# General > General Guns & Ammo >  Ammo hoarders

## Wildthang

Well I remember when Obama got in office after the last presidential election, and many types of ammo became unavailable. People were convinced that ammo was going to be taken off the market. I remember talking to a guy in one of the large outdoor sporting stores, and he actually knew people that had rental storage units full of ammo, just because we had a new president. So from what I hear, it is already starting again.
Do people really think that a new president can actually just stop the sales of ammunition? Are a lot of gun owners just paranoid, or am I missing something here? I also heard that the SSA ordered 170,000 rounds of .357 Sig, now that is weird!

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## mwp

Yep! Ever heard of an executive order? This x has shown that he will side step congress. There is nothing he can do that would suprise me. Do NOT trust this x. If you want it get it.

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## Rick

Let's not get into politics. It's verbotin and for good reason.

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## mwp

Not a problem

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## kyratshooter

Ever heard of the Emancipation Proclaimation?  Yep, that was an executive order!

All politics aside, and not promoting or downgrading any politician or party, the executive order can be used to control something already under executive administration authority.  ATFE is part of the administrative branch.  

They set regulations (not laws) and intrepret those regulations, such as how to measure barrel length, whether a firearm with a 10 inch barrel a foreward grip and no shoulder stock is legal and how where, when and how much ammo can be transported.  Then they enforce those regulations as if they were laws.  

They sure can tell me how much Black Powder I can have and store, why not how much modern ammo I can store?    

It's not politics, its government operation.

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## hunter63

I still think it marketing, raise the price.....Get yours now, before Something happens....never know...might be a shortage.....You know.
Can the the next great primer shortage be far behind?

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## Sourdough

MARLIN FIREARMS CLOSING ITS DOORS 

Marlin Firearms is already closing its doors! They are doing it to us, America ! Even if you do not own a gun you need to know this. This needs to be spread to all gun owners and sportsman. We cannot rely on the media to inform us of these types of matters. Something You May Not Know That Is Happening ... Who is buying companies, manufacturing guns??? For the last several years a company called The "Freedom Group" has been buying up gun and ammunition manufacturers. Some of the companies are Bushmaster, Marlin, Remington, DPMS, Dakota Arms and H&R. Some people worry that this Freedom Group is going to control most of the firearms companies in the United States . If you control the manufacturers you can decide to stop selling to civilians. What a perfect way to control guns. Now if you do some digging you will see that The Freedom Group is owned by a company called Cerberus Capital Management. Guess who controls Cerberus??? GEORGE SOROS!!! He wants to restrict or ban all civilian guns. Please pass this on to all your freedom loving friends. This needs to come out. Why have we not heard about this in the "mainstream" media? I would think this would be BIG news. (Soros also owns Progressive Insurance). If you don't know who George Soros is, you need to do some Research.

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## Geek

A storage unit full of ammo?   :Thumbup:

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## grokh5499

> A storage unit full of ammo?


 Oh that sounds like a SHTF event waiting to happen.

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## randyt

everybody should have at least 15 to 20 rounds on hand.

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## crashdive123

> MARLIN FIREARMS CLOSING ITS DOORS 
> 
> Marlin Firearms is already closing its doors! They are doing it to us, America ! Even if you do not own a gun you need to know this. This needs to be spread to all gun owners and sportsman. We cannot rely on the media to inform us of these types of matters. Something You May Not Know That Is Happening ... Who is buying companies, manufacturing guns??? For the last several years a company called The "Freedom Group" has been buying up gun and ammunition manufacturers. Some of the companies are Bushmaster, Marlin, Remington, DPMS, Dakota Arms and H&R. Some people worry that this Freedom Group is going to control most of the firearms companies in the United States . If you control the manufacturers you can decide to stop selling to civilians. What a perfect way to control guns. Now if you do some digging you will see that The Freedom Group is owned by a company called Cerberus Capital Management. Guess who controls Cerberus??? GEORGE SOROS!!! He wants to restrict or ban all civilian guns. Please pass this on to all your freedom loving friends. This needs to come out. Why have we not heard about this in the "mainstream" media? I would think this would be BIG news. (Soros also owns Progressive Insurance). If you don't know who George Soros is, you need to do some Research.


While I haven't dug too deeply into it yet, there may be some misinformation out there on this.  According to Snopes, George Soros is not involved with Cerberus.  In the link provided there is a quote from the NRA.  http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/freedom.asp

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## edr730

Appears to be a false rumor. Never hurts to have a reasonable amount of ammo though.

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## hunter63

This rumor was actually in an E-mail I had recieved recently....But at the time, I considered the sourse, SIL,...... , know for every off the wall, piece of interweb trash that comes along......so discounted it at the time.

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## Cast-Iron

There's an old saying about a bird in the hand being worth two in the bush.  Do I think I'll need a storage unit full of ammo?   I doubt it, so I'm not attempting to aquire it in those kinds of quantities.  But with the printing presses working overtime to "fund" our federal deficit spending, anything you can buy now and put away will likely earn you a greater return than any CD or Municipal Bond, provided you have the reasonable expectation of using or needing it in your lifetime.  We will, at some point, experience significantly higher inflation numbers because of the recent expansions in the money supply.  The effects of Quantitative Easings I & II haven't been fully realized in our markets.  This has not fully taken place yet because of artificial market manipulation.  But sooner or later it will happen.  Now there is even some discussion of a QEIII?
Ammunition could prove a better investment than precious metals if there really is a concerted effort to limit its availability.  I'm not yet convinced, so I'm not making that bet.  I'll get what I think I can reasonably use and leave some for the next guy.

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## shaner

it  dont  eat anything or  will go bad if  stored right  so you might as well have it  around

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## hunter63

Precious metals,...... brass and lead.

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## Sourdough

> While I haven't dug too deeply into it yet, there may be some misinformation out there on this.  According to Snopes, George Soros is not involved with Cerberus.  In the link provided there is a quote from the NRA.  http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/freedom.asp


Thanks.....

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## Wildthang

Well I have all I need, and buy a little more from time to time, but I find it hard to beleive that ammo sales could just be stopped abrubtly. If the sales of ammo was stopped, just think of all the black market opportunities that would create. There are a lot of people that would make a living selling handloaded ammo! And I think the government knows what would happen, so I think it would take a long time for them to make that decision.

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## SpecWar

The sale of ammo might be a little hard to stop, but they could tax it to death!!! :Scared:

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## Wildthang

> The sale of ammo might be a little hard to stop, but they could tax it to death!!!


Now that would not surprise me!

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## Geek

In New Jersey we recently had a bill introduced to outlaw "cop killer" ammo.  It left the determination of what was "cop killer" ammo up to the State Attorney General, who is very anti-gun.  Expectation among gun owners in the state (both of them) was that this would effectively give one individual the ability to ban any ammo over time.  There was enough of a hue and cry that this idea got shelved, but the idea that the ammo you want might become unavailable is not completely ridiculous, at least in New Jersey.  I've also heard rumors that in some places there have been attempts to limit the number of rounds you can purchase to 500 rounds per month.

I think the debate about how much personal inventory is enough is going to be the topic of a thread from time to time as opinions differ.  To the extent that someone changes their mind as a result of that debate, the debate is constructive.

Your reason for stocking can be concern about SHTF scenarios, expectations for higher cost in the future, worries about future regulations, or something else entirely.  Stocking up ammo is no more ridiculous than stocking up food.  How much is enough is a personal decision, whether you are discussing ammo or food or anything else.

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## SARKY

If I can afford to purchase it and it is legal to own, why should anyone tell me how much is too much

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## crashdive123

> In New Jersey we recently had a bill introduced to outlaw "cop killer" ammo.  It left the determination of what was "cop killer" ammo up to the State Attorney General, who is very anti-gun.  Expectation among gun owners in the state (both of them) was that this would effectively give one individual the ability to ban any ammo over time.  There was enough of a hue and cry that this idea got shelved, but the idea that the ammo you want might become unavailable is not completely ridiculous, at least in New Jersey.  I've also heard rumors that in some places there have been attempts to limit the number of rounds you can purchase to 500 rounds per month.
> 
> I think the debate about how much personal inventory is enough is going to be the topic of a thread from time to time as opinions differ.  To the extent that someone changes their mind as a result of that debate, the debate is constructive.
> 
> Your reason for stocking can be concern about SHTF scenarios, expectations for higher cost in the future, worries about future regulations, or something else entirely.  Stocking up ammo is no more ridiculous than stocking up food.  How much is enough is a personal decision, whether you are discussing ammo or food or anything else.


Have to agree with you on this.  Good post.

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## canid

I have to agree with this. Ammo is money. It's utility. It's just plain not likely to depreciate under reasonable circumstances. With that said, I try to keep a small bit on hand. I do this in small amounts, and for reasons of utility, but larger amounts (safely and lawfully stored) are not unreasonable either, as a hard comodity hedge. In what 24 month period have either ammunition, or it's constituent metals fallen in value? the scrap value of those constituent metals is now as high as the retail price I've paid for half of the ammo I've ever bought.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I think the debate about how much personal inventory is enough is going to be the topic of a thread from time to time as opinions differ.  To the extent that someone changes their mind as a result of that debate, the debate is constructive.
> 
> Your reason for stocking can be concern about SHTF scenarios, expectations for higher cost in the future, worries about future regulations, or something else entirely.  Stocking up ammo is no more ridiculous than stocking up food.  How much is enough is a personal decision, whether you are discussing ammo or food or anything else.


 I agree with you, Geek. Heck, all it would take is an extended power outage and you won't be able to buy ammo. Think about it. When is the last time you bought anything that didn't get scanned and/or rung-up on an electronic device?

 You know the old saying. "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".

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## Old Professor

When I was a little tyke, at the end of WWII, my father and uncles frequently commented on ammo shortages during the war. They were of the opinion that a smart person who was a hunter or shooter should stock up on ammo for their firearms; the ammount depending of the type of firearm and how much they expected to hunt/shoot with that gun. Emphasis was on hunting purposes rather than target shooting. Of course back then there were not too many semi auto hunting guns, so a little ammo lasted a long time. With semi auto's like the Black Rifles and even my much loved Ruger 10/22's they can really burn through ammo. Back in the 60's I read a book on survival firearms that reccomended for the 22LR, 5 thousand as a reasonable ammount to keep on hand.  I did keep close to that ammount. Today, I would be inclined to double that ammount. I used to buy my shotgun shells by the case and always had several cases for each gauge (a thousands to fifteen hundred hunting loads. I wont even go into how many trap loads I went through!  As a hand loader, I always tried to have hundreds of loaded rounds and enough components to load each case three or four times.  Now as I get older and more infirm, I have given my SIL most of my guns and ammo, keeping only a few handguns with adequate supplies of ammo for practice and CCW.  I have enough hunting loads for my favorite bolt hunting rifle to last the rest of my hunting life.  I had a conversation with a friend who lives in the northern suburbs of Detroit last night and he was going out today to buy two Black Rifles and two 9mm semi autos and a LARGE ammount of ammo. This because of the rising crime rate around him. He plans to relocate to the UP of Michigan, (near me) within the year. He (we) believe that an economic collapse looms on the horizon, regardles of who wins the November election.

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## Geek

I hate to break it to you, but the economy collapsed four years ago nationally, and probably long before that in Detroit.

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## Old Professor

True but you ain't seen nothing yet!  I am thinking "Great Depression", food riots, roving mobs and such. I was Living in the suburbs of Detroit during the 67' riots and saw the break down of society and the rioters traveling out to the suburbs to engage in criminal behavior. Thats why I have guns  and ammo to protect myself and mine!

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## Geek

In many ways a normal day in Detroit is now worse than in the 60s riots, but we are now suffering from the "boiled frog" syndrome.  In the 60s what happened was abrupt and unusual.  Today you don't go out at night in Detroit on any night and the violence is not unusual.  The same is true in Chicago, Camden, NJ, and lots of other places.  Those places collapsed gradually.  Unemployment is at Depression era levels.  The roving mobs are called "gangs".

My point is simply that we are already experiencing "economic collapse" at a local level, but we seldom recognize it as such because it is spreading gradually, not abruptly.  If you fear economic collapse nationally, then you should look for it block by block.  It won't happen everywhere all at once.

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## Wildthang

Well dont get me wrong guys, I stock ammo too and in fairly large quantities, but not to the extreme of filling storage units, and those are the people I was talking about when I posted this thread. I absolutely agree that everybody should have a few thousand rounds of their most used calibers, and also some on hand to barter if necessary, nothin wrong with that!
I just think that some people go the point of being outrageous, whick makes it harder for the average guy to get ammo!

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## LowKey

What about all the current proposed legislation (due to the movie theater shooter) that would do away with internet sales and purchases of over 500 rounds in a month. I know of guys that blow through that in a week just shooting clays in 5-stand. That's only 20 matches. Some of the competition guys do that and more in a weekend.

Or the attempt to ban lead ammunition through the EPA (though they were successful in banning all lead fishing weights under an ounce.)

And wouldn't microstamping give a whole new meaning to "policing your brass."

They legislate the amount of ammo (by count) and powder (by pound) you can store here in MA. Over that amount requires a permit from the fire department and still has limits.

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## Geek

While a storage unit full of ammo is more than I can afford, I believe you express one of the legitimate fears that prompt people to buy ammo while it is available.  If food rationing was implemented, you'd be glad you had set aside some beforehand.

Oh yeah, I forgot, they're trying to tell you what you can eat or drink in New York now.  :-)  Maybe I should stock up on soft drinks and baby formula!

I apologize if that borders on political.  My point is just that someone who stocks up on what they think will be hard to get, or just more expensive, in the future, is either a good planner or a "hoarder" depending on whether you think what they are doing is reasonable.  Setting aside a storage locker full of product X may be a waste, or it may turn out to have been extremely prudent.  There is no way of telling ahead of time.

A storage unit full of ammo is not something I am contemplating, but I am not going to call someone who fills one a "hoarder".  For all I know, somewhere down the road he may look like a genious.

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## hunter63

Like any investment, you buy when it's a good deal, hoping to cash in when the value goes up, value meaning monetary, hunting supplies, or self protection.

I hope the storage unit guy(s0 realizes that putting all your eggs in one basket, so to speak is bad council (IMHO)....for practical, possibly legal, logistical reasons.

Deploy your assets, whatever they may be.

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## Wildthang

> Like any investment, you buy when it's a good deal, hoping to cash in when the value goes up, value meaning monetary, hunting supplies, or self protection.
> 
> I hope the storage unit guy(s0 realizes that putting all your eggs in one basket, so to speak is bad council (IMHO)....for practical, possibly legal, logistical reasons.
> 
> Deploy your assets, whatever they may be.


Well said Hunter, and that is exactly what I am doing. I think if the police ever got wind of a storage unit full of ammo during a SHTF event, they guy that owned it would probably lose his stash!

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## boo

Having four or five bricks of .22 is all that is needed.

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## crashdive123

> Having four or five bricks of .22 is all that is needed.


Maybe for you, but some of my weapons don't shoot .22 all that well.

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## hunter63

> Maybe for you, but some of my weapons don't shoot .22 all that well.


yeah, know what you mean....fall right thru that big hole ........

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## natertot

> yeah, know what you mean....fall right thru that big hole ........


.....and right to the bottom of that lake where the canoe tipped over!  :drunk:

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## hunter63

Bingo.........another argument for "Don't put all you eggs in one basket, deploy your assets."

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## wholsomback

Gee I wonder if anyone realizes that this is more corporate greed at work than anything else.

1.Create a shortage by not producing as much ammo as the year before.

2.Hold back ammo from suppliers.

3.Then put out false press about the polititions wanting all your guns and ammo creating a run on guns and ammo.

4.This puts a shortage on the marketplace and a look what the government has done to us.

5.Then raise the price and meter the stuff out.

6.Creating desire for more product that they don't produce.

7.Which they charge more money for so everyone tries to hoard more which creates an artificial shortage which increases corporate profits.

8.Don't think the players like Wal-mart and others don't want the price to go up so they increase profit margins.Standard answer from corporate is we ordered it but the manufacturer is out at the moment.

9.Well when you get ahold of the manufacturer you can buy all you want so who is scre$#%^ who.

10.CORPORATE GREED is the game and they are playing us all.No politics need be involved.I can get what I want you just have to go to the scource.

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## Geek

This is political.  Just vote how you wish.

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## Highhawk1948

Never have enough ammo.

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## kyratshooter

> Never have enough ammo.


Even if the floor starts sagging?

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## crashdive123

> Even if the floor starts sagging?


It is possible to not have enough house. :Innocent:

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## canid

I just want to know in which states you can fill a storage unit full of ammo.

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## crashdive123

> I just want to know in which states you can fill a storage unit full of ammo.


All of them.....if you have the money.

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## kyratshooter

> It is possible to not have enough house.



But I put double joists and two layers of plywood under that floor!  Actually the structural integrety of the house has improved since the canoe accident.


And One can have a storage unit filled with ammo in any state in the Union.  It is legal, but better left undiscussed.  Since the people that rent me my units do not ask what I am putting in them I do not offer that information.  As long as nothing stinks or leaks no one seems to care.   

We had an incident locally where one of the LGS owners had rented a unit and was storing inventory in it.  Someone turned him in as a terrorist and it was a big news item for all of 8 hours until the ATF told the locals to back off, nothing illigal was happening. (a rare incident in itself)  

Too many dogs or cats will get you in trouble too.  So will never taking out your trash or mowing you lawn.

It might not be anyones' business but we just do not push our limits.

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## Geek

This thread has been dead for awhile, but I thought it might be worth resurrecting given recent events.  Has anyone changed their opinions regarding how much ammo is enough, how to store it, or anything else we discussed here?

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## GreatUsername

I've given more thought to burying/bricking into walls/other hidey-holes. As far as quantity, each hidey-hole would hopefully have as much as a small group (me and my family +/- two people to account for friend) would need to be fully loaded. I'm very much a "nuts for the winter stored everywhere" person. I do it with food, matches, money, water, and other stuff, even just around my house. I have far too many fire-extinguishers, for example...

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## Wildthang

> This thread has been dead for awhile, but I thought it might be worth resurrecting given recent events.  Has anyone changed their opinions regarding how much ammo is enough, how to store it, or anything else we discussed here?


Well since this thread was posted, a lot has happened. With the threat of ammo taxation, we should have bought all we could afford months ago! It may not be too late if ammo comes back into supply before the taxes start! Then again, all states may not tax ammo so we need to get while the gettin is good!
Ammo prices only go up, which is something I never thought about when I posted this thread.

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## kyratshooter

Only thing that has changed is that the stupider the government gets the smarter a person with a few stockpiled items looks.

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## Geek

Since I reopened the thread, I should add that I am reevaluating how much I should inventory, by caliber.  The mania seems to be uneven by caliber and it has occurred in the absence of anything more than the threat of legislation.

As a result, I haven't over-spent on anything and I am still watching both the politics and the pricing moves.  All I've done so far is reconsider how much inventory I desire.  Once everything normalizes again, I'll gradually try to accumulate to my revised inventory levels.

The other thing I am considering is what other commodities can become subject to similar shortages.  Gasoline is pretty obvious, but I'm not sure what else may become unavailable for a long period due to a buying panic.  Does anyone have an opinion on that?

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## kyratshooter

> The other thing I am considering is what other commodities can become subject to similar shortages.  Gasoline is pretty obvious, but I'm not sure what else may become unavailable for a long period due to a buying panic.  Does anyone have an opinion on that?


That is a subject for another thread completely outside the guns and ammo section.  It is also a topic that has been covered extensively over the years.  That is why we are here.

My only other comment is that if you are "re-evaluating" your inventory then you do not have enough.  You also may have waited too long.  I fully expect the comming legislation to ban online ammo purchases and limit "hording" of stockpiles.  Once internet competition is eliminated ammo prices will stabilize at a much higher level than in the past.  

I still remember when the surplus ammo dried up in the 1970s after the GCA 1968.  It did not become available again until an "executive order" issued by a President in the late 1980s allowed it back in the country.

Our government really wants a British type law and that law limits ammo stockpiles to 250 rounds per person.

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## Psalm25

> Well I remember when Obama got in office after the last presidential election, and many types of ammo became unavailable. People were convinced that ammo was going to be taken off the market. I remember talking to a guy in one of the large outdoor sporting stores, and he actually knew people that had rental storage units full of ammo, just because we had a new president. So from what I hear, it is already starting again.
> Do people really think that a new president can actually just stop the sales of ammunition? Are a lot of gun owners just paranoid, or am I missing something here? I also heard that the SSA ordered 170,000 rounds of .357 Sig, now that is weird!


I am out of place here as I know almost nothing about US law and regulation but would it not make more sense to stalk up on reloads? I would assume it would be a lot cheaper and more affective in the long run would it not be? I can only speak by assumption.

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## GreatUsername

Cheaper monetarily, but more expensive in terms of time and energy devoted to making your own ammo. My time is worth a fair bit to me, and I'd rather just have a few dozen ammo-crates of the pre-made stuff than have to lug a reloading machine and various components with me if I want to bring ammo somewhere new. Still, if you have the time and are efficient, I can definitely see how it would be to one's advantage, depending on the situation. 

There is also the consideration of an all-out ban on new ammo. Cases and lead would be easy to keep/come by, you can make your own gunpowder in a pinch, but primers would be the hardest to deal with. I'd stock up on primers the most, if I were a reloader.

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## Geek

> That is a subject for another thread completely outside the guns and ammo section.  It is also a topic that has been covered extensively over the years.  That is why we are here.
> 
> My only other comment is that if you are "re-evaluating" your inventory then you do not have enough.  You also may have waited too long.  I fully expect the comming legislation to ban online ammo purchases and limit "hording" of stockpiles.  Once internet competition is eliminated ammo prices will stabilize at a much higher level than in the past.  
> 
> I still remember when the surplus ammo dried up in the 1970s after the GCA 1968.  It did not become available again until an "executive order" issued by a President in the late 1980s allowed it back in the country.
> 
> Our government really wants a British type law and that law limits ammo stockpiles to 250 rounds per person.


I treat each event that occurs as an opportunity to figure out how to prepare better.  I did that with Hurricane Sandy and I am doing it now.  I haven't fired a shot in the past month, so in that sense I had enough going into this event.  This is still an opportunity to make better plans.  I also think that while the pricing may be unpredictable for some time that within 6 months to a year it will at least be available at some price.

My new target amounts of inventory are going to be upward, though how much by caliber is going to be anywhere from zero to some large number that I am still working on.  As far as government limits, I don't think they'll be too successful, but I think I can deal with that.  Prices are already up, so that may slow me down but really isn't a factor in determining what I ought to have on hand.

Thanks for mentioning the surplus ammo background from the 70s, as it is not something I was familiar with and indicates that shortages today are not unique.

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## Geek

> I am out of place here as I know almost nothing about US law and regulation but would it not make more sense to stalk up on reloads? I would assume it would be a lot cheaper and more affective in the long run would it not be? I can only speak by assumption.


I am sure reloading will skyrocket in popularity if there are limits placed on ammo sales, but as of right now obtaining everything from guns to ammo to magazines to reloading supplies is more difficult than it was prior to the panic.  As far as the cost goes, I have always been one to first concern myself with what I need and then worry about the cost.  If the cost is higher I may just accumulate it slower, so while reloading may be an option for lowering cost or getting around volume limits, it still doesn't answer the question of how much to have on hand in the first place.

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## kyratshooter

I know from talking to some British friends that they are limited to purchase of 200 rounds at a time and can possess no more than 250 rounds at any time.  

There is no restriction on reloading componants (within the pounds powder capacity for storage) as long as they are not assembled.  Reloading centerfire and S-Shells has become very popular among shooters over there.

Such limitations are difficult to contemplate when one is used to buying ammo in 1,000 round cases and keeping reloads in 5 gal buckets.

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## crashdive123

I often go through more than 250 rounds at the range.  I suppose I might have a problem with those rules.

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## Batch

I buy ammo when it is a good deal and burn through it at the range.

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## Geek

> I often go through more than 250 rounds at the range.  I suppose I might have a problem with those rules.


I think anybody who shoots regularly would have a problem with those limits.

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## GreatUsername

Even if all you regularly shoot is bolt-actions, you still would go through that pretty quick. I personally use around 75 rounds per night on my very slowest nights. For reasons beyond having enough set aside for defense or long-term storage, a 250 round cap would be irritating in that you couldn't buy wholesale, and it would make it more expensive. Differing batches of ammo also have different accuracies, so you'd have to sight in all over again  :Frown:  

To tell you the truth, if I had a choice between a ban on semi-autos or an ammo capacity, I'd have to choose the semi-auto ban. I don't like the idea of running out of ammo. I do not like it Sam-I-Am.  :No:

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## Geek

> Even if all you regularly shoot is bolt-actions, you still would go through that pretty quick. I personally use around 75 rounds per night on my very slowest nights. For reasons beyond having enough set aside for defense or long-term storage, a 250 round cap would be irritating in that you couldn't buy wholesale, and it would make it more expensive. Differing batches of ammo also have different accuracies, so you'd have to sight in all over again  
> 
> To tell you the truth, if I had a choice between a ban on semi-autos or an ammo capacity, I'd have to choose the semi-auto ban. I don't like the idea of running out of ammo. I do not like it Sam-I-Am.


That's a choice I don't want to make.  Semi-autos are over 50% of the new firearm market and firearms aren't much good without ammo.

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## Moonviper

Well I asked the same question, but I was able to easily buy guns and ammo the last time he won. Alot of people figured that he would ban them and they would be gone , but no mad dash to buy it all before its gone. I went to a gunshow and I asked the vendors and all of them to a tee said they had never in all their years seen anything like this. Limits to how much you could buy or insane prices like $1000 for 1,000 rounds of .223, getting $3,200 for an $800 AR. One guy said he had sold guns and ammo for over 40 years and he had never seen anything like this at all. I hope your right.

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## cwi555

In the last 15 years, the price of Zinc on the LME/Comex markets has went up 100 percent, lead has went up 340%, copper has went up 433%. Those are the major components found in the cartridge, bullet, and to some extent the primer. That is based on the cash buyer price/LME. http://www.lme.com/non-ferrous/index.asp

The 20 year look ahead for those metals places it around 437% for Zinc, 131% for lead, and 2,356% on the copper. 
(based on projected world demand/use, known available deposits around the world, mining/refining technology projections, environmental laws, and most importantly, projections of technology advancements etc etc.)
There is a reason many governments (especially China) are trying to get away from using those elements in those items. 

Three more to watch are tin, gold and silver. Over the last 15 years tin has climbed 700%, silver has climbed 588% and gold has climbed 600%.

How many of you realized Tin has out performed nearly all other standard industrial and precious metals in the last 15 years (including platinum and gold)?

Projections for the next 20 years have tin up 1,321%, silver up 1,351%, and gold up 233%. 

Zinc and copper = brass
tin and copper = bronze
Tin-Silver-Copper = the only viable lead free solder that maintain wettability (ability to lay flat when molten), Mechanical properties, and metallurgical properties along with the required electrical properties. 

The bigger picture here is, regardless of the laws passed, copper (Major constituent in cartridge brass) is going to sky rocket with or without the ammunition market adding to the fray. If people were wise, they would be keeping all that 22 long rifle brass. (70 percent copper/ 30 percent zinc for the standard cartridge brass)

That of course assumes no world wars, but who actually believes that?

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## Geek

Which brings one back to the question of how much to accumulate when one can, by caliber.  My sense at the moment is I am fine for handguns, which is what I practice with the most, but the only advice I have heard before is 1,000 rounds per rifle, but 5,000 for .22.

As most of you know I am trying to prep for a group.  I thought I was in pretty good shape for a family of four, and working toward being prepared for a larger group.  Now I am thinking I need to increase the quantities, which would mean I need to accumulate much more just to take care of the family of four, and the larger group becomes a significantly larger challenge to prep for.

There is also the question of balance.  Before you even worry about balancing weapons and ammo against food and other needs, there is the question of balancing weapons vs. ammo.  For instance if I have a .22 and 5,000 rounds for it, my next purchase might have been another .22 rifle, followed by the ammo for it.  If I conclude I need 10,000 rounds of .22 per rifle, then my next purchase should be more .22 ammo and another rifle would wait until that was in place.

Now I realize all of this is a judgement call and there is no "right" answer, but I still think current events should cause one to reconsider where they currently stand, and what is the right mix of preps.  I agree with cwi about the likelihood of rising commodity costs, but I think it also extends to food and everything else you might want to buy, so I'm not sure I'm ready to say I need more ammo rather than food, or the other way around.

I think I have made one definite decision which is before buying a weapon, accumulate the ammo inventory for it, then buy the gun, rahter than buying the gun and then accumulating the ammo, which is what I would have done in the past.  Worst thing that can happen that way is I have a larger ammo inventory for the existing guns.

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## cwi555

All commodity prices are going up, that's a fact. Most people have no comprehension how much it can go up.

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## GreatUsername

Perhaps it's time to invest in gauss guns? I imagine that the cost of iron is going to grow substantially slower than the precious metals...

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## canid

Perhaps I shouldn't joke, but I'm now picturing lugging a 200lb battery and capacitor array up a tree-stand.

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## GreatUsername

You could actually do it much smaller nowadays. The darn thing would be hot from all the transformers, but you don't need as large of a battery or capacitor if you up the voltage. Of course, the government would then probably start restrictions on who can buy batteries, and how many...

Also, proof of concept: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=7LjnhhtHojM#!

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## canid

I once spent about a year trying to design and build a small compulsator ( compensated pulse alternator, a type of flywheel storage device) for a railgun model, though I just want a small benchtop working model for my shop as a toy.

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## Geek

I have a few new rules for myself once ammo becomes readily available again, based on this experience.  I am curious what the rest of you think of these new approaches to the problem.

1) Buy the ammo, and magazines, before acquiring the weapon.  If SHTF before I get the weapon I have more ammo for existing weapons and/or some for trade.  2) I am doubling the amount of 12ga for hunting.  Nothing about what has happened indicates more, or more frequent violence, but this is something I should do anyhow.  I'll still need to hunt.  3) I had previously tried to standardize on certain common calibers.  These were hit hardest by the shortages.  I am going to both double the target amount of inventory for those calibers AND try to acquire a few weapons in oddball calibers in case those are the only calibers that are available in the future.  4) Because of the space involved, I am going to require more caches or locations for storage.  5) Because ammo cans seemed to jump in price and became hard to find, I am going to pick up on extras when I find bargains.  6) Increase the inventory of magazines so that some can be stored at each of the alternate locations.

Can anyone add anything to this list to be better prepared?

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## Wildthang

I am just going to buy some more .223 and .22 ammo and call it quits when the supply comes back. That seems to be the first to go when everybody starts to panic, and I want to have enough and then some.

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## Geek

> I am just going to buy some more .223 and .22 ammo and call it quits when the supply comes back. That seems to be the first to go when everybody starts to panic, and I want to have enough and then some.


I've noticed 9mm seems to be a problem too.  I'm not sure if that is among your chosen calibers.

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## Wildthang

> I've noticed 9mm seems to be a problem too.  I'm not sure if that is among your chosen calibers.


I already have my limit on that, but yeah, it goes quick too along with .308 and all of the assult rifle calibers. I am predicting that the shelves will be full in a month or 2!

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## Geek

I suspect you're right in general, but it will vary by caliber and where you're looking.  Magazines may take a bit longer.

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## Wildthang

> I suspect you're right in general, but it will vary by caliber and where you're looking.  Magazines may take a bit longer.


I think hi capacity magazines may remain hard to get. I think it's the one thing that will get banned after all of the dust clears, just my opinion!

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## Geek

Let's hope Magpul can clear their 1 million unit backorder first.  :-)

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## Yves

> In New Jersey we recently had a bill introduced to outlaw "cop killer" ammo.  It left the determination of what was "cop killer" ammo up to the State Attorney General, who is very anti-gun.  Expectation among gun owners in the state (both of them) was that this would effectively give one individual the ability to ban any ammo over time.  There was enough of a hue and cry that this idea got shelved, but the idea that the ammo you want might become unavailable is not completely ridiculous, at least in New Jersey.  I've also heard rumors that in some places there have been attempts to limit the number of rounds you can purchase to 500 rounds per month.
> 
> I think the debate about how much personal inventory is enough is going to be the topic of a thread from time to time as opinions differ.  To the extent that someone changes their mind as a result of that debate, the debate is constructive.
> 
> Your reason for stocking can be concern about SHTF scenarios, expectations for higher cost in the future, worries about future regulations, or something else entirely.  Stocking up ammo is no more ridiculous than stocking up food.  How much is enough is a personal decision, whether you are discussing ammo or food or anything else.


The problem that I see here is that what's stopping me from taking my car across state lines and buying whatever I want?

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## Geek

The only thing stopping one is draconian penalties.  Your likelihood of getting caught is low, but do you want to do prison time and lose your 2A rights for life for a 30 round mag?  Most would rather send a few bucks to one of the groups that are trying to get NJ into the Supreme Court like IL or MD.

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## cwi555

> I already have my limit on that, but yeah, it goes quick too along with .308 and all of the assault rifle calibers. I am predicting that the shelves will be full in a month or 2!


While I hope your right about that prediction, I seriously doubt it. Shortages were already becoming sporadic when this last panic hit. If all else calmed down, there are still severe back orders from the various firearm manufacturers. Stag arms for instance is back ordered for two years out, Ruger was back ordered 1 million firearms in May and ceased taking orders then waiting until this years shot show, which btw, has them over 1.5 million back from what I've been told. Olympic arms has ceased taking orders for the next 6-8 months for a conservative estimate...

The list is long for back orders. That is why the ammunition was already heading into shortages 'before' the panic. 
Those people are chomping at the bit to get ammunition for firearms they won't even see for 6-8 months minimum. 

Then there are the new buyers. People who have ridden the fence all this time until it looked like it was really going to happen. They are paying upwards of 1.50 plus for 5.56 x855 and 1.25 per round for x193. 
Now even the 00 shotgun rounds are disappearing. Nope, there is no way it's going to be back to normal in 2 months.

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## Geek

Actually, I've had a couple orders filled.  They are not the most clogged calibers, but some stuff is filtering through.  I think magazines will take longer and the ammo is going to be highly variable by caliber.

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## Wildthang

> While I hope your right about that prediction, I seriously doubt it. Shortages were already becoming sporadic when this last panic hit. If all else calmed down, there are still severe back orders from the various firearm manufacturers. Stag arms for instance is back ordered for two years out, Ruger was back ordered 1 million firearms in May and ceased taking orders then waiting until this years shot show, which btw, has them over 1.5 million back from what I've been told. Olympic arms has ceased taking orders for the next 6-8 months for a conservative estimate...
> 
> The list is long for back orders. That is why the ammunition was already heading into shortages 'before' the panic. 
> Those people are chomping at the bit to get ammunition for firearms they won't even see for 6-8 months minimum. 
> 
> Then there are the new buyers. People who have ridden the fence all this time until it looked like it was really going to happen. They are paying upwards of 1.50 plus for 5.56 x855 and 1.25 per round for x193. 
> Now even the 00 shotgun rounds are disappearing. Nope, there is no way it's going to be back to normal in 2 months.


Well I guess we will just have to wait and see. I am glad that I have enough to hold me over a good amount of time, and really dont have to worry about it that much.
I was talking to a gun shop owner yesterday, and he said that when AR's and parts for them come back to the shelves, you will be able to buy the parts and build one for around $500 dollars because the market has been saturated with them due to the recent panic.
I am not certain if he has heard this from a reliable source, or if it just his personal theory, but it sort of makes sense.
Once all of the existing orders are filled, and since all of the gun shops stock has been bought out, the market could be saturated driving the cost down once the panic is over..............who knows! I am not claiming to know how it is going to go, and am saying this is a possibility!

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## Geek

What we are seeing here is a real life example of The Beer Game being played out with anything and everything gun related with varying changes in demand by product.  For those who have never heard of the beer game, it is a game where the players are at different points in a supply chain and each is trying to fulfill orders.  As customers, we don't have the fun of seeing the chaos our changing buying patterns are producing, but we are definitely sending a wave up the channel.  The other unknown to all of us is whether the change in demand is just a pulling of orders forward or whether the change in demand will be permanent.

BTW: We are only 4 weeks into the game and it can take 6 months or more before the actual change in demand becomes apparent up and down the chain.

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## cwi555

An ammunition shortage was forthcoming with or without the recent scare. Lets just use Ruger's numbers. 1.5 million firearms. Lets assume the new owners of those firearms want an average of 100 rounds per firearm. 150 million rounds just for those new firearms. 

The world produces ~14 billion rounds of small arms ammunition a year. 39 percent of that is produced in the USA (5.46 billion).
The majority of that goes to military stockpiles/supplies. 

The missing element here is the added new gun owners in America. 

In 2010 the NRA estimated there were 300 million firearms in America. If only fifty rounds were purchased for each of them on average, it would make 15 billion rounds. That's more than the entire worlds production in 2010. When demand exceeds production, shortages are going to happen. This latest scare put it behind considerably further than it already would have been.

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## Geek

Over tine production quantities could be increased, but that takes some planning and some sense the demand will not slack off.  The last thing you want to do is open a new factory and then see limits on ammo sales put in place that cause people to stop buying.

My sense is this situation is worst for .223/5.56, 7.62x39, and 9mm.  I suspect other calibers will find an equilibrium at a higher price level than before.  In other words the ammo will be available but the price will be higher.  For those 3 calibers more time will be needed and the price change may be more radical.
With .223/5.56 stripped lowers are also an issue.  The number of these sold over the past few years, particularly the past few weeks is huge.  In the past, someone bought aa lower, built it out, then acquired magazines and ammo for it.  Now my expectation would be that someone with a lower would buy ammo and magazines before acquiring the parts to build out the rest of the rifle.

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## Bearskin Grills

NY will now be tracking ammunition purchases.

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## Geek

I don't think that will slow down New Yorkers and it might make gun owners in other states want to stock up more or sooner, compounding the problem.

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## crashdive123

At the gun show I attended today there was some ammunition available, but the prices were very high.  It was moving though.  The big ammunition dealer that never misses a show (Georgia Arms) was not there.

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## 2dumb2kwit

I tried to go to a gun show, today. Cops were directing all the traffic, trying to get in. The convention center parking lots were full, so they were putting people in the coliseum parking lot. (This made people walk a quarter, to a half a mile.) Then the line for tickets snaked back and forth for total length of about 250 yards. (The show started at 9:00. This was just before 10:00) The really bad part, was that they had stopped selling tickets. They were at full capacity. They could only sell more tickets as people left.

 I guess the good news, is that I went to the show at Hampton, Va. It seems that at the Raleigh, N.C show, someone accidentally fired a 12 ga, when they unzipped the case for inspection.(You know....to make sure it isn't loaded.) The news said that no one was killed, but a couple of people were taken to the hospital.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/h...-show-18259364

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## crashdive123

Talking with one of the vendors - he said that at about 11:00 they made an announcement that anybody that exited through (whichever door they picked) would get a voucher for free entry tomorrow to try and make more room for those in line.  This is a big show (quarterly) with a few hundred vendors.  When I got there today at about 2:00 quite a few of them were sold out.  There were five guys sitting behind about six tables - they had 7 or 8 Eotech clones left.  I asked what they started with and was told about 200 rifles and two pallets of ammunition.  I looked at him and said ---- you didn't raise your prices very much did you?  He said no, but would if they could get more inventory for tomorrow.

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## Desert Rat!

Absolute madness, just imagine if this started happening to the food supply? all of a sudden prepping looks pretty smart .

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## Geek

Any goods that are subject to abrupt changes in demand are subject to the same dynamics.  If a large number of people decided to keep one more week's worth of food on hand vs. what they keep now, you'd clean out grocery stores and find it difficult to restock, just like we are seeing with guns.  Look at what happened with Twinkees.

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## Bearskin Grills

we're going to the one in our area next month.  its usually crowded.  i can't even imagine what this one is going to be like.

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## hunter63

I feel sad that shows have gone back to feeding frenzies, that happened a few years ago......Things were finally settling down again.

You know, where you could walk the tables at leisure, ask questions, dig in boxes and bins, wheel and deal with vendors, pick something up, play with it awhile, put it down, think about it....

The local show have a local vendors, that have some of the same stuff, for years....you get to know them, from stopping in their shops, but it always seemed they would save the new and good stuff for shows.
Then you would ask, "Hey I didn't see this last week when I stopped in"...They would say, "Well I didn't let you know about it because you would to try to talk me down, the not buy anything, you cheapo..." We would laugh and and move on.....

Now it seems (haven't been to any shows since November or so).....That wild eyed buyers prowl the aisles with wads of cash, that gotta buy, gotta buy look.....venders just stand back and take the cash, with a curt, "Nope thats the price, if you don't want it, the 100 guys behind you do....Move along".

Or so I have been told.

Time to lay low for a while, I guess.......

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## Stiffy

Say, I've seen a few websites that listed ammo as being "backorderable."  Have any of you tried that?  And if so, is it a pretty sure thing, or just a shot in the dark.

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## hunter63

I still have some .35 cal 200 gr round nose Sierra bullets ordered from Cabales a couple of years ago, on back order, get a quarterly notice ....so Hey go for it....

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## Geek

I have a few backorders in the queue.  I think it is hard to tell at this stage how long it will take to get them filled.  I've ordered calibers I will use so if it randomly gets filled at some point in the future when I no longer require it, I'll still use it up eventually.  I'd say there's no harm in placing a backorder as long as you're willing to pay for it if it shows up when the current shortage is long over.

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## hunter63

Watch pricing.....last time around, I had a bunch of primers @ about $25 bucks a 1000, on back order.....listed in the catalog at pricing up to $60 bucks a 1000.
When they came in I still got them for the original price....and as they piece-mealed, my order in, a little at a time, I was NOT charged a hazmat fee each time.

They didn't make any money on me that go around.

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## natertot

You guys are spot on with everything. I work a gun show every Sat and it is nuts. I do not reduce my prices at all because people will buy it. I'm selling 19 Chile .308 surplus for $18 a box of 20. I was the first person there with .308 in four weeks. Next week I will have 4K rounds of 9mm. It will be fun to see how long that lasts. 

The downside of it all is I don't know if I can replace what I sell. I constantly have the fear of not having merchandise to sell. Fortunately, reloading equipment demand is already starting to lighten up.

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## Geek

> You guys are spot on with everything. I work a gun show every Sat and it is nuts. I do not reduce my prices at all because people will buy it. I'm selling 19 Chile .308 surplus for $18 a box of 20. I was the first person there with .308 in four weeks. Next week I will have 4K rounds of 9mm. It will be fun to see how long that lasts. 
> 
> The downside of it all is I don't know if I can replace what I sell. I constantly have the fear of not having merchandise to sell. Fortunately, reloading equipment demand is already starting to lighten up.


The thread started with questions about how much ammo inventory is appropriate.  From your perspective, how much inventory does the typical reloader keep of primers, powder, etc.?

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## natertot

> The thread started with questions about how much ammo inventory is appropriate.  From your perspective, how much inventory does the typical reloader keep of primers, powder, etc.?


It varies per the person and their intentions. Some just want to have a plan B in the event they can't get any or want to start up to see if they like it as a hobby. These individual usually keep around enough supply for 1k-5k rounds. Major prep people and those who shoot extensively usually keep enough supply for 5k-15k rounds. On frequent occassion I have persons tell me of stock piles of supplies for 25k or more rds, although I would question the comments as being true.

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## Geek

> It varies per the person and their intentions. Some just want to have a plan B in the event they can't get any or want to start up to see if they like it as a hobby. These individual usually keep around enough supply for 1k-5k rounds. Major prep people and those who shoot extensively usually keep enough supply for 5k-15k rounds. On frequent occassion I have persons tell me of stock piles of supplies for 25k or more rds, although I would question the comments as being true.


Would these people also be keeping a substantial amount of finished ammo?  Someone who has a substantial supply of ammo and enough reloading supplies for another 25k rounds ought to be going into business right now.  :-)

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## natertot

> Would these people also be keeping a substantial amount of finished ammo?  Someone who has a substantial supply of ammo and enough reloading supplies for another 25k rounds ought to be going into business right now.  :-)


I'm sure they do as I have seen people buy cases (note the pluralization) of finished ammo at a time.

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## Geek

> I'm sure they do as I have seen people buy cases (note the pluralization) of finished ammo at a time.


I can understand that for either a competitive shooter or a prepper who has decided to add a new caliber to the mix.  Have you seen that with folks that are also reloaders?  I've gotten the idea that if you're prepping for a large number of people, and for a long period of time, a really large amount of ammo and the need for reloading would make sense.  I've not gotten into reloading yet, but I expect to at some point.  I was thinking of that before the current panic.  I don't shoot enough to really save money that way, but I feel it is an important skill and materials should be on my list of preps.

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## Wildthang

> Would these people also be keeping a substantial amount of finished ammo?  Someone who has a substantial supply of ammo and enough reloading supplies for another 25k rounds ought to be going into business right now.  :-)


Most hoarders do not sell their supply's, they just keep buying more. There is a guy that lives a mile over from me, and he has one whole wall in his garage stacked with boxes of ammo, floor to ceiling. I would hate to guess how many rounds he has, but when I ask him if he would sell a couple of thousand rounds of .223, he looked at me like I was crazy!
If he took all of that ammo to a gun show, he could make a fortune because he has had this ammo for at least 10 years, and probably gave 1/2 of todays prices when he bought it for.
This guy is the A typical ammo hoarder, and he is quite old so I'm going to be watching the newspapers, and when he goes to the big hunting ground in the sky, I am going to make an offer on that ammo!

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## crashdive123

> I can understand that for either a competitive shooter or a prepper who has decided to add a new caliber to the mix.  Have you seen that with folks that are also reloaders?  I've gotten the idea that if you're prepping for a large number of people, and for a long period of time, a really large amount of ammo and the need for reloading would make sense.  I've not gotten into reloading yet, but I expect to at some point.  I was thinking of that before the current panic.  I don't shoot enough to really save money that way, but I feel it is an important skill and materials should be on my list of preps.


IMO opinion it is out of fear.  Note that I did not say irrational fear.  One of the many proposals being tossed around in the "lets get whatever we can to further our gun ban cause" is background checks on ammunition.  Many people have stopped purchasing from dealers, on line stores, or where records are kept for fear of future confiscation.

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