# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > General Homesteading >  Solar Power for home

## Dennis K.

Hi All,
I've just started looking into solar power systems for my home.  What I've found so far is everything from "Build your own solar panels for under $200" to complete systems that would require a 2nd mortgage.
Specifically, what I am interested in is a system that supplements what I get from the grid, and one that can dump power back into the grid when it is running at peak efficiency.  The stuff I've found on the web seems mostly hype and sales gimmicky.
Can anyone point me to some resources that they have some experience with?
Thanks in advance - 
DK

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## Riverrat

I have been looking at that for the past year or so, found this magazine to be helpful.   http://www.homepower.com/404/  Hope this helps out a bit. Everything I read or hear says to start with hot water, and keep building from there.

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## Dennis K.

That is EXACTLY what I need!  Thank you!

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## wildWoman

What will really save you money is just curbing your electricity consumption big time. I lived 8 years without power, no 12V batteries, no generator, no nothing, and didn't miss anything. I know, kind of hard to do depending what kind of house/apartment you live in.

Check out the wind up radios that Freeplay offers. They have their own tiny solar panel in addition to the hand crank, come with a 2 year warranty and really work great. Can't say enough about them.

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## Dennis K.

Working on that, too.  More efficient usage + More conservation effort has been a great start.
Solar supplement is the next step.
I can't go the "no electricity" route.  My income comes from desktop publishing, so I must have a 'puter.

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## Rick

Be aware of those vampire appliances. They can really cost you: 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0926065912.htm

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## Ouchmypancreas

This link no longer works, but I would love to get that article and save *myself* a year of research.  Can you help me out?  Thanks :Smile:

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## Ouchmypancreas

Oops, the link to the homepower article, is what Im referring to.

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## crashdive123

Are you talking about the link in post #2?  It came up for me.  Hey - when you get a chance, head on over to the Introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  Thanks.

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## SARKY

check out www.Konarka.com   . They are producing a product called power plastic. It is a thin film plastic that uses inks instesd of silicon to produce photovoltaic power. once in full production it should cost about one tenth that of silicon cells and is a lot more efficient. Normally the big cost in a home/grid system is the inverter which allows you to feed the grid when you aren't using the power.

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## endurance

When I first moved into my house my average electrical consumption was 240-310kwh/month.  Through the conversion to CFL lightbulbs throughout the house, going to extremes to have only one light on at a time in the room that I'm in, going from a desktop to laptop computer, and using a bread machine rather than the oven to bake bread, I've cut that down to 140-210kwh/month.  This year I bought a Sundanzer freezer that will run on a single 75w solar panel and a deep cycle battery (runs on 12 or 24vdc).  

My point being is if you wanted to supply power to your current needs without conservation and more efficient appliances, you'd spend $15-45k.  If you conserve and use the best appliances you can have a much smaller system that may only cost $7-12k.  While a $1000 freezer may seem expensive, the solar panels needed to run a typical freezer would cost roughly the same amount.  As appliances wear out, replace them with the very most efficient and they'll pay for themselves.  Buy or borrow a Kill-a-watt meter and find the appliances that are really costing you and focus on them first.  I'll tell you straight away, your refrigerator is probably 20-30% of your electricity bill.

Ultimately, there's a number of inexpensive suppliers if you want to do it yourself and be off grid.  If you want grid-tied, you'll need a professional installer to at least inspect and wire (but you my be able to mount the panels yourself with some installers to save money).  One place to start is your local utility supplier.  They may have a rebate program that will pay for up to 50% of your system if you're going grid-tied.  If you're going off-grid, you have a lot more flexibility, but nobody is going to give you a tax credit or rebate... but then again, when the lines go down in the middle of the night, you'll still have power...

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## UnknownWarrior

> What will really save you money is just curbing your electricity consumption big time. I lived 8 years without power, no 12V batteries, no generator, no nothing, and didn't miss anything. I know, kind of hard to do depending what kind of house/apartment you live in.
> 
> Check out the wind up radios that Freeplay offers. They have their own tiny solar panel in addition to the hand crank, come with a 2 year warranty and really work great. Can't say enough about them.


Hello WildWoman,
I would like to know more how you lived all those eight years. WHat kind of problems did you face, how did you manage and how did you feel without electricity all the time?

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## Winnie

Hi Dennis, I'd agree with Endurance. Your first step is definitely to reduce your present consumption. The other thing a lot of folk forget is to regularly descale your kettle, coffeemaker, dishwasher and washing machine. That alone makes a huge difference as the heating element works more efficiently, it also prolongs the life of your machine. HTH

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## sgtdraino

You guys might be interested in seeing Les Stroud's documentary, "Off the Grid," where he and his family build a self-sufficient homestead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg7EaLIJrBw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZCrP2K5IOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elpPtuj4gvI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x479Nochpw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTTJa-kccS4&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO01Sy1yy4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3KrAEvO2VM

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## OhioHillbilly

My son had me look around for some ideas on solar power. I found this sight one day. At that time they claimed that soon they would be able to make solar energy affordable for most people, under a dollar a K hour...if I remember right.

http://http://www.nanosolar.com

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## Dennis K.

Hi All,
I've been at a new job, so haven't signed on in awhile, but glad to see this thread still active.
The phantom appliances have made a difference.  Same w/ changed out the light bulbs.  Also, I changed out an AC unit, and that cut my monthly utility bill by over $100.
As before, I'm still running into a lot of Solar Power gimmicky salesmen - lotsa hype about how much money I'll make by selling electricity back to the power companies.  Maybe I'm a bit too skeptical, but usually, if something seems to good to be true, it is.  
So, in my house, I am the "Light Nazi."  I keep ramping up ways to conserve, reduce, and re-use.  Those are VERY effective strategies.  Solar panels are moving up the priority list, especially as I get more reliable information.

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## Stony

we just bought a 2 year old 4 panel, 8 battery system for $5500.
it is complete with cables, inverters, back-up generator a.s.o.
the guy paid $ 12 000 in 2007 and went bankrupt.
he also trys to sell his 40.

we dont need such a large system, so we keep a few parts and sell the rest.

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## UnknownWarrior

If I use a solar hot water heater, would it be able to heat water even in cloudy / rainy / wintery days to some extent given enough time?

Or using a solar cooker / oven having enough panels would be better choice?

I hope someone has used these here.

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## Chris

Remember, the federal government now chips in for 30% of the cost of your solar power system, UNCAPPED.

Get a net metering power meter and dump it back on the grid if you have excess, no expensive batteries needed.

I would get multiple quotes and compare them on a dollars to peak kilawatt ratio.

Also, on the topic of wasting energy, check out this

http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?lt1=_blan...ins=B00009MDBU

It tells you exactly how much energy something is using, good for identifying things that use energy even when turned off.

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## Rick

He's from India so dumping back in the grid might not be an option.

If I were you, I would look at either purchasing and building one of three types of heaters. 

Flat Plate collector
Integral Collector-storage
Evacuated tube collectors

The first one works by passing the water through a series of tubes on the roof that are housed in a box. The top of the box is clear plastic and the bottom of the box is black to absorb heat. The suns rays pass through the plastic and heat the inside of the box. The water is heated as it passes through the tubes inside the box. The only thing you have running is a small electric pump to pump the water. 

The second one is little more than a large black tank or series of black tanks. The sun heats the tanks, heating the water. You can even run this in series with a flat plate collector. 

The last one is similar to the first but instead of having the tubes enclosed in a box they are equipped with metal wings that run the length of the pipe and absorbs the suns heat transferring into the water. This one is a little more complicated than the first two. 

A standard electric water heater uses the most energy of any appliance in a house. I would think that would be a very inefficient way to heat water with a solar panel and batteries.

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## UnknownWarrior

I found a good site having low cost solutions for many things including solar heaters:

http://www.sharingsustainablesolutions.org

It's a useful site and will be useful to many ofus here I think.

I'm trying THIS low cost solar water pre-heater tho there are no pics but the idea is quite easy to apply. I had sent a few emails to the author a got no replies since long. Just need some sand, will post back later how it works:

http://www.sharingsustainablesolutio...er-pre-heated/

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## Rick

I really like the sand heater. That's about as simple of a setup as you could ask for.

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## Chris

Solar thermal is far more efficient than voltaics.

I've seen it on TV where it produces hot water even in cloudy weather, then I saw this:

http://www.seanmichaelturrell.com/se...n_watheat.html

Which is basically an old hot water heater, painted black, put into a styrofoam housing with a glass top and a reflective interior. Basically a big solar oven, and it seemed compelling. Supposedly that guy sells it as a kit, but good luck tracking him down, I don't think they mentioned his business name.

Though, there is a video before that I couldn't find, that shows them building the thing, so maybe they do in that part of the video.

Really though, a metal tank or pipe, painted black, under glass, in the sun. It'll heat up.

The thing is though, I don't know about you, but I only pay about $10 a month for hot water. So the timeline for payback for me on a solar thermal system, as inexpensive as they can be, just isn't worth it.

Now if I had a pool....

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## UnknownWarrior

> Solar thermal is far more efficient than voltaics.
> 
> I've seen it on TV where it produces hot water even in cloudy weather, then I saw this:
> 
> http://www.seanmichaelturrell.com/se...n_watheat.html


I don't know what's up with that link. It kept my network constantly busy for a long time without loading the page completely.




> Really though, a metal tank or pipe, painted black, under glass, in the sun. It'll heat up.
> 
> Now if I had a pool....


How 'bout this:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Sola...led-materials/

Also scroll down and read the comments about the Fresnel Lens by NikonDork. It's amaZing:
http://www.instructables.com/files/d...NAP.MEDIUM.jpg

And here:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/...l-it-lens.html

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## lanahi

> When I first moved into my house my average electrical consumption was 240-310kwh/month.  Through the conversion to CFL lightbulbs throughout the house, going to extremes to have only one light on at a time in the room that I'm in, going from a desktop to laptop computer, and using a bread machine rather than the oven to bake bread, I've cut that down to 140-210kwh/month.  This year I bought a Sundanzer freezer that will run on a single 75w solar panel and a deep cycle battery (runs on 12 or 24vdc).  
> 
> My point being is if you wanted to supply power to your current needs without conservation and more efficient appliances, you'd spend $15-45k.  If you conserve and use the best appliances you can have a much smaller system that may only cost $7-12k.  While a $1000 freezer may seem expensive, the solar panels needed to run a typical freezer would cost roughly the same amount.  As appliances wear out, replace them with the very most efficient and they'll pay for themselves.  Buy or borrow a Kill-a-watt meter and find the appliances that are really costing you and focus on them first.  I'll tell you straight away, your refrigerator is probably 20-30% of your electricity bill.
> 
> Ultimately, there's a number of inexpensive suppliers if you want to do it yourself and be off grid.  If you want grid-tied, you'll need a professional installer to at least inspect and wire (but you my be able to mount the panels yourself with some installers to save money).  One place to start is your local utility supplier.  They may have a rebate program that will pay for up to 50% of your system if you're going grid-tied.  If you're going off-grid, you have a lot more flexibility, but nobody is going to give you a tax credit or rebate... but then again, when the lines go down in the middle of the night, you'll still have power...


I understand when you connect to the grid with your solar energy, when the power goes out on the grid, it goes out for you too.  If you are unconnected from the grid, you still will have power.  It'd be nice to sell some of the excess solar energy back to the electric company (and they are required to buy it) through a reverse meter, but there is that big disadvantage in remaining connected which really is a big one.

I can't see why you couldn't have SOME of the solar energy remain off the grid, though, being wired up seperately.

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## Rick

You install a transfer switch. Power grid fails you run on solar/batteries. Power grid comes back up your run on the grid. Same as a generator.

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## lanahi

> You install a transfer switch. Power grid fails you run on solar/batteries. Power grid comes back up your run on the grid. Same as a generator.


Okay, good to know.

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## Rick

There is a gravity switch and a manual switch. The gravity switch works like the name implies. The power grid is on and a small electro magnet holds the switch up (open). As soon as the grid fails, the switch drops by gravity and transfers the house to solar/battery. Once the grid comes back up the switch is pulled back up and you're back on the grid. 

A manual switch requires you to manually transfer. 

I'm sure there are other options that allow you to run. You're correct on the power company buying excess electricity, too.

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## wareagle69

up here it costs me 4.5 cents per mega watt
the electirc company is paying 80 cents per mega watt see why i want to invest in solar

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## Mountain Man

I believe here in CA we get the federal 30% rebate + CA rebate for grid tie system is at something like 2.5$kw in the end it's ~50% off your panels basically. (It's a tiered system and I believe we are around 2.5 right now)

The problem is the HUGE markup in having someone who's certified handle it all and get it all installed... you can pretty much save the 30% doing it yourself :-/

We priced out solar electricity and it was anywhere from 12k to 18k for the pannels/electronics and another 3-6k for the batteries. And our home has no central heat / air, and propane stove, etc.. I can't imagine what a city home with tons of electronic appliances, heating, etc would run... I`m sure you would double the solar cost. (Solar cost is for parts alone not labor)

Pricey.

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## wildWoman

> Hello WildWoman,
> I would like to know more how you lived all those eight years. WHat kind of problems did you face, how did you manage and how did you feel without electricity all the time?


I lived well and cheaply and faced no problems (non connected to living electricity-free, that is). Cooked on propane, heated with wood, had kerosene lamps, stayed at home when it was below -30C and the truck wouldn't start, used rechargeable batteries in my cd player and charged them at work in town, shared freezer space with a friend in town, did laundry at the laundromat, hauled water in buckets, used the phone booth and internet access in town. 

Easy, hassle-free. Anyone can do it and save themselves a whack of money and the headaches connected with it. 
If we had road access where we live now, I'd still be doing things that way.

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## wareagle69

a couple of things here on this. i went to a conference on solar water heating this week, so i picked up a few thing but i am still very new so here goes
one- at least in canada to qualify for the rebate you must have it installed by a certified installer, most places will not sell you the panels (the end user) only to a dealer who will then sell it to you at a mark up
now there are some differences in the systems open loop(atmosperic) and closed loop, open loop can be used seasonal and closed loop uses glycol
the easiest system is the theremal siphon ype basically just a tank and panel good for summer or warm weather climates
then a direct circulation which has again a tank and panel but now also incorporates a pump(more money) but more effective then you get into drain down systems(not very good) and a drain back sytem which is the best.
also these do not replace water heaters. the water heater now becomes an auxillary tank, the solar just basically preheats the water so when your tank calles for water, where it normally would have been at 60 degrees and now has to heat up to 140degrees the solar hot water would keep it at 90 or 100 degrres and u use less elcetrcity to heat up the tank, now the problem can also occur of the panels heating up to much in which case you lose alot of efficiency from your panels and if you have a closed loop you degrade your glcol faster , glycol need to be replaced every 3 to 10 years anyways and the year you replace it you lose you savings for that year so you do not want your system overheating, also the more parts you add, pumps and such the more the cost goes up as does replacement and repairs
basically as rick said if you have a pool this is a greaat idea, if for hot water in the house not so great , unless you are green then you are doing it to help the enviroment, solar hot water is best in commercial applications where a house may use one or two panels commercial would use many more and that is where the cost effectiveness comes into play.
hope this helps

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## Scratch

Each state will be different as far as incentives go.  Here in Pennsylvania, you need a certified “PA Approved” Installer.  Installed rates seem to be anywhere from $6.50 to $8.00 per watt.  The federal government kicks in 30% tax credit, currently PA state kicks in $1.75 - $2.50 per watt rebate depends on what tier you enter your application in.  It comes to about 55-60% back in tax credits.  The problem with this is it is all on the back end of the project.  This means you have to have the money upfront or be able to get a loan to finance the project.  Also you need to have a documented shading study done before PA state approves your rebate, which actually makes sence.  
Another sales pitchy thing you may come across is the sale of an SREC.  This stands for Solar Renewable Energy Credit.  Again, each state will be different.  Here in PA governor Rendell and his cohorts passed a law that the utility has to buy so much of their energy in renewables.  So, what happens is you install your system, create an SREC and sell it to the utility.  This is done on an internet platform called gats (PA).  Oh yeah, 1 SREC= 1000kwh of produced energy, I think this is standard terminology for all states.  Right now in PA 1 SREC sells for about $275.00.  One thing to keep in mind, this is much like a commodity the price will rise and fall with demand.  Could be $600.00 bucks tomorrow or $50.00 tomorrow.  Who knows . . ..  .  It is significant because it greatly effects the payback time of your system installed.  Also, SRECs are considered taxable income.  


Oh, one more catch, your 30% federal tax credit or PA rebate is no good unless you are tied into the grid.  Yes, in most cases if the grid goes down, you will loose your power.  There is a way to avoid this, but I have not researched it.  

I think the technology is sound, I just don’t think it is very affordable yet.  Plus where I live it would take a lot of panels to wipe out my bill.

I also agree with the others, before photovoltaic’s are purchased, a home study should be conducted.

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## ets80

Best solar system available right now is from Dow-Find them online.  It will cost you a second and third mortgage though.

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## BLEUXDOG

Can't beat that $4.25 electric bill... :Yes:

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## Wise Old Owl

Here is the rub. +1 we didn't invite Dennis to come back and discover the + side of his decision and we have no idea if it worked out for him... It's been two years did he pull the cord or what?

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## hunter63

Always seems these these thread die before you find out what happened.

Interesting subject, and something I have been kinda fooling with for may years.....mostly going thru a planning drill before off loading a lot of dollars.
Planning including looking for and buying land that was on a south facing hill side....original plan was an "Earth ship", hill side house......eliminate a lot of need for supplement heat/cooling.

Backed off of that for several reasons....cost, building codes, lifestyle, many things.....ended up with cabin.

Doing a energy audit quickly pointed out the need for energy conservation before energy manufacture.....as well as a very interesting conversation with our Co-op, who originally had said, "We won't do Net metering.....we aren't big enough, and are not required to....To bad"

A good battery bank is 1/2 to 3/4 of the cost of a system, so a net metering system will save you a lot of start up money, but will go off when the grid is down.

Ideally a combination system with the necessary switching and code approved wiring, battery bank that could stand alone....... is the goal. 

Turn out that I did find a Co-op customer that had a stand along system, that had connected to the net metering program.....and was my neighbor!.....Small world.

So my short term goal is a small 12 V system, not intended to power a whole house, but strictly back up, radios lights etc.


Overall, seems a good complete system can only be afforded by some one with enough money that they do it because they want to....not have to....LOL...Ain't that always the way?

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## Dennis K.

At the time, I found a TON of conflicting information.  I couldn't even definitively determine if my electric provider would allow a grid-tied system.  And as far as selling back surplus electric, I couldn't find a person with my provider who would even talk to me about it.  Also, after digging quite a bit, the initial investment for my home was gonna be between $15K and $20K.  At the time, I was not in a position to spend that much.
I am still very interested and need to look some more at current information - and I stress "current" because when I was looking before, there were some sites that changed information every few days - usually it was the sites that had to do with electrical buy-back rules and regs.  I think it is worth a look, but ultimately, I will need someone with real expertise.

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## hunter63

That's about how it goes.......
Couple or things.......You are not gonna make any money making and selling power back to the electric company, best case scenario is that they pay  or mostly credit you at the rate THEY pay, up to a net of zero.

I had looked into it as the cabin sits at least for now, empty when we are not there.......so there would be a potential to gain on any continuous usage...refrig (have a valid reason for letting it run), shed light, heat tapes and such.

I had looked into an off grid system, and with a big enough array, batteries, and inverter,(approx 7.5 watt per audit)... fits into your 15K to 20K range...so there is no economic advantage, (power at road, connected)...so unless my reason was to just be off the grid for the sake of being off the grid, or truely expecting TEOTWAWKI...it's a redundent use of funds (maybe better spent?)
Be aware that even a off grid system with batteries require a "dump load"....can't over load the batteries....LOL.

This may have been different if I was way off the grid, with heavy cost to get there, 20k-to 30k has been spent around here.

This told me to spend my money on windows, insulation and alternate heat sources.....That's in process.

Now another part myth, cost is being cover in a large part by the goverment......truth most government grants, and loans come with all sorts if strings, and are mostly a "blow green sunshine up your kazoo"....get it, sunshine.....You are gonna be responsible for most all the cost, and be limited what you can use or how installs it.....the codes are enforced.

The Co-op has started working with people so maybe in the furture....

PS there most likely are 'advisiors in your area that do the audit, lay out a system, suggest companies etc......You will pay a hefty fee....They deal with businesses and such and don't fool around with "hobbyist"....I consider my self a hobbyist.......Pay the fee you are now a player.

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## crashdive123

Dennis K - Tjwilhelm might be able to help you.  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...3881-tjwilhelm

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## BLEUXDOG

I put in 33 panels and generate more than I use during the winter and use the credits in the summer. The $4.25 is the charge for them to do the billing. They won't pay until you sell the property and they won't help with tax credits on a system that is projected to generate more than you use. They don't really want you to make money just use less electricity from the grid.

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