# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  The ALICE Thread

## sgtdraino

Since the "Internal or external frame pack" poll thread has become rather ALICE-intensive:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...?t=4714&page=2

...and since we don't appear to have a thread just for ALICE-related stuff... well, now we do! Anything ALICE-related, hopefully you'll be able to find it here.

ALICE stands for All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment, a system adopted by the US military in 1973, which has by now mostly been phased out in favor of the MOLLE system. ALICE on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-pur...ying_Equipment

Here is a link to the official manual for ALICE, graciously provided by Rick:

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_a...licemanual.htm

And here is another site with an extensive amount of information on ALICE, as well as a lot of pictures of different parts of the system, and different variations:

http://www.prc68.com/I/ALICE.shtml

Of course, ALICE is probably best known for two backpacks: The Medium and the Large, both designated "LC-1." The medium pack can be used with or without an external frame, whereas the large is only designed to be used with the frame. The packs look very similar, except that the large is significantly bigger, and has an additional three small equipment pockets located over the center external pocket.

Medium LC-1:

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Large LC-1:

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Contrary to logic, there is no such thing as a "Small LC1," the proposed small version was rejected by the military when they adopted the system. You may find "Small ALICE packs" being sold from various sources, but these are not real ALICE packs, it's probably some made-in-China thing.

Extra pouches and equipment can be attached to ALICE items via the use of ALICE clips:

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The ALICE system utilizes an aluminum frame:

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To which can be attached one or two aluminum shelves, for carrying extra-heavy items:

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This external aluminum frame is probably the chief complaint about the ALICE system. You will hear folks say that the frame "has no suspension." The idea with a frame backpack, is to distribute weight off of your shoulders, down to your waist. Properly-fitted, most of the weight should be on the kidney belt cinched around your waist. The shoulder straps of the pack are only there to keep the pack upright, against your back. To accomplish this, the tops of these shoulder straps must be "suspended," attached to a point that is *above* the top of your shoulders. Otherwise, you will feel these straps pulling down on the top of your shoulders, causing a lot of stress and fatigue.

Most modern external frames are quite tall, rising up behind your head and providing attachment points for suspending the shoulder straps. The ALICE frame is rather short in comparison, because (sensibly) the military did not want to restrict a soldier from inclining his head, so that he could look up, or potentially hit the dirt and fire from a prone position. The problem is, for many folks, this means that the ALICE frame does not rise high enough to properly suspend the shoulder straps. For these folks, carrying a loaded ALICE pack for any extended period of time can be a really miserable experience.

On a related note, there are also stories of frames breaking, or (especially) popping rivets, particularly coming from Airborne troops who have jumped with the pack. Some modern frame packs use frames that are somewhat flexible, made of various plastics instead of metal, which allow them to flex with the body and absorb shock. The aluminum ALICE frame does not flex at all, so it either holds, or it breaks.

The two greatest strengths of the ALICE system, are its durability (in spite of the frame problems, the ALICE system as a whole is very VERY tough, generally regarded as tougher than MOLLE), and the ease at which it can be modified. There are lots of popular modifications, and many folks mix ALICE and MOLLE together to create a hybrid system. ALICE parts can often be found very cheaply, making it a very cost-effective system to build and modify.

One popular modification for the ALICE pack, is dubbed the "Hellcat" mod, invented by Enforcer. He goes into detail about it here:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...t=47472&page=2

It's basically an ALICE pack and frame mated to a MOLLE suspension system (shoulder straps) and kidney belt, with a MOLLE Modular Sleep System carrier slung on the bottom. The MOLLE straps can be adjusted up and down, making the pack more adaptable for people of varying heights. Some folks have had a lot of success with this mod, making the pack much more comfortable to carry. I think perhaps this mod may be more effective for shorter people. I tried it myself, but it did not work for me. I am 5'10", and for me the suspension was not sufficient. However, here is Enforcer himself with some words of encouragement:




> You mention that you've been unable to get proper adjustment being 5'10; I'm 5'11 and have had no trouble. I mention this because height is really not the issue. It is torso length. A 6'2" person can have a shorter torso length than a 5'10" person. You may want to correct your height limit regarding the Hellcat in your "wilderness" post because the ALICE frame w/ molle suspension is vastly superior in attaining the broadest range of torso length than the "euro-flex". 
> 
> The limitation w/ EF frame is the same as the MOLLE; the slots provided for the straps on the frame. There are only so many. Thus limiting the range to  approx 4 inches of adjustment. The ALICE frame will allow adjustment of just under 8 inches or between 13-20.5" of torso length.
> 
> As I mentioned in my original Hellcat post; this mod might not be for everyone. That statement is certainly holding true. For your readers education be sure to emphasize "torso length"  and the standards established by most pack mfg for pack fit and adjustment. These are laid out in the REI guide I previously posted.


Enforcer is referring to these two very handy links:

http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/arti...+hip+size.html

http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/arti...sting+fit.html

The next thing I went for, was a footnote I found on the Zen Backpacks site, which has a lot of good educational stuff about backpacks in general:

http://zenbackpacking.net/Backpacks.htm

On that site, I spotted the following quote:




> Outdoor Products - produces a simple and economical EnduroFlex plastic framed pack that  works surprisingly well.  This is the same frame (with a different company name) as Coleman's Ram-Flex synthetic frame used in their old Peak 1 packs, used by other outdoor companies (such as custom hunting equipment companies) and by individual US airborne troops needing a frame that can withstand repeated impacts.  The smaller version of this frame can be easily modified to be used in packs designed for the US Military ALICE frame.  A pack with the small frame version can be purchased for less than US$ 40.


I then did some more research, and read about the Airborne's experience with both ALICE and MOLLE. With ALICE, their aluminum frames were popping during jumps. With the MOLLE CFP-90, the overall poor construction of the packs were causing them to tear up during jumps.




> I was with the 101st Abn Div (AASLT) when the CFP-90 was fielded-(I never used it)-saw lots of them tear, snap, break shoulder straps and shear adjusting screws for the frame-the 101st turned in CFP-90s and went back to ALICE-

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## sgtdraino

As previously mentioned, the Airborne ended up going with Coleman's Ram-Flex frame (now called EnduroFlex, and made by Outdoor Products), which could be easily modified for use with the tough ALICE LC-1. I decided to try that route myself, and purchased an Outdoor Products "Dragonfly" pack (the smallest pack with the EnduroFlex frame) off of ebay for about $22.

Once I got it, I basically just took a dremel tool and cut down the top of the frame until it was narrow enough to fit into the frame pocket on the ALICE (this was the scariest part, as I knew there was no going back). Once that was done, I swear it's almost like the thing is made to work with an ALICE, as well as an MSS sleep system carrier bag for the bottom, and the MOLLE kidney belt. All the attachment points are very intuitive. "Oh! That can go on there! Perfect!" I was even able to use my original ALICE straps, which I like better than the MOLLE straps (those pinch my neck a little) or the stock straps the Dragonfly came with. There are three different heights at which you can attach the kidney belt to the frame, and I had plenty of leeway. I ended up using the "middle" point. I swear, I think this thing is perfect. Of course a long hike is the real test, but wearing it around fully-loaded just feels "right," a lot more "right" than the original frame ever did.

Here's what I did...

Hopefully these pictures aren't too friggin huge. If they are, let me know and I will make them smaller.

This is the only picture I could find of the original unmodified Enduroflex frame:

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And here is how I shaped the top of it with a Dremel tool, to fit into the pocket of the ALICE. I know it looks thin on the edges from this angle, but it's really not as bad as it looks. from the side, that frame is pretty thick:

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Here's the pack up on the frame:

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And here's a close-up view of how I've attached my original ALICE straps to the frame:

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Here's a full view of the back of the pack:

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Here's a close-up view of the MOLLE Sleep System carrier bag, and how it's attached. Note that with this set-up, the MSS carrier is mounted with the BOTTOM against the frame. You'll see why in a sec.

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Here's a side-view showing how the MOLLE belt is attached, as well as how the bottom of the MSS carrier is attached. Note that there are three different heights at which you can attach the MOLLE belt, I chose to feed it through the "M" and "S" slots:

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Here's another side-view of how the MSS carrier is attached, from a slightly different angle:

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Note that the metal clips at each corner of the bottom of the MSS carrier go through those slots, and secure the bottom of the bag to the frame perfectly.

Here's how high up the pack comes, with the MOLLE belt attached where it's at. I could make it ride even higher, but I think this height is a good compromise:

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Here's a side-view showing how the suspension on the shoulder straps works:

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Lastly, here's an angled view, showing detail on the attachment points of the straps:

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> A couple of questions on the Alice. I see a couple of zippered pouches on each side. What are those?


I'm glad you asked me that! Those two long zippered pouches on either side are "Alice Pack Add-a-Pouches" from Barre Army/Navy:

http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/shared/St...unt2=881629586

From the menu on the left, click on "Military Equipment," then "Military Backpacks," then you will see an option for "Alice Pack Add-a-Pouch." They sell three kinds, long ones (for the sides), short ones (for the sides or back areas), and a square one that can attach on top, over the main compartment flap. I just got two of the long ones, so far they seem pretty great. Some folks also like to attach MOLLE hydration bladder carriers to the sides of their ALICE packs, they have a similar profile to the long Add-a-Pouch. Easy to find those on ebay.

I did put an extra pouch on top of the pack, but instead of the Add-a-Pouch, I used an old surplus ALICE butt pack, which I think would hold a lot more.




> Did you modify the Alice to accept the Fastex buckles or did it come that way.


That's a mod on my part, though all I really did was cannibalize the Fastex buckles from other items, and attach them to the pack using extra strapping. I didn't have to permanently alter the pack, although it is a pretty popular mod to do that.




> It's hard to tell because the pics don't give a real good idea of how big the pack is but, I'm pretty sure that pack would carry all the food and gear I need, except for water, for a week or more.


Oh yes, I would think so. My setup uses a Medium ALICE, but a Large could be used in its place. The military intends for both the Medium and the Large to be big enough to accomodate a "subsistence load," i.e. sufficient supplies for a soldier to survive in the field for an extended length of time. Plus, the MOLLE MSS carrier slung underneath adds a LOT more carrying capacity.




> My frame is not exactly the same as the one pictured, but I think it might still work.


Take another look at the Zen Backpacking link:

http://zenbackpacking.net/Backpacks.htm

Scroll down a bit, and you'll see an EnduroFlex frame pictured that looks different than mine. Is that it?

I suppose you'll just have to measure the frame, and the pocket, and see if you think you can cut enough off to fit it in there, without compromising the integrity of the frame. Let us know how it goes!

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## RangerXanatos

I think you deserve some of the green stuff.   :Thumbup:

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## hunter63

Very good, "Everything you ever wanted to know about Alice"

Lots of thought, experience, and work went in to that tutorial, thanks for your effort.
Atta boy your way........

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## finallyME

Well, you did a great job on the frame and making it the way you wanted.  It also looks like it fits you well.  But, I don't know if I like it completely.  Why did you ditch the original suspension on the frame?  I see why you cut the frame, it makes sense.  I just think that there might be a better solution.  Maybe sewing straps to the ALICE bag, and cutting off the now unnecessary top padding.  However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  If you like it, and it works, then I am happy for you.

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## sgtdraino

Thanks guys!  :Smile: 




> However it still looks like what I call a large "Day" pack.





> It's hard to tell because the pics don't give a real good idea of how big the pack is


Here's a couple more pictures which will hopefully give a better idea of size. This is with every compartment stuffed full to capacity, mostly with just clothing for purposes of taking the pictures. With all the compartments stuffed full of clothes, total pack weight is about 38 lbs. Also, for size reference, keep in mind that I am about 5'10". Here you go:

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> Why did you ditch the original suspension on the frame?


I wanted to use as much original ALICE stuff as possible, for sentimental reasons. Plus, the ALICE straps just seem more robust, and also have a quick-release capability that the commercial suspension does not have.




> I see why you cut the frame, it makes sense.  I just think that there might be a better solution.  Maybe sewing straps to the ALICE bag, and cutting off the now unnecessary top padding.


I wanted to avoid permanently modifying the ALICE bag as much as possible, again for sentimental reasons. But also, I like the way the Medium ALICE can convert to a frameless pack, for day hikes away from camp. The pocket setup allows this conversion to be pretty quick, and pretty simple. I also feel like that beefy pocket would be less likely to fail than individual straps, but perhaps that thinking is erroneous.

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## finallyME

Those pictures say a lot.  I think your choice to use a medium instead of a large is a good one.  The center of balance is much closer to you.  Looks good.

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## Beo

I have a Large Alice Pack or Ruck Sack, but I don't use a carrier, all I have is a large pice of rattan wood in the top shoulder piece. I like the ruck or backpack to form around my body, just a left over from my Army days.
Beo,

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## Rick

One things for certain, medium or large, they can hold a LOT more than I want to carry.

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## sgtdraino

Updated Post #1 with some more handy info!

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## SSG HAWK

Nice job, Sgt. 
Surprising there aren't a bunch of additional post here. You certainly started things out very well.

Here we are about a year later and the Gen 4 Molle Frame is pretty cheap and thanks to Enforcer's (AR15.com) Bobcat mod (search "Hellcat") I just mounted a Large Alice to a 1603 Gen 4 Frame.  I made some other mods. I will try to take and post some pictures. 

Thanks for a great start.

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## carbean

ALICE rocks!  Wore some components to the range today.

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## SSG HAWK

Still have not had a chance to post my pictures of mounting the large Alice on a 1603 frame using Enforcer's Bobcat mod on this forum. I did post pictures on the survivaist forum where  I (rather the wife) have figured out how to post them.  I did a static load test and put 6 gallons and 10 2 liter bottles of water in the pack hanging from it's straps weaaring the 1603 frame; I calced that out at about 95 pounds of load; a whole lot wore than I will be carrying.

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## SSG HAWK

I have PM'ed Sgtdraino with out success. Does anyone know if he is deployed? I truely hope he is well.

I have just helped come up with a new mod on the molle waist belt that I use on both my medium Alice on an Alice frame (Enforcer's Hellcat)and my large Alice that is on a gen 4 1603 Molle frame (primarily based on Enforcer's Bobcat mod). In truth, I supplied the problem and the material and my super star creative shoe cobler supplied the answer. He always does great work and seems so happy to have the pack related challenges that I bring him versus just working on another pair of shoes. It probably does not hurt that I truely appreciate his quality, inexpensive work and always tell him so. Most shoe customers that come in while I am there just give him grief about his charges when I don't know how he gets by on these prices.

The Molle Waist belts apparently are made for troopers with waists as little as 29 inches, which is about what I wore when I was in basic a 100 years ago. Consequently, the belt left a lot of my old belly uncoverred and thus was not very comfortable. I also did not think 8 (4 per side) Molle strap attachments points on the belt was suficient. I took one like new and one pretty ratty Molle waist belt to my shoe cobler and asked what he could do. 5 minutes latter of cutting up the ratty belt with his super sharp leather knives he was measuring me for the finished product and was going to add extension pieces from the ratty belt to the like new belt; belly coverred, 8 more Molle points all for $20 plus tax.

Mission accomplished.

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## SSG HAWK

Another Alice Mod: additional outside pockets. 

Some how I have about 5 or 6 more Alice medium packs than I need. Probably has to do with each time I buy something at a gun show and need somethink to carry it in the $5-10 old medium or large Alice with the Beat to Sxxt pads and belt are too good to pass up. I also have some new or like new Alice packs that probably have something to do with taking Ambien and the existence of a paypal account . Those who have taken AMbien probably know what I mean.

In any event I thought how easy it would be to cut the external pockets off of a medium Alice, melt the edges with a lighter so they do not fray, tape them about where I want them on my large Alice (ie: above the existing outside pockets) and then have my trustee shoe cobler sew around the two outboard sides and bottom (ONLY and not across the top)of the medium Alice pockets THUS LEAVING ACCESS to the large Alice mag pouch pockets.In other words he sewed a large U that includes the three pouches from yje old medium Alice. This he did for $15-20. In addition to allowing access to the original mag pouches we have created a handy good size admin pocket between the new pockets and the old mag pouches. To make sure anything I put in this admin pocket stays in, I  then installed a couple gromment in the new pockets and the top edge of the large Alice that for paracord and a cordlock.  I may also add some snaps so that the pocket can be completly closed but that is for another day.  

Six good size pockets with ITW closures plus the mag pouches plus an admin pouch. Makes organization and fast access a breeze.

  But as Rick says: the Large Alice will hold a whole lot more than we care to carry.

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## Rick

Sgtdraino is LEO now. He bops in from time to time so he'll answer on his next visit. He's pretty good about that. 

You have a good cobbler. Hang on to him. In the event that you need to add some extra for all that muscle we put on in front you can acquire extensions for just about any designed belt. It doesn't matter what configuration the buckle is there is an extension that will fit it. Here's an example. 

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## SSG HAWK

Another Alice/Mole Mod: The Alice top flap.

I have never liked the small velcrow closed opening to the standard Alice top flap. I suppose there was a reason they made it that small but it is a big pain. Just to see what they were like, I orderred a used Molle II Main pack from ebay for some small number that I have forgotten(The freight was undoubtedly greater than the pack cost.). Only problem was that it was Woodland Camo. The pack was nice with all of it's Molle attachement points but was pretty heavy when compared to Ms. Alice. The Molle main pack flap was outstanding. Sounds like another project for the "Super Shoe Cobler". I carefully removed the nice Flap from the Molle Main Pack and the original flap from the large Alice. I safetypined/taped the Molle flap where I wanted it on the Alice.  For like $10-15 the cobler sewed it on so it will never come off. 

And now I have a pack flap with plenty of room inside it for my raingear and other essentuals and have a much bigger flap to help hold down my sleeping gear so it does not have to hang on the bottom of the Alice and kick my rear end and legs. 

But now I have an OD (yellowed)Alice with Woodland: Molle shoulder straps, Molle waist belt, Molle sustainment pouch (only one that I use for my big boy thermos on the way to the Hunting Blind since I do not want it inside the pack and it won't fit the other pockets)and now a Woodland flap. Next project will be seeing what I can do with Rit Dye to improve the color of the large Alice (that was old and yellow) and to tone down the Woodland items.  

Now if we can only get this posting picture thing figured out.

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## SSG HAWK

07 17 2011
I tried that "muscle" thing on my wife and she reminds me that there aare atleast 70 pounds of me that she did not marry 40 some years ago.




> Sgtdraino is LEO now. He bops in from time to time so he'll answer on his next visit. He's pretty good about that. 
> 
> You have a good cobbler. Hang on to him. In the event that you need to add some extra for all that muscle we put on in front you can acquire extensions for just about any designed belt. It doesn't matter what configuration the buckle is there is an extension that will fit it. Here's an example. 
> 
> Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Winter

Hahaha, alot of funny in this thread.

My Med ALICE ruck has a CFP90 "belt" on it. It works great.
When I was playing Army, I got a ruined CFP90 and stole the shoulder straps and the waist pad and modded my ALICE lg. Both made those RTO LRS rucks easier to carry.

Good thread Men.

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## Rick

You know, Hawk, that cobbler at $20 a mod has made about $650 on that $15 Alice. I'll bet he would have made you one from scratch to your specs for about $250. Of course, there'd be no fun in that. It's not about the money. I mean, look at bass fishing.

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## garethw

Hi there
I've been messing around with the ALICE/MOLLE hybrid pack since I first saw it on this and other forums. After using a large pack without a MSS carrier, I've finally gone for the medium with the carrier. Mostly beacause it is less voluminous and doesn't bulge out from your back as the large pack does.

Front view of the finished pack.

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A side view with frame and sleep system carrier in place.

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The DEI 1606AC frame makes a big difference, lighter, flexible and fits the MOLLE stuff better.

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I hook up the shoulder straps just like on the Aluminium frame, using only the lower set around the frame, and tucking the upper straps in behind. With the loads lifters, and central webbing, they are very solidly attached.

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I added a webbing loop to make a handle on the top... an essential addition for me.

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Here you see the MSS carrier cinched up to the pack. There is absolutely no bounce when fitted like this.

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I copied the way the MOLLE ll pack has its fastex buckles fitted. I can thread these through the first set of loops on the front of the MSS carrier to cinch it to the main pack.


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The MSS carrier is fitted with 4 toggles to attach to the MOLLE frame. As the DEI frame is shorter I used just the top set to attach it to the 1606 frame. Like this is is held firmly to the frame, and doesn't come undone when you loosen the straps. The webbing straps ( you can se one on the right of the image), go around and under to compress the carrier when its full.

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So there you go. After several attempts with different configurations I've got the pack modified how I want it. It carries well, has enough space for all my gear, and has a retro look that I like. I was never a big fan of the way the original Alice carried, but this is a totally different beast.

cheers
Gareth

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## sgtdraino

> I have PM'ed Sgtdraino with out success. Does anyone know if he is deployed? I truely hope he is well.


Whoops, sorry dude, somehow I missed this!




> 5 minutes latter of cutting up the ratty belt with his super sharp leather knives he was measuring me for the finished product and was going to add extension pieces from the ratty belt to the like new belt; belly coverred, 8 more Molle points all for $20 plus tax.





> In other words he sewed a large U that includes the three pouches from yje old medium Alice. This he did for $15-20. In addition to allowing access to the original mag pouches we have created a handy good size admin pocket between the new pockets and the old mag pouches.


lol. You should call your pack "Frankenstein!" I gotta see some pictures of this thing!




> Sgtdraino is LEO now. He bops in from time to time so he'll answer on his next visit. He's pretty good about that.


Lest there be any misunderstanding, I've never been military. LEO all the way. Sorry haven't been as good about bopping in as I have been in the past!




> I carefully removed the nice Flap from the Molle Main Pack and the original flap from the large Alice. I safetypined/taped the Molle flap where I wanted it on the Alice.  For like $10-15 the cobler sewed it on so it will never come off.


Want!!! Pictures!!!




> Now if we can only get this posting picture thing figured out.


Step 1: Upload your pictures to a hosting site such as photobucket.com.
Step 2: Copy the URL for the picture you have uploaded which you want to post here.
Step 3: In your post here, click the little "image" button. It looks like a little picture of a tree.
Step 4: Paste the URL from your picture into the box that pops up.

That's it!




> Hi there
> I've been messing around with the ALICE/MOLLE hybrid pack since I first saw it on this and other forums.


Cool looking pack! Any chance we can see how it hangs on you?

Also, I know a Gareth W., but he lives in the UK. You aren't perchance the same guy are you?

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## garethw

> Cool looking pack! Any chance we can see how it hangs on you?
> 
> Also, I know a Gareth W., but he lives in the UK. You aren't perchance the same guy are you?


I'll try and do some shots.. not too easy by yourself though!

Doubt I'm the Gareth W you know, I've lived in France now since the mid 80's.

Cheers
Gareth

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## crashdive123

Nice looking modifications Garethw.

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## Rick

That's a nice looking mod. The important thing is it works for you. I like the Molle shoulder straps and waist strap hands down over the ALICE straps but the Molle pack is huge. This takes advantage of the best of both worlds. Nice job.

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## lucznik

> Take another look at the Zen Backpacking link:
> 
> http://zenbackpacking.net/Backpacks.htm
> 
> Scroll down a bit, and you'll see an EnduroFlex frame pictured that looks different than mine. Is that it?
> 
> I suppose you'll just have to measure the frame, and the pocket, and see if you think you can cut enough off to fit it in there, without compromising the integrity of the frame. Let us know how it goes!


I just saw this today.  Sorry.  

Yes that frame in the picture you linked looks like the one I have.  Mine came from Fieldline as part of their "Dwight Schuh" line.  I like the frame; hate the pack.

I haven't tried any modifications yet but, I'm really getting tempted as none of the packs I have nor any of the ones that I have seen seem to be quite right.  

My only concerns with the Alice Packs as I see them in your pics are:

1.  There seems to be a lot of extra material there and I'm concerned about how heavy they might be.  My 3-day hunting gear weight is currently down to under 20 lbs.  To carry it all in a pack that itself adds an additional 1/3 - 1/2 that weight would seem a bit counter productive.

2.  They definitely do not appear to be made of quiet material. I'm a real quiet freak when it comes to my time in the backcountry.  I absolutely hate beeps, squeaks, crinkles, or other noises coming from my gear.

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## Rick

I've solved the noise problem. Just go deaf. You won't hear a thing.

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## Sarge47

> I've solved the noise problem. Just go deaf. You won't hear a thing.


Huh?  What?  Speak up!   :Innocent:   :Scared:

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## Scouter17

This is an awesome thread.  Lots of details.  I'm slowly modifying my medium alice.  I have just added the side release buckles to the main straps, added a couple molle USMC First Aid pouches on the lower sides, next purchase will be the sleep system carrier and thinking about adding a molle hydration system low inside the frame in the open area.

Thanks to all of you with your comments and ideas...really got my mind thinking about some other mods!!

Happy hiking!

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## Rick

The biggest favor you can do yourself is upgrade the shoulder straps to Molle straps. It makes a world of difference. 

I did a paracord braid for the top handle instead of the web strap. Same difference but it really is handy. 

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## Scouter17

Thanks for the tip Rick.  I actually had been looking at that upgrade as well.  Wondering if anyone has experience with adding a hydration pack inside the alice frame.  Seems to be plenty of room plus keeps it low and close to the back.  Thoughts?

Jeff

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## Rick

I played with it and didn't like it. I'm just not a fan of bladders in general. The smaller inside compartment doesn't allow much room and the larger inside compartment makes it difficult to get to with all your other gear in there. I just use a canteen attached to the outside of the pack.

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## Scouter17

Hi Rick - Sorry, got caught up in life for a while here.  I guess the idea I was toying with was to secure a bladder within the frame itself, between my back and the frame.  I agree, I have no room for a bladder insde the pack.

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## Rick

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. There's certainly room. The thing I really like about that gap being empty is the air circulation you get on your back. When it's really hot you can feel the ventilation.

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## Grizzly907LA

Can you do this mod with an MOLLE II Enduro Flex frame. This question may of already been answered and I apologize if it is. Thank you

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## finallyME

> Can you do this mod with an MOLLE II Enduro Flex frame. This question may of already been answered and I apologize if it is. Thank you


What mod are you referring to?

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## usmc0311

Ok I'm new to  modifying my large pack. Ive been thinking of removing the inner radio pouch in the main compartment and then sewing on more external pouches for a assorted types of gear, does anyone have any suggestions on type of thread or material to use for the external pouches and also I've seen on here everyone changing their medium pack frame for the MSS carrier but  not for the large packs any suggestions for that also?

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## Faiaoga

Thanks for the very useful ALICE thread.  I have a medium ALICE pack with frame that should be adequate for my needs.  My question is about the cargo shelf for the frame.

Does anyone have experience using a cargo shelf to carry jerrycans of fuel or water?  Is there any difficulty attaching or removing the shelf?  Can anyone recommend a good source?
Thank you for any help on this.
Faiaoga

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## ElevenBravo

Thread is a 10/10!  Ive recently sworn off ALICE gear, used it for 16 years in the service, and a bit more after that. Ive gone USMC ILBE and prefer that greatly for comfort and superior design.  I do however like the MOLLE & LC pack combo!!

Andrew

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## mountainman_270

I am going to modify my sons ALICE (my old pack I bought yrs ago) to the "hellcat" but with the new Down East airborne frame. We have two MOLLEs here at home. I now use the new MOLLE II (Multicam) large rucksack and my other son uses the older MOLLE were the sleeping bag carrier is separate. Both have the GEN IV frame. I have used the new MOLLE II a few times and in weather hitting -16*C and the frame holds up well so far. With the mods I hope the old ALICE will be as comfortable to pack for my son as the new MOLLE II. However, an earlier post said it correctly about pack fit, the important thing is torso length. I love all the mods in this thread, though sometimes a new pack is cheaper. When its not cheaper, it is good to know that a few thought out purchases with very inexpesive ALICE gear and MOLLE parts can build a very good and usable system.

As an aside, I used to use the ALICE m1967 (through the 1980's) gear for hunting and it was good.  In 1991 I purchased the Canadian army's version of the M1967 gear called Pattern 82 webbing. It was more comfortable though not quite as versitile.I now use an arktis vest (Long Range Patrol) and it is very comfortable, but I must fight the tendency pack stuff in the vest that can really ride in the pack. That was never an issue with the older M1967 ALICE system. I have since tried chest rigs and vests. I have settled on the Arktis vest mentoned above. The new Molle vest appears to as modular as the M1967 gear but comfortable as the newer vests.
Ok,  I've done rambling.

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## Scouter17

Thought OI would update a bit.  Been a while since I was on here, but I have been solwly modifying my Alice with things that seem to suit my needs...mainly Scouting adventures.  IMG-20130331-00207.jpgIMG-20130331-00208.jpg
I have found that certain Molle pouches attach nicely in certain areas.  I have four IFAK pouches shown in these pics, but I also use two 2qt water bladders in the lower positions on the sides. On top of the main compartment flap I have added a Condor Butt Pack, I believe Fox industries make a similar product.  Of course, you'll see an MSS as well.  Overall, I am pretty happy with the set up and feel of the Alice right now.  I haven't purchased the Molle II shoulder straps or kindney belt yet, I am pretty happy with how it feels with the LC-2 equipment.

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## Rick

The difference in the shoulder straps are night and day. Do yourself a favor and upgrade them. You'll be happy you did. I like the IFAK pouches but the darn thing already holds more than I want to carry. Those would force me to find more gear to carry. :O)

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## Wildthang

> The difference in the shoulder straps are night and day. Do yourself a favor and upgrade them. You'll be happy you did. I like the IFAK pouces but the darn thing already holds more than I want to carry. Those would force me to find more gear to carry. :O)


Can you get them at Alices Restaurant :Smartass:

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## crashdive123

> Can you get them at Alices Restaurant


Anything you want my friend.......except Alice.

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## Wildthang

> Anything you want my friend.......except Alice.


I thought it was *exceptin* Alice!

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## Kabong01

Which do you prefer the large or Medium Alice Pack?
I have both, but find I use the medium mostly. The large tends to pull you backwards and you can easily get carried away with the space and end up packing 40-50 kilos (80-100 lbs.)

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## DSJohnson

I have two LC-1s one medium and one large.  I have never had a frame on the medium.  I have used it as a "truck" bag for about 10 years or so until just recently when I swapped out for the ILBE.  I have used my large Alice quite a bit on weekend trips with the Scouts but I never really liked it as much as I did my Jansport D-4.  I agree completely the large Alice really is big and you can sure "slip over the edge" on packing too much stuff very easy...

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