# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  survival gun?

## old fart

what are ya'lls idea of a survival gun?, i have narrowed my selection to two. i have a 12 gauge pump with a pistol grip and forarm that is short and which packs a punch for self defense and critter gittin but is a little heavy. but i've also got a bolt action 22lr rifle, it would get small game ok and its light but self defense against larger critters would be iffy. i have a 22lr/22mag pistol, but i would need to be close and i see it only as a back up weapon. whats ya'll idea?, now i do own several more weapons including single barrel shotguns which are lighter but multiple shots are a good thing on a survival gun. i'm talking about a gun to overall do all that needs to get done to survive. i know there are trade offs for each type weapon, but which gives the overall best help to a person?, thanks.

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## Rick

You've just asked one of the two most asked questions on the forum. The other being what is the best survival knife. Below are a few, just a few, of the many, many threads on the "best" survival weapon. Enjoy. 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...urvival+weapon

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...urvival+weapon

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...urvival+weapon

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...urvival+weapon

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...urvival+weapon

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## peter

I like those over & under shotgun rifle combo. But after saying that, i don't have any guns these days{Australian gun laws are a pain in the arse}.

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## natertot

I don't believe in owning weapons......I believe in owning firearms which is a constitutional right!

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## Sourdough

> but multiple shots are a good thing on a survival gun.



why.........?

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## Old Professor

I started to answer this question earlier today and then got distracted, so I will try it again.  Geography plays a big part in survival gun choice as different locals have different animals, two and four legged that you might need protection against or wish to harvest for food. At the simplist level a shotgun is a most versitile survival gun. Shot for small game that runs or flys, buckshot or slugs for larger game or protection from humans. Problem with shotguns as survival guns is: short range, ammo weight/bulk, gun weight/kick. I do like the rifle/shotgun combos, especially the drillings (two shotgun bbls and one rifle bbl.) but they are expensive and heavy. Big advantage  to shotgun & rifle /shotgum combos is the availability of sub gauge adaptors that let you fire smaller gauge shotgun shells or rifle cartridges from the larger bore/caliber bbls. My dream survival gun would be 12 ga shot gun under a 308 Win or a 7x57 Mauser and as many sub gauge adapters as i could find that fit. This make scrounging ammo a lot easier.
If two legged predators are your concern, then something along the lines of an assult rifle/caribine in a .223,or 308. would fit the bill. If I wasn't expecting a lot of human conflict, I would look ar the Ruger Mimi 14 or Mini 39 or a KelTec that folds into a small, easy to carry package. The problem with these guns is that they are semi-autos and without fire discipline, you can deplete your ammo supply very quickly. For that reason some reccomend a leveraction carbine over a semi-auto.
If you expect to see a lot of human conflict - you are in the wrong place to survive!!
I personally have many quams about a handgun as a survival gun, although I am sure that I would carry at least one.  Few people are really good with a handgun, either for hunting or self defense. a long gun, while heavier is likely to be more accurate and have greater range. My choice is an H&R single shot with a scope in .357 Mag. With the correct choice of ammo, I can take small game like rabbits  or larger game up to deer or small bear. And it uses the same ammo as my snub nose .357 Mag which I will also be carrying.  Some where in there I will have a .22 LR and /or .22 Mag in a rifle/pistol or both.  Thus armed , I believe that I would be able to handle my survival need for fire arms in MY Geographic area.

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## Rick

So that's, what, seven perfect weapons you need plus adapters?

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## Sparky93

I was thinking the other day, why a survival gun? Why not a survival bow? You can take any animal with a bow that you can with a gun and more. With a bow fishing kit you can shoot fish. I can stick a frog in the head at 20 yards, squirrel, deer, moose, bear, rabbit. You can even get recurve bows that break down and will fit in your pack, granted I've never used a recurve, only compound. But with practice I feel they could be used to great effect. I got a light rigged onto my bow for night fishing and frog sticking, plus you can shine rabbits eyes (or any other night critter) and stick them. You can make your own arrows in a pinch unlike bullets....(ramble... ramble... ramble....)

*edit
And this thought wasn't due to "Hunger Games" haven't seen it yet, thought about it a while back when I was shooting bull frogs with my bow...

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## Winter

In the space of one arrow I can have 17 22lr. I was shooting my re-curve for the first time yesterday and all I could think of was, "A 22 is better" lol.

An arrow may or may not survive 17 shots.

SD asked, "why are multiple shots better", I think it's better to have higher capacity because it's less work when it's time to work. Say you break a finger, which I've done a few times in the woods. Racking a bolt will suck. A 10+ rd magazine in your rifle eases that pain and, the ammo is with the gun.

I absolutely love Ruger #1's. I badly want one in 45-70. I would hunt with it, but I wouldn't adventure with it. If I had a choice in a situation, I'd like to have an AR, but honestly, anything will work. I wouldn't feel naked with a lever 22 or a mosin.

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## Rick

May I suggest that you stop doing whatever is causing you to break fingers? If you do it once, okay. It happens. But twice should be an, "Oh, snap!" moment. (get it? Broken finger? Oh, snap moment?) I slay myself.

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## Winter

Broken may not be accurate, sprained is probably closer. Firewood gathering has it's dangers, especially when you are clumsy.

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## hunter63

Ya'know, I was running out of room for the 'perfect survival" guns....Till the robbery...The problem is that we need a perfect "survivial situation" to fit all those guns.......everybody keeps changing their mind....

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## Old Professor

Rick, yes there are seven possible "perfect" survival guns in my post but part of the point of the my post is that there isn't one "perfect survival gun", it all depends on your individual needs and the area where you live.

Sparky93, I also considered a bow/arrow of some type as PART of a survival armoury. However the OP ask about a survival gun, so that was what I addressed. A longbow would be my choice for survival, followed by a recurve bow. Never would I consider a compound bow or cross bow, because they are too difficult to maintain and make arrows for. I think in a survival situation I would carry a long bow for hunting with a handgun as back up because I have been a archer all my life and own and shoot several longbows. Unless I am in really thick cover I wouldn't want to depend on a bow/arrow for defense as most any firearm out ranges an arrow and is probably more accurate.

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## billdawg

As someone said above, your situation will dictate.  If I'm taking a gun to head to the hills for, to hide out, during a civilization break down, I'm taking a .22. Light, easy to use(wife & kids shoot it well), and I can take a ton more ammo.
I do like the bow idea too, as you can re-use arrows, & even make your own if need be.

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## Rick

OP - I was just pullin' your chain. It was a good post.

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## Sourdough

> SD asked, "why are multiple shots better", I think it's better to have higher capacity because it's less work when it's time to work. Say you break a finger, which I've done a few times in the woods. Racking a bolt will suck. A 10+ rd magazine in your rifle eases that pain and, the ammo is with the gun.



I continue to quest for the perfect firearm for "ME". I just off'loaded $3,150.00 worth of surplus firearms at the last gunshow. I have no interest in defense from humans. I rarely see any now, and have never another human in the last 42 year when walking off the back of my property and into the wilderness.

For me, for my needs it is the lightest firearm with the lightest cartridge that will put food into the camp pot. It must hit a nickle 99% of the time at 15 yards. In am not a tack driver.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> I continue to quest for the perfect firearm for "ME". I just off'loaded $3,150.00 worth of surplus firearms at the last gunshow. I have no interest in defense from humans. I rarely see any now, and have never another human in the last 42 year when walking off the back of my property and into the wilderness.
> 
> For me, for my needs it is the lightest firearm with the lightest cartridge that will put food into the camp pot. It must hit a nickle 99% of the time at 15 yards. In am not a tack driver.


 Actually.....in my neck of the woods, that .22 cricket that you were talking about in another thread, would be about the most practical. Keep some fishing line and some hooks, with some extra ammo in the stock, and you'd be set for the two most abundant "dinners" around here. Squirrel and catfish.

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## Rick

You can get pretty close to ptarmigan so a .22 would do it wouldn't it? Maybe some shot for things like otters, raccoons, geese and ducks?

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## Old Professor

I just found and bought one of my survival gun wants. A Savage Model 24 in 22 Mag over a 3 inch 20 ga shotgun bbl. Bought it on gunbroker.com. Just like one I owned back in the early 1960's and foolishly sold.  While it can shoot rifled slugs, I am also looking into adapters for firing rifle cartridges from the shotgun bbl. From the 22Mag bbl, i can also shoot Winchester Rin Fire cartridges, which are roughly equivilent to the 22 LR cartridge but the case size is that of the 22 Mag.

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## hunter63

> I just found and bought one of my survival gun wants. A Savage Model 24 in 22 Mag over a 3 inch 20 ga shotgun bbl. Bought it on gunbroker.com. Just like one I owned back in the early 1960's and foolishly sold.  While it can shoot rifled slugs, I am also looking into adapters for firing rifle cartridges from the shotgun bbl. From the 22Mag bbl, i can also shoot Winchester Rin Fire cartridges, which are roughly equivilent to the 22 LR cartridge but the case size is that of the 22 Mag.


Nice find......I use a .410 adapter in my 20 ga m24 as I was given a bucket full of .410 ammo, and would like to pick up a couple of more adaptors.

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## SARKY

A 12 or 20 ga pump with a barrel insert or 2 might fill your need.

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## kyratshooter

Who told you that in a "survival situation" you were going to have a choice of tools?

Once again, you guys are using the word "survival" as an adjective rather than a verb.

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## Sparky93

> Nice find......I use a .410 adapter in my 20 ga m24 as I was given a bucket full of .410 ammo, and would like to pick up a couple of more adaptors.


I'm curious as to how well the .410 patterns in a 20 gauge with an adapter?

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## Thaddius Bickerton

For the way I go about woods loafing, I don't much really have to have a firearm.  I take a handgun everywhere, and usually a rifle of some type, not because I expect to use it but because I enjoy firearms.

usually I carry a ruger gunsite scout rifle in .308 with me.  Also a 1911 in .45acp  (why because a 1911 is a better for emergencies that a 911 dial a prayer  IMHO< YMMV)

Were I set on a foraging type backpack adventure, then either a .22LR or a 12 gauge NEF / other single barrel type shotgun would do the work I might want from a firearm for gathering game.

Small game I usually hang a few snares at the edge of some grassy place and then tromp through the other side and end up driving something into the snares.  While a nice rabbit stick will put them down, nothing wrong with having like a .22LR kit gun to put em down either.

While a shotty has heavy ammo, it is the one most flexable thing for all around foraging since it can take most any game you feel like shooting that you find assuming you bother to carry a mix of different shells from bird shot up thru buck n slug.

***

Now were we talking about a militia weapon, then it would be combat survival which isn't really a solo thing, and calls for different tools and depends on having a nice long military logistics tail to keep it feed and working.  Combat is not something anyone bent on survival should engage in.  It is highly unproductive, consumes resources at a fast huge pace, not easily if at all replaceable by individuals.  And in survival, even a small boo boo can end up with you dead from any number of complications.

***

So I guess my short answer (As if I ever could give one) would be for a general reccomendation, a 22LR that one can hit a nickle with at the max expected usage range, or a single barrel 12 gauge shotgun with a mix of shells it the one single most useful weapon for someone attempting to survive via firearm foraging, and also capable of limited use for defense such as against a feral dog or using slugs, pretty much any animal that might threaten one, up to charging deadly game animals.

***

From my perspective there is one first tool:  THE KNIFE.  Given anything that one can cut with, even a sharp rock, most other survival needs can be met.  The more you know and practice, the less you absolutely have to have with you to make out.  A good many years ago, I got to go on several trips that happened at university of wyoming (long story how I ended up out there for a time but I"ll save it for another day). 

Anyway those of us that went ended up calling them ABO walks since it was the archology / anthropology / history etc people who were wanting to see how indigenous people managed pre steel days.  They had brought in people who taught how to knap stone, make fire, and cordage and carry containers and what foods could be foraged.  Learning to eat stuff that might be unpleasant was interesting to say the least.

Being able to eat worms and bugs and such is not something I ever really enjoyed, but they can be a important survival source.  

One thing, a simple small trowel or shovel beats a digging stick all hollow, and will net you a lot more useful things than most firearms will for wilderness survival.

But the first tool is something to cut with.  A really good steel knife and means to sharpen it (Files are one thing I try to keep at least one of in every bag I own) is always the first tool in my book.

Ramble off

Thad

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## rickyp8888

Its what ever you have with you at the time. Mine would be my HandR 12ga pump for one reason that reason is it can kill a small bird or a deer 1 weapon multiple uses. Kind of like the Swiss Army knife of firearms.

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## postman

If I could only have one gun period it would be my H&R single shot 12 guage. It is in my opinion the most versitile gun there is.

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## rickyp8888

I agree with the 12ga part but the single shot part not so much lol

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## Dropy

Rossi Trifecta. IMHO, is arguably the perfect survival weapon. It gives you options. And if you pair it with a .357 (the .357 also takes .38's) you now have the option of fireing 5 popular calibers that are easy and failry inexpensive to obtain.

Think about it some.

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## Sourdough

> If I could only have one gun period it would be my H&R single shot 12 guage. It is in my opinion the most versitile gun there is.


That is what I just took to Kodiak Island, Alaska for a Kodiak Brown Bear Hunt. Seen 16 brown bears. Nice 13 day vacation.

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## Rick

And no pictures!

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## Sourdough

> And no pictures!


They are still in the camera. I don't know how to get them out.

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## hunter63

Tip it up-side down and shake.........maybe?

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## crashdive123

Take the card out of the camera and mail it to me.  I'll send it back after I download the pictures.

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## Sourdough

> Take the card out of the camera and mail it to me.  I'll send it back after I download the pictures.



That is a good idea, I should get another card thingie. I have someone coming in two weeks who can move them to the computer.

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## Winter

I better reread the regs, but I believe shotgun hunting bear is illegal in AK.

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## shiftyer1

I have kids,  my go to guns are...............most of them.  I do own several shotguns and lots of .22's,  I find them quite versatile.  Yes I have wished I had something bigger than a .22 but i've seldom had the same thought with a shotgun.  I trust buckshot up to bear and then I think a slug is the best bet.  You still have birdshot for little critters.  Keep in mind that ammo is heavy.  A varity of shotgun ammo isn't easy to pack.  

Was it me i'd rather have a full buttstock to make it versitile.  Thats just my preferance

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## Beans

[QUOTE=old fart;338259] i have a 12 gauge pump with a pistol grip and forarm QUOTE]
FWIW
BATF has ruled that is now a "pistol". the local shop has the BATF Dealers notice posted. To buy one is the same as buyng a handgun. therefore the ruling effects shipping, age of purchase,  State residency requirements for purchase, transportation state to state ETC.
The notice doesn't elimate or define if it has been converted or manufactured that way. the ruling is only for shotguns with only a pistol grip, does not include a shotgun that has a buttstock and a pistol grip. Barrel lengths still apply as far a shotgun goes. min 18 inches,

Local dealer asked a BATF agent  if this mean that if it comes with a pistol grip without a butt stock and is classified as a pistol  "can it have a barrel shorter then 18 inches?". Answer was "no" unless you get the approiate license/tax stamp.

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/Pisto...hotgunLike.pdf

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...tes-new-danger

http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.p...ld-know-about/

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## kyratshooter

As I read those links I see that the ATF has not changed the rules or their interpretation of the rules in any way.

The law has always been 18 inch barrel with length of 26 inches overall.  If the replacelent of the normal stock with a pistol grip takes the firearm to less than 26 inches overall it is outside the specs as it always has been.  

Less than 18 inch barrel has always been "any other weapon" territory and that is well known, but many forget about the 26inch overall length requirement.

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## ILLcUFirst

10/22 their light, accurate and high cap with stick mags. Just work on those double taps lol

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## Rick

Where's everyone going that they'll only have one gun? Did someone throw a party and not invite me?

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## Erwin Roach

dagger012.jpg I got a Rem. 597 22LR. a few years ago. There were some issues with this rifle but obviously the one i got worked like it should. I've had alot of 10/22's, it is a good rifle however an inch or two in barrel length makes a great difference in  sound and accuracy. After shooting it outa the box I liked what I had so I Erwinized it. Made a set of scope mounts for it, drilled and taped the receiver, put on a 3x9x40 mil.dot scope. The stock was composite that in the forearm sectioned off in the moulding process which makes it perfect for sealed plastic bags of extra ammo, fishing line/hooks, etc.

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## ViamFec

I'd say a good start might be:

.22lr rifle, perhaps bolt action
.30 cal type rifle, maybe a .308, 30-30 or even a 7.62 x 39 (I'd go with a .308)
12-gauge shotgun
handgun of common caliber such as 9mm

With these four firearms you can just about do 99% of whatever needs doing with a firearm

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## aflineman

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

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## Beans

> For me, for my needs it is the lightest firearm with the lightest cartridge that will put food into the camp pot. It must hit a nickle 99% of the time at 15 yards. In am not a tack driver.


I not exactly a Noobie, but I haven't the slightest idea how to cook that nickel after I hit it.   So here I sit with an open mind willing to learn something new.

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## Rick

Clean and boil in salted water. It's very high in nickel and copper. Add garlic if you choose.

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## crashdive123

They're not too bad lightly breaded either.

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## Wildthang

I think a 308 over 20 gauge over under would be as perfect as you could get for a one gun in the woods weapon! but that's just me :Smartass:

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## WoodsCustom

I have alway said, and will always stand fast behind the Remington 870 12 Gauge.

WC

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## kyratshooter

Lots of talk about what to go into a survival senerio carrying.  Espically since 99% of the people here have never been in a survival situation.  And since the situation has not been defined.  Is this long term wilderness, short term wilderness, long term social breakdown,  long term partial breakdown of society.

Why not look at what the folks that survived the last long term social and financial breakdown had when they EXITED the crisis?

I had a father-in-law, two grandfathers and one great-grandfather that survived the Great Depression by retreating to their farmsteads in rural areas.  Three were in Tennessee and one in southern Michigan.  

Oddly, all came out of the situation owing the same battery of weapons.  A repeating shotgun (two double barrels, one mod 97 Winchester and one model 12, all in 12 guage), a .22 rifle (oddly three chose Remington Bolt action repeaters and one a SS Winchester), a .38 spl revolver (2 S&W and 1 Iver Johnson) and a 1911 Colt.  There was not a single "hi-powered rifle" in any closet or behind any door in my extended family.  There was no big game in any of their areas and simply no reason to own one.

I remember that the big concern they always discussed was affordability and access to ammo.  You can not go into a long term situation and expect a couple of boxes of shells to do the job and "I'll trade for more latter".  They all talked about the trade manipulations they had to go through to get shells, often making two or three swaps to obtain what the retailer needed at that point in time (there was NO MONEY available).  We look at barter as a salvation and in the real world of stress not having acceptable currency is a pain.

Then the war hit!  My uncles constantly talked about having a farm covered up with game and not being able to buy ammo due to the war.

What you go in carrying is not relivent. What you come out the other side carrying is what counts.

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## jcullen24

I agree with sparky93, about survivor BOW instead of Gun.
My Bowtech Razor Edge.  I'll proboably be getting a recurve soon.
See my avatar.

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## kyratshooter

In my state we have a 14% hunting success rate for archers.

43% success rate for gun hunters.

Most bow hunters pride themselves on being more experienced woodsmen and changing to the bow because the gun got too easy, and only 14 out of 100 make a kill.

It ain't as easy as it looks on TV.

Now you know why the Indians changed over to the gun as soon as they could get their hands on them.

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## heysmithy

I remember a time when my brother wasn't providing like he should for his family, and he kept buying guns and ammo. And my dad said something wiser than I've ever seen on any survival or firearms forum about the subject. He said "There's no sense in that. A man needs one rifle and one shotgun."

Now, don't get me wrong. I own more than just a single rifle and shotgun. Or at least I used to before escaped circus monkeys stole and hid them all. My dad owns more than that as well. But I think once you have a high powered rifle and a 12 gauge, you reach a point of diminishing returns. I think if I lived in a more urban area, I'd add a CCP on top of those.

It kind of reminds me of that old saying: "Beware the man with only one gun. He probably knows how to use it."

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## hunter63

> I remember a time when my brother wasn't providing like he should for his family, and he kept buying guns and ammo. And my dad said something wiser than I've ever seen on any survival or firearms forum about the subject. He said "There's no sense in that. A man needs one rifle and one shotgun."
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong. I own more than just a single rifle and shotgun. Or at least I used to before escaped circus monkeys stole and hid them all. My dad owns more than that as well. But I think once you have a high powered rifle and a 12 gauge, you reach a point of diminishing returns. I think if I lived in a more urban area, I'd add a CCP on top of those.
> 
> It kind of reminds me of that old saying: "Beware the man with only one gun. He probably knows how to use it."


Shush, don't let DW hear ya.........and that's a whole 'nuther thread.....If you had only one gun.....?

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## kyratshooter

> Shush, don't let DW hear ya.........and that's a whole 'nuther thread.....If you had only one gun.....?


Yea, and we have not done our weekly thread on that one gun thing.  How can we be so remiss?

I got down to only three at one point in time.  Those three were not my actual choices, they were the ones with sentimental value, but fortunately they had practical sentimental value and served me well through that stressful time.

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## randyt

old Sylvan Hart always said a mountaineer needed to have at least ten firearms to be worth his salt, LOL.

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## hunter63

If I were to back track, stuff would leave in about the same order that it arrived, till all that was left was the .22 SS I started with at 11 years old (first purchase).

Gotta love that Sylvan Hart......

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## Winter

Sylvan Hart, eh? Nice wordplay.

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## randyt

Always got a hoot out of old Sylvan but he doesn't seem so old now days LOL.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...9108/index.htm

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## tsitenha

A .22lr over a 20ga Savage would be very adequate for me, unfortunately I don't have one ...YET
Almost can to own one but it was .22lr over .410ga.

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## Rick

Escaped circus monkeys? I'm writing that one down. If I ever acquire weapons or ammo again I'm hiding 'em when the circus comes to town. 

We buy guns because we want to buy guns. We don't have a practical need for any of them. At least most don't. We hunt because we want to hunt. It does put meat on the table and for a small percentage that might be a necessity but I suspect if most were honest it's not a requirement. It's just something we want to do. There is an argument for home security but most of us will never use a weapon to protect our home. You'd be money ahead for things to keep bad folks out instead of dealing with them once they are inside. We just like things that go boom. Me included.

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## Wildthang

Well I still think a .308 over a 410 or 20 gauge combo rifle would be the perfect one gun for the trail. he .308 would take care of wild bore, bears ( other than Grizzleys ), deer for food, and the shotgun could take small game for food. The .410's ammo would be lighter and easier to carry so that might be the better gauge for the shotgun chamber size.
I love .22 calibre rifles, but if you were anywhere that had dangerous game, the .308 would be much more effective.

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## tj922

22Lr for small game.357 for big game, and intruders. That about cover's it.

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## BrazilianSnowMan

Where I live there's no big predators (only long pork lol). A bolt action .22 with a sidearm same caliber would work. Another good combo is a lever action 38/357 with same caliber sixshooter. 
Good pot fillers and can be used for defense in a pinch.

Only one gun would be a bolt action 22.

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## ratshooter32

I think I could get by with my Marlin 1894 lever action in 357 mag. I have very light loads that would work fine for small game and of course full power loads that would be fine for deer at 100 yards or less. I reload and cast my own bullets and have lead, brass, powder and primers in large quantities stored up so I can make ammo for a long time.

I also have a Remington imported Baikel 22/410 combo gun that I like much better than the Savage 24 22 mag/20 ga I used to own. This is a russian made gun and like all russian made firearms it is built like a tank. It shough hold up well to rough use. Plus I reload for the 410 so ammo cost is not a problem like most folks mention. Being ablt to pair a shotgun with the 357 rifle would cover me for any situation I can imagine.

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## Rick

Except rats in the house. But judging from your name you probably know that. Welcome home. We have another rat shooter around here somewhere.

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## karatediver

Rats?  Them no good varmints I caught in my teenage daughter's room you mean?  Yea, shoot em all!

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## Rick

No. Those would be called moving targets.

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## tj922

> Except rats in the house. But judging from your name you probably know that. Welcome home. We have another rat shooter around here somewhere.


Pellet pistol for rats, and they are great for target practice, and a pellet gun hole is easier to fix. Little buggers get smart, and leave.

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## Daniel Nighteyes

> In my state we have a 14% hunting success rate for archers.
> 
> 43% success rate for gun hunters.
> 
> Most bow hunters pride themselves on being more experienced woodsmen and changing to the bow because the gun got too easy, and only 14 out of 100 make a kill.
> 
> It ain't as easy as it looks on TV.
> 
> Now you know why the Indians changed over to the gun as soon as they could get their hands on them.


Nope, that wasn't it.  However this changeover, my friend, is what led directly to their downfall.  But that's a topic for another day and another thread.

-- *Nighteyes* (Mississippi Choctaw)

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## Daniel Nighteyes

> Another good combo is a lever action 38/357 with same caliber sixshooter. 
> Good pot fillers and can be used for defense in a pinch.


Actually, that's my backup choice.  (Now, if someone would only make an effective semi-auto pistol in .30 carbine)

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## Daniel Nighteyes

> I think I could get by with my Marlin 1894 lever action in 357 mag. I have very light loads that would work fine for small game and of course full power loads that would be fine for deer at 100 yards or less. I reload and cast my own bullets and have lead, brass, powder and primers in large quantities stored up so I can make ammo for a long time.


A great carbine!  Now, if your rifle is one of the older Marlins with the Micro-Groove rifling, you might want to watch shooting unjacketed lead projectiles thru it.  The micro-groove rifling works great with jacketed rounds, but tears the heck outa lead-only rounds.  And guess where that torn-off lead winds up?  Yep, you got it.

I know 'cause I've got an older, micro-groove Marlin 1894C.  Wouldn't trade it for love nor money, but I have to be careful what I feed it.

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## ratshooter32

Danial my marlin has the ballard rifling in it. If you will check out www.leverguns.com you can find suggestions on shooting lead from you micro-groove barrel. Most of it is to use a larger than normal lead bullet that is very hard. The micro-groove barrels are slightly oversized. I can't prove it but I beleive marlin did this because the older 357 and 44 mag loads were loaded hotter that what you can buy today. So making the bores slightly oversized let them lower the pressure some what. Plus I bet they never saw the cowboy action shooting coming and never dreamed that anyone would want to mess with lead bullets. I had a Rossi 357 that wouldn't shoot lead bullets either. It would shoot a 3" open sighted group at 100 yards with jacketed bullets though.

The marlin I have will even shoot round ball loads into about a 1 to 1.5" group at 40 yards and would make a dandy small game load. I have been much more impressed by my 357 than the 44 mag rifle I have. I also was lucky enough to get one of the cowboy 32 mag marlins before they quit making them. I like the 357 the best out of all of them.

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## randyt

I don't reckon I need a gun that can be loaded on sunday and shot all week. All I need is my old combination gun. 12 gauge and 40 caliber.

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## karatediver

> Nope, that wasn't it.  However this changeover, my friend, is what led directly to their downfall.  But that's a topic for another day and another thread.
> 
> -- *Nighteyes* (Mississippi Choctaw)


I don't know why Native Americans made the switch but the advent of muzzle loading firearms in Europe brought along the extinction of the bow and arrow for warfare in spite of the higher volume of fire from bows and even better accuracy from the bow.  It was simply a matter of training costs.  It took many years and constant practice to train an archer and replacing them quickly was nearly impossible.  But any punk kid could be drilled in a couple of hours to be a decent shot in a rank of soldiers shooting volleys with a smoothbore musket.  Throw in some artillery to take out the lines of archers at a distance and suddenly it wasn't cost effective to employ the bow in your army anymore.

Thus replacements became the issue.  Same issue killed Sparta.  Their model was great at producing uber soldiers, it just couldn't replace them in large quantities in a short period of time.

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## kyratshooter

It was not quite that simple Ratdriver.  Tatics were still evolving and fireing drill was strict in the ranks.  The archers had a range/accuracy advantage for a long time.

It took 400 years for the gun to replace the bow in Europe.  The last organized use of archers in England being in their civil war in the decade of the 1640s.

By that time the Iroquois elders were already complaining because their young men had completely lost their flint knapping skills and some had never learned to hunt with a bow, making them dependent on the European trade system for supplies.

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## Rick

So I guess the Iroquois had juvenile delinquents way back then, too. Makes me feel better after having been called that so many times.

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## Daniel Nighteyes

> ... the Iroquois elders were already complaining because their young men had completely lost their flint knapping skills and some had never learned to hunt with a bow, making them dependent on the European trade system for supplies.


Well-said, *kyratshooter*!  That's it exactly!

-- *Nighteyes*

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## Daniel Nighteyes

> So I guess the Iroquois had juvenile delinquents way back then, too. Makes me feel better after having been called that so many times.


H-m-m-m-m-m...   [<Grin!>]

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## Simple Survivor

I'd vote Ruger's take down 10-22.  Or an AR 15, something like a varmiter.

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## old2531

so thats what happened  to the mossberg commando shotgun no one wants to own a gun they dont know is leagal or not

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## birdman6660

> I continue to quest for the perfect firearm for "ME". I just off'loaded $3,150.00 worth of surplus firearms at the last gunshow. I have no interest in defense from humans. I rarely see any now, and have never another human in the last 42 year when walking off the back of my property and into the wilderness.
> 
> For me, for my needs it is the lightest firearm with the lightest cartridge that will put food into the camp pot. It must hit a nickle 99% of the time at 15 yards. In am not a tack driver.


You live in my kinda area .. remote  !   with lots of easy hunting ... Cheers !

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## birdman6660

> I better reread the regs, but I believe shotgun hunting bear is illegal in AK.


are ya really gonna worry about regs in a survival situation ? .. Im sure not .. if im hungry and it moves on four legs .... it's dinner !

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## randyt

I've been pondering about a .17 hornet,a nice bolt action. I can hear myself now " yes dear it is costly but I'm in search of the ultimate survival rifle" LOL
Back to the 17 hornet, it's a reloading proposition for sure but a fella can only carry so much ammo at a time anyways.

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## 2dumb2kwit

> so thats what happened  to the mossberg commando shotgun no one wants to own a gun they dont know is leagal or not


 Nobody wants a shotgun that doesn't wear it's underwear.

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## Batch

> are ya really gonna worry about regs in a survival situation ? .. Im sure not .. if im hungry and it moves on four legs .... it's dinner !


Birdman, given your username I wouldn't have thought you would be adverse to eating critters with two legs. You an ornithologist? LOL 

Two legs, four legs, six legs, eight, no legs at all just put em on my plate! (sorry)

Somewhere in this thread someone said that they would only use a bow in heavy cover. Bearing in mind that arrows will deflect much more frequently and than a bullet and to a greater distance.

In the areas I hunt archery gives the best chance of seeing game before they feel the pressure. I rarely hunt general gun because that's when all the yahoos come out. I own 4 bows (3 recurves and and compound) and have a folding bow on the way.

Here is a youtube review of two of the type bows I ordered. The one I ordered is the goprimal.




At the end of the video I am the only one who winces at how disregarding this man is to the 4 razor sharp broad heads proximity to his bow strings and arm? Maybe that is why he drives his broadheads into the dirt at the beginning of the video.

I shoot my bows for fun also. I ordered this bow because it will take up less space than my take down recurve. Maybe, when we take a break in an oak hammock we could shoot grapefruits or oranges off the trees. That will depend on the chances or arrow recover though. Carbon arrows are not cheap!

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## hunter63

Yeah, well, I can say that in the year 3013, some archaeological dig is gonna conclude that a couple of massive battles were held in my favorite deer woods.....just by virtue of the amount of "Gamegetters 2117's scattered about with 4 bladed "Astro points" disappering in to thin air?

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## Batch

I hear you on that hunter. My brother loves teaching people how to shoot a recurve in camp. He always seems to grab my box of arrows though and picks a Saw Palmetto thicket for a back drop.

Last weekend in camp though we had a long camp area and so all arrows were recovered. The yankee "country boy" who so far hasn't had any impressive back country skills shot all arrows into a cube at 20 yards with a 45# recurve. Two of which were in the center black. Not bad for a guy that could even nock the arrow and rasberried his arm from over extension. LOL BTW, he was left handed shooting a right handed bow. I believe he was left eye dominate also. That was pretty damned impressive and his being a steel worker gives him some pretty good conditioning. 

First thing he did was draw the right handed bow back left handed empty and Sean told him if you dry fire that bow you own it. He said he always shot right handed bows left handed just like he shot right handed the .22 rifles he took all of his deer with over corn piles from his kitchen window as a kid.

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