# Self Sufficiency/Living off the Land or Off the Grid > Hunting & Trapping >  Need some assistance. Keeping it legal in PA.

## Wise Old Owl

Hi guy's I have been here a while on the blog and I am currently working on my Nuisance Wildlife License for PA.  In a discussion at happy hour someone dropped a bombshell on me - that Rim-fire and Airguns are the only thing legal for trap and uthanization. And honest most townships wont allow air either. My old Air .22 with Gamo shot is worn out. So I am here to look at suggestions. 

Here is what I found. From the PA Game commission (any help would be appreciated) 

 (3)  Take small game, furbearing animals, crows or wildlife with the following devices:

     (i)   A manually operated or semiautomatic rimfire rifle or manually operated rimfire handgun .22 caliber or less.

     (ii)   A manually operated or semiautomatic air rifle or manually operated air handgun between .177 and .22 caliber, inclusive, that propels single-projectile pellet or bullet ammunition. BB ammunition is not authorized.

   (4)  Kill an animal legally caught in a trap with the following devices:

     (i)   A manually operated or semiautomatic rimfire rifle or manually operated rimfire handgun .22 caliber or less.

     (ii)   A manually operated or semiautomatic air rifle or manually operated air handgun between .177 and .22 caliber, inclusive, that propels single-projectile pellet or bullet ammunition. BB ammunition is not authorized.

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## randyt

once you catch the animal can you relocate to a different area and kill it there?

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## Wise Old Owl

That's a grey area - maybe.  They expect me to bury it. I might have to buy some co2 and a box.

I have run into Diseased or sick wildlife on occasion, not going to say but if you catch it - I need a better plan.


Actually I was looking for suggestions on what to buy and ammo.

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## Rick

I would think your state pest control board, state pest management assoc (or whatever it's called) or your attorney would be your best source of information to keep you legal. I'm sure any or all of us have might have an opinion but that and $4 would get you a cup of java but might not keep you from getting a citation or worse. I would think game laws and laws specific to pest management might be different but what do I know?

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## randyt

to be honest when I catch, I then relocate and release if it is a wild animal. I have made a box from sheet metal that would go over a live trap. then a hose was went from a auto exhaust to the box. That was for a customer.

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## Wise Old Owl

> to be honest when I catch, I then relocate and release if it is a wild animal. I have made a box from sheet metal that would go over a live trap. then a hose was went from a auto exhaust to the box. That was for a customer.


That became illegal a few years back and to be honest I am catch and release. I can navigate the rules, I am good at that. And Rick I have two lawyers. 

Again I am looking for suggestions on a easy to use rimfire (easy to clean) and best ammo for the job should I need it.

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## randyt

I have many rifles to chose from but if I were buying a new one for your specific purpose. I would chose a cricket single shot in .22 lr. At the range you are shooting I would use any 22 lr ammo available. Probably cci minimags.

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## Wise Old Owl

> I have many rifles to chose from but if I were buying a new one for your specific purpose. I would chose a cricket single shot in .22 lr. At the range you are shooting I would use any 22 lr ammo available. Probably cci minimags.


Bolt action for raccoons? Guess I better not miss! Nice choice, easy to clean?

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## randyt

I think it's easy to clean, pull the bolt and run a patch through. Should work fine, what are you on distance? five feet? what are you using for a trap? coon cuffs, box trap, leghold?

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## Wise Old Owl

As for the ammo CCI is for plinking and targets. The ammo may not work in some guns,  why not Lapua/SK High Velocity Hollow Point?

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## Wise Old Owl

> I think it's easy to clean, pull the bolt and run a patch through. Should work fine, what are you on distance? five feet? what are you using for a trap? coon cuffs, box trap, leghold?


Uh if I am releasing yes you are right but I would need 75 feet for Grey Squirrel.

OH box traps and soon to be ordered 4 inch body trap.

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## randyt

At the distance you are shooting that would be fine, I have never found coon hard to kill. I did not know CCI was for target and plinking, it's been my go to for hunting for years.

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## randyt

> Uh if I am releasing yes you are right but I would need 75 feet for Grey Squirrel.
> 
> OH box traps and soon to be ordered 4 inch body trap.


what do you mean 75 feet for grey squirrel? Coon need about three miles distance to bee released otherwise they can find their way back. The distance I'm talking about is when you shoot the animal, walk up to the animal and it is a few feet from muzzle of gun to animal. I cannot see why one shot is all that is needed.

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## Wise Old Owl

got it - I was concerned about the low powder ammo.  The ammo is labeled that way. If it works that's fine.

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## randyt

I would not use CB caps, I would use a 22 lr, even thunderbolts.

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## Wise Old Owl

OK Cool what do you think of the Henry Survival AR-7 .22 ?

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## Wise Old Owl

> what do you mean 75 feet for grey squirrel? Coon need about three miles distance to bee released otherwise they can find their way back. The distance I'm talking about is when you shoot the animal, walk up to the animal and it is a few feet from muzzle of gun to animal. I cannot see why one shot is all that is needed.



Missed this post on the refresh. My apologies. Actually I send them far more miles to stay alive where they can hang out at an unmentioned state park near me. The gun is for unsolvable trap shy, mammals that are diseased that need to be put down... and squirrels that have done a lot of damage around my home.

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## randyt

I have one, seems to be a little picky on ammo. It should be fine, probably would need to be kept clean to keep it functioning. Dispatching should only take one shot, I have never had to take two.

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## Old Professor

I grew up in western Pa and spent more hours than I could count right up through college roaming my uncles large farm with a 22 of various action types and either solid point or hollow point ammo ( manufacture did not matter)  When the Winchester WMR came out I shot a bunch of it but generally speaking, for your use, it was too expensive.     I killed everything from snakes and rats to feral dogs with no trouble. I would try different makes to see what is most accurate in your gun.  I currently have a Ruger 10/22 TakeDown which is extremely handy and very accurate. Aguela offers subsonic 22 ammo that I could recommend  for close range dispatch.

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## Wise Old Owl

Huge thank you... If others want to weigh in that's great.

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## Wise Old Owl

> I grew up in western Pa and spent more hours than I could count right up through college roaming my uncles large farm with a 22 of various action types and either solid point or hollow point ammo ( manufacture did not matter)  When the Winchester WMR came out I shot a bunch of it but generally speaking, for your use, it was too expensive.     I killed everything from snakes and rats to feral dogs with no trouble. I would try different makes to see what is most accurate in your gun.  I currently have a Ruger 10/22 TakeDown which is extremely handy and very accurate. Aguela offers subsonic 22 ammo that I could recommend  for close range dispatch.


Thanks. 12345678910 characters.

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## Old Professor

I had the  Henry AR-7  takedown survival rifle for several years (lost it in my divorce but that another story)  I really liked it except for the peep sight. To me, the greatest advantage was that it would float if you dropped it in to the water.  Accuracy was sufficient for your purpose.  And it was finicy about what ammo it was fed.  Personally, in your situation, I would choose a bull barrel semi auto 22 like the Ruger 10/45  or the Browning Buck Mark. Easier to carry, very accurate, shoots the more powerful long rifle cartridge.  I like the Ruger because the barrel is threaded and I can use my suppressor with subsonic ammunition.
Very much preferred if you are doing your control work in a built up area. And Penna made  suppressors legal to hunt with last year. Using a hand gun, carried concealed, attracts much less attention, same with subsonic ammunition.  If you do not already have a CCW license, go to the sheriffs department and apply . Tell them the reason I just stated and you should have no trouble getting one.

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## kyratshooter

I have stayed out of this one for several reasons but the term "been there, done that" comes to mind as one. 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...uot-discussion

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...-your-thoughts

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## Old Professor

I hear you , kyratshooter!           My uncle was dog (And other animals) warden in his township in western Penna. We disposed of the animals, mostly dogs in an abandoned strip mine pit on my grandfathers farm. The only gun we used was a .22 rifle. Never needed more than one shot, even on the biggest and meanest dog. I helped and some times was the trigger man (or boy as the case usually was back then) I do not know how many dogs we put down but it was dozens and dozens (Cats too).

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I have not found any of the local varmintry to be above the killing threshold of a 10/22 or 22/45 with federal 22 lr hollow points.  Either can be had in stainless and the cleaning requirements are minimal.  In fact my 10/22 stainless will not work properly if clean.

Alan

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## kyratshooter

I am on the opposite end of the expectations spectrum.

I do not trust a .22lr to effectively kill anything larger than a squirrel or rabbit.

I had the big raccoon war already and killed dozens trying to keep them out of the chicken run.  Fought the  coyotes during that same time period.  A .22lr failed miserably on both.

One failure I could understand but the .22 failed time after time even with well placed shots, and much of my shooting was at dimly lit targets that were moving.  Not a prayer there.

That was when I bought the Handi-rifle barrel in .357.

Dispatching one in a tender trap might be a different matter.  That shot is done from inches away and the critter can not escape after being wounded.  I killed a couple that way and even stepped up to the 38 spl for that job.

I am really at a loss as to if this thread is about the legalities of use, pest control licensing requirements and equipment, or most effective caliber?

At any rate, if it were legal in PA, I believe if it were myself in this situation I would buy a can set up for either 22 or 9mm and write the whole thing off as a business expense on my taxes and eliminate this endless droning.

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## Old Professor

Kyratshooter,  I was interpreting his question as  dispatching an animal already in a trap, not something like a fox or coyote or coon at a distance and possibly running away. Whole different circumstance then and I will agree with you whole heartedly, that a 22 long rifle comes up short in that situation. I would not even trust the 22 WMR. More likely to choose a .17 something. When I was a kid in junior high and high school, I ran a live rabbit trap line for the DNR.  Even with no firearm, I would get flack from some neighbors.  I was paid $1.25 per rabbit!  That was 60 years ago!  I wonder what they would pay today if the rate stayed the same with the inflation rate? I remember thinking it was good money back then.

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## Wise Old Owl

> I have stayed out of this one for several reasons but the term "been there, done that" comes to mind as one. 
> 
> http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...uot-discussion
> 
> http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...-your-thoughts


Thanks - now I feel like an Airhead. I thought I had posted this once before - But that was more about air rifles, This licensing  is nothing short of a PITA. Now I have to do it, I have my own kiester to cover. 

I am all for looking this all up - and have, but experience has shown me that bouncing this of your group I am going to get a lot more info, that I was not aware of!

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## Wise Old Owl

> I hear you , kyratshooter!           My uncle was dog (And other animals) warden in his township in western Penna. We disposed of the animals, mostly dogs in an abandoned strip mine pit on my grandfathers farm. The only gun we used was a .22 rifle. Never needed more than one shot, even on the biggest and meanest dog. I helped and some times was the trigger man (or boy as the case usually was back then) I do not know how many dogs we put down but it was dozens and dozens (Cats too).


You are aware if you are on your property - you can do what you want. If you are providing a service... well it's a whole different thing.  Today there are rules and fines for not using the right tools just to put an animal to sleep, with CO2. 

I still thank you for your help.

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## Wise Old Owl

kyratshooter a .22LR won't dispatch a coon with a well placed shot?

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## kyratshooter

Everyone seems obsessed with the "well placed shot" when it is an abstract concept, much like the "perfect woman".

The .22 has managed to take down some game far beyond its potential, but generally that is an accident rather than a "well placed shot".  Add to that the fact that not many people count the misses, or the badly placed shots.  All they remember are the one in a thousand "well placed shots".

Now keep in mind that I am not talking about killing a coon one time long ago, I am speaking about killing several dozen 'coons over the course of a couple of months.  Killing two a night was not uncommon and two nights without a kill was unusual.  I was virtually over-run with the critters!

I can not speak for the experiences of everyone, but I know that I can place three shots into less than an inch at 100 yards with any of a dozen of my own well tuned rifles.  Several of my 22 rifles will shoot inside a quarter at 25 yards.  I even own a 10/22 that has been tricked out and carries a fluted Green Mountain barrel and will shoot inside an inch at 100 yards, on paper.

That exact same rifle has failed me miserably at obtaining the "well placed shot" on a moving 'coon under the security lights, at 3am, at only 25 yards range.  I am definitely not going into an attic to dispatch a "coon with that rifle. 

By "failing" I mean that there was a good hit on the vitals of the animal and it still managed to run away or drag itself away to die or not die where I could not recover them.  I do know that I killed several 'coons that were carrying more than one 22 bullet in them. 

.22 does OK if the 'coon is in a tender trap and the range is 3 inches.  That might be exactly what is needed for this "extermination use" and I would not hesitate to purchase a good 22 pistol with a suppressor as a business tool for just this use, "coons in cages and squirrels in the attic.  

I would not go into a storage building to dispatch an irritated raccoon when it was unrestrained with that same weapon.  The last big boar 'coon I caught tore a tender trap all to pieces!  That trap looked more like a round tomato cage than a rectangular animal catching device.  I know coon hunters that have been half eaten by treed coons and have lost 75 pound dogs to the critters when they get riled up, and I always figured that shooting one with a 22 was a excellent way to irritate them. 

I persisted in trying to make the 22 work as my chicken protector far longer than I should have due to my living situation.  I am not in the suburbs but I do have neighbors that would come see what was going on if I started blazing away with multiple "follow up shots" after the "well placed shot" failed to stop the varmint.

My 'coon rifle ended up being a .357 barrel for the Handi-rifle with illuminated cross hairs and a couple of other add on devices, shooting 158 grain SWC bullets at 850fps, probably a little faster from the rifle barrel.  It was not more accurate than the .22, seeking that "well placed shot", but I knew that if I got a .38 slug in their body cavity they would be dead by morning.

Were I a licensed exterminator it would be a bunch of tender traps, carry the catch out of sight and mind of the homeowner, then dispatch them in the most efficient manner possible, that *method being completely and totally irrelevant*.

I once knew a homeowner that caught squirrels in his attic in a tender trap and then set the trap under the exhaust pipe of his Cadillac.  It worked every time and violated no firearms laws, unlike the search for the "well place shot".

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## randyt

From my reading of early accounts, many woodsman preferred a 38 special over a 22 lr. Certainly not in all cases but in many.

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## Old Professor

My son -in-law has a problem every summer with coons, opossims , red sqirrels and skunks. He traps them with a Havahart wire cage trap.  He keeps an old 60 gt  cooler under the downspout which keeps the cooler full of water. Trap something you want rid off, like skunks; pick up trap and immerse it the cooler. No smells, no noise, animal is dead in 5 minuites or so. The trap fits nicely in the cooler and is heavy enough to keep it under.

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## Old Professor

When I  was a small kid,  pre-school, My uncle always carried a S&W 38 Special around the gardens and when the went fishing (Rattlers along the Allegheny River) I do not remember him carrying a .22LR until I was in high school and college.   I used to beg him to let me shoot a round or two of the 38 sp. Occasionally he would!   When I turned 18, I got a Hi Standard .22 LR and it was off to the races !  I was trusted to roam the 270 ac. farm with out supervision.  I killed my first groundhog about two weeks later with a fast draw when I surprised one in a swale. My draw and trigger work beat him to his hole.

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## ScopedIn

Well, as I cannot speak on the firearm aspect of this thread for a certain reason, I can speak of the grass on the other side of the fence. Air rifles.

To put it simply, you can take down just about anything with an air rifle, seriously. For small game like squirrels, a .177 will do with good shot placement(head/heart shot). A .22 air rifle will take down raccoons and even slightly larger game with good shot placement as well, you can get an air rifle that is shooting at sonic velocity though I wouldn't recommend it. 

Now onto the big boys.

Many folks have no clue that you can get an air rifle in .50 caliber. Yes, that big ol chunk of lead most of us dream of shooting. The only differences, no casing or powder or license to get the rifle. It can get expensive, the Sam Yang(?) Dragon Claw can shoot both .50 lead slugs and arrows. The lead slugs have enough velocity and fpe to drop a wild hog in it's tracks. It will fire an arrow with enough speed and power to bury it fully into the side of an Australian water buffalo and kill it within a few minutes. They also don't have the cannon report that a powder burning .50 has since it runs off of high compressed air, 3000+ PSI and your still getting about ten shots per fill. Carry a small SCBA tank in the vehicle and you can refill at least twice.

Plus the have calibers in between, .357, 9mm, .20, .25, .30, and several more. They even have air powered shotguns, though the ones I've seen have very little shot in the shells and have poor spread pattern, useless passed about 10 yards.

My point is, short of going through hoops to get a firearm, nothing beats an air rifle. Not only can you pest control but you can do it quietly without buying specialty subsonic ammo or suppressors. There is a dozen types of pellets for everything from paper punching to hunting specific pellets. You don't have to go to a range to get in some target practice either, hell I know quite a few folks who even have a range set up in their basement or other indoor areas of their house. Air guns fill a niche in the market that firearms just can't. At 10 meters, 33 feet, there are air rifles putting .177 pellets through the same hole 9/10 times.

Making a choice though, that's the difficult part here. There are several different power plants to choose from. The old fashioned multi pumps, break barrel spring piston, break barrel air piston, Co2 powered, PCP powered in several different action types. Then you have price range, anywhere from $60 for a target shooter and small pest control, up to $1000+ for super high quality long distance hunting air rifles. I've seen folks with $300-$500 .25 caliber air rifles hitting pigeons with accurate kill shots at nearly 200 yards with heavy wind. Then there are folks who kill raccoons and 20-50 yards with a break barrel .22 air rifle with a single shot.

Never rule out an air rifle, they have come a very long way in accuracy and power. My own air rifle, a Ruger Impact Max in .22, will put a 1/4" dent in the steel plate I plink on. Granted it's only about 1/8" mild steel, but even so that is great performance with only a 14.3g hollow points pellet at 800+ fps.

I seriously recommend giving them a chance, before going to a firearm. At the very least, if it doesn't suit your needs you will still have a fun target gun you can shoot in your yard and take out pests like squirrels and such.

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## Chī

In Pennsylvania one must use a .22 caliber or smaller bullets to dispatch a trapped animal if it a handgun it cannot be semi automatic, only manually operated handguns. I would know I bought a ruger mk 4 hunter jut to find out if can't use it for hunting or trapping in pa, also I have never had a problem dispatching anything racoon size or smaller with a .22 short  (in a trap) I carry  long, shots and hp all hollow points. When primitive trapping I would use a club, but you always feel that extra guilt, at least I do anyway. Only hunted one coon with a .22 with no problem but I might hesitate to try again, I would be so ashamed of myself if I couldn't retrieve an animal I hunted. But I realize there is a first time for everything.

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## Chī

A well placed shot is only as abstract as you make it, in my opinion if you got the vitals it's a well placed shot weather it be a .50cal or a nerf dart. I like to get as perfect of hides possible so I'm a well placed shot kind of guy. But it's not going to matter like you said if your under equipped. For trapping I assure a pocket full of .22lr and shorts will be all you need, when hunting though  I wouldn't hesitate to go bigger.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Back in the Mother Earth News days, I had some ducks.  They lived in a net wire fenced duck yard with chicken wire tied to it as well.  The skunks would come and kill one every night.  They would entice a duck to come to the fence and stick its head through and then eat its head off.  I guess ducks have a short memory because another one would be dead the next day.  In addition to dead ducks there were dead skunks every night too.  There was an empty water trough about 15 yards from the duck pen and I put an old lawn lounger in it and slept there waiting for the skunk raid.  The most I killed was 8 in one night.  I killed skunks every night (many times multiples) until all the ducks were dead.  I remember wondering where in the Hell all the skunks were coming from.  My weapon of choice was a 20 ga shotgun with birdshot.  It killed the skunk at 15 yards instantly.  For those of you unfamiliar with skunk hunting, it is VERY important to make instant kills on skunks with the first shot.  To kill skunks wasn't the only reason I was sleeping in the water trough.....

We never had many coons in our area but once in a while a few would find a hole in the feed room.  That's pretty aggravating.  It's easy to catch a coon in a coyote trap but nearly impossible to keep him in it.  There were a bunch of three legged coons waddling around before I git the problem sorted out.  Coyotes didn't come around much either.  I shot them on sight, called them and regular gunfire around the place made it known they were unwelcome.  The pack of mongrel dogs wasn't very inviting either...  I had two big black labs that would run down and kill coyotes on their own for fun.  

But, for most varmintry the 22 lr was the quickest and easiest to use.  Another good round if shotgun range was out of the question was a little scope sighted 30 Carbine.  It's accurate and... well, it's accurate.

The whole issue of licensing and laws concerning pest removal is really kinda foreign to me, so I haven't addressed it.  Once, (well more than once) an armadillo was digging up the place.  I told my next door neighbor one afternoon, "Hey, if you hear something that sounds like a 22 shot.... it probably was".  He said he'd been trying to get a shot at it too...

I guess in PA the agenda is not ridding the place of pests but rather generating revenue from those trying to do it.

Alan

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