# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  How to be a good shot

## wildWoman

So what tips do you have for neophyte hunters to practice their shooting so that the animal will die instantly?? What has kept me from shooting anything so far is partly the horror of the animal not dying right aways. I don't have a problem with the concept of killing an animal to eat it, but it would really haunt me if I caused the animal to suffer at any length before dying.
I'm pretty good shooting at a target but is there anything in particular you'd recommend that might make you a "one-shot-and-it's-dead" hunter??

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## Alpine_Sapper

> So what tips do you have for neophyte hunters to practice their shooting so that the animal will die instantly?? What has kept me from shooting anything so far is partly the horror of the animal not dying right aways. I don't have a problem with the concept of killing an animal to eat it, but it would really haunt me if I caused the animal to suffer at any length before dying.
> I'm pretty good shooting at a target but is there anything in particular you'd recommend that might make you a "one-shot-and-it's-dead" hunter??


I'm assuming you've been taught good marksmanship on the range? Breathing, controlled squeeze, etc? Same principles. And aim for a vital area.  :Smile:

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## Tahyo

Wildwoman, assuming what Alpine said is true, make sure you are using the right weapon for the job.  Don't use a gun not powerful enough to do the job, but on the same note, don't use a very powerful gun to try to kill very small game.

Here's a link to get you started.  Keep in mind that there are going to be differing opinions, but generally speaking all pretty much agree with the same area.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articl...categoryID=119

The other think to keep in mind is that sooner or later you are going to hit something and it is not going to die right away.

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## Alpine_Sapper

Nice find on the article.

On a semi-humorous note, Isaw the result of a cousin who mixed up their 12ga. load one day when dove hunting. Buck shot on a bird hunt makes a nice mist.

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## Tony uk

> Nice find on the article.
> 
> On a semi-humorous note, Isaw the result of a cousin who mixed up their 12ga. load one day when dove hunting. Buck shot on a bird hunt makes a nice mist.


Mmmmm Pre-minced bird  :Smile:  No chopping required

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## Tahyo

> Nice find on the article.
> 
> On a semi-humorous note, Isaw the result of a cousin who mixed up their 12ga. load one day when dove hunting. Buck shot on a bird hunt makes a nice mist.


When I was about 14 years old, we were "pass shooting" teal.  I was using a 12 gauge 30 inch full choke with #7 1/2s.  It was one of those low flying teal that was coming almost dead on to me.  All I know is that it was one of those shots that should have missed, but it didn't and he was close.  Made a mess all over me and didn't leave much to pick up.

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## wildWoman

Thanks - not much "training" to boast of, more like some guys showing me the ropes. I have a 30-06 and a moose, black bear or mountain goat would be the unlucky target. Is there really no other trick to it than just doing the same stuff as when target shooting?

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## Tahyo

Other than what Alpine said earlier about "good marksmanship on the range? Breathing, controlled squeeze, etc? Same principles. And aim for a vital area.", that's about it.  Your biggest hurdle if you have not done it before is going to be trying to stay calm.  Some people really start breathing hard and the adrenalin rush can sometimes mess you up if you can't control it.  

Make sure you have the best possible chance at a clean un-obstructed shot.

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## LadyTrapper

If you are a good shot on the range and confident of your markmenship...a head or neck shot is the most effective in putting them down the fastest and quickest....these targets are smaller but require extreme accuracy. The way I see it, if I aim for the neck/head and miss, it will more than likely be a clean miss because of the size of the target...rather than aim for the foreshoulder for example and either hit high or low, hitting leg bone or worse...paunching the animal. Aim small...hit big.
Target shooting is most definitely different than when a big game animal is in your sights. 
Breathe and squeeze my friend.

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## Ole WV Coot

Don't shoot at the whole animal, pick a spot and know where the vital areas are. A 30-06 packs a pretty fair kick and some ladies have a problem with it. Practice, Practice can't say it enough. Take advantage of any cover and try and get as close as you can. Shoot off a rest, sitting or on your stomach. If you get a good shot and a deer drops, drink a cup of coffee, read a book or do something for about 1/2 hr and the animal will die without running like crazy and getting all gamey tasting. That's the easy part, the rest is work.

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## wildWoman

> If you are a good shot on the range and confident of your markmenship...a head or neck shot is the most effective in putting them down the fastest and quickest....these targets are smaller but require extreme accuracy. The way I see it, if I aim for the neck/head and miss, it will more than likely be a clean miss because of the size of the target...rather than aim for the foreshoulder for example and either hit high or low, hitting leg bone or worse...paunching the animal. Aim small...hit big.


That sounds like a really good idea to inexperienced me. What do other folks think about it?

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## beerrunner13

I like to put one in the pump house, heart lung areathe ribs and shoulders will not deflect a bullet as much as the skull.  But it also depends on the position of the animal.  Draw a line from where the bullet will enter to the point it will or would exit in your minds eye. A head shot will do it but it also will ruin the head if you are planed to have the animal mounted.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> That sounds like a really good idea to inexperienced me. What do other folks think about it?


If you don't feel comfortable taking a body shot for a vital organ, and your concerned about lingering pain from a non-fatal wound, absolutely.  

And if it's not a hunt for food but self defense, you can probably count on most animals bolting at the sound of a decent powered rifle. A .22 pistol not so much.  :Big Grin:   I know in Scandinavia they carry rifles to scare away the polar bears, and one shot in the air *usually* does the trick.

 If it's for food, well, that depends on how hungry you are. If you can survive without it, sure, go for the head shot, and take the chance. If it's take the game or starve, take the chance on a wound and track situation.

Just my $.02

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## Tahyo

Like beerrunner I'd rather go for the heart lung area.  I'd rather pass up a shot than risk winging what I'm shooting at, and I have passed on my share.  If it was a survival situation I may be more liberal with my choice of shots, but if I was just doing normal hunting... the "shot" is either there or it's not.
The other thing is the more head-on the shot into the chest, be aware that it's probably going to end up in the abdomen and that can get messy if it goes through the guts come time to dress it.

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## rebel

Practice.  Know your weapon and what it likes to shoot.  It will not perform the same with all ammo.  Know you and your weapons limits.  The best shot will be the heart / lung.  I've seen botched head shots and they are not pretty.  Be patient for the right shot.  Some folks don't kill and that does not make you less of a survivor.  It may make you more resourcefully for gathering and other skills.  Don't point your weapon on anything you do not intend to shoot.  Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot.  Know your target and what is beyond it.  blah, blah, blah.  i.e. Don't pull a Cheney.

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## beerrunner13

> Practice.  Know your weapon and what it likes to shoot.  It will not perform the same with all ammo.  Know you and your weapons limits.  The best shot will be the heart / lung.  I've seen botched head shots and they are not pretty.  Be patient for the right shot.  Some folks don't kill and that does not make you less of a survivor.  It may make you more resourcefully for gathering and other skills.  Don't point your weapon on anything you do not intend to shoot.  Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot.  Know your target and what is beyond it.  blah, blah, blah.  i.e. Don't pull a Cheney.


Hey don't pick on Dick. after all it was a lawyer he shot.  :Big Grin:

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## Phoenix70

All the info posted on here is really good, so I hope you don’t mind if I add my .02 on my very first post. These are just a few tips to add to the ones you have now.

1. The 30-06 Springfield (7.62x63mm) is a fantastic caliber. But there more to it than what meets the eye. I would highly encourage you find the right cartridge for what you expect to encounter. Some go fast and deep with minimal damage (in relation to cal.) and some go slower with a heavier wound channel. With the ammunition advancements over the past few years, you should be able to find the right round that delivers most of its kinetic energy within the range you are comfortable with.

2.  Know your cone of fire/trajectory/MOA in relation to the impact zone. I’ll use an example taken from the Federal Arms trajectory table. The round is Triple Shock 180 grains with the zero at 200 yards, the drop or rise is in inches:
50yrd        .9
100yrd    2.0
200yrd    zero
300yrd   -8.6
300yrd with 10mph crosswind -8.6 lateral.

What this does for you is simple. If the hypothetical kill zone is 12 inches, then you would know that within 300yards of your target, you could place your sight center mass and without calculating the rise, fall or range (within reason), your shot will be in the kill zone.  Basically, this would buy you more time for a smoother shot and shot placement. 

Sorry for the ramble, I just realized how long my post is; I think I’ll get off my soapbox now.

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## tsitenha

1. often there is no "instant kill" but you can make it as humane as possible.
2. use enough gun, and back off the power setting of your scope so you can see all of the animal, aim for a specific spot, not just hair.
3. go out and help other hunters field dress an animal if you can and see exactly where the vitals zones are actually located from as many angles as you can determine and the size of them.
4. go help a butcher work his way around an animal to make the best use/cuts when you get yours
5. start with smaller game and as experience is acquired expand your game options

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## Sourdough

I have guided two women who had never fire a firearm ever in there life, not in practice at the range, never. One women got a Moose and one got a Caribou the very first time they ever discharged any firearm.

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## hoosierarcher

wildWoman In shooting game you must understand that not even the best placed shot always kills instantly. Even if life lasts only a few seconds some animals can travel a very impressive distance before death overcomes them. Here is the rule of thumb for a shot to drop an animal where it stands. You picture the placement of the shoulder opposite side from you and you aim for it's rotator cuff. This will put the bullet through the lungs and breaking that off shoulder will knock most big game animals down. A broadside or slightly quartering away shot are prefered for this of coarse. You'll need to study the antomy of each animal you hunt for. So you know where the vitals and the skeleton are so you can envision that off shoulder.Neck and head shots are too risky for a beginner. One last thing you may have heard the axiom "Practice makes perfect." well that axiom is only half right Perfect practice makes perfect. When training do everything by the numbers slowly and surely. With familiarity will come more speed. Remember the words of Wyatt Earp. "Speed is fine but accuracy is fin-al. The key is to do things slowly in a hurry." That means doing them by the numbers so many times slowly and with care and control that you can do them with your eyes closed or even in reverse order. Get yourself some dryfire safety caps. These will allow you to cycle the action, take aim, breath deep, hold, squeeze and release held breath s the trigger breaks over and recycle the action for a follow up shot and reaquire target once you have the actions mastered and someone has explain what your "soght picture" should be with your choice of scope and can acquire that sight picture with smooth nearly effortless movement you'll nbe ready to actually shoot some holes in paper. Once again doing everything slow and by the numbers. So let's recap, Study animal anatomy, fo perfect practice in dry fire exercises, do live fire exercises and always by the numbers and you'll be an absolutely lethal markswoman. Take it from a former Marine Corps sniper.

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## vagrant

Like most have said before, even a perfect shot might not kill an animal instantly, so I won't comment on that. My advice is for the range. Think of how you are going to be hunting and that is the way you want to practice at the range. I see folks at the range every day using bench rests and can hit a dime at a hundred yards. But that is the only way they practice. I always ask them if they have a bench rest when they go hunting  :Smile: 
Practice with the bench rest or other aids til you become proficient with the weapon. Then practice the way you are going to shoot in the field, i.e. sitting, standing ,prone. Aslo read up on the animal you wish to hunt and find the vital shots. They don't differ much from each other except in the angling shots.

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## Sourdough

> Like most have said before, even a perfect shot might not kill an animal instantly, so I won't comment on that. My advice is for the range. Think of how you are going to be hunting and that is the way you want to practice at the range. I see folks at the range every day using bench rests and can hit a dime at a hundred yards. But that is the only way they practice. I always ask them if they have a bench rest when they go hunting 
> Practice with the bench rest or other aids til you become proficient with the weapon. Then practice the way you are going to shoot in the field, i.e. sitting, standing ,prone. Aslo read up on the animal you wish to hunt and find the vital shots. They don't differ much from each other except in the angling shots.


Man I used to enrage target "HUNTERS". As you say they would be shooting  sub-MOA and, there was me at the next station doing jumping jacks and running hard in place to get winded and heart rate up, then I would grab my firearm, and off-hand fire fairly quickly, and reload and more jumping jacks, and shoot.

They would be mad and start raving at me, and go to the Rangemaster to complain. He knew what I was up to......... :Smile:

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## tsitenha

Something else to keep in mind, is bullet backdrop. Bullets often go right through an animal's vitals; make sure of what is on the other side, ridge silhouetted (animals on the crest of a hillside) allows too much possibility of the bullet traveling where you can not see its final trajectory and backdrop.
Good hunting :Smile:

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## trax

There's been a lot of good advice here Wildwoman. I'd recommend a couple of things to the novice hunter that have only been touched on here. Practice after you've worked out a bit, so you're winded and a little shaky. Practice from different firing positions (kneeling, prone, standing)and different distances. I knew a guy that could hit sub MOA at 100 and 150 yards and freaked when a moose was only 40 feet away. 

The police, and I believe military, teach their people to shoot for center mass for good reason, more vital targets in a bigger area. The best shot I know of, if you can get the shot, is just behind the foreleg, like immediately behind it, shooting slightly forward. Your bullet will pass through a lung and hit the heart. With moose and caribou, head shots are incredibly difficult. I posted on this in a completely different context last year, but a moose's rack can deflect a high powered bullet. If you have the shot, and you're a good enough shot, the best head shot is through the ear. I know an old lady who dropped a bull moose with a .22 with that shot. I wouldn't have tried it with a .22, but I did drop one with that shot, I was just lucky enough to have a high powered rifle (good old SMLE) I've also let probably a couple of tons of meat walk away in my lifetime because I didn't have a shot I was sure of. Oh yes, it's frustrating.

Other than that, you can never get too much practice. I've hunted my entire life and I still spend a couple of weeks going out to a target range every day before my hunting seasons open. And was it Coot or Hopeak that said, once you've got the kill is when the work begins? Whichever one it was, absolutely right.

If you're moose hunting, the most important thing you can learn, right up front is patience. They're not terribly smart critters, but they're very cautious. I know guys that have stopped at a spot where they saw a moose at some time or other in the off season, call a few times and give up and leave. Some other guy comes a long and there's a moose standing there saying "who called me?" and hunter number two gets lucky. Call, wait 15-20 minutes before you call again, then ...usually, wait. If you're a smoker, that's one scent I can almost guarantee animals will shy away from, I'm a smoker and sometimes that's a long time to go without a cigarette, lol. Anyway, hope some of this helps. 30-06 is an excellent choice for moose or caribou.

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## wildWoman

Thanks you guys, that's all really awesome advice! Really makes sense too what Hopeak and Trax said about doing some hopping around before target shooting. Well, lots of time to practice until fall...let you know if I'll manage to shoot some critter or "just" be assisting my boyfriend again.

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## DOGMAN

Well, I read some good stuff here. But, I think I can add some to it. First, get a .22 and practice, practice, then practice some more.  .22's are cheap to shoot and learn with.  Then after you become a good shot, then practice with your hunting rifle. It'll save you lots of cash.

I believe your hunting in the Yukon bush, your hunting big game, and your wanting to feed yourself with it- right? So, think beyond controlled shooting environments- practice shooting standing up, practice moving quickly and silently for 100 yards then pulling off a shot while breathing hard.  practice shooting off your knee, practice shooting off a tree branch while leaning against the tree. Practice laying down shooting off a log, practice shooting uphill, shooting downhill. Practice walking around, then shouldering your gun and getting off a good shot- quickly.

While going to sleep at night, think about every possible scenario you may encounter game in. Think about how you can turn every wildlife encounter into a shot opportunity and harvest.  As a long time hunting guide, I can tell you there is nothing more frustrating than encountering your quarry and not having a hunter be able to turn that opportunity into a harvest.  Game animals present themselves way more frequently than they are killed because ill prepared hunters are looking around for a rest instead of getting off a shot. 

Shot opportunites may only last for a split second. If your looking to feed yourself with your kills- you gotta be prepared to turn that opportunity into dinner!  Be comfortable with your gun and every situation you might get into with it. Don't think of it as an object- think of it as an extension of yourself.

Research your gun and the ballistics of various loads for it. memorize that info so you really can make snap mental judgements on different yardage shots- instantly.

And, if you really are worried about dropping big animals- get a .375 H&H. I think it is the premier caliber for Alaskan-Yukon big game. And it makes clean kills. Do a little research on it- it is a great tool.

Lastly, if you want to really be a good hunter have great optics. Give me a crappy gun and good optics and we'll eat much better than if I have a great gun and inferior optics. Get some good bino's and a good scope. Good is a relative term too- If you can pronounce the brand- it ain't good.

Good Luck

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## DOGMAN

Funny, I only read the first page of responses...I see I am just repeating some of what Trax and Hopak said. Great posts guys- sorry to paraprase your work.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Good is a relative term too- If you can pronounce the brand- it ain't good.
> 
> Good Luck


...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  ...

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## WildGoth

two words machine guns

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## sh4d0wm4573ri7

perfect practice makes perfect there is no other remedy

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## wildography

"How to be a good shot"

1 - get a pellet rifle (more accurate than BBs, IMHO) and a few hundred pellets;  PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE... much cheaper than even using a .22 AND you can even shoot in the house or garage (just use a good backstop - don't try and re-use the pellets unless you have a soft backstop... even then, they tend to get "warped");

2 - understand the "mechanics" and the "fundamentals" of accurate shooting... lots of info on-line and in the library... main thing is... you must have a straight-line "sight picture" from your eye through the rear sight, past the front sight, to the target's "impact point of the projectile" - where on the target you want the bullet to hit.

3 - start at short ranges (with a pellet rifle, no further than 30 feet; with a .22, no further than 30 yards - cut all distances in half for a handgun) taking your time in shooting; as you get more accurate, speed up your shooting time at the same range... then... move twice the distance back... and repeat the process... slow at first, then faster... then, double the distance, etc...

4 - go shooting with a more experienced - and a "good" - shooter;

5 - don't learn bad habits; they stay with you;

6- make it fun: with a pellet rifle... have a buddy roll a plastic frisbee across the ground... again... using the same principle... slow to shoot, then faster; then, move back...; use cans to shoot at: makes a satisfying "clang!"; shoot at balloons; fill a balloon half full of water - toss it into the air; tie a target (like a square piece of wood) to a string and hang it from a branch, when you hit it... the target swings... hit it while its moving... again... using the same principle... shoot slow, then faster... then move back;   ... there are all sorts of games you can "play" to become a better shot...

      - at the "peak" of my shooting ability, while in the Air Force, I'd often practice what I called "eye" shots at 40 yards with a .38, a .357, or a .22 revolver (pick an "eye", then aim for the inside corner of the eye).  The point wasn't really to always hit the eye... just to get within an inch of the inside corner - that's a killing shot every time unless a miracle happens.

7 - practice "visualization"... when I was shooting a lot... I'd see a dog or a horse or cow or whatever... and in my "mind's eye" I would picture where the bullet would have to hit, and what path the bullet would have to follow in order to achieve a killing shot... remember bullets like to follow a "straight line"... even if the bullet is "arcing" because of distance;

8 - always be aware of where your bullet *may* "end up"... just because you hit what you're aiming at doesn't mean the bullet will stop there...

hope that helps!

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## NCO

> perfect practice makes perfect there is no other remedy


Agreed!

Also joining the army helps a bit... You will have no choice but to learn how to shoot properly.

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## RBB

Very interesting reading.

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## Pict

The best preparation you can get is simply practice with your weapon.  Get yourself a decent BB gun or air rifle and shoot alot until you are able to hit what you aim at.  Head shots drop small game very quickly.  Mac

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## Sourdough

This thread is both shocking and disturbing......I have long been of the understanding that "ALL" Men could shoot 1/4" groups at 100 YARDS, this being needed for driving tacks.  :Smash:  :Smash:  :Smash:  :Smash: 



 :Sneaky2:

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## Ken

> This thread is both shocking and disturbing......I have long been of the understanding that "ALL" Men could shoot 1/4" groups at 100 YARDS, this being needed for driving tacks.


Best I could do at 600 yards.  Sorry, Hopeak.  :Innocent: 
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/155target600yd2950.jpg  :Innocent:  :Innocent:  :Innocent:

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## tennecedar

I would have to say practice with what you're going to hunt with. Small caliber rounds are great to hone your skills with. But, I've seen people flinch when hunting big game. Folks that I know have shot for years. I asked them what happened and the usual response is "I'm not used to it yet" or "I knew it was gonna kick hard". Some shooters seam to have a fear of recoil. Some flinch at the bang. Even when someone else is firing. All that goes away with practice.

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## Alpine_Sapper

And some just freeze when the see that rack in their sites/scope. Nothing more frustrating than watching a novice hunter not squeeze the trigger on a perfect shot because "I was scared. I've never killed anything before." I mean,  christ, it's an animal your going to EAT, not a homicide. I think I could have understood it if it was a female, but this was someone who should not have had any qualms about dropping a buck.I had to resist the urge to slug him.

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## Ole WV Coot

[QUOTE=hopeak;111054]This thread is both shocking and disturbing......I have long been of the understanding that "ALL" Men could shoot 1/4" groups at 100 YARDS, this being needed for driving tacks.  :Smash:  :Smash:  :Smash:  :Smash: 


 Would you believe my dear uncle Sam that is had BB guns without sights and could teach you to hit another BB in the air with one??? Point shooting training. :Nod:

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## lucznik

I do not recommend head/neck shots on big game, except for those who are highly experienced as well as supremely familiar and well-practiced with their rifle.  Even then, taking such a shot is risky and requires that the shooter: know the exact trajectory of their bullet, know the exact range at which they are shooting, and have no external environmental factors (wind, rain, etc.) that will unduly affect trajectory, limit their shots to "gimme" distances. 

If you miss a head/neck shot it MIGHT be a clean miss.  However, you might just do something like blow off the animal's bottom jaw; in which case they will suffer long and  painfully before dying from starvation. 

90+% of hunters and especially ALL novices should shoot for the vitals, right behind the front leg and about 1/3 of the way up the body.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> I
> 
> If you miss a head/neck shot it MIGHT be a clean miss.  However, you might just do something like blow off the animal's bottom jaw; in which case they will suffer long and  painfully before dying from starvation.


Personally I think if you blow off his bottom jaw he's gonna bleed out long before he would die of starvation. That, or the infection would kill him. Not humane by any means, but a lot prettier picture than a jawless deer wandering around int the woods for WEEKS.

Besides, if you use a big enough round, it won't matter if you don't hit the sweet spot in the ear. You can hit him in the jaw and still take his head off.  :Smile:

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## lucznik

> Also joining the army helps a bit... You will have no choice but to learn how to shoot properly.


  I not so sure about that.  I've often been a bit disappointed at the marksmanship I've seen from the typical soldier.

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## Alpine_Sapper

23/40 is all it takes to qual for the Army.

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## lucznik

> Personally I think if you blow off his bottom jaw he's gonna bleed out long before he would die of starvation. That, or the infection would kill him. Not humane by any means, but a lot prettier picture than a jawless deer wandering around int the woods for WEEKS.


 In this part you are probably correct.  Nonetheless, it still is a needlessly suffering animal which provides no benefit to the hunter. 




> Besides, if you use a big enough round, it won't matter if you don't hit the sweet spot in the ear. You can hit him in the jaw and still take his head off.


This is patently false.  There is no hunting firearm (not even a .50 BMG) that will take off the head of a big-game animal - and most especially not if you hit it in the lower jaw, which would simply be ripped off.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> In this part you are probably correct.  Nonetheless, it still is a needlessly suffering animal which provides no benefit to the hunter. 
> 
> 
> This is patently false.  There is no hunting firearm (not even a .50 BMG) that will take off the head of a big-game animal.


First, If you are talking white tail deer, you are wrong. I'm sorry, but a clean shot from a 50 cal WILL remove the head. I've seen the exit wound that thing will produce. There may be flesh remnants, but there won't be enough left to identify.

Second, maybe this will help you out, since I forgot the smilies in my post;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor

Edit; Looking back, I didn't forget the smilies. You obviously just didn't interpret them for what they were meant as...

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## lucznik

> First, If you are talking white tail deer, you are wrong. I'm sorry, but a clean shot from a 50 cal WILL remove the head. I've seen the exit wound that thing will produce. There may be flesh remnants, but there won't be enough left to identify.


If there was no head, how could there be an "exit wound, " or for that matter an enterance wound?   There would just be a stump at the neck.

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## Alpine_Sapper

I didn't say I'd seen an animal have his head taken off by a .50 cal. What I said was that I've seen the exit wound a .50 cal will produce. 

Obviously, not a head shot, as there wouldn't be anything left for the exit wound, as you so astutely stated.

Hence from logical conclusion, if a .50 will go through an APC from 100yds or so, and keep traveling after penetrating BOTH sides of the armored vehicle, I don't think it would have any trouble taking off a deers head.

but your probably wondering what a .50 penetrating an APC has to do with any of this, so lets just end the argument now before anyone gets mad. You can hold your beliefs, and I'll hold mine.

 K, pumpkin? thnx, bye.

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## DOGMAN

When I want to destroy my prey, I use an Acme Particle Vaporizer.  It works great. I am there exclusive on-line dealer. It will demolish the head of any game animal- guaranteed!


Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Alpine_Sapper

That's it! I need one of those! How much sir? I'll trade you an Akita puppy...

 :Innocent:

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## Ken

> When I want to destroy my prey, I use an Acme Particle Vaporizer.  It works great. I am there exclusive on-line dealer. It will demolish the head of any game animal- guaranteed!


What's the effective range of that thing?  I'm thinking VERY large target in Indiana.  Shot fired from Massachusetts.  Will it work?

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## DOGMAN

Price.  Its always comes down to $$$.  This sir, is the ultimate survival weapon- price should not be an issue. the ACME particle vaporizer is a necessity and you should give me your credit card number so I can just bill you accordingly. The Akita puppy will be considered gratuity! Thank you

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## DOGMAN

> What's the effective range of that thing?  I'm thinking VERY large target in Indiana.  Shot fired from Massachusetts.  Will it work?


If you can visualize it (mentally or physically), the ACME particle vaporizer can hit it.  Just think and destroy!!!!!!!!!

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## Rick

> It will demolish the head of any game animal- guaranteed!


I use mine for fluffy pink bunnies.

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## Ken

> If you can visualize it (mentally or physically), the ACME particle vaporizer can hit it.  Just think and destroy!!!!!!!!!


My credit card number is on its way ........ check your PM's.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> The Akita puppy will be considered gratuity! Thank you




Do I get a discount if the gratuity is a fawn brindle? 

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(Gawd I love these dogs. Only tiger striped camo dog I'd ever seen...)

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## Ken

*THAT* is a beautiful dog!

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## DOGMAN

WoW...that is a beautiful dog!

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## tennecedar

Beautiful breed. I'm not familiar with them. What's their specialty? (what do ya use em for)

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Beautiful breed. I'm not familiar with them. What's their specialty? (what do ya use em for)



Akita's don't all look like that. Mine is actually a black mask sable with black overlay and white undercoat. Kinda like my avatar, but sable (red) instead of fawn. Structurally they are going to look like that, at least American Akitas.

AKC classifies them as a working breed. The were originally bred for hunting bear and deer in Japan, used in male/female pairs.  The japanese and american have had enough differences bred into them that they are no longer the same breed. I prefer the americans because of a stouter bone structure from the mastiff types bred in in the '20s when they were used for fighting. Now?

They make WONDERFUL hunting dogs. Very high prey drive, if a challenge to train. Excellent guard dogs, and while most people will tell you not to have one in an apartment, if you get out and give the dog some exercise, they do wonderfully. They are a hard headed breed though, very intelligent, and the demand to be integrated into the pack, not shoved outside in the yard.  

I've posted this before, but if you want to get a real warm fuzzy for Akita's, read the story of hachiko. While it's a sad story, it shows the breed traits of loyalty, intelligence, etc. to a T.

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## Ken

> I've posted this before, but if you want to get a real warm fuzzy for Akita's, read the story of hachiko. While it's a sad story, it shows the breed traits of loyalty, intelligence, etc. to a T.


It's a movie now.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1028532/

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## Alpine_Sapper

> It's a movie now.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1028532/


holy crap! And it's not even like everyone in it is a scrub. Richard Gere? I'm...stunned.

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## Ken

> holy crap! And it's not even like everyone in it is a scrub. Richard Gere? I'm...stunned.


Looking at the movie info a bit more, I see that it was filmed less than 10 miles from where I live.  _That's_ why Gere was showing up at some of the local eateries!

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## ClayPick

“You can teach a certain amount of it, but there is a large percentage that you must have naturally. A good shooter is born. You can’t teach someone to be a good shot if they don’t naturally have it.”  Cpl. Rob Furlong.

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## lucznik

> ...if a .50 will go through an APC from 100yds or so, and keep traveling after penetrating BOTH sides of the armored vehicle, I don't think it would have any trouble taking off a deers head.
> 
>  K, pumpkin? thnx, bye.


Sorry, but those are two completely separate and unrelated issues involving widely divergent mechanisms of injury.  The one does not logically lead to the conclusion of the other. 


And please don't call me pumpkin.  We're not that close.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> “You can teach a certain amount of it, but there is a large percentage that you must have naturally. A good shooter is born. You can’t teach someone to be a good shot if they don’t naturally have it.”  Cpl. Rob Furlong.


Not to disagree with the corporal there, but, I personally think the situation is reversed. You can teach the majority of it, and make some one a good shooter, but for them to be truly great they have to have some natural aptitude.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Sorry, but those are two completely separate and unrelated issues involving widely divergent mechanisms of injury.  The one does not logically lead to the conclusion of the other. 
> 
> 
> And please don't call me pumpkin.  We're not that close.


Sorry, but what a .50 does to an APC it will do much worse to flesh and bone. If you can't see that then there's no point in talking to you. And uh, no problem, punkin.Have a nice day!

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## ClayPick

> Not to disagree with the corporal there, but, I personally think the situation is reversed. You can teach the majority of it, and make some one a good shooter, but for them to be truly great they have to have some natural aptitude.


True, but i guess what Furlong considers to be a good shot would be quite elevated. :Smile:

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## Rick

Anyone have an APC, a deer and a .50 handy? We can settle this pretty quick. Wouldn't it be logical to conclude that yes it would and no it wouldn't? Depending on distance, terrain, humidity, angle of impact, etc. etc. etc.

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Anyone have an APC, a deer and a .50 handy? We can settle this pretty quick. Wouldn't it be logical to conclude that yes it would and no it wouldn't? Depending on distance, terrain, humidity, angle of impact, etc. etc. etc.


lol. I was thinking something along the same lines. Since this is a completely theoretical argument, it's pretty much pointless to keep going.

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## Rick

Thanks, pumpkin. :Innocent:

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Thanks, pumpkin.


No problem tweetheart.  :Brickwall:   :hugs:

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## Beans

> Would you believe my dear uncle Sam that is had BB guns without sights and could teach you to hit another BB in the air with one??? Point shooting training.


__________________

Yup  Been there. 

When shooting Cowboy matches I still only use the front sight on the rifle.  No problem Hitting the targets out to 50 yards.

I have also shot coyotes on the run using only the front sight, _under 60 yards_

Just put it where you want the bullet to go.


FWIW I have been a Certified NRA firearms instructor since 1978, and in my humble experience teaching someone that will listen and apply what they are taught  will result in a better, read that as _a more accurate shooter_ then the natural born shooter that knows everything and won't accept instructions.

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## Ole WV Coot

[QUOTE=Beans;111421]__________________

Yup  Been there. 

You're about as old as I am. Thought that was only taught in the '60s. One thing, I was taught to shoot by my Grandpa & Dad but for some reason handguns just came naturally. Not talking about bulls eye, had to learn a little on that but practical pistol or point shooting I can't remember when I didn't have what seems like a natural aptitude or maybe I just started around 55yrs ago and don't remember. I still fire 50 minimum in a 22 a few times a week and empty my carry 45 & mags once a month. I don't wear glasses, hate them but I rely on point shooting completely now. I don't have a stance, use either hand from any position, use one or two hands and am unorthodox so I do think natural aptitude is there but training will enhance it and some folks never learn, why I wouldn't try to guess.

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## Rick

> I just started around 55yrs ago and don't remember


At our age it's hard to remember why we walked into the bathroom. You almost need to carry a check list.

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## Beans

> You're about as old as I am. Thought that was only taught in the '60s.


You are right!  USMC Ret.  1961-1971 




> I don't wear glasses, hate them but I rely on point shooting completely now.


 Glasses?  Not yet but I am getting close.  My eyes test at 20/30.  In my *young* days my eyes tested 10/20

 I point shoot my pistols under 10 yards.  I have been shooting "COWBOY" (SASS) since 1988 and I can't remember when I looked at the sights instead of the target. 

I just attended my  first IDPA workshop, as I have never shot that style of match. Under 10 yards I didn't use my sights on the floppers either: ( Bad guy moving or hostage target moving.) I did use the sights on the steel knockdowns at 15 yards.

My split times using my Glock was .22, .24,  and .22 between 3 shots. on *a* floppers and *Yes* they hit the COM circle on the IDPA target just over an inch apart

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## wildography

> I point shoot my pistols under 10 yards.


Good point; I remember reading an FBI statistic, one time, that said that most of the shootings (in which agents were involved) were at an average distance of 7 yards.

So, when I used to shoot a lot, I would practice "combat shooting" at 7 yards - or less.  My 3 "basic" stances were 1) hip shooting; similar to "cowboy style" fast draw; 2) a custom modified "modified Weaver stance" - I'd twist my upper body further toward my "strong side" and bring the handgun further within my range of control; 3) a "close-in" guard stance - shooting from the hip while using body positioning and my left arm to simulate fending off an attacker within arm's reach.

Of course, if you're wearing body armor... you don't want to turn your side toward the shooter, as that is where your "weak points" are.

Oh, by the way, most of my "points" (in this post and others) are geared toward human targets. I use different methods for "non-human" targets.

That's an important point to keep in mind: your choice of shooting stances and "style" of shooting would vary with many different variables... you should practice them all.  You'd use different styles of "shooting platforms" based on weapon selection, range, terrain conditions, shooting situations, target type, etc.

When I was a member of the "Emergency Services Team" in the U.S.A.F., I would even practice "speed shooting" by facing away from the target, drawing and firing _behind_ me by shooting under my left arm... I got to where I could hit center-mass at 7 yards, even though my feet were facing away from the target. Of course, I did this on my own... the Range Master would probably get pissed if you tried this at your local shooting range.

the key to becoming a better shot is practice, practice, practice...

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## trax

Well given that this thread was started by a woman who wanted to know more about shooting moose or caribou, chances are she won't be needing body armor. I've never seen either of them shoot back, although I suspect my statement may elicit some kind of cartoon from one of our super-moderators.

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## Rick

Due to economic constraints, moose will no longer be employed to appear in frivolous cartoons. All questions that would have required moose models will now be forwarded to Maude for a response. (think carefully before you ask!).

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## tennecedar

Had to be posted.

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## trax

Rick, is that a MAUDE-erator?

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## Rick

I wondered if someone would make the connection. You are just gooooooooood! She's not just a Maude-erator. Look closely, she has two six guns and two badges. She's a Super Maude-erator.

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## trax

Well given that the  original post was about being a good shot, I'm a little disappointed that you didn't come up with a photograph of Bea Arthur with a sniper's rifle.

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## crashdive123

Not wanting to disappoint......

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## trax

Ah yes. Awnold Schwahzennmooser.

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## Rick

I'm no expert but if you consistently shoot the little round circle inside all the other circles doesn't that make you a good shot? If I'm right then just shoot the little circle. Presto. Good shot. Problem solved. You can go back to napping (or knapping) now.

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