# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  Are alice packs worth it?

## Traditionalist

I currently use a red rock outdoors engagement pack and I like it however it's a little small and lacks a real frame. I'll do a review if anyone wants on the red rock. Are the extra weight worth it for the medium alice pack with frame? Are they more durable than nylon? Are the frames comfortable?


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## natertot

If you use the search feature, you will find all kinds of ALICE info.

I am a fan of them. People that are under 6' tall and are of small to medium build seem to be the ones that find them comfy or at least tolerable. Those that are bigger, taller or broad shouldered usually complain of shoulder and neck pain. I have small, medium and large ALICE packs, some with frames and some without. Some are genuine milsurp and others are milsurp knock offs of fair to good quality. The most important thing is don't overweight them or yourself, and use a dry bag with them as appropriate. 

Good luck on the search.

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## Traditionalist

Thanks, I'm about 5'8 but have a athletic build with very broad shoulders. Will do on the search. I didn't think they made small Alice packs? Are they not issued?


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## natertot

> Thanks, I'm about 5'8 but have a athletic build with very broad shoulders. Will do on the search. I didn't think they made small Alice packs? Are they not issued?
> 
> 
> Sent from up in an oak tree


I'm 5'7", medium build with a few extra lbs. and I'm cool with them. The military only had medium and large ALICE packs. Large is required to have the frame while medium packs the frame is optional. The civilian world saw that the military had medium and large packs, so military contractors decided to complete the set by making a small pack. It does not take a frame at all and I find them convenient for day trips and as an overnight bag.

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## Traditionalist

> I'm 5'7", medium build with a few extra lbs. and I'm cool with them. The military only had medium and large ALICE packs. Large is required to have the frame while medium packs the frame is optional. The civilian world saw that the military had medium and large packs, so military contractors decided to complete the set by making a small pack. It does not take a frame at all and I find them convenient for day trips and as an overnight bag.


Interesting thanks for the info!


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Rick

I like them as well. The only caveat is the shoulder straps are the pits. I upgraded mine to Molle shoulder straps and it made a world of difference.

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## Old GI

Rick is absolutely right about the straps.  I'm convinced that I'm paying for those long, leisurely strolls across the country-side now.

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## finallyME

Well....if you are a tradionalist, then yes, they are worth it.  That way you can find out for yourself why so many people don't like them.   :Smile:   They aren't more durable than nylon, because they are nylon.  Anyways......if I were you, I would get an ILBE. 
If you do decide to go the ALICE route, google "Hellcat".

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## kyratshooter

Consider that the military is more concerned with making GI proof gear than in well designed and comfortable load carrying gear.

Yes, I carried one over hill and dale through swamp and over mountain.  Hated every minute of it.  Of course the military always expects one to carry 70 pounds as soon as they hand you something with shoulder straps on it!

The backpacking industry has spent the past 100 years developing the best load carrying systems humans have ever used, so why buy a device of medieval torture? 

The medium alice weighs 8 pounds empty.  That is 8 pounds of food, a good sleeping bag or a change of clothes you can not carry.

Besides, they're ugly.

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## natertot

Man, some of you guys are hard on ALICE! The straps are the worst part of them. A medium ALICE with MOLLE straps and no frame and a load not exceeding 30lbs is the cheapest and most comfortable set up I have come up with for long distance (5-8 mile) hikes. You should be able to put the bag and straps together for about $25 and it be a good first bag for you. You gotta start somewhere.

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## Rick

He's 16. He's not going to go out and purchase a Kifuru (neither am I by the way). However, for the price, it's hard to beat an Alice especially if you upgrade the straps. Even with the OEM straps it's not bad as long as you don't load it down or decide to walk 50 miles. But it is a good starter pack for a young man trying to get a pack on the cheap.

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## Traditionalist

Are there better molle straps than others? The molle straps on my red rock engagement pack are ok, but they lack padding. Are they a universal fit?


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Rick

I think mine are Molle II straps. It's been a while and I'm not certain. Here's a tut for putting them on the frame. I removed the vertical bar on the frame just as this guy did. I found no problem with frame integrity by doing that. 

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/v...ht=alice+molle

Here's a couple I've upgraded. 

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## natertot

> He's 16. He's not going to go out and purchase a Kifuru (neither am I by the way). However, for the price, it's hard to beat an Alice especially if you upgrade the straps. Even with the OEM straps it's not bad as long as you don't load it down or decide to walk 50 miles. But it is a good starter pack for a young man trying to get a pack on the cheap.


+1.............

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## Rick

I can remember the old backpack my dad and all the other father's in the neighborhood brought home from WWII. It would be interesting to know how many gallons of cool aid, number of marshmallows and candy bars those things carried after they got back stateside and the second generation began using them to scout things like woods, creeks, tree tops, backyards and brick walls. I learned early on that chocolate bars would not stand up to an August summer. We probably gave those chocolate bars to the Krauts as punishment. I'd never be that cruel today.

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## Wildthang

I have an old medium Alice with no frame that I got somewhere for dirt cheap. It is just a backup in case I decide to hike with a person that doesn't have a backpack. As long as it is loaded with light stuff it isn't bad, way better than nothing. I let one of the girls use it and we just use it to carry lunch in for a hike, and she didn't complain at all!
But there are a whole lot of better backpacks out there for serious hiking!

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## hunter63

> He's 16. He's not going to go out and purchase a Kifuru (neither am I by the way). However, for the price, it's hard to beat an Alice especially if you upgrade the straps. Even with the OEM straps it's not bad as long as you don't load it down or decide to walk 50 miles. But it is a good starter pack for a young man trying to get a pack on the cheap.


That folks is it in a nutshell.
Young and strong people put up with stuff till they find out it sucks, that there are better units out there, but cost a whole bunch of money....so you kinda figure out first, Do I want to go, then what can I afford, and what sucks less.

Make your decision and go for it......up grades come in time.

My answer is Yes, It is worth it, ...I have one set up....but mostly will get carried in the truck....but has spent some miles with about 30# or so.

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## finallyME

Or....you can just buy the MOLLE pack instead.  Or...you can buy a cheap old Kelty and put MOLLE straps on that.  There are a lot of better cheap options than that ALICE frame.

By the way, people and equipment companies throw the word MOLLE around like crazy.  But, we are all talking about a very specific pack.  Here are some links to buy.  I am not associated with this site, just have bought stuff here.  You can look on ebay as well for good deals.
http://tonystactical.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=123
http://tonystactical.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=140

As to the MOLLE shoulder straps, you can replace them with ALICE LC2 shoulder straps and get the same performance.  But, you can only do that on an ALICE frame.  You can also make your own frame out of PVC.  Then it will be the right size, and a few pounds lighter.

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## natertot

> Or....you can just buy the MOLLE pack instead.  Or...you can buy a cheap old Kelty and put MOLLE straps on that.  There are a lot of better cheap options than that ALICE frame.
> 
> By the way, people and equipment companies throw the word MOLLE around like crazy.  But, we are all talking about a very specific pack.  Here are some links to buy.  I am not associated with this site, just have bought stuff here.  You can look on ebay as well for good deals.
> http://tonystactical.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=123
> http://tonystactical.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=140
> 
> As to the MOLLE shoulder straps, you can replace them with ALICE LC2 shoulder straps and get the same performance.  But, you can only do that on an ALICE frame.  You can also make your own frame out of PVC.  Then it will be the right size, and a few pounds lighter.


If you have a medium Alice, you don't need a frame at all. There is also a way to eliminate the frame on the large with some ingenuity.

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## Traditionalist

Here's another question is the molle 2 or line better for someone my size? It seems like it would be huge on me


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Traditionalist

Ilbe not line


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Rick

What size are you? I'm 5'11" these days and the Molle fits me okay.

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## xjosh40x

I have to agree with everyone. ALICE packs were designed to hold up for troops in foreign regions. Regions that can't be properly tested of long periods of time so the military designed a pack basically indestructible . I've done 30k ruck marches through the hills of Fort Knox and the wetlands of MS and LA. With a wet weather bag you can't go wrong. And if you know how to pack gear right you can hold a lot. 100lbs in a large pack. But yes the straps can be uncomfortable. Upgrading them will help tons. I have some of the newest MOLLE packs and they are great but do seem to break easier and are often more expensive. Any military surplus has both. For a beginner on a budget but wanting the right gear to hold up I'd recommend anyone an old OD green ALICE pack.

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## finallyME

> If you have a medium Alice, you don't need a frame at all. There is also a way to eliminate the frame on the large with some ingenuity.


I know....I have one.  It is basically a fancy book bag without a frame.  Get an assault pack, either the ILBE or the MOLLE II.  You can get those for about the price of a used medium ALICE.

The question that Traditionalist needs to ask is does he need a frame.  The frame gives you the ability to carry more weight.  It doesn't take much weight before a book bag gets really uncomfortable.

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## finallyME

> Here's another question is the molle 2 or line better for someone my size? It seems like it would be huge on me
> 
> 
> Sent from up in an oak tree


I am 5'11" and an ALICE frame is way too short.  Of course, torso size is not related to height.  The MOLLE frame is the perfect length for me.  The ILBE fits like a dream.

I definitely am not an ALICE fan, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't get one.  After all, the only way for you to join the group is to get one and see for yourself.  There isn't an ALICE hater out there that didn't acquire that hatred from wearing the ALICE pack for many miles.  Get one and join the club!

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## natertot

> I know....I have one.  It is basically a fancy book bag without a frame.  Get an assault pack, either the ILBE or the MOLLE II.  You can get those for about the price of a used medium ALICE.
> 
> The question that Traditionalist needs to ask is does he need a frame.  The frame gives you the ability to carry more weight.  It doesn't take much weight before a book bag gets really uncomfortable.


In post 18, the only negatives you had about ALICE were the frames. Eliminate the frames, and they are good durable packs on the cheap. I don't know where you get that MOLLE or ILBE is the same price as a medium ALICE. according to your links, the MOLLE straps are $19 plus shipping. Local surplus sales medium ALICE with straps (no frame) for less than $27 out the door.

You don't like ALICE, and that's okay. I'm not saying they are the perfect be all end all packs either. I must ask you though to not let your personal preferences cloud what is factual about ALICE. The OP is 16yo, short on cash, and is looking for a place to start. A rugged pack with straps that can be had under $30 seems like as good a place as any for a starting point. If he doesn't like it, he can always turn it into a trunk bag or secondary bag or whatever uses he can come up with. Anyone can get their monies worth out of one no matter how they use it.

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## Rick

The frame is short for a reason. It's to make room for the pistol belt. It's not designed to sit on the hips like a "normal" pack does. However, you can lower the whole rig so it does. Hence the "kidney" pad. The Molle got around that by using the load bearing vest. It also sticks out in back a lot more than most other packs. It definitely has a few drawbacks for hiking. I haven't used the ILBE but I do like the way it's set up. The Molle is just a nice piece of equipment. I think I paid $50 each for mine. I can put way way more than I can carry in my Molle. I can only put way more than I can carry in my Alice.

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## finallyME

> In post 18, the only negatives you had about ALICE were the frames. Eliminate the frames, and they are good durable packs on the cheap. I don't know where you get that MOLLE or ILBE is the same price as a medium ALICE. according to your links, the MOLLE straps are $19 plus shipping. Local surplus sales medium ALICE with straps (no frame) for less than $27 out the door.


First lets compare apples to apples, and then we can start arguing about it.  :Smile:    I was comparing the ALICE with no frame to a MOLLE or ILBE assault pack.  That is different than the ILBE and MOLLE main pack.  Here are some examples:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USMC-Assault...item2c738598ac
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USMC-Field-A...item27eb892a95
http://tonystactical.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=100

All just glorified book bags.

Shoot....get one of these http://www.walmart.com/ip/Fieldline-...-Camo/26376284
or one of these http://www.walmart.com/ip/New-Centur...Black/15001664

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## Rick

Aaargh. The Molle assault pack has worse shoulder straps than the Alice and they are the pits. The Assault pack is the pits squared. I think the pack was so named because it assaults the wearer. And they are sewn in. You can't change them.

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## sjj

Rick,

How did your experiment to add the "straight" pieces of foam padding to the Molle assault pack's shoulder straps turn out?

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## natertot

> First lets compare apples to apples, and then we can start arguing about it.    I was comparing the ALICE with no frame to a MOLLE or ILBE assault pack.  That is different than the ILBE and MOLLE main pack.  Here are some examples:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USMC-Assault...item2c738598ac
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USMC-Field-A...item27eb892a95
> http://tonystactical.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=100
> 
> All just glorified book bags.
> 
> Shoot....get one of these http://www.walmart.com/ip/Fieldline-...-Camo/26376284
> or one of these http://www.walmart.com/ip/New-Centur...Black/15001664


Wasn't trying to argue. Didn't realize you were talking about the "assault packs" and it came across that your personal preference for one means that there is zero worth for the other. You don't like ALICE, and that is fine. I don't think they are perfect, either. But they are not worthless (except to you, per your personal opinion, which is fine) and worth having a couple. 

As far as glorified book bags...... well, I don't know what you want differently. Zippers on the bottom instead of the top? Straps to wear them a different way? One difference between them and book bags that I own is that my book bags all have those cool little loops that hold pens and such. BTW, I do have the first bag that you listed for Wal-Mart. Picked it up on clearance last year for $8. Figured for the price, why not? Nice bag for what it is...... really.

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## Rick

At the time there were not many "add a pad" products to choose from. The one I purchased wasn't quite wide enough so the velcro didn't close. I rigged it using another piece of velcro but I never did like the set up. Today, you can find strap on shoulder pads everywhere. I haven't messed with it beyond that. I found the assault pack really didn't serve my needs and was pretty uncomfortable on my shoulders. It has been relegated to my "if everything else fails" pile. I have so many packs now I'm starting to feel like Sourdough.

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## Rdog

Are alice packs worth it?  

Depends on what "it" is.  Like many here I am prior military, I spent a lot of time under an ALICE pack, and I basically hated humping that bit*h.  Yet as soon as I got out, an large Alice pack was sought out and added to my gear.  Why?  Price and capability.  

The Alice pack has a lot of basic good points.  its tough, been everywhere, and seldom fails.  Personally I never saw a true failure of an alice pack in 4 yrs in the Marine infantry.  I did see the odd shoulder strap need replacement, and a frame break, but the bag its self held up.  Its well made in this respect.

It is far from a comfortable pack, and when compared to civie hiking packs it even looks worse comfort wise.  The Alice was a "one size fits all" that alone should warn you that almost every civilian hiking pack has the potential to be far better fit to an individual, vs the one size for everyone.  But, with a little work you can add padding and really make an Alice "not bad" feeling.  The old practice was using 100mph tape and the packing foams found in ammo and other suplies (I used to always grab a few pads and make insoles for my boots)  The smart guys really padded out their packs and it made a big difference...today it makes more sense to just use upgraded straps and belt from later Molle packs or the like.  

It may make more sense as well to just get a more modern pack...I was out before the Alice pack was retired so I don't have experience with the later systems.

So, if money it tight you can get an alice, mod it on the cheap with tape and some padding and have a good functioning pack.  But you could also get a later design surplus pack and avoid some of the downfalls to the ALice system (but likely have some other downfall).

Bottom line, the Alice pack is still a good pack, and can be found cheap.  You may find something better for your needs and not spend too much more, but the Alice works.

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## Traditionalist

Grabbed a medium Alice without a frame and hip belt today in amazing shape for $5. It had the shoulder straps and extra shoulder straps in it. Where can I get a frame and belt cheap?


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## natertot

> Grabbed a medium Alice without a frame and hip belt today in amazing shape for $5. It had the shoulder straps and extra shoulder straps in it. Where can I get a frame and belt cheap?
> 
> 
> Sent from up in an oak tree


Congrats! Sportsmans Guide is pretty inexpensive on theirs. there is always ebay and other online milsurp places.

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## Traditionalist

Whoever used the bag took great care of it. The flap where the instructions have a little cracking but are very clear with the instructions. When I went through the bag I realized it had a pair of shoulder straps inside. Now I have 2 pairs. The shoulder straps that were inside are definitely un issued. There's no fading or scratch on the metal hardware. I still have to get a frame but I feel it was worth the $5


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Rick

Just google alica pack frame. You'll get tons of hits. The link I gave you earlier will show you how to attach the shoulder straps to the frame.

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## Traditionalist

> Just google alica pack frame. You'll get tons of hits. The link I gave you earlier will show you how to attach the shoulder straps to the frame.


Thanks rick. Will do after school today. I could see the shoulder straps being uncomfortable but for my use my bag won't weigh more that 35lbs. I plan on using it in upstate to do some hiking and a few overnight to three day trips. I understand there's better bags for that but I don't doubt the Alice pack. I'll be ordering molle ii straps for it also. 


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## kyratshooter

Bad straps will make a 35 pound bag feel like a ton of stones suspended by two saw blades within a couple of hours.

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## Rick

You're just mad 'cause some guy with three stripes told you to carry it. They gave you overseas pay and all that combat pay. That was like, what, an extra $95 a month? What the heck more do you want? 

"They gave me all that money. So much my pockets was sore.
More dough than I can use.
Re-enlistment blues."

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## Traditionalist

Orderd a frame, and kidney belt tonight, should be here saturday. Ill be using it for a 3 day trip next week and will see how it goes 


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## natertot

> Orderd a frame, and kidney belt tonight, should be here saturday. Ill be using it for a 3 day trip next week and will see how it goes 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad


Fantastic! If you are able, please post a pic or two. I'd love to see what you came up with. We might be able to give more or better advice or suggestions based on the pics. Congrats on the first bag!

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## Traditionalist

Got the frame friday afternoon and the seller threw in lc2 straps which were night and day to my lc1 straps. Went on a 3 mile hike with it loaded out to 34.32 pounds and it felt good. It fits my body perfect. My camp trip was changed to a family trip. Ill still post pictures. Instead of solo, I'm with my parents and 2 siblings.


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## crashdive123

Have fun.  Looking forward to the pictures.

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## Traditionalist

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Heres where im going, this was last month. Its a 3 mile hike off north south lake in upstate ny. Ill be camping at the main campground instead of off to the side of this ledge where i originally was going to go.


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## hayshaker

for years in hawaii i used 2,packs 1,was a softpack noframe 2,long outer pouches on sides 1.on back zip open main pouch,
that was one nice bag.2,was a alice pack and ducegear i used all of the time when i went hiking and outer island.
today i have a ilbe in marpat and a filbe in coyote brown and the shoulder straps and waist belts are a dream,
funny thing is as we get older we hump less. funny back in the day i was like a billygoat running up an down valleys
and mountains. no you really pace yourself carry half or less of what you once could.i woul,nt try any more to sleep in trees
like i once did i used to carry a couple of issue carrbiners to secure my pack in the tree while i slept in a sm,od,hammock.
those were the days i,ll tell ya.

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## Traditionalist

Well I got my bag packed and I'll be leaving tommorow in the morning. I'll take a few pictures of the packed bag. There's no cell service at the campsite so I'll have to wait until I go into town to upload pictures.


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## crashdive123

Have fun and stay safe.  Looking forward to your trip report and pictures.

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## Tokwan

There is no way on earth that I will be able to get those Alice Packs. Have heard of them for a long long time.
I was wondering if someone could go out an purchase one for me (without the US Army logo or stamp or insigna...and ship the item to me.
I will pay upfront of course provided you can adsive the total cost inclusive shipping costs. 
The only thing is to state the item as a free gift (so I escape the taxes).
An Alice Pack with Frames of course...

ANy takers..I do not mind paying extra for your troubles.

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## natertot

> There is no way on earth that I will be able to get those Alice Packs. Have heard of them for a long long time.
> I was wondering if someone could go out an purchase one for me (without the US Army logo or stamp or insigna...and ship the item to me.
> I will pay upfront of course provided you can adsive the total cost inclusive shipping costs. 
> The only thing is to state the item as a free gift (so I escape the taxes).
> An Alice Pack with Frames of course...
> 
> ANy takers..I do not mind paying extra for your troubles.


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/produ...pack?a=1744132

Here you go. Click the link under the price that says "Canada/International Shopping Info" and they explain how you can get it outside the US. No US/Military logos on this pack, either.

BTW, I am not affiliated with SG, just a happy, repetitive, customer of theirs......

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## Tokwan

Thanks dude! Will buy you lunch when you are in Malaysia...... :munchies: 

But that would mean I would have to pay the taxes.... :Mellow:

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## natertot

> Thanks dude! Will buy you lunch when you are in Malaysia......
> 
> But that would mean I would have to pay the taxes....


How much are the taxes on a $35 dollar item? Perhaps you should order this too!

http://www.ohmybeauty.com/vaseline-p...FcRAMgodHmAAvw

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## Tokwan

Well I am a non member..so that would be about USd40 bucks converted to Malaysia Ringgit would be about 120.00 that would make the items plus tax around RM150.00 plus shipping cost around USD is about another 100...making a total of 250.00 
Vaseline..I have too many of them as I make my own cotton tinder unless you are asking me to do something with it on the customs folks...hahahahaha

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## natertot

Okay, so 1 USD is about 3 Ringgit.....

The cost of the item can't be changed, nor can the shipping. (It's gotta get there some how!) You are looking at saving a $10 on the tax, but then you were going to give a member a little something for their troubles anyway. So in the end....... what are you saving?

Sorry, been up all night so I might not be connecting the dots right. Now, where did I sit my coffee at? hmmmmmm

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## Tokwan

Gosh..thank you for being sleepless over my 10 bucks...muahahahahahahahaha..

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## natertot

> Gosh..thank you for being sleepless over my 10 bucks...muahahahahahahahaha..


Nah.... working nights...... yuck!

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## Tokwan

hhahahaha..thanks for the link...will be ordering soon.

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## natertot

> hhahahaha..thanks for the link...will be ordering soon.


You're welcome. All my ALICE are the real military ones and never messed with aftermarket ones (excluding my small ALICE, but made by a GI contractor). Post a pic and review when you get it. I'd be interested in your opinion of it.

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## Traditionalist

Just got back and pictures will be up tonight or tommorow. I did about 28-30 miles over the 4 1/2 days i was gone. The pack did great and i found it very fitting to my body. After 4 miles or so i started to get sore on my shoulders so i think ill be ordering the molle ii straps or adding some padding


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## crashdive123

Keep in mind that should straps on a pack, while carrying some of the load, are mostly there to keep the pack from falling.  The bulk of your pack weight should be carried on your hips, so make sure your waist belt/pad are adjusted correctly.

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## Traditionalist

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There's more on my camera that I'll upload soon


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## crashdive123

Nice pictures.  Looking forward to seeing more.

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## Traditionalist

Btw thats my bulldog under the rock if anyones wondering what it is


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## Tokwan

Nice dog! Nice pack! Nice pics!

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## Traditionalist

Well here's my puppy, I uploaded the other pictures to my computer and they should be up today.Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Rick

Looks like some beautiful country and a nice day to be out.

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## hunter63

You put you puppy under that rock?............

Nice pic's....great view.

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## Traditionalist

> You put you puppy under that rock?............
> 
> Nice pic's....great view.


He kinda crawled under it, he found some acorns to chew on


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## Traditionalist

Here's some moreGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
I'm an avid mountain biker as well, I was wearing a helmet, I just took a break and threw in my hat


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## crashdive123

Nice pictures.  Your dog grew.

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## Tokwan

is that aSanta Cruz frame MTB? Looks like one.

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## Traditionalist

Thats my other dog, and no, its a 2008 stumpjumper pro built up from the frame


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## Tokwan

Ooo yes   the stumpjumper..looks similar to my old Santa Cruz Heckler...nice dog,....

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## Traditionalist

Well heres a picture at a mtb festival a few weeks back so you can see it betterGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
I ride a stumpjumper my dad rides an enduroGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


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## Traditionalist

> Ooo yes   the stumpjumper..looks similar to my old Santa Cruz Heckler...nice dog,....


Couldn't help but notice your avatar. You shoot a compound? I have a few recurves and compounds of my ownGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Just got one of these (not my picture) with practically the same setup as the one shown but I am using a ripcord drop away until I can get the right rest. Also I have a spot Hogg boss Hogg sight instead of a sur locGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Traditionalist

Wrong picture, it's not the blue e35. It's a pse bow madness xl


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## Tokwan

I am registered. Yep I shoot a compound but bows here are so **dang** expensive and as you are aware, I live in Malaysia. I shoot a Mathews Mission Compound. I also have a Samick recurve bow..I only have these as I do not shoot much and don't need too many bows. 
Yep and that is me in the avatar. I am 54 years old..see my profile  where I have written about myself.

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## crashdive123

Bows are expensive everywhere Tokwan.

Nice collection Traditionalist.

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## Traditionalist

> Bows are expensive everywhere Tokwan.
> 
> Nice collection Traditionalist.


Thanks. I have a few more pictures about the trip I didn't get a chance to upload. My homework took me 3 1/2 hours and I was too tired to upload the pictures. 


Sent from up in an oak tree

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## Tokwan

Well for a simple compound like the Mission..it would cost around Ringgit 3,000.00 here..sort of US$1,000.00....whereas in the USA it would cost only US$300.00

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## Traditionalist

Well, found a few more pictures 2 months later... well here they areGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Adventure Wolf

ALICE Packs are always worth the cost. They are cheaper then the MOLLE, because they're being phased out of military service and have flooded the market. It's easy to find them used too, and can be more commonly found used then the MOLLE. I've found them at nearly every army surplus store and website I've ever visited.

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## Rick

They are also being imported new from overseas. There are a lot of wholesalers to army surplus stores that offer them. I'm even starting to see some of the Molle versions in the catalogs. Mostly the 3 day assault packs.

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## Zack

> He's 16. He's not going to go out and purchase a Kifuru (neither am I by the way). However, for the price, it's hard to beat an Alice especially if you upgrade the straps. Even with the OEM straps it's not bad as long as you don't load it down or decide to walk 50 miles. But it is a good starter pack for a young man trying to get a pack on the cheap.


I agree.  I have a medium ALICE with the MOLLE hip belt and the regular straps, and I think that it's comfortable enough, despite the fact the it was only $25 shipped!  I haven't tried out my medium ALICE with the straps only yet, but I'm going out for an overnight on Friday...

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## Traditionalist

> I agree.  I have a medium ALICE with the MOLLE hip belt and the regular straps, and I think that it's comfortable enough, despite the fact the it was only $25 shipped!  I haven't tried out my medium ALICE with the straps only yet, but I'm going out for an overnight on Friday...


I've had it for a while now so this threads pretty old, make sure you don't over pack it. It's very easy to do. Take some pictures and post it over in the main discussion.

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## Dynanim

I'm putting together a short entry about ALICE  packs on a web page. I've never used one or spoken to anyone that's used one, so please tell me what's right/wrong and if I should include anything else. Here's what I've written so far:

The All-Purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment (ALICE) system, was adopted as United States Army Standard A on 17 January 1973. It has been superseded by newer systems (MOLLE, ILBE, FILBE) since then, but is still in some limited use. The system has many attachment points for gear. Its made up of components to carry two types of load: the Fighting Load and the Existence Load. The loads are held in place by the Individual Equipment Belt and Suspenders (which attach to the belt to distribute some of the load to the shoulders).

[I'll be inserting a picture from Wikipedia here]

The Fighting Load is the minimum equipment needed by a combat soldier who has to be able to move quickly and with agility. 

The Existence Load components carry all the equipment, food, and other essentials to maintain a soldier in the field until resupply is possible. It consists of:
	Pack frame
	Straps for the lower back, waist, shoulders
	Cargo support shelf
	Cargo tie down straps
	Pack (medium or large)
	Camouflage cover

White, olive green, and camouflage pattern covers are available for different field conditions.

Military surplus and commercial copies are often used by civilian backpackers. Although robust, the ALICE packs arent comfortable for many people, particularly those with larger builds. Shoulder straps and hip belts may be replaced by those from newer systems to overcome fitting and/or comfort problems. The main benefit is that they are more affordable than purpose-built hiking packs. They're also cheaper than MOLLE packs because they're being phased out of military service, and are being imported from overseas.
OK. Fire away! But not with a gun.

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## Dynanim

Wow Traditionalist! I wish I had that many bows! I wish I had *one*!

Like the photos BTW, especially the T-Rox.

Tokwan, being in Malaysia would pose fairly different conditions to those in Western countries, not just wilderness-wise, but also politically. What are your biggest challenges when going camping or hiking? I don't imagine many locals would do that.

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## Rick

I'm not sure what you mean by "purpose built packs". If you are referring to commercial backpacks then that sentence is wrong. They are generally less comfortable. Sometimes a LOT less comfortable. A good quality backpack that is adjustable can fit you like a glove. The Alice never will. The thing that makes Alice so appealing is cost. They cost next to nothing, can be modified to be more comfortable and are almost bomb proof, well, not literally but they are pretty tough. I like my Alice packs a lot but for serious backpacking I'll use my Vaude or my Mountain Smith every time.

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## Adventure Wolf

For serious outdoorsmanship, I don't use the ALICE or the MOLLE. If I'm out the woods for an extended stay, I pack a High Sierra Appalachian Frame Pack.

I use my ALICE when I go hunting for the day.

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## Dynanim

> I'm not sure what you mean by "purpose built packs". If you are referring to commercial backpacks then that sentence is wrong. They are generally less comfortable. Sometimes a LOT less comfortable. A good quality backpack that is adjustable can fit you like a glove. The Alice never will. The thing that makes Alice so appealing is cost. They cost next to nothing, can be modified to be more comfortable and are almost bomb proof, well, not literally but they are pretty tough. I like my Alice packs a lot but for serious backpacking I'll use my Vaude or my Mountain Smith every time.


Rick, I think you might have misread my sentence. I do mean "commercial backpacks" and I agree with you that Alice packs are cheaper than them and not as comfortable. Internal frames and all sorts of straps and framesheets can make commercial backpacks fit like a glove. Maybe I've got to reword it to make it clearer. Thanks for your thoughts. Is it okay if I add your observations about them being tough?

AW, what you said pretty much reinforces what Rick and I think. Cheers.

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## Rick

I guess I did misread it. Probably hadn't had enough coffee. Sorry about that. Sure, if you want to use it, feel free.

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## Dynanim

Thanks Rick! You're a gentleman and a scholar.

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## Rick

Thank you. You do realize there are those that would disagree with both those points? Of course, I generally try to ban them but occasionally one or two slip through.

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## Dynanim

Great! My disguise is working then!  :Smile:

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## finallyME

I am one of those two that slipped through.

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## Rick

Ha ha...hey, wait a minute.....

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## Bigfoot

I highly recommend eberlestock back packs. They are a bit pricey but are built for and used by the military and are very well put together. I have two the halftrak and the skycrane. The skycrane is my favorite.

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## InfantryAmerican

I went out and bought an ALICE pack when I started getting into all of this stuff. It was different from the one I had in the service. When I went on large excursions with other people, I realized that their high speed civilian bags were a lot lighter and more comfortable. 

I still have mine and I'm embarrassed to say this out of nostalgic value, but I wish I got a civilian one.

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## Billofthenorth

I have 2 mediums and a large and I like them.

 The large will fit a 5 gallon water jug inside for training purposes and obviously has more room and pockets. I use it for winter camping and the mediums for day hikes or loaners. I've had a couple of civvie backpacks but at least for me, I found the ALICE to work well and be more durable and easier to repair. I haven't tried the MOLLE packs yet.

In the field I prefer muted earth tone colors (not camo though) for all my clothing and gear. Most of that will go well in the field or in the city / around town. I don't  wear a pack except in the woods and the OD green fits in there well, I don't stand out like the folks wearing bright blue or red or yellow packs and clothing.

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