# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Self Defense in the woods.

## klickitat

I was bopping around the net today looking up things pertaining my 311 I just picked up and I had an article catch my eye.

The author was talking about survival guns for outdoors men and made mention of self defense. I instantly thought of bear and such, but after reading another sentence I realized that he he meant actual self defense against criminals.

His premise was that now days there are a lot of pot grows and meth labs out in the woods these days. I got to thinking about this and realized that it is more likely that I would come across something like this then a wild animal that wants to do me harm.

So how does this effect things? The gun I carry, the way I move through the woods, what to do if you come across something like this, how about your reaction if confronted by an operator of a drug facility, what about booby traps....... so forth and so on.  

What do you guys think? Have any of you thought about this?  My first reaction is to avoid, not much after that.

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## Rick

I have indeed. Some of the areas I hike in are national wilderness and it's something you could easily walk upon if off trail. I guess the main thing is to always be alert to your surroundings. Not just for this but alert in general. That way you'll pick up on any threat regardless of what it is. 

Then I'm with you. Avoidance is my first line of defense. I'd do an about face and hike back the direction I came. I carry a Springfiled XD .45 in the woods for critters of all sizes. With an extra clip that gives me 27 rounds to fire backwards while I'm running.  :Gun Bandana:

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## jrock24

I read an article about a FS employee that stumbled onto a pot farm. The guys loaded his truck up with pounds of pot without asking any questions and before he drove off he told them who he was and arrested them. 

But if you do get some hostile farmers, duck and crawl. 

The movie "The Beach" is a great example of what to do in this situation.

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## hunter63

> I have indeed. Some of the areas I hike in are national wilderness and it's something you could easily walk upon if off trail. I guess the main thing is to always be alert to your surroundings. Not just for this but alert in general. That way you'll pick up on any threat regardless of what it is. 
> 
> Then I'm with you. Avoidance is my first line of defense. I'd do an about face and hike back the direction I came. I carry a Springfiled XD .45 in the woods for critters of all sizes. With an extra clip that gives me 27 rounds to fire backwards while I'm running.


I agree with this tactic,.........discretion is the better part of valor.
That's the best use of a 9mm as well.

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## Rick

I'm counting on a force field of fear to surround and protect me. Either that or the fertilizer I'll be leaving behind.

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## roar-k

I stumbled into a pot field up near my grandparent's about a year ago, and about the safe time I got over my bewilderment I heard people talking and saying they think they saw someone walking towards their camp.  Then and there I decided to hightail it out of there.

About a week or two after this I got a call from my pappaw and he told me they had a fuss over by the house because two helicopters swooped in destroyed the field and arrested several people.

I do not know if this is true or not, but the field is gone and it's just weed now...

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## Old GI

Avoid but be prepared to defend yourself.

Another "Once upon a time ..." story.  May have told this one before elsewhere.

When I was in the Uwharrie National Forest for special forces qualification training doing night land navigation training,  I experienced this very thing (sort of).  I was walikng my 30 KM or so one night and heard some noise ahead of me in the darkness.  I then saw some flickering dim lights.  A little closer. I heard voices and smelled the *STILL*!  I gave it a wide berth and just made my rendezvous on time.  I told the cadre about the still and he laughed.  He said that they knew about it and the bootleggers were waiting for me to stumble on them and give me a "tetch".  Blew that one, I guess; but what went though my mind - I was wearing sterile (no markings) fatigues and had a rifle slung on my back and no ammo (look like G-man?)

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## BENESSE

I've been thinking about this ever since I saw Deliverance. I'm super vigilant & use common sense at all times but $hit happens and the only thing I can hope for is that no guns are involved. (since I don't have one) I'm a good runner but I can't outrun a bullet.

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## cm79

There was a 3 acre pot feild ran by illegels busted this summer.I carry my .380 with my now.Its not a big gun, but it would be hard to walk with 8 of them stuck in you.

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## Rick

> I do not know if this is true or not, but the field is gone and it's just weed now...


It was just weed then, too, wasn't it?

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## crashdive123

It's not really something I factor into my hikes, but agree with the avoidance stand.  My roommate and I were four wheeling on the island of Kauai back in the 70's when we came across a large pot field.  At least we think it was - all we saw were two large Samoans with M-16's pointed our way.  We put the TLC in reverse and left as quickly as we could.

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## Rick

Yeah, that probably wouldn't have been a good time to flash them the Hawaiian Good Luck sign.

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## kyratshooter

The favored place for growing pot now is the national forest areas.  No land confisactaion or loss of hearth and home for getting busted.

Same goes for cooking meth.  That is being done mostly in the NF areas here.  Pull a camper into the woods. cook for a couple of days and disappear. 

The Census people lost a worker last year in Daniel Boone NF.  He was found hung, mutilated, FED carved into his cheast.  I guess he knocked on the wrong door.

When I was hiking the AT we had a nut job on the trail.  A couple of us ratted him out to NPS and they took him off the trail.  We found out latter he was wanted in Atlanta on a murder warrant.  I felt much the wiser for ignoring everyone's advice and bringing a compact pistol.

The woods has always been the place to go for bandits and riff-raff on the dodge.  Remember old Robbin Hood and his merry men, how about Jessie James.  Simon Kenton came to KY avoiding a murder warrant, Daniel Boone was dodging a warrant for debtors' Prison when he crossed the Cumberland Gap.  Of course they were dodging Indians 24/7.  Don't forget about their influnce on the American need for SD weapons from day one, 2nd ammendment and all. 

Nesmuck, the classic American woodsman and outdoor author, abandoned his family for the woods life.  Kepart's wife got sick of his long absences and divorced him, he turned to alcahol and finally wrapped a model T around a tree on a North Carolina mountain road.  

Kepart was instrumental in creating Smokey Mountain National Park, and he did not endear himself to the lumber interests and some of the local homesteaders of the mountains.  His camps were like armed gurillia fortresses.  He carried a S&W .38 spl in a shoulder holster and kept the most modern of SD weapons available for his day.  Browning A5 shotguns and Rem auto rifles.

Yep, there was about a ten minute space somewhere between 1492 and today when it was completely safe to go to the woods without a weapon.

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## Rick

> The Census people lost a worker last year in Daniel Boone NF.  He was  found hung, mutilated, FED carved into his cheast.  I guess he knocked  on the wrong door.


He committed suicide. 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...2_Kentuc340212

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## BENESSE

Suicide, shmuicde. 
There you go ruining a perfectly terrific story with little details...um...facts.
Honestly!

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

I don't think it is a "brilliant" idea to share all of my story...let me just say there was a rifled slug barrel 12 ga. shotgun in my sleepingbag that night and I didn't sleep that night. Yes, I can confirm there are felons in the swamps of SC.

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## Ole WV Coot

I'm always armed so most of the "bad guys" who do most of the cultivating in this area know me. I keep my mouth shut and they know it. Booby traps are popular, the Vietnam type, nothing fancy and easy to spot. One spot of humor, a friend and I were riding about 20 miles from the closest road or house and stopped only to hear a motor running. We headed in that direction for a couple of miles and found a guy in the middle of nowhere cultivating his patch with a roto tiller. How he got it there I have no idea, no trail or road and on govt property.

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## jc1234

I carry my HK USPc 45, but my first line of defense is my dog, followed by my knife.  Ive had training with my firearm, but Ive had much more training with knife fighting and no matter what I do, my knife will always feel like an extension of my arm with absolute control.  My gun just feels like a tool that I control well, so in close quarters my knife would be my first line of defense, plus its much more devastating and likely to stop someone quicker than a bullet.  All that said, I really worry about the 4 legged critters much more than the 2 legged.  Im hedging my bets on that.

However, surveys say that evil doers are much more scared of a dog than a person wielding a weapon, because of the fear of being unable to reason with an animal.  I never worry about my safety when I have my dog with me, but on the flip side, I grew up working in cities with lots of crime and worked in jobs that required me to be armed and deal with the people that you have mentioned.  When I moved out here, I left all of that behind and I really just tend to worry about 4 legged critters not the 2 legged.  There is much more of a chance Id run into a pissed off mama bear than a meth lab or pot farm and just like people who would be afraid of a dog that they cannot reason with, Im much more worried about the bear.

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## klickitat

> I carry my HK USPc 45, but my first line of defense is my dog, followed by my knife.  Ive had training with my firearm, but Ive had much more training with knife fighting and no matter what I do, my knife will always feel like an extension of my arm with absolute control.  My gun just feels like a tool that I control well, so in close quarters my knife would be my first line of defense, plus its much more devastating and likely to stop someone quicker than a bullet.  All that said, I really worry about the 4 legged critters much more than the 2 legged.  Im hedging my bets on that.
> 
> However, surveys say that evil doers are much more scared of a dog than a person wielding a weapon, because of the fear of being unable to reason with an animal.  I never worry about my safety when I have my dog with me, but on the flip side, I grew up working in cities with lots of crime and worked in jobs that required me to be armed and deal with the people that you have mentioned.  When I moved out here, I left all of that behind and I really just tend to worry about 4 legged critters not the 2 legged.  There is much more of a chance Id run into a pissed off mama bear than a meth lab or pot farm and just like people who would be afraid of a dog that they cannot reason with, Im much more worried about the bear.


Have you by chance ever worked for mall security? You seem to have some keen insight.

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## jc1234

> Have you by chance ever worked for mall security? You seem to have some keen insight.


LOL no, but thanks for the vote of confidence and your willingness to jump to conclusions.  I spent a few years running security for a night club in a fairly big city and dealing with the beauty of navigating through dancing on egg shells around organized crime and controlling narcotics inside the clubs enough to prove we did our due diligence should a legal issue come up.  The the local PD was about as useless as can be if the issue was inside the facility.  I also working armed security escorting the owners to and from the nightly deposit.  and for personal safety, as I wasnt exactly popular in certain circles. 

I had the privilege of getting some decent firearms training by some individuals much more knowledgeable than I was.  The knife fighting training was just worked in to many years of martial arts training that I did as a pretty serious hobby / sport from ages 12 to 22.  I used to shoot about 1000 rounds a month for a few years and a gun never felt even close to being as natural in my hands as a knife.  When I hear something that spooks me or get that hair standing up on the back of my neck feeling, I still always reach instinctively for my knife, not my gun.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

Awareness is your best defense in woods whether man or beast. Birds and squirrels give away positions. Tracks and broken vegetation are indicators, even game trails would tend to indicate a lack of human presence so things need to be looked at from all angles. The advantage will be to whoever knows the area and will probably being laying a ambush on trails or choke points, this is why I hike off trail. Firepower and martial arts will mean little when shot in the back of the head and you never see it coming. Don't expect a fair fight and your extra magazine capacity to save you. Remember the old hunters saying "walk a little, look a lot". Move as if you thought the area was under survielence.

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## jc1234

> Awareness is your best defense in woods whether man or beast. Birds and squirrels give away positions. Tracks and broken vegetation are indicators, even game trails would tend to indicate a lack of human presence so things need to be looked at from all angles. The advantage will be to whoever knows the area and will probably being laying a ambush on trails or choke points, this is why I hike off trail. Firepower and martial arts will mean little when shot in the back of the head and you never see it coming. Don't expect a fair fight and your extra magazine capacity to save you. Remember the old hunters saying "walk a little, look a lot".


Its funny you mention that.  I always get a kick out of the people that obviously watch to many movies as far as self defense goes.  I had the opportunity to train for a few years in CA under some very well respected and well ranked fighters. (I can name drop if anyone feels the need to call me a mall ninja again).  Anyway, I gave you the background to tell you this.  The most important lesson I ever learned in weapons classes was when one of my most diversely trained instructors named Dino came in in a white pair of sweats and handed each of us a tube of red lipstick.  We were all instructed to slash / stab at him with the tube (one at a time) for about 10 seconds.  Even though Dino was an exceptional fighter with some good weapons experience, every single person was able to get at least one good long lipstick mark on his sweats.

The point is, it doesnt matter how good you are, if someone else has a knife, you are going to get cut somewhere.

For my personal situation, this situation described in this thread is a little far fetched, but nonetheless, the power to run away is so under rated and knowledge of the land you are on is paramount.  Not only in this situation, but in a more likely situation that you are trying to save yourself from a 4 legged critter.  I dont think anything will benefit you as much as knowing the lay of the land well.

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## ravenscar

im sorry to admit this, but there is several male jane plants on our terr., generally i leave them be, as they cannot get you high, but im curious......what would be the penalty to neglecting to report such?

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## kyratshooter

> He committed suicide. 
> 
> http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...2_Kentuc340212


Would you believe that up here in North KY we get our TV news from Ohio.  

The left wing liberal Cinncinatti stations are still presenting this as an unsolved KY redneck hate crime.

I am starting to think the station owners have retreat property in KY and want to scare the less favorable eliments of urban Ohio away fron the KY woods.

Now I have to get my local news from Tusla!

At any rate, pot is still KY #1 cash crop and most of it is now being grown in someone elses great outdoors.  We also have more chemists working labs in the KY woods than they do at Proctor and Gamble.

I was truly delighted at the decision to allow CCW in Federal parks.  I am sure pot/meth operations are a big part of the reason that it was approved.

I have realized I was walking into a gow area several times.  No, the well used game trail was not the hint, we have some that look like highways here.  The giveaway was that I was suddenly sourrounded by pot plants!  One incident I was walking down a creek bed and looked up to find myself in a well irrigated pot farm.  On a side note I once walked into a deep woods car stripping operation.  I am sure to this day that I would have died that day if I had not been decked out like the Frito Bandito.  There was a motor still swinging from the hoist chain when I looked around.  I was able to back out without incident in every case, Thankfully.

MALE JANE plants are still canibus.  Criminal sanctions are the same as female plants.

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## jc1234

> im sorry to admit this, but there is several male jane plants on our terr., generally i leave them be, as they cannot get you high, but im curious......what would be the penalty to neglecting to report such?


Well there wouldnt have been one if you didnt just make record of it on the interweb.  Im not trying to taunt you...but that one probably would have been better for you if left unsaid.

If you feel the need, you could probably just mention it to the local authorities.  I doubt they will do anything, but at least you have a record of doing your due diligence as a concerned citizen.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> Its funny you mention that.  I always get a kick out of the people that obviously watch to many movies as far as self defense goes.  I had the opportunity to train for a few years in CA under some very well respected and well ranked fighters. (I can name drop if anyone feels the need to call me a mall ninja again).  Anyway, I gave you the background to tell you this.  The most important lesson I ever learned in weapons classes was when one of my most diversely trained instructors named Dino came in in a white pair of sweats and handed each of us a tube of red lipstick.  We were all instructed to slash / stab at him with the tube (one at a time) for about 10 seconds.  Even though Dino was an exceptional fighter with some good weapons experience, every single person was able to get at least one good long lipstick mark on his sweats.
> 
> The point is, it doesnt matter how good you are, if someone else has a knife, you are going to get cut somewhere.
> 
> For my personal situation, this situation described in this thread is a little far fetched, but nonetheless, the power to run away is so under rated and knowledge of the land you are on is paramount.  Not only in this situation, but in a more likely situation that you are trying to save yourself from a 4 legged critter.  I dont think anything will benefit you as much as knowing the lay of the land well.


I watch very little tv and like everything I say it comes from experience, lots of it. I've run people with knives down the road throwing rocks at them. I also competed in national Judo events and Boxed. In real life I have used martial arts but not as often as other things laying around. Serious confrontations are usually settled in an instant and the master of the moment is the victor. The guys that pulls his weapon first and drills target wins, period. A skill that should be developed for bear country and most effective self defence for anything.

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## klkak

I'm not much concerned with finding pot growers where I wonder here in Alaska. I have found places where folks were brewing meth. However I'm always armed. Most of the time with a S&W .44 mag and a Winchester .44 mag or a Rem 870 with Brenneke black magic slugs. If I ever do have to protect myself I don't want the target to have any doubt that it's been shot.

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## jc1234

> I watch very little tv and like everything I say it comes from experience, lots of it. I've run people with knives down the road throwing rocks at them. I also competed in national Judo events and Boxed. In real life I have used martial arts but not as often as other things laying around. Serious confrontations are usually settled in an instant and the master of the moment is the victor. The guys that pulls his weapon first and drills target wins, period. A skill that should be developed for bear country and most effective self defence for anything.


You bring up a question that Ive been mulling around in my head for a while.  As mentioned I have experience with training for the 2 legged, but not the 4 legged.  I remember learning that something like 95% of confrontations are won by the person that strikes first...but Id imagine thats for people only.  

I carry a pretty sizable knife that I use for everything, so its always on me when Im hiking or camping.  I have my 45 with me, but I try carry it concealed due to state law in the areas I hike.  I also opt for comfort over a setup that would allow me to draw more quickly.  So if I need something really quick, my knife still wins out in speed.  So here is the question: If a bear was determined to hurt me, would I have a fighting chance with a knife?  Im not talking about the bear you have up there...the grizzlies, I just mean black bear.  I figure that if a bear wasnt committed to doing me harm, I could possibly change its mind if I was able to give it a good cut...but if a bear was really committed to harming me, realistically, isnt a guy with a knife fairly screwed?

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## ravenscar

depends on the knife, WASP knifes may irritate it away

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## klkak

> You bring up a question that Ive been mulling around in my head for a while.  As mentioned I have experience with training for the 2 legged, but not the 4 legged.  I remember learning that something like 95% of confrontations are won by the person that strikes first...but Id imagine thats for people only.  
> 
> I carry a pretty sizable knife that I use for everything, so its always on me when Im hiking or camping.  I have my 45 with me, but I try carry it concealed due to state law in the areas I hike.  I also opt for comfort over a setup that would allow me to draw more quickly.  So if I need something really quick, my knife still wins out in speed.  So here is the question: If a bear was determined to hurt me, would I have a fighting chance with a knife?  Im not talking about the bear you have up there...the grizzlies, I just mean black bear.  I figure that if a bear wasnt committed to doing me harm, I could possibly change its mind if I was able to give it a good cut...but if a bear was really committed to harming me, realistically, isnt a guy with a knife fairly screwed?


A grizzly has five knives on both front feet and four in his mouth. He has practiced using them his whole life. He is bigger, stronger and faster then you. If you are attacked by a grizzly and you want to fight back you have to stop him with the first shot not stab! It's pretty much the same for a black bear.

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## jc1234

> A grizzly has five knives on both front feet and four in his mouth. He has practiced using them his whole life. He is bigger, stronger and faster then you. If you are attacked by a grizzly and you want to fight back you have to stop him with the first shot not stab! It's pretty much the same for a black bear.


Ok, so Id be pretty much screwed.  Where is the best place to make the first blow?  I doubt I could aim for the heart under that amount of stress and Ive heard their head might as well be armor plated...that doesnt leave a lot of options for a single blow used to disable does it?  The neck?

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## klkak

> Ok, so Id be pretty much screwed.  Where is the best place to make the first blow?  I doubt I could aim for the heart under that amount of stress and Ive heard their head might as well be armor plated...that doesnt leave a lot of options for a single blow used to disable does it?  The neck?


The head is only armor plated to light caliber weapons. IE, .22lr - 45acp. A 10mm with Corbon or Buffalo bore specialty ammo might penetrate the skull.

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## jc1234

> The head is only armor plated to light caliber weapons. IE, .22lr - 45acp. A 10mm with Corbon or Buffalo bore specialty ammo might penetrate the skull.


I meant with an edged weapon, like a knife.  Here is an example.  This summer we were hiking and a guy came running towards us white as a ghost and said he had rounded the corner and came face to face with a black bear.  In this scenario (like most with the bears around here) both he and the bear ran for cover in opposite directions.

Lets just pretend that the bear didnt run for cover and I didnt have time to draw and fire a weapon...or even if I do, I realize that my pistol is not enough to stop a bear before it can dispatch me with a few swipes and bites.  That leaves me with big sturdy knife.  If I can only strike once before the bear gets me what spot do I go for that would be easy to hit under stress and would cause it to stop?  Is there such a spot?  From what I hear running is futile and dropping to the ground is fairly useless.  Standing their ****ting myself is the only other option really.

This is a pretty unrealistic scenario I think, as my dog was bred to defend  predators like wolves and  bear and Id like to think that I would definitely know there was a bear coming before I was face to face with it because my dog would bark like crazy...but lets just pretend my dog lacks those defensive values...

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## klkak

> I meant with an edged weapon, like a knife.  Here is an example.  This summer we were hiking and a guy came running towards us white as a ghost and said he had rounded the corner and came face to face with a black bear.  In this scenario (like most with the bears around here) both he and the bear ran for cover in opposite directions.
> 
> Lets just pretend that the bear didnt run for cover and I didnt have time to draw and fire a weapon...or even if I do, I realize that my pistol is not enough to stop a bear before it can dispatch me with a few swipes and bites.  That leaves me with big sturdy knife.  If I can only strike once before the bear gets me what spot do I go for that would be easy to hit under stress and would cause it to stop?  Is there such a spot?  From what I hear running is futile and dropping to the ground is fairly useless.  Standing their ****ting myself is the only other option really.
> 
> This is a pretty unrealistic scenario I think, as my dog was bred to defend  predators like wolves and  bear and Id like to think that I would definitely know there was a bear coming before I was face to face with it because my dog would bark like crazy...but lets just pretend my dog lacks those defensive values...


I reckon the most vulnerable spot in that situation would be the throat.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

With a knife? Havn't tried it but I would go for the throat and hope to hit a big artery. I'd rather have bear spray than a knife. That might even be effective on people although a bears nose is about 200 tines more sensitive than a humans.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

See, having more bullets is the same. While I was typing more words Klkak beat me to the post.

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## crashdive123

I'm certainly no authrity on bears, but from what I have gleaned from some of the people of this forum that are, I would say that if you are truly concerned about an attack from bears.....

1.  Study and learn as much as you can about their behavior and habitat.
2.  Be acutely aware of your surroundigs.
3.  Carry bear spray.
4.  Carry sufficient fire power to stop a bear.

That is probably the order I would follow as well.

I don't think a knife should ever enter the discussion regarding bears unless it is how to properly field dress one.

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## crashdive123

Man typing with one hand sucks.  Ken might even be able to type faster than me now.

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## Old GI

Taking a knife to a gun fight???

I told the story before of a guy I went to High School with.  He waited in a tree stand over trail.  About an 8 pointer came by.  All he had was a knife.  He dropped down to attack it with his knife,  He got out of the hospital months later.  That was only a deer.

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## klkak

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
This is the skull of a 6ft 6in black bear. The lighted area in the first photo is the brain cavity. The darker area just above the right eye orbital is the so called "armor plated" area. Just in front of that is the sinus cavity. There is no solid bone between the sinus cavity and the brain cavity. A well placed or lucky shot to the nose would probably be fatal.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
In the second picture you can see through the brain stem opening into the brain cavity to where the sinus cavity opens into the brain cavity.

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## klickitat

> I meant with an edged weapon, like a knife.  Here is an example.  This summer we were hiking and a guy came running towards us white as a ghost and said he had rounded the corner and came face to face with a black bear.  In this scenario (like most with the bears around here) both he and the bear ran for cover in opposite directions.
> 
> Lets just pretend that the bear didnt run for cover and I didnt have time to draw and fire a weapon...or even if I do, I realize that my pistol is not enough to do it....


Maybe a katana, you know something with the ability to penetrate it's vital organs.

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## crashdive123

> Maybe a katana, you know something with the ability to penetrate it's vital organs.


Still stuck on your ninja theme are you? :Ninja:

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## klkak

> Still stuck on your ninja theme are you?


That is feak'n funny crashdivesan :Chinese:

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## klickitat

It was just way too easy. :Shuriken:

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## ravenscar

bears be too busy slippin on my sh*t as i gallop away

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## Rick

Hiker is walking down a trail when he confronts an obviously angry grizzly. 

"Oh, God. I am so screwed."

A voice booms from the Heavens. "You are NOT screwed. Pull out your knife and stab the beast!"

So the hiker does exactly that. He plunges the knife deep into the chest of the bear and steps back. The bear stands up on his hind legs, looks at the knife handle protruding from his chest then looks at the hiker.

The voice from the heavens says, "Okay. _Now_ you're screwed."

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## hunter63

> Hiker is walking down a trail when he confronts an obviously angry grizzly. 
> 
> "Oh, God. I am so screwed."
> 
> A voice booms from the Heavens. "You are NOT screwed. Pull out your knife and stab the beast!"
> 
> So the hiker does exactly that. He plunges the knife deep into the chest of the bear and steps back. The bear stands up on his hind legs, looks at the knife handle protruding from his chest then looks at the hiker.
> 
> The voice from the heavens says, "Okay. _Now_ you're screwed."


LOL, LOL, Now that is funny........
Like when "Grizz" ran the grizzly bear in to the cabin with Jeremiah Johnson, He stuck it with his knife, took off running and climbed a tree.

Bear finally died, Grizz says, "Good thinking pilgrim, leaving that knife in there for him to bleed out".
J.Johnson says" T'wernt time to pull it out".

(From the book)

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## SARKY

I never go into the woods unarmed. You talk about the pot farmers and yes as of late they have been expanding their numbers of farms hidden in the woods. But remember a couple of years back a mother and daughter and friend were abducted, raped, tortured and killed just outside of Yosemite National Park. 
Remember, there is only one oerson who is responsible for your protection and safety and only one person who can be there 24-7 to protect you and that is YOU!

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## jc1234

anyone carry bear spray?  I always mean to pick some of that up both for bears and the occasional ornery moose in ME and always forget.  Im assuming it works well as long as you arent in a headwind?

Funny side story, when I moved up here, we had a bear problem in the area because the bears have gotten so brazen that they walk up to peoples houses and destroy property to get to the bird feeders (which I Dont keep).  I had one 12 ga shotgun filled with slugs and another filled with those rubber non lethal shot shells.  I was explaining to mu neighbor how if I caught a bear destroying my property I would try to scare him off with the non lethal from the second story of the house.  he just looked at me and shook his head and told me that the only thing I would do is turn a curious bear into a pissed off bear.  

Oh well...I was trying to be nice.  So far we havent had an issue, but when I lived in ME we had a few issues with Moose.  They can be pretty nasty at times, but nothing involving physical harm, just destruction of property.

I have several boxes of non lethal 12 Ga ammo and no clue what Im going to do with it.

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> anyone carry bear spray?  I always mean to pick some of that up both for bears and the occasional ornery moose in ME and always forget.  Im assuming it works well as long as you arent in a headwind?
> 
> Funny side story, when I moved up here, we had a bear problem in the area because the bears have gotten so brazen that they walk up to peoples houses and destroy property to get to the bird feeders (which I Dont keep).  I had one 12 ga shotgun filled with slugs and another filled with those rubber non lethal shot shells.  I was explaining to mu neighbor how if I caught a bear destroying my property I would try to scare him off with the non lethal from the second story of the house.  he just looked at me and shook his head and told me that the only thing I would do is turn a curious bear into a pissed off bear.  
> 
> Oh well...I was trying to be nice.  So far we havent had an issue, but when I lived in ME we had a few issues with Moose.  They can be pretty nasty at times, but nothing involving physical harm, just destruction of property.
> 
> *I have several boxes of non lethal 12 Ga ammo and no clue what Im going to do with it*.


 Hmmm.....how far are you from the Mass./R.I. area??? LOL :Ninja:

----------


## jc1234

> With a knife? Havn't tried it but I would go for the throat and hope to hit a big artery. I'd rather have bear spray than a knife. That might even be effective on people although a bears nose is about 200 tines more sensitive than a humans.


I missed this post earlier.  Like I said, I always think "I should get some bear spray" and I always forget.  Then I approach a situation with the tools I have available...whats that saying..."if your only tool is a hammer, youll approach every problem as if it were a nail".  I need to get a small can of bear spray.  Of course, with my luck, Id only get attacked in a head wind...so, Id be blind and end up as an extra spicy appetizer.

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## lucznik

> …in close quarters my knife would be my first line of defense, plus its much more devastating and likely to stop someone quicker than a bullet.


I’m always amazed with how many people believe this kind of thing, despite the fact that the weight of historical fact is against them.  If this "knives are better than guns" principle was true, our armies, police agencies, etc. would still be arming people with swords, battle axes, pikes, spears, maces, etc.  But they don’t.  The closest we get is the issuing of bayonets to some of our military troops, but even those are used as absolute last lines of defense, when all the bullets have been fired.



> surveys say that evil doers are much more scared of a dog than a person wielding a weapon, because of the fear of being unable to reason with an animal.


You know, I've heard people quote such "surveys" before, but I've never actually seen any such survey.  Surely, if one existed, someone would have quoted/sourced it sometime?




> I used to shoot about 1000 rounds a month ...and a gun never felt even close to being as natural in my hands as a knife.





> My gun just feels like a tool


You must be shooting a Glock.




Oh, by the way, you can send any/all of those non-lethal rounds to me.  I'll dispose of them properly for you.

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## Batch

The quickest way to kill a mammal is to bleed them out. Shots to the head lack accurate and reliable shot stopping ability.

Take a look at the human vascular system. The heart is very muscular and may seal itself somewhat from a stab wound or small caliber wound. Just below the heart and leading down to the femoral artery is the quickest way to kill someone. 

Still you have to go through a lot of guts to get there. If you punch holes in the upper chest. The cardiovascular triangle. You have a higher hit likelihood.

Training for guns is going to put the bullets into the cardiopulmonary triangle. Maybe follow up shots to the head. (failure drills)

----------


## lucznik

> ...when I moved up here, we had a bear problem in the area because the bears have gotten so brazen that they walk up to peoples houses and destroy property to get to the bird feeders.  I had one 12 ga shotgun filled with slugs and another filled with those rubber non lethal shot shells.  I was explaining to mu neighbor how if I caught a bear destroying my property I would try to scare him off with the non lethal from the second story of the house.  he just looked at me and shook his head and told me that the only thing I would do is turn a curious bear into a pissed off bear.


Your neighbor is an idiot.

Non-lethal rounds have proven quite effective at teaching animals that have become unhealthily comfortable with human contact (usually due to stupid people feeding them, trying to pet them, attempting to get side-by-side pictures with them, etc.) to reassociate such contact with pain. It results in them avoiding such contacts, thus reestablishing the normal, instinctual fear that is their natural state.

----------


## lucznik

> The quickest way to kill a mammal is to bleed them out. Shots to the head lack accurate and reliable shot stopping ability.
> 
> Take a look at the human vascular system. The heart is very muscular and may seal itself somewhat from a stab wound or small caliber wound. Just below the heart and leading down to the femoral artery is the quickest way to kill someone. 
> 
> Still you have to go through a lot of guts to get there. If you punch holes in the upper chest. The cardiovascular triangle. You have a higher hit likelihood.
> 
> Training for guns is going to put the bullets into the cardiopulmonary triangle. Maybe follow up shots to the head. (failure drills)




I think what you are describing is perhaps a "most reliable way to quickly make lethal/stopping hits."  I'm pretty sure the *quickest* way to kill a mammal (or any animal for that matter) is a solid brain shot. The problem is that brain shots are hard to reliably make, especially when defending against an attack.

----------


## klkak

Wanna practice making brain shots on a charging bear?  Go to a batting cage, stand in front of the pitching machine and try to shoot the balls before they hit you.

Or you could have someone through the balls at you while you try to shoot them before they hit you.

----------


## JPGreco

I'm late to this party:

A knife fight with a bear huh? Well since you can't outrun a bear, can't climb a tree to get a way, and it is recommended to curl into a ball so the bear can bat you around, I would say draw the knife, give you best war cry, and and stare it down.  I mean, if your scenario is the bear wants to hurt you, then go out like a champ.  Stare it down and charge if it comes at you.  You might get lucky and the bear will look at you like you're retarded and leave you alone.  Needless to say, I've accepted my fate if I'm confronted by a bear that wants to hurt me.

That or grab the nearest lamp... lol

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## LowKey

They taught us in defensive carry 101 that the cardiac area with a proper sized slug will induce hydrostatic shock (and subsequent brain trauma) almost immediately. In humans.
An adrenaline-charged bear? Kinda thinking avoiding that situation would be better.

As for nastiness in the woods, I'd be concerned about running into the people into animal mutilation. More than once I've come across trussed animal remains in a fire pit. They weren't cooking it to eat it...

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## jc1234

> I’m always amazed with how many people believe this kind of thing, despite the fact that the weight of historical fact is against them.  If this "knives are better than guns" principle was true, our armies, police agencies, etc. would still be arming people with swords, battle axes, pikes, spears, maces, etc.  But they don’t.  The closest we get is the issuing of bayonets to some of our military troops, but even those are used as absolute last lines of defense, when all the bullets have been fired.
> 
> You know, I've heard people quote such "surveys" before, but I've never actually seen any such survey.  Surely, if one existed, someone would have quoted/sourced it sometime?
> 
> 
> You must be shooting a Glock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


as far as the survey, there was a study done with incarcerated criminals that we studied in a psych class in undergrad, so there has been studies done.  It makes sense to me.  Id be much more scared of a wiled animal than some thug with a gun.  As far as the destruction knife vs gun.  Ya I know about the temp vs perm wound cavity, static shock and all of that....its all the fun little facts that couch commandos like to reference.  I still believe that under stress one is more likely to inflict a devastating wound that will stop someone with a large knife than with a gun.  Its amazing how people can keep coming after being shot.  The bigger the object the more chance of hitting something important and causing bleed out more quickly internal or external.  Believe it or not, the most interesting class I took on stopping someone quickly was put on by the in conjunction of the LV PD during their 2 day CCW class they used to require before all the reciprocity agreements.  It was basically 2 days straight of crime scene reviews and how bullets impacted people in those situations.  it changed my mind about how temp wound cavity really impacted people.

I carry an HK uspc or usp, I hate glocks they feel like holding a block.  I love my HK, but if I had a choice of a knife or a gun in close quarters with someone or something...Id choose the knife every time.  How many times have you heard of someone (even with good training) missing x number of shots at point blank range, or shooting someone x number of times and they lived or even continued to fight.  Too each their own, but I'll take the knife every time...you can blast all of the typical forum couch commando facts and I'll still choose a knife...so save it.

----------


## jc1234

> They taught us in defensive carry 101 that the cardiac area with a proper sized slug will induce hydrostatic shock (and subsequent brain trauma) almost immediately. In humans.
> An adrenaline-charged bear? Kinda thinking avoiding that situation would be better.
> 
> As for nastiness in the woods, I'd be concerned about running into the people into animal mutilation. More than once I've come across trussed animal remains in a fire pit. They weren't cooking it to eat it...



No doubt...the problem I have is believing that I will hit that area under stress quickly with a gun.  Its not that a well placed bullet wont stop someone, its that I doubt my ability to place that bullet in that small spot under stress in a very short period of time.  A knife on the other hand, I dont doubt my abilities with.  If someone was really confident that they could make that shot in that situation I would say a gun is their best bet...but in my circumstance, with my ability, a knife is more likely to be my best tool.

Ive never run into the animal mutilation...thats horrible.  Id be devastated if I ran into that sight  :Frown:

----------


## lucznik

> They taught us in defensive carry 101 that the cardiac area with a proper sized slug will induce hydrostatic shock (and subsequent brain trauma) almost immediately. In humans.


Whoever "they" are, they clearly don't understand the mechanics of trauma. (That's the nice way to say that they're full of @#$%, but I could never say that 'cause I wouldn't want to be percieved as unkind... :hammer: )

----------


## jc1234

> Whoever "they" are, they clearly don't understand the mechanics of trauma. (That's the nice way to say that they're full of @#$%, but I could never say that 'cause I wouldn't want to be percieved as unkind...)


Ive also had several sources who do know their stuff state the same.  Within 30 seconds they will be incapacitated from the destruction of the heart.

----------


## BENESSE

I am much more afraid of the human animal than any other kind. _Their_ savagery goes beyond instinct--it can be pure evil which is harder to predict and it adds a whole 'nother layer of terror that can be quite debilitating when fighting for your life.
A gun would allow an advantage of distance whereas a knife is all about up close and personal where I'm more likely to loose in a hand-to hand combat. Besides, if I start with a firearm but have a knife and a taser to fall back on, then I'd feel a bit better about my chances to pull through.

Redundancy always puts me in a better state of mind, no matter what it's about--work, life or prep to survive.

----------


## klkak

> Ive also had several sources who do know their stuff state the same.  Within 30 seconds they will be incapacitated from the destruction of the heart.


If you hit the heart. I watched a man hit in the chest by five 9mm ball rounds run about 40 yards before falling down. Notice I said fall down not die. He survived.

Remember the heart is only the size of your fist. A lung shot is rarely an instantly fatal or incapacitating shot on human or animal. 

However a hit to the central nervous system is *rarely not* totally incapacitating.

What this means is, you have to practice to hit what you shoot at every single shot, every single time (heart or central nervous system) or you are not guaranteed to stop the aggressor whether human or animal.

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## skookumchetwoot

I hear the Pacific Northwest is a top place to grow, but isn't too cold and wet?

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## klkak

> I hear the Pacific Northwest is a top place to grow, but isn't too cold and wet?


Thats really nice to learn. Now how bout shoveling your way over to the intro page and planting your introduction. On your way there swing by and read the forum rules "PLEASE".

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## klickitat

The juice can is the ONLY shot placement that is instantaneous and permanent. Also the hardest place to hit.

If you want to drop someone in their tracks with a high percentage of success; shoot them in the pelvis.

In the end though, don't quit shooting till the threat is over with.

Oh and if a knife was so good then why do cops carry guns and dead criminals have knives?

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## lucznik

> They taught us in defensive carry 101 that the cardiac area with a proper sized slug will induce hydrostatic shock (and subsequent brain trauma) almost immediately





> Ive also had several sources who do know their stuff state the same.  Within 30 seconds they will be incapacitated from the destruction of the heart.


"Within 30 seconds" and "almost immediately" are two very, very different things.  30 seconds is a profoundly long time to be ravaged... be it by an animal or a criminal.

A shot to the heart is definitely fatal. No doubt about it. What's more, that death will certainly be (relatively) quick and *may* involve some so-called "hydrostatic shock" that could include some traumatic injury to the brain, but it's not a gaurantee of "immediate."  A shot to the chest is considered the most reliable target in hunting because the chest cavity is larger, has more and larger vital organs, and is (relatively speaking) more stationary than the head but, I've watched both deer and elk run for 50-100 and more yards before piling up from solid hits that absolutely destroyed their hearts. 

Last year I watched a guy shoot a huge bull moose with a .338-.378 Weatherby Magnum.  The first shot clipped the top of the heart; a 100% fatal shot.  That moose made it over 100 yards and required an additional 3 shots before it was down for the count.  Had that moose been given 30 seconds to stomp on the hunter from the moment of the first fatal shot, that hunter would have been nothing but a grease spot in the grass.

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## klkak

> The juice can is the ONLY shot placement that is instantaneous and permanent. Also the hardest place to hit.
> 
> If you want to drop someone in their tracks with a high percentage of success; shoot them in the pelvis.


And exactly how do you know this to be true?

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## klickitat

> And exactly how do you know this to be true?


Because I actually was law enforcement trained.

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## klickitat

wasn't trying to come off flippant. 

The pelvis is what holds the entire skeleton structure up, without it the body collapses. There are also two main arteries that pass through the pelvis and will most likely cause massive hemorrhaging.  

 I was taught that when in a stand off situation and you are forced to shoot, take out the pelvis and fire three more shots into the falling body.

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## Winter

Paraphrased.

"Be courteous be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone in the room"

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## ravenscar

> *Your neighbor is an idiot.*
> Non-lethal rounds have proven quite effective at teaching animals that have become unhealthily comfortable with human contact (usually due to stupid people feeding them, trying to pet them, attempting to get side-by-side pictures with them, etc.) *to reassociate such contact with pain.* It results in them avoiding such contacts, thus reestablishing the normal, instinctual fear that is their natural state.


ive come to asume all my neighbors are idiots,  both of em. ive also come to learn pain is not a good motivater to keep them away  :Stick Out Tongue:   :fishface:  Stay away from my weed wacker!!

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## your_comforting_company

I don't know how I missed this before, but we got stopped a while back by a very polite conservation officer. He pointed out the danger of going back there (we were headed deep-woods) since recently there had been some Drug Task Force busts back there on meth labs.
We were only scouting so no big firearms, but I always have my trusty sidearm and permit.
The nice officer checked our cooler which was completely empty, he said to make sure we didn't have alcohol, but I think he wanted to make sure we didn't have a mobile lab.

So the dangers of running into criminals in the woods is now just as likely as down that back alley in the dirty city. Like you guys say, always be prepared!

I think they should just legalize meth and let natural selection do it's thing. Mother Nature has a way of culling the weak (minded) and I think that anyone who would just throw their life (and their kids and family) away for something as sick and detrimental to the soul as crystal meth, deserves to be eat up with leprosy and malnutrition, while their organs slowly fail. Yes. A very cruel, suffering death.
I have no respect or appreciation for those folks.

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## Rick

The way I see it, no matter where you get hit if it's your time, it's your time. If not, then not even a doctor can't kill you.

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## kyratshooter

Where did the sudden influx of nonlethal knife toting mall ninjas come from?

The concept of "reach out and touch someone" does not mean get a longer knife!

However, I am always glad to hear arguments based on wild mythology from the LEO trained.  Espically in the areas where I have lived, where the primary qualification for being a LEO is that the Sheriff is named Uncle Buba and yoou had your felony record expunged.

If things ever do get rough in this world these are the people I will not have to compete with long term.  The wolves will kill and eat them like they were lap dogs. 

After fighting three wars in jungle and bush I will not argue over the merits of weapons, calibers or shot placement with people that have never shot a living creature, much less a myth cooking tweaker.

You people go ahead and take your katana's to the woods and remember to scream real loud as you charge that scrawney guy with the 12 gauge.  Perhaps you'll give him a good story to tell back at the trailer.

Bears in the woods.  The only bear contact I have ever had was on the AT abd every one expected it there.  If all the months I have spent camping for weeks on end I have never encountered a bear in the southeast/midwest.  My problem has always been 'coons and skunks.  They can ruin a good trip.

I have had problems with humans many times.  There are some really creepy people out there carrying Japaneese swords.

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## hunter63

During bayonet practice:
Instructor. "After sticking your opponent, and you happen to get your bayonet struck, fire 3 round to dislodged it"
Recruit, "Sir, If I have 3 rounds left, He won't be anywhere that close, Sir"!

OK, Carry on........

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> During bayonet practice:
> Instructor. "After sticking your opponent, and you happen to get your bayonet struck, fire 3 round to dislodged it"
> Recruit, "Sir, If I have 3 rounds left, He won't be anywhere that close, Sir"!
> 
> OK, Carry on........


 LOL!

Hey...if you have a Mosin 91/30 w/ bayonet, even if you run out of ammo, you can still stick them before they get really close!!! LOL

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## BENESSE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

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## Rick

> Hey...if you have a Mosin 91/30 w/ bayonet, even if you run out of ammo,  you can still stick them before they get really close!!!


Generally before they leave their hooch!

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## hunter63

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE


LOL, Good one, kinda what I was thinking.............

Mosin 91/30 w/ bayonet......English translation...."Spear that shoots"

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I have thought about a few ninja techniques myself. I have seen some crapling hooks and climbing claws for hands and feet that might have potential. Has any one used any of them.

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## klkak

> Because I actually was law enforcement trained.


Shooting someone in the "jewels" is something a jealous lover does.

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## klickitat

> Shooting someone in the "jewels" is something a jealous lover does.


If you shoot them in the jewels then you are aiming a little low. What you are aiming to do is break down the skeleton structure not geld them.  :Scared:

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## Rick

In the very off chance that we are on opposite sides of the fence in this battle let it be known that you simply have to say something derogatory to me. Don't waste the bullet. Jewels should remain bedazzled.

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## BENESSE

Just make sure you're not on any opposite sides of the fence in NJ. When it comes to the jewels, they like to get "creative" out there.

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## JPGreco

> I have thought about a few ninja techniques myself. I have seen some crapling hooks and climbing claws for hands and feet that might have potential. Has any one used any of them.


Bring it on Bears!!!!!
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## RichJ

I've read through this thread and find it a bit amusing at all the criticism of using a knife for self defense.  Yes, a gun is always preferable to a knife, but don't ever underestimate the lethality of a knife in the hands of someone determined to use it.  

If you are not familiar with the "21 foot rule" you should really ask any law enforcement officer and educate yourself. This rule is based on decades worth of case study of knife/gun confrontations. 

(I Googled this and it is a direct quote)  The "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.

The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.

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## klickitat

Start back at the beginning of the thread and put it into context. 

Now when it comes to a knife or a man holding a baseball bat, my money is on the man with the bat.

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## RichJ

Did I miss the context?  You were talking about two-legged attackers in the woods right?

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## klickitat

I was talking about coming across a drug lab or grow guarded by armed thugs, who are guarding their investment. A person strolling through the woods with his handy dandy Ronco wacker is deep sh*t.  You are going to get shot long before you even see anyone, let alone get close enough to cut someone. 

I don't know, maybe I am under estimating the power of the ninja.

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## RichJ

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that not even a drug-thug is going to commit a murder and have cops searching the same woods their crop is in unless they think it is necessary.  You're probably not going to get sniped if you are just cruising through the woods and not posing a threat to them or the stash.  Maybe not.

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## Rick

Rich - I've read of and heard of the 21 foot rule before. If I'm not mistaken, a knife can also pass through some ballistic vests. Another reason not to let the person too close. They can also throw a knife that distance. None of those situations are what I want to be in. 

Every weapon has its advantages and disadvantages. And each has to be coupled with the person's expertise with that particular weapon. I know of some on here that would do you bad with a simple walking stick because they were trained to use it. How one weapon will perform against another will directly depend upon the circumstances involved. I don't know but I would guess that many a gun toter, civilian and military, have been dispatched at the hands of a knife wielder. I'm also just as confident that the opposite is true. All things being equal, I don't want to be involved in any of them. Avoidance is my first line of defense.

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## EdD270

Back to the OP. 
In my experience pot growers and meth labs are quite reclusive and avoid contact with other people whenever they can. Growers also don't spend much actual time at the farm, but usually make visits two or three times a week. Grows and labs do all they can to avoid unwanted attention to themselves or the area they operate in. I know people who work as loggers and live in logging camps in grow country much of the year. When they move to a new cutting area the growers will watch them for a day or two, then alter their schedules to avoid conflict or detection. The loggers know they're there, but don't usually actually see them.
If you stay aware of your surroundings, and make an effort to leave quickly whenever you find yourself in or approaching a grow or lab, you should be fine. Most growers or tweakers, however screwed up in the head they may be, can tell the difference between an innocent hiker wandering by and a leo looking for them or a competitor trying to rip them off.
As for the knife/gun thing. A gun has the advantage of much longer range. If a bear attacks you and your only defense is a knife you're certainly going to get bit and clawed a lot. That is very painful and frightening, and you'll probably forget all about the knife. It's much better to have a gun and start taking action long before the bear reaches you.

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## LowKey

klikitat, I don't think your comment a while back was aimed at me regarding arguing over weapons. I certainly don't want to argue with you. It is good to get some feedback though on what someone may tell me, especially if it is in error. I've done some back checking on the term hydrostatic shock. Even though they sell bullets purported to increase the incidence of it, it isn't a paralyzing phenomenon. It is brain injury related to the trauma elsewhere in the body. It doesn't stop the aggressor in their tracks. It just makes it even less likely they will recover from the wound. Or rather, more likely for you to get slapped with a lawsuit if they do recover as a vegetable because of _your_ choice of ammo. Heaven forbid anyone notice they were the aggressor. Anyway, thanks to you and to Lucz.

As for knives, guns, meth labs, and bears, I'm with Rick. Avoidance is the best defense.

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## lucznik

> ...more likely for you to get slapped with a lawsuit if they do recover as a vegetable because of _your_ choice of ammo.


LowKey,

To the best of my knowledge, a justifiable shooting is determined by answering the question of whether or not you (the shooter) were in reasonable fear for your life.  If you were so justified, then you would be justified regardless of your weapon/ammo combination, be that .22 lr, or .44 Mag, or whatever.

I have never heard of a case where an actual justifiable shooting was made unjustifiable because of the choice of cartridge, or the specifics of the bullet style, etc.

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## BENESSE

Lucznik, I'm assuming that what you're saying is true as long as the self defense weapon used was legal.
For example, someone wouldn't be legally scott-free using an AK47 against an home intruder...right?

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## LowKey

And if you have the machine gun permit?

Might be considered excessive force.

Wonder where Ken is these days.

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## Batch

> Lucznik, I'm assuming that what you're saying is true as long as the self defense weapon used was legal.
> For example, someone wouldn't be legally scott-free using an AK47 against an home intruder...right?


An AK-47 is a legal weapon and would not normally have any repercussions if you use it in self defense. However for the same reason that you should not use hand loads for self defense, it is probably unwise to use guns that are viewed by the general public as more lethal for self defense purposes. 

What will you tell the jury if the question has to be addressed? I bought those Corbon +P+ or Federal Hydra-shok because that's what they sold in self defense rounds. As opposed to a bullet that you manufactured yourself specifically to make it more lethal.

The 21' rule is called a Tuller drill. It is the result of testing to determine when a knife wielding attacker poses a  viable threat to a person armed with a firearm. It originally was done with both persons back to back and while the knife perp ran away, the officer drew turned and fired. The perp could usually run 21' before being hit.

The reality of it is that a knife in the right hands is deadly. If kept concealed and you are not aware of the threat. You can pretty much guarantee a kill if the right parts of the body are targeted. If you are attacked in a close clinch situation a knife may even be the best choice of weapon. It never jams and never runs out of ammo. 

But, both weapons being holstered and a charging animal. 90% of the time give me a gun. 

By the way the feed back from simunition training and softair from law enforcement and others is available on this same topic. Results clearly point to not being where the knife or bullet is going and stopping the BG is secondary. LOL

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## lucznik

> An AK-47 is a legal weapon and would not normally have any repercussions if you use it in self defense. However for the same reason that you should not use hand loads for self defense


The first part I'm pretty sure is correct.  If you legally own the firearm and you are faced with a justifiable shooting, then it won't matter what that firearm is.

For the same reason, however, I don't think the second statement is correct.  I have never heard of any case where an otherwise justifiable shooting became unjustifiable because the shooter used handloads.  In fact, I have never heard of it even being an issue at court.

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## lucznik

> Lucznik, I'm assuming that what you're saying is true as long as the self defense weapon used was legal.
> For example, someone wouldn't be legally scott-free using an AK47 against an home intruder...right?


Let's say you break into my house late tonight with the intent to do me physical harm.  Unbeknownst to you I was planning to go shooting tomorrow morning with some friends and have just legally purchased my first Tacticool firearm, a semi-auto AK-47 clone.  I am excited and so; I'm up later than usual sitting in my den getting prepared for tomorrow and I have just finished loading the last of my five 30-round magazines when I hear the sound of glass breaking as you are entering the premises from the kitchen window. I insert the magazine and chamber a round.

You are stealthily making your way through the dark hallways confident that I am asleep and will never know what hit me.  You see the light on in the den and, after a tiny moment of confusion as you expected me to be in the bedroom, you make your way that direction. I have posited myself behind the desk, weapon at the ready and have called 911 - emergency response is on the way, but will take almost 5 minutes to arrive. 

You reach the door to the den and, peeking inside, you see me sitting at the desk, 21 feet away.  Now, you are not just an unlucky, stupid criminal; no, you are a Mall Ninja turned to the Dark Side of the force.  :Donatello:  So, raising your katana above your head - you attack!  Whereupon I promptly put two in your chest and you die with only enough time to screw your ugly mug into a look of utter surprise and horror that your nefarious plan was so easily thwarted. 

Now, when the Police arrive, how exactly are they going to turn this otherwise-totally-justified shooting into a crime, simply based on the type of gun I used?

For that matter, insert into the storyline any legally-owned firearm you choose; 44 Mag, 9mm, .45 ACP, .357 Mag with heavy, _handloaded_ hunting rounds, .223, .243, 12 Gauge, 338-378 Weatherby Magnum, whatever.  There's simply no difference.  If I am legal to shoot you with one of them, then I'm legal to shoot you with any of them.



Now, one issue you *could* run into with larger, centerfire rifle cartridges used in self-defense situations is the possibility of over-penetration where an innocent bystander gets hurt/killed.  But that's a different issue alltogether and, in the situation I presented, the remote possibility of that happening would not stop me from preventing your bifurcating my cranium.

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## lucznik

> Bring it on Bears!!!!!
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.


Wow, that's really kind of you to bring toothpicks to the meal so the bears will have an easier time getting some of your gristle out of their teeth.

Normally, they have to whittle their own from tree limbs they pull down.

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## Camp10

> An AK-47 is a legal weapon and would not normally have any repercussions if you use it in self defense. However for the same reason that you should not use hand loads for self defense, it is probably unwise to use guns that are viewed by the general public as more lethal for self defense purposes.


I brought this up in a hunting thread and got crapped on by everyone but I still will agree.  Remember, justified or not the criminal case is only half your legal trouble if you end up involved in a shooting.  There will be a civil case as soon as you are cleared of your legal charges.  They dont have to prove to the same level in that case.  Reasonable doubt doesnt matter and if the lawyer can "prove" to the jury that you owned a gun better suited for the task, you are probably going to loose everything you have.

The other thing to remember is that this country has completely lost its common sence and replaced it with political correctness.  Some politician someplace would take the cause of the criminal (only they would be a "victim" by that point) and fight hard to get rid of our rights to even own guns like that.

Of course, if that AK was the gun I had at the time of an attack, I wouldnt spend much time looking for a more PC one to use but I agree with Batch that it wouldnt be a good choice if you had the time to make a choice.

Okay, let me have it!!! :dodge:

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## ravenscar

> Wow, that's really kind of you to bring toothpicks to the meal so the bears will have an easier time getting some of your gristle out of their teeth.
> 
> Normally, they have to whittle their own from tree limbs they pull down.


lol, i wonder what the bear would be thinking if a guy came at em with longer claws than it?

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## LowKey

The fact that you killed a sword wielding ninja with a full automatic firearm could put you into the 'excessive force' category. Poor ninja didn't stand a chance. Shoulda used the bayonet.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I was just commenting on the same thing Camp10 brings up. There is no common sense left in the legal system in this country. The escalation in civil suits as a means of 'easy money' is just plain outrageous. Some people do not take ownership of responsibility in situations, look around for someone to blame, then sue them. It wasn't McDonalds that spilled hot coffee while driving in a car. It was the idiot in the car. Yet now I get to read "Caution Contents Hot" on all my coffee cups from everywhere just in case someone else gets the same idea. Hell, I might even spill my next hot coffee on myself and sue because the warning wasn't written in Egyptian hieroglyphics.  :Smile:

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## Rick

Fortunately Camp, Indiana isn't that way. You obviously have to be within the letter of the law but if you are defending yourself with a handgun in the woods and you are licensed to carry that handgun then you don't have much to fear in terms of criminal prosecution. Most of our LEO and lawmakers would all say you did the right thing. That doesn't stop the civil suits, obviously, but our peers and magistrates are pretty sensible around here. I'd bet there are other states that are similar.

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## Camp10

> Fortunately Camp, Indiana isn't that way. You obviously have to be within the letter of the law but if you are defending yourself with a handgun in the woods and you are licensed to carry that handgun then you don't have much to fear in terms of criminal prosecution. Most of our LEO and lawmakers would all say you did the right thing. That doesn't stop the civil suits, obviously, but our peers and magistrates are pretty sensible around here. I'd bet there are other states that are similar.


If indiana is in this country, it is that way.  Your gun laws are far more strict than Maine and we are a blue state!  I doubt very much that the responding officer in IN has the authority to decide that you did nothing wrong..there will be an investigation just like Maine.  You would be cleared here in Maine if it was self defence as well but that isnt the end of your problems, there is the civil suit that will follow.  

You have lots of faith in your peers in IN!  I'll bet that the plaintiff's lawyers can come up with a few people to sit on that jury that have less than a crystal clear view of the second amendment and they might be able to find some that have a less than positive view of "assault" guns.  Remember, there doesnt have to be the same level of reasonable doubt in a civil case.  

More than likely, you are screwed in the civil case no matter what you used to defend yourself but it's easier for the jury to understand which person is the "victim"  if it doesnt look like you've been waiting your whole life for someone to break in.

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## kyratshooter

You are way too worried about as civil case.  such worries cause the split second hesitation that gets people killed.

Would you rather be sued or dead?

Chances are usually very good that if some A-hole attacks you for no apparent reason it is not his first brush with stupidity.  It is difficult for the family of any criminal with a record to convince a rural jury they need money in compensation for his being a career s#!^ bag.

You are not dealing with town folk in this situation since it is specifically "defense in the woods".  I live in the woods and we have a saying about some of the folk that live here.

"Their killing is overdue."

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## NightShade

Civil case =  The reason there's no such thing as "shoot to wound".. or "just wing him"

Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

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## BENESSE

> Civil case =  The reason there's no such thing as "shoot to wound".. or "just wing him"
> 
> *Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6*.


If only it were that simple!

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## NightShade

> If only it were that simple!


It is most certainly more complicated than that... but really that is what it boils down to.

If somebody breaks into my house late at night, I really don't have any way to know if they intend me and my family harm..or just wanna steal my TV to support their drug habit.  

I take my responsibility to protect my wife and kids very seriously, moreso than protecting my own safety ( by far).. I am not a violent person at all, and believe in avoiding and diffusing situations.... Hopefully , it never comes to it, but if I had to, I would face off any threat to my family with as much overwhelming force as I could muster!

And face the consequences after the fact with a clear conscience.

If I have to do 10 years in prison in order to protect my family.... than so be it. of course, I'd rather not!!!!!!

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## NightShade

As for the original question.... a drug lab in the woods.... AVOIDANCE is the surest option!  I've come across small pot growing operations a few times... same thing everytime, soon as I realize what I've stumbled upon , I get out of there asap!!!

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## Batch

> You are way too worried about as civil case. such worries cause the split second hesitation that gets people killed.
> 
> *Would you rather be sued or dead?*


A lack of forethought in the matter can have great repercussions. Having gone through some case law and legal advise you will have learned from the past and have a plan for what happens after the shooting.

If thought out properly than I would answer neither to your question.







> Civil case =  The reason there's no such thing as "shoot to wound".. or "just wing him"
> 
> Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.


The family could sue you.

My answer to the question of why I didn't just wound he or she is because it would not likely stop the threat. Trained law enforcement officers routinely miss torso shots. I am a mere citizen. 

So, I do as I was told. I point the firearm at the center mass of the threat and press the trigger repeatedly until the threat is eliminated.

Then officer, "I was attacked by this man and thought he was armed. I was in fear for my life and forced to shoot in self defense."

At this point the officer will either not push you and may even lead you into saying it was self defense, you were in fear for your life and you want to speak to a lawyer before you say anything else.

If they decide to ask for more details, STOP! If they are trying to build a case against you then they suspect you did something wrong. In this case NOTHING you say is likely to stop them from arresting you.

Note gun lawyer Jon Gutmacher and author of "Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership" says, "If they're going to arrest you, They're going to arrest you".  Giving them detail at this point will only create a nightmare for you and your attorney later.

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## kyratshooter

I see here that there is a definate split between people living in liberal states, where wrongfull death suites are common, and those in conservitive states, where you get what was comming to you.

Lets look at it practically.  

I camped and hiked with my family for many years.  If I am in the woods and get caught in a situation I can not get out of, I hesitate for an instant and I am knocked in the head rather than shoot and be sued.

I wake up an find my wife and daughter have been gang raped.  Both are now HIV positive and have hep-C.  Both have ben mutilated and their attackers innitials are carved in their faces.  The wifes front teeth are now knocked out and I can not get any respone from the 12 year old daughter, she is catotonic.

How do I tell them I let this happen because I was afraid I was going to be sued?

I will never have to explain that situation to my family.  If that were to happen to them their last memory of me will be that "Dad died protecting us but he took three of them with him."

If live and I go to court and they demand everything I have, they will get a burned out shell of a house and have to recover the vehicles from the bottom of a quarry before I pay them a cent.

I am just that cantankerous! :boxer: 

And God help the people that were sitting on that jury.

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## Rick

If I had a nickle for every time I've read about that scenario happening.......

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## BENESSE

> If I had a nickle for every time I've read about that scenario happening.......


...you'd have 5 cents by now.

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## Rick

Or one nickle.

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## lucznik

Camp10,

Let me be clear that I'm not saying that the scenario you presented doesn't exist.  I'm no lawyer and I haven't done any extensive research into the issue.  I simply have never personally heard or read of any case where the type of ammunition (handloaded, "armor piercing", etc.), the specific type of gun (pistol, revolver, bolt action, lever action, automatic, etc.) or the specific cartridge for which it was chambered that was used in an otherwise-justifiable shooting ever was used to make the shooter appear bad - in criminal or civil court.  

If such a case exists, I would love to hear about it.  It might cause me to adjust the way I arm myself. Until I see evidence of such a scenario, however, I am forced to conclude that worrying about it represents a bit more paranoia than I am accustomed to accepting. 

I'm a bit like kryatshooter, if presented with an appropriate scenario, I'm going to shoot the perp with whatever is handiest and then let the chips fall where they may.  Living where I do, I'm not too concerned about coming down on the "wrong" side of things, criminally or civilly.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> It is most certainly more complicated than that... but really that is what it boils down to.
> 
> If somebody breaks into my house late at night, I really don't have any way to know if they intend me and my family harm..or just wanna steal my TV to support their drug habit.  
> 
> I take my responsibility to protect my wife and kids very seriously, moreso than protecting my own safety ( by far).. I am not a violent person at all, and believe in avoiding and diffusing situations.... Hopefully , it never comes to it, but if I had to, I would face off any threat to my family with as much overwhelming force as I could muster!
> 
> And face the consequences after the fact with a clear conscience.
> 
> If I have to do 10 years in prison in order to protect my family.... than so be it. of course, I'd rather not!!!!!!


 *Ding, Ding, Ding....we have a winner!*

Well said.

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## Camp10

> Camp10,
> 
> Let me be clear that I'm not saying that the scenario you presented doesn't exist.  I'm no lawyer and I haven't done any extensive research into the issue.  I simply have never personally heard or read of any case where the type of ammunition (handloaded, "armor piercing", etc.), the specific type of gun (pistol, revolver, bolt action, lever action, automatic, etc.) or the specific cartridge for which it was chambered that was used in an otherwise-justifiable shooting ever was used to make the shooter appear bad - in criminal or civil court.  
> 
> If such a case exists, I would love to hear about it.  It might cause me to adjust the way I arm myself. Until I see evidence of such a scenario, however, I am forced to conclude that worrying about it represents a bit more paranoia than I am accustomed to accepting. 
> 
> I'm a bit like kryatshooter, if presented with an appropriate scenario, I'm going to shoot the perp with whatever is handiest and then let the chips fall where they may.  Living where I do, I'm not too concerned about coming down on the "wrong" side of things, criminally or civilly.


I said that I would also use whatever was handy at the time.  I would do what needed to survive first...that isnt an issue.  I'm sure Ken could find many, many cases where a jury was swayed by some evidence that shouldnt matter at all. 

The best point (IMO)I made in my whole argument was that a jury is more likely to see you as the "victim" if you dont look like you've been waiting your whole life to be involved in a crime.  I'll stand by that statement but Kyratshooter might be right..it might be just a matter of what state you live in and how the politics are played there.  

I dont want pot growers to see me in their crop carrying an AK-47...it seems they might jump to conclusions that they wouldnt if I was hiding a Keltec and using a walking stick.

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## crimescene450

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, because i dont have a very broad knowledge of the way the legal system works.

but, lets say you shoot someone to death in self defense and are sued.  If you win the case, do you still have to pay your legal fees (your defense lawyer etc.)?  Or does the opposing party pay for them?

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## Rick

Oh, lucky you. You still get to pay to defend yourself.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Excuse me if this is a dumb question, because i dont have a very broad knowledge of the way the legal system works.
> 
> but, lets say you shoot someone to death in self defense and are sued.  If you win the case, do you still have to pay your legal fees (your defense lawyer etc.)?  Or does the opposing party pay for them?


 You pay your own legal expenses.

Same as with other law suits. That's why you hear about so many suits being settled, when you think people should fight them. Often, it's cheaper to settle, than to pay all the legal expenses.

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## crimescene450

that seems kind of unfair.  So if you kill a guy in selfdefense, youll still have to pay a bunch of money.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> that seems kind of unfair.  So if you kill a guy in selfdefense, youll still have to pay a bunch of money.


 It can cost you all the money that you have......but what is your life worth?

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## Rick

One more reason that avoidance is good. Someone posted the other day that the best way to win every gun fight is to never get into one. That's also a great way to win every court case. Make certain you never get sued.

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## Beans

Self defense in the wilds?  For an adventure of a lifetime- Welcome to AZ border country.

I used to  just carry a 1911 with an extra mag, when I went prospecting or metal detecting.

Now days It is an AK 47  with four 30 rds mags in my Jeep,  A Glock 23 with 2 extra mags on my belt and tennis shoes.

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## kyratshooter

> that seems kind of unfair.  So if you kill a guy in selfdefense, youll still have to pay a bunch of money.


What is not being pointed out is that it is very rare, if the DA does not prosceute then the civil case will probably be dismissed, and you do not have a list of mandatory penelties and payments. 

Wrongful death suites were almost unheard of before the OJ trials and are almost always due to "questionable circumstances".

You also have the ability to counter sue the criminal's family for providing the environment that created the dirt bag.

Insted of bending over and taking it from the legal system why not start taking control of it.  What we are dealing with is the takeover of the system by case law instead of common law.  It can be reversed.  Let your ELECTED OFFICIALS know who they answer too.  In my area we elect the DA and the judges.  Too much of this liberal foolishness and they are gone.

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## rebel

> I was bopping around the net today looking up things pertaining my 311 I just picked up and I had an article catch my eye.
> 
> The author was talking about survival guns for outdoors men and made mention of self defense. I instantly thought of bear and such, but after reading another sentence I realized that he he meant actual self defense against criminals.
> 
> His premise was that now days there are a lot of pot grows and meth labs out in the woods these days. I got to thinking about this and realized that it is more likely that I would come across something like this then a wild animal that wants to do me harm.
> 
> So how does this effect things? The gun I carry, the way I move through the woods, what to do if you come across something like this, how about your reaction if confronted by an operator of a drug facility, what about booby traps....... so forth and so on.  
> 
> What do you guys think? Have any of you thought about this?  My first reaction is to avoid, not much after that.


My uncle who was with the dnr ran across shotgun shell trip wire devises and fish hooks for drug defense.  

You have to be ready.

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## Alaskan Survivalist

> that seems kind of unfair.  So if you kill a guy in selfdefense, youll still have to pay a bunch of money.


I can't think of a more nieve concept than fairness. You be fair, I'm going to advantage myself every way possible!

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## rebel

How about this?  If you hook me, I take you out.

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## glockcop

Not including an area loaded with dangerous four legged predators, self defense in the woods or in the mean city streets are very similar as far as your equipment should go in my opinion. The same 9mm, 40, 45, 357, or 38 you rely on in town is going to serve you equally well out in the sticks for protection against bad guys. In fact the argument can be presented that you should rely on your "regular" carry piece in the woods because you will be more familiar with it's manual of arms in a time of crisis. It's not a good idea to carry a subcompact .40 in and around town then strap on some huge .460 S&W in the woods. They operate and "act" way too differently to rely upon in a stressful engagement. As an examle, That trusty Springfield XD/Glock/S&W 9mm you rely on every day for ccw will put bad guys ''out of commision'' in the woods just as handily as in the middle of the French Quarter. All this being said "avoidance" is the best policy but it's nice to have your trusted ''friend'' that you know inside and out on your hip when the SHTF, no matter where that may be. High capacity is also a good idea no matter what you may have heard. No such thing as ''too much money'' or ''too much ammo''. Best to ''have and not need'' than ''need and not have''. That's just my take on it. YMMV.

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## archangel

The best defense is avoidance. I would still note the location and maybe drop a tip to the boys in blue...just to get them out of the area.

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## Rick

Hey archangel, how about dropping a tip in our Introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself?

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## Batch

I have been thinking about this and the insistence of some that it would take years of training to learn to defend yourself.

I am concerned that people who are just now considering self defense will see that as too daunting and just buy a gun and think they are good to go.

So I would like to take this out of the relm where mall ninjas, dojo darlings, MMA practitioners and Reality Based Self Defense practitioners can argue semantics.

We can break down self defense many different ways. Physical conditioning, situational awareness, avoidance, blocks (flinches and cages), strikes, holds and grappling.

Before you went into the woods you chose a route, informed others of when and where you were going and went you expected to return. You stuck to your plan and KNOW where you are.

The self defense situation here would be the person who goes to the ATM. You can go to that bank with the ATM is in the back of the bank in an area concealed with bushes and trees in a poorly lit area at night. Or you can go to the drive through while the bank is open during the day.

If you make a bad choice you probably are going to need those ninja skills a lot sooner.

So the best place to begin is avoiding problems in either situation. Places like here can teach you the basics of wilderness survival without you needing to go and practise anything. Just what to take and how to plan and who to tell what to.

A GOOD self defense site can teach you a lot of how to avoid a conflict. How to devalue yourself as a target. Even some concepts. But, like wilderness skills, self defense skills MUST be practiced. You can watch someone make a fire with a bow drill and think that you can do it. If you have never done it you will most likely fail the first time. But, with guidance and practice and perseverance you will succeed.

Even a simple skill set like the flinch or chin jab need to be practiced a little. A little practice will greatly increase the effect of both and your chin jab will probably to high at first and not very effective. Not something you would want to learn in a real altercation. But, you can learn the flinch and related body posture in a very short time. Since it is built around a in voluntary reaction. A chin jab or cow catcher can also be taught in one session and can definitely give you the edge to escape if you have messed up and gotten behind the curve.

I haven't been active on the boards for awhile. So I don't know what has changed.

This forum was one of my favorites. There were a lot of very skilled people on that site that could tell you the ins and outs of various systems. There were folks on there a few years back like Gabe Saurez, Southnarc and Marc Denny that really pushed the edge of what works training. 

See if there is a Crossfit gym in the area. Tony Blauer has done a lot to integrate his SPEER system with Crossfit training and you'll likely find people willing to do a little force on force training in reality based fighting systems.

Get some gear, a trainer for your blade and a softair for your firearm and go have some fun!

http://www.totalprotectioninteractiv...orum/index.php

I had a 5 Dan Sifu tell me he could train me to defend myself with a knife in 5 years. He told me he would never get into a grapple or tangle situation. Because he had superior foot work and snap cut skills. LOL Talk about training to fail.

A journey of a thousand miles starts with the one step...

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

> My uncle who was with the dnr ran across shotgun shell trip wire devises and fish hooks for drug defense.  
> 
> You have to be ready.


I had an uncle that was a Game Warden and one Poacher was putting Caltrops in roads so that he was the only one able to go into certain wooded areas. Wrong-doers come up with all kinds of stuff to get their way. My Uncle ended up in a shoot-out with this same guy later. Both ended up in the Hospital shot-up. One went back to work...the other went to jail.

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## Ole WV Coot

> I had an uncle that was a Game Warden and one Poacher was putting Caltrops in roads so that he was the only one able to go into certain wooded areas. Wrong-doers come up with all kinds of stuff to get their way. My Uncle ended up in a shoot-out with this same guy later. Both ended up in the Hospital shot-up. One went back to work...the other went to jail.


This part of the country we call them jackrocks. They are used lots during coal strikes to disable trucks and private vehicles, sometimes get a foot. They were and are made by the 100s, two nails=one jackrock. :Devil2:

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## Alaskan Survivalist

I call them set guns.

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## Rick

Yeah, I had to look up Caltrops. We call them Jackrocks around here, too. Not that I would know about such things.

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