's a big garden. Smaller gardens can be planted earlier and then protect the plants when frost is forecast.

A four foot fence can be erected in your garden to use as a trellis. Climbing plants like green beans or peas do very well on a trellis. Of course you can use long poles as well. Someone mentioned in another thread the value of the "three sisters" corn, beans and squash. 

I use a bagging lawnmower and my clippings go into my garden as well as leaves. Not only do they serve as a great barrier against weeds, they supply a lot of nitrogen and other nutrients for your garden. You might also think about a compost pile. It's an easy way to fertilize your garden, doesn't smell if you stay with green and brown yard wastes, conserves water in the garden and prevents the soil from becoming compacted.

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## Rick

Here is a good article on growing plants inside in the winter. While it's geared for house plants, the advice can be used on indoor garden plants just as easily. 

http://www.alive.com/52a1a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=135

I added some additional information to my post above.

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## trax

I probably learned more about gardening in ten minutes or whatever it took to read these posts than.....well, it's good folks, thanks to all.

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## Sourdough

WildWomen, and anybody else, How do you keep Moose out of the garden??? Some here use Irish Spring soap. My garden is a 1/4 mile from the cabin, and gets raided by Bears (Black and Brown) and Moose.

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## trax

> WildWomen, and anybody else, How do you keep Moose out of the garden??? Some here use Irish Spring soap. My garden is a 1/4 mile from the cabin, and gets raided by Bears (Black and Brown) and Moose.


moose in garden=meat in freezer  :Big Grin:

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## nell67

> moose in garden=meat in freezer


Yes,exactly!!

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## Sourdough

> Yes,exactly!!


"Man does not live by Moose alone", I need some greens. They even eat the potato plants.
And the Bears love the Barley and Oat seeds, they lick them off the ground.

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## wareagle69

how do i keep mosse out of the garden? well usually he's in the barn or out back in his pond he's not big on garden greens loves blueberries though can't keep his snout out of my basket keep telling him to pick his own but i think he thinks it;s too much work so he just slobbers over mine

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## wildWoman

We invested in electric fencing around the garden, compost and duckhouse area. Didn't have any moose or bear problems but we love having wild critters around the property and figured the best way to keep up friendly relations is to securely keep them out of trouble spots. It's not a huge expense, about $150 or more for a fence zapper that works on grizzlies, and does a lot to enable us to live with wild animals in a good way. I'd highly recommend it. Also for people less remote, it'll keep dogs from snacking on chickens or whatever else you have. The fence is powered with a car battery and very small solar panel.

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## wareagle69

ok just planted seeds in peat moss containers 8 each tomatoes carrots spinach, and lettuce. set each container in a flat with a couple of inches of water in the bottom. the tomatoes i put three seeds in eack cup the carrots a few two for the spinach and a few for the lettuce.

question though i understand where tomato seeds come from but what about the carrots lettuce and spinach

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## nell67

> ok just planted seeds in peat moss containers 8 each tomatoes carrots spinach, and lettuce. set each container in a flat with a couple of inches of water in the bottom. the tomatoes i put three seeds in eack cup the carrots a few two for the spinach and a few for the lettuce.
> 
> question though i understand where tomato seeds come from but what about the carrots lettuce and spinach


The plants will "go to seed" if they are not harvested,which means they will flower out,then grow seed pods on them.

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## Rick

All will bolt or produce seeds if you allow the plant to grow long enough. Spinach and lettuce will send up one tall shoot that will grow a head of seeds. Here is a picture of spinach that has bolted. Leaf lettuce looks very much the same. 

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Here is what the carrot looks like when they flower and go to seed. 

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## wareagle69

so then do you leave the bolt alone and dry the seeds out for next year?

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## Rick

WE - I keep my seed packets in the fridge and they are generally good for +/- three years. I don't save the seeds from the plants. That let's me turn all my plants into food. 

One packet of leaf lettuce, for example, will last me about 3 years. By then I've generally used all the seed. (that's a LOT of leaf lettuce seed). I generally sow a row about two feet wide and 4-5 feet long. That will produce a LOT of leaf lettuce and doesn't take much seed. Far more than my wife and I will eat and I wind up giving it away. Same for spinach, radish, etc. 

If you want to collect the seeds from the plant then you would either collect the seeds as they loosen or collect the seed head and let it dry (depending on the plant).

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## nell67

You can wareagle,but not if the seed is a hybrid.

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## Rick

Great point, Nell. Hybrids are sterile. 

My green beens I allow to grow on a fence in the garden. I harvest all of them when they are about 4-5 inches long, blanch them for 3 minutes, ice them to stop the cooking process then freeze. I can harvest every other day for beans. If you have wild animals or dogs then you want to stay away from bush beans. They have little tiny hairs that will collect and hold animal hair. So if you dog walks through the garden your whole crop of bush beans will be ruined. Climbers don't have the hairs but most do have a string (hence, the name string bean) that runs down the seam of the bean. If you want until they are longer than 4 inches the string will be very tough and you will have to remove it from each bean. 

Squash or cucumbers or zucchini can be harvested and you can dry and save the seeds if you like. 

My tomatoes I buy the plants and I look for plants that will produce throughout the summer. I look for an early bearing variety, mid variety and late so I have tomatoes all season. I have fiberglass fence posts that I use in the garden and the tomatoes are staked to the posts to grow. You can also blanch tomatoes and freeze them as well for use in spaghetti sauce, etc.

Look for heirloom plants if you want some of the best flavors. Today's plants have been engineered to produce pretty fruit at the cost of taste. Heirloom plants are generally the older generation plants that might produce an uneven or uglier fruit but has a much better flavor.

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## wareagle69

how do i know if its a hybrid? some of the seeds say heritage on them but we bought all the seeds cheap like .33 cents a packet i see some going for 2.49 a packet whats the difference?

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## Rick

Heritage and Heirloom mean the same thing. Heritage generally applies to animals and Heirloom to plants but they are plants that have been around for a long time. You might have found that same plant in a garden in 1870 Virginia for example. While it has been grown to bring out certain traits such as disease resistance or a particular hardiness for a geographic area, they are sustainable. You should be able to harvest viable seeds from those plants.

I've seen definitions that say heirloom must have been passed down in the same family and others that say the plant type must be 50 or 100 years old. I just call it a grand old plant.

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## wildWoman

Wareagle, just a tip to transplant the seedlings when they get too big for the pot they're in. I'm very bad at this and always end up with crippled because soil-starved plants, and by the time I can put them in the greenhouse or garden they're so far behind that it takes them a long time to get up to speed. Problem is we don't have much space in the cabin to stash all these pots of seedlings.
One thing that we always do is we have a "trial" garden bed where we experiment with different veggies or varieties. Just a few plants, that way if the new stuff is a failure you're not stuck with gigantic amounts of it.

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## Rick

You will want to thin your seedlings to a couple of strong plants. For the tomatoes, you will want to thin again once you have one really strong plant. Start setting the seedlings outdoors about a week before you get ready to plant them so they can acclimatize. Bring them in at night if it's cold are chance of frost but let them sit out in the sun during the day. When you plant, just peel the moss of the bottom of the container or at least part of it and pinch some holes in the sides and plant the whole container. If you have any in plastic, of course, you'll have to remove them. But moss or other biodegradable containers will rot in the soil and pinching holes in the sides will give the roots a nice chance to take off long before the pot rots.

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## Rick

Here is a great link that will show you how to test your soil for soil type. That's important to know because different types of soil hold moisture better than others. 

http://www1.umn.edu/webdd/prepcare/soiltype.html

For those in the States, you can have your soil tested at your County Extension Office. Now is a good time to do that. For those of you in Canada, I assume the Ministry of Agriculture will perform similar tests but I don't know that to be true. Just my guess.

Here's a link to all the Extension Offices in the US. 

http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/

A link to the Master Gardener information in both the U.S. and Canada

http://www.northerngardening.com/extension.htm

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## bulrush

I tried doing a hydroponics experiment. I tried growing lettuce from seed on floating pieces of foam with holes in them, in my fish tanks. The lettuce sprouted fine but quickly grew too leggy, because it was too warm in the room (about 70F). So I tossed the experiment. 

This room is closed from the rest of the house and has its own room heater. The tanks must be kept at least 70F so I could not cool down the room just for the lettuce.

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## Rick

70F? That should be fine for lettuce. Did the plants have access to sunlight or a grow light?  If not, that might be why they became leggy. I would think leaf lettuce would do better hydroponically than head lettuce from a weight perspective. Just some thoughts.

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## bulrush

They did have their own light fixture but perhaps it wasn't bright enough. It was not a special "plant light" but a regular flourescent light for fish tanks.

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## Rick

Flourescent lighting is great for seedlings but mature plants need more light. You might try a 6500 Kelvin T5 floursescent bulb. They put out more light than standard flourescent bulbs and don't produce much heat.

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## coldkill13

> WildWomen, and anybody else, How do you keep Moose out of the garden??? Some here use Irish Spring soap. My garden is a 1/4 mile from the cabin, and gets raided by Bears (Black and Brown) and Moose.


I live in Michigan so I really dont have much of a problem with the moose... However the deer, racoons, and mostly, groundhogs, love tearin up my precious plants :Mad: ! I find that the best way to keep these pesky critters out of the garden, that I work so hard on, is .223, or .22. Sometimes I use a little 12 guage or a 44 mag, but that seems like overkill to me. For moose I would recomend .308 or 30-06. If your looking to put em down in their tracks, you might try a .50 cal!

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## coldkill13

But seriously, I got bout 4 racoons, 4 groundhogs, and 2 oppossoms this summer. I put a live trap out with a little fish scraps in it overnight and catch racoons, never fails! I leave them out there till mornin and I set up with my .22 and a bipod and wait. Almost everytime, believe it or not, a groundhog will come out of its hole and taunt the trapped racoon first thing in the morning. I pop him and then I go pop the racoon and dump em in the compost pile. Leg traps, though illegal, work very well for racoons, thats when the .44 comes into play... My dad has some great racoon stories but I'll save them for later to conserve space! If you trap in the winter, you can keep the pelts, otherwise, the ticks and fleas wont jump off the body and you'll end up with lime disease ( Thats why I put em in the compost heap ). I would try eating these varmints but my pa wont let me for fear they'll make me sick. If you've ever read any Foxfire books, they're excellent books by the way, you may have seen recipes for the strange critters and their inards. If you have any recipes for me let me know! Also I am just getting into coyote trapping and hunting to try to thin them out. They're really taking a toll on the deer population and I can use all the advice I can get on exterminating them. And finally, I was wondering if anyone knows any ways of growing and harvesting yeast, yes, yeast. I want to get into wine-making but yeast is the one thing I dont know how to acquire on my own, if indeed it is possible. Any good wine recipes or tips on making wine are greatly apreciated as well!

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## Rick

Cold - That's cold. I don't kill anything I'm not going to eat. Coyote are a valuable part of the ecosystem (did that sound too treehuggy?) and will keep the deer in check. You have a deer problem in Michigan as does the rest of the country because 1. They've lost their natural predators and 2. There's an abundant food supply. Think twice about taking out the coyote. You'll have the deer in your garden, too. If it's small enough, put up a fence to keep the critters out. 

I don't toss anything into the compost pile that isn't brown or green vegetation. It goes into my garden and I don't need rotted carcases in there.

For growing yeast, you'll need a medium to grow it in. Sourdough starter is just that. It's nothing more than a medium for the yeast to grow in. OR....there are a number of sources of wild yeast. Wild grapes and berries have a white powdery substance on them. That powder is actually yeast. Wild yeast. Here's a great article on wild yeast. 

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Moder...ild-Yeast.aspx

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## coldkill13

Rick, I think I may have left something out. We built a fence to keep the deer out of the garden but the racoons and groudhogs have dug under it. We'll put a rock in their hole and they dig a new one. It's them we shoot in the back yard, not the deer. The problem we have with the coyotes is that they're destroying our deer population. There's carcasses all over and the hunting is going down the drain. There is no wild rabbits, quail, pheasants,  and very few squirrel left to hunt. The coyotes are outnumbering the deer and the DNR wont do anything about it. As for the varmints, haven't you ever had racoons tear up your garbage or groundhogs tear up your garden? Do you ever trap or shoot them _and_ eat em? We used to live trap them and relocate them but at the current price of gas it aint even worth it. I would use them for fur or meat but, as I said, my old man wont let me cause of the diseases and ticks they carry.  If you've got a better idea thats cost effective lemme know. But hey, I didnt come up with this name for no reason...

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## Rick

Touche'. Good name. The only problem I've had with raccoons is they raid my bird feeders. They must play baseball with them because they can tear them up faster than a squirrel. I have rabbits and raccoons that get in my garden but the generally don't do enough damage to warrant any intervention. I try to protect the young plants 'cause the rabbits will chop them right off.

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## coldkill13

Heck ya man. I cant even begin to tell you how much money I've lost on seeds and plants, especially the beans and tulips. Dang I gave up on the tulips now. Between the groundhogs and rabbits I'd come out of the house everyday all summer and find our flower garden rampaged so bad its as if the NFL had hosted a game in my front yard. I dont know why I even had flowers in the first place, I'm now replacing them with vegetables. And about the birdfeeders, I end up making a new one every six months or so. One day I put in the fat scraps from dinner and later on we hear some fumbling on the deck. I grabbed my gun and popped in a clip, turned on the outside light, and went outside to find the feeder in pieces with racoons scattering everywhere. I managed to get one of them, but thats not even the worst they've done. One time I went out fishin and caught some little rock bass and bluegills for my aquarium. I'd had my aquarium on the deck to wash it so I just stood it up, filled it up, and put in the fish and an airator in it. I forgot to cover it up  and by morning our deck was covered in water, scales, and racoon sh*t! I was so ticked off---Thats when it became personal... I immediately set all my traps and went on the hunt. To this day I've never let em live that down.

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## coldkill13

Oh and on an interesting side note, It was that year that I'd got my highest kill score...

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## wildWoman

> I live in Michigan so I really dont have much of a problem with the moose... However the deer, racoons, and mostly, groundhogs, love tearin up my precious plants! I find that the best way to keep these pesky critters out of the garden, that I work so hard on, is .223, or .22. Sometimes I use a little 12 guage or a 44 mag, but that seems like overkill to me. For moose I would recomend .308 or 30-06. If your looking to put em down in their tracks, you might try a .50 cal!


Electric fencing, electric fencing, electric fencing is all I can say regarding deer, moose, coyotes, wolves and bears. It works, doesn't cost much, is extremely low maintenance, and you don't have to go around maiming wildlife.

Hey coldkill, if you have problems with deer in the garden, I guess their numbers can't be all that decimated by coyotes. Could it be the ever-expanding human population that wants venison for dinner that's to blame?! Just a thought....

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## trax

There's an overpopulation of deer across North America because of the decimation of predators, not the other way around. Anyplace they say that coyotes are outnumbering deer never had deer in the first place.

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## Rick

See! Trax knows.

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## trax

I do? I thought that was the Shadow...{{who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!}}

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## coldkill13

> There's an overpopulation of deer across North America because of the decimation of predators, not the other way around. Anyplace they say that coyotes are outnumbering deer never had deer in the first place.


Actually the hunting around here used to be excellent. Its strange; the deer population in suburban areas are skyrocketing while the more rural areas (like those we hunt on) are severely declining. I guess it's not really "strange"; its actually somewhat understandable. And I will say this, the coyotes aren't soley to blame for this, the DNR are also guilty(But the coyotes aren't helping! :Mad: ). A few years ago, the DNR took a survey of the local deer population at a nearby metropark . Their results were flawed because they took this survey right smack in the middle of deer hunting season. The metropark is touching a state owned "recreation area" as they call it, which is really a big piece of public hunting and fishing land. The recreation area is touching our land. So while hunters are actively pursuing game on this land, the deer are flocking to the metro park--a no hunting zone. It is estimated that their rusults could be over 50% off. So, in an effort to protect an endangered plant species in the metropark, the DNR ordered a team of sharpshooters (And yes, when confronted they will tell you they hired _sharpshooters_) be called in to "thin out" the deer heard. They had dumptrucks full of corn hauled in for bait and the sharp shooters were ordered to kill any deer they had a shot at. Keep in mind all this was being paid for by _our_ licence fee's. They, apparently, could not have simply installed a game fence or an electric fence around their precious plants. Thats what happens when a bunch of tree huggers get in the DNR. And dont get me wrong, I believe in land conservation and well regulated wildlife management more than most, but a mass extermination of these deer is not the right solution to the problem. While they were willing to put so much effort into saving their plants, they wont do anything to help prevent the coyotes from destroying what deer we have left. Why wouldnt they have just issued more doe tags the next year to help manage them? And heres a better question; Why not host a hadicapped/disabled hunt at the metropark? They could actually have _made_ money off that! The park has paved trails so it is quite easily handicapp accessable. We need to get some good-natured folks with some common sense in the DNR. Heck, maybe I'll rethink my career!

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## coldkill13

> Electric fencing, electric fencing, electric fencing is all I can say regarding deer, moose, coyotes, wolves and bears. It works, doesn't cost much, is extremely low maintenance, and you don't have to go around maiming wildlife.


How would an elctric fence look around my flower garden in my front yard? Besides the neighborhood bylaws do not allow elctric fencing to be installed. Even if I could, what if they dig under it? Plug their holes? They'll dig new ones! And that means maintenance to me... And by the way, I'm not "maiming wildlife", I'm actively trying to manage the out of control varmint population in my area. The manner in which these animals are killed is also completely humane (unlike most "humane" shelters that gas dogs and cats if they cannot find a home for them).

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## Rick

Or......use an invisible fence like the ones they use for dogs and then get collars for all the raccoons, weasels, gophers, groundhogs, cheetahs, rabbits, squirrels...you get the picture.

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## trax

Just a couple of thoughts

a. I don't know diddly about what the deer population is in the suburbs cuz I don't live in a suburb but I wouldn't be surprised if they're moving in...who isn't?
b. Wildlife doesn't need management except when people start interfering with them
c. Every study I've ever seen done on predators affect on wildlife populations,has concluded that the wild predators don't have near the effect that mankind has.
d. I'm really glad to hear you don't maim wildlife...nothing could piss me off more.

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## wildWoman

> How would an elctric fence look around my flower garden in my front yard? Besides the neighborhood bylaws do not allow elctric fencing to be installed. Even if I could, what if they dig under it? Plug their holes? They'll dig new ones! And that means maintenance to me... And by the way, I'm not "maiming wildlife", I'm actively trying to manage the out of control varmint population in my area. The manner in which these animals are killed is also completely humane (unlike most "humane" shelters that gas dogs and cats if they cannot find a home for them).


Glad to hear you're not maiming wildlife, actually I didn't mean that as a personal remark but the "you" as in "people" since this topic came up before in other posts! I just know too many people up here who shoot at moose with a shotgun or .22 when they get into their gardens, and it ticks me off.
Actually electric fencing comes in different versions, some of it looks like ribbons not wire, and if installed low in enough, animals will get zapped as they attempt to dig under it (guess voles and gophers wouldn't, I mean anything from cat size up). Do the by-laws allow for you to shoot animals within a populated area?
Also could the deer's habitat be shrinking because it's being ripped up, paved over or sprayed with herbicides?
I don't mean to say you're wrong and I'm right, I've never set foot in the area you live in, I just prefer to find ways to co-exist with critters whenever possible rather than shoot or trap them, and not necessarily find fault with them for whatever makes a problem for me. But I also set traps for mice and voles in the garden and greenhouse.

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## Rick

You go girl. Bzzzzzzt. Ow! Da**ed fence. You gotta do something about that or I'm gonna stop comin' over! (rubbing his leg and limping).

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## trax

> Also could the deer's habitat be shrinking because it's being ripped up, paved over or sprayed with herbicides?


Oh yes. Agriculture, mining, forestry, urban sprawl, it's not just the deer's habitat getting shredded; it's the deer, the coyotes, the moose, the muskrat, the beaver, the wolf, the eagle...me!

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## coldkill13

First of all, shooting at an animal with no intent to kill it is just wrong, infact I'd consider that torture. Have you ever contacted the DNR about the problem with people shooting at the moose? The DNR in Michigan is near useless but I still contact them about poaching whenever I witness it (Which is actually quite often, and even though they know exactly who it is since he's a convicted felon and he has been caught poaching many times before, they still do nothing). Every animal I shoot, I shoot with the full intent of killing it as quickly as possible. And no, the by-laws do not permit us to even discharge a firearm in our neighborhood, but they also do not permit trapping(lethal or non-lethal), fencing, etc. Their rules give us very little options for taking care of these pests. While electric fencing may be more 'humane' , its also easier for my neighbors to detect than an occasional single shot. 

Secondly, of course the depleting deer population is partially because of human interaction, but they have well over 1000 acres of unsettled land in just one single clump next to our property. This land is supplemented with apple trees, oak trees, pines, fileds, ponds, and constant feeding. None of this land is sprayed with herbicides or pesticides, and none of it is mined or logged. I'm not trying to say that people aren't doing more harm than good for these animals, but this land has gone virtually unchanged for the last 50 years. Up untill now, the deer have maintained a fairly large heard and the hunting has been excellent. In many areas of the country, people are more to blame than anything else for the destruction of habbitat. But here, I believe it is more to blame on the coyotes (and the DNR).

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## trax

I'm not trying to pick on you here coldkill and your points are all valid, but  you're talking about 1000 acres. I was talking about 7,000,000 square miles and  obviously there's plenty of wild lands left, but our encroachment on those areas isn't exactly slowing down. Just a quick for instance, moose in northern Manitoba are starting to be found with diseases that were specific to deer in southern Manitoba for as long as people kept track of that sort of thing.This after two power grids are cut right across the bottom two thirds of the province. These things happen over a generation or two, but they still happen.

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## coldkill13

Alls I was trying to say was that the coyote and varmint problem in my area is getting out of hand. Maybe it _is_ because of people taking over their habitats. Maybe its because theres not enough people around here that practice active game management. But more likely it's a combination of both. I mean, theres no doubt about it; we took their land. But theres no reason that we cannot live in harmony with them(Eww... That sounded way too Hippie!). This means effective wildlife management, land conservation, and active particiapation by hunters and outdoorsmen alike. We'll never be able to stop urban expansion, but we can set aside land just to provide a habitat for wildlife. While the 1000 acres I mentioned above refers only to a single clump of land near ours, I see your point. Untill we unite and take action against the destruction of habitat, I have no choice other than to take matters into my own hands in an effort to re-estabolish a balanced ecosystem.

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## Rick

or to keep them out of the garden, whichever comes first. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## trax

No argument out of me coldkill, but yeah you were starting to sound a little Hippie there for a bit, LOL (constantly monitoring myself for that) I just don't see it happening, people don't unite for much of anything, can't see past the ends of their own noses, nevertheless....

The critters are going to try to get at your garden because it's their nature to eat, I certainly think you have a right to protect your crop. And if I didn't eat wild meat I probably would have starved to death a number of years ago, so I sure don't criticize anyone else for hunting, but I do believe in one shot one kill. (well except for birds and a shotgun, one shot multiple kills)

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## bulrush

> Rick, I think I may have left something out. We built a fence to keep the deer out of the garden but the racoons and groudhogs have dug under it. We'll put a rock in their hole and they dig a new one. It's them we shoot in the back yard, not the deer. The problem we have with the coyotes is that they're destroying our deer population. There's carcasses all over and the hunting is going down the drain.


Coldkill, I don't understand why you are killing coyotes because, in the lower peninsula (LP) there are major deer problems and overpopulation. Are you in the western UP? I think that's the only area with coyotes. 

The situation is so bad that even auto insurance companies are concerned because there are so many car-deer accidents each year. Please please please come to the LP and shoot as many as you want. 

At my previous house the deer were the biggest (animal) problem, eating most of our bushes during the winter.

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## coldkill13

> Coldkill, I don't understand why you are killing coyotes because, in the lower peninsula (LP) there are major deer problems and overpopulation. Are you in the western UP? I think that's the only area with coyotes. 
> 
> The situation is so bad that even auto insurance companies are concerned because there are so many car-deer accidents each year. Please please please come to the LP and shoot as many as you want. 
> 
> At my previous house the deer were the biggest (animal) problem, eating most of our bushes during the winter.


No, I'm not in the western UP, but believe me, they're not the only ones with a coyote problem. I've heard that the overpopulation of coyotes is more of a problem in our county than any other in michigan. Infact, my instructor made it one of his "In the news" topics awile back. I cant even remember the last time I've heard of a car accident involving a deer in our area. Deer used to be a problem in our garden, but a bright white painted wood fence around it seems to deter them completely.

Theres people in our neighborhood that have pictures of a coyote with what appears to be a cat in its mouth. I've also been  seeing an increasingly growing number of 'lost pet' signs around our neighborhood. You cant deny that coyotes are known for attacking pets. Like I said in an earlier post, the coyotes arent the only reason for the decline in our game numbers, but they're a major contributor.

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## wildWoman

:Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  how did we get on to this topic anyway?? It started as an innocent post about growing veggies inside the house....hey, there's the solution right there: no critters will get to them  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

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## canid

unless you're one very poor housekeeper...

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## Sourdough

WildWomen, You might check out www.bearridgeproject.com He is doing several post on food plants.

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## wareagle69

well to continue with the real topic here my lettuce spinach and tomatoes are now sprouting now what do i do?

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## Rick

You want to thin them to the strongest tomato plant. If you don't, they will crowd themselves out. It's easy if you just snip the plants off with a pair of scissors. That way you don't disturb the root ball and/or any roots that might have grown together. Here's a link that talks about it. 

http://growing-tomatoes.blogs.com/

As for the spinach and lettuce, same thing. 

Are you growing leaf lettuce or head lettuce? 

Depending on how big your spinach and lettuce sprouts are, drop the cuttings in a salad and enjoy. You'll be eating your first harvest!!

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## wareagle69

so you are telling me that where i put more than one seed per peat cup was a waste then? cuz some of the cups have four or five sprouts coming up

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## Rick

Not a waste. You want to make certain that the seeds are viable and sprout. You'll have some duds in any package (not many) and you'd hate to plant one per container and wind up with a half dozen empty containers. You could have put two seeds per container and probably been just fine. If you plant seeds in the garden, you do the same thing. Only there you want to make certain they have room to grow and aren't sowed too close together. Better to have too many plants than some barren pots.

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## rrsnook

wow how forunate I joined this forum when I did, I just planted hybrid tomatoe,squash,beans,lettuce,pepper and corn in the little peat containers yesterday. The question I have is, on the packs they say seeds will germinate in approx 7-10 days, is this when they sprout or approx. how long do I have before I transplant then.

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## crashdive123

> wow how forunate I joined this forum when I did, I just planted hybrid tomatoe,squash,beans,lettuce,pepper and corn in the little peat containers yesterday. The question I have is, on the packs they say seeds will germinate in approx 7-10 days, is this when they sprout or approx. how long do I have before I transplant then.


Can't tell you "how long" for the stuff you've planted, but maybe this will be of help.  Talks about the "size" of your seedlings and some other helpful tips.

http://www.mrs.umn.edu/pyg/tips/soil...tip_1115.shtml

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## Rick

Good link, Crash. RRSnook, it will vary with each of the plants. But the link does a nice job of explaining the transplant. 

I sowed leaf lettuce and spinach seed yesterday (I'm actually about a month late this year). I tossed the seed on top of the snow. As it melts the seeds will settle down on the soil and when the ground warms up they will sprout right up. No guess work, no trying to figure out when to plant. Radishes work the same way. I've done it for years and I've never had a problem and always have a very healthy crop of spinach and leaf lettuce. I usually plant them on Valentine's Day but I was out of seed this year and couldn't find any. 

Any seed you have left over, just leave in the package and place in the ice box and the seeds will be just fine for the next few years. I've planted seeds that were three and four years old that had been stored in the ice box and the seeds remained viable and produced good plants.

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## rrsnook

thanks for the link and the info. My collards,lettuce,beans and corn are spouting, still waiting on the tomato,peppers and carrots. i'm very excited though wish me luck!

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## crashdive123

Good Luck.

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## Rick

WE - I sowed my leaf lettuce and spinach last Monday. I sowed the seed on top of the snow. As temps warmed this week the seeds settled into the ground as the snow melted. It's also a great way to sow grass seed, by the way. Just spread the seed on the snow and let it melt in.

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## warman87

> I do? I thought that was the Shadow...{{who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!}}


i havent heard that in so long ty for the memories the shadow still lives lol

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## Rick

Hey WE - My spinach and leaf lettuce are up. Little green sprouts are poking their little heads through the soil. I planted them on March 10 so that will give you some idea how long it takes for them to germinate and break through. Like I said, you can sow your leaf lettuce, spinach and radish seeds right on top of the snow and when it melts they will settle right into the soil.

You can sow your grass seed the same way. Sow it during the last snow fall and it will be well watered from the snow and settle right in.

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## Rick

Here is a good site on organic gardening and using heirloom plants:

http://www.helpfulgardener.com/

Heirlooms are really making a comeback because their flavor is so much better than those bland things you find in the store. Burpee's has a whole selection of heirloom plants and seeds: 

http://www.burpee.com/category/veget...scend&page=all

Here are some from Park Seeds:

http://www.parkseed.com/webapp/wcs/s...egetables%20AS

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## crashdive123

Just got an order of heirloom tomatoes from QVC that TDW ordered.  9 seedlings in 5 varieties.  I think I'm going to have a whooooooole lot of tomatoes.

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## Rick

I have flower beds around my house. This year I'm going to move out of the garden and try some plants in the flower beds. I'm going to add some additional edible flowers as well.

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## wildWoman

Getting ready to harvest the first salad greens - spinach, komatsuna and arugula. I planted them inside the cabin in a large container, I think in mid or late February, and now we're enjoying fresh salad while the snow is still knee-deep outside. Will start these veggies even earlier next winter, I think.

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## Rick

Can't you keep them going year 'round? First time I had heard about komatsuna. I had to look it up. Sounds interesting. I'll have to try that.

Ooops. Forgot to ask, WildWoman. Did you grow them under a grow light or use a south facing window? It's nighttime up there isn't it?

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## wildWoman

I'm still experimenting with the year-round growing. Chard works excellent, I dig it out of the garden in fall and transplant it into the cabin. In the winter, the problem is the lack of light and low temperatures at night by the window, but salad greens should work just as well as the chard. We just built an extension to the cabin last fall, so now there's more space for plant containers inside and I can try more stuff besides chard and tomatoes.
No we don't have grow lights other than the sun. We've already been gaining light like crazy; there's direct sun on the lake from about 8am till 8pm, and what with dawn and dusk we're at about 15 hours of light already and gaining more daily.

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## Rick

Thanks!! You've inspired me to start indoor gardening. The wife and I laid out out an outdoor plot around the house today to incorporate edibles in with the flowers. We're going to use containers for gardening outside so they can be brought inside and we are going to try a year round indoor garden. We have a sunroom on the north side of the house and a large south facing window so we have plenty of light for them to grow.

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## wildWoman

I'm sure that'll work great for you guys! Sounds like you have a perfect set-up for it. I'm trying some winter squash inside the cabin this year (to harvest in fall); don't really see the point in cutting cords of firewood for the greenhouse when we can grow stuff inside the cabin where it's warm anyway. Not sure if winter squash makes willing container plants, though.

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## crashdive123

WildWoman - not that our climates are even remotely similar, but containers is all I ever use for my squash.

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## Rick

Crash - Do you grow them inside? How do you control the vines? Winter squash is a great deal like cucumbers in that they put out tons of vines and can cover a large area. Summer squash is usually more compact. More bushlike.

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## crashdive123

I don't grow them inside (no point with the length of our growing season).  Rather than explain it, let me run outside and snap a quick pic.  Be right back.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> I don't grow them inside (no point with the length of our growing season).  Rather than explain it, let me run outside and snap a quick pic.  Be right back.


sweet. I was just trying to picture how to do this. A picture would definitely help.  :Big Grin:

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## crashdive123

In another post I talked about a product called Earth Box.  I tried one and was amazed at the difference in productivity.  They were a bit expensive for my taste, so when I found plans on the internet to make your own.....they work as good as the $60 boxes and cost less than $10 to make.  Here ya go.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## wildWoman

Oh that's great, crash (and it's all so GREEN there...oh well, just another 8 weeks and it'll be the same here!  :Frown:  )I see we're both using the same containers. Maybe I can trellis the vines along our bookshelf. Do you use commercial fertilizer on them? We have manure tea from the ducks and compost on the veggie menu.

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## crashdive123

For the squash (not pictured) I plant 6 plants in the box (3 on each side) with a fertilzer stripe (about 2 cups) running down the middle.  I have also used 5 gallon buckets, but didn't get nearly the volume of squash that I do with this set up.

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## crashdive123

Here's the design that I used.
http://www.josho.com/gardening.htm

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## wildWoman

Thanks crash! I also just went on the Earth Box site, that's really interesting with the fertilizer strip in there. Do you think putting raw duck manure in would be too stong? Another idea for homesteaders and log builders is to use the bark from peeling trees as mulch in the garden. Works as well as plastic IMO and is of course biodegradable.

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## crashdive123

Not sure about the duck manure.  I know that one of the cautions was to use unfertilized soil because of the way the watering system works.  Acts more like a slow time release.  I guess some experimentation would be the key.

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