# Survival > Survival Kits & Survival Products >  My pet peeve

## ScopedIn

Ok, so here's one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to survival kits.   VISIBILITY!

Now, you're probably wondering why I have such a big pet peeves with this. Let me explain.

First of all, let me start by saying that I feel there is a difference between a survival kit and an emergency kit. An emergency kit is for those times when something happens and you have to be rescued, in the worst case. A survival kit is for when you may end up stuck and unable to make it back to civilization in a timely manner. For example, you wouldn't use a survival kit in a city during/after a sudden disaster like an earthquake, there are places to go for food and water and shelter that will be set up as a response to said disaster. This is where an emergency kit comes into play, having a flashlight and some snacks, some water and a medkit to name a few things. This is not a survival kit.

A survival kit will have, if assembled correctly, everything you need to survive a minimum of 72 hours outdoors in the wilderness. Perhaps you go hiking and realize, you are several miles from your starting point with no clear trail back marked and you won't have enough sunlight to return before dark. It may only be for the night, but that survival kit in your pack has everything to make your night semi comfortable. You will have fire, clean water, a shelter, and food. You don't need rescued so the need for high visibility items are not important.

So, why is it that so often I hear people say to get a bright colored pack, or some other form of high visibility gear? Now I'm not saying you shouldn't have something that is high-vis, just that not everything should be. I have a signal mirror in my kit, a high-vis orange mylar blanket with silver lining, a flashlight, and chem lights as well. But that is all for attention getting. Anything else high-vis orange is for my own benefit, like my ferro rod and striker having orange handles so I don't easily lose them if I drop them.

Now obviously, I'm not hating on those who are gonna carry a high-vis orange pack, or other color, in a survival situation. But my survival kit isn't just for a walk in the woods, for that I have a small belt pouch that carries all of my basic needs, not including food and water. Obviously if I'm out hiking, I will have some snacks and water with me, but I have a small fishing kit in my belt pouch as well as trapping tools like snare wire and mouse traps. I also don't don't call this my survival kit, it is simply call my belt kit and stays in my car when I'm not out and about in the woods. My survival kit, the whole 9 yards, sits in my bedroom at home next to my bed within arms reach at all times. It has everything in it I would need for long term survival, to me that's 30+ days. It also doubles as my INCH bag, hence it is geared up for long term survival. It is set up so that I can leave home in case of societal collapse and keep a low profile away from other people and not be found. If I'm carrying and displaying unnatural colors in the woods, it would be easy to spot me, something I don't want as I travel or set up camp.

Anyone else feel this way or have a similar peeve? I know I can't be alone in this. But again, this is just my opinion, not so much a rant or anything.

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## kyratshooter

It all depends on if you consider wilderness survival a condition where you are awaiting rescue by search and rescue units, or a chance to run off to the woods and play "ninja boy scout" on an escape and evasion training session.

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## Rick

I would say your odds of needing SAR are far greater than your need to run away from home forever. And as for places to go for food and water after a disaster, you might ask those folks that survived Katrina about that. Better still, ask those that didn't survive Katrina because they didn't have clean water or food. Most of my bags happen to be camo and black just because they were cheap military surplus. But I do have high visibility markers so I can be found. SAR is my first concern. Just my humble opinion.

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## ScopedIn

kyratshooter, E&E training is a fair point, but if I'm awaiting SAR it's because I've sustained a serious injury and cannot make it out on my own. I don't wilderness survival a SAR condition unless considering serious injury. If you have the means and the ability to survive and make it out on your own then that's what you should do. Relying on other people isn't always your best option.

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## ScopedIn

> I would say your odds of needing SAR are far greater than your need to run away from home forever. And as for places to go for food and water after a disaster, you might ask those folks that survived Katrina about that. Better still, ask those that didn't survive Katrina because they didn't have clean water or food. Most of my bags happen to be camo and black just because they were cheap military surplus. But I do have high visibility markers so I can be found. SAR is my first concern. Just my humble opinion.


I have high-vis items in case of a situation where I need rescued, example would be due to serious injury that would make it impossible to make it out on my own. I have had to, for lack of better phrase, bug out from home and stay in the woods for an extended period. That was when I first became interested in survival and made it a point to learn everything I could about gear and skills to make it. 

As for the disaster relief after Katrina, there was help. Knowing that they lived in an area not only prone to yearly flooding, but severe hurricanes as well, they should have had several days worth of bottled water stored to begin with. The same goes for a few days worth of canned foods. 

I live in an area where, short of being snowed in during winter and the rare and random tornado, we don't have many natural disaster potentials. Some severe thunderstorms that might knock out power and such, but that's really about all. Yet we still keep 2 or more cases of bottled water at home as well as several days worth of canned and dried foods in case of an emergency. It's about being prepared, nothing else. What happened to those after Katrina, a side from being stranded on their roofs due to the flooding, was their own fault for not having contingencies. Their deaths, the ones due to not having food and water, could have easily been prevented had they stocked supplies, which isn't even an emergency prep, it's just a plain old good idea. Not saying that I don't feel bad for those we lost, just that it was their own fault.

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## kyratshooter

Well, we have gone bouncing from urban disaster survival, which is not a wilderness experience, to the theory that anyone that has two legs and is uninjured should be able to save themselves.

There's a big problem here, that being that not everyone is as skilled, healthy, and immune to injury as you seem to be.

What if you are injured?  Does an injured person not deserve survival, rescue or continued life?  No one intends to get injured, and no one intends to need an orange pack or tarp or zombie green reflector tape, but stuff happens.

What about those that get turned around each year and have to be brought out by SAR, or their bodies brought out.  Many are experienced outdoorsmen who just stepped off the trail for a break and turned the wrong way.  Hundreds have to be guided out each year and many dead bodies left from the previous summer are found each autumn by hunters.

Here's a situation where a blaze orange rucksack hanging from a rope in a tree might have saved a life, since SAR teams were within 150 feet of her at least once.  Perhaps if she had been carrying an orange tent SAR helicopters would have spotted her and her bones would have been found before a year was past.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/27/u...ail-maine.html

As for the situation where you live, well we would not know about that, you have not informed us of state, region, or town where you are so we can not send 911 to rescue you.

As for my situation, we have floods, fires, and tornadoes, but our greatest long term danger is transient Yankees during the annual north south migration. (No offense intended Jim Glass, you are the Yankee exception)

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## Manwithnoname

You guys are bringing back memories of being in the USCG for 6yrs. Visibility is a very real factor. Our PFD'S were blaze orange with retroreflective tape all over them as were our mustang suits. In each one we carried pencil flares with a launcher, strobe light, signal mirror, survival knife and a whistle. Some would argue, "thats different you were on the ocean".  My answer to that, the wilderness is an ocean, just has trees, or mountains or whatever instead of waves.  The places I hunt and fish around here I know like the back of my hand and aren't so expansive those who would come searching wouldn't find me. If I were going somewhere new or way off the beaten path you can rest assured I would have visibility items with me to help me be found if I needed it.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

My BIL was on the West Bank during and after Katrina.  He stayed for two weeks.  Main mode of transportation was bicycles.  They had a generator in a blacked out room.  They blacked out any room that had a light.  They did not clear trees from the street and did not let anyone see them going to and from the house.  The looters were looting and the National Guard were rounding up and evacuating anyone they could catch (except the looters).  They had plenty of gas for the generator from the neighborhood.  He and his neighbor were the only people for three or four blocks in any direction.  The city water was never off (no one was using the water in the towers so they had plenty of potable water) and the land lines worked.  what finally did it for them was when all the freezers in the neighborhood started Popping open.  What looters, police, national guard, and a horrendous act of God could not do, the stench of rotting food accomplished.  They left when they could not take the smell any more.  

They did not go into that situation with any sort of preparedness at all except that they had a shotgun each and one of them had a generator.

Resourcefulness  and conservation of the resources at hand was all they had, and it worked.

Alan

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## ScopedIn

> Well, we have gone bouncing from urban disaster survival, which is not a wilderness experience, to the theory that anyone that has two legs and is uninjured should be able to save themselves.
> 
> There's a big problem here, that being that not everyone is as skilled, healthy, and immune to injury as you seem to be.
> 
> What if you are injured?  Does an injured person not deserve survival, rescue or continued life?  No one intends to get injured, and no one intends to need an orange pack or tarp or zombie green reflector tape, but stuff happens.
> 
> What about those that get turned around each year and have to be brought out by SAR, or their bodies brought out.  Many are experienced outdoorsmen who just stepped off the trail for a break and turned the wrong way.  Hundreds have to be guided out each year and many dead bodies left from the previous summer are found each autumn by hunters.
> 
> Here's a situation where a blaze orange rucksack hanging from a rope in a tree might have saved a life, since SAR teams were within 150 feet of her at least once.  Perhaps if she had been carrying an orange tent SAR helicopters would have spotted her and her bones would have been found before a year was past.
> ...


No, there was no bouncing. I stated two scenarios, an urban disaster where the necessity to be rescued is generally a must, and wilderness survival. And yes, I feel that if you are a healthy human being without injury, you should be able to get yourself out of the woods. Self reliance is a big part of survival, often times you may be alone so becoming used to relying on others can be detrimental.

I do seem to be immune to injury, to be honest. Over the years I have been on this Earth, I have done things that should have resulted in injuries such as broken hands, leg, tailbone, ribs, etc. But I have largely come out unscathed aside from a few minor scars here and there. Sickness is a different matter, as I've had colds and such, as well as bronchitis that had lasted nearly 6 months. But generally speaking, I have put my body through it's paces in many situations and haven't sustained serious injury. So yes, I am fairly resistant to injury it would seem.

Again, I'm not saying that one shouldn't carry items of high-vis colors, just that ones entire kit doesn't need to be so. I have stated that I carry a bright orange and reflective silver mylar blanket just for the need to signal a SAR crew if I should ever need them, as well as a signal mirror and wistle. I know SOS with a flashlight as well, though its the only Morse code I know.

As for those experienced woodsman who "step off the trail for a break" and get lost, well I'm certain carrying a compass would have served them very well at that time. At the beginning of your hike/excursion, you should take note of your directional heading, as well as every so often especially if you are making turns. I make it a habit to do so when I got out on hikes because I follow no set trail most of the time. It is, for me at least, how I keep navigation skill sharp. Even going a hundred yards off the trail, as long as your compass is correct then all you have to do is remember which way the trail was and go in that direction. Or, another method is to walk an ever widening circle until you either come across familiar landmarks or the trail itself. Another method is tree blazing, simply scrap bark off of a tree every few yards or so on both sides and you will have a marked path to follow back. These things are common sense, are they not?

As for where I live, suffice to say it is in the Northeast United States. I grew up in the South and miss it dearly, but things keep me in the colder states due to family and such. But regardless of where I live, I would have the appropriate preparations in case of common disasters in my area. Even so, having those stocks doesn't always mean you will survive a disaster in your area. 

Also, remember my original post stated that this was simply my opinion. I'm not a survivalist in the mind frame that I might need to get rescued so I need to sit tight in the woods and wait for help, my mind frame is that I may need to hit the woods for some reason and have to live the old ways. So, by reasoning the fact that most land now is either privately owned or state owned, I want to be as low on the radar as possible until such time as I need someone to find me.

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## ScopedIn

> If I were going somewhere new or way off the beaten path you can rest assured I would have visibility items with me to help me be found if I needed it.


This is very much my point, having high-vis items vs. having an entire bright orange kit. Having a method, or several, to signal with is a no brainier but there's no need to walk around like Ronald McDonald in full clown suit.

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## LowKey

Why do you care what color anyone else's pack is? 
Do what you like and let other people do their own thing.
I can think of a number of reasons to be using high-viz orange kits. We had them as kids on our first hikes so the 'rents could keep track of us on the trail, and I use one during deer hunting season because I live in a state where newb hunters can't tell the difference between someone out walking their large brown dog and a deer. If I'm going to a particular surf-casting spot, I bring one to carry my gear that I hang on my sandspike to keep the a$$holes in their big speedboats from roaring up into my fishing space. If I'm going for an overnight at that spot, I velcro on the reflector tape for the same reason.
Get over it.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

I usually use a silver Tundra Crew Mx 4x4 to pack my overnight stuff in.  It's High Vis, so I can find it if I wander off 100 yards or so.

Alan

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## Antonyraison

> Ok, so here's one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to survival kits.   VISIBILITY!
> 
> Now, you're probably wondering why I have such a big pet peeves with this. Let me explain.
> 
> First of all, let me start by saying that I feel there is a difference between a survival kit and an emergency kit. An emergency kit is for those times when something happens and you have to be rescued, in the worst case. A survival kit is for when you may end up stuck and unable to make it back to civilization in a timely manner. For example, you wouldn't use a survival kit in a city during/after a sudden disaster like an earthquake, there are places to go for food and water and shelter that will be set up as a response to said disaster. This is where an emergency kit comes into play, having a flashlight and some snacks, some water and a medkit to name a few things. This is not a survival kit.
> 
> A survival kit will have, if assembled correctly, everything you need to survive a minimum of 72 hours outdoors in the wilderness. Perhaps you go hiking and realize, you are several miles from your starting point with no clear trail back marked and you won't have enough sunlight to return before dark. It may only be for the night, but that survival kit in your pack has everything to make your night semi comfortable. You will have fire, clean water, a shelter, and food. You don't need rescued so the need for high visibility items are not important.
> 
> So, why is it that so often I hear people say to get a bright colored pack, or some other form of high visibility gear? Now I'm not saying you shouldn't have something that is high-vis, just that not everything should be. I have a signal mirror in my kit, a high-vis orange mylar blanket with silver lining, a flashlight, and chem lights as well. But that is all for attention getting. Anything else high-vis orange is for my own benefit, like my ferro rod and striker having orange handles so I don't easily lose them if I drop them.
> ...


Well You thinking about only 1 maybe one possible senario
that well you want to go into the bush Live and survive and escape and evade (societal collapse, and be seen when you want to be seen)
This is  not always the Case.
in a survival situation you may find your self marooned in the wilderness so then Well your ultimate end goal is to Either A walk out the Situation, or B Rescue. 
Hiving high vis is going to help the rescue of yourself more so than blending in.

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## Antonyraison

Another note I think you not thinking on the issues broadly...
Urban Survival and wilderness survival and emergency preparedness.
All under "Survival" but some what different
each having their own well identified risks and preparations for the  possible eventualities.

The possible likely risks needing to be assessed and prepared  for
So really its Risk mitigation and packing of kit for those defined risks.

So whether the possible likely scenario is an societal collapse due to war, political unrest etc etc.. those in any scenario maybe an escape and evade scenario (when Its urban its grey man type stuff etc) when its in the bush its similar.

Natural distaster and lost hiker in the woods type thing well then the ability to be seen will be more paramount than not being seen.
Regardless of all this a kit needs to be tailored to you and your risks and skill set etc.
Just because one kit over another may strike you as something stupid, it may not really be..

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## Antonyraison

> No, there was no bouncing. I stated two scenarios, an urban disaster where the necessity to be rescued is generally a must, and wilderness survival. And yes, I feel that if you are a healthy human being without injury, you should be able to get yourself out of the woods. Self reliance is a big part of survival, often times you may be alone so becoming used to relying on others can be detrimental.
> 
> I do seem to be immune to injury, to be honest. Over the years I have been on this Earth, I have done things that should have resulted in injuries such as broken hands, leg, tailbone, ribs, etc. But I have largely come out unscathed aside from a few minor scars here and there. Sickness is a different matter, as I've had colds and such, as well as bronchitis that had lasted nearly 6 months. But generally speaking, I have put my body through it's paces in many situations and haven't sustained serious injury. So yes, I am fairly resistant to injury it would seem.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that one shouldn't carry items of high-vis colors, just that ones entire kit doesn't need to be so. I have stated that I carry a bright orange and reflective silver mylar blanket just for the need to signal a SAR crew if I should ever need them, as well as a signal mirror and wistle. I know SOS with a flashlight as well, though its the only Morse code I know.
> 
> As for those experienced woodsman who "step off the trail for a break" and get lost, well I'm certain carrying a compass would have served them very well at that time. At the beginning of your hike/excursion, you should take note of your directional heading, as well as every so often especially if you are making turns. I make it a habit to do so when I got out on hikes because I follow no set trail most of the time. It is, for me at least, how I keep navigation skill sharp. Even going a hundred yards off the trail, as long as your compass is correct then all you have to do is remember which way the trail was and go in that direction. Or, another method is to walk an ever widening circle until you either come across familiar landmarks or the trail itself. Another method is tree blazing, simply scrap bark off of a tree every few yards or so on both sides and you will have a marked path to follow back. These things are common sense, are they not?
> 
> As for where I live, suffice to say it is in the Northeast United States. I grew up in the South and miss it dearly, but things keep me in the colder states due to family and such. But regardless of where I live, I would have the appropriate preparations in case of common disasters in my area. Even so, having those stocks doesn't always mean you will survive a disaster in your area. 
> ...


"die man van staal" hahah the man of steel (translated from Afrikaans to english)

hahahah well then you either Young or lucky.
Injuries catch up to you.
Broken leg
broken arm
broken foot
tears in patella tendon
Cartledge damage
etc etc etc etc,   They all add up, repetitive stress injuries, some are well bearable and well heal, some take many many many years, the older you get the worse this is.
Dont worry I had a belief I was indestructible also (when I was like umm 15?)

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## ScopedIn

> "die man van staal" hahah the man of steel (translated from Afrikaans to english)
> 
> hahahah well then you either Young or lucky.
> Injuries catch up to you.
> Broken leg
> broken arm
> broken foot
> tears in patella tendon
> Cartledge damage
> ...


Compared to many on here, I am young. I'm 26 years old and have never sustained a serious injury. Now that's not to say I haven't injured myself, I have some minor back problems due to twisting my back when I was like 16. I also lacerated my shin due to a machete incident when I was like 18, didn't need stitches or anything but I was out in the woods. I do have proper first aid and CPR training from Red Cross back when I worked as a life guard. I wouldn't attribute my lack of injury to being young, there may have been luck involved though. I'm not saying I'm indestructible, I know I'm not, but it would seem injury is not often a thing I must worry about.

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## madmax

Nobody wants to hear my laundry list of broken body parts.  But I will say that this 60 yo ain't humpin' $hir into the woods come SHTF.  Truck, canoe, or preferably bug in.

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## ScopedIn

> Nobody wants to hear my laundry list of broken body parts.  But I will say that this 60 yo ain't humpin' $hir into the woods come SHTF.  Truck, canoe, or preferably bug in.


60? That's a ripe young man, but I don't blame ya for wanting an alternate mode of transportation. If I had my way, I'd have a nice high ride Jon boat that could take shallow creeks. A small motor and an electric trolling motor with a solar panel for charging the battery. Granted, gas would run out after a bit and the trolling motor would be slow going but I'd have oars as well which is a good workout in itself. If I was on my own, I would take a traditional canoe instead.

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## Rick

Front porch, popcorn, softdrink. I'll watch the drama unfold. Once everyone beats, stabs, shoots, clubs, and otherwise does nasty things to each other then I'll drive along and pick up stuff that interests me and toss it in the back of the truck. It will be like harvest time on the prairie. If I find a dead 26 year old with a primo pack I'll know who that is.  :Thumbup1:

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## ScopedIn

> Front porch, popcorn, softdrink. I'll watch the drama unfold. Once everyone beats, stabs, shoots, clubs, and otherwise does nasty things to each other then I'll drive along and pick up stuff that interests me and toss it in the back of the truck. It will be like harvest time on the prairie. If I find a dead 26 year old with a primo pack I'll know who that is.


Lmao. Won't find me on the prairie Rick. I stick to the mountains, swamps, and backwoods. Those are places I call home.

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## Batch

While the average North American that finds themselves in a "wilderness survival" situation will want to be seen by rescuers. A hiker in a multi-use area might need to use high visibility to alert hunters to their presents. An orange vest hidden under a camo pack might not get the job done. 

Most of my packs are Camo, black, or coyote. But, my bushcraft pack is grey and black. That is the pack I am most likely to have on in the woods. The other packs for the woods are hunting packs. I have one for archery, muzzle loader, general gun and ducks. I only wear those when I am hunting and all are camo. The coyote is a sort of general camp pack that usually stays in camp. And I have a black urban type back pack that I use as my range bag for pistols. Because it doesn't scream gun.

A very simple solution to your pet peeve is to throw a high-viz backpack cover in each pack. I keep certain items in every pack. And at less than $10 each, it is cheap insurance https://www.amazon.com/Reflective-Ru.../dp/B06XGXYC1R. I wrap the game in high viz vest, my self in a high viz vest and my pack in high viz. Because people do get shoot dragging or carrying game out down here. 

Also, a lot of are overly confident in their skills and get lost. 

There are many books and shows that illustrate the need to be able to signal and be seen. So many people say they saw and heard rescuers or planes or ships or helicopters. But, for rescue to work, the rescuer must see or hear you. And trust me many of those people would have built a signal fire if that was an option.  You have to remember your not in a situation in which you might very well die (survival situation) because everything went your way. You are in a survival situation because Mr. Murphy is kicking your *** at every turn and a perfect storm if shift is hitting the fan. 

There are thousands of people who wished to be seen and rescued for every one that wished to evade someone.

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## ScopedIn

> While the average North American that finds themselves in a "wilderness survival" situation will want to be seen by rescuers. A hiker in a multi-use area might need to use high visibility to alert hunters to their presents. An orange vest hidden under a camo pack might not get the job done. 
> 
> Most of my packs are Camo, black, or coyote. But, my bushcraft pack is grey and black. That is the pack I am most likely to have on in the woods. The other packs for the woods are hunting packs. I have one for archery, muzzle loader, general gun and ducks. I only wear those when I am hunting and all are camo. The coyote is a sort of general camp pack that usually stays in camp. And I have a black urban type back pack that I use as my range bag for pistols. Because it doesn't scream gun.
> 
> A very simple solution to your pet peeve is to throw a high-viz backpack cover in each pack. I keep certain items in every pack. And at less than $10 each, it is cheap insurance https://www.amazon.com/Reflective-Ru.../dp/B06XGXYC1R. I wrap the game in high viz vest, my self in a high viz vest and my pack in high viz. Because people do get shoot dragging or carrying game out down here. 
> 
> Also, a lot of are overly confident in their skills and get lost. 
> 
> There are many books and shows that illustrate the need to be able to signal and be seen. So many people say they saw and heard rescuers or planes or ships or helicopters. But, for rescue to work, the rescuer must see or hear you. And trust me many of those people would have built a signal fire if that was an option.  You have to remember your not in a situation in which you might very well die (survival situation) because everything went your way. You are in a survival situation because Mr. Murphy is kicking your *** at every turn and a perfect storm if shift is hitting the fan. 
> ...


Ah, you make very good points. But the differences are; 1. I'm not talking about hikers or hunters. 2. I don't need rescued unless accounting for serious bodily harm.

Now, with that being said. Again, I never made the point of not carrying items for signaling as it is a means of general communication if you have a group. I have three ways to signal in my pack; a signal mirror, a whistle, and a bright orange and reflective mylar blanket.

Now assuming that I am in a situation where I am in the wild, at least 5 days walk from any person, and I have my survival kit with me. Based on just the outlined situation, not only could I make that five day journey, I would be comfortable doing to the point I may just make it a camping trip of sorts. That is to say, if Murphy's law doesn't rear it's ugly head at me. But, short of an NBC attack, I have all the items needed to maintain a basic comfort level in said situation. See, while I do have confidence in my skills, I have a strange knack for not getting lost. That is, I seem to always find my way. Example being, I used to live in New Mexico where just about everything looks alike. I found myself one day walking without a bit of knowledge as to where the mall was and hiked several miles with just two 2 liters of water and a music player. I found my way to the mall just by following my instincts. That was back in 2007 before I became really ingrained in the culture of being a survivalist.

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## kyratshooter

The next time I get lost on the way to the mall I will call you.

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## Antonyraison

those darn malls are so hard to find.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Hell, I've been lost IN the mall.  Thank God I finally found the food court.

Alan

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## Rick

I've never been lost in my house but I will admit to being turned around a time or two.

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## Antonyraison

I get lost in open plan kitchen but that is another story

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## Dunmaghlas

I agree about the visibility, mostly because I prep for long term urban survival and Detroit won't be fun when Rikers and whatnot can see me from a mile away. I'll stick to black for now, thanks.

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## LowKey

What's a Riker and why on earth would you stay in Detroit.
Heck, I'd have left years ago...

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

Rikers Island Prison Complex.  I guess he's going to make a run for it.

Alan

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## kyratshooter

Yes it does seem that some folk get their wilderness survival and their urban ****e-hole survival mixed up.

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## crashdive123

Rikers Prison is New York, not Michigan.  Maybe he's traveling.

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## Rick

I'm sort of concerned about the "whatnots" he mentioned. I know the "havenots" can be pretty dangerous in bad times but I know nothing about the "whatnots". (shaking head). Something else I probably have to plan for.

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## Alan R McDaniel Jr

"Whatnots" are the knots my sons used to tie when tying something down or when tying their tennis shoes.  Untying them usually involved a knife or hatchet.

Alan

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## Rick

Oh, good. I have a knife so I'm equipped as it were.

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## Antonyraison

> I agree about the visibility, mostly because I prep for long term urban survival and Detroit won't be fun when Rikers and whatnot can see me from a mile away. I'll stick to black for now, thanks.


Personally in SHTF and urban survival,
my goal would be to blend in as much as I can and not stick out like some taticool dude that has gear..
looking the part in an urban situation can be hazardous..
Wilderness survival on the other hand Would be nice to disappear if needed in a similar scenario(escape/evade).. but in terms for normal I just got lost in the bush Scenario then I would want to be very highly visible to effect a better rescue.. 
So yeah really depends on situation..

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