# Survival > Primitive Skills & Technology >  Flint and Steel?

## Twig

Im looking for a good quality flint and steel set. I tend to use ferro rods when camping and making fires. Ya I always have a lighter but making a fire without one is more satisfying to me. Anyway its been a very long time since Ive use flint and steel. I cant find the old one I had. Im looking at two different things on amazon. 

This one. 
ESEE Fire Steel for True Flint & Steel Fire Making https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IOC7HZC..._ItqQCbHFK5XZ6

I would have to find some flint or other suitable rocks Im not sure how hard thats going to be around here. I like idea of having the bowdrill socket integrated in the steel. Ive never used a bowdrill but its on my things to learn list. 

Im also looking at this one
KonvoySG Flint and Steel Kit. Fire Striker, English Flint Stone & Char Cloth Traditional Hand Forged Fire Starter with a Leather Gift Pouch and Emergency Tinder Jute Bag (Coyote Brown) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0757NTNXL..._fEqQCbWB0AGFP

I like this one because it comes with what appears to be a decent steel and flint Ive already got char amd tins tinder ect. But I read a lot of nice reviews on this kit. 

Anyway any suggestions on either of these or suggestions on where to get quality flint and steel kits? 

Thanks

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## Rick

Peronally, I think they are way overpriced. For that price, you could have a nice fire steel and a good Mora knife to boot. 

Here's all you need to start fires for cheap. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/magnes...iABEgJV1PD_BwE

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## crashdive123

Too pricey for my taste.  You should be able to find some natural flint where you live and an old file can be cut and used for your steel.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

About 25 years ago I taught a high school Resource Science class.  For those of you unfamiliar with public school classes... that is a class set up for students with learning disabilities.  My group was pretty sharp, they just couldn't read so good and needed to learn things in an unconventional manner.  We were talking about reaction rates of combustable materials.  So, I figured what better way to do that than to build fires.  We studied all the fire making methods and the test was to make a fire.  

The preferred method was flint and steel (none of us knew what a ferro rod was).  The preferred flint was a flint rock (free from the parking lot) and for the steel, an old rusty file (free from the ground outside the Ag Mech shop).  Those kids got to where they could build a fire in nothing flat with a rock and an old file.  They used some natural tinder but their favorite was 0000 steel wool.  That stuff burns like nobody's business.  Stick a wad of it in a handful of dried grass, whack a spark or two into it, blow, and you've got about five seconds to get it under the tinder before your hand starts blistering.  

Folks have just gotten to dern soft with all these fancy ferro rods and high dollar flint dohickies!

Alan

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

And NO we didn't burn the school down.

Alan

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## Rick

Nothing better than the answer before the question. Thank you.

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## kyratshooter

If I had been able to sell fire steels for that kind of money I would still have a forge working in the back yard!

One class I taught I furnished with fire kits made from the materials already spoken about here.  A two inch long chunk of a file broken off in the vise and one edge smoothed on the grinder, a chunk of flint from a creek bed, and a bit of char-cloth, all presented in a shoe polish or Altoids tin which could be used to make the needed char-cloth.

Look through a couple of flea markets and fine some of the old Sterrit or Black Diamond files.  They are good steel all the way through.  I still have a bucket full of rusty ones that I picked up for $5 for the whole bucket a decade ago.

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## Twig

In reference to the file for the steel part do you have to remove the teath? Also are new files made with high carbon steel or does it need to be an old one?  Ive got some old file sets that are still useable and in great shape. Id rather just buy a new file and use it. Anyway thanks! I do have several ferro rods and a hand full of the magnesium starters. I just want to try the flint and steel again.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

The most important thing about flint and steel fire making is making sure to not hit your fingers with the flint or the steel.  New files, old files, whatever as long as the flint can get through the rust to the steel.

Alan

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## crashdive123

With regards to removing the cutting surface of the file - it is no neccessary.  You will want to use a smooth edge, but you will have that when you break the file.  If you want a longer striking surface then I would remove the cutting surface from one edge of the file.

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## DCorlando

Just wanted to mention my best steel was made from a piece of 1/4 x 1/4 1095 key stock from McMaster Carr and water harden with no temper. I have not tried this as I have a nice charcoal forge but I think it may be possible to make a simple U shaped striker using nothing but a small propane hand torch, two pliers and a small tub of water. The small striker is quite light and is easy on the flint.

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## Twig

Thanks. I used my chop saw and cut a small section about maybe 2 inches from a new file. I rounded the very corners took off the teeth on the edges. I left the teeth on the flats figure better grip and a small file if I need one. I drilled a hole and tied some jute to it.  I found some rocks that did throw small sparks. I really was not able to nap them so I just smacked them with a hammer which threw sparks. I tried the rocks with some char and was able to get it to light.  I had to really smack it though. I tried different angles probably more my inexperience than the materials. Im still going to keep my eyes open for flint. I know what I found is not flint defiantly not quarts. Anyway thanks for the advice!

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## crashdive123

Keep in mind that the amount of sparks thrown from natural stone and steel is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what you will get from ferrocerium rod and steel.

One single spark into charcloth is all it takes.

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## kyratshooter

> Thanks. I used my chop saw and cut a small section about maybe 2 inches from a new file. I rounded the very corners took off the teeth on the edges. I left the teeth on the flats figure better grip and a small file if I need one. I drilled a hole and tied some jute to it.  I found some rocks that did throw small sparks. I really was not able to nap them so I just smacked them with a hammer which threw sparks. I tried the rocks with some char and was able to get it to light.  I had to really smack it though. I tried different angles probably more my inexperience than the materials. Im still going to keep my eyes open for flint. I know what I found is not flint defiantly not quarts. Anyway thanks for the advice!


All of that work on the file might have drawn the temper from the steel.  Especially if you managed to drill a hole in it.  That is generally impossible without annealing the file or a specialized drill bit and even then it might have built up too much heat. 

As for the stone, "flint" is a generalized term we use and many stones will throw good sparks.  My favorite spark stone is a broken arrowhead I found many years ago.  It is some kind of chert and not real high quality, but it throws good sparks.

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## Twig

I kept everything cool by dipping it in water. When I filed it down I used my bare hand to make sure it never got hot. Took my time. The drilling was the easy part. I used Milwaukee drill bits intended for hardened steel along with some oil. Drill bit quickly ate through it. The drill bits for hardened steel are awesome. The main issue I’m having with the rocks is not that they are not sparking very well. I believe they are granite. The issue is the edge goes away very quickly! I’ve tried to break them so they produce a sharp edge. Not working. I did start my BBQ with it last night using charred cotton balls. I’m tempted to put a rock in my portable table vice and grind on it with an angle grinder to see what happens! Hahahahaha

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## DCorlando

> I kept everything cool by dipping it in water. When I filed it down I used my bare hand to make sure it never got hot. Took my time. The drilling was the easy part. I used Milwaukee drill bits intended for hardened steel along with some oil. Drill bit quickly ate through it. The drill bits for hardened steel are awesome. The main issue Im having with the rocks is not that they are not sparking very well. I believe they are granite. The issue is the edge goes away very quickly! Ive tried to break them so they produce a sharp edge. Not working. I did start my BBQ with it last night using charred cotton balls. Im tempted to put a rock in my portable table vice and grind on it with an angle grinder to see what happens! Hahahahaha


Hi, looks like you have it backwards. It's the steel that sparks and burns not the rock. That's why the type of steel is so important. Simple high carbon steels like 1095 are best. The alloys tend to suppress the burning. When striking a sharp piece of flint with high carbon steel little bits are shaved off and burn. Regarding granite, it is a mix rock - look closely and you should see some off white shiny spots, that's quartz. Find a spot of quartz with a edge and it will spark if struck with high carbon steel. The rest of the granite not so much.

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## kyratshooter

Twig, you are in a flint wasteland in SC.  The only natural stone you are going to find will be some low grade chert.  Arrow point hunters in your area are often astounded at where the Indians imported their stone from and find very few points made of local stone.

You do have options.

You can order musket flints from black powder supply stores on line.  Musket flints are about an inch square and will give you thousands of fires if you do not abuse them.  Track Of The Wolf is one supplier.  You can also order flint shards from reenactment suppliers such as Smoke and Fire company or Jas Townsend.  Look in their fire kits section.  You may be surprised to find that you can buy a nice flint and steel kit complete with several shards, the steel, char cloth, tow, and a charcloth making tin for $20 or put your own together even cheaper.


https://www.smoke-fire.com/product-c...essories/fire/

You can also look on the internet at your state parks website.  You will have archaeological sites scattered around the state and all of these sites hold events called "Knap-ins", where flint knappers come to display their skills and creations.  They generally leave large piles of waste flakes lying about.  These guys alse bring pickup truck loads of flint to the sites to sell or trade.  The park websites will have these events listed.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

We have lots of flint. Even so, I'm one of those people who picks up rocks everywhere I go.  Pretty rocks, ugly rocks, any kind of rocks.  When they clean out my stuff they are going to find boxes of rocks... They'll likely draw some parallels...

The predominant concrete aggregate down here is river rock (gravel). It is largely flint, some sandstone but mostly flint. I've found some really good sharpening stones in gravel piles.


Alan

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## kyratshooter

When I lived down in Tennessee we only had one rock.  It was one big single chunk of limestone that ran from Knoxville to just west of Nashville, 6" under the ground.

No kidding, we used to have to buy dynamite to install a new mailbox! 

Over there the Indians had "flint mines" where they traveled to quarry stone for their tools.  Other areas had the same situation.

Where I am now the content is a lot of glacial moraine and you can find almost anything if you look long enough.

I learned a long time ago that when searching for sparking flint or something to knap that the dominate stone in any area was going to be leverite.  You take your striker down to the creek and start checking stones.  If they spark you put them in your pocket. 

If they do not spark you "leave her right" where you found her.

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## crashdive123

We don't have rocks unless they are picked up at the landscaping store.  Now, if sand sparked........

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## crashdive123

We do have fossilized coral though and it sparks pretty good once it is baked.

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## madmax

Baked chert will work too.

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## Twig

Ok so Ive given in and accepted if I want flint Im gonna have to buy it or wait until I go off traveling. I found a few places online that sell flint and other rocks by the lb. Ive also found a few that sell flint ready to use for flint and steel.  Im tempted to buy some by the lb. what is the difference between spalls and flakes? Which should I buy?

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## crashdive123

A spall is a larger flake.  A flake can be very small.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

If folks are going to buy flint, I'm going to order a load of gravel and pick up a bunch of flat rate boxes at the PO tomorrow!  

I'll tell you what, next time I go to the ranch (maybe this week), I'll pick up a bunch of flint rocks and send them to you in a flat rate box, if you'll pay the postage. The rocks are free (that's just what kind of guy I am....) (if this works, no kidding, I'm going into business...).

Alan

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## kyratshooter

Alan, folks have been buying flint since time began!

Good tool making flint was a #1 trade item between the Indian tribes with obsidian from the Rocky mountains a high value good. The novoclite from Arkansas was also prized.  That is the stuff we make Arkansas knife sharpening stones from.  They had some pink chert over there that is found all through TN and KY as grave goods.

In Europe and Asia they track the travel of technology during the stone age by the flint that was traded among the cultures with french flint in Great Britain, German flint in Italy and such.  With the flint went new methods f flaking and the spread of more efficient point shapes.

Even the cave men were working the profit margin.

After firearms were invented it was the gun flint that was doing the traveling.  The French and English shipped gun flints to the colonies by the barrel full. I know hundreds of barrels were shipped into Mobile, which was a French colony. 

The best Muzzle loading flints for a flintlock rifle are made from English black flint and they are still being imported.  Most of the flints sold from the ML suppliers are imported from England.

The French gun flints are often colorful and tend to go to yellow and caramel colors.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Oh I know.  In a time when flint and flint-like rocks were cutting edge technology, entire economies were based on mining and trading flint nodules.  Mining nodules, sitting down and shaping them to cores for easier transport and of course the trading.  In Texas the Tonkawa controlled the central trade grounds just under the Edwards Escarpment.  Plenty of wood for fires, flowing springs and enough game to host the gatherings. The Pueblo from the west, Caddo from the northeast, Karankawa from the south, Atakapaw from the east.  Each group bringing those things that were not to be had in other places.  The Caddo probably controlled a lot of the trade since they had the Bois D'arc ( the best bow making wood) and plenty of crops.  

Every time I get in a discussion about Global Warming or "Climate Change", I always reference the Pueblo.  I always ask the other person why the Pueblo built their cities to house their large populations out in the desert.  They scratch their heads and try to come up with any answer except "It wasn't a desert then".  The climate in south and west Texas began changing to more arid 500 or so years ago.  Long before the internal combustion engine or cow farts or any of the multitude of other reasons generally given.

They usually don't want to talk to me any more after that, which is fine with me.

I still haven't gotten a taker on my offer of "free flint only pay the postage" though.  I guess the neolithic is gone for good.

Alan

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## madmax

Alan,  I'm not from the west so it was a mystery about big populations out in the desert to me until my first trip down the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon.  It was a private trip so we had to rely on numerous guide books and veterans stories to get the real picture.  Why granaries high up on the cliff walls?  Where did they grow the corn?  It was obvious that they couldn't farm there as it is now,  so what happened?  The books got passed around and climbing up to the living quarters and granaries became favorite stops.  I can't tell you how many times I've read John Wesley Powell's first descent down the river.

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## cadniya

> Just wanted to mention my best steel was made from a piece of 1/4 x 1/4 1095 key stock from McMaster Carr and water harden with no temper. I have not tried this as I have a nice charcoal forge but I think it may be possible to make a simple U shaped striker using nothing but a small propane hand torch, two pliers and a small tub of water. The small striker is quite light and is easy on the flint.


One class I taught I furnished  ***************A two inch long chunk of a file broken off in the vise and one edge smoothed on the grinder, a chunk of flint from a creek bed, and a bit of char-cloth, all presented in a shoe polish or Altoids tin which could be used to make the needed char-cloth.

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## crashdive123

Do you get to teach many classes in Algeria?

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## ATS

The ESEE fire steel works very well. The edges are squared off and can be used to throw sparks off a ferro rod. The divot is there for use in making fire with a bow drill. And you can open bottles with it as well. Lol. It isn't a one trick pony. It also has the advantage of having been heat treated for the purpose of throwing sparks. But it is a bit pricey so a piece of a file might be a better option. 

As to the rock you use, it has to be harder than the steel. I have read that the sparks coming off the steel are actually small chunks of steel that are oxidizing so rapidly they burn up thus generating the spark and thus the heat needed to generate the ember in the charred material. Actual flint is good, but quartz works well. I find small quartz rocks all over the place. Just break a chunk off so you have an edge to strike against.

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## FrankHunting

I agree. ESEE fire steel works great.  :Smile:

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## ATS

There is a rest area in MO off one of the interstates where part of the landscaping is a largepatch of white crushed stone. I was looking at it and found that some of the rocks were chunks of flint or chert. I grabbed several of them to take with me. I have also picked up several quartz rocks from out of river rock used in landscaping at turnpike travel plazas in Ohio. 

To determine if a rock will throw sparks or not you could carry a small chunk of file that you could pull out and use to try to strike a spark.

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## zippywoop1

I am late to this, but if you live where I live where you can't easily find flint outside and don't wanna pay money for flint, you can go panning or searching for some quartz, it works the same way when struck by some metal.

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## Wildpiper

If anyone is still following this thread a great steel striker can be made from a cheap harbor freight set of allen wrenches a map gas torch and a file. You heat one of the smaller ones up and shape it with pliers. Then you heat it up until its non magnetic then heat it a bit hotter. Usually bright orange in glow. Then quench in water or brine and file the scale off the striking surface

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