# Survival > General Survival Discussion >  Best survival gun and type?

## Bdog

I would have to say a M-16 style rifle for woods and a Ak-47 for urban survival. M-16 better range for hunting wildlife. Ak-47 better urban gun for penetration and knockdown. BTW love the site.

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## Flavor Bear

In an urban survival situation, you need to take ammunition into consideration.
You might use it up defending yourself. Something for which ammo would be easier to find is better, like a hunting rifle or something at uses common ammo.

I'll always go with an AR-7 if I have a choice.

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## Jericho117

Damn, you guys are packing AK's and M-16's in the woods? I can see military-issued weapons in urban terrain, but in the woods? Oh well. Dude I would have a Barret 50. cal. or like Flavor Bear said, a hunting rifle. Ak-47 do have knock-down power but I avoid them, there cheap Soviet-made weapons that make you look like a terriosts lol. M-16 sometimes break down quickly, or i think that was just in Vietnam.

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## Bdog

Ya bro Ak-47 for hog hunting and a Bushmaster for deer and other wild game. If you had to just have one gun on you assault rifles are the best in my opinion. Ya the AK gives a negative feel but in a urban survival enviroment someone sees that gun and stays away. On the flip side a M-16 gives a good guy feel to it when PPl see it. Depends if your social or not lol.

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## Flavor Bear

I would think it would be better to not let anyone know you have a gun at all.

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## crashdive123

Welcome to the forum Bdog.  How 'bout heading over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself.  You can find it here http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...splay.php?f=14

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## Bdog

Thanks Crash I might just do that.

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## Jericho117

Yeah Ak-47's are the best in Urban enviroment when it comes to scaring the enemy. I hate when people cover there gun stock with bright colors or gold. It provides no tactical advantage what so ever. Yeah maybe in a gang fight.

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## Rick

Actually, we have a thread on survival guns. 

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...urvival+weapon

and several more as well.

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## klkak

I reckon if I'm ever in an urban survival situation and feel I need an automatic weapon I'll just shoot someone who has one with my old bolt action hunting rifle.

I dislike this kind of chat. I find it especially boring when folks talk about weapons they have never trained with.

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## Pict

Guns are for when you screw up.  Mac

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## Jericho117

Yeah I never shot guns before, but from what I have seen before is what I have based my opinion on. Im all primitive weapons.

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## Beo

The best survival gun is the that gets the job done for you, be it a .22 or friggn .50 cal :Big Grin:

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## Ole WV Coot

Now if I was home I would check the gun safe and try and decide which would be the most effective. One problem, while I was trying to decide I reckon it would be too late so I guess I would grab the first one I came across.

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## AdventureDoc

I have to preface with the fact that I have never needed or used a firearm in a "survival scenario" and feel quite lucky about that.  I do have some familiarity with firearms, primarily in remote areas and hunting.

I see a weapon as any other piece of equipment chosen for use in a potential "worst case scenario".  Criteria I look for in my gear include:

Familiarity-
you have to be able to fix, maintain and trouble shoot problems with this piece of equipment, better than anyone.  This potentially included fabrication of parts.  You should also be well versed with its use, in multiple environements and settings.  For example, I may have a really great, shiny item that will not work so well at night, in the rain, covered in mud and with hands numb from cold.

Use of consumables-
be it projectiles, cloth, meat or what ever this item uses...you will need to get more of the consumables, eventually.  I have a friend who drives a really nice, foreign car.  It broke down in a rural area and he couldn't get a very basic part to get him back on the road.  Finding that rare calibre round might get a little tough.

Durability-
it has gotta take some use, in a rough environement.

Redundency-
two is one, one is none.

Any other things people look for?

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## Beo

Straight up... the Potatoe Cannon is surely the best all around weapon  :Big Grin:

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## Rick

Well, nice post. I like your redundancy statement. I think I'll start using that one. 

Price is a consideration. I don't think you have to pay huge sums to acquire something good nor do you want to purchase the cheapest just because of the price.

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## AdventureDoc

awwww......shucks, thanks  :Smile: 

In truth, that is not my statement.  As with most everything I know, it is repeated from more proficient people than myself.  That "two is one, one is none" came from some friends in the Navy.  But it is a GREAT concept.

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## RobertRogers

Overall, just one rifle?

.22LR

Most game is small not large
Can carry alot of ammo
Inexpensive ammo
Easy to shoot even for small people
Low report - stealthier
most common caliber for resupply
list goes on...

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## Rick

As do the threads....... :Embarrassment:

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## trax

> I reckon if I'm ever in an urban survival situation and feel I need an automatic weapon I'll just shoot someone who has one with my old bolt action hunting rifle.
> 
> I dislike this kind of chat. I find it especially boring when folks talk about weapons they have never trained with.


Yep, that Alaskan fella said it all again, too right klkak.

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## Beo

No no I trained with the potatoe cannon for years, from ages 13 to 17 on and off and am fairly accurate with it. Other than that I agree.

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## Bdog

> I reckon if I'm ever in an urban survival situation and feel I need an automatic weapon I'll just shoot someone who has one with my old bolt action hunting rifle.
> 
> I dislike this kind of chat. I find it especially boring when folks talk about weapons they have never trained with.


Lol a 22 vs AK in urban enviroment only in a ambush. But first rule of urban combat travel with 5 or more. Course your 22 can take five ppl Im sure all with aks.Reality check plz.

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## dragonjimm

only problem w/ a potato gun is that if you use right guard as propellant they smell you be fore you can get a shot off......

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## Bdog

Now a potatoe gun owns all other weapons period.

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## AdventureDoc

I am one of the last people too claim "expert level" with something, but a potato gun...man, that is my bag, baby.

Primer/propellent/fuel source:  Aquanet hairspray (this cannot be substituted)

Ignition/firing:  charcoal grill electric ignition (push button type)

Barrel:  PVC of the smallest diameter to facilitate a good seal with the projectile/spud

You may be wondering where I did my "formal education in potato projectiles".  Fire department competitions.  We used to have potato gun contests, one station versus another...purely for accuracy and distance.  After a few years, we were putting an average, store bought spud into a 55 gallon drum from about 100-110 yards, frequently.  We also would knock the empty 55 gal drum over, when we hit it, most of the time.  I've got some pics of the "weapons" and they are being sent over.

In all seriousness, there is no way in HELL I would wanna get shot by one of those things.

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## klkak

> Lol a 22 vs AK in urban environment only in a ambush. But first rule of urban combat travel with 5 or more. Course your 22 can take five ppl I'm sure all with AKS.Reality check plz.


OK, Mr. Bdog. I did not say my *"Old bolt action hunting rifle"* was a .22!

Further more, I would not hesitate to say that I've probably killed more game with a .22lr then most people have with a centerfire.

Next; I am not a proponent of the "Spray and Pray" marksmanship program. One well placed shot from a .22lr is more deadly then a whole magazine full of 7.62x39.

Lastly; I did not say I could take out 5 AKS carrying urban Rambo's. I said *"I reckon if I'm ever in an urban survival situation and feel I need an automatic weapon I'll just shoot someone who has one with my old bolt action hunting rifle".*

As an afterthought. Until you have been on the delivery and receiving ends of a given weapons system you can not speak with authority or credibility on its merits whether good or bad.

Allow me to drop a quote.
"What the hell was that?"
"That is the AK-47 assault rifle. It makes a very distinctive sound when fired at you."

I only found that line slightly amusing. As less then 72 hours before I heard those words I had been on the receiving end of several AK-47's which I might add were hushed by a single .22 caliber rifle. a single GAU-5 fired 7 rounds and killed 6 "MEN". The 6 "MEN" fired almost 100 rounds.

I will say once more.

*I dislike this kind of chat. I find it especially boring when folks talk about weapons they have never trained with.*

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## klkak

Whew! I feel so much better now that I've gotten that off my chest.

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## Sourdough

klkak, are tour numbers down from the average of the last few years. The booking to go up to Knik Glacier...? Or is it to early to till....?

Motorhomes from America are rare sight here a bouts.

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## klkak

> klkak, are tour numbers down from the average of the last few years. The booking to go up to Knik Glacier...? Or is it to early to till....?
> 
> Motorhomes from America are rare sight here a bouts.


Our numbers are down. I'm hopeful it is just a slow start. The owners had to raise the prices because of the cost of fuel.

I too have seen a low number of motorhomes this year. I may have to get a 5 day a week job this winter if things don't pick up. :EEK!:  :Frown:

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## Bdog

Klkak well damn you know me. Wow you know my age. If I have been in the military. What weapons I have fired. Your a little arrogant sorry and if you dont like this kind of chat move along plz or go post about someone else you dont know and tell them how unexperienced they are lol.

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## Beo

Get'n kinda violent in here... I'm gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## klkak

> Klkak well damn you know me. Wow you know my age. If I have been in the military. What weapons I have fired. Your a little arrogant sorry and if you don't like this kind of chat move along plz or go post about someone else you don't know and tell them how unexperienced they are lol.


Don't forget who dogged who's post first. Oh and yes you are correct I am a little arrogant.




> Originally Posted by Bdog
> Lol a 22 vs AK in urban environment only in a ambush. But first rule of urban combat travel with 5 or more. Course your 22 can take five ppl I'm sure all with AK's.Reality check plz.


Now please go to the Introduction section and introduce yourself and tell us a little about yourself. Then we will all know what your experience level is.

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## AKS

> Lol a 22 vs AK in urban enviroment only in a ambush. But first rule of urban combat travel with 5 or more. Course your 22 can take five ppl Im sure all with aks.Reality check plz.


First, I hope klkak had a good reason for shooting the five people I was with and second, knowing him, I am pretty sure he could accomplish it with a .22

My favorite survival rifle would be klkak with his favorite rifle. :Wink:

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## Beo

Bdog, ooooooooooooooohhh that's so urban of you being from Gastonia a city in Gaston County in North Carolina with a total population of 68,964, ya sound like another suburban wanna be thug, not saying ya are... just sounds that way. Come on Klkak is right, shooting guns doesn't have all that much to do with survival, most Anericans do not tote a friggn gun everywhere they go... so in a survival situation their not going to have one. But most male americans do carry a knife, in fact our records show that 3 of every 7 males in america carries a knife of some type, so if it had been a group of five people walking around with big azz rambo knives and he had said "I'd stick them with my EK hunter then we would have something to talk about. Plus most of the people on here asking questions about guns are minors (no Teot not talking bout you bro, :Big Grin: ) so we kinda steer clear of that with kids. 
AKS... anytime your in a city and five johnny butterbutts are walking with AK-47 its a good reason to shoot them, well in my book anyway.  :Big Grin: 
Just my opinions. 
P.S. I am pro gun and a member of the NRA and don't have a problem with gun topics on this forum but they do get kinda old.

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## Rick

Beo - Hey, bro. 2 of 3 of every 7? (gets calculated whirring.) Ah, look, man. You melted my calculator! :Big Grin:

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## Beo

Oh yeah and if we say "Survival in Nam" or "Survival in Desert Storm" or in any war, then its *in my opinion* a different kinda of survival. Not taking anything away from any vet being that I am a vet of the Army myself *to me* it just a different kinda of survival. I am talking about an accident such as plane crash, sinking boat, lost in the deep forests-mountains-or jungles-or a snow storm. And urban survival.... pfffffffft what a friggn joke and I won't even go there.

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## Beo

My bad reading to many stat sheets with those tiny lil lines still in dot matrix print, I know my department is soooooooooooo cheap.
Fixed it.

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## Rick

Just pickin' on you a bit. :Big Grin:

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## AKS

> AKS... anytime your in a city and five johnny butterbutts are walking with AK-47 its a good reason to shoot them, well in my book anyway. [/COLOR]
> Just my opinions.


Good point...only he said, "Course your 22 can take five ppl Im sure all with aks"  That's me.  Don't know why he said it.  Maybe he doesn't like turtles. :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Beo

Can ya believe that its the year 2008 and a Law Enforcement Office still has a dot matrix printer!!! Man is my department cheap!

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## klkak

That is pretty sad. Is your unit a 2 hp. with spoke wheels?  :Big Grin:

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## klkak

AKS, Call me.

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## Gray Wolf

Some people here need to comprehend that there are 2 different mindsets when it comes to guns,
1) own a gun, know all about it, target shoot, go hunting.
2) given a gun, sent someplace where people are shooting back at you, trying their damnedest to kill you. 
Two different worlds. Everyone would like to think that they would hold up under those circumstances. Some do, some don't. I know there are a few here that know what I'm talking about.

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## Sam

why do so folks think that killing any thing not them is the path to salvation? If am alone or out numbered and see 5 guys with AK's I am not gonna be there long. when did killing people get so cool?

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## Gray Wolf

> why do so folks think that killing any thing not them is the path to salvation? If am alone or out numbered and see 5 guys with AK's I am not gonna be there long. when did killing people get so cool?


*It's NOT!*That's part of what I was trying to get across!

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## Bdog

Sorry I posted a question geez. Then was told by another poster that he hates my post and that Im a inexperienced person. Oh well laters.

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## h8mtv

Guns are very important in a true survival situation. If trained it will put more meat on the table than any trapper or fisherman consistently. Personally I'd opt for a Browning Buckmark with a 2x scope and a can if I could choose anything. You can easily store and transport copious amounts of 22lr. and you could feed yourself pretty well. With a can you can keep from startling other game as well and avoid attracting much attention. 

If I could have 2 I'd take a Buckmark carbine and pistol, both with cans, a 3-9x on the carbine. 

The Ak is a true engineering masterpiece. The ak74 is my favorite rifle. From a survival standpoint I think a smaller and quieter setup is preferable.

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## RBB

No expert with them, but I picked up a Chinese AK-47 a few years ago, new in the box.  I'd shot SKSs before and found them adequate, for what they are.   Noticed with the AK-47, I could hit what I was shooting at if I tapped three shots, but never with one shot.  May have been the ammo I was using (Czech Military).  This got me to wondering, so I set up a bench and sandbags and discovered that particular AK - with that particular ammo - gave me a pattern of approximately three feet at 30 yards - from a rest, using sandbags.

I'm sure there was some kind of glitch with this gun/ammo. And, they are very reliable.  Never had a misfire.  But with that kind of accuracy, I just haven't had much interest in them since.

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## Rick

Well, if I ever run into a Chinese soldier shooting an AK-47 with Czech ammo from a bench on a sandbag that puppy is mine! I'm pretty sure I can take him.

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## trax

> Well, if I ever run into a Chinese soldier shooting an AK-47 with Czech ammo from a bench on a sandbag that puppy is mine! I'm pretty sure I can take him.


You are quite possibly the only person in the world who would have thought to say that. It's what I admire about you, buddy.

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## FVR

Not another gun thread.

In a survival situation, whatever I can get my hands on.  He ll, bb gun or whatever.

I think many watch too much tv.  5 guys shooting ak's, hoss, if you are not dead, you have a few angels on your shoulders.

And ya better get the he ll out of dodge, FAST!


Movie time.

I can tell ya that I've killed more rabbits with a stickbow than most have with a shotgun.  Now, do I feel confident that I can take out a guy shooting at me with an ak, with my bow and arrow.

HE LL, NO.  YOU FREAK'N CRAZY, WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING, CAN I HAVE SOME?

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## Alpine_Sapper

> Sorry I posted a question geez. Then was told by another poster that he hates my post and that Im a inexperienced person. Oh well laters.


Don't sweat it bro. Some people forget what it was like to be young. They think everyone should have the same experiences and ideals that they carry, and if not they try to shove them down your throat. Just live your life and let that crap roll off your back. A lot of people will snap and snarl at you for no reason, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't soak up some of the experience and wisdom here. Besides, if someone doesn't like the gun thread, they can simply not read it. Obviously, there was some interest for there to be multiple posts about not having any interest, right? Either that, or there might possibly be some control issues there somewhere.

"I don't want to talk about this so you can't either." 

WTF ever.

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## Spartan82

for gods sake i know more about firearms than 7/8s of u. So let me tell u, long after the ammo dries up ill be standin on a hill with my KABAR and javelin

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## Alpine_Sapper

> for gods sake i know more about firearms than 7/8s of u. So let me tell u, long after the ammo dries up ill be standin on a hill with my KABAR and javelin


wah wah wah. sure you do.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## klkak

I like Icecream.

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## Sam

> I like Icecream.


lol.....what flavor, klkak?

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## Sam

> *It's NOT!*That's part of what I was trying to get across!


 that was my point as well  :Wink:

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## crashdive123

Ice cream is good.

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## Pict

...with sprinkles, I don't care what flavor it is as long as I get sprinkles.  Mac

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## Rick

What a really great thread! That's what I love about this place. Variety. :Big Grin:

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## Pict

OK, seriously, in a real life survival situation against a tank...  RPG or LAW?  Or would you go all bushcrafty and make a molotov?  Mac

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## Rick

Pict! What are we to do with you? Sticky bomb. Now, I know more about sticky bombs than 7/8s of you. So, yeah. Sticky bomb. 

I've always liked the Japanese approach of burying a 500 pound bomb in the road then running out and whacking the detonator with a hammer just as the tank passes by. :Wink:

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## crashdive123

> OK, seriously, in a real life survival situation against a tank...  RPG or LAW?  Or would you go all bushcrafty and make a molotov?  Mac


All good weapons to be sure Mac.  I think I woudl prefer the TOW. 

 From Wiki - "The BGM-71 TOW is a U.S. anti-tank guided missile. TOW stands for Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire-guided. The TOW was first produced in 1970 and is the most widely used anti-tank guided missile in the world. Current production TOWs can penetrate all currently known tank armor."

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## Rick

Crash! Stop with the toe jokes, okay? Dragonjimm broke his. Have some compassion.

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## crashdive123

:Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  I guess that 7/8's of the people on the forum would agree with that.

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## Pict

Look, I know I'm new here but when it comes to bushcraft solutions for improvised anti-armor weapons, I'm in that 1/8th if you know what I'm sayin'.

There's two attitudes to anti-armor weapons.  Those who wrap towels around their heads and look forward to the day and the rest who had a Panzerfaust shoved in their hands and an MP-40 shoved in their back.  I've never been either guy, but here's my opinion...

Mac

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## Beo

*Spartan82*, hope that was a joke, because i'm in the 7/8th that thinks your full of crap because you don't know what training any of us have had, that being said who cares what training anyone has with a gun, yeah yeah I know guns don't kill people people kill people... wrong!!!!!!!!!!! The bullet or projectile is what kills you the idiot that pulled the trigger set the actions in motion. And that being said I don't imply that to the military in a conflict, police action, firefight, war, or what ever you wanna call it. Now on to* Bdog*, bro don't sweat it you can ask any question on here about anything you want (except about me and an arrow in my booty... hint hint to Rick) as that is your right and I think you should ask what ever you want, I was as usual farting around... no I would never just open up on a group of people with AKs I'd beat feet outta there, call 911, think about the situation and regroup then watch the show as the police swoop into action.
In my line of work (most of you know what I do) I carry a S&W .40 everyday, train regularly with it and other weapons so my views are a little different from others and no I'm not in the military, personally I think there are too many guns floating around the U.S. than need be. Again remember these are just my views as a pro gun guy but more a pro knife guy than anything else.
Beo,

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## Pict

OK all joking aside, stay out of gunfights.  If you are doing everything right and applying all your other skills to avoiding it you stand a much better chance of survival.  The last thing you want is to feel overconfident because you are armed.  Keep in mind that guys with SEAL level training get shot by peasant soldiers and conscripts who just happened to be pointed in the right direction at the critical moment.  Training doesn't make you bulletproof.

Think more in terms of "which binoculars are best to take to a gunfight".  I have actually watched a gunfight through binoculars and it was much safer, I can assure you.  Mac

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## klkak

> lol.....what flavor, klkak?


Vanilla and Rocky road

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## Rick

(Queue theme song from a Fist Full of Dollars) 

I toss my serape over my shoulder leaving my gun hand free as the man at the other end of the street turns to face me. I pull a long slow draw from the cheap, rumpled cigar between my teeth. 

(Cough! Sputter! Hack!) Kings! Do over! Stupid cheap cigars. 

I have to be at my tailors at 1:30. Are we gonna do this gun fight or not? 

I'm dyin' over here (Cough! Hack!) okay? Give me a break.

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## klkak

> Think more in terms of "which binoculars are best to take to a gunfight". I have actually watched a gunfight through binoculars and it was much safer, I can assure you. Mac


Binoculars are very handy too. Personally I'm an 8x man. I know, I know; 10x gives you more magnification but it also gives me a headache. I have a pair of Pentex bino's now but am saving my money for a pair of Steiner Predator Pro's.

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## Gray Wolf

> but am saving my money for a pair of Steiner Predator Pro's.


The 10x40 or the 10X26? The 10x26 are light weight and don't fog up! And about $100 cheaper.

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## Ole WV Coot

I don't get a headache when the guns go bang, I am just too nervous to hold the 10X steady enough to see thru. Also have a tough time finding the gunfight again after pulling my head down. I remember those words I had burned into my little brain when my instructor told us we were going to learn how to save our a$$ from everything but a gun cause any idiot can pull a trigger. I had no trouble with knife defense, I just barfed on him. :EEK!:

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## Ole WV Coot

> OK, seriously, in a real life survival situation against a tank...  RPG or LAW?  Or would you go all bushcrafty and make a molotov?  Mac


Wasn't he a Russian ballet dancer ? If it's a thingy I think it is around here we save our bottles and take them back for a refill of the Nectar of the Gods. It beats nitro, get caught you can drink the evidence and in this state we are too poor to afford gasoline. :Big Grin:  And you people wonder why we drink. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Pict

10x now you're talking true life gunfight survival!  Coot, we pay $5.50 a gallon down here so don't be talkin' about how expensive its getting to make a molotov, compared to the price of your average black market RPG they're still the best deal running.

Sprinkles, lots of sprinkles.  Mac

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## crashdive123

RPG's, LAW's, Molotov's :EEK!: .........Mac, what is it you say you're teaching? :Big Grin:

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## klkak

Pict says he is a "Mercenary" oops, I mean "Missionary".

I guess if you read the Bible carefully enough. Mostly between the lines. Use some extreme imagination. It tells you how to make and use the most effective "Revolutionary" type weapon. (disclaimer; I don't personally believe this)

Or......,

He could be a U.S. Government Adviser.

Or......,

He is just a regular guy with a desire to teach the locals about his Faith and just happens to be Really really into wilderness survival and the use of RPG's, LAW Rockets and Molotov cocktails.

Either way, He seems like a really nice guy.

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## crashdive123

Agreed.  I was just thinking about signing up. :Big Grin:

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## commoguy

> Pict! What are we to do with you? Sticky bomb. Now, I know more about sticky bombs than 7/8s of you. So, yeah. Sticky bomb. 
> 
> I've always liked the Japanese approach of burying a 500 pound bomb in the road then running out and whacking the detonator with a hammer just as the tank passes by.


so thats where the iraqis got that from lol i knew they couldnt possibly be as wiley as i thought they were

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## Pict

For the record I have never fired an RPG or LAW.  Full discolsure.  Don't make the mistake of taking me too seriously in this thread.  Mac

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## Rick

Never underestimate the extent to which someone will go to protect their home or their religion.

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## Pict

Rick,

While I agree with you on that I sincerely believe the faith will go on and actually gets stronger under persecution.  That said, if people are ever going to be rounded up into cattle cars for their faith (whatever it may be) you could count me in the group that doesn't roll over and say mooo.  Mac

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## Rick

Ditto, my friend. Both on the belief and being led to the...well, you know.

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## crashdive123

Mac - nah - not taking you serious, well except for those fine videos and pics you've been posting.

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## klkak

Mac, I don't think you are some sort of maniac preparing for the next world war. I respect what you are doing down there and your video's are informative. I would enjoy spending time with you talking faith and survival / bushcraft.

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## Pict

klkak,

PM sent.  Back in 2004 I got to go to AK.  I have family near Anchorage.  Alaska is too cool for words, no pun intended.   Mac

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## klkak

> klkak,
> 
> PM sent.  Back in 2004 I got to go to AK.  I have family near Anchorage.  Alaska is too cool for words, no pun intended.   Mac


lol, Well if you ever feel you need to cool off again let me know. There is this village up on the slope that would be perfect for a person of your skill and character.  :Big Grin:

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## dragonjimm

I personally dont own a pistol. i did qualify with them in the military but never enough to consider myself proficient. 
the best side arm is a 20ga pump youth model  full stock. 

vanilla,  

My MOS was 19 kilo meaning M1A1 Abrams crewman so i'm fairly qualified to say it doesnt take much to knock out a tank, go for the engine its the least armored and easiest to get to.

and if i think Pict could find students no matter the outside temp but i'd be more inclined to attend if its at least in the positives by several numbers.

my toe is feeling much better thank you.. :Smile: 


and i've got a 15lb beef brisket on the smoker :Stick Out Tongue:

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## klkak

I got to ride as a crew member in an Abrams once. I even got to load, aim and fire the main gun. 120,000 lbs. of rolling thunder. After words I watch as the crew fired at a target while doing 30 or 40 mph. They fired 3 shots and hit the target 3 times. I'm just guessing but the range looked like at least a couple thousand meters.

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## dragonjimm

i think max is 4000 -6000 meters but most shots will be under 3000 and less then 200 the muzzle blast gets em

when i was the loader i could consistently load 8 rounds a minute of 120mm. course me and the gunner were likely to have a few words afterwards :Wink: 
cordite is a wonderful substitute for crack :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Rick

Dragonjimm - M1A1 huh? Sort of gives you a new found respect for the men that fought in an M3A1 doesn't it? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_tank

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## Ole WV Coot

> so thats where the iraqis got that from lol i knew they couldnt possibly be as wiley as i thought they were


Is that the same story I heard about the Iraqi instructor telling his troops as he held the hammer QUOTE: Ima only gonna show you thisa one a time ! ! ! :EEK!:  I also heard they need instructors kinda bad.

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## Pict

Come on Coot, everyone knows you practice this using a rubber mallet.  Mac

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## dragonjimm

yep or anything previous to the abrahms those guys in the shermans had it rough. the 75mm guns couldnt even punch through tiger armor. i have seen some pictures of a tiger tank with five depressions on the front slope from 75mm guns. nasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I

although the M60A3 tanks are still proving themselves battle worthy. some are still in iraq and the marines used them during desert storm.

m48's are still working in several  countries with some modern upgrades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M48_Patton#Variants

and half the world is using the M113 in some variant or another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113


nothing beats cruising down the interstate at about 70 plus mph grinning like a mule in the rose bushes. :Big Grin: 
or 28 hour shifts on the range in the cold and rain.
or maneuvers in ft polk la in that lovely sumer time weather they have.

any body else here from around birmingham remember the veterans day parade after  desert storm i was in one of the tanks during burn outs at the itersections :Big Grin:

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## dragonjimm

is there any thing wikipedia doesnt cover....hmmmmm

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## Rick

I have a picture somewhere of four or five dud 88s that hit the turret on a Sherman. They are sticking half way inside the turret. 

The only advantage the Sherman had on the Tigers was speed. Not only could the 88 far outreach the 75mm on the M4 but every time the Sherman fired it was engulfed in smoke and they couldn't see the enemy. It was early '45 before they started getting smokeless munitions. As odd as it sounds, the U.S. didn't use cordite in WWII. 

The M10, on the other hand, was pretty handy to have around with its 96 mm gun. Once they field rigged a cover for the turret they had a pretty good vehicle.

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## Sourdough

Eight years from now someone is going to do a search for O'say, "Best survival firearm and type". He is going to say, Wow those guys really, really had BIG survival firearms, Surely they lived through TEOTWAWKI. Sherman Tanks, Tigers, Abrams...... :EEK!:

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## Rick

And Spud thinks his itty .50 cal is protection enough. Pfffft.

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## countybob

the best survival weapon to have is, in my opinion something to dependably take small game. if you know you are out gunned by the two legged predators you wont get cocky! the best way to survive an armed confrontation is to avoid it in the first place! by the way dragonjimm is the quote at the end of your posts from my favorite author, heinlein? i wonder how many here have read tunnel in the sky....great book!                 countybob

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## sobeit

This is just my thoughts but to me it should end the discussion of what is the best survival gun. One you can use and shoot actuary

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## crashdive123

...so I was out clearing firing lanes for the 50 cal today......

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## dragonjimm

@countrybob  yep and i've read all his books.

somoe of us have moved beyond the 50 to a more concealable gun :Big Grin: 

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## Eagles Talon

For me in an urban envronment it would probably be, a SIG 552 Commando, has a higher stopping power than the AK-47 and decent range.

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