# General > General Guns & Ammo >  The Perfect Survival Gun

## klickitat

Warning: The following is an opinion.

I am of the firm belief that a double barrel 20 g. is the perfect survival gun.

Here is a list of reasons:
#1 A 20 g. slug will take any game in North America.
#2 Various shot size will take any bird or small game.
#3 A double barrel shotgun is a formidable defensive weapon.

I personally like a double with 2 triggers so that I can choose the barrel I want to shoot. I can then load shot in one barrel and slug in the other. This way when I am out hunting I have the option of taking any game that presents itself. 

For me and the areas I hunt there is a lot of brush. Shots past 80 yards are actually rare where I hunt. Most everything I have taken has been well short of that. 

So why 20 g. instead of 12 g.? Well I actually have a 12 g. and I love the gun, but the slugs and the shot move at the same velocity in both shells. The only thing that changes is the amount of lead. For slugs the 12 g. is .73 caliber. and the 20 g. is .62 caliber.  The 20 g. is more than enough to knock down anything in N.A., but I do like the fact that the 20 g. takes up less room and weighs less for the same amount ammo.

The following pictures are of Dolly. She started out as a Remington 1889 12g. When I bought her she had bad dents in the last four inches of the barrels that some one tried to take out with heat (bad, bad, bad) so I got her cheap and that allowed me money enough to have a few things done to her. I had the barrels cut back to 24" and then had a set of express flip up rifle sights installed. 

She now prints 3/4" composite groups (2 shots) with Fiocchi slugs at 60 yards. This opens up to 3-4 inches at 100 yards. This is not typical and I realize that I got lucky, but it worked better than I could ever of hoped for.

With the success that I had and with my opinion of the 12g. vrs. 20g. I bought another double in 20g. The idea with the flip up sights is that I can notch the second and third blades to match the barrels point of aims independently.  Figuring that I will be caring shot in the left barrel and slugs in the right, I expect that I will only have to set the blades for the right barrel (slugs) and then just learn the lead for the left barrel (shot). The second and third blades will then be for distance.

This is Dolly:
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## kyratshooter

I can't argue with your logic or opinion.

My own personal favorite is a 20/.22 combo gun like the Savage 24.  I had one rigged with see through scope mounts.  The scope was set for the .22 and the iron sights for the 20 ga slug.  Shotshell bandolier for a sling and the buttsock filled with .22s.  It was a great foraging gun.  I kept it in the redneck rack in the back window of the farm pickup for years.

I'd be out checking the fence, stop and shoot supper and head to the house.

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## Pal334

The Perfect Survival weapon is the one you have at hand when you need it ( I am sure I am paraphrasing something that I have read here and now agree with). I think it is similar to the question about the perfect survival knife  :Smile: . I read your choice and have no arguements with your choice (if that matters  :Smile: )

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## Old GI

> Warning: The following is an opinion.
> 
> I am of the firm belief that a double barrel 20 g. is the perfect survival gun.
> 
> Here is a list of reasons:
> #1 A 20 g. slug will take any game in North America.
> #2 Various shot size will take any bird or small game.
> #3 A double barrel shotgun is a formidable defensive weapon.
> 
> ...



Dolly is GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!  A real beauty.  I love those old rabbit ear doubles.

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## Sarge47

I love the "Double 20 ga."  Don't know how that old of a gun that you've shown there will handle modern loads; does it sport the old "Damascus-twist" barrel?

I had a really nice 20 gauge double-barrel that I had to sell to my brother-in-law, I really miss that gun.

About the same time I sold my Savage-Stevens 20/22, I'm still kicking myself over that one!   :Cool2:

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## hunter63

The current membership count seems to be 5050 members........so I guessing that there will be 5050 opinions on the perfect Survival gun.

At any rate that is a sweet piece. 
Besides sorta fooling around with old military stuff, one of my other periodic "illnesses" is old Crescent Arms shot guns.

As one of them is a 16 ga, SxS, exposed hammer, I can relate to the lines and balance of "Dolly"
Thanks for posting.

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## klickitat

> The current membership count seems to be 5050 members........so I guessing that there will be 5050 opinions on the perfect Survival gun.
> 
> At any rate that is a sweet piece. 
> Besides sorta fooling around with old military stuff, one of my other periodic "illnesses" is old Crescent Arms shot guns.
> 
> As one of them is a 16 ga, SxS, exposed hammer, I can relate to the lines and balance of "Dolly"
> Thanks for posting.


Too funny, I also recently picked up a beautiful Crescent 16g. with exposed hammers. The one I picked up is in about 85% condition with most of the case hardened color still on the gun. It looks like some one at some time did some extra work to it and added a bunch of inlay to it. I need to pick up some 16 g. ammo so that I can take it out and shoot it. 

I have plans on sleeving the right barrel in a rifle cartridge and building a cape gun out of it.

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## klickitat

> I love the "Double 20 ga."  Don't know how that old of a gun that you've shown there will handle modern loads; does it sport the old "Damascus-twist" barrel?
> 
> I had a really nice 20 gauge double-barrel that I had to sell to my brother-in-law, I really miss that gun.
> 
> About the same time I sold my Savage-Stevens 20/22, I'm still kicking myself over that one!


This particular gun has fluid steel barrels and shoots modern loads just fine. After several hundred rounds, it is as tight as the day it was built. I did have my gunsmith check it out before I had any work done and before I shot anything through it.

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## kyratshooter

> The current membership count seems to be 5050 members........so I guessing that there will be 5050 opinions on the perfect Survival gun.
> 
> At any rate that is a sweet piece. 
> Besides sorta fooling around with old military stuff, one of my other periodic "illnesses" is old Crescent Arms shot guns.
> 
> As one of them is a 16 ga, SxS, exposed hammer, I can relate to the lines and balance of "Dolly"
> Thanks for posting.


Yea, these threads are pure opinion.  I have mine and you can have yours too.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Anybody can disagree with me, they have the right to be absolutly and positively WRONG if they want too. :Innocent: 

(Not picking a fight or disagreeing, just being a SA)

That thing about the best gun being the one you have at hand could be true.  I simply refuse to have "anything at hand" I do not want to use!  I don't carry cheap pocket knives either.  Same reason.  That is one thing that comes with age and experience.  You learn what works for YOU and how to make what you have work.  

I know that working with traditional muzzle loaders and 18th century gear has expanded my experiences.  It has showed me that some things can not be improved on and some modern gear is so far advanced it should be accepted without question.

Since I followed everyone elses lead here, and sold my Savage 24 many years back to cover a monsterous mid-winter electric bill, I no longer own what I consider "perfect".  Even in the 24 I had reservations.  I would have really chosen the .357/20ga and still like that combination.

If Rossi comes out with their Trivecta with a .357 barrel there will be one in my safe instantly.  It will be clipped back to leagal minimum and scoped before it is ever shot.  It will be in the pack with the other barrels needed to round out usage.  

Even that I do not consider perfect.   Everything is going to come up short in one area or be overkill in another.

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## Ole WV Coot

That Savage 24 in 22/20 was my favorite and also racked up mileage. I would sure like to run across one made around 1960, the one with the selector behind the hammer.

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## Pal334

"That thing about the best gun being the one you have at hand could be true. I simply refuse to have "anything at hand" I do not want to use! I don't carry cheap pocket knives either. Same reason. That is one thing that comes with age and experience. You learn what works for YOU and how to make what you have work. "

Agreed, I don't buy low quality either, just means it will have to be replaced soon. So hopefully what is at hand is "your good stuff"  :Smile:

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## randyt

that's a nice old shotgun. I have a remington 1900 in 12 gauge with 20 inch barrels. I don't use it much anymore. I've retired it for a 12 gauge double barrel stoeger.

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## kyratshooter

Did anyone else have a hankering for one of those cheap Bakial 20ga over and unders they imported from Russia in the early 90s, cut down to pistol size?

If I had the paperwork for one of those I would change my mind about small concealed carry guns.

I'd probably have to make my own sholder holster.

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## hunter63

> Did anyone else have a hankering for one of those cheap Bakial 20ga over and unders they imported from Russia in the early 90s, cut down to pistol size?
> 
> If I had the paperwork for one of those I would change my mind about small concealed carry guns.
> 
> I'd probably have to make my own sholder holster.


Got one in a trade, haven't cut it down though, but use it when I "Upland hunting" with some up-it-y acquaintances.

I am told they were imported by Remington, and they supposedly are making the Remington version of the Savage Model 24 O/U.

https://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G89392

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## tsitenha

Savage 24 in 20ga/.22 would also be my choice. Very adaptable.

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## Quigley

IMO A shotgun is definitely a good survival gun. However, it has one major down fall; ammo is heavy and takes up lots of space. Around here there is nothing that a .22lr will not take with the exception of the occasional black bear. A single .22 cartridge weighs about 1/12th  of what a shotgun shell weighs and has about a longer range.

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## kyratshooter

Weight of ammo is only a concern if one is living out of a pack and carrying everything they own.  Most of the people doing that will be where they were going or dead after the first two weeks of an apacoliptic event.  That's not survival, that's getting where you need to be for survival.  Most will never get there.

Those of us that are old enough to own a place and too old to run appriciate scatterguns immensly.  We keep .22s for what they are best at, but they are limited. 

Normal day in, day out survival where you grab the gun, already loaded, grab a couple of extra shells and head out the door to walk the fences, feed the cattle or walk down to the store and need the gun in case you jump food, with the minute chance of a bad guy around, a shotgun is what will be in your hands 90% of the time.  Having the .22 barrel attached to the smoothbore creates the ideal foraging tool.

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## rwc1969

I was raised on a 20 ga. break action Winchester. i killed just about everything that moved with it. So, I'd agree it's a great and perhaps the best multi-purpose gun.

But, except for fast moving small targets I prefer a .22LR over everything else now. It has no limits in my hands, guaranteed!

I do like the 20 over a 12 for small game though, because you pick less lead out afterwards. For duck, turkeys or goose I'd rather use a 12 though. They're usually further away and my 20 wouldn't quite reach out and touch them. but, the 20 did a number on pheasants, rabbits and squirrels and with a slug it did a number on deer too.

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## kyratshooter

One of the reasons I am a strong 2nd Ammendment advocate is due to remembering the people I once knew, back when things in the south were rough and the people that lived through the Great Depression were still middle aged folks.

When I was a kid I knew people back in the TN sticks that were still living much like their ancestors.  They raised a few hogs, planted a big garden and counted on squirrel and rabbit as a primary part of their food supply.  The only money they saw was a little cash they earned working at the sawmill or odd jobs they picked up.  

They MIGHT have a .22 somewhere around the place but they ALWAYS had a shotgun.  It was usually a SS 12 or 16 and most of the time it would rattle if you shook it.  They still depended on it for food two or three days a week.  No fancy sport shooting here, you took your shot as soon as you saw food, hoping you could catch it still or sitting.  Most people passed on wing shots and only the "sportsmen" shot bunnies while they were running.

Now that is not saying one is better than the other, it is simply what I have seen in my geographic setting among people that were closest to living the self sufficient lifestyle with all the theory and speculation of urban dwelling FEMA planners set aside.  

There was no "big game" in our area.  Much of the country was "fringe brush" and much was still recovering from abandonment during the great depression.  The south was still considered a "conquered colonial nation" and  industry, jobs and money was scarce.  (think in terms of the Obama plan for the U.S. future) When you absolutely positively have to hit what you expect to eat you are going to find a lot of shotguns in use.

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## Leighman

Your "perfect survival gun" (or anyone's) is dependent on geographic location, time of the year, experience, and many, many other variables.

What works for you in "X" location may not fulfill my own requirents in "Y" location.

Sure, the 20 gauge slug MAY indeed down the majority of wild game in North America.
Still, I sure don't want to be the test case if confronted with an angry and startled Bull Moose in Northern Maine with only 2 short range slugs at my disposal.

No flames to the OP, but in a real survival situation, there is no "best" of anything; there never has been and there will neve be.

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## Leighman

[QUOTE=klickitat;236736]
She now prints 3/4" composite groups (2 shots) with Fiocchi slugs at 60 yards. This opens up to 3-4 inches at 100 yards. This is not typical and I realize that I got lucky, but it worked better than I could ever of hoped for.

And there is  exactly where the abilty & experience of the shooter far outweighs the inherent accuracy of the firearm. 

Your choice may not be mine but kudos to "knowing" your firearm's limits.

Me? Savage 24C Camper's Campanion. Yes, a 20 bore on the bottom but a 22rimfire atop for smaller stuff...and I avoid BIG critters, just to be safe.

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## Heathen

What scope mount did you use and were can I buy one?

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## hunter63

Not sure if you are going to get any answers....that thread is from 2010, and haven't seen some of those guys for a while.

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## randyt

If it's the post from Krat, maybe a PM to him would suffice.

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## Highhawk1948

I like my Savage 24, 3 inch 20 gauge, and .22 Long Rifle.  Good all around combo.

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## hunter63

I have a scope mount on my M24 but not a see thou
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

POA was set for .22 but makes it hard to see for the 20 ga. so took it off.

M24 has a 3/8 grooves for a .22 scope so an adaptor can be bought.....
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/dovetail-scope-mount

BTW it does say, on the barrel, to not shoot the shotgun with a clamp on scope mounted......factory CYA

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## Phaedrus

Wow!  Serious thread resurrection!  The term "survival gun" is complicated, I suppose.  The USAF has their idea of survival guns for a downed pilot.  A camper or fisherman has his definition of one based on where she lives.  If I lived in Alaska my survival gun would be different than it would be here.  So long as you don't live in a place with large dangerous critters I suppose a .22lr with a couple hundred rounds of ammo would be a pretty good survival gun, depending on the situation.  Sure can't criticize the double 20 ga aside from the fact that it would be hard to carry a lot of ammo for it.  An over/under with a .22 LR over a 20 ga would be pretty sweet.

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## ElevenBravo

Caliber inserts make a shotgun even more versatile, but only work in a break barrel. 


https://www.google.com/search?q=shot...x-a&channel=sb


EB

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## kyratshooter

> What scope mount did you use and were can I buy one?



Ancient thread alright!  We have done 10 or 20 Savage 24 threads since this one faded into the background.  Perhaps this will help.

http://www.amazon.com/Kwik-Site-Kwik...ords=kwik+site

These give a wide field of view for using the shotgun without removing the scope.  If you shoot with both eyes open the mount is just a haze which you are shooting through.

One trick you have to do is use a small dot of JB Weld at the front of each side where the clamp hits the mounting groove.  If you do not do that the scope and mounts will shift forward under recoil and slide off the grooves when you use the 20 gauge barrel.  Screws up your zero too.

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## Great Dane

For an alround weapon, I'll take an AK47 over a shotgun any day of the week.

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## Rick

Well, that's your choice but I think you just gave up a lot of versatility unless you plan to go to war.

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## Great Dane

@ Rick

I've had enough war, so I'll pass on that part.
I guess it's down to preference, but both are off the table here. There's no legal way for a private person to own an AK47 in my country anyway.
Gun ownership is very restricted, and limited to people with valid hunting licenses. Even then, there are very serious restrictions to how you store and transport any firearm, as well as what kinds of weapon you can own. Keeping a hunting rifle in your car, unless you're going DIRECTLY to a hunt, or going DIRECTLY home from a hunt, is against the law and the punishment for violating such laws are severe.. No "slap on the wrist" sentences.

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## Graf

My favorite is my Rossi .22/410 interchangable barrels,stock is synthetic so I store additonal ammo in stock, great sights accurate.comes with a sleeved case that will easily fit into a pack. short and sweet ammo easy to store. Low light sights. Inexpensive i have shot quite a bit and am still impressed.

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## Sarge47

I own a Henry AR-7 survival rifle.  This gun was NOT designed for the military, but for civilian use.  The original gun that it was taken from was the AR-5 made for the military.  It was bolt action and the magazine held 4 .22 Hornet rounds...a center-fire round.  It was made by ArmaLite:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...f=123&t=608019

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...f=123&t=608019

 :Detective:

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## cwlongshot

IMHO. It's a fools argument to talk against someone who chooses a shotgun as a survival caliber. I agree it's a great and logical choice. 

I need to take it a step farther and hump the weight as a Myrat shooter mentions straight off. The Savage 24. 22M over 20 ga would be my choice. 

What the shotgun dosen't do the Maggie will! 

CW

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## Lamewolf

I guess my favorite survival gun would have to be a 22LR, preferably my Ruger 1022.  I can carry lots of ammo for it, and with proper shot placement it could even take fairly large game if need be.

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## kyratshooter

Well, I own a 10/22, and one of the last available stashes of .22 ammo in Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana, and consider it next to last on my list of choices, one step above a zip gun.

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## Lamewolf

> Well, I own a 10/22, and one of the last available stashes of .22 ammo in Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana, and consider it next to last on my list of choices, one step above a zip gun.


Couldn't be the last stash of 22 ammo, cause I just bought 3 325 round cans of Federal ammo for $19.95 a can and that was in Ohio !  And I have a few thousand rounds stashed away too !

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## kyratshooter

Now you do remember that 2 years ago the Federal 325 was going for $5 a box at Walmart?

So now we are at the point where IF we can find crappy Federal junk .22 at any price it is cause for rejoicing?

My 10/22 will not shoot Federal ammo half the time, so if they were giving it away it would do me no good.

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## crashdive123

Yeah, but you could always shoot it out of one of your other dozen or so 22's.

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## kyratshooter

Hey!

I was trying to make a point.

No fair telling them about the other 14!!

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## RangerXanatos

> Well, I own a 10/22, and one of the last available stashes of .22 ammo in Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana, and consider it next to last on my list of choices, one step above a zip gun.


Is it because of it being a 10/22 or shoots 22lr? I see about it not liking half of the federal rounds but care to go into more depth of an explanation?

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## diddap

The double 20 is a long, long ways from being "formidable", actually. It's got one lousy shot more than a muzzleloader, whoopee. You'd better pray that your attacker is alone, fully-exposed and is dumb enough to not have a gun.  The 20's got an effective range (maybe) of 20 yds with buckshot (whooppee) and very few double barrels shoot slugs anything like close to each other's POI at the target, nor near where the beads are pointed. A pump 12 is a poor choice, too, but it's got the double  20 beat all to aitch.

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## diddap

So if you need a survival longarm, do you really "think" that you won't have lots of desperate people in the same shape as you are in? :-) Just because you "pass" on war, they'll not kill you and yours, right? You'd be foolish to choose anything that does not offer rapidfire and silenced use. Why scare off the game, or lose a cripple for lack of a fast repeat shot, or be unable to handle a dog pack or a rabid animal? why not be able to use your "survival rifle" for normal defense, riots, etc? why give away your location to enemies, with noise or flash at night? Why have your night adapted vision ruined with the first shot? That's what a shotgun does, since there's no flashhiders for them.

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## Lamewolf

> Your "perfect survival gun" (or anyone's) is dependent on geographic location, time of the year, experience, and many, many other variables.
> 
> What works for you in "X" location may not fulfill my own requirents in "Y" location.
> 
> Sure, the 20 gauge slug MAY indeed down the majority of wild game in North America.
> Still, I sure don't want to be the test case if confronted with an angry and startled Bull Moose in Northern Maine with only 2 short range slugs at my disposal.
> 
> No flames to the OP, but in a real survival situation, there is no "best" of anything; there never has been and there will neve be.


Not to mention the destruction that slug would do to small game ! LOL

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## Lamewolf

> Now you do remember that 2 years ago the Federal 325 was going for $5 a box at Walmart?
> 
> So now we are at the point where IF we can find crappy Federal junk .22 at any price it is cause for rejoicing?
> 
> My 10/22 will not shoot Federal ammo half the time, so if they were giving it away it would do me no good.


My 1022 shoots the Federals just fine.  In fact, I just put a new scope on it and after sighting it in I was getting half inch groups with the Federals at 50 yards.  Never had a jam or misfire with the Federal ammo and its a lot cleaner than the Remington junk out these days.  The Remington shoots good in mine too, but it sure is dirty.  And as far as price goes, I remember when you could buy 500 round bricks of any brand of 22LR for $3.99 !  Probably still got some of that fodder around the house. :Gunsmilie:

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