# General > General Guns & Ammo >  You DON'T need a battle rifle.

## Sourdough

You for sure do not need a designated battle rifle for home protection. And there is one compelling reason you do not need a battle rifle for so called "Bug'Out" survival. In your home it is clear who is the friendlies and who is not friendly, namely if they are attacking your home they are not friendly.......that was easy.

Now once you leave your home, you don't know who is friendly or who is enemy. And even if you made it to a remote area with few humans, you would really only have two choices....... (a.) Kill every human you encounter, or (b.) trust every human you encounter.

The last tool I would want to lug around is a designated "Battle Rifle". They are heavy, the ammo is heavy, the only real plus is that most are easy to field strip. For me, I would choose to trust all human encounters, and go heavy on the .22 Magnum for hunting, even here in heavy bear country.

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## glockcop

Opinions vary. Sounds like you have your plan all worked out. I on the other hand I will keep an AR close because the ammo is NOT heavy and field care is a snap.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Opinions vary. Sounds like you have your plan all worked out. I on the other hand I will keep an AR close because the ammo is NOT heavy and field care is a snap.


 Well, yeah. Were you live, the chances of needing to fend off a hord of zombies is pretty high. LOL

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## Sourdough

The real question is how do you know friend from foe.......? In war one side wears one color, the otherside wears a different color. Even the helmet is shaped differently. In a bug'out enviroment would you welcome a uniformed LEO into camp, while assuming he could be trusted and very helpful to your survival. What if someone shot the real LEO, and a bad'guy was wearing his uniform.......?

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## kyratshooter

I don't trust human encounters now!!!!  I do not have a CCW due to the heavy bear population in my area.

The only reason you do now is due to being snowed in and not having any human encounters.  

SHTF is a completely different ball game in the lower 48 SD.  We have more criminals in our county jail than AK does in their whole state.  In fact, we have more people within 50 miles of my house than AK does in the entire state.

As far as your last post goes, a uniform in a SHTF situation means nothing but more trouble.  That guy should be home taking care of his own, or he is up to no good.

THIS IS A PHILOSOPHY THREAD, NOT A WEAPONS THREAD.

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## Sourdough

> I don't trust human encounters now!!!!  I do not have a CCW due to the heavy bear population in my area.
> 
> The only reason you do now is due to being snowed in and not having any human encounters.  
> 
> SHTF is a completely different ball game in the lower 48 SD.  We have more criminals in our county jail than AK does in their whole state.  In fact, we have more people within 50 miles of my house than AK does in the entire state.
> 
> As far as your last post goes, a uniform in a SHTF situation means nothing but more trouble.  That guy should be home taking care of his own, or he is up to no good.
> 
> THIS IS A PHILOSOPHY THREAD, NOT A WEAPONS THREAD.



Well, maybe a super moderator can move it. I still want to know how you will determine friend from foe......... my point is not sell them if you own them, and is directed toward people starting to procure firearms for survival. It seems that at the very top of most survival thinking is that you need a battle rifle. My point is that most people will need a cart or wheelbarrow more than a battle rifle.

Even if I lived in the lower 48, I would most likely take a high quality bolt action .22 Magnum and three bricks of ammo over one AR-15.

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## Highhawk1948

I like and use that .22 magnum.  My faviorite.

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## Rick

What does bears have to do with CCW?

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## Winter

I consider an AR to be a 22 magnum......

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## Sourdough

> What does bears have to do with CCW?


I was wondering that myself........

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## hunter63

I like the .22 mag as well,..... seems to be the jist of all this........and depending what configuration it's in, most don't look like a EBR "Evil black rifle".

Good?...Bad?... don't know, but I'm thinking a couple  EBR's are plenty, unless of course you just happen to like EBR's.....I would prefer a long shooter to keep the threat ..."Over there" ...and a 12 ga for ."Over Here"....9 mm, big magazine , for covering your butte as you haul a$$ to ....out of here.

Can't see myself opening up on much of anybody, unless it is absolutely necessary.....Bad time to say ...oops?

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## Sourdough

> I consider an AR to be a 22 magnum......


That brought a chuckle to me........I have always wished they would create a .25 Magnum Rimfire. With bullets in the 60 gr. to 85 gr. area. But it is not likely.

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## Sourdough

I like the AR-15 platform, and I had hoped they would be a great investment, but they have not appreciated at the rete that I expected. I carry one in the winter on the chance of harvesting some wolves.

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## LowKey

I shot a borrowed AR in 5.56 for the first time a few weeks ago. A custom build. Won a frozen turkey in the process (woulda had two but the army corporal next to me won the second set up). 
I've never really ever wanted an AR but that was one sweet, very accurate unit. And wicked fun to shoot.  :Smile: 

I've come to consider them the kids' gun though. Seems all the kids have em, usually in .22, out there doing their Rambo thing. The ones that consider a black rifle and a backpack their bugout equipment...I gotta say I wouldn't trust them too far, considering the caliber of conversation on some of their forums. And certainly not a pack of them.

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## kyratshooter

> What does bears have to do with CCW?


CCW is normally obtained due to the need for self protection because one is not able to trust everyone they meet in this day and age.  

SHTF who will you trust?  Probably the same percentage our troops can trust in Afganistan or Iraq or the number of civilians we could trust in Viet Namn.

I am out of this essay in naivety.

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## Sourdough

> CCW is normally obtained due to the need for self protection because one is not able to trust everyone they meet in this day and age.  
> 
> SHTF who will you trust?  Probably the same percentage our troops can trust in Afganistan or Iraq or the number of civilians we could trust in Viet Namn.
> 
> I am out of this essay in naivety.


You make broad blanket statements, what does battle field enviroment have to do with bug out survival...? WHAT.....??? Let me ask you how many animals have you shot in the last ten years, most likely more animals than humans I would guess.

I just feel that for people new to the survival conversation, that for most they would be not ever need a battle rifle, and the $1,500.00 would be better invested in good boots, food, rain gear, etc.

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## southard

By no ccw having to with bears I am assuming he means the trucker slang for LEO. Kyratshooter is evidently in a bad mood and touchy. This is a philosophical discussion the philosophy of load out. As far as naivety goes there is none in discussing practicalness. He is being naive in thinking his pov is the only right one. Precision of aim is much better than than high rate of fire. Vietnam logistical stats are prime example less rounds fired by sniper but higher kill rate that whole infantry units. Remember you have to carry your rifle. Even if you are only in semi-auto you will still burn through ammo fast (ie. any LEO fire incident) 6 months ago in pima county AZ, 12 swat members shot something like 77 rounds in less than 2min while hitting an armed man only 22times at the far end of a narrow hall.

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## SARKY

Battle rifle.... .308 caliber(Nato 7.62x51) Why you need one! Try stopping a truck or car with a 5.56/223 AR..... aint going to happen unless you get a lucky shot. I would much rather have them coming at me on foot rather than in a vehicle. Also the vehicle gives them cover. With the .308, I can punch thru most parts of the vehicle. A .50 BMG would be better as would a MK-19 belt fed 40mm grenade launcher or perhaps the XM-25.

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## Winter

I like military rifles for SHTF scenarios, but not because of the fire rate. I like the lack of reloading.

If, and a big "if", you end up in a battle and have to shoot people, you need to maintain an eye on them. Fumbling for .30-.30 rounds in my pocket does not facilitate that. 

A rifleman does not miraculously become a "spray and pray"er just because he has alot of bullets in the magazine. Thinking it does is the same mindset that makes politicians ban them just because of the bullet count.

SD, the "(a.) Kill every human you encounter, or (b.) trust every human you encounter." adage is unsound at best. If you see someone, take the time to judge them. I could give 100 examples but I'll only give two.

If they have human ear necklaces, shoot them.

If they have children, wait till you know more.

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## Rick

Aaargh. I wasn't thinking about bears = LEO because I know he has black bears in the area so I was thinking animal kingdom. Someone else made a point that weapons would be carried open around animal bears for quick access and being from Indiana there is no difference here whether you carry concealed or open. I tend to forget that not everyone is that way. I don't think his state allows open carry.

Winter - I think you make a very real and valid point. We size up everyone we encounter in every day situations so we would be more attuned to that if things were bad for whatever reason. Even if you guys were battling an earthquake that had caused moderate damage you'd probably looking at folks a bit closer just in case they were looters, for example. I think most of us a pretty attuned to the "hair on the back of our neck" or "red flags" or whatever term you choose. We wouldn't have hung around the planet this long if we didn't have some ability in that area.

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## southard

Im not saying theyll just "spray and pray" and I do believe to a point that "happiness is a belt fed weapon" my secondary T/O weapon was a browning .50 cal.  My point was everyone is different and that in the heat of it (you name"it") a cool head and a clear eye is what matters you lose those and it dont matter if you have SAW or your willie in your hand. Well aimed shots on the right targets matter most.

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## Rick

I do believe if I had a choice I'd go with a willie. A Little Willie. 

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## BENESSE

> I just feel that for people new to the survival conversation, that for most they would be not ever need a battle rifle, and the $1,500.00 would be better invested in good boots, food, rain gear, etc.


This is something I spend a good amount of time researching--"Survival" firearms as an integral part of general preps . 
It's the only area in which I feel truly deficient due to the constraints of where I live and the fact I don't hunt. 
But common sense tells me that in a SHTF scenario (i.e. all bets are off) more is better. It's not to the exclusion of gear, food, etc, it's _in addition_. 
If this is a conversation about specific firearms, I have nothing to contribute. If it's about the idea of CYA while bugging in or out, I can only say that I prefer the widest coverage doable. It's just my approach in general.

As far as who to trust, my approach is the polar opposite of the above. Err on trusting less, and live with it. Literally. Beyond Winter's "black and white" examples (quite valid, and good starting points) lies a vast, foggy area of people who could, and have, fooled even the toughest SOBs out there. From Ted Bundy, to Bernie Madoff and everyone in between. In desperate times, people will use kids, old people, fake injuries and God knows what all, to get their way. So...the more self sufficient and inconspicuous, the better. IMHO.

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## southard

Im a big believer in evade and observe. check 'em out awhie before approaching. A situation avoided is much better than rounds down range.

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## hunter63

WOW and to think we started with a recommendation of a .22 mag, and ended up with a belt fed .50 cal and armored personnel carriers ( or is that a tank?).....in 24 posts
Bigger is better, .....More power, more power, arh, arh arh!

OK carry on......

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## BENESSE

Well, _smarter_ is better, but that's SO unrealistic.

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## Rick

Seriously, I didn't NEED a battle rifle. I WANTED a battle rifle. Actually, a bunch of them. Or is that a covey? Never mind, carry on.

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## Winter

It's also important to set your firearm needs/wants in the context of what your plans are. I will bug in so I need firearms that can defend a set position. High capacity firearms, IMO, are better.

If I'm out on patrol I'd select a firearm that takes advantage of the terrain. If I was in open brush country, like Tx, it would be a battle rifle. In dense woods like here an AR is optimum IMO. In plains and desert it may well be a bolt gun with high cap handgun for closer work.

Gotta agree with ya rick, i'm fine with anything, but I much prefer top of the line, proven equipment.

Stacking the odds in your favor is never a bad thing.

In B's situation. I don't know. What kinda firearms can you have in NYC?

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## southard

Its only unrealistic in a case by case basis. No one said anything about absolutes. Even in the wilds of Alaska there is a chance albeit microscopic of encountering into someone.

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## southard

Good point Winter. Coupled with what you said a large hunk of us will be in a group so an assortment of firearms can be utilized.

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## Rick

I think you and Winter are pretty close to the mark, Southard. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. It depends on the scenario. I'm also a bug in guy and won't be leaving unless I have no other choice. That said, if something really bad happened my first concern is defending the castle. That's a onsy, twosy, probably. Not a whole army. One or two folks come looking for a hand out and don't like the response and something escalates. But I don't see 20-30 blazing away at me. Not here, anyway. Later, when things settle down, you need something for "foraging". That means short and maneuverable. There will plenty of stocks in abandoned homes so you want to think urban encounters. 

If I have to leave for whatever reason then I need to be able to reach out further since this is cornfield country and there aren't large expanses of woods until you get into the southern or western parts of the state.

It really depends on where you are and what your intentions are. You need to adapt all your preps, including choice of weapons, to your requirements.

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## CoryD

I think the thread title should be you dont NEED a battle rifle, not that you DONT need one. A Mosin Nagant( think 91/30) was once a MBR, But thats a commonly recommmended rifle for "survival defense". A 22lr will work in a pinch. Optimal? heck no, but if thats what ya got, use it. all depends on your situation and how good you are at staying out of situations. As far as my 2 cents, if a guy wants an AR15 for a survival weapon, so be it. Best case senario, there may be extra ammo/parts for one of my/your ARs strewn about worst case I'd/you'd/we'd be dead and wont need a rifle anymore anyhow.

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## Sourdough

I have learned something in this thread, that I did not expect. For me I see starvation as the greatest risk to my survival, so I think in terms of of two or three bricks of .22 Magnum for harvesting food. 

For me I would consider the probability of being bear nibbled a thousand times higher than that of being hurt by a human.

Another point is that I see a survival event as lasting three months to ten years, and I get the impression that most people expect the time frame to be very short, and then a return to normal.

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## 2dumb2kwit

OK....I'll 'splain this for you guys. (That includes "B")
A gun is a tool.
For each job, there is a tool that is best for it.
The more tools I have, the more jobs I am prepared for.

Hope this helps. LOL :Yes:

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## Rick

> most people expect the time frame to be very short, and then a return to normal.


Count me in that group. If the civil war didn't destroy us or the Great Depression or the Dust Bowl years or the Civil Rights movement then there's not much that can truly shake the foundation of this county. We lose a bit of veneer and maybe some sheet rock here and there but the foundation remains strong. 

You discount the two things that will always buoy us. Greed and humanity. If you are a "have" then if something happens you will do whatever it takes to get back to "have". If you are a "have not" then you will do whatever you can to help those around you. Sometimes, we encounter that rare individual that is a "have" and still has humanity in their heart.

Large banks, large corporations and the federal government are true "haves" and they will work you silly to get them back to where they need to be.

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## Sourdough

Good post Rick.

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## Rick

I don't mean to point the finger (index finger) at the rich or corporations. Anything that moves me outside my comfort zone makes me want to work to put myself back there. I consider that greed as well. We all want to be happy by our own definition and we do whatever it takes to get there.

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## BENESSE

> OK....I'll 'splain this for you guys. *(That includes "B")*
> A gun is a tool.
> For each job, there is a tool that is best for it.
> The more tools I have, the more jobs I am prepared for.
> 
> Hope this helps. LOL


Thanks 2D. For once we agree.




> ...common sense tells me that in a SHTF scenario (i.e. all bets are off)  more is better. It's not to the exclusion of gear, food, etc, it's _in addition_. 
> If it's about the idea of CYA while bugging in or out, I can only say that I prefer the widest coverage doable.


I see guns as tools as well and can pretty much _guess_ what I'd need where I am if I had a choice. 
Very different from SD, although I'd never turn my nose up at SD's "tool box". Or any of y'all's, for that matter.

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## southard

When it comes down to it I wouldn't want a .22 in the *** anymore than a .308. The .22 has that ricochet factor where larger is just as likely to pass thru. A determined able individual can be a force of nature.

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## Rick

I believe that's why the Russians went with the 5.45 X 39 in the AK74. That round tends to tumble after it strikes a person creating a worse wound.

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## SemperFi

iM JUST GONNA GO WITH A .25 ACP , i dont think ill have any problems!

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## Sourdough

You know if I lived some place that I thought I could even remotely "NEED" a battle rifle, do you know what I would buy........??? I would buy a ticket to some place a hell'of lot safe, where I did not need a battle rifle.

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## Winter

SD, the days will start getting longer in 20 more days.

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## CoryD

SD, Being in alaska, arent you already there?

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## Sourdough

> SD, Being in alaska, arent you already there?


Where I live, Yes. But Alaska has some large cities, with all of the classic big city problems.

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## CoryD

Like Anchorage, Nome, Fairbanks, etc...Alaska is just like anywhere else, but colder...and with more bears..and mountains. and tundra..and...oh...nm Alaska is pretty much only like Alaska ; ) But in an attempt to get the thread back on track, If you can avoid people, generally you shouldnt need a MBR, but I wouldnt say you dont ever need one.

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## hunter63

Well I have moved passed "need" a long time ago......just doing "want".....But with discretion.

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## BENESSE

> Well I have moved passed "need" a long time ago......just doing "want".....But with discretion.


That's the gold standard, hunter. 
But if you hadn't been realistic on the "need" part you'd have no luxury of enjoying the "want" part. It's a hard thing to get through your head when you're young and immortal.

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## hunter63

I actually have a hard time plunking down my money to this day, on much of anything shootable, left over from the old days.......baby formula, rent, shoes etc.
It was a leson I learned a long time ago....If you have to save up the cash...it's tougher to pay for something with cash...cause you don't have it any more.

I don't like useing credit cards on stuff like this, I will use it for gas, ordering stuff, then paying if off at the end of the month....but you won't find me using one at Micky-D's, or at the grocery store, then its checks....I have to have it to spend it.

I think the waiting period is a good thing for me as I can spend the 3 days or what ever, thinking about if I really l want something.

I do of course carry cash in case I come across a good deal, like at gun shows and such.

Now that being said, I have come across good deals, and have purchased a lot of raffle tickets over the years.......but I look for used deals, newspaper, and such for most purchases for firearms.


It's rare that I set my sight (pun) on a particular piece, but when I do, I just save up the cash....then make my move.
Works for me.

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## SemperFi

its curious you didnt mention what constitutes a "main battle rifle" , at least your definition , because you may think an FN FAL 308 isnt and a 22-250 is , both of witch are capable hunters , but which one is the one you want to defend your property and family with ? Or are you one of those who believe the the cops are gonna protect you?

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## Rick

Did you direct that at SD? The guy who's stated it takes 2 hours for the state police to respond IF they show up? The guy that wants a kill zone on his driveway and thinks trip wires just let you know when company shows up? The only guy I know with a coaxial machine gun mounted in his cabin? The guy that wears a coat with LVOSS mounted smoke grenade launchers?

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## randyt

You can get motion detectors for the driveway. The nice thing about those over tripwires are that they are discreet. And they keep working whereas a trip wire is usually a one shot deal.

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## Rick

If he detects motion in the driveway it usually gets shot. 

(now that right there is funny)

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## CoryD

SemperFi, to be honest, I dont think SD used the term "MBR", He called them just battle rifles. Just somantics, i spose'. idk what all SD includes as a MBR othe than a AR/M16, but i include just about anything that is semi/full auto, 20+ rd mags, 22 centerfire or larger. So AR/M16, M1A/M14, AK47/74, FAL, etc. are what I consider MBRs

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## randyt

Ok Rick, let me see if I can get this straight. You're saying if you come up SD driveway you need to remain motionless? hmm LOL.

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## Sourdough

> its curious you didnt mention what constitutes a "main battle rifle" , at least your definition , because you may think an FN FAL 308 isnt and a 22-250 is , both of witch are capable hunters , but which one is the one you want to defend your property and family with ? Or are you one of those who believe the the cops are gonna protect you?


As I have stated I own a lot of battle rifles. My point was directed mostly toward people new to prepping/survival awareness. My point is that nearly all information about preparing has a battle rifle chapter right after Food & Water. Which leads newbies to assign to high of a priority to procuring a battle rifle. (Now all total I own about 16 battle rifles, so I ain't anti-battle rifle).

A .22 Magnum is loud, but about 1/3 as loud as a 5.56 NATO. I was in a room when three people got shot, and all of us were dazed and in a trance from the sound of a 3006 being lit off in a confined space. I feel that food procurement will be of a higher priority to most people than shooting other people, and that a properly placed .22 Magnum is effective for both hunting and defense. As I stated I would rather enter a SHAFT survival event with 1,500 rounds of .22 Magnum, than 200 rounds of .308 NATO (which are about the same size and weight).

I agree that firearms are "tools", However I say choose the tool with the widest range of applications. A Crescent wrench is not the perfect tool for anything, but will work and covers the widest range of applications.

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## crashdive123

> .....I was in a room when three people got shot, and all of us were dazed and in a trance from the sound of a 3006 being lit off in a confined space......


Not meaning to derail the topic......Did I ever tell you about the first house I bought?  Single guy - new sub-division with only a couple of houses occupied.  An armadillo was tearing up the new sod I installed.  I was sitting in my living room after returning from the range and was cleaning my weapons, when through the sliding glass door I saw the culprit, digging away.  I grabbed a bb gun and started pumping.  I pumped it up good.  Shot and hit the armadillo.  I think it turned it's head toward me and yawned, then went back to digging.  I grabbed the rifle I was cleaning - a Ruger, Model 1, 45/70 and slid a cartridge into the chamber.  I took aim and fired.  All I saw was a red mist.  It was about a week or so before my hearing fully returned.  Never shoot a 45/70 with 500 grain jhp in an enclosed space without hearing protection.  Just sayin'.

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## Rick

Ha! I was standing under a covered range position and the guy with me didn't have on hearing protection. I forgot I had taken mine off and popped a round of .45. He was pretty upset but I didn't hear much at all. Being deaf has it's advantages I guess. 

Back to survival rifles and which one is best.

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## COWBOYSURVIVAL

> Not meaning to derail the topic......Did I ever tell you about the first house I bought?  Single guy - new sub-division with only a couple of houses occupied.  An armadillo was tearing up the new sod I installed.  I was sitting in my living room after returning from the range and was cleaning my weapons, when through the sliding glass door I saw the culprit, digging away.  I grabbed a bb gun and started pumping.  I pumped it up good.  Shot and hit the armadillo.  I think it turned it's head toward me and yawned, then went back to digging.  I grabbed the rifle I was cleaning - a Ruger, Model 1, 45/70 and slid a cartridge into the chamber.  I took aim and fired.  All I saw was a red mist.  It was about a week or so before my hearing fully returned.  Never shoot a 45/70 with 500 grain jhp in an enclosed space without hearing protection.  Just sayin'.


Aha! Crash isn't as level headed as we all thought....

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## Rick

Back in his younger days. You know how it is.

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## crashdive123

> Aha! Crash isn't as level headed as we all thought....


Sure I am......as long as we're talking about the flat spot.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I agree that firearms are "tools", However I say choose the tool with the widest range of applications. A Crescent wrench is not the perfect tool for anything, but will work and covers the widest range of applications.


 Well said.

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## Winter

> I agree that firearms are "tools", However I say choose the tool with the widest range of applications. A Crescent wrench is not the perfect tool for anything, but will work and covers the widest range of applications.


I concur but fail to see any 22 mag as being more versatile then an AR.

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## Sourdough

> I concur but fail to see any 22 mag as being more versatile then an AR.


The loud painful crack of the AR with no hearing protection is painful, I can pack 1,500 rounds of .22 Magnum as opposed to about 350 rounds of .223 ammo. And dead is dead, I don't want to get hit with either one, and the .22 Magnum is a better all around meat gun for small game to deer & black bear size game. Just my opinion, your milage may vary, depending on the priority assigned to Food or Defense of human encounters.

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## rebel

This might be a good sidearm if you're considering a .22wmr rifle.  The pmr30 holds an impressive 30 rounds too.

http://cdn4.gunsforsale.com/media/ca...30keltec-1.jpg

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## Winter

.22 mag is better then .223rem/5.56x45 for game?

22 mag-   40 gr 	vel. 2020fps / 360 ft lbs energy at muzzle. at 100yds it's 1430/180 respectively.	

.223 rem- 55 gr ....3240/ 1282  ............. ..................................................  ...................................... at 200 yds 2362/ 675.


If your sole purpose is saving bullet weight, then just say that. LOL.

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## Beans

> The loud painful crack of the AR with no hearing protection is painful, I can pack 1,500 rounds of .22 Magnum as opposed to about 350 rounds of .223 ammo. And dead is dead, I don't want to get hit with either one, and the .22 Magnum is a better all around meat gun for small game to deer & black bear size game. Just my opinion, your milage may vary, depending on the priority assigned to Food or Defense of human encounters.


I agree with you on small game and Well Black Bear????  I'll Leave that up for someone else to try.

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## Sourdough

> .22 mag is better then .223rem/5.56x45 for game?
> 
> 22 mag-   40 gr 	vel. 2020fps / 360 ft lbs energy at muzzle. at 100yds it's 1430/180 respectively.	
> 
> .223 rem- 55 gr ....3240/ 1282  ............. ..................................................  ...................................... at 200 yds 2362/ 675.
> 
> 
> If your sole purpose is saving bullet weight, then just say that. LOL.



Allow me to point out that an arrow has nearly ZERO energy, it still kills. It is not the Velocity or the Energy, it is the shot placement. The sole purpose is NOT only to save weight, but to save one hearing, and too use just enough firearm to get the job done.

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## glockcop

> Allow me to point out that an arrow has nearly ZERO energy, it still kills. It is not the Velocity or the Energy, it is the shot placement. The sole purpose is NOT only to save weight, but to save one hearing, and too use just enough firearm to get the job done.


An arrow kills by cutting large amounts of tissue with a large surface area of blades. A bullet uses tissue deformation and tearing from it's velocity (hydrostatic shock) for it's wounding effect. The mechanics are not similar and the comparison is not a fair one. As bullets go, heavier and/or faster is better for the desired tissue disruption. Comparing a .22 mag to a .223 is yet another stretch. The .223 carries way more energy, and shoots way flatter than the best .22 mag out there. I am a huge .22 mag fan but it ain't even close to a .223 for tissue distruction. That in itself makes the .22 mag a more desireable small game getter if you plan on eating that rabbit. The .22 mag is a better small game round for it's lack of destructivenesss. The .223 is a better people/medium game round for that same virtue. For the ability to carry the largest amount of ammo in a given space, the .22 mag wins big time. The moral of the story is that some people have said that ballistically a .22mag and a .223 are practically the same. Nope, not even close. That's like saying a Fiat and a Porche is the same. Well they both do have four wheels and burn gasoline but that's about it.

----------


## Sourdough

[QUOTE=glockcop;320795] some people have said that ballistic ally a .22mag and a .223 are practically the same. Nope, not even close.QUOTE]

You will never hear me say that they are even close ballistics. I know which one I don't want to be shot in the chest with (even at 150 yards)...............................and the answer is neither.

----------


## Sourdough

I guess it really comes down to: Do you think you will be shooting dinner every other day, or engaging in a firefight every other day. I am quite sure I'll survive longer shooting dinner than you will in a gunfight. You do 30 gunfights over 60 days, and you will be a daisy if you do.

----------


## rebel

Let's end the about to get ugly scene.  It'll come down to luck depending on the event.  "could've, would've, should've". That's how it rolls.

----------


## rebel

> Let's end the about to get ugly scene.  It'll come down to luck depending on the event.  "could've, would've, should've". That's how it rolls.


Hey SD!  Oh yea.  I'm invisible. :Devil2:

----------


## Rick

The truth is, where I am, I'll probably garner more food without a firearm than with. A few snares and a couple of nets and I'll have protein. That's generally true even in winter.

----------


## randyt

Some of the cree and montagais carried one trap with them while traveling and set it out when they stopped for the night. In the morning they would check it and pull it and move on. The more traps the better no doubt but one trap and experience can be effective. When the belly button is gnawing on the backbone that experience may come quick LOL.

I think the bottom line is which will do a guy more good in the long run under most conditions, 1500 rounds of 22 magnum or 250 rounds of .223.

----------


## Sourdough

> The truth is, where I am, I'll probably garner more food without a firearm than with. A few snares and a couple of nets and I'll have protein. That's generally true even in winter.


As many gunfights as some seem to expect, I think fresh long'pork will be laying about everywhere.

----------


## Winter

I'd much rather hunt with the .223 then be in a gunfight with the .22 mag.  :Creepy:

----------


## Sourdough

> I'd much rather hunt with the .223 then be in a gunfight with the .22 mag.


I would rather be in a gunfight with my 3/4 mile shooter than a .223

----------


## Beans

> I would rather be in a gunfight with my 3/4 mile shooter than a .223


 I  am with you on that one. Distance is my friend.

----------


## Rick

I don't think it's an either or situation. Around here, I think the woods will be more dangerous than the streets. Too many people in the woods trying to harvest is bound to mean accidents and/or angry encounters. The deer will be behind cover with their heads down while the humans slug it out over hunting space.

----------


## glockcop

[QUOTE=Sourdough;320886]


> some people have said that ballistic ally a .22mag and a .223 are practically the same. Nope, not even close.QUOTE]
> 
> You will never hear me say that they are even close ballistics. I know which one I don't want to be shot in the chest with (even at 150 yards)...............................and the answer is neither.


I did not imply that you said this. I have heard people from time to time make this rediculous comparison and am most definately aware that you know the difference. Sorry if this was confused.

----------


## glockcop

> I guess it really comes down to: Do you think you will be shooting dinner every other day, or engaging in a firefight every other day. I am quite sure I'll survive longer shooting dinner than you will in a gunfight. You do 30 gunfights over 60 days, and you will be a daisy if you do.


I most definately agree with you on this one, my man. but I also agree with this one by Winter...."I'd much rather hunt with the .223 then be in a gunfight with the .22 mag."......Both very sound advice hahaha!

----------


## glockcop

> Let's end the about to get ugly scene.  It'll come down to luck depending on the event.  "could've, would've, should've". That's how it rolls.


Nah, this aint about to get ugly. We all have our opinions about what is best in any given situation. It's all in fun/entertainment. Sour, Winter, and myself have varying views on this but I think it is a subject that we all can bring a little something home with. Bottom line if I am going into harms way, I want a AR. If I'm going to fill my stew pot, I want a .22 mag. If/When things get real bad and we have to head for the hills, my. 22 mag Single Six will probably be in a cross draw, a Glock on the strong side, and the AR will be across my chest. Yep, that's alot to lug around but it just goes to show that there is NO perfect tool for everything. It just gives us excuses to buy more guns, hahaha!. Every person here will have  their own prefered set up.

----------


## hunter63

All this being tossed around, my preference for  foraging would be the lowly .22 short/.22 lr over a 22 mag......weight wise, and meat destroyed.
I can't see any advantage to a .22 mag over a .22 Lr.

.223 is more of a "destroy what you hit round", for varmints, both kinds.

----------


## glockcop

> All this being tossed around, my preference for  foraging would be the lowly .22 short/.22 lr over a 22 mag......weight wise, and meat destroyed.
> I can't see any advantage to a .22 mag over a .22 Lr.
> 
> .223 is more of a "destroy what you hit round", for varmints, both kinds.


Yes a .22 lr is a better out of a rifle than a .22 mag for not destroying as much meat on small game. But I am using a .22 mag in a revolver which essentially knocks it back down to higher end .22 lr ballistics. That is my reasoning for using a .22 mag in a pistol to begin with because I will have .22 lr ballistics from my pistol and not need to lug around another long arm. Good point to bring up.

----------


## SARKY

well if you are going to be hauling around an AR why not bring a dedicated .22lr upper for it as well?

----------


## glockcop

> well if you are going to be hauling around an AR why not bring a dedicated .22lr upper for it as well?


Because my Single Six carries alot easier than another AR upper and there is very little I can't hit at 50 yards on back with the S/S.

----------


## Sourdough

> All this being tossed around, my preference for  foraging would be the lowly .22 short/.22 lr over a 22 mag......weight wise, and meat destroyed.
> I can't see any advantage to a .22 mag over a .22 Lr.
> 
> .223 is more of a "destroy what you hit round", for varmints, both kinds.



Hunter, If I lived in the Lower 48, I agree I would choose my CZ Model 453 with it's single set trigger. Here I want the added horse-power too harvest black bears, caribou, sheep, goats, wolves, and smaller fur bearers (Fox, Coyote, etc.) with the .22 Magnum.

----------


## hunter63

I do have to agree that a .22 or .22mag make a lot more sense that a battle rifle in most scenarios, unless you are going looking for a fight.
Now if you are alone, maybe not a good idea.....bad guys thending to be cowards and bullies, to run in packs (absolutely no references or research, just experience)

Some how the paranoid part of us seems to take over, .22 good, .22 mag better, why not just go to the Ar in .223.....but ya know I really rather have a .308.....or .460...
It will never end.

So far I think my grab guns will be the Savage M24 .22mag/.20 ga, Ruger Single Six, and maybe the Ruger LCR......or just a 12 ga pump.

----------


## Sourdough

Good post Hunter. I think many confuse survival food procurement with war enviroment.

----------


## hunter63

I'm think that was your point to start with,........ but seems the battle rifle is prefered by a lot of people........or , a glock .40....45 1911...of wht use in the woods they would be, don't know, don't own either one......(here we go again?)

----------


## SARKY

Have actually defined a battle rifle? Would the new Ruger scout rifle be considered a battle rifle?

----------


## hunter63

My definition is AR, AK, or variants, or any thing "military style" with large cap magazines capable of high of rate of fire.

----------


## SARKY

Technically an AR and AK are assault weapons and NOT battle rifles. A battle rifle has to be a full length round ie .308, 30-06, .303. 8mm Mauser etc.

----------


## hunter63

> Technically an AR and AK are assault weapons and NOT battle rifles. A battle rifle has to be a full length round ie .308, 30-06, .303. 8mm Mauser etc.


OK, can't argue with that....but I guessing that most will reference an "assault weapon" (unknowingly) as their preference as a "Main Battle Rifle".
Thanks for clearing that up.

----------


## Beans

> well if you are going to be hauling around an AR why not bring a dedicated .22lr upper for it as well?


 :Idea:     Why lug/purchased a  .22 dedicated upper for your ar when you can get one of these.

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar22stcokitw.html

I have used a http://www.22lrconversions.com/atch-pg.htm for over 20 years without any problems. A couple of 30 Rd mags = loads of fun. I carry it in my vehicle BOB.

Less  then one minute from .223 to .22 lr and just as easy to convert back from .22 to .223.

 I haven't weighted mine but I think with the plastic storage container I beleive it weights less then 1 lbs

----------


## hunter63

Kinda liking that conversion, Beans....Thanks for the link.

----------


## crashdive123

Old Soldier had a similar conversion kit at the first Jamboree.  Simple to install - he said it shoots well.

----------


## rebel

> Why lug/purchased a  .22 dedicated upper for your ar when you can get one of these.
> 
> http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar22stcokitw.html
> 
> I have used a http://www.22lrconversions.com/atch-pg.htm for over 20 years without any problems. A couple of 30 Rd mags = loads of fun. I carry it in my vehicle BOB.
> 
> Less  then one minute from .223 to .22 lr and just as easy to convert back from .22 to .223.
> 
>  I haven't weighted mine but I think with the plastic storage container I beleive it weights less then 1 lbs


Thanks for the link.  Too bad they don't make it in 22 mag.

----------


## navychief1968

I'll stick with my AR-15.

----------


## Wildthang

I have always had the opinion that if I could only have 1 gun to survive with, it would be a .22 long rifle. The shorts and subsonic ammo is not loud, it is cheap, easy to pack, and it will take dear if need be! Now in a SHTF scenario, I would also want my AR as long as I had the means to transport it to my bug out location.
As far as people, I think I would try to warn them to stay away, and act accordingly after that. If a man and a women with 3 kids came along, I would most likely invite them to my site and interrogate them until I felt comfortable that they were good people with no ill intents. But if a couple of guys wandered into my territory, they would either move on or else. If they refused to move on, I would take whatever action necessary to protect my position.
In a true SHTF situation, I feel there will be very few people you can trust, but a family with kids could probably be trusted to some degree.

----------


## Rick

Yeah, sure. Then you find out the kids are pygmy ninja's and, snap, just like that you and your two live in girlfriends are toast.

----------


## SARKY

or ON toast!

I don't think anyone is arguing that a .22lr is the cats meow in a simple survival off the land scenario, it's the SHTF scenario that has the greatest difference of opinion. However, a .308 battle rifle can take any game in north america (provided you hit what you're aiming at)

----------


## BENESSE

> or ON toast!
> 
> I don't think anyone is arguing that a .22lr is the cats meow in a simple survival off the land scenario, it's the SHTF scenario that has the greatest difference of opinion. However, a .308 battle rifle can take any game in north america *(provided you hit what you're aiming at*)


I was humming along until you had to throw in that little technicality.

----------


## hunter63

Note to self, make sure I have a couple of kids with me before knocking......I'll just say I'm the grandpa?...Uncle?....yeah, good idea, hope they aren't too whinny.....

----------


## Wildthang

Well all I'm saying is it would be hard to just shoot people with kids. But I guarantee you I would watch them close for a long time if I let them in my camp!
So how would you guys handle it, inquiring minds want to know?

----------


## hunter63

As the OP involved foraging vs defense, I would suggest that maybe a discussion of security/defence/tactics be a subject of it own thread?

----------


## Rick

Hunter - Hire some midgets (little people, whatever). They won't whine.

----------


## crashdive123

Hire me (business is slow) and tell them I'm your grandson..........OK - and that I have a thyroid problem.

----------


## hunter63

I suppose having two GF's one could kinda stand out being the "misses" Du jour (spelling?), while the other is in a secure location with the MBR's laser sight on the most likely threat.......numbers will count.
Best to have a location where there is a common intrest, and back up.........Not in walking distance of a large city...if you are out side a city.

----------


## Rick

Or....they could just shove you out the front door and watch for where the puffs of smoke come from. Just sayin'....

----------


## BENESSE

With 2 girlfriends, he just doubled his chances of getting shot inside his home, never mind, outside.

----------


## lucznik

> With 2 girlfriends, he just doubled his chances of getting shot inside his home, never mind, outside.


I don't believe the danger would increase in a linear fashion... I'm guessing it would be exponential.




> If a man and a women with 3 kids came along, I would most likely invite them to my site and interrogate them until I felt comfortable that they were good people


You planning on disarming them before you start interrogating them?  How exactly would you accomplish this?  

Personally, my equipment is more targeted (pun intended) toward foraging and hunting chores.  Should I decide I need a "battle/assault" rifle later, I'll just knock off one of the mall ninjas running around and take theirs.   :Alucard:

----------


## crashdive123

Ahhhhh. Just sitting here thinking about ole Spud.

----------


## BENESSE

Who be Spud?

----------


## crashdive123

> Who be Spud?


He stopped by about three of four years ago looking for couples to join him and his survival group.  He was rather surprised that coming to an internet forum full of anonymous personalities that his request was viewed with a bit of a critical eye.  It made for light reading - clearing shooting lanes and all of the other chores that the "group" performed.

----------


## Winter

> Should I decide I need a "battle/assault" rifle later, I'll just knock off one of the mall ninjas running around and take theirs.


You may need this.
Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Rick

Somewhere in Idaho is a fellah wanting free work done close to the cemetery. Real close to the cemetery.

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## hunter63

Well, SD, where we go, swirling around the bowl, getting ready to be flushed down......."Came far, Pilgrim"............"Seems far"

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## TresMon

> I consider an AR to be a 22 magnum......


With my AR I'm 7 shots for 7 dead whitetail deer, last one was at a lazed 413 yards with a witness in a 3/4 value wind. He ran 20 yards straight towards us and crashed without another quiver.

I also got two perfect scores @ 1000yards on NRA regulation LR prone targets, with witnesses, with an AR.


Try that with your .22 mag...

Edit: originally took the statement to be against Ar's, in more reading found Winter was actually pro AR.  Umm okay. I'm good now.

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> I also got two perfect scores @ 1000yards on NRA regulation LR prone targets, with witnesses, with an AR.


 Is that with 5.56?
 If so, about how much does a 5.56 drop in 1,000 yds, and about how much energy does it have left, when it gets there?

----------


## cowboy's daughter

:Thumbup:  :Creepy:

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## SARKY

Perfect score?..... as in 0? That is a perfect score, right?

----------


## TresMon

> Is that with 5.56?
>  If so, about how much does a 5.56 drop in 1,000 yds, and about how much energy does it have left, when it gets there?


Yep, 5.56

My handload (80 grain Sierra matchkings) in my rifle required 28 3/4 moa elevation in  a DA atmosphere of  2600' (DA= Density altitude, the way pilots and long range shooters calculate and express the thickness of the air on a given day for a given shot.)

Or in simple terms It dropped 287.5 inches.

It arrived on target in 1.75 ish seconds with roughly 220 ft. lbs of energy. Which is slightly more energy than a back up .380 pistol has at the muzzle.

----------


## randyt

that's some good shooting. Where does a guy like me learn to shoot like that or at least get close to that?

----------


## TresMon

> Perfect score?..... as in 0? That is a perfect score, right?


Exactly. In NRA long range compettion you start out with a perfect score or 100%.  Each hit in the 10 ring is a −0.  each 9 ring is a −1, each 8 ring is a −2 points and so on. The x ring is a bonus.  If you shot a 100% with 8 x's and I got a 100% with 9x, I win. So yes you want every shot to be a zero, or an X better yet.




> that's some good shooting. Where does a guy like me learn to shoot like that or at least get close to that?


There's many long range shooting instructors that would be happy to help you.

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> Yep, 5.56
> 
> My handload (80 grain Sierra matchkings) in my rifle required 28 3/4 moa elevation in  a DA atmosphere of  2600' (DA= Density altitude, the way pilots and long range shooters calculate and express the thickness of the air on a given day for a given shot.)
> 
> Or in simple terms It dropped 287.5 inches.
> 
> It arrived on target in 1.75 ish seconds with roughly 220 ft. lbs of energy. Which is slightly more energy than a back up .380 pistol has at the muzzle.


 The amount of energy is about what I expected, but I'm suprised at the amount of "drop". I expected much more.

----------


## 2dumb2kwit

> Each hit in the 10 ring is a −0.  each 9 ring is a −1, each 8 ring is a −2 points and so on. The x ring is a bonus.  If you shot a 100% with 8 x's and I got a 100% with 9x, I win. So yes you want every shot to be a zero, or an X better yet.


 I have only shot at that distance one time. I was able to keep all 5 of my shots in the 10 ring.


OK...OK.....the 10 foot ring. LOL :Whistling:

----------


## hunter63

All this ballistic stuff is fine and cool and all, but really of no particular use other than KNOWING where and how your rifle shoots at the range.

Always good to know this before you decide to pull the trigger for anyone..

The OP deals with real life scenarios in a particular area and simple states the most people are not gonna need a long range sniper/tactical type firearm....as a foraging type firearm.

The advantage of the .223/5.56 in a AR (or other configuration) is high cap mags, allowing a lot of projectiles in the air in a short amount of time.......hence a lot of ammo requirements (heavy)

Personally I would never consider shooting at much of anything at 1000 yds or meters or what ever, unless it was made out of paper/metal,...Not big enough for a clean kill...hence still not my choice as a forging firearm.
JMHO

----------


## LowKey

RandyT, check into an Appleseed shoot in your area. 
http://appleseedinfo.org/index.html
They'll give you the basics on rifle marksmanship drill. You have to practice before going so you know your rifle, and if you can, practice the three shooting positions until you can assume them quickly and comfortably (they'll help you with that if you don't know em). Then you have to practice (a lot) after to sharpen the skills. Many can walk away from an Appleseed comfortable out to 600 yards. 

If you have CMP matches in your area (sanctioned or local) try hooking up with them too. Most of the guys who shoot competition are more than willing to help out a newb and won't lead them astray. At least the ones I've met doing bullseye pistol and CMP on a Garand team. Most of the guys shoot AR too. On the line they are all business though. You're on your own once you step on the competition line.

----------


## Wildthang

Yeah buddy! I love my AR as well. I have only shot it out to 500 yards but anything within that range is dead meat! :Eek2:

----------


## randyt

Thanks Lowkey, I'll be checking into that.

----------


## TresMon

> All this ballistic stuff is fine and cool and all, but really of no particular use other than KNOWING where and how your rifle shoots at the range.
> 
> Always good to know this before you decide to pull the trigger for anyone..
> 
> The OP deals with real life scenarios in a particular area and simple states the most people are not gonna need a long range sniper/tactical type firearm....as a foraging type firearm.
> 
> The advantage of the .223/5.56 in a AR (or other configuration) is high cap mags, allowing a lot of projectiles in the air in a short amount of time.......hence a lot of ammo requirements (heavy)
> 
> Personally I would never consider shooting at much of anything at 1000 yds or meters or what ever, unless it was made out of paper/metal,...Not big enough for a clean kill...hence still not my choice as a forging firearm.
> JMHO


Frist line of your quote:
Well no sir not just info to use AT THE RANGE. It's this info alone that allows Mil snipers and extended range hunters to do what they do, in the real world, in the field.

Per the rest of your quote:

I understand. Nor do I advocate using a .223 beyond whatever range it's energy drops below 500 ft'lbs of energy.  The 500 lb. mark is what Army brains figure to state the maximum effective range of a weapon. Civvy ballistic techs use the same number- 500 Ft. Lb's of energy as the lower limit to ethically and cleanly kill dear.  Obviously it's not a 1K yd. deer rifle. (per this rule of thumb it;s easily a 300 yard deer rifle.) For the record I trained with the little .223 at 1K yards for two years merely to (try) to give myself a PHD in doping thewind. I have a custom magnum of my build I use for (VERY) extreme long rage field applications.

However it appears to me you contradict yourself. From earlier in this thread:



> ....I would prefer a long shooter to keep the threat ..."Over there"


My dogma exactly.  We woodsmen know that the more multipurpose an item taken into the woods is, the greater it's value. That's why I encourage and train others in long range shooting. In my mind the average gun guy is kinda like carrying claw hammer. He know;s what the head does, but he also has a claw on it too, but does not know it's there nor how to apply it.  ANY caliber rifle 99% of guys carry into the woods can be used at much further range than they realize. Even your .22 LR- I  train with mine out to 250 yards where I can hit "melons" 9 of 10 shots, more times than not 10/10.

  If a guy teaches himself to use his (whatever) "meat for the pot" rifle at it's maximum range, now he has two tools in one. 1. A "meat for the pot rifle" and 2. a weapon to " keep the threat ..."Over there."  He now is using the whole hammer.  I teach "stand off" tactics for collapse scenario.  One guy with his .22 rifle against the "zombies" at "normal range" can not come close to being as effective for the good team as a man or men who can compently use a .22 at it's maximum range - 250ish yards to pop melons.

Lastly:




> The advantage of the .223/5.56 in a AR (or other configuration) is high cap mags, allowing a lot of projectiles in the air in a short amount of time.


Thats only the "head" side of the AR claw hammer.  Since I can CONSISTENTLY engage zombie size targets at 700 yards and beyond- I have *3* rifles in one.  1. a meat for the pot rifle. 2. a high volume of fire defensive rifle. 3. and a Long range stand off rifle.  I can hold off the zombies as far as the eye can see in _most_ terrians here E. of the missippii river while my buddies and loved one's scurry safely away.

I suggest you use the whole hammer. Regardless of the size & color of hammer you prefer.

I think we believe and agree of the same things Mr. Hunter. Thanks for your input & various posts. I like them.

----------


## Sourdough

> With my AR I'm 7 shots for 7 dead whitetail deer, last one was at a lazed 413 yards with a witness in a 3/4 value wind. He ran 20 yards straight towards us and crashed without another quiver.
> 
> I also got two perfect scores @ 1000yards on NRA regulation LR prone targets, with witnesses, with an AR.
> 
> 
> Try that with your .22 mag...
> 
> Edit: originally took the statement to be against Ar's, in more reading found Winter was actually pro AR.  Umm okay. I'm good now.



If it has to be tipped over at 1,000 yards, I'll just practice E&E. Second option would be my .300 Ultra Mag. with it's 12X optic.

----------


## hunter63

I don't have a problem with long range shooting, just not a small rifle at game.

Everyone should know how, get the training for technique, know your firearm, and practice a lot.

I'm not about to argue or even discuss personnel preferences, you stated yours, I stated mine... even though you kinda took my statement out on context, particularly with some one that is proficient at 1000 yds....LOL.

----------


## TresMon

> If it has to be tipped over at 1,000 yards, I'll just practice E&E. Second option would be my .300 Ultra Mag. with it's X optic.


I understand sir but you'd have to agree that



> I can hold off the zombies as far as the eye can see in _most_ terrians here E. of the missippii river while my buddies and loved one's scurry safely away.


Is a valid skill that is good to have on behalf of your loved ones. THEN you can E & E!

Mr. Hunter I'm with ya sir and sorry you felt I took you out of context.

----------


## Rick

Fellahs, I'm the monkey that's throwin' the hammer around the cage just because I can. If I hit something out to a couple of hundred yards I'm usually honkin' the horn and tellin' folks about it all the way home. Ranges around here only go out to 100 yards anyway so all my battles will be held at that range even if I have to walk over to the enemy's line and ask them to scoot closer a couple of yards.

----------


## Sourdough

> I understand sir but you'd have to agree that
> 
> 
> Is a valid skill that is good to have on behalf of your loved ones. THEN you can E & E!
> .



Snivle.......snivle......"I don't have any Loved ones........ :Sad:

----------


## TresMon

> Snivle.......snivle......"I don't have any Loved ones........


I have heard there are not many ladies in AK.  It was also related to me the if you have a woman and make her mad that it's not divorce up that way rather "you loose your turn" at least for a while.

From the pics I have seen there looks like there's plenty of wide open spaces in the tundra. How far have you stretched your 300 RUM out to?

----------


## Rick

You, uh, do know there are LADIES on here from AK, right? My only fear is the shock wave may  reach all the way to me. Well, it's been nice knowing you, Tresmon. However short it was.

----------


## hunter63

Oh, Oh....this might be bad......

----------


## Rick

Might be? The only person I wouldn't want to tangle with worse than 1st is Winnie......or B.......Oh, or Nell.....or BornThatWay....or....Oh, it's gonna be baaaaaaaad.

----------


## crashdive123

Bad indeed.  Anybody want to escape to Florida to watch the carnage?

----------


## LowKey

Popcorn - check.
Chair - check.
Bullet proof glass - check.

----------


## TresMon

> You, uh, do know there are LADIES on here from AK, right? My only fear is the shock wave may  reach all the way to me. Well, it's been nice knowing you, Tresmon. However short it was.


Umm I missed something.  ??  Okay yes there are Ladies on here. Check... there's lots and lots of ladies in the lower 48. Makes sense. 
I never been to AK... and was _told_ there were not many ladies there at all. ??  That it's _predominatly_ a male population.   ???    Nice knowing me?  I'm really lost.  And it was related to me that the marriage/divorce/marriage again divorce again culture of the lower 48 states is well a lower 48 thing.  

???  somebody draw me a picture?  I have never been there.  Why do I feel like the naive juvenile that doesn't get the joke?

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## LowKey

TresMon, could you stand a little farther away. Over there. No further. I don't want to get spattered when the ladies ON HERE get to you.

LOL.

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## TresMon

> TresMon, could you stand a little farther away. Over there. No further. I don't want to get spattered when the ladies ON HERE get to you.
> 
> LOL.


Is the man to woman ratio in AK a taboo or something?????????? Or is the ratio just like in the 48 and someone was pulling my leg?

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## Rick

I think it was the "loose your turn" comment that got you killed. 

DEAD MAN WALKING!

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## TresMon

> I think it was the "loose your turn" comment that got you killed. 
> 
> DEAD MAN WALKING!


Why is that?  I mean I live here in the south and I have "lost my turn." Back when I was a young fella me and a girlfriend would get in a fuss and break up- "loose a turn" as I was told it was said in AK. Then we'd get back together. It's just what silly young'uns do.  The fella That told me that term, Pete, (said he was from a spec of a town called Mosquito Lake, AK) also said some other sayings I had never heard. He had some unique sayings. Neat guy. I helped him change his tire on his truck. That's why we ended up jawing.
Gosh that was years ago I was a pup.

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## Winter

They are just messing with you Tresmon.

Some time after WWII, men became concerned over women's opinion and started to fear their wrath.

Not me, just look at all the elected officlas after womens suffrage.




(hope I drew some of your fire Tresmon. "I'm up, I'm moving, I'm down")

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## BENESSE

. . . . . . Attachment 7176. . . . . . . . :Sneaky2:

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## Wildthang

Well I am not afraid of women in the least. I grew up with 6 sisters, and am now living with 2 girlfriends. As long as they know who's boss everthing is OK. My current girls are very laid back and sweet, but my sisters were meaner than snakes! But they taught me a lot of valuable lessons on getting along with women. 
These hard learned secrets are all mine and I am not sharing them with any of you guys............buahahahahaha!

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## Rick

Not afraid. That's because they aren't reading what you're writing. Not afraid, indeed.

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## crashdive123

Steps slowly away from chat.

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## TresMon

What have I done?? :no way: 

Um.. quick.... uh-

HEY what do yall think about having a bayonet for your .22 in case of a zombie attack?!?!?!?

Hello?  anyone?  Nothing, nothing but crickets chirping. uh-oh.

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## canable

This has been fun to read.------Sure lost track of -- whatever the fallout was on need for battle rifle?
I can`t help tellin ya`ll, I carry a cast net , two 4" jaw traps , one 380 hideout , one over under 20 gauge/22.  I figure I will have more luck finding 22 ammo than any of the "exotics".  Got a real good water filter, got a fire starter that I shave magnesium off of  and I want ya`ll to know, that is the easiest and best way to go for fire tech. I carry five knives. got all needs covered. My wife came across the same idea about - how much weight are you carrying-- We weighed my kit and it comes to 37 pounds. Them Kim talked me into two inflatable bladders for flotation. My kids are grown and gone. If me and Kim ain`t fightin when the crap happens , well , I`ll be very capable of taking care of us. If we are fighten then I`m goin to be some kinda pissed for her makin me go to all the extra.---------- And she will pay with many denied dreams .             jude24&25
                                       stay alert Canable

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## Wildthang

> Not afraid. That's because they aren't reading what you're writing. Not afraid, indeed.


I do not fear women in the least! I told my girls that when they start becoming a pain in the rear, it is time to go. I do not put up with arguing and fighting, it's that simple. We are not married so they can be put on the road with no problems.
But in their defense, they are very sweet polite girls, and I think they hate fighting as much as I do, so we really never have those kinds of problems.

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## hunter63

> I do not fear women in the least! I told my girls that when they start becoming a pain in the rear, it is time to go. I do not put up with arguing and fighting, it's that simple. We are not married so they can be put on the road with no problems.
> But in their defense, they are very sweet polite girls, and I think they hate fighting as much as I do, so we really never have those kinds of problems.


Just remember, ya gotta sleep sometime....more difficult with two......carry on.

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## Sparky93

I just thought of something, if after a SHTF situation you are savaging for ammo. If you find ammo I would think a gun of the same caliber would be close, because who would take the gun and leave the ammo....

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## Rick

The guy that took the gun and all the ammo he could carry.

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## kyratshooter

Look out for a big figure 4 deadfall!

That ammo may be bait.

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## hunter63

> Look out for a big figure 4 deadfall!
> 
> That ammo may be bait.


Shush, don't tell them....That....

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## BENESSE

> I do not fear women in the least! I told my girls that when they start becoming a pain in the rear, it is time to go. I do not put up with arguing and fighting, it's that simple. We are not married so they can be put on the road with no problems.


Glad y'all found each other. Win/win all around.
I don't get it, but then I live on another planet...I  come in peace.

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## Sourdough

> Look out for a big figure 4 deadfall!
> 
> That ammo may be bait.


Beaver makes better bait. Beaver really is the best bait for trapping. Beaver is the food of choice for sled dogs also.

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## Sparky93

> Look out for a big figure 4 deadfall!
> 
> That ammo may be bait.


LMAO!!! Had not thought of that lol!

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