# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Hunting & Trapping >  Ethical Hunting

## Batch

I was bass fishing where they had a 14"to 24" slot limit. I eat the 24" bass and everybody got pissed because they said the bigger bass had better genetics and I was ruining bass fishing.

So next time I kept the smaller legal bass. I get why did I kill the "baby bass"? It hadn't had enough time to breed.

Where I hunt deer during opening archery there is a simple rule. If it is brown it is down. 

If it isn't spotted kill it. I am a meat hunter. HOLD the horns! So, gimme something on the smaller side of legal draggin size. Mmmmmmmmm good....

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## your_comforting_company

Why does this apply to the bass and not the deer?

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## crimescene450

> Why does this apply to the bass and not the deer?



Do you mean other peoples perspectives?    I think there are some people (or at least more people) who look at deer, and think 'pests'.  Where as fish they dont.  Thats just my guess.     I certainly dont agree.

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## crashdive123

*EVERYBODY LISTEN UP!*  Please do not let a discussion on the ethics of hunting or fishing turn to name calling and personal attacks (even generalized) again.  Passions run high on the subject - I get that.  If you cannot discuss it without the petty insults, then don't read or post about it.  Thanks in advance for keeping this a fun place to hang out where we can all learn from each other.

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## Reverend Greg

In my opinion...I would only eat a small full grown doe for "Pleasure meat",I have never been a real big fan of venison on its own.So,I would go for the less "gamey" doe,nice and young.But if I had to feed my family I would do what I had to do.Now before any one wonders out loud, Ive eaten a fox,Muskrat,pigs brains,and every type of swimming,hopping, crawling thing the states of Georgia,Illinois,and Louisiana had to offer.I hunt for food,If I'm not going to use at least 90% of what I kill,Ive killed in vain.I believe in morality,just cause its legal,don't make it right.It might be legal in some countries to "do things" to kids,does that mean you should?....IIRC you can shoot does here in Georgia,we have enough of them..
(G)

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## rwc1969

I like the idea of slot limits on fish rather than the limits we have here in MI. 

As far as deer go I kill em all except for bambi. I feel bad for them, but I still kill em and eat em.

For me the only unethical thing would be to kill and not eat, just for the pleasure of killing or chase.

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## Justin Case

LOL,,  watch out,,  we may be invaded by ET's and WE ALL will become the hunted !  Your grandchildren may be on the menu !   just sayin

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## Rick

(shaking head) Here we go again.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> Ethical Hunting


How big of a gun do I need, to hunt ethicals?

...and does anybody have a good recipe, for them? :Cowboy:

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## mosquitomountainman

> How big of a gun do I need, to hunt ethicals?
> 
> ...and does anybody have a good recipe, for them?


Is there a season dedicated to ethicals like there is on tourists?

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## Justin Case

> Is there a season dedicated to ethicals like there is on tourists?


same as "Can" season,,,,

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## crashdive123

> same as "Can" season,,,,


Careful.  You don't want to go down that path.

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## Justin Case

> Careful.  You don't want to go down that path.


Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Play the game here http://games-free-online.net/?a=game&id=210

(hey, this is kinds fun  :Smile: )

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## NightShade

Some people don't wanna hunt or fish, for whatever reason, and that's fine... I wouldn't ever force them to do it because I want to.... what I can't quite understand is why they would want me to not hunt because they don't want to.
forcing people to follow your belief is fascism.
I've got no problem with people who don't hunt or fish.... I've got major problem with people who wanna take my rights to hunt or fish away.... they don't want to do it, so nobody should.... seriously, I hate people like that.
I typically ignore those people, they are sheep who could never fend for themselves.
ignorance posing as moral superiority.

If you use the animal for meat, and kill it legally.... I see no problem.

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## rwc1969

Ah, but that's what the world is made up of, it's how governments keep us in our pens. It's the oldest trick in the book.

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## Rick

The oldest trick in the book is placing a frozen pea between her fingers before she gets your pinch of gold dust.

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## your_comforting_company

Rick probably has the book..

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## NightShade

Rick came up with the oldest trick.

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## crashdive123

> Rick probably has the book..





> Rick came up with the oldest trick.


Or just maybe he IS the oldest trick.

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## Rick

During the gold rush, services would be traded for gold dust. Just a pinch. A smart madam would squeeze a dried pea between her thumb and finger creating a deep indentation. Then when she got her pinch of gold dust she would get about 10 times as much and no one was the wiser.

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## Justin Case

> During the gold rush, services would be traded for gold dust. Just a pinch. A smart madam would squeeze a dried pea between her thumb and finger creating a deep indentation. Then when she got her pinch of gold dust she would get about 10 times as much and no one was the wiser.


Interesting, Thanks,,  I'll bet there were lots of sneaky things going on in those days,  I seen a documentary where they said there was lots of gold dust found under saloons ,, it would fall through the cracks in the floor ,, especially in the area of the bar.

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## FVR

My philosophy is that if I kill it, I eat it.  If I catch a big bass and it's legal to eat, I eat it.

Same goes with deer and hogs.  I don't care much for the antlers as I don't hunt for my ego but rather for meat.

Now, I have my own set of rules.  I will not shoot a doe or sow if it has little ones with it.  If they are alone it's a diff. story.

I don't shoot the biggest hog, because it's just too much meat.  I like the smaller ones.


I'm not in favor of the quality deer management.  If it's a legal kill or catch, I eat it.

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## mountain1

i honestly don't worry about it. if i'm camping,canoeing,or just fishing nearby. if i want to eat the fish i could careless about slot limits or what have you. i just eat the damn thing and don't worry about it. i honestly don't worry about 'their' rules.
when i'm camping and want fish for dinner, the last think i'm thinking about is the law(s). i just want fish for dinner... and i'm going to have fish for dinner...simple as that!
and i have no oversion to killing bambi if i need deer meat.
but as the above post says, i as well will not kill a doe or cow elk if it has young with it. besides a wet doe taste like crap anyway. i made the honest mistake of killing a wt doe a couple of years ago that was wet (the yearling was about the same size as her so i didn't realize it until it was to late). we ended up canning the whole damn thing and mixing it with other meat in stews to kill the taste.yuck.

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## Rick

I sure hope you don't cross someone that doesn't care about the law and kills YOU. It's about wildlife management not about your pleasure for the moment.

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## mountain1

> I sure hope you don't cross someone that doesn't care about the law and kills YOU. It's about wildlife management not about your pleasure for the moment.


you do realize i'm just talking about having a couple of fish for dinner.
not dynamiting the whole damn lake.
god i love montana. no one i know worries about stuff like this.

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## mosquitomountainman

> I sure hope you don't cross someone that doesn't care about the law and kills YOU. It's about wildlife management not about your pleasure for the moment.


Sometimes it's about wildlife management.  Sometimes it's about politics.

Wolves are a prime example of politics over management.

Honestly, you'd be better off being charged with illegally killing a person than an animal.  Animals have more clout politically.

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## mosquitomountainman

> ... god i love montana. no one i know worries about stuff like this.


Amen brother!   :Thumbs Up:  :clap:  :Thumbup:

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## mountain1

> Sometimes it's about wildlife management.  Sometimes it's about politics.
> 
> Wolves are a prime example of politics over management.
> 
> Honestly, you'd be better off being charged with illegally killing a person than an animal.  Animals have more clout politically.


thank you :clap:  :Thumbup1: 
i don't think most folks really understand the politics behind "wildlife managment". rick is worried about me keeping a few fish to eat that aren't "legal". should we tell him about the federal goverment poisining a whole entire ecosystem in the bob marshell wilderness on purpose. killing millions upon millions of trout. and he's worried about me keeping a couple of fish. 
i guess it's ok though since the 'goverment' is doing it. BS i say :Cursing:

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## mosquitomountainman

> ...i made the honest mistake of killing a wt doe a couple of years ago that was wet (the yearling was about the same size as her so i didn't realize it until it was to late). we ended up canning the whole damn thing and mixing it with other meat in stews to kill the taste.yuck.


I killed an antlered doe about three years ago bowhunting.  He/she/it was lactating.  The meat was okay on it.  First one I ever saw and didn't know it when I shot.  Thought it was a buck.

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## mosquitomountainman

> thank you
> i don't think most folks really understand the politics behind "wildlife managment". rick is worried about me keeping a few fish to eat that aren't "legal". should we tell him about the federal goverment poisining a whole entire ecosystem in the bob marshell wilderness on purpose. killing millions upon millions of trout. and he's worried about me keeping a couple of fish. 
> i guess it's ok though since the 'goverment' is doing it. BS i say


He's from Indiana.  Lots more people there and less wildlife per person.  They have to manage it closely or they won't have any left.

It's difficult for Easterners to comprehend the vast space we have here either.

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## mountain1

> He's from Indiana.  Lots more people there and less wildlife per person.  They have to manage it closely or they won't have any left.
> 
> It's difficult for Easterners to comprehend the vast space we have here either.


yeah i know, i try to keep things into prespective but it's hard sometimes for me to imagine. that's why i never leave the state unless i'm going to AL to see my family (once every 3-5 yrs or so). even there in bama' i grew up in very rural northern AL in the "hills". none of us there ever bought hunting or fishing license. we just went on about our merry way and did as we pleased and never hurt anyone. 
i don't know; i guess i just grew up different than most folks. we never worried about the "law" we just did what we wanted to do and didn't worry about it . i still live by that same philosophy today.
 i have to say, that most folks i know in MT are the same way.
'cause no harm. and leave me alone. it's none of anyone's damn buisness what i do...'
this is why i love montana :drunk:

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## Rick

> if i want to eat the fish i could careless about slot limits or what  have you. i just eat the damn thing and don't worry about it. i honestly  don't worry about 'their' rules.


Those are your words. You continue to express a wanton disregard for hunting rules. You also insist on changing the parameters to meet your argument. You go from killing turkeys to killing bears in another thread because it better suits your argument. Or condemn the government for their act and then interject some sentiment I never expressed. 

And MM it has nothing to do with where I live. I obey hunting and fishing laws where ever I am. And since you aren't from Indiana it's a bit difficult to know what we have or do. And just as an aside, I've been to Montana. SHOCK. I do comprehend the vast space. 

And when you can't support your argument further you talk about how far you live into the mountains and no one can get there for days so no one will know. 

You guys exhibit the same mentality that has decimated the buffalo herds, elephant populations, tiger populations, etc. It's one thing to stop a raiding bear. It's quite another to talk about doing whatever you want and damn the consequences. By the way, we have that kind in Indiana, too. 

Nothing I say is going to change the way you hunt or fish. I know that. But I can see a wolf even if it wears camo. When I do, I generally point them out.

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## Justin Case

I agree Rick,,  shame these guys think they are above the law,,,,

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## mosquitomountainman

I've never met anyone who obeyed every law on the books.  We all make decisions as to which laws we obey ... or not.  Have you ever crossed a street outside the marked lines?  Parked over the time limit?  Worked for pay "under the table?"  Driven a vehicle illegally?  Driven or ridden without a seat belt?  If you've always obeyed every law you were aware of then go ahead and accuse others of thinking they are above the law.  Otherwise you're just a hypocrite deciding which laws are important for "other people" to obey.

The laws are different in MT due to several influences.  If wildlife is threatening you or your livestock you have the right to kill it.  No charges will be pressed although in some cases the evidence better be obvious.  In other cases merely having a predator near your residence, showing no signs of fear, is enough justification for shooting it.  Mountain lions, bears, and wolves being prime examples.  In many cases FWP is called and in some will try to capture and relocate the animal but quite often they'll just say kill it and notify them.  Relocation often doesn't work.

Montana is open range.  That means that if you want to let your stock roam free you can do it.  There's no legal requirement to keep it fenced in and if livestock comes on your property and walks through your garden it's your responsibility to build a fence around your property.  Same thing if livestock is in the road.  It's your responsibility to avoid it.  The owner cannot be held responsible for it.

It is a different way of life here.  I've even known a few (very few) instances of game wardens being careful to not "see" some things when they knew the "poaching" was done by people who needed the meat.  I'd rather see someone take an "extra" deer in the season than apply for welfare or food stamps.  If it gets out-of-hand things will be done and it only applies to subsistance hunting ... not trophy or market hunting.  

Comparing the person who may take a couple of fish without a license to the full-scale, government supported, market hunting that wiped out the buffalo is disingenuous.  Those who make their home here have a lot of respect for wildlife.  I can guarantee it isn't the climate or economic opportunties that brought them here.  In fact, the people who might take an extra fish or two are probably better educated, more astute conservationists than the city slicker who got their outdoor education from Walt Disney Studios.

Hunting, fishing, and other outdoor recreation is what keeps many if not most of us here putting up with the lousy climate and economic situation.  Does anyone here really believe we're going crap in our own bed and destroy that heritage?

Too many hunting and fishing regulations in the US, and especially in the West are a result of political appeasement rather than based on sound, scientific game management.  Wolves have far exceeded the original objectives for "sustainable growth" yet remain on the endangered list because of the decision of a federal judge ... not wildlife biologists.  Look at the ban on hunting mountain lions in Kalifornia.  What did that have to do with game management?

What would you do if some outside group with a lot of political clout decided to build a prison in your neighborhood?  Our an oil refinery or any other business that would negatively impact your way of life and the judiciary bcked them up on it?  Would there be some resentment present?  That's the way Montanans see wolf introduction.  We didn't want them but they were forced on us by the left coast.  Wolves are not good neighbors.  They kill wildlife and domestic animals and endanger our way of life and our economic system.  There have been numerous times when wolves killed livestock and the dogs valiently trying to protect those livestock.  Can you imagine what it's like for a ranch family to see their dogs running out in a field to fight off wolves that are killing livestock then see the dogs get ripped to shreds by the wolf pack?  It happens here.   Those supporting wolves are writing checks on someone else's account and are no different than welfare queens taking money out of our pockets with a complete disregard for how it impacts those footing the bill for their fetish.

Now regarding Indiana ...  I have relatives in Indiana and Wisconsin.  I've been there.  I, as a Montana resident do not believe I should be forcing my wildlife conservation views on you and we'd appreciate the same courtesy from those who live outside our state. Let each state handle their own wildlife without federal intervention.  Is that too much to ask?

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## Justin Case

The thread is about ethical hunting,,,,  not ethical driving,,,

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## mosquitomountainman

> The thread is about ethical hunting,,,,  not ethical driving,,,


"I agree Rick,, shame these guys think they are above the law,,,,"

There's a concept stated here that goes beyond hunting.  It's about picking and choosing which laws you think should be obeyed.  LIke I posted ... 'If you've always obeyed every law you were aware of then go ahead and accuse others of thinking they are above the law. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite deciding which laws are important for "other people" to obey.'

Do you believe people should obey all laws or only those they believe should be obeyed?

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## Rick

> Let each state handle their own wildlife without federal intervention.  Is that too much to ask?


I'd actually be quite pleased if Montana were able to handle their wildlife without intervention. But since you guys are the ones that posted your disregard for your own laws it doesn't seem like it's happening. You also managed to twist the argument around to jaywalking and motorcycles and whatever...again. I'm not the one that said they did what ever they wanted to do. That's all I take exception to. Follow your own state's laws and all is good. By the way, I'm done with this post so feel free to post your rebuttal.

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## Justin Case

> "I agree Rick,, shame these guys think they are above the law,,,,"
> 
> There's a concept stated here that goes beyond hunting.  It's about picking and choosing which laws you think should be obeyed.  LIke I posted ... 'If you've always obeyed every law you were aware of then go ahead and accuse others of thinking they are above the law. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite deciding which laws are important for "other people" to obey.'
> 
> *Do you believe people should obey all laws* or only those they believe should be obeyed?


Yes,,,  they "Should",,,,  If they dont and brag about it they should expect ridicule,,,,  I dont really care if you eat illegal fish or not,,  its your a$$ if you get caught,,,,

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## 2dumb2kwit

> How big of a gun do I need, to hunt ethicals?
> 
> ...and does anybody have a good recipe, for them?


 Anyone.....


...anyone??? :Blush:

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## mosquitomountainman

> I'd actually be quite pleased if Montana were able to handle their wildlife without intervention. But since you guys are the ones that posted your disregard for your own laws it doesn't seem like it's happening. You also managed to twist the argument around to jaywalking and motorcycles and whatever...again. I'm not the one that said they did what ever they wanted to do. That's all I take exception to. Follow your own state's laws and all is good. By the way, I'm done with this post so feel free to post your rebuttal.


There'd be a whole bunch of us pleased if each state handled their own affairs without federal intervention.  

My point was that anyone who disregards any law has no right to vilify others for doing the same thing.  We all pick and choose and maybe the reason is because so many of the laws are intrusive and have nothing to do with justice.
For example, if a woman is about to be raped and shoots her attacker dead it's justifiable.  If she has been raped and waits until the attacker is leaving then kills him with a rifle from her front porch as he walks under a street light she's committed a murder.  But now I'm really digressing from the topic.

Game laws are a tough issue here primarily because of past abuses.  We've had to put up with restrictions on our lifestyles due to grizzly bears for years.  Most forest service roads are gated to protect grizzly bears.  Years ago there were "studies" that purportedly showed that grizzly bears avoided "roads" so the feds blocked off vehicle access to large parts of the national forest.  The state was compelled to do the same by the federal government.  Locals thought is was nonsense because we see grizzlies on roads all the time.  Years later the FWP people admitted that the problem with road access didn't have anything to do with the bears avoiding roads (by then the evidence was so overwhelming that they could no longer support that lie) but they closed roads to keep the people out of bear habitat because when the people and bears met, the bears lost.  So, we're deprived of reasonable access to millions of acres of national forest property because of federal intervention citing bogus "scientific research."
To say there's a little resentment toward outside control is a huge understatement.

Like I said earlier, Montanan's are not going to destroy what we've come here to enjoy.  The destruction is coming from outside the state in the form of federal interference.

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## mosquitomountainman

> Yes,,,  they "Should",,,,  If they dont and brag about it they should expect ridicule,,,,  I dont really care if you eat illegal fish or not,,  its your a$$ if you get caught,,,,


And those doing the illegal activity know it's their tail that's going to get pinched if they get caught.  :Hang: 

And people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks either.  What applies to the goose also applies to the gander.  :Nono:  


 :Banana:

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## Justin Case

I am not the guy bragging about taking illegal animals,,,,  that would be you,,, that's pretty much a slap in the face to your fellow hunters that obey the wildlife laws,,,  now run along and play,

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## mosquitomountainman

> I am not the guy bragging about taking illegal animals,,,,  that would be you,,, that's pretty much a slap in the face to your fellow hunters that obey the wildlife laws,,,  now run along and play,


You're just the guy applying standards of behavior to others that you don't apply to yourself.  So, just what standards do you use when deciding which laws to obey?  Do those standards apply to you or just other people?   :Nono: 

'nough said on this issue.  You can have the last word.   :Rockon: 



By the way, what's the bag limit on ethicals?

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## Justin Case

> *You're just the guy applying standards of behavior to others that you don't apply to yourself.*  So, just what standards do you use when deciding which laws to obey?  Do those standards apply to you or just other people?  
> 
> 'nough said on this issue.  You can have the last word.  
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, what's the bag limit on ethicals?


Really ?  don't be ignorant ,,  you don't know anything about me,,,  and the only reason I know you are a scofflaw without ethics is because you told everybody !!  LOL,,,   ahhh, Ignorance truly is bliss  ...

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## BENESSE

The ethicals are an endangered species and therefore protected by the law.

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## mosquitomountainman

> The ethicals are an endangered species and therefore protected by the law.


Any chance of a federal program to import some and restore them to their native habitat?

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## crashdive123

Would you guys quit nipping at each other's heals?  Time to move on!

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## mosquitomountainman

> Would you guys quit nipping at each other's heals?  Time to move on!


I quit 25 minutes ago.  It was definitely time to move on!   :toomany:

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## NightShade

I typically disagree with JC on his views on hunting.... but agree with him here... it's not cool to knowingly and willfully break game laws... and then brag about it on the internet..!?! 
Survival situation would be different, but normal hunting or fishing for either food or fun should see laws obeyed.

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## mosquitomountainman

> I am not the guy bragging about taking illegal animals,,,,  that would be you,,, that's pretty much a slap in the face to your fellow hunters that obey the wildlife laws,,,  now run along and play,


Quick question here ... Where did I say I took any animals illegally?

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## Justin Case

> Quick question here ... Where did I say I took any animals illegally?





> i honestly don't worry about it. if i'm camping,canoeing,or just fishing nearby. if i want to eat the fish i could careless about slot limits or what have you. i just eat the damn thing and don't worry about it. i honestly don't worry about 'their' rules.


Post #23,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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## Rick

For me it was your continued agreement with moutain1 that not adhering to the laws was somehow okay.

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## mosquitomountainman

> Post #23,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Uhm ...  Better check again.  Wasn't me!

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## mosquitomountainman

> For me it was your continued agreement with moutain1 that not adhering to the laws was somehow okay.


I understand that and I'm fine with it.  I think I've explained my views on the issue as well as I can and I thank you for your response here.  I don't expect everyone (or anyone for that matter) to agree with me.  I just didn't remember ever saying I had actually violated any game laws.


(Didn't say I'd never done so either!)  :sweatingbullets:   :Devil2:   :2: 

(Love the smiley assortment here!)

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## Justin Case

> Uhm ...  Better check again.  Wasn't me!


ok 27-31 then ,,  (all you mountain men sound the same today) lol

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## mountain1

thanks mmm for all the above post. 
i have just simply come to realize that folks simply cannot understand MT culture without actually living here in rural MT..
it is so foreign to most people that it is hard for them to understand.
oh and btw...i actually love the winters here. if it gets above 80 degrees i don't even want to go outside.

it seems that a lot of people simply have this great fear of doing anything that their not "supose" to do. 
i am a grow man and do not need anyone to tell me what i can or can't do. period...
i can't chat now...i've got 4 chickens to butcher.
have a good one.

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## BENESSE

I am speechless. And even that was hard to type.

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## Camp10

> I am speechless. And even that was hard to type.


See...I dont look so bad now when I post on hunting threads..do I?  Lol!

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## tsitenha

Ethics/honor is what a man gives to himself, a code/a way of thinking that he wants to live by. Sometimes it gets blurred and we, either side get to personal in our defence of it that we neglect to really see any other side.

Things that I do in my hunting/fishing way of life are one thing but if ever in a real (not perceived) survival situation they are different.

I think that we are clouding the two  :dodge:

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## BENESSE

Sho 'nough Camp.
It's all relative.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> See...I dont look so bad now when I post on hunting threads..do I?  Lol!


 Careful Camp! 
B thinks "ethical hunting" is an oxymoron.
You know.....like "jumbo-shrimp".......or "happily-married"! :2:

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Tsitenha is right I believe. As there is no Written, and widely accepted ethics on this point, It would seem to fall to each individual. Even in hunting what is considered unethical,even illegal, in some states/regions is considered both ethical AND legal in another.




> eth·ics   
> [eth-iks]  Show IPA
> plural noun
> 1.
> ( used with a singular or plural verb ) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.
> 2.
> the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
> 3.
> moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.
> ...


Taken from this site..........
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethics
Also from the same site..........



> e·thos   
> [ee-thos, ee-thohs, eth-os, -ohs]  Show IPA
> noun
> 1.
> Sociology . the fundamental character or spirit of a culture; the underlying sentiment that informs the beliefs, customs, or practices of a group or society; dominant assumptions of a people or period: In the Greek ethos the individual was highly valued.
> 2.
> the character or disposition of a community, group, person, etc.
> 3.
> the moral element in dramatic literature that determines a character's action rather than his or her thought or emotion.

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## mosquitomountainman

> ok 27-31 then ,,  (all you mountain men sound the same today) lol


Nope ... not there either.  I can give you a hint.   I didn't admit to doing anything illegal.  ... I just don't do that kind of stuff generally and never in writing!  I am sympathetic with mountain 1's position however as are many others in MT.

So, as far as I'm concerned it's time to drop it!   :dissolve:

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## Rick

Excellent suggestion. +1

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## Justin Case

> Nope ... not there either.  I can give you a hint.   I didn't admit to doing anything illegal.  ... I just don't do that kind of stuff generally and never in writing!  I am sympathetic with mountain 1's position however as are many others in MT.
> 
> So, as far as I'm concerned it's time to drop it!


so,,  if you live in Montana you get a pass ? ( :dissolve: )

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## Rick

No but there are several passes in Montana. Logan Pass, Bear Tooth Mt. Pass. A lot of passes.

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## Justin Case

> No but there are several passes in Montana. Logan Pass, Bear Tooth Mt. Pass. A lot of passes.


"Pass" the shovel,,  its getting deep in here !

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## BENESSE

I feel like passing a kidney stone already.

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## Rick

That's Ken's department.

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## Camp10

> Careful Camp! 
> B thinks "ethical hunting" is an oxymoron.
> You know.....like "jumbo-shrimp".......or "happily-married"!


She is pretty clear about her positions on most things, but I like her anyways! Lol!

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## Justin Case

> I feel like passing a kidney stone already.


Ken can help you with that  :dodge:

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## Rick

You gotta start typing faster.

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## klkak

I guess I'm just not very ethical.

I shoot ducks on a pond, breast them out then use the rest for trapping bait.

I see a doe with a fawn I shot the doe then the fawn and eat them both then use the guts, bones and skin for trapping bait.

If I found myself following a bear into its den I'd kill it, eat the meat, sell the hide and use the rest for trapping bait.

I'd shoot a wolf in a short second, sell the hide and leave the rest for the ravens and magpies.

And on, and on, and on....! 

Everyones ethics are different, oh well.

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## BENESSE

Nah...this is more painful than anything he's trying to pass.

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## Justin Case

> You gotta start typing faster.


no kidding ! I am starting to look like crash ! lol

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## Rick

He would have had less injuries that's for sure.

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## BENESSE

> Everyones ethics are different, oh well.


Yeah, that's what some doctors, lawyers, and politicians say. What a relief to know it's not just limited to them--this flexible ethics code.

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## crashdive123

> no kidding ! I am starting to look like crash ! lol


You should be so lucky. :Innocent:

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## klkak

> I think you are dreaming,,,   I'll bet its been years since you have gotten off the couch.


..... :Brickwall: .....!

Crash asked early on in this thread to hold the personal attacks.

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## klkak

> Yeah, that's what some doctors, lawyers, and politicians say. What a relief to know it's not just limited to them--this flexible ethics code.


I make no excuses or apologize for who I am or what I do. I'm either accepted as I am or not at all. It makes no difference to me.

If we were all the same there would be nothing to talk about or lear on this forum.

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## BENESSE

> I make no excuses or apologize for who I am or what I do. I'm either accepted as I am or not at all. It makes no difference to me.
> 
> If we were all the same there would be nothing to talk about or lear on this forum.


I am not in a position to accept or not accept. I merely observe and appreciate the opportunity to do that on a much larger scale than I ordinarily would in my immediate world.

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## Rick

To a large degree I'm with you B. I don't understand hunting yotes. I've asked questions regarding that a time or two in an effort to try to understand it but I just don't get it. Certainly the pelts but not just taking the hide and leaving the rest to rot, which is usually what happens. While I don't understand it, it's quite legal and most folks do it within the law so I don't have an objection to those that do it. I just don't understand the appeal.

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## klickitat

> I make no excuses or apologize for who I am or what I do. I'm either accepted as I am or not at all. It makes no difference to me.


I am with you brother. Although I am a bit more extreme than you, I set as many as I was allowed to on ignore. This way I do not have to read stuff from the peanut gallery.

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## LowKey

With yotes, at least around here, it is a population control thing. The appeal to hunting or trapping them is just to thin down their numbers. I guess if you hunt them for sport, you do so for the same reason you hunt any other strictly fur-bearing animal. I'm not quite sure what the attraction is there on a non-survival basis either. But eh...

I've seen coyotes bold as brass in playgrounds in the immediate Boston suburbs. I watched one chasing deer through my buddy's backyard, 15 minutes from Boston. The deer were kind of a surprise too, but housing density precludes hunting either animal.

They do eat pets (though a few less yap-yap dogs is ok by me). Thankfully there haven't been attacks on children. Only one in the last 50-odd years.

Around where I live they are a menace to caged or penned livestock. It's funny to see that some people have taken to keeping one or two llamas to protect their goats and sheep. They say it works. The llamas fight. Chicken wire doesn't keep coyotes out of the hen pen or rabbit hutches either. Around here people rely on small livestock for food. But to get rid of a coyote that causes damage, you either have to call in a State PAC shooter or wait for legal hunting season. You can't just shoot him yourself out of season (way too many eyes and way too many folks who would report 'shots fired', this being nanny-MA). And the coyote pretty much has to be caught in the act to be shot out of season even by a PAC officer. Good luck with that.

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## your_comforting_company

> To a large degree I'm with you B. I don't understand hunting yotes. I've asked questions regarding that a time or two in an effort to try to understand it but I just don't get it. Certainly the pelts but not just taking the hide and leaving the rest to rot, which is usually what happens. While I don't understand it, it's quite legal and most folks do it within the law so I don't have an objection to those that do it. I just don't understand the appeal.


In some cases, Rick, it is a hunters ethical duty in the face of other wildlife preservation. The same applies here to coyotes as wild hogs. Sustainability of the population is in all our best interest. Coyotes are eating up quails, herons, peoples pets... Wild hogs are destroying habitat that only 10 years ago was pristine deer hunting land.
Here, the law has changed this year so that a hunter can use electronic calls, bait, night vision, and spotlights to hunt coyotes.
It's only a matter of time before the same is done with wild hogs.. unless the trapping clans that have moved in can actually make some headway by thinning the herds.

I am not the hunter they are depending on, because personally, I won't shoot anything I don't intend to eat. That's my choice to make. It's my yoke to bear. It is simply the way I feel about it. Perhaps it is unethical for me to let a 300lb boar walk free, just because I don't want to eat it?

Perhaps I think people are more destructive and disgusting and nasty and invasive than the hogs...

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## Rick

I probably wasn't clear enough. I don't have a problem with any animal that presents itself as a threat to property or people. That's a given. I was mainly commenting on those that go out with specific intentions of hunting them. As I said, I'm not against it I just don't understand the appeal.

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## your_comforting_company

I certainly don't understand the "appeal".
Just pointing out that some people feel that it is their duty.

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## Rick

I can understand it, too, where populations are out of control. Your wild boar analogy is probably a good one. At least one I can understand and side with. That's not the case with yotes around here although we have a fair share of them. They look too much like a dog to me. It's hard for me to get past that. I'm the same with wolf, too. But I don't have them killing my cattle either.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Well Low key A simple search on coyote attacking children resulted in this.....
http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&so...+attacks+child

I knew there had been some, but nothing like what the search revealed. Personally I am shocked at how many there are. 3 in S. Calif. in 5 days was one result. Yeah, I will shoot any that come on the property. I can hear them every night while sitting right here typing on the PC. At least twice a week they come within 100 yards or less of my house. The nearest fence(that they've come to) is about 30 yards from where I am sitting right this second.

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## oly

In this state yotes has a bounty on them.
They seem to be getting bolder than before.

 06-30-2010, 10:51 PM    #18  
oly 
Lumpy chair made me do it 

I forgot to mention that I have been telling the wife that her little yapper is bear bait but at that location the coyotes came unusually close and I made the mistake of telling her that I was using her dog as coyote bate
I am still on that list
__________________
In my lumpy chair
http://my.imageshack.us/v_images.php

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## LowKey

I was speaking of attacks only in MA. There are many many documented attacks on children, especially west of the Mississippi but moving eastward with that extension of the original coyote range.

Rick, I can understand the harvesting of pelts as a means of making money. I can understand raising animals simply for their pelts too. In a managed fashion. I think I'd find it easier to kill a coyote than a bobcat or even a fisher. 

There is no easy answer for what is ethical in hunting. It's all situation based. What works here for game management in the Northeast won't necessarily work in the Midwest. The requirements for hunting in a well-supplied urban area don't always equate to a close-to-subsistence existence in a rural/wilderness area. I get that.

What is true though is that there are far too many people on this Earth for wild game to support. Humans have overpopulated beyond the point where the old Frontier survival ideals can be upheld. It's the unfortunate state of things today. I expect it only to get worse. Even in places like Montana, Washington, and even Alaska. Eventually. Hopefully long after I'm gone.

If everyone begins to think that anything is fair game, with no concern for the restock rates and prime breeding ages of the animals they hunt, let's guess how long the wild game will last. Sure there is an awful lot of junk science out there these days and an awful lot of public buy-in to bleeding heart appeals, but if there were no science at all? Just shoot em til they're gone...?<shrug>

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## Rick

I was just using that as a personal example in my response to B. If folks want or need to hunt them and do so within the confines of the law then I have no objection to it and certainly would not ask them to refrain. It's just a question I have that I can't answer.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

LK This one was in a suburb of NYC July 2010............

http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in...s-inside-video

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## rwc1969

I've considered killing coyotes because they are eliminating all the rabbits, them and the foxes and such have already eliminated all the pheasants. But, then again so have all the suburbs, golf courses, strip malls, and parking lots. People quit farming and trapping and all the pheasant disappeared, now the rabbits are going bye bye too.

If I could find a good use for a yote, fox or the like I'd kill it, but I don't hold anything against those that do.

even if they aren't killing off all the small game animals like skunk, opossum, raccoon, coyote and such do need to be kept in check otherwise they just spread disease.

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## rwc1969

I've got to wonder how these kids got attacked by coyotes. Were they soaked in bacon grease or something and left unattended?

Coyotes are very much scared of people.

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## your_comforting_company

I thought this link reflected the discussion pretty well. I hope it's okay to share it.
http://www.huntfairchase.com/

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## mountain1

> so,,  if you live in Montana you get a pass ? ()


what we do in MT is none of anyones buisness outside of MT.
just as it's none of my buisness what someone in any other state does.
i could care less what anyone does as long as their not hurting anyone.
MT is a free and open land. something that has been lost in 90% of this country. 
everywhere has been infected with rules and regulations that have been forced upon the puplic thru bureaucratic fools and legislation. without the consent of we the people.
their laws are theirs and are not mine...
you as a people have accepted this 'ruling class' to rule you. that is not my fault, it is yours.
and furthermore i have never said i have done anything "illegal". i simply said that if i were fishing and caught a fish that the 'almighty bureaucrats' said was protected or wasn't the proper size, i still would choose to have fish for supper. if folks have a problem with that, well i guess its to damn bad...
i don't ask for premission...
if im hungry and have caught a fish, i will eat that fish. i find nothing unethical about that at all. what i see are people that have been conditioned to fear 'authority' and do what they are told like good little slaves or else...
i actually am the most honest, true, person that someone could ever meet. i simply do not "do as i am told".
i do what i feel is right. as we all should do as long as were not harming anyone else.
 yes i am one of those pesky libertarians who actually believes in freedom not goverment control over all aspects of our lives including eating a damn fish.

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## crashdive123

I think everybody's position on this is pretty clear by now.  Let's quit picking at scabs and let it go unless there is something new and useful to add.  Thanks.

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## Rick

Don't get your knickers in a wad. Can't you discuss the issue without getting angry? If not then don't post. Hopefully, you feel better.

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## Rick

Dang it. would you stop doing that. You've been posting in front of me all night. And you only have 1 finger. That ain't right.

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## mountain1

> Don't get your knickers in a wad. Can't you discuss the issue without getting angry? If not then don't post. Hopefully, you feel better.


i am not angry nor was i ever. i don't get angry when i know i'm right.
i do however, get frustrated with grown men who follow the 'rules' because they are told to by the authorities. when every man should make his own decision without having to ask premission from 'authority'.
if everyone followed by these rules, this country would not exist...
all hail the king...ruler of land fish and beast. i will obey all ye' say.
i am your servent and you are my master. all hail the king...

it is called freedom. it is up to us to keep it!

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## crashdive123

> i am not angry nor was i ever. i don't get angry when i know i'm right.
> i do however, get frustrated with grown men who follow the 'rules' because they are told to by the authorities. when every man should make his own decision without having to ask premission from 'authority'.
> if everyone followed by these rules, this country would not exist...
> all hail the king...ruler of land fish and beast. i will obey all ye' say.
> i am your servent and you are my master. all hail the king...
> 
> it is called freedom. it is up to us to keep it!


Three things.

1.  Let it go.
2.  After serving over 20 years in the military, I darn sure won't be lectured here on the definition, or the cost of freedom.
3.  Let it go.

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## Justin Case

> I thought this link reflected the discussion pretty well. I hope it's okay to share it.
> http://www.huntfairchase.com/


Good post/link YCC,,  thanks  :Smile:

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## Survival Guy 10

> My philosophy is that if I kill it, I eat it.  If I catch a big bass and it's legal to eat, I eat it.
> 
> Same goes with deer and hogs.  I don't care much for the antlers as I don't hunt for my ego but rather for meat.
> 
> Now, I have my own set of rules.  I will not shoot a doe or sow if it has little ones with it.  If they are alone it's a diff. story.
> 
> I don't shoot the biggest hog, because it's just too much meat.  I like the smaller ones.
> 
> 
> I'm not in favor of the quality deer management.  If it's a legal kill or catch, I eat it.


i have the same rules except for we try to manage deer a little

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## JPGreco

There are two questions I would ask myself that would be the deciding factor on whether my actions were ethical.

1.  Is it good for that specific animal, or other animals?
2.  Are my actions absolutely necessary?

In the posts earlier about disregarding local laws on fish size, I wouldn't take fish smaller than the legal size.  Size laws are generally in affect to allow young fish to mature to mating ages.  Since taking a juvenile is not good for the fish and I could continue fishing till I caught one of legal size, my decision is simple.
In the case of deer, coyotes, and other pest animals, then taking one down is good for that animal and others.

The one caveat I would toss out there to anyone who chooses to not abide by regulations is this; what would happen if everyone did as you did?  It could dessimate a population.  Yes, I've never been to montana or most states, but I would rather fish a little longer or hunt a little longer to assure the preservation of animals.  And yes, I know the government has screwed the environment more than most individuals, but it is the same selfish train of thought that leads to this dessicration.

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## LowKey

Part of the problem with 'states doing their own thing' is that birds and animals don't see those state boundaries. Migratory birds are a big example of this. What happens in the MidWest during the spring and summer makes a really big difference in the bag limits here in the Northeast in the fall. They change every year here. If you shoot all those nesting hens cuz you felt like it, does that mean the guy farther out on the flyway gets nothing? So then, does he join you in your state and compete for what's left of your nesting hens? Or would you 'pass a law' that wouldn't allow out of state hunters? That would be regulation too.

While some may not like government regulation they should at least understand the biology. If you don't have respect for laws, at least have respect for the ability of the game to replenish itself. Just like you don't eat all your seed corn, save something to come back next year.

Also, if it weren't for two senators and the establishment of the Wildlife Restoration Act of 1937, none of us (with the probable exception of Alaska) would be hunting anything right now - except pest species. There are simply too many people for the natural landscape to sustain. Hunt out all the natural areas in uncontrolled harvest, decimating the gene pool, and all you'll have left is game farms where you'll pay through the nose to hunt. If you can get in at all. And if you think the government has regs, a private game farm will have more.

No territory is so vast that it can't be over-hunted. Such a belief led to the demise of the great bison herds. I think the US is pretty darn lucky to have the diversity of game is still has while allowing access for all who want to pursue the hunting lifestyle to go about it. I'm sure Winnie can enlighten us on what happened in the UK and Europe.

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## LowKey

Sorry bout that book.
My own personal belief on hunting is that, at least in our area, there is only a certain carrying capacity in the habitat we have left. With the winter, there will be death here anyway. Shouldn't the deaths be to someone's advantage? If the Wildllife Biologists have determined the carrying capacity and based on count know what the lethal overage is (and they do pretty well here), the taking of game is certainly ethical within those limits. 

I just got my hunting certs. Here it's a 12 hour course to get a license, but that course is accepted in all 50 states. While field safety is first and foremost, the biology of the game species and ethical, humane harvesting was the secondary message. I don't call that brainwashing. I call it making an informed decision.

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## MaineBear

I'm sorry, what was the thread question again? Oh yes, "ethical hunting." Ethics, like laws, are what defines us as both individuals and groups. Without individual ethics, or social contracts, there is no basis for law. For example, if you believed murdering a human was acceptable from a personal ethical stand point you certainly wouldn't pass a law against it. A law is simply an expression of an individual's ethical standards upon a larger group.

So, back to ethical hunting; are there absolutes, are there base levels that social pressure or conscience tells you cannot be crossed? While I think all of us (at least I HOPE all of us) would say it would be unethical to hunt or harvest another human there are some tribes in the South Pacific and Amazon that would argue it's both acceptable and natural. So, ethics are both socially instilled and individually applied.

Where am I going with this rant? Probably no where good, but I'm bored, tired, and just a little drunk.

So, while some of this thread's respondents see only black and white in the application of the law (as well as their own personal ethics), others see shades of gray (what is convenient). When it comes to ethics, both view points are correct - because ethics are a personal statement. However, when you expand personal ethics to law you have a totally other issue.

Maine Bear

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## BENESSE

MB, bored, tired or drunk notwithstanding, you've pretty much verbalized how I feel. Given a choice, I generally tend to err on the side of ethics.

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## Rick

I suppose it would be unethical not to. But then, even contemplating making an ethical decision when given a choice would, in itself, be an ethical dilemma if you were really an ethical person.

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## BENESSE

> I suppose it would be unethical not to. But then, even contemplating making an ethical decision when given a choice would, in itself, be an ethical dilemma if you were really an ethical person.


Not for me. 
_Never_ a dilemma when faced with a choice of making an ethical decision. To me, an ethical decision includes knowing the difference between a right and wrong.

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## Winnie

When I did used to hunt, it was only ever for the pot. In England there are few places that will support larger wildlife, such as Deer. Herding Deer are heavily managed because of this. solitary Deer are much more widespread and where the population is high can be a problem. We have no such thing as Deer season or tags to go and hunt. The deer are managed by Govt licensed conservators(ha!) or landowners who have the animals on their land and even then they have to apply for permission and recieve a qouta on the number of Stags and Hinds that can be harvested. Since some bright spark decided it would be "ethical" to release farmed Wild Boar, there is a considerable population of those environmental terrorists ripping up the Forest of Dean, and parts of Devon and in my opinion they need eradicating completely, the countryside simply cannot support such large animals in the wild anymore. Small game, Rabbits, hares, and game birds are easier. You just need to own land and shoot it yourself, have permission from a landowner or go to organised shoots. But then again, Great Britain has a land mass smaller than most of your States.Population density is 600-700 psq/m HOWEVER, the biggest problem is getting a *&$£$%&*@ firearm/shotgun certificate in the first place! Dogs are a good (now illegal) alternative, but you never heard that from me!

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## Rodney

As they say, Opinions are like azzholes, everybody has one. So no matter what you do or how you do it, small bass or big bass, there will always be somebody that has a problem with what your doing. I love fishing it relieves stress and it calms me. However as im getting older i don't fish much anymore ( for the fun ). if im in the mood to eat fish, ill go catch enough for a meal ( whatever size ) and release Pregnant fish and what i don't need. You have to keep in mind, as i have saw many times, there are people that do not respect wildlife or nature for that matter and i have saw them catch a huge amount of fish only to throw them up on the bank to die, or they leave them in a bucket to long and they die and they just throw them out, they have no intentions on eating any of the fish they catch, Anyhow the laws are set in place to keep people like this from running the fish to extinction or low population. People seem to forget that hunting and fishing was grocery shopping for some people back in the day of a more simpler time and still is for some people, but these days killing is a sport for size of fish or size of horns to hang on the wall. I have killed many deer and caught many fish, but i don't have one horn or fish mounted on my wall, nothing wrong with putting the horns up but i just don't do it. I try to live by the code, Only kill what you can eat. As much as i am Anti Government and hate the freedom restricting laws they impose, somethings just wouldn't be necessary if people just used common sense.
 Now, if your talking about the people that think you shouldn't ever catch a fish or eat a deer and are all against hunting period, then your gonna run into more and more of them in today's world. Instead of talking negative about them, ill just say well, if the world suffered some big catastrophic event and there were no more grocery stores and electricity, you wont have to worry bout them anymore cause they wouldn't last a month. Why? Because these are the people that have become so dependent on modern society they don't have a clue as to how to survive. Just laugh at them and make sure the day never comes that you yourself lose your natural instincts or your will to survive self sufficiently.

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## sushidog

Ethics are a real can of worms sometimes. Things are not as clear cut as one would think.

Would you poach if your family was starving? How much would you poach - enough just to keep you alive, stave off hunger, or to keep you well fed?

If I catch an armed intruder breaking into my house and I'm forced to kill him, would it be unethical not to eat the meat?

How about if my family is dying of starvation in a post apocolyptic world where food is almost non-existant?

How about if we just missed a few meals and food is scarce?

Are there certain parts you wouldn't eat under any circumstance (for moral, not health concerns in this discussion)?

What parts would you eat first? Last?

Would you eat your fill or just enough to stave off starvation? 

Would you season it?

Would you feel bad if you enjoyed it?

What if he killed your dog (or other family pet), would you eat it to save your life?

Could you kill your own dog (or your neighbor's dog, cat, etc.) to save your family's life?

Would you take it off, clean it and feed the meat to your family to sustain their lives?


Inquiring minds want to know.

Chip

P.S. Am I wierd to think of such things?

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## BENESSE

There are only two considerations for each one of us, and _I_ personally find them mutually exclusive.

1. When all's well with plenty of options (like now)
2. TEOTWAWKI when your only choice is to live or die (we've seen those through history)

Recognize and respect the difference. 
Be intellectually honest, first with yourself, then with others when you try blur the line.
It is a personal thing. Own it.

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## Rick

Yes, Chip, you're weird but it has nothing to do with the way you think. Just join the club. I knew I was in trouble when Weird Al Yankovic came on TV. Dad looked at mom and said, "THAT'S what we should have named him," and mom nodded in agreement. Why do you think they wanted to name me Yankovic?

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## hunter63

> Yes, Chip, you're weird but it has nothing to do with the way you think. Just join the club. I knew I was in trouble when Weird Al Yankovic came on TV. Dad looked at mom and said, "THAT'S what we should have named him," and mom nodded in agreement. Why do you think they wanted to name me Yankovic?



No, Not going there.......

Any way, this subject borders on religion or politics......Personel desision for each, and most people minds are NOT gonna be changed, as the same logic applies.

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## Mad Cow

Good on you. Just tell your complainers to get bent, and secretly feed them the game you collected. I do it to my hippie Parents all the time and get much joy telling the chicken they are munching on was actually the rabbit they saw getting fattened up in the cage out back.

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## SoCalTreker

In my own personal opinion I would only kill an animal if it was a survival situation or if I really needed the food for myself and my folks. I am not a fan of trophy hunting for personal reasons and I think that shooting an animal because it is a "pest" is a rather relative term.
I can understand if you go hunting in order to feed your family but I personally think "trophy" hunting is not a responsible way of conserving animals for the next generation to appreciate. When it comes to a big 10 point buck or the alpha of a wolf pack, the only shooting I do is with a camera.

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## Pocomoonskyeyes3

Well I have been in a personal TEOTWAWKI. I can assure you that at that time, *IF* you are hungry, there is ONLY one ethic that matters. That is to eat. My mother grew up during the Depression and told me of many animals they ate during that time that are illegal to kill now for ANY reason. Song birds and just about any kind of bird(including Egrets and Herons) except vultures, hawks, and owls. They never ate Dog or Cats, because there were other animals that would fill the pot. Had there not been...... well we can only suppose. Yet I look at some of these third world nations where starvation is rampant and notice there are no domestic dogs or cats....only wild ones.

I can promise you this, if it were the choice of starving or eating the last of a species, you can kiss that species good bye. Does that make me unethical? Probably to some of you.

I can also assure you that *IF* you are hungry enough, law does not matter. Just look at poaching in England when all the animals were considered the King's Personal property. People still poached them anyway.

As for "Pest" species, there is only one in my area that is not "Normal". That is the Coyote. It has slowly migrated and thrived because it is an opportunistic species. I have No qualms with putting a bullet in one, Because they are an introduced species... even if They introduced themselves. No different to me than setting a mouse trap. I didn't invite them here. I didn't "introduce" them here either, nor did the government. My landlord loves the rabbits and doves here on the property, but if I get hungry enough...... :Oops:  we'll have rabbit or dove for dinner.

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## sushidog

Maybe you can share a good recipe for Coyote stew then?

Being a Cajun by birth, I've taken my share (and probably yours) of everything that swims or crawls. However I've never taken anything out of season (though I've known quite a few subsistence hunters who have) but that's a different issue, as they live quite differently from us. However I don't think I could pull the trigger on the last known member of a species. I think I'd take one of my own kind first - or turn the gun around. I've known a few that "needed killin" who I would happily show the kindness. If I was hungry enough, I could probably choke them down too. Like combat, one can only know how one will behave when faced with the situation at hand.

Chip

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## BENESSE

> Good on you. Just tell your complainers to get bent, and secretly feed them the game you collected. I do it to my hippie Parents all the time and get much joy telling the chicken they are munching on was actually the rabbit they saw getting fattened up in the cage out back.


Why, you're a riot! A regular jokester.
I'd love to serve you a thing or two and say it's liverwurst on toast.  :Whistling:

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## Mad Cow

Well, the fact that there are animals in the woods to look at is because hunters buy tags, the majority of whom hunt because they can, not because they have to.

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## Mad Cow

> Why, you're a riot! A regular jokester.
> I'd love to serve you a thing or two and say it's liverwurst on toast.


Been there, done that. I have eaten big fat juicy bugs, worms and things that crawl on the ground. Unless its poo, I will try just about anything.

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## sushidog

Hey, don't knock poo! Cat poo coffee is some of the best I've ever had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak

Chip

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## DOGMAN

Wow...how did I miss this thread....Not all Montanans share these same beliefs, so I wish I would have got involved in this debate earlier....and go ahead- try to challenge my Montana creds....lol.....

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## crashdive123

Good to see you around Dogman.  Most of the Montanans you refer to got scared off by this thread.  I think they must have moved there from France.

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