# Prepping / Emergency Preparedness > General Emergency Preparedness >  How do you defend a retreat....Good question?

## Sourdough

So how do you defend a remote, or semi-remote cabin, retreat, ranch, bunker...??? Really if you have a small war only once a week against interlopers. What do you do with dead bodies...??? You have security cameras, fence, gates, guns, night vision stuff. You have 24 hour guards?

I dress up like a State Trooper and walk right up to the door. You assume that it is a State Trooper.

Five guys and one lady leader go to G.I. Joe's and buy uniforms, starch them, press them, polish the boots, and walk up to the retreat door. Don't tell me you are going to open fire. No your not.

I set your out building on fire. What are you going to do Watch it burn? No, you and most of the people come running to put the fire out.

If someone fires a rifle 1/2 a mile away I come out of my cabin. Is he plinking, is he in trouble, is he yelling at a bear? I don't stay inside.

I don't think you really can defend your retreat, cabin, etc.. You can't kill everyone. There are dozens of ways to trick you. Like a half naked lady screaming help me, help me, he's trying to kill me, help me. Or the 6 year old child crying for help.

I really would like good ideas about security.

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## Rick

Hopeak - You offer some very good questions and it doesn't have to be your retreat. One of those or similar scenarios could certainly be used at your home today. If someone or a group is intent on doing you harm or taking your possessions and have a bit a creativity about them then those could become very real scenarios. 

1. You have to be alert to the person and the context. For example, if the state trooper comes to my door there had better be a state police car in front of my house and he will still show his badge first. Same for military. I had better see vehicle and military ID. I raised three kids and didn't have the police here often but they did show up a time or two. I asked for a badge each time. 

2. For the fire, naked lady, child scenario, one person stays inside and calls 911/sheriff/police while one armed person investigates. That's just personal protection. I hope that doesn't sound paranoid but my handgun is going to be on me when I go out the door. What if the naked lady scenario is real and the guy is out there? 

Some scenarios could just take you by surprise so it's important someone (or some) stay behind. I wish I could find the military reference for this but I read recently it takes 7 fighters to overcome 1 defender. That's pretty good odds for the home owner.

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## RobertRogers

Very tough to defend 100%.  If someone wants to get you they can no matter how much you prepare.

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## wareagle69

yes and no lets pretend i have a hidden underground bunker with hidden ventalation you cold burn the house down but the bunker is safe the camera sysytem surrounding the house is set up in such a way as no blind spots and a camera is always covering another camera so can't sneak up on one camera to disable it, i also have line of site around the house so if a "victim" is yelling i can observe also send one person out to help while covered by sniper 6 people in bdu's will get shot and killed on my property as for police they will have cars they never roll one at a time out here anymore new mandate and i will have id presented on camera and a phone call in to verify which is well within my rights just ask my lawyer, some people will fall for this kind of bs but not a paranoind er i mean prepared indivivual...

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## Sourdough

> yes and no lets pretend i have a hidden underground bunker with hidden ventalation you cold burn the house down but the bunker is safe the camera sysytem surrounding the house is set up in such a way as no blind spots and a camera is always covering another camera so can't sneak up on one camera to disable it, i also have line of site around the house so if a "victim" is yelling i can observe also send one person out to help while covered by sniper 6 people in bdu's will get shot and killed on my property as for police they will have cars they never roll one at a time out here anymore new mandate and i will have id presented on camera and a phone call in to verify which is well within my rights just ask my lawyer, some people will fall for this kind of bs but not a paranoind er i mean prepared indivivual...


So you have never left your home once in the last 5 years????? You never go outside for any reason ever????

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## Sourdough

wareagle69, What do I do with all the bodies? Just leave them? As for the Police. The nearest State Trooper is one hour away. And if the SHTF and he ain't getting paid, because the State is out of business, well he is going to be looking after his family, not my butt.

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## Sourdough

And if you are in remote Alaska there is not State Troopers to call, and no phone to call on.

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## BraggSurvivor

IMO, a State Trooper or Police Officer is the last person youll see if SHTF.

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## wareagle69

yes but you are the one who brought up the point about a state trooper coming to my door not out in alsaka but a question in general and i posted a typical response in which i have very legal right to ask for id and wait until i have confirmation of id.
 now in a shtf scenario i am not worried about johny law showing up and at that time my alert sttus goes up.

 as far as me never going outside yes i do all the time already covered that in the other thread, i am not immune to being sniped but if your intent is just killing you will only get one if your intent is to gain acsess to my stores you just shot down that opp.

                       always be prepared.

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## Sourdough

O.K. other than Cameras which I have recording. Killer Poodles, that can lick you to death. I think Dogs (Not Killer Poodles) are a very cost effective security asset. I need a real good gate, the D-8 Dozer makes a good summer gate, but is hard to start at -36F. I also am cleared for wildfire. I am not building a bunker. Well I might bury one of my 20' Connex's and put a out building on top. So Wareagle, what else would you suggest.

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## wareagle69

i like my bunker with hidden opening behind a hidden opening with tunnels leading to all out buildings i could stay put under ground just like a coy dog for a while but i need to be more consious of security being and hour and a half from town where as you seem to be more secluded.

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## crashdive123

Not to stray too far away from this but, have any of you seen the old missile silo's  that have been converted into pretty nice homes.  Easily defendable, large, self sufficient.  Kind of cost prohibative though.

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## wareagle69

great concept but at what cost? i'll stick with my bunkers

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## Rick

Not to give up any trade secrets but what design did you base you bunkers on or is it something you came up with?

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## wareagle69

my own design

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## Sourdough

> i like my bunker with hidden opening behind a hidden opening with tunnels leading to all out buildings i could stay put under ground just like a coy dog for a while but i need to be more consious of security being and hour and a half from town where as you seem to be more secluded.


I am same, same at 70 MPH I am 1 1/2 hours south of Los Anchorage. Gang bangers, punks, thieves and other scum steal fuel from my "Decoy" trucks. I call the Troopers and get, "We will be there in 3 or 4 days, We have bodies to recover from the Turnagain Avalanche that killed two last week, and we have a plane down in PWS. And besides who cares??? It is a property crime. I tell them I have been robbed. They say, "you were not robbed, you were burgled".

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## crashdive123

I think that it's safe to say that if somebody, or a group os somebodies is intent on taking your life and stuff, and they have the means and ability to do so, then they can.  I think what everybody is saying is to endeavour to make that less desirable.  Don't become a target of oppurtunity, be aware of your surroundings, be aware of the current environment that you are in and deal with it accordingly.

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## Sourdough

That is what I be saying................... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Sam

I being a city dweller have to count on keeping a low profile. If people don't know you have stuff your half way there. When I was a kid I lived with my grandfather in south Mississippi. Out far enough that you saw a state trooper or sheriff on the main road.
 If you put signs out on your land and some one ignored them it was up to you what happened.  In Seattle I called the police to report a dog being beaten by a group of punks,
it took me 15 min. to explain where I was calling from. And I never saw the cops. By the time I gave up on the cops and grabbed my shotgun, the dog was dead. Now I don't call the cops.

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## Sourdough

> That's a good question Hopeak...
> To answer it...maybe we should reverse the question...
> How would you attack a remote cabin or retreat ?


By air assault. That would be the most convenient, and safest. However attacking people or property is not my department.

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## BraggSurvivor

Careful of the trip wires....... :Wink:

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## Sourdough

> Careful of the trip wires.......


I'll put the wire cutter on the landing gear. or just slip it in, full flaps, door open.

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## Rick

You know whats gonna happen Hopeak. WE will be out there this week installing Hitler asparagus and barrage balloons.

(Bragg thinking to himself) Barrage balloons. Yeah.....

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## Sourdough

I have to wonder, "What do the night visitor to this form think" Most likely think I need a drink. Or O' boy the nightmares are going to be bad tonight. Or I better see Remy tomorrow.

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## Ole WV Coot

Unless you spend your life under your bed you should realize that if a person with the ability and no regard for their own escape or personal safety is after you, you can be had. So relax and live a little because you can't do a darn thing about it. No offense intended but the man that talks about how secure or tough he is usually doesn't last very long. That's my opinion because us Rednecks are very peaceable.

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## wareagle69

he is extremley well trained and spent his life training and being trained by the best and oh ya he's probably always prepared(dang why does that sound so familiar)

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## Proud American

I agree with the dont let people know. If they dont know that i have barrels of water,wheat and canned goods im not goin to have to worry. I live in the city and even if I had a full auto assualt rifle my home would still be over run. If you live an hour and a half from anyone why do you need a bunker. When problems happen and were all out of gas do you know how long it would tke for some one to walk to your house. Theres no way they can build a force large enoughf to get to your house and over run it. Also the way you guys are talkin you remind me of those Armeggedon people wich is scary. Bunkers completely useles, even as a bomb shelter cause ther goin to be droppin nuclear bombs on us. Also all laughfin and joking aside if you start stalkin to much the goverment does keep tabs on that sort of stuff.

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## Beo

In a SHTF situation, 95% of your emergency personal will be brought in to the cities if there is a problem there (I said if there is a problem there), I personally would shoot any unknowns coming onto my property in a SHTF situation. Coming from a cop that sounds bad but if the government (federal, state, and local) has broke down then when you read my no trespassing signs it means NO TRESPASSING, the few that are with me will cover anyones attempt to rescue the half naked helpless woman, any movement around the woodline edge and their toast, she turns out to be a decoy and she's dead. A trench about 4 feet deep surrounding the main structure (house) slows down movement to the house, if the attackers go into the trench its a shoting gallery for hte defenders in the houses windows. Old cars rigge to explode by remote are another option for a wall there are a ton of options but will tey work?
As far as atacking like Remy said, I sit back in a sniper hide and pick off anyone moving around the structure from 600 to 800 yards, if possible, *it all depends on how well the structure is fortified.* Personally I don't have a problem dropping someone if I preceive them a threat, in a SHTF situation everyone is a threat. Saying you'll kill someone is easier than doing it though.

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## Sourdough

O.K. Thank you, I think I now understand retreat security. If I have Crazy Coot on one side, Crazy Wareagle on the otherside, Crazy Boewulf infront, I need another crazy for the back. Now I have Crazy "HOPEAK" fully flanked by other crazies. Now I understand Birds of a feather flock together. Not to sure about flocking with wareagle. Might have to move him and his tunnels to the outer edge. So it is just like chess.

Working on plan: "B"  Have a sign made that says, "at the end of this private drive is a crazy person" and he knows Wareagle. :Wink:

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## nell67

Hopeak,iI'll flock with WarEagle,no problem.Sure there are a few more on here who wouldn't have to think twice about it as well. Check mate.

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## Rick

My sign says one of my cans of food has been poisoned. They just lower their rifles, kick chat and keep walkin'. :Big Grin:

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## Beo

My sign says: Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again!
On my house it says: This Home protected by Smith & Wesson, and my my bumper sticker says: Keep Honking Azzhole I'm reloading.

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## Sourdough

I better move Boewulf out past WarEagle. This flocking thing might not work. Could put Nell between Boewulf and WarEagle,

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## Beo

I think we would all make one heck of a survival town :Big Grin:

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## Rick

She gets that close she'll wander over to Trax's then we'll never see either one again.

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## nell67

Hey,even I know there is a time for work,and time for...........play :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

> I think we would all make one heck of a survival town


I have been working on a plan. It started with the SPUD thread. And I asked my self, self are you paying attention, hey self. Any way what would be the perfect layout?

Think wagon wheels, the old spoke wooden wheels. You could lay out a county or large area with many wagon wheels.

The center of the hub is a large courtyard, in old Mexico towns they have the town square. Kinda like that. The courtyard is common property. You buy and own the land between the spokes to the outside rim. Your home is built around the courtyard looking out over your land. This way your back is protected, your flank is protected. and your job is to work your garden, work your fields, and defend your pie shaped area.

There could be as few as five spokes. Four might work.

Normal thinking is the Northern Idaho idea, have a large chunk of land, put the cabin/retreat near the center.

My plan you take 100 acres and divide by five pie shaped tracks and everyone has twenty defensible acres.

You could have the water well in the courtyard.

You could do this with 10 acres or 1000 acres.

You could have school and play ground in the courtyard. If one owner is attacked from across his field, He just yells out the back window, or rings a bell, and half of the others run to his aid...... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## nell67

> I have been working on a plan. It started with the SPUD thread. And I asked my self, self are you paying attention, hey self. Any way what would be the perfect layout?
> 
> Think wagon wheels, the old spoke wooden wheels. You could lay out a county or large area with many wagon wheels.
> 
> The center of the hub is a large courtyard, in old Mexico towns they have the town square. Kinda like that. The courtyard is common property. You buy and own the land between the spokes to the outside rim. Your home is built around the courtyard looking out over your land. This way your back is protected, your flank is protected. and your job is to work your garden, work your fields, and defend your pie shaped area.
> 
> There could be as few as five spokes. Four might work.
> 
> Normal thinking is the Northern Idaho idea, have a large chunk of land, put the cabin/retreat near the center.
> ...


Yea,but who are you going to invite to your wagon wheel?? People you know,or people you JUST met on a forum??

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## Rick

In armored warfare it's call "coiling". It's used when enemy contact is not expected but is possible. Bringing the wagons in a circle just as you describe to protect the infantry, HQ, medical or other non-combat groups.

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## Sourdough

Nell, I guess I was thinking of a better way to sub-divide land in general. People could even do what is called resubdivide. A better way to live. :Smile:

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## Beo

*Fort Hopeak: Notice the fort sits on a hill by a river. Old style fort that works well trees cut back 200 yards, wall is made of stone, houses 50 people and has warehouses for goods storage.* 
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## trax

Remy's point is a good one, if you want to look at how to defend your position, study all the ways to attack a position. (Hey is that Sun Tzu sitting in the corner?)

WarEagle...you have tunnels? Because if you don't..I spent 12 years mining, I know how to make really good ones if I have the right materials.

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## Beo

I still say it all depends on what type of dwelling your defending, and tunnels can be breached from more tunnels.

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## trax

Tunnels through bedrock aren't going to get breached anytime soon

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## Beo

And you arn't gonna dig it all that fast, if you can dig it it can be breeched, breaching is easier than digging the tunnel.

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## nell67

If no one knows they exist other than those who live there,then pretty much no need to worry about if they will be breached.

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## Beo

Finding out is the scouts part, a good scout would do just that, scout the area and find them, now breaching them would be the biggest problem and like Trax said in bedrock you are gonna waste a lot of time and energy trying to do this, but it could be done although the risks do not out weigh the gain if it means losing your people. That and you need someone like Trax to do it. So in the end knowing they have tunnels doesn't mean you can breach them or its workable.

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## Rick

I think WE hired a bunch of Vietnamese to dig his tunnels. He wanted only the best. Sorry, Trax.

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## Beo

Or Pygmies  :Big Grin:

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## trax

Beo..Twink...pay attention. I'm only going to run you through this one time...I asked if he already had the tunnels, because if he doesn't, I can put them in. You don't dig tunnels through bedrock, for one the Flintstones and the Rubbles will want to see your digging permit, for two, shovels will bounce of bedrock for years and years and years. Earth tunnels collapse, bedrock tunnels are about the safest place you can be once they're done. It would take probably several weeks to put them in. Drill (how many holes depends on how big you want the tunnel), blast (there's the fun part!), clean out, scale loose rock,(that's prying down rock that's going to fall because it cracked before it falls on its own) bolt back(bolts from 7 to 12 feet long, support the rock overhead). Repeat. Occasionally timber up for added security as you move along. Once your tunnels there, it's pretty much there forever. Someone going to go to the work to run another tunnel to breach that? You can pick 'em off while you're getting started. I'm just not sure how far it is to bedrock where WE lives, that and getting the materials are the only real considerations.

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## Beo

The pygmies can breech anything.

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## trax

> The pygmies can breech anything.


Ah yes. But the pygmies are loyal to Free Traxistan, God bless 'em.

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## Rick

I don't know much 'bout that there tunnelin' and such but if'n it were me I'd prob'ly go with a glue bolt and bearing plate using the traditional dead weight loading design. To determine the proper bolt length, I'd use Lb = (Is/13) (log10 H) ((100-CMRR)/100)1.5 where Is is the tunnel span. 

I actually carried a minor in mining. :Big Grin:

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## trax

> I don't know much 'bout that there tunnelin' and such but if'n it were me I'd prob'ly go with a glue bolt and bearing plate using the traditional dead weight loading design. To determine the proper bolt length, I'd use Lb = (Is/13) (log10 H) ((100-CMRR)/100)1.5 where Is is the tunnel span. 
> 
> I actually carried a minor in mining.


I'd just contact a mining supply company and get what I needed from them. I never did any of my mining in college, but us Canuckistanians do have a reputation for being the best in the world at it.

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## Rick

Never spent any time in Viet Nam or on Iwo Jima did ya?

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## Beo

Those were dirt tunnels lined with timber Rick, easily sabatoured, ya just had to have the guts to go down there.

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## trax

> Never spent any time in Viet Nam or on Iwo Jima did ya?


Nope, never did, but I know about the tunnels. Mine are better.

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## Beo

The tunnel system, built over 25 years starting in the 1940s, let the Viet Minh and, later, the Viet Cong, control a huge rural area.  It was an underground city with living areas, kitchens, storage, weapons factories, field hospitals, command centres.  In places, it was several stories deep and housed up to 10,000 people who virtually lived underground for years.... getting married, giving birth, going to school. They only came out at night to furtively tend their crops.

The ground here is hard clay, which made this whole thing possible.  But even so, the planning and construction was incredible.  People dug all this with hand tools, filling reed baskets and dumping the dirt into bomb craters.  They installed large vents so they could hear approaching helicopters, smaller vents for air and baffled vents to dissipate cooking smoke.  There were also hidden trap doors and gruesomely effective bamboo-stake booby traps.

Of course, the U.S. military knew about the tunnels.  The tunnels not only allowed guerrilla communication, they allowed surprise attacks, even within the perimeters of U.S. military bases.  The U.S. retaliated with bombs, eventually turning the region into what writers Tom Mangold and John Penycate called "the most bombed, shelled, gassed, defoliated and generally devastated area in the history of warfare." 
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One well placed satchel charge could collapse the thing.

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## Rick

Well, not that last sentence. The tunnels were never defeated by the French or Americans. Small sections were destroyed but very small in comparison to the overall network.

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## Beo

The satchel charges we used in Desert Storm were nothing more than a brick of C-4 in a satchel and pulled the cap and threw it in the tunnel, these were deep dug heavy tunnels and the bast was enough with the concussion to drop concrete walls and earthnen walls for at least a quarter mile, I don't know what the Vietnam soldier used, really don't but I think these would've worked as well there as in Desert Storm.
Of course we now have bunker busters too.

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## Beo

Or I could be wrong.

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## trax

There's the material being blasted. Timber is more difficult to blow up than rock is, the timber is more porous and absorbs the blast. Concrete can be easier to blow up than clay because it's brittle and the concussion is a direct hit whereas the clay absorbs the concussion. Sand just collapses because that's sand for ya. The harder rock is the better it breaks when you blast. A packed charge will have better effect than a charge that's just tossed in, other variables being equalled (ie type and amount of explosive) but of course in the situations that Beo described, you probably don't have a lot of time to be setting really nice charges. It's like when you watch one of those building demolitions and they make the building implode, the charges are set so that the blast goes down, and with enough force that it creates a huge enough vacuum that the structural integrity of the building can't withstand the vacuum and the building is literally sucked down behind the blast. I've always wanted to try that, just, you know, to see if I could get it right. Funny, no one's asking me to go ahead

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## Chris

> Bunkers completely useles, even as a bomb shelter cause ther goin to be droppin nuclear bombs on us. Also all laughfin and joking aside if you start stalkin to much the goverment does keep tabs on that sort of stuff.


If a nuke drops on your head you're dead. Only the gov has got bunkers that can take a nuke.

But a bunker can protect you from things like radioactive fallout.

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## wareagle69

here in the nickel mining capital of the world we have tons on old shafts 4000 to 6000 ft down we can withstand a nuke, as for repelling any attack i just tell nell they are going after trax and watch the desruction.

 how did this get from a bait attack a faux sherriff or a couple of thugs to people droping semtex into my bunker seriuosly.

  i have a bunker cuz for me it's fun bottom line it ain't about the end of the world or such things it's about being prepared. IF and i say if in a shtf scenario someone walks the hour and a half to my place they might be a little determined, so i fall back let them take the stuff i leave as a decoy and me and mine are safe, that is how i think if you don't like it then go pound salt, to call me crazy or wrong means you can't open your mind enough to see all the possibilities, i do not preach to people about anything here other than to be prepared, whatever that means to you... to me it means a bunker for safe storage, i hope i never have to use it  but

  this reminds me of when i joined the army oct 87 how long had it been since we had a conflict and don't count operation live fire in grenada where even the cooks got a cib because he heard gunfire, i took my training very seriously and was rideculed for that then how many conflicts since dec 89 have we been in? how many dead? every one said it wouldn't happen, but what if it does.  whats it to you if i prepare have i wasted any thing other thsn my time? how does this affect you? so all i can say is bugger off.

  well all i can say is bugger off and what?

   sing along if ya know the words
      always be prepared....

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## trax

Yep Yep, I was thinking your part of the PreCambrian shield. I could do ya some serious tunnels man, problem with old mine shafts is they flood.

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## wareagle69

ya thats whats great about being a plumber i can fix that

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## nell67

> here in the nickel mining capital of the world we have tons on old shafts 4000 to 6000 ft down we can withstand a nuke, as for repelling any attack i just tell nell they are going after trax and watch the desruction.
> 
> how did this get from a bait attack a faux sherriff or a couple of thugs to people droping semtex into my bunker seriuosly.
> 
> i have a bunker cuz for me it's fun bottom line it ain't about the end of the world or such things it's about being prepared. IF and i say if in a shtf scenario someone walks the hour and a half to my place they might be a little determined, so i fall back let them take the stuff i leave as a decoy and me and mine are safe, that is how i think if you don't like it then go pound salt, to call me crazy or wrong means you can't open your mind enough to see all the possibilities, i do not preach to people about anything here other than to be prepared, whatever that means to you... to me it means a bunker for safe storage, i hope i never have to use it but
> 
> this reminds me of when i joined the army oct 87 how long had it been since we had a conflict and don't count operation live fire in grenada where even the cooks got a cib because he heard gunfire, i took my training very seriously and was rideculed for that then how many conflicts since dec 89 have we been in? how many dead? every one said it wouldn't happen, but what if it does. whats it to you if i prepare have i wasted any thing other thsn my time? how does this affect you? so all i can say is bugger off.
> 
> well all i can say is bugger off and what?
> ...


Thanks WE,I must be one mean little badazz,eh? LMAO!!!! :Big Grin:

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## Tony uk

You pay the Twinkienator 100 twinkies per hour to watch over it, No one would dare try and go near it

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## trax

> You pay the Twinkienator 100 twinkies per hour to watch over it, No one would dare try and go near it


Tony, I think we just have to tell him that his Twinkie stash is being threatened and then unleash him  :Big Grin:

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## Rick

Cheap jokes. Real cheap. No Super Moderator respect shown around here, that's for sure.

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## trax

> Cheap jokes. Real cheap. No Super Moderator respect shown around here, that's for sure.


Well that's just silly, everyone respects Sarge  :Big Grin:

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## nell67

Rick,you knew the job was dangerous when you took, it,or you could have asked Sarge,he would have 'splained it to you :Big Grin:

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## Sam

What about a prefab tunnel system. Could you use concrete pipe for the path ways and conex containers for rooms? I mean some of you own back hoes so it seems possible. You could just sod over the cuts to hide them until the grass and brush grew back.
 I don't claim any training in building tunnels. So I am genuinely curious.

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## Rick

Sam - That's an interesting thought. Our county courthouse is well over 100 years old so the county decided to build a new one across the street. They also spent several million to redo the old courthouse and did exactly what you suggested. They installed a prefab concrete tunnel to connect the two underground. It's been a couple of years but it seems like the tunnel sections were around 12' wide by 10' high. Each section was about 20' or 25' in length. I didn't watch the construction so I don't know what they did to keep moisture from infiltrating the seams or if any additional supports were added for roof load, which would be a concern on square or rectangular concrete but it could certainly be done. 

You could use 8' road culverts and weld the ends together which would support well because of the round shape and be a whole lot cheaper.

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## crashdive123

One of the facilities at the last military base I was stationed on had to be built under ground.  It was done with the pre-fab sections.  The facility is fairly deep and this was in SE Georgia.  Ground water was a real problem - hit water after a few feet.  Solution - liquid nitrogen.  Lots and lots of liquid nitrogen (22 tankers if I remember right).

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## Rick

If you fill the facility with liquid nitrogen then...... :Big Grin:

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## Beo

> What about a prefab tunnel system. Could you use concrete pipe for the path ways and conex containers for rooms? I mean some of you own back hoes so it seems possible. You could just sod over the cuts to hide them until the grass and brush grew back.
> I don't claim any training in building tunnels. So I am genuinely curious.


I have a friend in Kentucky who did that, he dug out his land (about 150 ft. from the house) and sunk the conex/sea land containers in it at certain areas and then placed those big heavy round concrete sewer tunnels in a sort of highway/hallway connecting them all there about 8 feet high and 10 feet wide or close to that, and once done he covered the whole thing over with the dirt he had removed, their about 6 feet below the surface from the conex top and he even ran an air vent at each conex, he has food storage in one, goods and supplies in another, ammo and weapons in another, and living quarters in the last one, a generator to power the drop lights he has running through the whole thing. Not the deepest thing in the world but no one knows its there (except for you guys now) and it'll supply him for a good long time. He has railroad ties as steps leading down to it, don't ask me where he got the materials I have no clue. Once done he planted Ky. Bluegrass over the whole thing along with crab grass and ivy to climb out to the trees. There's a creek about a quarter mile away so he's thinking he's good if he needs to go undergound in an emergency. Once inside he sealed it W.E.T.'s
1050 Conseal Primer and then 1000 CONSEAL a concrete sealer to keep moisture out.
Maybe Sam ain't to far off.
Beo,

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## Rick

Sam - If you used metal corrugated steel pipe and finish the outside with shotcrete I think it would be both watertight and pretty darn tough. You can get the pipe in round and oblong design. I think they call the oblong pipe-arch or something like that. I would think you could have a removable walkway down the center of either one and place any electrical or other service piping below the walkway. It would be out of the way and yet serviceable.

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## Sam

> Sam - If you used metal corrugated steel pipe and finish the outside with shotcrete I think it would be both watertight and pretty darn tough. You can get the pipe in round and oblong design. I think they call the oblong pipe-arch or something like that. I would think you could have a removable walkway down the center of either one and place any electrical or other service piping below the walkway. It would be out of the way and yet serviceable. 
> 
> Here is a link to some shelters including the containers Beo referenced. 
> 
> http://www.earth-house.com/Disaster_...tructures.html


 I've seen these systems before, I just did not know how feasible they would be for joe public. The ones I have seen were government spots, and they can afford the cost/labor.

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## trax

It depends on the ground underneath you, most places you can dig  the soil that deep, but if you hit the rock I was talking about, you're going to be blasting anyway. But I think it's a great idea Sam, if a person has decided to go that way.

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## trax

Same concept, right? I've noticed a really big increase in the amount of business that bunker and safe room construction in the U.S. have been getting lately. Rampant paranoia or a precursor of the collapse of society as we know it? 

At least somebody's getting rich off  of it, whichever it is.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## trax

Business seems to be booming for the companies that install them.

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## wildWoman

> I dress up like a State Trooper and walk right up to the door. You assume that it is a State Trooper.


I'd tell you to go back to the amazing land of freedom that you came from  :Big Grin:  Our dogs are an additional deterrent, they lick any intruders to death unless we intervene.

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## rebel

> Hopeak - You offer some very good questions and it doesn't have to be your retreat. One of those or similar scenarios could certainly be used at your home today. If someone or a group is intent on doing you harm or taking your possessions and have a bit a creativity about them then those could become very real scenarios. 
> 
> 1. You have to be alert to the person and the context. For example, if the state trooper comes to my door there had better be a state police car in front of my house and he will still show his badge first. Same for military. I had better see vehicle and military ID. I raised three kids and didn't have the police here often but they did show up a time or two. I asked for a badge each time. 
> 
> 2. For the fire, naked lady, child scenario, one person stays inside and calls 911/sheriff/police while one armed person investigates. That's just personal protection. I hope that doesn't sound paranoid but my handgun is going to be on me when I go out the door. What if the naked lady scenario is real and the guy is out there? 
> 
> Some scenarios could just take you by surprise so it's important someone (or some) stay behind. I wish I could find the military reference for this but I read recently it takes 7 fighters to overcome 1 defender. That's pretty good odds for the home owner.


For planning purposes it used to be 3-to-1 for an island or hill and 17-to-1 for a structure.

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## Beo

Tactically assaulting a structure, bunker, safe room, ranch, compound or whatever is easier than defending. The problem with breeching these structures with a charge of explosives is destroying what your trying to take in this type of situation, and of course a long siege is out of the question. A recon of the area surrounding these types of structures is a must.
SITUATION: Your group identifies a bunker, compond, ranch as having supplies it needs.
REQUIRED ACTIONS:
1. Large part of group initiates contact:
a. A squad of 6 men in contact establishes a base of fire.
b. The group leader and two others such as a heavy weapons team move
forward to link up with the the squad in contact.
c. The group leader moves forward with the second heavy weapons team and assumes control of the base-of-fire element.
d. The base-of-fire element:
(1) Destroys or suppresses enemy crew-served weapons first.
(2) Obscures the enemy position with smoke (this may be smoke grenades or just setting things on fire).
(3) Sustains suppressive fires at the lowest possible level.
The group scout calls for and adjusts indirect fires as directed by the group leader. The group leader determines that he can maneuver by identifying
a. The holdout bunkers, other supporting positions, and any obstacles.
b. The size of the compound or bunker force engaging the group. (The number of enemy, automatic weapons, the presence of any vehicles, and the employment of indirect fires are indicators of resistance strength. This could have been done by the scout or scout team)
c. A vulnerable flank of at least one bunker.
d. A covered and concealed flanking route to the flank of the bunker.
3. The group leader determines which bunker is to be assaulted first and directs one squad (not in contact) to knock it out.
If necessary, a squad leader repositions a squad, fire team, or heavy weapons team to isolate the bunker as well as to continue suppressive fires.
4. The assaulting squad, with the group leader, move along the covered and concealed route and take action to knock out the bunker. The assaulting team approaches the bunker from its blind side and does not mask the fires of the base-of-fire element. This is done in succession to each bunker in the compound, eventually the compound will fall to the invaders.
That is how you (a military trained group) take a compound or bunker, now defending is different, how would you do it now knowing how they are coming in. Figure that out and you have your plan.

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## Sourdough

I have seen the "LIGHT", and gone over to the other side. No more Bunker'Bob for me. I have been enrolled into to the AR-15, Rape, Pilfer and plunder, "kill everyone" because life was not fair to me, anarchist crowd. And my team will be deploying to the land of milk and honey, Northern Idaho.

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## Rick

A documented story on attacking a bunker during WWII. A group of Germans were locked inside a bunker, laying down fire and refusing to surrender. Despite a number of attacks that included satchel charges and bazooka the worst done to the bunker was a small hole blown in the steel door. When all else had failed, a sergeant stuck his flare gun into the hole and fired it. The Germans streamed out almost immediately. They didn't mind the explosives but that new American weapon that bounced around inside the bunker was more than they had bargained for.

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## Beo

That is just how I was trained to assault a bunker, if I were taking a group to say an Idaho Spud farm that's how i'd do it. Don't cross over to the dark side Hopeak, we want and need you here.

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## Sourdough

> That is just how I was trained to assault a bunker, if I were taking a group to say an Idaho Spud farm that's how I'd do it. Don't cross over to the dark side Hopeak, we want and need you here.


Old Men are expendable. I would make a better decoy, than a fighting machine. If I can not hold a retreat by my self, why try? Even though I hate my rubberizes loincloth, in point of fact I would last longer than most, alone in the wilderness, this is even more true in the arctic wilderness.

The reason I started this thread is that I could not see a way to hold a retreat from attack after attack. And I still do not see a way.

All I have learned is that if no one can find the retreat, then it can not be attacked.

Which leads me back to the camouflaged (sign saying, "Medical Waste Disposal, Inc.") warehouse idea. or the large boat.

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## Rick

You're right. No fortification has ever withstood an attack by a determined opponent. From  Troy to the Marginot Line to the Western Wall. If folks want to get to you, then will.

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## Beo

Old Men are not expendable, they're a vast resource of knowledge. No one can hold a retreat by themselves, you can come to my place anytime. Personally I'd set you back about 200 or 300 yards with a high powered rifle and let you pick off the enemy or insurgents, since you say your too old. However a second in command or compound leader doesn't have to go into the combat, and a leader can direct from a distance his forces, so you are not expendable and can still lead the way.

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## Beo

And nowadays a retreat or compound can be defended, in a shtf situation it can be defendabe and survive, just leave no survivors of the opposing forces.

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## Rick

What makes today any different than the last 4000+ years? If a determined enemy wants to lay siege to a fortified compound they can do it. I've said before I think the ratio is 7 to 1 in favor of those inside the compound. If you have the numbers, you can still do it.

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## Beo

4000 years ago they didn't have a .300 winchester mag. a Ar-15, a mini14, or even a shotgun, or the knowledge we do today, different materials, and modern training which is alot better now than 200, 250, 500, 1000, or 4000 years ago. preparations and resources are way better now than 4000 years ago, and by your train of thought your no smarter than the people 4000 years ago, which may be true in your case :Big Grin:  but i think if you went back 4000 years ago with the knowledge you have now you'd be a king, or worshipped as a God, or excuted out of fear.

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## Beo

Also if you cannot successfully defend a stronghold then someone should tell the Vietnam Vets that who defended bases far away from the main posts and not only survived but held the base from well over superior numbered forces.
My hats off to them and heart feels for them, true warriors, soldiers, and Marine's all.

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## Tony uk

> You're right. No fortification has ever withstood an attack by a determined opponent. From Troy to the Marginot Line to the Western Wall. If folks want to get to you, then will.


The Marginot Line  was never attacked, the germans went around it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Rick

Beo - Read your own post #88 on attacking a strong hold. With all due respect to our Viet Nam vets, the enemy was either vastly outnumbered in terms of armament or simply gave up. I doubt any fortified retreat will have Huey's, F4s or Cobras to call in for support. 

Tony - Partially correct. That was how France was invaded (God bless the French. You have to feel sorry for someone that builds a huge freakin' fence then leaves the gate open). But the emplacements were attacked with success.

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## Beo

Rick that post can be countered, read Sun Tzu the Art of War :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

Guys, Guys, Guys........1.) if we guessed that most gangs would number what? A car full, or say 4 to 15.....? realistic what would the number of attackers most likely be? We would not expect 200  or even 50. I would expect a desperate family (3 to 12) or a near by city gang still less than 30.

Lets start with the highest probable attack number, what do you think that would be? And why?

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## Rick

I understand what you are wanting to do but I don't think it will work. Most folks think of trying to stay off some group of anarchists but what if the tables are reversed? What if some group from town gets tired of putting up with a small band harassing and stealing from them and decides to put an end to it. They could have 20 or 30. 

In any case, my point is simply that you can't rely on some compound to keep you safe no matter how much planning you put into it.

I am very familiar with Sun Tzu so you know his principles apply no matter which side of the wall you are on. They apply equally well to business, too.

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## Beo

*Occupation of a base or compound*. 
Priorities of Work may include, but are not limited to the following tasks:
Security (continuous).
 Prepare to utilize all passive and active measures to cover 100% of the
perimeter 100% of the time, regardless of the percentage of weapons
used to cover that 100% of the terrain.
 Readjust after recon/scout teams return, or based on current priority of work (such as weapons maintenance).
 Employ all elements, weapons, elements and personnel to meet
conditions of the terrain, enemy or situation.
 Assign sectors of fire to all personnel and weapons. Develop squad
sector sketches and group fire plan.
Confirm location of fighting positions for cover, concealment, and
observation and fields of fire. Squad Leaders supervise placement of aiming stakes and claymores.
 Only use one point of entry and exit, and count personnel in and out.
Everyone is challenged by a challenge word or phrase.
 Hasty fighting positions are prepared at least 18 inches deep (at the front),
and sloping gently from front to rear, with a grenade sump if possible.
(2) Withdrawal Plan. The group leader designates the signal for withdrawal, order of withdrawal, and the group rendezvous point and/or alternate patrol base.
(3) Communication (continuous). Commo must be maintained at all times within the unit. May be rotated between the patrols personal to allow accomplishment of continuous radio monitoring, radio maintenance, act as runners for PL, or conduct other priorities of work. These may be a base, backpack type or handhld.
(4) Mission preparation and planning. The leader uses the base to plan, issue
orders, rehearse, inspect, and prepare for future missions.
(5) Weapons and equipment maintenance. The leader ensures that weapon systems, commo equipment, and night vision devices (as well as other equipment) is maintained. These items are not broken down at the
same time for maintenance (NMT 25 % at one time), and weapons are not
disassembled at night. If one heavy weapon is down, then security for all
remaining systems is raised.
(6) Water Re-Supply. The squad leader organizes watering parties as necessary. The watering party carries canteens in an empty rucksack or duffel bag, and must have commo and a contingency plan prior to departure.
(7) Mess plan. At a minimum, security and weapons maintenance are performed prior to mess. No more than half of the group typically eats at one time, and men will typically eat 1 meal behind their fighting positions.
(a) Rest/sleep plan management. The patrol conducts rest as necessary to
prepare for future operations.
(b) Alert Plan and Stand-to. The leader states the alert posture and the stand-to time. He sets up the plan to ensure all positions are checked periodically, observation posts are relieved periodically and that at least one leader is always alert. A patrol typically conducts stand-to at a time specified by standing orders i.e., 30 minutes prior to and after missions.
(c) Re-supply. Distribute or cross-load ammunition, meals, equipment, etc.
(d) Sanitation and Personal Hygiene. The leader and medic ensure a slit
trench is prepared and marked, and that squads designate urine areas.
All group members will shave, brush teeth, wash face, hands, armpits, groin, and feet, and darken (brush shine) boots daily. The patrol will not leave trash
behind.
That is defense of a base, compound or ranch. It'll hold off 20 to 30 maybe even more, we used it in LRSD on 8 man scouts when out for days during Desert Shield/Storm, it worked on our forward bases too, enemy not withstanding. It worked against our own forces in training and you fight like you train. A group of 20 to 30 to 50 is what numbers we're talking about at most, and a group of fifteen to twenty is what I'm talking about defending or attacking (maybe less attacking) and it will work SO LONG AS EVERYONE IS ON THE SAME PAGE. Which is a big issue in a SHTF situation. But a well trained group can do it, no one can ever tell me they can't and even non military can be trained and drilled. Drilling makes it second nature and then your group become a team or squad.

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## Sourdough

The boat idea 3 miles up a long narrow bay in the middle of total nowhere is looking gooder and gooder, and gooder. Three .50 Cal. Barretts should work.

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## Rick

I do like the boat concept. I did a search on the internet a few days ago looking for a small barge design that might fit but didn't see anything that stood out. I would think a flat bottom barge would give you not only more room but also the ability to take on more shallow water such as a river or inlet.

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## Beo

I agree with you both on that, a boat such as a barge, or couple of pontoon boots would work well and be mobile. Rick hope i didn't sound upset or ranting or do the same to you.

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## Sourdough

Rick, keep an eye on Craig's list in Sea'cities like Seattle, Bellingham, Etc. There are a lot of steel "V" Hull only available in Whittier, Alaska. They have 87 foot "V" hulls for $19,000.-

My thought was just build a stick built 1,200 Sq. Ft. ranch style home on deck. And pay a Tugboat to move you. And don't bother with power or fuel. :Smile:

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## Beo

Hopeak that is actually a really good idea, 3 miles up a long narrow bay in the middle of total nowhere you could move around by push poles if needed and defending would be alot easier in the middle of a bay. A pontoon platform about 40x40 would work with a 20x20 cabin in the middle and small wall around the edge.

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## Sourdough

BEOWULF, You do know that the Alaska State Troopers, and Alaska Fish & Games Enforcement is all one department. Just saw another advertisement that they were begging for officers.

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## Beo

Going to check there in a few, I'm not sure how the 30 days of night and vice versa would work for me. Tell me about that.

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## Sourdough

You can also move a Barge using the anchors and a small runabout. You just move the anchor with the runabout, set the anchor, then wench the barge over.

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## Rick

Beo - Nope! No blood no foul for me. I wasn't upset in the least. I love nothing better than some give and take conversation. I manage to learn something every time I engage in one. 

Hopeak - I looked at some V bows as well. This isn't for me, mind you. I was just looking. Without a power plant then what would you do if you needed to move for some reason? (Storm, freak ice, someone happened upon you, medical emergency?) At least with a power plant you'd be able to move if you had to. Otherwise, you don't have to run it. Better safe than sorry. Also, would you be restricted to a V bow because of ocean waves or would you stay someplace like the inside passage? There are so many islands and inlets along there I doubt anyone would find you if they knew where to look.

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## Sourdough

Rick, You would have a 22' Boston Whaler and a 40 horse to go to town. Or you do what people who live in remote cabins on the ocean do, they call in there grocery order and the mail plane delivers food and supplies, but not fuel. If you get hurt you radio the AST or USCG.

My thought is it would be just like a remote cabin, without the land cost. There is so much food in southeast you would want for little.

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## Beo

*Hopeak!!!!*
So tell me about the day to night thing you guys got up there. Like the 30 days of night or the 6 months day and 6 months night thing and if its true and what problems does that cause.

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## Rick

Beo - The first night I got tripped up was in early August. I got up, took a shower and got dressed. My wife was still in bed, cracked an eye and said, "What are you doing?" I said, "I'm getting up. It's daylight." She said, "Yeah, it's also 3:00 in the morning." 

Other than that one time, I didn't have any trouble adjusting. Think of daylight savings time where it stays light until nearly 10:00 p.m. Dark curtains if you like to go to bed early or sleep late. Didn't spend the winter so I can't tell you about the dark side of the moon.

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## Sourdough

Here in Southcenteral Alaska the shortest day Dec.21'st it would be daylight at 9:10 AM and be dark at 3:40PM........the shortest night June 21'st it will get dark at 12:40 AM and get light at 3:40'ish AM

You learn to deal with it. Like put aluminum foil on the windows to block the light in the bedroom. After 38 years I do not even think about it. It is not a big deal. I think parts of Continental America are farther north than Southcenteral AK.

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## Beo

Cool thanks.

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## Sourdough

Beo, Right now it is light 7:AM to 7:PM

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## rebel

The concept now is to go around and cut off leaving a small congentent to keep the enemy down.  At some point you would need supplies and unless you were out of small arms effective range then, you would be a target.  One guy would keep you from repositioning or farming the barge.  Mobility and camouflage are key in my opinion. You may need to blend in with the gp.

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## Sourdough

If one was to look at a map, (Google or Wahoo) or a real map. Look at the coastline of Southeast Alaska. There are bays 30 miles deep. There is nothing for hundreds and hundreds of coastline miles. Other people would not be a problem, that is the idea of going there.

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## tim

just go by so Claymores a few RPGs a morter some frag and smoke grenades and some AK-47 and you are good to go. :Big Grin:

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## Sourdough

My Father would say to me, "Son, if you keep your mouth shut, know one will know how stupid you are". I had very smart father. He was poorly educated, and he knew it, that is what made him smart.

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## tim

yes,sir Father

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## Sourdough

You took that well, and I commend you, Sir. You have some fine country in South Carolina, Sir.

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## crashdive123

Hopeak:  I love the idea of barge living.  I think you are right about the deep bays and rugged coastline being ideal for concealment.  Not being familiar with the area, is there a danger of the isolated bays you're talking about freezing over, and would you have to reposition.  I don't know if installing a bubbler system would be practical in that environment to keep ice off the hull.

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## BraggSurvivor

Years ago I tried talking my wife into buying and converting an old 110' military sub chaser into a dive operation and live/work at sea. I even flew her to Vancouver to see one that was for sale and hoping that once she seen it and heard my point of veiw it would soften her up a bit. 

The words "NO" and "THATS THE END OF THE CONVERSATION" ended my first dream. No regrets though........... :Frown:   <as I'm thinking about diving off the coast of Roatan>)  :Frown:

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## crashdive123

> Years ago I tried talking my wife into buying and converting an old 110' military sub chaser


Now were talking sacrilege.

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## BraggSurvivor

> Now were talking sacrilege.



I would have did the old chaser a favor, the thing was a 53 year old piece of rusty crap destined for the scrap heap. They wanted $450000.00 and would have cost me another $1000000.00 to restore and convert. The two diesel nengines were the only component that looked somewhat cared for.

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## crashdive123

I was referring to Submarine Chaser.  That's just......just......well.....wrong.

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## MedicineWolf

Barge living sounds like a good idea, never thought of it. As for defending a bunker, compound, or whatever... If they really wanna get ya, their gonna get to ya, just depends on many you wanna take out with you first. Always go down fighting.

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