# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  Bedroll Feasibility

## GreatUsername

(Dear mods: not sure if this is primitive enough to be in this section, if you think it ought to be moved, my apologies)

I've always been interested in the idea of going camping with less-than-modern techniques, and recently started my journey that way by camping in single digit temperatures with modern stoves, lighting, and shelter, but non-modern clothing. By non-modern, I mean wearing primarily wool and flannel, no synthetics, no waterproof shells (other than a trenchcoat I oiled myself) and no rubber except the soles of my boots. I found myself quite comfortable in that environment even though I was the only person in my group without a parka, and now I'm curious to see how I can further delve into older methods. The next step in my mind is bedrolls. I have only gone camping without a tent a handful of times, and those were in very mild temperatures.

For some background, the bedroll I plan on using is one (or two, depending on weather) rough-grade wool blankets, one merino-wool blanket, one tarp (I'll use my synthetic tarp for now, but I'd like to get a lightweight canvas one eventually) for rainfly purposes, and my oiled trenchcoat for a groundcloth to cover the (presumably pokey) debris mattress I'll make on site. In addition, I'm going to try to have all of my gear either in the bedroll itself or on my belt, and go "old-school lightweight". The environments I plan on camping in are upland forest/temperate rainforest in my area, temperatures ranging from below freezing to 95 degrees, depending on the time of year. 

Assuming I'm smart about how I dress, will this setup work well in all of these environments? How does it suit for ease/comfort of carry? What are the major advantages and disadvantages? Your thoughts/experience/advice with this technique are much appreciated.

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## hunter63

While trying to go back in time, I have given this some thought and tried a few things involving canvas and wool blankets.

Botton line is that it is a heavy "kit".

Have looked at bedrolls, kinda marketed as Cowboy bed rolls....One example:
http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/canvas-co...FQVgMgodXW4AFg

Light weight canvas can be water proofed but if you lay on it, pressure points seem to get wet/damp.

Keep in mind that a lot of the 'kits" were not carried on one's person, but by pack horses, wagons etc.

You see pictures of the blanket rolled up and worn around the shoulder, but I have to believe those guy just froze their butts off.

Interesting subject........

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## GreatUsername

True, it could be pretty heavy, but I imagine there is some reduction in equipment weight when going old-fashioned (no stoves, gas-cans, heavy flashlights etc) and I can't imagine it would be much worse than some of the 70-lb packs I've shouldered. Granted, I'm a big guy, this may not be for everyone. Food and cooking kit would probably have to be pretty lightweight to account for this. My impression is that bedrolling gives you the limited resources of ultralighting, at the heavy weight of normal backpacking. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I would still like to try it out.

The lightweight canvas could be a problem if it leaks that easily, especially in the Olympic Rainforest... (150 inches per year) Do you know if that same problem happens when used as a rain-fly? (I probably wouldn't use the canvas for a groundcloth, even if it was heavy) I haven't tested my coat as a groundcloth for inundated conditions, but it has worked well on snow and mild dampness.

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## hunter63

Good canvas will shrink when it gets wet and tighten up the weave, making it water resistant.......light weigh canvas (read drop cloth) I don't believe you could water proof it unless you added gallons of whatever "stuff".
Good canvas is expensive.

My lodges for rendezvous are good canvas and are not treated as far as I know.......they do remain dry, unless something is touching it.

I had gone on a overnighter, hot day, so just brought a wool blanket for a cot, and it did drop in temp during the night....

So slipped the blanket roll inside the canvas bag the tent gets packed in, and really made a difference as far a being comfortable....that kinda got me started on bedrolls.

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## postman

The thing that I like about a bed roll over a sleeping bag is the versatility. You can add or subtract blankets as needed, they are more fire retardent than a sleeping bag, and also more waterproof. And if your wool blankets do get wet they will still keep you warm, and they are easier to dry as seperate peices than trying to dry a sleeping bag.

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## Rbrownkatz

I have not done exactly what you propose, but here is some experience that might help from when I was in the scouts in the mid 1960s. When I first joined, our troop was poor and our tents were ancient, floorless, single wall canvas wall tents with heavy, mismatched poles and pegs. They were all frayed and ripped and repaired with candle wax. They were too heavy and bulky to carry in a pack. But they didn’t leak unless something touched the canvas during a rain. 
I got a surplus military poncho and used it as a tarp so I did not have to depend on the tents. I learned to make a reflector fire in front of the tarp and that would keep me warm – though having to wake several times to feed the fire – no matter how cold it got (this was in New York and included camping in March, when a freeze was possible). Now I’ve learned a long log fire would be even better. (I wonder about combining a reflector with a long log). I also used a very old military canteen with a metal cap as a hot water bottle.
We didn’t have sleeping pads. I learned to pile leaves and other duff – especially pine needles – to make a 12 inch thick mattress that was good insulation. 
So it seems to me what you propose is definitely doable with a small canvas tarp and some skills. 
Sounds like fun.

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## kyratshooter

Me and Hunter and several others have probably already experimented and tested every method, product and peice of primitive equipment you will "invent" in your quest.  

Check out these guys and see if they are "natural" enough for you.  One of the stipulation of participation is requirement of all natural clothing and all primitive equipment.  These guys are not going to the motel at night, they are camping as primitive as they look.

http://www.battleofbluelicks.org/htm...o_gallery.html

http://thephotolane.smugmug.com/gall...82466310_e2tTF

This was my home for the past two weeks and there ain't any plastic or nulon anywhere in sight!

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

I have done enough research in the methods used in the past that I could probably write several books on the subject.  I have been reenacting, camping and trekking with only primitive gear since 1962, not that I do not own and use modern gear also, the historic "natural" gear is simply one of my primary hobby activities.  I have spent as long as two weeks in the woods using nothing made after 1800 and have spent many-many weekends using nothing made after 1780.  I did one historic camp that allowed nothing invented after 1675.

Remember that in the "old days" those guys seldom went anywhere alone, they also never traveled on foot unless forced too.  Canoe and packhorse were the norm and I know of only one individual that walked into the wilderness alone and with only what he could carry.  That was so unusual that it was well documented when it occurred.  

Even armies had supply trains a mile long following the infantry.

Another advantage they had was lack of fences and property boundires.  They could move around and find the best shelters and camp in the perfect locations.  Most of those locations have been used by people since prehistory, and are now ILLIGAL to use as campsites due to the laws covering archeology sites.  Caves, rock overhangs, natural outcrops and cliffs are all "protected areas" under Federal law, and exactly the best camping locations.

By never traveling alone that means that the "group" was not restricted to one blaket, they had one blanket each totaling to the number in the group.  They also did not have the social restrictions we work under today and four guys piling together with one blanket under and three on top was the norm.  You only carried one blanket, but you had access to four blankets at sleep time.  Today everyone is searching for the "magic blanket" that will keep them warm in zero degrees like the mountain men used.  

That blanket never existed.

They had and used oiled canvas extensivly.  Fact is they had better oiled canvas than we do today.  The manufacturers can no longer put the "good stuff" in the products they sell us, so we have second rate "natural" materials compared to theirs.


Oiled canvas can be tricky and many people have various recipes.  Like all things on the internet there are a lot of recipes out there that have been posted by people that never actually tried the recipe.  A lot of good canvas has been ruined in the pursuit of oilcloth.  When you are ready to oil your canvas get back in touch.  I have oiled enough canvas to cover yankee stadium with a new roof.  I have a fool-prof recipe that is cheap simple and safe.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...light=oilcloth



Please ask here before you buy, experiment or go to great efforts in your quest for the "natural".  There are folks here that have already done the hard part and can save you a bundle of money and a lot of time.  If something in the archives is not clear post the question or PM one of us buckskinners.  Most of us have "seen the elephant" a couple of times.

First thing I would suggest is looking into a beter outter garmet.  You can do that while searching for you ideal bedroll.  Just purchase an extra blanket when you buy your bedroll makings.  (Sportsman's Guide usually as some excellent surplus wool blankets from Italy or Sweeden)  What you are looking for is an item called a capote.  It is a "parka" made from a blanket and has been around for centuries.

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/gear/capote.htm

After you make the capote you will realize that you now have an extra blanket, which you are wearing, seperate from you bedroll.  I made mine with a button on hood and tall collar.  Make it the way you want it and if it does not work out changer it to suit your needs.

In spite of our sarcastic abuse of trolls we really do enjoy passing along good information to well thought out questions.

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## FVR

I have used both canvas and my military poncho along with a wool blanket and a sleeping bag. I have found that a military wool blanket and a poncho is basically the best. The human taco roll just can not be beat. Canvas is awsome, but it will never be 100% waterproof. You can treat it or paint it, but that adds weight. Downfall of the wool blanket is that it is bulkier than a sleeping bag. The good about a wool blanket, you can not only sleep in it, but you can also wrap yourself up in it and start walking. Even when wet it will keep you warm. So, my ideal set up is my military wool blanket and poncho. I wear a military wool blanket homemade half sleeve, open front over shirt. Why open front... so if I start to get warm I can just open it a little to cool off. This set up has saved my butt while hog hunting in south Ga. many many years ago. Who would have thought that a south Ga. swamp would get down to 0 degrees.

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## Sarge47

> ....Who would have thought that a south Ga. swamp would get down to 0 degrees.


Les Stroud?     :W00t:

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## kyratshooter

Returning to natural materials is a very romantic notion but the truth is that modern materials work better, are lighter and are often more durable.

I ave a zero rated sleeping bag that weighs 4 pounds.  My Hudson Bay blanket, that will not keep me warm down to 40 degrees, weighs 8 pounds.

My ripstop Tarp weighs only a couple of ounces while my 5x7 canvas oilclth weighs a couple of pounds.

If no outside restrictions are being placed on me (like historic site requirements) I will choose my modern gear any time severe use is required, or most importantly any time I have to carry ther goods.

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## GreatUsername

I suppose so, but my mind turns to an anecdote from my dad about how his ultralight down sleeping bag failed him in wet weather, and he had hypothermia the next morning. I'd rather take something that doesn't chill when wet, even if it weighs three times as much to get the same warmth. I can always forgo some other piece of less essential equipment to balance the weight. 

Then again, if there were some sleeping system that is as warm and wet-proof as wool but at ultralight weights, I'd be interested in that. Would bivy-sacks fit that bill?

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## crashdive123

When I lived in your state on the western (wet) side of the Cascades I backpacked with a Slumberjack -40 bag and a tent.  Was always dry and warm at night.

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## Rbrownkatz

There's a wide range of synthetic fill sleeping bags. Here's just one example from a pretty good company: http://www.backcountrygear.com/campi...alamina-1.html.  3.4 lbs good down to 0 degrees F. But expensive! 
I prefer a down bag and I keep it in a dry bag. There are several companies beginning to offer products made with down treated to be almost as good as synthetics when wet. http://www.theactivetimes.com/future...aterproof-down.

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## Mouser

I use a goose down bag...but then again I also use a sleeping pad and long distance hike with a 35lb load.

Long term I would use a synthetic if I was packing more and didn't have regular stops off into town.

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## kyratshooter

> I suppose so, but my mind turns to an anecdote from my dad about how his ultralight down sleeping bag failed him in wet weather, and he had hypothermia the next morning. I'd rather take something that doesn't chill when wet, even if it weighs three times as much to get the same warmth. I can always forgo some other piece of less essential equipment to balance the weight. 
> 
> Then again, if there were some sleeping system that is as warm and wet-proof as wool but at ultralight weights, I'd be interested in that. Would bivy-sacks fit that bill?


And DOWN is a new hi-tech material?  Down has been used since the stone age, just like wool.  Like wool it has some limitations.  That is because it is a natural material and can not cover all the bases.

There is this myth that wool is warm even when wet, that is BS.  I have tried to stay warm with wet wool and it just ain't going to happen.  You get wet you are going to get cold using any material you have.  If wool maintains 80% of its heat retention and it was already on the edge of its capabilities when you loose 20% you are one frozen popsicle!

Many of the synthetics now used retain their warmth even when wet better than wool.  The top line gear is designed with the use of those materials in mind.  A $15 Wallmart bag will not have those features but when you get into the $100 range you will have some of them offered.

Military sleep systems are designed to be carried to the bivwack area by truck.  In every instance I was in we had the option of carrying ammo or sleeping bags.  The sleeping bags were ALWAYS left behind.  That was one reason the GI poncho liner gained the fame it did.

In fact, exposure to and enduring the elements is a military invention.  We have carried it over into work related activities and now we feel we should be able to recreate in any weather and never feel wer or cold.   If we get uncomfortable someone should invent something!

The real trick is to do what the people in the old days did,  When the weather was bad they stayed inside!

We tend to think everyone has always lived as we do, with deadlines and restriction on time in the bush.  We have to get out there rain or shine because this is our ony chance at woods time for 6 months.  They sat out the rain, snow and severe weather at all costs.  If you were out in the bush when severe weather hit you sought shelter immidiately.  Sickness due to exposure was not just and inconvinience to them, it could mean death.  Remember that old saying Grandma had about having enough sense to get in out of the rain?

The rule of threes still applies, three hours with out shelter will kill you, even with good clothing it applies.  Find shelter before you get wet.  Your parka is not shelter, it is what allows you to roam around a bit and find shelter.  And a sleeping bag is for use inside a shelter, it is not shelter.

The one group that absolutely had to get out in bad weather was the farmer tending his stock.  Most of our classic outdoor wear is only slightly modified farm clothing.  But the farner never expected or intended to sleep outside.

Modern gear comes in two forms; expidition gear for rough use and sport gear designed to impress the folks in the ski lodge.  Don't get them confused.

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## Jimmyq

Good post Kyrat.

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## GreatUsername

Indeed, good points all around.

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## randyt

My great great granddad was rained on and three days later or so he was gone. He was about thirty five years old.

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## Rick

I only started using a tent a few years ago. As I get older the ground gets harder and I'm more sissiefied in my old age. A poncho was my tent and I usually had a small plastic tarp for a ground cover. The rest of my protection was in my clothes. 

I think Hunter pointed out above that wool is heavy. Wet wool is VERY heavy and will make you sweat if you are forced to wear it very long. Not good in cool to cold environs. Walking with wet wool is a lot of work. That's the reason lighter clothing was developed. 

You are welcome to your old timer's methods and I wish you luck. I'm just to old not to be comfortable these days.

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## FVR

Have to disagree with Kyra on the wool. Years back I decided to go trout fishing in a North Ga. stream, in December. I did not have hip boots or long johns, so I wore a pair of heavy duty wool socks pulled up to my knees. Then I wore my wool leggins. I put on a pair of canvas air force knee boots and hit the water. My feet and knees were wet, but they were warm. It is not a myth, but then you need to factor in what you consider cold. A North Ga. mountain stream in December, pretty freakin cold.

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## Batch

> I think Hunter pointed out above that wool is heavy. Wet wool is VERY heavy and will make you sweat if you are forced to wear it very long. Not good in cool to cold environs. Walking with wet wool is a lot of work. That's the reason lighter clothing was developed.


I would think that wet wool that makes you sweat would be no different than wet wool? The problem with sweating in cold weather is that the sweat could ice up.How is sweat worse than water?

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## GreatUsername

I suppose he means that it will make you sweat from the exertion, and once you remove the outer (now heavy) layers of wool, the sweat will chill you rapidly. Personally, I don't see the issue, but I understand the logic. I generally just don't take off my wool unless it is very wet and needs to be dry, and then I have a fire going.

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## Rick

You need a lot of water intake in cold weather and walking with heavy clothing that makes you sweat means you need more water intake. Wet cold is wet cold whether it's wet by water or wet by sweat but dehydration by hypothermia has to be a lousy way to go. 

Dehydration: "He's mine I tell ya!"
Hypothermia: "I saw him first!"

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## finallyME

Great discussion.  Ever since KYrat posted about his Florida trip, and all the others, plus Hunter and his posts, I have been thinking about reenactment clothing.  My church likes to do reenactments of crossing the plains in the mid 1800's.  One thing I was wondering about was Hemp clothing.  Any experience with Hemp?

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## hunter63

Hemp, tends to be itchy...but then a real mountain man wouldn't care....LOL.
Actually some of the commercial made cloth or even purchased olden style clothes are pretty nice.

I'm looking into a hunting smock for another jump back in time to the 1856-60's....so I will let you know.

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## kyratshooter

> Hemp, tends to be itchy...but then a real mountain man wouldn't care....LOL.
> Actually some of the commercial made cloth or even purchased olden style clothes are pretty nice.
> 
> I'm looking into a hunting smock for another jump back in time to the 1856-60's....so I will let you know.


Do you mean 1756-1760 Hunter?

And are you wanting the SMOCK or the fringed hunting shirt?

Here in Long-hunter country we have a three step system;

Wagoneers smock, which is a pull-over knee length design

Split front smock, which is the wagoneers smock split open down the front and worn like a coat.  Over lapped in front and worn with a sash as a belt.

Fringed hunting shirt, which is the traditional "rifleman's frock" seen everywhere.

The wagoneers smock and split front smock are good to 1756-60 but the fringed rifel frock did not come around until just before the rev war.

I use a wagoneers smock with fringe on the shoulders and seams but without the cape of the rifle frock since the cape irritates me to death flopping around when trying to to any work or demos.  That and I sometimes do historic sites that go back to 1670+- and the smock is a timeless piece of gear.

Hemp would be a good fabric for any of them and time appropriate.  Many different grades of hemp fabric were used back then, from rough to very fine.  It was easier to deal with than cotton before the cotton gin was developed and used for many things that we have substituted cotton for.

Up in your neck of the woods you can go way back in the time frame.  The French were in there pretty early and the HBC was right on their tail, espically after the F&I war.

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## hunter63

Yeah I meant 1756-60's....not sure, been looking for something to wear to be correct with the French fusil......but just started getting my reading in......

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/306/1

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## kyratshooter

No real rules apply to that decision Hunter.  Again, there are a lot of self appointed "experts" that try to warp history to meet their need.

We had French traders and hunters mixed in with the longhunters drifting over the mountains from NC and VA down in TN and here in KY all along the Ohio River.   Several of the English/Scott/German longhunters in TN had French hunting partners and they drifted in and out of the KY forts constantly.  Nashville's origional name was French Lick and it was not changed until 1780.  KY was French long before it was English.  Wisconson was the same!

The guns and gear were often mixed and matched so do what you feel comfortable with.

I remember reading in one of Hansons' books where they excivated a lot of English guns using imported french flints and some were double patched where the natives were buying smaller bore precast balls bought from the French in their English guns.  What it ment was that some goods were being bought from English traders and some from French sources.  They were not tied to one source or style.  They would trade with HBC today and jump in their canoe and head for a French fort tomorrow.

Also means that an English hunter in a French town would buy a shirt made by some Indian girl from French fabric if he needed one.  Same for a French hunter at Ft Boonesboro.  I doubt he would stop wearing the shirt when he went home.  The wagoneers smock was a universal garmet, worn all over Europe to protect the clothing.  (Sort of like modern day "coveralls".)   I have seen the same garmet in English, French, Italian and German paintings.

The form of the work smock remained unchanged from the middle ages right to the 20th century.  It was worn lose or belted and made from whatever fabric was chep, sturdy and available.  

Check this link and scroll down to the illistration between page 56-57.  It's purebred French and has your work smock shown.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1C5...rovers&f=false

Parts of this link are missing but the one selling rabbits and the very last one are excellent.  

http://www.larsdatter.com/18c/smocks.html


http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.co...len-frock.html

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## hunter63

Half the fun is the research.....so I am just plugging along....

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## kyratshooter

Yea, I get carried away when I find a folio of old paintings of rural scenes with the common people and their clothes included.

Research is one place where I am glad I have access to the internet.  University to University trade of information was one of the origional reasons for internet development, not tweets and Facebook.

Check out that last link above.  That Woodsrunner's Diary is a blogspot with serious documentation.  Proper grammer and punctuation also.  It reads like real English!

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## finallyME

> Check out that last link above.  That Woodsrunner's Diary is a blogspot with serious documentation.  Proper grammer and punctuation also.  It reads like real English!


Here is his youtube channel.  He really must be an expert then.  I have been subscribed to his channel for a while.  Didn't know he had a blog as well.
http://www.youtube.com/user/historicaltrekking

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## hunter63

Thanks will check it out........

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## kyratshooter

An Australian longhunter,

Who woulda' thought?

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## endurance

Regarding wool and staying warm when it's wet, according to an article I read on Andrew Skurka's blog that seemed to make sense, the advantage of wool over synthetics as a base layer is that the moisture tends to move into the fiber, thus, away from the skin so you don't get that clammy feel you get with cotton or even hydrophobic fabrics like polyester.  Polyester fiber is 100% hydrophobic.  While moisture can move between the fibers and this is where moisture 'hangs out' in the fabric when you're really sweating, this keeps the moisture close to your skin.  Wool fibers on the other hand pull that moisture to the core of the fiber and while moisture can also 'hang out' outside the fibers, by its very nature, it wicks into the fiber.

The relevance is lower in this thread when it comes to staying warm and dry with a wool bedroll.  In all cases a wet media will absorb calories and make you colder than a dry media.  The advantages of synthetic loft material is it has retains more dead air space because it is less prone to collapse than down.  Dead air space = warmth.  Pound for pound, dry down is best, but synthetic fiber loft material is a close second and wet it beats down hands down.  Dry wool is warm, but it's also heavy.  Wet wool is not warm, but probably provides more dead air space than a soggy down sleeping bag.

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## Wildthang

I have never been into reinactments except for wearing my indian loin cloth around the house :Scared:

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## hunter63

> An Australian longhunter,
> 
> Who woulda' thought?


Kinda make you wonder if they are modeled after the Australian or American frontiers....

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## kyratshooter

> Kinda make you wonder if they are modeled after the Australian or American frontiers....


Australian frontier is pretty cool in its own right.  Much like America post War of 1812 without the fur trade with wambats and 'roos replacing the deer and buffalo.  

I hear the Germans do some Colonial American/longhunter stuff too.  Makes sense due to a bunch of the settlers comming out of Germany.  

I'm not proud, I will take my documentation where I find it.

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## hunter63

Kinda make ya wonder what they are doing with allllllll that forest land in Siberia......always kinda looked like the Ponderosa to me....
Mountain man with Nagant.......

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